: Hey SilverSquid, I actually wanted to bring something up. Are you worried for Karma being classified as a Support rather than Mage Support with the recent patch notes? "For almost a year, Karma’s enjoyed a slow build-up into becoming the go-to generalist support among League’s top players." Karma currently being heavily favored more as a support than a mid laner, her win rate starting to go higher as a support than mid, playrate being 11% (peaked at 13.5%), her recent nerf to W making her less viable in a solo lane, and is now called as a support rather than a mage support (with Karma mains constantly having to remind them). A lot of Karma mains are asking if she get a rework in the next upcoming class revamp/rework/update (w.e. you want to call it), which probably will be Supports. I kinda fear Karma would be reworked as a support in mind rather than a Mage with utility in mind, which is bit of a death sentence if changes are done to her at that time. I'd rather they go back to before 6.6 (I really don't see them going back to before 5.10 at this point) and wait until the next mage update or Ionian event takes places to make improvements for Karma. What are your thoughts to this?
> Are you worried for Karma being classified as a Support rather than Mage Support with the recent patch notes? Short answer: No. Their assesment in the 7.1 patch only targeted her _role_, not her _subclasses_. She indeed _was_ one of the most picked supports in this season and that _was_ a problem, since she is so much of a generalist. A boring one too. As far as I have seen, ever since the subclass stuff, they try to do reworks in accordance to champions classes ("mage support" is kind of outdated). Following Meddlers words, they most likely consider her a **battlemage/enchanter hybrid** and they thought about targetting her in an enchanter (new term) or Ionian update. For what they are gonna do.... I can't imagine them EVER doing something to Karma again (on the scale of a mini-rework or bigger) without considering our opinion. Even if they don't talk to us most of the time, there is NO way they don't know of our passion, persistence and pertinence in this matter. The day Riot asks for our opinion on this matter, expect me. And if I don't see it, I am sure Warden Karma will contact me immediately, so we can get to work. Until that day I will stay a useful nuissance as I have been. And make sure Riot doesn't forget what we consider a proper **battlemage/enchanter** to be.
: Can we just bring Karma back to how she was before patch 6.6?
Actually, I would rather progress than regress. The recent changes were at least good for getting Karma (and her issues) into the spotlight, which makes it easier highlighting them to Riot and getting them to adress them. We can use the publicity, to be honest. With the new Karma players our community has grown. And with nearly 1 year of being popular, so have her cynics grown in number. As I said, I would rather Riot adresses her bland and uninspired kit as a whole, instead of just mindlessly going back to a state after they ruined her mantra balance (5.10). But again, I would rather Riot learns from this instead of just reverting her and going on as if nothing happened. I mean, at least we got an indicator now. Yay!
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T13:10:07.321+0000) > > This is what confuses me about that term anyways. There are some "black" people that call themselves "black", when they obviously are barly ochre. I also hate referring to myself as "white", because there seems to be more difference between me and a sheet of paper than me and some "black" people. It's so irritating. > > I think that's a nice thought. I would love that to be the case (even though if "identify" in race terms feels weird again). I agree, I think the terms black and white are really poor when it comes to describing people. I hear people from Latin countries have words for pretty much every skintone or mix, where I come from (London) everyone is either black, white, Asian or mixed. It just goes to show how important representation is to people, it's great when you have a character that a broad audience can identify with.
> It just goes to show how important representation is to people, it's great when you have a character that a broad audience can identify with I will just refer to everyone as mixed now. Fuck black-and-white-thinking. Literally. ###### Not like in literally **fuck** them, but the literal black and.... you know what I mean^^ I don't know why people feel the need to identify with anyone that shares a single trait with them. But at this point I think I just have to accept that people do need it, no matter if it makes sense to me or not.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T03:01:47.336+0000) > > https://s23.postimg.org/hsq2b9uvv/Karma_MASH.jpg > > This might be slightly overdoing it, but we are into this anyways, so fack it. > > See look, both the new ingame model and new splash art are clearly darker from the old one. > This was my main point. > Also see the similarity between Old Karma and the Italian woman minister in the middle? > She seems to be closer to her than to the black woman. > While you can clearly see the similarity for New Karma and the Indian woman, at least when compared to the ingame model. > > After extensively staring at this picture I am convinced of people thinking about Karma as a black person due to: > > * her lips > * her hairstyle > * her pronunciation > * the awkward shadows in her ingame model > > Overall I still do not think it has much to do with the skin (not the things you buy for RP, actual skin) itself. > Yes it's not irish, but it doesn't appear to me as being "black" either. > And I think I've reached a point where I have talked more about skin color than I planned to do all year. When I am actually just sitting here wondering why people could pick someone because of a skintone (not judging, I legitimately just don't get it. The thought seems foreign to me). Yeah I'm not sure why anyone would pick a character based on their skintone... That's a bit strange to me. About those pictures though, I'm not sure if you know many black people in real life, but they come in many different shades and tones. I'm black and I'm about the same colour as that Asian lady on the bottom left, maybe a bit lighter. The black girl on the right isn't a typical representation of what we look like lol, maybe in some places, but not in general. Karma being an ambiguous brown means that most of the world's population could identify with her in some way, simply because she's racially ambiguous. Same with Nidalee, if she was human you probably wouldn't be able to tell where she came from.
> I'm black and I'm about the same colour as that Asian lady on the bottom left, maybe a bit lighter. The black girl on the right isn't a typical representation of what we look like lol, maybe in some places, but not in general. This is what confuses me about that term anyways. There are some "black" people that call themselves "black", when they obviously are barly ochre. I also hate referring to myself as "white", because there seems to be more difference between me and a sheet of paper than me and some "black" people. It's so irritating. > Karma being an ambiguous brown means that most of the world's population could identify with her in some way I think that's a nice thought. I would love that to be the case (even though if "identify" in race terms feels weird again).
