: sivir works due to her aoe damage... aka wave clear and having a spell shield makes her safe ... sivir with a {{item:3087}} can wave clear with the best of them... and if you are support ( when i have supported into the double ap bot) i rushed {{item:3060}} into them and push the wave back at them .... but last time i play cait into ziggs i went 20-7-14 won game build was {{item:3031}} {{item:3085}} {{item:3156}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3046}}
Yeah, i'd like to highlight {{item:3060}} . This thing is godly if enemy bot happens to be double AP and you have tank supp.
: Neither does Edge of Night
How come? Bubbling single Vel's ability makes him proc his passive later, thus reducing damage you take by a good margin. Bubbling E might make his combo fail and he ends up wasting abilities.
: It's generally less effective against him, yes, but it's pretty rare for him to pop you without going through the shield, and in most cases that he would, edge of night isn't going to help any better.
If Vel'koz deals takes you to 35% health, he's already channeling his ultimate and doing true damage which completely bypasses Maw's bubble. Many people forget that Vel's lazer is purely true damage if proc'd.
: Edge of Night doesn't protect from burst or give CDR. Maw does that and gives lifesteal.
That's true, however Maw doesn't work against {{champion:161}} for example
: Is it finally varus time to shine?
He's already contested pick in LCS tho
: Brand doesn't have 900 range
Q range: 1050 W range: 900 / 250 (so it can hit up to 1025 range) say what?
: actually caitlyn also works for all points but 1, 7 and a bit of 5 with the added bonus of having better burst and late game. Varus is better if you're really bent on shutting down a mage bot lane though. But Caitlyn works as a 'general' ADC that can do decently well against them
Thing is, Cait can't burst on demand. Enemy has to be CC'd or walk into trap for her to get her burst off, and she needs clear way for her E to work, whereas Varus can burst whenever he wants. Also, i think he can squeeze out slightly better DPS in late-game, however i see your point and i quite agree.
: A lot of your points are exaggerated, but I see your point. Varus deals extremely well with Mages due to his E, which inflicts grievous wounds, and as a result diminishes healing. Abusing Varus's E whenever mages use a Potion is a very good way to diminish a Mages laning phase. Lastly don't buy Maw of Malmortius on ADCs. You are better of taking {{item:3814}}, especially this coming patch. It grants a lot more damage, a free spell shield on VERY Short CD, and Lethality. Which despite it's meh state, functions well against squishies.
Depends on matchup, but yeah, {{item:3814}} is very good as well
ApexCH (NA)
: I have to disagree. I've been trying Varus in low diamond and hes 575 range with absolutely no mobility. This makes it easy for brand or any other AP champ to land skills on him. Even if you ult brand as varus, all he has to do is W you when you go to auto him because he can still do skills. I just dont think it's viable, Especially seein as how malzahar point and clicks on you everytime its off CD
Like, what? Why in the world would you walk up to Brand to AA him? Caitlyn has 650 range, Brand has 900 range anyways...
: i have just played cait... and rush {{item:3155}} 1st item then go into my core build of {{item:3031}} {{item:3085}} has worked vs ziggs every time but im pretty sure a {{champion:25}} {{champion:15}} bot lane would be really good vs them
Cait is fine, however her ability to waveclear and punish squishies isn't as good as Varus. If that Ziggs had half of his brain intact, he would just shove lane into your turret, so that you either waste all mana on Qs so you don't pose a threat OR he gets free turret damage and you miss CS. Sivir could work, but her range is abysmal
Dengeden (EUW)
1500 range buddy. No sane vel'koz ults at melee range
6Sfool (NA)
: I went from Doran's blade to cull because I could farm really well. And then I realized that doran's ring outshines both all around. I start w and just play passive until level 2 where I can spam q all day.
Dengeden (EUW)
: He takes abuse in lane, then screws them over in teamfights.
: Doran's Ring sounds like an interesting pick up for bot lane, certainly worth trying :P
It's really good on Varus. 50% extra base mana regen, 4 mana per CK (which you are getting anyways). HP is nice and AP helps as well. One point in W is very good, it utilizes his AP from doran's ring (+4 damage on hit), and gives him +10 magic damage on hit so he's really easy to CS with even without doran's blade.
Rioter Comments
Teklm (OCE)
: Janna Perpetually 54% Winrate
: The only reason I dont like them is that I can shut them down in lane hardcore, but they can still solokill my mid/adc even if they are very very behind.
Then is your mid/adc bad and they should feel bad.