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T12:54:13.887+0000) > > I have also been escessively playing her before her rework. > And I probably spend more time checking her wiki than my emails, lol. I even checked that her old ingame model again before making the former comment, just to make sure. > So I am very well aware of her skintone. Her splashart is very light, her ingame model looks dark from some perspectives but this seems to be more of a shadow than a tan. Some people from south Italy look darker to me than this. > Point being; There is a clear color difference between her old splash and her new one. > > Why would you play a champion based on skincolor oO? Because I prefer darker skinned characters when I get the chance to play them. Rarely ever see them. Visually more appealing to me. Just like people play champions based on how they look. Like what lol? I guess can you show us the comparison, because I'm not seeing any white Karmas. Sakura is the closest thing I guess and that's still tan in my book. I mean here you go, how is this even considered not tan? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CIWW1MEbUY She def has always had a tan complexion. That's why in the cosplay community darker skinned people flocked to her because they didn't get picked on for cosplaying as her.
https://s23.postimg.org/hsq2b9uvv/Karma_MASH.jpg This might be slightly overdoing it, but we are into this anyways, so fack it. See look, both the new ingame model and new splash art are clearly darker from the old one. This was my main point. Also see the similarity between Old Karma and the Italian woman minister in the middle? She seems to be closer to her than to the black woman. While you can clearly see the similarity for New Karma and the Indian woman, at least when compared to the ingame model. After extensively staring at this picture I am convinced of people thinking about Karma as a black person due to: * her lips * her hairstyle * her pronunciation * the awkward shadows in her ingame model Overall I still do not think it has much to do with the skin (not the things you buy for RP, actual skin) itself. Yes it's not irish, but it doesn't appear to me as being "black" either. And I think I've reached a point where I have talked more about skin color than I planned to do all year. When I am actually just sitting here wondering why people could pick someone because of a skintone (not judging, I legitimately just don't get it. The thought seems foreign to me).
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T11:27:55.063+0000) > > Her skintone didn't even look Italian, now she is clearly Indian. I mean I have seen German girls with darker skin than her old self. No idea what her accent was supposed to be. Didn't sound "black" or like any particular earthly background imo. Uh...I'm unsure of what your talking about. Been playing this game since beginning of season 2 and played karma all the time well before her huge rework. Her skin was **ALWAYS** tan. You can look it up yourself. If you actually notice, her skin was slightly lightened in some of the splash arts, except Sakura, after her rework. And I understand why they would make her skin paler in the Sakura skin. But yeah Karma ALWAYS had a darker completion, I mean...I started playing her at first because she was one of the only darker skin champions in the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Miss Wake n Bake,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T11:41:51.330+0000) > > Uh...I'm unsure of what your talking about. > > Been playing this game since beginning of season 2 and played karma all the time well before her huge rework. Her skin was **ALWAYS** tan. You can look it up yourself. If you actually notice, her skin was slightly lightened in some of the splash arts, except Sakura, after her rework. And I understand why they would make her skin paler in the Sakura skin. > > But yeah Karma ALWAYS had a darker completion, I mean...I started playing her at first because she was one of the only darker skin champions in the game. I have also been escessively playing her before her rework. And I probably spend more time checking her wiki than my emails, lol. I even checked that her old ingame model again before making the former comment, just to make sure. So I am very well aware of her skintone. Her splashart is very light, her ingame model looks dark from some perspectives but this seems to be more of a shadow than a tan. Some people from south Italy look darker to me than this. Point being; There is a clear color difference between her old splash and her new one. Why would you play a champion based on skincolor oO?
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-17T10:47:58.369+0000) > > Exactly my point. > I am still waiting for that day someone blames the Karma community for being racist because they think Riot ruined her in the rework. Implying we really only think so because they turned her from white to dark-ish. The day this happens I will straight up give up on humanity. Wasn't Karma always dark? I know she sounded like a black woman so I assumed she was always black :/.
> [{quoted}](name=KingKold93,realm=EUW,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-01-18T10:55:58.614+0000) > > Wasn't Karma always dark? I know she sounded like a black woman so I assumed she was always black :/. Her skintone didn't even look Italian, now she is clearly Indian. I mean I have seen German girls with darker skin than her old self. No idea what her accent was supposed to be. Didn't sound "black" or like any particular earthly background imo.
: 1- you agree they didn't listen for years. 2- what do you mean real. they already changed it and made most champions lackluster in lore. 3- they didn't even have urf again until 2 years after initial after 2 years of pleading they finally brought it back for a weekend. if riot listened to everyone obviously the game would be geared towards silvers because of the mad amount of silvers complaining. here's the thing about listening. If you listen too late. then you didn't listen at all. Think about any time someone told you something. then you proceeded with life and got smacked in the face later on because you didn't listen. you may have learned your lesson then, but you've now been smacked in the face for not listening in the first place.
1 - I mean, on that one topic yes. And it's hard to argue that they weren't aware of the issue, it's just that they were being stubborn on it. 2 - Some new Lore like Poppy is pretty dank. Just the reason for all of them fighting is.... missing. And not properly replaced. It doesn't make sense anymore. 3 - They brought it back yearly and now it's in the rotation. Again, they might not do exactly what we want them to, but hard to argue they don't know about what we think (in those cases at least). > If you listen too late. then you didn't listen at all. Circumstances change, arguments get better. At least they are willing to progress eventually. I mean, I am currently working on stuff where I would want them to listen more (Karma....it's atrocious), but even I can't argue they _never_ listen.
: Example. Sandbox requested for training since season 2. not implemented until season 7 (Maybe even later). There was a 1v1 game mode that players asked for that was never implemented once. Ryze gets reworked 2 times before yorick gets touched. Believe it or not. Players liked the old lore way better than the new lore. They started to update it for champions. then just left it at 2 sentences for some champions because they got tired. Most champions talk about "summoners" but according to the new lore implemented 2 years ago, those don't exist anymore, so players have been asking for more relevant lore for the champions that do exist. Riot decided to add new champions instead of finish all the lore change and everything else added 2 years ago. Heck it's still called "summoners rift" players have just been pleading for custom urf mode to mess around on for years, still hasn't happened.
> Example. Sandbox requested for training since season 2. not implemented until season 7 So they _did_ eventually listen - even if way too late. > Believe it or not. Players liked the old lore way better than the new lore. The new one seems incomplete. As long as they don't give us a "real" new one, there is only the old to be missed and nothing new to be embraced. Kind of like Karma's thematics. > players have just been pleading for custom urf mode to mess around on for years, still hasn't happened. I remember a post from Riot talking about player engagement in those kind of modes. It dwindles pretty quickly. This is why they added those returning game modes to have a middle ground **between always having them up and attending them** and **not doing what the community wants at all**. I would like to note here that _listening_ to the community and _following what they want_ are two very seperate things. And looking at the boards I am very happy they don't just indiscriminatorily implement anything people request here. Other times I do wish they would finally listen tho.
: How have they listened to players?
Compared to other companies Riot has a strong connection with their playerbase. They may not be perfect, but relatively speaking, they are not bad. > How have they listened to players? They keep factoring in player feedback. Any proper business model factors in player satisfaction anyways. But take the sandbox for example.
Cloud273 (NA)
: Why does Leblanc only need to keep her tether up 1.5 seconds?
> Karma has to keep her tether up like twice as long {{champion:43}} 2s {{champion:7}} 1.5s > the range isn't nearly as good, {{champion:43}} 675 casting & 1000 breaking {{champion:7}} 950 {{champion:43}} can target through minions {{champion:7}} gains extra range due to being a skillshot > the damage sucks compared to what Leblanc gets {{champion:43}} 60/110/160/210/260 (+ 90% AP) {{champion:7}} 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+ 100% AP) > but for some reason the assassin is able to cc you so much more easily than the mage/support. {{champion:43}} Has a slow and speedbuff to apply it {{champion:7}} gets a free slow with it _**You are wrong on some occasions, right on others. But try to compare whole kits, not single abilities. Sometimes single abilities have to suck to make for a balanced kit.**_
: Riot hasn't had a strong connection with players since they got bought by ten cent. All of their decisions are made based on business models instead of player opinion
I strongly disagree with this assesment.
: That depends what riot wants in general. I feel like her damage output is high and her shields are consistently annoying. She can be outplayed and can also outplay. My personal preference would be to change her slightly and make her a mid instead of a support but I have no say there
> My personal preference would be to change her slightly and make her a mid instead of a support but I have no say there This is also what the Karma community is used to, wants and Riot keeps fucking up. But thanks for highlighting it.
: How lovely of you! But lol I am so far gone... I'm like that old spouse who has fallen out of love and is now petty and bitter and just judges and harps on every little mistake the other person makes LOL...! And then when Riot e.g. goes on a glorious quest of Illegitimate Retroactive Product Alteration with Hyena Warwick that now looks and is thematised NOTHING like old Hyena Warwick (incidentally the product version that originally made people want to spend money) I'm just like 'I HOPE YOU GO BANKRUPT... YESTERDAY!' XD
So the world has claimed another cynic... I use to say: _The world is pretty shitty, but also pretty cool, and so are its people and companies too. Expecting perfection is reality neglection. an expectation correction makes life easier for you._ At least, that does the trick for me. But I have only been fighting this fight for 1.5 years now. I don't think I could blame you. I am glad you have kept your wit and humor, even if your hope has bitten the dust.
: Lets remake league of legends.
>{{champion:43}} Karma - A decent and moderately annoying support (good job doing your job). The latest patch puts her exactly where she should be. Do you think she _"needs to be"_ a glorified shieldbot instead of a battlemage/enchanter? PS: I would love to upvote you just for the effort you made, but I need this cleared first.
: Hey, SilverSquid, just wanted to say thanks for continually trying to create well constructed and inviting discussion/theory-crafting on Karma. As usual, I really like your concepts that utilize the current kits assets to try and find a temporary thematic fix until something more indepth can be done. We share a lot of similar ideas in that regard. The only things in this current ideation I find a bit awkward would be the RQ and the Passive. While I agree that people could and would learn to switch from skillshot to something akin to Lux's Q (I believe that is what you are suggesting) I think it would be best to keep it a skillshot. As seen with Heimer and maybe Rengar (Personally never player him) their empowered spells still functionally cast the same. By that I mean make her RQ a skillshot that passes through enemies, but rewards hitting enemies closer to yourself. Maybe something along the lines of a mini Ezreal ult with upgraded Victor E. As in Karma sends forth an AoE of spiritual energy (can be the same size as current RQ detonation field) that damages enemies it passes through. Additionally it leaves behind a trail of energy that slows enemies within. This trail detonates after a short duration (I'd keep it 1.5 seconds) dealing additional damage (also this would work like Victor's Upgraded E, so it detonates in a line, not immediately.) As for rewarding Karma hitting enemies closer to her, the slow % could be heavier the earlier the enemy is hit by the ability. Again this is just a thought to keep it functionally the same as her regular Q (aka line skillshot) while keeping the things relatively similar to the current Live version when Mantra'd. As a side note, I'd actually nerf the range on regular Q and RQ to something between 750-850. I just think it is too safe of a high damage (when going AP) and spammable spell. As for the passive I like the concept a lot (getting rewarded for helping allies and hurting enemies) and honestly with the rest of the proposed kit changes I am not sure what I would change about it. I suppose I just feel it could be pushed further conceptually (I fully acknowledge you know it isn't perfect). Maybe something like Allies who are shielded by Karma reduce Mantra's cooldown by .5/1/1.5 seconds (can only happen once per shield) and only Mantra'd spells that hit enemies reduce Mantra's Cooldown. I don't know just throwing out random ideas. Anyway keep up the good work!