: Thats the problem and the point of my comments. I'm starting to repeat myself here but Darius does it wayyy too perfectly. He is dealing fucktons of damage while being tanky and healing, and I think that he Is too strong with only ONE damage item. If he wants to deal up to 1000 true dmg in a single spell or have 300 ad he should give up some sustain for that, and not have both damage and sustain with some cc.
1. Want to crap on darius?{{champion:161}}
Dengeden (EUW)
: You're wrong about Mao's lack of pressure. And Braum counters poke comps.
Braum counters poke comps? He's downright terrible against Vel'koz or Brand supports who are poke centered champions
: Tanks are the healthiest class in LoL
Out of curiosity... does it feel fair and balanced when you, as tank, get caught by Vel'koz and you 3k hp and 200mr gets shredded in 2 seconds?
: lol where do you see that? i have a feeling you're making this up because whatever information you've given me has turned out to be misleading or flat out untrue
: > [{quoted}](name=Verdade,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cwkla4Rh,comment-id=001700010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T22:14:15.040+0000) > > Sample is good enough, i see 47k games on kog'maw for example. > > Which champion do you have in mid btw? > > Also, win rates are terrible measure of power, there is Ryze with 44% winrate despite being ridiculously powerful just because he's too hard to pick up. Then there is Janna who is piss weak yet has inflated winrate because she hardcounters Thresh (highest playrate support with low winrate) The samples cannot be accurate somehow, because I'm seeing only a few different skilling orders for each champion, what we get is that either that data isn't updated and thus calls into question ALL of the data. For this patch alone things seem off, 47k games of Kog in NA in Plat + since 7.1? I doubt it. To get a more accurate reflection of the number of games analyzed since 7.1 we see the number of boots bought on Kog, with 94% being Beserkers we see a bit under 800 games played on Kog in to assess the data. Since that is almost 100% of the boots bought out of games analyzed we can assume they have no more than 1k games of Kog in this patch. There are far more inconsistencies, suffice it to say, if you are going to use the data, understand how to analyze what you are seeing. As for my champion, a quick look at my match history would show you my champion of choice easily, and see that they have Yorick reported at below 45% win rate right now. If that's true, then out of the 30 or so games I've played in the past few days my data should be showing for skilling order, which is almost always maxing E first, because I play him differently, but they don't have that data, which would make up more than the number of games of any other skilling order. Thus the way they are assessing that skilling order is wrong, and they are not seeing my Plat + games on him for some reason. Incomplete data, skewing and messing up what is really going on. OP.GG is not getting all the data.
140k games on Yorick in last month (na, ranked, all elos), and he has 51%-ish win ratw
: 1. when was it confirmed by Riot? link me the confirmation and then I'll believe you. Why doesn't Riot just implement their own data website if its "closest site to their internal data"? 2. From that website, you can see exactly how many # of games Kog'Maw has been played: 1270 from plat +. Do you know how little 1270 is? Just in platinum alone there are 19420 caitlyn games. the data on her are reliable because of how large the sample size is. 3 & 4. so you're saying that before rework he was a hyper carry, but somehow magically after his rework he lost his hypercarry abilities? pre 5.22 and post 6.18 kog'maw had 2 changes. his ult and mana cost on his W. NOTHING CHANGED. he is still a hyper carry. the only thing that changed, as i've said before, is that triforce doesn't have crit and doesn't help him scale. triforce is a midgame item which helped kog'maw get to midgame (gave him health, MS, and mana) 5. BoRK has been used on kog'maw pre 5.22 because of the attack speed that synergizes with his W. his W is the reason why he is late game since it does the most damage at late game when everyone is 18 and has max health/health items 6. i've already explained why he is late game. 7. kog'maw's kit certainly doesn't dip into other ADCs classes. vayne is a better tank killer, corki has better mixed dmg, twitch/ashe/cait have better dps, ashe/varus have better utility (kog E), and ezreal has better poke. nearly every ADCs have better mobility (excluding urgot since he's no longer botlane)
: > [{quoted}](name=Verdade,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cwkla4Rh,comment-id=0017000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T19:37:05.139+0000) > > 1. OP GG is most reliable site, as was comfirmed by rito. There was red post that said Op.gg is the closest site to their internal data. Man I would hope that's true, because then they can see that a few of my favorite champions really need some buffs, I see some champs sporting sub 45% win rates. Unfortunately I really doubt op.gg is that reliable at all, given that the data I've seen compared to others has shown me a consistent representation while only OP.GG has been so vastly different, the data is very likely off, seems highly unlikely that they would have that same sub 45% win rate champion on OP.GG being over 50% on every other site and those actually be wrong (especially when I play that sub 45% win rate champion with a win rate of over 54% myself). EDIT: Also, my win rate since 7.1 has been higher than 50% and my skilling order isn't even represented at all (and I have far more than the minimum number of games of any other skilling order), which means they are not seeing the data for all games by any means and I AM in platinum. Yeah, their data is wrong for NA.