Thank you, that is very kind of you! > Maybe something along the lines of a mini Ezreal ult with upgraded Victor E. I am noting that one down. It sure isn't something I could use for a "quick fix" like this, as this definitely would require some animation changes and stuff, things I tried to avoid. But I am looking for a good solution to make her RQ a little bit more battlemage-like without making it just a double Lux-E. There sure is a certain someone that spams with me ideas in that regard, but any brain participating in this is welcome! > As a side note, I'd actually nerf the range on regular Q and RQ to something between 750-850. I just think it is too safe of a high damage (when going AP) and spammable spell. Yeah, this is quite some unhealthy behaviour. It's a poke-AoE-burst-semi-ult-spell that has all of Karma's damage shoved into it. Not a good design for a battlemage, that should neither be about burst nor poke. The "targeted AoE" solution homes in on this problem by making the spell less reliable on long ranges and more reliable on short ranges, while also making hitting the second explosion harder (it doesn't auto-spawn under main target).... unleeeeess you rooted them first, which requires you to be close again. But in my proposed iteration it needs something to be better than RE in some situations, which currently is the increased damage, CC and range it offers (using it when RE is not applicable or not enough damage). > Maybe something like Allies who are shielded by Karma reduce Mantra's cooldown by .5/1/1.5 seconds (can only happen once per shield) and only Mantra'd spells that hit enemies reduce Mantra's Cooldown. I wanted to slightly reward shielding allies (1.0-1.5s) and strongly reward hitting your full team (4-6s) doubling down on her selfles side. I don't know why you wouldn't want basic spells to reduce Mantra (nerf?). This would just make an argument for making it an ult-passive and giving her a real one instead. Which would be appreciated too, but probably also slightly outside the scope of a "small fix". Anyways, thank you for your input, I will make sure to use it when possible. Also thank you for being an exceptionally positive spirit on these boards!
: The Support Role Needs a New Leader
> Some people legitimately believe it is impossible for a black person to be racist, so you tell me. Exactly my point. I am still waiting for that day someone blames the Karma community for being racist because they think Riot ruined her in the rework. Implying we really only think so because they turned her from white to dark-ish. The day this happens I will straight up give up on humanity.
: Hahaha, I meant tired as in tired of Riot and their incompetent bullshit and the Curious Case of Syndra and the Peculiar Case of Karma and the Fantastic Tale of RIOT-CAN-YOU-FUCKING-LISTEN... But ye.
Oh, my bad. Or their bad, lol. Let me know if I can lift your spirits any way. I wouldn't want to miss you in this ;)
Racks (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-16T13:50:57.253+0000) > > What's wrong with Karma being a/the leader? it would be reverse racism because she's african american
> [{quoted}](name=Racks,realm=EUNE,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=4tnP4P87,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-16T13:54:53.519+0000) > > it would be reverse racism because she's african american I have reached a point where I can not securely tell anymore whether people hold this position seriously or not.
: Oh, you beautiful soul. I didn't read a single sentence because I'm tired and just so done with a capital D, but I can still call you beautiful.
I hope you got a good dose of sleep to be rested with a capital R ^^
: The Support Role Needs a New Leader
What's wrong with Karma being a/the leader?
: Karma shields too strong
[Life Patch 7.1 ](http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-71-notes) > W - Focused Resolve Damage Ticks: Three at 0, 1, and 2 seconds ⇒ Two at 0 and 2 seconds (total damage unchanged) Consistency: Also applies to Mantra W - Renewal _**Mantra E - Defiance Bonus Shield: 30/100/170/240 ⇒ 30/90/150/210**_ The Karma community didn't take too kindly the overbuffing of her shields. But yes, they just got nerfed, so you have kind of bad timing.
: I'd rather change the resistances to % damage reduction so it's not useless with tanks something like 11/12/13/14/15% (+1% per 100 AP) 1 hp per 20 ap is 5%, with 100% missing health that's 20% AP scaling, (40% in total) way too little. Make it 25% AP base and increased by 2% per 1% missing health. at 100% missing health it's a 75% heal (150% total, BUT consider the fact you have to be at 0% health and heal, then be brought to 0% again and proc the root) does the ally heal increase by his missing health, or Karma's own missing health? (i.e. you give a larger heal if you play risky and don't heal yourself)
> I'd rather change the resistances to % damage reduction so it's not useless with tanks I'd personally prefer damage reduction too, but that can go overboard with tanks quickly. > Make it 25% AP base and increased by 2% per 1% missing health. I don't want Karma to be able to top people off easily, this is supposed to be nothing but an emergency heal. Thus the lower value in general and the quadruple scaling. Outside of that I don't feel comfortable discussing values. > does the ally heal increase by his missing health, By THEIR missing health. Riot didn't like it how Old Karma was encouraged to run around at low hp and I kinda agree. This is just about healing someone at the right moment.
REDREX7 (NA)
: I see people that want to shift karma to a battle mage more instead of a back line mage and I think it is ok but from a design stand point Karma is wearing clothes... she would go poof in a real battle. IF warden Karma was base skin this would be cool. I personally think of Karma as a kite mage. I want Karma to be the kite mage. And I swear I read a post where riot wants to turn Karma into an artillery enchanter which i kinda love. Anyway moving onto your quick fix. P- I would increase the number to 3 atleast, potentially 4 stacks of gathering fire she can proc per ability or keep it the way it is and just nerf the amount of procs mantra shield can get. Q - If you guys want to shift karma from a support to mid laner how about potentially increase q range by X amount and scaling to 6.5 to 7.5 at most but nerf base and remove slow. Or nerf base and give karma a short burst of movement speed after hitting an enemy champion with Q. Or potentially give Q two independent cooldowns, one for her right and left hand and have each split the damage of her current Q. (just a bunch of ideas to get the creative juices flowing). Mantra Q- really weird changes nerf and buff at same time. Sometimes you can use enemy minions to avoid missing mantra Q on a enemy standing near them. But i guess your Mantra Q is more reliable. (My idea would be to nerf the overall damage from mantra Q and spead out her damage to her kit but to compensate remove the second explosion and make it a do over time ability after the first exposion) W- Why not give W charges but give a cooldown for the how long karma can apply W to an enemy champion again. That way in a teamfight Karma can do both tether and ally and enemy. But the decision is to whether to mantra W ally or enemy. (Also if we changed Mantra Q to a do over time damage ability then this allows the root to change into something else a new ability entirely, as she wont need the root to function.) E- I really want a offensive component on base E. Especially after the W nerfs on ticks. My idea is when Karma shields herself her next auto does increase magic damage .2 ap. Potentially give it to her shielded target but remove it when she mantra shields. Mantra E- YAASSS shield bomb back. side note I really want an aoe knock back component on mantra shield so potentially make it to wear if Karma mantra shields herself she gains a small aoe knock back.