Sample is good enough, i see 47k games on kog'maw for example. Which champion do you have in mid btw? Also, win rates are terrible measure of power, there is Ryze with 44% winrate despite being ridiculously powerful just because he's too hard to pick up. Then there is Janna who is piss weak yet has inflated winrate because she hardcounters Thresh (highest playrate support with low winrate)
: the "hyper carries" that you listen hardly rely on attack speed and more so on crit. caitlyn isn't weak early on and vayne/twitch spike mid game after they complete IE and 1 crit item so IDK what you're on about. also, websites like OP.gg and champion.gg are the WORST websites to gather data from because 1) limited resources 2) only in high elo which is plat+ 3) gather data only at the beginning of a patch which is generally when everythign still hasn't settled down. as for kog'maw, he is a late game hyper carry and has always been one. right now he's awful because he doesn't spike until his 3-4th item unlike caitlyn on her 2nd. you ever wonder why kog'maw, tristana, and kalista are in a horrible position right now? its because the game doesnt develop long enough for them to get the items they need. additionally, kog'maw doesn't have a set build as most ADCs do. want to know why? because of his changes and changes to items as opposed to s5, former items like triforce aren't good on him anymore. on-hit doesn't scale so he can't build rageblade and he has no synergy with crit besides his AS passive on his Q. he's just in a bad position right now so miss me with that bullshit graph data from unreliable websites and actually play the champion. champion.gg says he has a 55% win rate but are you really going to believe that? lmao ok
1. OP GG is most reliable site, as was comfirmed by rito. There was red post that said Op.gg is the closest site to their internal data. 2. Data was drawn from NA, all ranked matches and from whole last patchpatch, not current one. 3. Corki was hypercarry before his rework into machine gun. After his rework he became mid-game carry. 4. After his W revert people tried him as both hypercarry (AD/AS/CRIT) and midgame, and even pros agreed he's still better with on-hit. 5. Most used items on him are BORK, ruaan and rageblade. All three items are heavily focused on on-hit mechanics. 6. Just because he feels strong in late doesn't mean he's late-game champion. Most champions are strong in late, however only few of them are really ridiculous as hypercarries are. 7. Tristana and Varus suffer from entirely different problem - their kits dip into multiple ADC classes, so they are stuck somewhere in between and can't itemize properly.
: Except that vayne and twitch are doing completely find early one. In fact, kog is probably the most DPS oriented champion in the entire roster since he relies on his W. You certainly don't know what you're talking about and I advise you to actually play the champion.
http://i.imgur.com/lNwwHCl.png General knowledge man...
: To be fair, it would be a nightmare if Janna had not only items that provided huge healing and shielding, but also scaled off these items so that her E & R also gave huge amounts.
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: First of all, knock up is the most effective form of CC in the game, along with suppression. They both can't be reduced by tenacity, and knock up is even more effective since you can't effectively QSS / cleanse out of it. A 0.75 sec knock up is only on instant cast, where you do that to deny an enemy dash or catch someone with a flash. But you can just charge it up during the team fight and let it travel. People will get hit by it in the mess that's happening, and that's a 1.5 sec knock up, which is very strong. Yeah, her slow is indeed very strong. The cast range is decent, you can't miss it, since it's point and click, it lasts for 3 seconds and has a CD of 7 seconds (since you build 45% CDR pretty early too), and it's more than 40%. Since I build Janna at around 200 AP, the slow is 52%, which to me is very strong. If Nasus' slow is considered one of the strongest basic abilities in the game, then Janna's can't be that far behind, as far as MS slow goes. The E shield is super strong on a tank since it won't go away as fast and you don't really care about the AD your tank gets, really. Your adc can be protected and stay away and kite around, so the shield will hold. Even shieling a Jhin while he ults can give him a huge boost to his damage. And her mana costs are high, but her mana regen is also higher, so that's not a problem. Don't judge a champion by some Gold 2's guy win rate. And even if you do, let me tell you that 2 of these games, we had AFK's, another one I was match with a bronze 2 ADC who was playing his ADC for the first time. Also, last season, I was doing really well because I had a premade ADC, and I also play a lot more Janna on my smurf account, where I actually have a good win rate and KDA. But hey, Janna is one of the most solid and high win rate supports in Diamond+ for so long now, but she's useless as you say.
Janna's win rate goes actually against her. If you analyze her matches you'll see that it's artificially inflated by at least 5% because of 2 matchups: She synergises well with most played champion and counters second most played champion. She's gonna have extremely high win rate because of this, and it makes her win rate very sketchy measurement of her actual power.
: The thing is, he doesn't always push well. Late game he can but his identity is supposed to be a lane pusher all the time.
He's decent at pushing at any stage of the game, but his mid to late game is definitely stronger
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: Max HP% scaling on his damage is mid game? WutFace
Many champions have % hp scaling and yet they aren't late-game. Kog's core is BOTRK/Hurricane/Rageblade which makes him mid-game carry by default Kog's win rate is sub-50% until he finishes third item, then spikes to around 58-60% and then goes down after 35th minute. Basic rule when it comes to ADCS: Caster ADCs that rely on raw AD/ARpen {{champion:21}} {{champion:119}} are early game ADCs that rely on on-hit items {{champion:81}} {{champion:42}} are mid game Auto-attacking ADCs that rely on AS/Crit and DPS {{champion:67}} {{champion:29}} are late game
: If killing turrets in 2-3 hits late, while being non-viable in his intended lane but dominating lanes vs marksmen isn't healthy, I don't know what is.
He just does what he's supposed to do: control lanes and push like mad. Complaining about this is stupid. For example, Vel'koz deletes 3k hp 200 MR garen in 2s at 1k range while also shredding his team. Is he busted? No. He just does his job He has clear weaknessess: his kit is notoriously unreliable, his mana is quite tight, he's very squishy and he has quite low kill pressure for a mage.
: lol what is he then?
Xonra (NA)
: Yup let me shove {{champion:157}} into his tower I mean I'm sure he will go oom and never be able to roam. Or {{champion:238}} or {{champion:55}} Hell, good luck shoving {{champion:13}} even past like level 3. I'm sure this sounds good, but if they want to roam a lot, chances are you aren't out shoving them, and they probably don't even use mana to begin with.
Ziggs, Vel'koz and Viktor can easily shove champions you mentioned while being mana neutral. You'll find Yasuos/Zeds/Katas clear slow and innefficient when your opponent insta-vaporizes lane.
: no point in playing late game champions {{champion:96}}
: I'm more concerned with Ziggs, who is in 3 of those categories on the website.
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: Her Q can deny so much stuff, to the point that she can protect so many people with it at literally no cost. It can also be used offensively, even though it's harder and therefore less potent. Her W is more of a self-buff than an active ability. The MS is really good in her mobility since she doesn't have any other escapes. But it can also be used to catch someone off since it's an unmissable very strong slow, or disuade someone from chasing. Her E is just one of my most favorites abilities in the game. Huge shield and huge AD bonus can easily win a teamfight if the ADC knows what's up. And not only that, she can shield the diving tank, save from DoTs, buff AD, it's extremely strong. Her ult is just icing on the cake. Can reset a fight and heal the team pretty much to full HP, giving you a huge advantage. Can literally protect anyone by knocking everyone away, can interrupt everything and is just way too strong. Making plays isn't always the one who makes the engage. Personally, Janna is one of the carry supports if picked correctly against champions.
Like every CC ability in game is stronger than Janna's Q. Literally no cost? 150 mana makes it most expensive ability in game. 0.75s knockup. Like, seriously. VERY STRONG SLOW? ARE YOU FUCKING REAL? 40% for 3s on 10s cooldown is very strong slow? Wow... Her E AD bonus works only as long shield holds, which means like 0.01s in teamfights, especially if she can't build AP to make it stronger. Don't forget its 110 mana cost slow and lengthy CD I mean, you have 6 fucking games on Janna, averaging with 2.2 KDA and 33% win rate...
: worst part about being a mid laner
What about forcing the wave into enemy turret so that he's always OOM and unable to leave the lane?
forresto (NA)
: I never really got why they didnt just make lethality a catchall of magic pen and armor pen.
Magic pen is fine, Armor pen was broken. Why fix MRP if it's perfectly balanced?
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: She's my favorite, and for good reason. So much playmaking potential, protection, easy to pick up, high skill ceiling.
She has exactly 1 way to make plays - flash+R. Her W is piss poor ability thats not even worth using, Q is 0.75s knockup for 150 mana and E is boring shield.
k wìx (NA)
: Yea, at this point it's becoming obvious that Brand and Malzahar are a bit overtuned on the numbers front, while Lu Lu and Sona need some power given back.