> from a design stand point Karma is wearing clothes Ryze is shirtless. Karthus and Vlad are wearing clothes. All battlemages. Their magic is protecting them, not their attire... > I personally think of Karma as a kite mage. I want Karma to be the kite mage. That's not a subclass. But if it makes you happy, her ability to kite is unbroken. Other than that I would rather stick to her roots and general fanbase. > And I swear I read a post where riot wants to turn Karma into an artillery enchanter which i kinda love. This was the personal opinion of a redname, that he liked lobbing out RQs. And it was generally hit with dismay by the Karma community, because it was a strong missinterpretation of Karma. > I would increase the number to 3 atleast, potentially 4 stacks Stacks? > Q - If you guys want to shift karma from a support to mid laner Karma used to be mainly a sololaner for about 6 seasons... Other than that; your ideas are nice but a bit random and surely not a "quick fix". > RQ - My idea would be to nerf the overall damage from mantra Q and spead out her damage to her kit Damage nerf might be required anyways. But I added damage to all mantra options. **Re**-added. > W - Why not give W charges but give a cooldown for the how long karma can apply W to an enemy champion again. That way in a teamfight Karma can do both tether and ally and enemy. This seems to be a theme. I am trying to keep this a really low scale update, not a full blown rework. It's not that I dislike your input, it just isn't quite the time and place for it. Still gonna note them down anyways. > E- My idea is when Karma shields herself her next auto does increase magic damage .2 ap. Feels obnoxious to lane against. This is nearly the definition of unreturnable damage. I once wrote a rework that would create a small shieldbomb on your next E, if your E broke by damage. This meant that clever and efficient Karmas would get the ability to deal damage. Not perfect either, but maybe something you could like. > Mantra E- I really want an aoe knock back component on mantra shield I did that in only one rework so far (the one that also [reintroduced her fans](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jlwYrQAE-how-to-bring-karmas-fans-back-to-her)). The general consensus is that this is not something Karma should do, because it's cutting into Janna's job. I also tend to try and keep the CC low in my reworks and updates, to focus on her damage/protection aspect. Thanks for your suggestions though. I realize you are only trying to help with your input and my comment probably doesn't highlight this probably, as I misstook your answer as criticism, which confused me. Please feel appreciated though!
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RHn0ZE62,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2017-01-16T01:04:07.856+0000) > > Because RQ can deal more damage and does not require champions to be applied. > Or because you used E to reposition/survive. Seems like a weak argument. RQ would only deal more damage to a single target. Shieldbomb does too many things. Team shield, which is buffed by shield power and Windspeakers, speed boost, AOE damage with no travel time or missile speed. Doesn't seem like it could ever be healthy. I'm glad it's gone.
> RQ would only deal more damage to a single target. RQ is still an AoE? Besides; yes RE is generally a better teamfighting ability, provided you find the situation to hit enough people. > Shieldbomb does too many things.(...) Doesn't seem like it could ever be healthy. I'm glad it's gone. It was healthy for almost 2 years with no one complaining. If its power is spread out it means it can only ever be strong if it does all those things at once, which is unrealistic. This means you always need to choose which effect you won't get, which makes this spell so interesting. Yes, it is flexible, but surely not overpowered.
: The issue I can see is making her a jack of all trades (Shields, heals, and damage) would just make her one of the strongest supports. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but then it comes down to "Why play a different support when I could just play Karma?" And I think that's where a lot of the issues with supports come from. There are two distinct types (tanks and mages/spellcasters) as well as the damage mages going bot, but there is a lot of overlap in all of their kits.
Her healing is really only an emergency heal, to be honest. Other champions can top your carry off, only gaining twice as much healing on low hp, she gains quadruple healing, making it a complete waste on high health targets (on a long CD!). Besides, she already had weak/unreliable CC and I made it even weaker. I strongly assume this makes her beatable in those two areas. If you seperate current supports, they usually offer 2 of: protection/CC/damage Champions like Nami & Janna provide CC & protection Champions like Brand & Zyra provide CC & damage Karma could be unique by providing damage & protection
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RHn0ZE62,comment-id=000c00000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-16T00:24:14.456+0000) > > If two buttons with two cooldowns shouldn't have more power than a single spell, I don't know what should. This isn't a discussion of *power* more than it's a discussion of *functions*. R -> E has more power than standard shielding moves. This power doesn't need to be split in too many different directions. > It also has a way longer cooldown, requires two of them and it doesn't have to have the same speed/range properties. Besides, if Karma used it you know her emergency heal is down, making her more vulnerable. Any toplaner would figure that out quickly. What does this have to do with her supporting? This would be obnoxious in a duo lane is what I'm saying. To boot, you think top laners want to lane against an R -> Q that can't even be blocked by minions? Just free damage like that? Yeah, the cd's longer, but her other spells and AAs decrease her ult's cd. Can we not play dumb on why this would be a bad idea? > So the same problem as currently? Yeah, but a bit more so.