GoatPope (NA)
: there are only 3 pen items {{item:3135}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3151}} and one of them is a % based so "up to 80" isnt really the limit when against high mr targets where the % pen is massive
What i meant is stacking MRpen to deal true damage. You deal true damage to targets with less than 80MR with those items
: First off, Haunting Guise has been sleeper for years. It's like the AP version of The Brutalizer back in s5 - a solid bundle of stats for a low price. Main issue with it is that Liandries isnt the best item on most mages. Id be worried about a new item building out of Haunting Guise being too strong. Also, a little-known secret is that the magic pen from Sorc boots can stack. Only champ I think doing this is a good idea on is Brand support after getting Eye of the Watchers, Liandries, and Void
Brand REQUIRES sorcs, void, rylai and liandry to work. Then you probably need Eye, so thats 5 of 6 itemslots.
: who in the world would stack magic pen boots -_- other than Veigar
Any mage support. In fact, if you removed MRPen, support mages would cease to exist.
GoatPope (NA)
: you actually already do nearly true damage to squishies if you build liandries anyways so it wouldn't really matter if you had even more mpen past this. Flat pen doesn't penetrate below zero mr {{item:3020}} {{item:3151}} + 7.8 mpen marks = 37.8 mpen. Possibly 6 more from mpen quints but usually not. All adc's have 30 base mr and probably 12 in mr glyphs. So you are doing ALMOST true damage, 37.8 mpen vs 42 mr. It really would not be game breaking to have more flat pen. It would only reduce their mr by 4.2 to zero, and I would bet that at the same gold an ap heavy item would net more damage If you built {{item:3135}} on top of this, it would go in effect first. So it would take their 42 and make it 27.3, THEN flat pen through that which takes them to zero which is legit true damage
With marks, quints, masteries and 3 pen items you ignore up to 80 MR. If you throw in pen glyphs you're looking at 90 MR. Dealing true damage to someone who bought MR item is disgusting. What is even more disgusting is Vel'koz ignoring entirety of Maw, including its passive shield. However, Vel is still not broken despite this and despite the ridiculous damage he deals. Edit: Im huge user of MRp quints. If you do the math, they're stronger than flat AP runes at any time except for very early game.
: actually there's a chinese build/strategy (chinese as in a lot of pros from china do it), where in your runepage, as an adc you drop 6 of your MR blues, and instead replace them with like, 6 Attackspeed blues. the idea is if a mage is running mag pen reds, sorcerer shoes, the flat mag pen in mastery tree and has a void staff (which are all common builds on mages), they would shred all of an adc's MR. Even if they were running 9 MR glyphs. So the assumption, is that mages already are doing true damage to you with their pen when you have 9 MR glyphs, why not run 3 instead, take the same amount of damage because penetration can never exceed 0 (only reduction does that) and get a little bit more out of your blues. Now, the one issue is that this rune set up starts netting an advantage once the mage builds void staff, and also usually by the time they get void staff, which is a flex item, you should be able to pick up an MR flex item like banshee's veil or mercurial scimitar. Also this build existed before keystones existed and reworked the entire mastery tree, so the greedy build is also like 2 years old at this point. The meta was a bit different too, with most supports not being magic damage harassers like brand/zyra and instead was largely braum and thresh.
Thing is, with just 30mr mages spike much earlier. In fact, reaching 30mrpen is matter of sorc shoes+runes/masteries. This is huge, as it allows mage support to go Frostfang-Sorcs-Ludens instead of Frostfang-sorcs-guise, so they spike earlier and much harder.
: This is the true meaning of ELO hell, when you are better than the majority of players at your elo, however not at a high enough margin to solo carry the majority of games. It is much much worse when the game becomes so ridiculously snowbally.
There is no such thing
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: Janna and Soraka don't need serious AP to do a very good job. Don't forget, Lulu and Sona are supportive champions, who can also function in a solo lane because they either have waveclear, or a strong poke, or both. This means, by design, that they need AP to either waveclear or poke. Malzahar can deal way more damage if he gets more AP. Be happy he doesn't have a lot of access to it fast enough. He is obnoxious to play against, but not as obnoxious as Brand or Zyra.
khorney (NA)
: why build that when lord dom is way better. ill take the dps over the grievous wounds, only perosn that people build this on is agaisnt swain and maybe the mundo if u see him
Warwick, Zac, Swain, Vlad, Akali, Illaloi, Darius, Soraka, Sona, Volibear and Mundo
Shadaxx (NA)
: Funny, considering {{item:3151}} and {{item:3116}} still proc off his E
i don't see why they shouldn't
: "darius needs a nerf, his mains have a 58% winrate"
Funnily, you can accurately estimate OP's rank by looking at champions he complains about. Silvers complain about Annie, Yi and Tryndamere (low skill floor right click champions) Golds complain about Darius, Illaloi and Ahri (powerpicks and bullies) Plats complain about Caitlyn, Vi and Hecarim (fotm or very specialized picks)
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