> This isn't a discussion of power more than it's a discussion of functions. R -> E has more power than standard shielding moves. This power doesn't need to be split in too many different directions. Does not _need_ to? Yeah, but it would fit a dualistic battlemage, right? > What does this have to do with her supporting? This would be obnoxious in a duo lane is what I'm saying. I am not only talking about her supporting, but all of her. Why would RQ be obnoxious in duo lanes more than anywhere else? > Just free damage like that? Most toplaners have abilities that can't be dodged. Many have mobility options. RQ is neither "undodgeable" nor "free" > Can we not play dumb on why this would be a bad idea? Just make your case. I am not playing anything, just explaining my point of view. > Yeah, but a bit more so. A little less in close range a little more on long range. Exactly what I want.
: She doesnt need a rework, she needs a crude and destructive nerf to that stupid hadouken of death. Deestroy that shid, kill it with fire
I am not a fan of Karma constantly RQ'ing either
: So if RE can't be dodged, deals damage to all enemies and shields all allies, why would you ever RQ?
Because RQ can deal more damage and does not require champions to be applied. Or because you used E to reposition/survive.
: - Karma's R -> Q does way more damage than Lux's E, though. The initial hit (when it blows up) has a .9 ratio in and of itself. The main cover for that is that you can hide behind minions, but without that, the move would probably be insufferable in lane and then not as useful later when people have more room and you have mobile opponents to deal with. - Karma's R -> W is one spell, not two. Don't change the framing. Damage, a speed up, and a shield is way too much going on for one shielding ability, even as an ult.
> Karma's R -> W is one spell, not two. Don't change the framing. If two buttons with two cooldowns shouldn't have more power than a single spell, I don't know what should. > Karma's R -> Q does way more damage than Lux's E, though It also has a way longer cooldown, requires two of them and it doesn't have to have the same speed/range properties. Besides, if Karma used it you know her emergency heal is down, making her more vulnerable. Any toplaner would figure that out quickly. > then not as useful later when people have more room and you have mobile opponents to deal with. So the same problem as currently?
Swarovsko (EUW)
: Your post about the twin dragons is lit. I really like it, good job! By the way in my honest opinion Karma has been treated very poorly by Riot. Sure, they did small changes ecc on her, but I think Riot still ignored her. Ryze had 38272867823 reworks and Karma had... small changes. Like "See, we actually care about Karma :D we removed her bombshield, now stop complaining". Karma hasn't received the attention she really deserves.
Thank you my friend, I am glad you like it! > Karma hasn't received the attention she really deserves It's hard to disagree with that. She keeps getting small attention by people who don't seem to understand what she needs. But she gets some. I swore myself to only ever use the best arguments I can find, and "she is getting ignored" doesn't seem like one. Even if I can clearly see where that argument is coming from.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RHn0ZE62,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-01-15T22:55:37.387+0000) > > This should have the scale of her 5.10 "update" (which was done by the life update team) or any of the mage "updates" in summer. I mean, it's still a rework of some scale. Regardless, this is me being nit-picky. > We could discuss it if you tell me why. > If not, well.... everyone has their opinion! Because it's either clumsy to land a good hit on later the damage from the increased variance (you just flat run through it to dodge it) or it's insanely oppressive earlier (you can't hide behind minions or tanks to body block it anymore). It has good intentions, but I don't think it's necessary. > Because it was her thing and main damage spell for the majority of her lifetime, a symbol for her dualism and until someone gives me a good reason why it was removed in the first place, I think she should have it back. Main reason I can think of is because it's up to 5 bombs at once tied to shields that make you move fast. Most shields in the game have one unique secondary effect, whether that's bonus ad, healing, damage dealing, MS increases, applying an on-hit effect to AAs, adding bonus defenses, and so on. Karma's would have 2, applied to up to 5 people. It's a bit overloaded. > The recent shieldbomb on Ivern kind of tells me it can not have been that bad of a spell. Ivern's doesn't give him a boost and doesn't shield 5 people.
> Because it's either clumsy to land a good hit on later the damage from the increased variance (you just flat run through it to dodge it) or it's insanely oppressive earlier (you can't hide behind minions or tanks to body block it anymore). You can currently run towards Karma to dodge RQ too (max range explosion and stuff). I would rather it being easier to hit at close range than at max range, to be honest. For it being oppressive; probably as oppressive as Lux E on a longer CD. > Karma's would have 2 [effects], applied to up to 5 people. It's a bit overloaded. Compared to other shields in the game it is also 2 spells at once tho.... Also the word "overloaded" is overused these days. AoE Shield, speed and damage is already overloaded for 2 spells? It's really hard to make good and interesting kits then, that aren't overloaded.... > Ivern's doesn't give him a boost and doesn't shield 5 people. Same argument here. 2 spells. One of them being a semi-ulti.
: 1) This is a rework 2) I don't like the R -> Q change. Not much point in making it akin to a Nami bubble when it *was* a standard skill shot. Also, higher variance requires more reward, so it'd need a damage buff. 3) Not sure why everyone's trying to force the shield bomb back into her kit. 4) W changes don't sound too bad, but I'd like more resistances per 100 ap.
> This is a rework This should have the scale of her 5.10 "update" (which was done by the life update team) or any of the mage "updates" in summer. > I don't like the R -> Q change. We could discuss it if you tell me why. If not, well.... everyone has their opinion! > Not sure why everyone's trying to force the shield bomb back into her kit. Because it was her thing and main damage spell for the majority of her lifetime, a symbol for her dualism and until someone gives me a good reason why it was removed in the first place, I think she should have it back. The recent shieldbomb on Ivern kind of tells me it can not have been that bad of a spell. > W changes don't sound too bad, but I'd like more resistances per 100 ap. Could probably need more, yes. Hard to judge without testing.
: As a Karma main and longtime fine of the sugar mama, I love these ideas but I feel like it has the same problem Zyra had: It'll force Karma into the Support role more than the Mage role.
The new RQ, as well as damage on RW and RE should make Mage Karma's damage options both reliable and versatile enough to apply them, compared to how she is now: RQ is her only damage option, it's predictable and unreliable. If you still feel this would push Karma more towards support I am sorry, I do not intend to. However, it is really hard to judge where those truly push her without testing them.
Leonerdo (NA)
: Problems: 1. Q>W>RE>passive reset>Q>W becomes the only thing you ever want to do in a team fight because of how powerful is when you hit 6-10 people. 2. RE will never be used outside of a teamfight (i.e. not used as an engage/disengage) because the utility would be nerfed so hard to make room for the damage. 3. Changing the RQ to ground-targeted AoE actually makes it more artillery-like since it can hit people behind minions, i.e. it's more reliable at range. (Not really a problem, but you said were aiming for the opposite goal). 4. Also it's more confusing because normal Q is a skillshot. 5. RW health scaling is mostly a buff to tank-Karma, since she can stay at low health easier when building tank. (Maybe that's not a problem, but I consider tank Karma kinda unhealthy, and already pretty reliant on RW.) 6. Granting resistances (allied W cast) is very hard to appreciate. It would either seem useless, or be subject to abuse when used on certain allies who benefit the most from extra resistances (RW+E on Olaf could be pretty cheesy, for instance). 7. The Passive change mostly just makes it less interactive/more reliable, and doesn't change her gameplay at all. I suppose it's a nerf to her as a battlemage or tank, and a buff to her as a support, but I'm not sure if that's a good goal or not. 8. Just a nitpick, but all of these changes together are not a "quick" fix. Maybe just one of them. That's a lot of criticism, but I don't want you to think I just hate all of it, because that's not true. I do particularly like the allied W cast; I think it could be interesting on a more back-line version of Karma who can't reach enemies with the root. I dunno if it could ever be better than the root though, when she's played as a battlemage. My advice is to find a more focused goal or vision, and make sure all the changes improve that one goal (less changes overall as a side-effect). Personally, I think your goal of more a more battlemage/front-line support is most unique. I don't know if she really needs to be more unique though. Sometimes it's okay to have a versatile character rather than a super unique one. (Well, as long as versatile doesn't mean "good at literally everything", because that's the Azir problem.)
> 1. Q>W>RE>passive reset>Q>W becomes the only thing you ever want to do in a team fight because of how powerful is when you hit 6-10 people. I mean.... yeah. RE always used to be the teamfight spell. But at least it has a skillcheck now and support Karma could use RW for better single target protection. As I said, this is not perfect, but I suppose it's better than now. > RE will never be used outside of a teamfight (i.e. not used as an engage/disengage) because the utility would be nerfed so hard to make room for the damage. You are aware that Karma used to have this, right? Just with lower shields and better MS? > Changing the RQ to ground-targeted AoE actually makes it more artillery-like since it can hit people behind minions, i.e. it's more reliable at range. (Not really a problem, but you said were aiming for the opposite goal). Since it has a travel time it is generally more reliable at close than at distance. If it is still too easy to poke with it, just slow it down a little. Additionally, since the area now spawns where you plan it, not exactly below a person, escaping the second half would be easier at range. > Also it's more confusing because normal Q is a skillshot. I am convinced people will get used to it quickly > RW health scaling is mostly a buff to tank-Karma, since she can stay at low health easier when building tank. (Maybe that's not a problem, but I consider tank Karma kinda unhealthy, and already pretty reliant on RW.) It should actually be a nerf to tank Karma, because it does not scale with health anymore. I chose that scaling to make it viable on Mage Karma and weaker on Tank Karma. > Granting resistances (allied W cast) is very hard to appreciate. It would either seem useless, or be subject to abuse when used on certain allies who benefit the most from extra resistances (RW+E on Olaf could be pretty cheesy, for instance). Agreed. However, I could not come up with something better that is also as easy. As I said, this is a "quick fix", not a perfect solution. > The Passive change mostly just makes it less interactive/more reliable, and doesn't change her gameplay at all. I suppose it's a nerf to her as a battlemage or tank, and a buff to her as a support, but I'm not sure if that's a good goal or not. It should give Mage Karma options for teamfighting (gameplay?). Mage Karma did get better RW (damage&healing) and a better RE (damage). Support Karma got the passive and ally W. > Just a nitpick, but all of these changes together are not a "quick" fix. Maybe just one of them. True. It would probably be considered an "update" just as 5.10 was. However, that was done by the Life Update Team as well (or ricklessabandon, to be specific). > My advice is to find a more focused goal or vision, and make sure all the changes improve that one goal I don't know if you are aware, but [Twin Dragon Karma](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) is one of those visions. Maybe you prefer that one, just as I would. But this is trying to find a middle ground. > Sometimes it's okay to have a versatile character rather than a super unique one. I don't think she would lose versatility. Probably one of the best supports from midlane or best mages that still are a support (compared to Brand, Annie, etc.). Also I am just trying to give Karma back _some_ of the uniqueness she lost. If even Meddler admits she is bland and lacks things not already seen on other champions, I might not be that far off track. Thank you for your time and detailed criticism! It keeps me challenged and drives me forward!
Varnoc (NA)
: Well thought out. After re-reading it a few times, I like what I'm hearing. The only question I've got is regarding the passive; > Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2/2.5/3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability, halved to 1/1.25/1.5 seconds when using basic attacks or when affecting other allied champions with spells. This ability can not reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell. Am I correct in my understanding that if I were to hit 3+ enemies with a Q during the late game, it would only shave off 6 seconds? That would be pretty lame. My assumption is that "This ability cannot reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell." exists solely to keep Mantra+E in check, correct? Hitting all 10 players with this ability would be pretty stupid, considering it's instant. Assuming that the answer to that is, at least partially, yes: Why not make the damaging portion of the "Shield Bomb" delayed? This gives the enemy team time to react to Karma's actions, rather than instant damage that can't be played around. With that delay, 7.5 seconds off Mantra immediately in an ideal scenario is reasonable. The remaining potential 15s is then in the hands of your opponent, they have time to react to the situation and attempt to deny you that additional CDR. Additionally, whomever you shielded (if they know what's up) would want to hit as many people as possible with it, making for some interesting team play. 2 Mantra charges where!? (I jest, I know why this can't happen.) --- Other than that, lovely piece. Fine work as usual Squid.
> Am I correct in my understanding that if I were to hit 3+ enemies with a Q during the late game, it would only shave off 6 seconds? That would be pretty lame. I don't know how often you would hit 3 or more players with a basic Q, but yes, this was reduced to balance out the "free" CDR you get from casting W and E on your allies. > Why not make the damaging portion of the "Shield Bomb" delayed? I usually like including this, or at least giving the explosion an actual travel time. However, as I stated, I tried to make this not require any new animations, and I am very convinced that this would need a "threatening" vibe before exploding. This and the 2 mantra charges stuff is something for an actual rework, not a quick fix ;) Thank you for your insight and commentary!
: can someone dumb down what the Q does for me i still cant understand?
**[Normal Q]** Linear skillshot that explodes on impact, dealing AoE damage **[With Mantra]** Normal Q that explodes on impact (or max range) AND leaves a slowing zone that deals damage again at the end **[With My Suggestion]** Targeted Aoe (like Lux E) instead of skillshot, rest stays the same. Current mantra'd Q favours casting at max range, so the guaranteed explosion hits your enemies easier. I would prefer it to be reliable at close range, since that's what battlemages should be good at.
: Part of the issue with her passive is it scales twice over on CDR. It both reduces the Mantra cooldown, and the cooldown of abilities reducing the Mantra cooldown. Fixing this would make her less oppressive. Making her passive refund a %age of her ult cooldown would be a better interaction Imo. I think if Karma gets a massive multi-target hit, she should be rewarded for every target hit. That shit is hard to do. But it also lets you control the value per hit.
They supercharged the passive values to counteract her bad scaling. Bad idea, imo. You are right about the double scaling, but this is also why I added the cap to her passive, to make it more consistent. Your % suggestion would do something very similar, but I prefer the flat values slightly, because they look less awkward. > I think if Karma gets a massive multi-target hit, she should be rewarded for every target hit. She kinda is. It's a lot of damage done to the enemy ._.
: yah, values are debatable but even so it would be nice to be able to choose between building as a peeler and as an enchanter. Maybe if and when support class update comes we could see itemization for support classes.
I was trying to give her options between _battlemage_ and _enchanter_. Do you want her to be a peeler specialist next to the already existing ones?
: I love the ability to tether your teammates, but the ally counterpart doesn't seem as impactful as the offensive version. Although, I would add that Soulflare ends upon hitting an enemy champion, not target location.
To be a successful battlemage she needs to be able to adress anyone within her range. Not being blocked by the enemy frontline would be one of those things. The tether should only be that impactful in combination with her shield on top of it. Some 10 extra armor on your ADC early game makes quite the difference (with Windspeakers). Also it protects two people.
: I like it but I have a few concerns. At first glance her W - Focused resolve, would work extremely well with her shield/heal and windspeaker's blessing granting a lot of resistances [at 18 level her w and shield would grant 30+22(armor),11(MR) for a total of 52 armor + 41 MR, almost guardian angel stats ]. Other than that it seems pretty good.
As I said, values are debatable. Besides, those are Orianna's resistance values with some weak scaling. If it isn't broken on her, I don't know why it would be on Karma. Sure, a shield, heal and resistance buff is nice, but it's 3 spells (1 of them a semi ulti) and she gives up nearly all her damage for it. But again.... values^^...
Rioter Comments
Swarovsko (EUW)
: Sorry but she doesn't need a "quick fix". She has so much potential and is so wasted right now. She deserves a full VGU, I don't care if other champions deserve it too, Karma has been ignored for 4 years and she will probably be ignored this year too. I don't want a quick fix, I want to play a REAL battlemage. Riot could do so much with Karma (for example, why do her twin dragons are just a decoration on her back? What if they were part of her kit?). Your ideas are cool but she deserves more than a "quick fix".
The chances of her getting a VGU within the next 4 year is nearly nonexistent Do you know how much some board members would rage if she got a second one before their champion even got their first? But I do agree that she has a lot of wasted potential. > Karma has been ignored for 4 years I don't know why people keep repeating that. She had her rework in March 2013 She had her update in May 2015 She had 5 patches that targeted her as an individual champion (not a group) since then. That is one change every ~4 months, with an average of 2-4 weeks of PBE time per change. She also received 2 skins in the meantime (won't comment on the quality), which averages 1 skin/year which is rather average. Sure Riot fucks up the communication with her community, but this does not feel like "ignoring" to me. > I don't want a quick fix, I want to play a REAL battlemage. Realistically speaking, it's the only thing we can hope for in a long time. It's not that I wouldn't want more (check my [Twin Dragon Rework](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) for what I truly want), but I don't expect more... _for now_ > why do her twin dragons are just a decoration on her back? What if they were part of her kit? I assume for the same reason they banked Ao Shin for so long. Because they weren't happy with the animation of long apendages. Only recently they managed to do them properly, which is why Aurelion Sol could be released.
inplane (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FNy5u2cu,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-14T19:53:32.511+0000) > > My proposed "quick fix" for Karma. Changes are _**highlighted**_. > > Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2/2.5/3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability, halved to 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 seconds when using basic attacks _**or when affecting other allied champions with spells. This ability can not reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell. **_ > > Unchanged > > Inner Flame _**travels (harmlessly) through enemies to target location**_ to deal bonus magic damage and leave an area of effect that lasts 1.5 seconds, slowing enemies inside by 50%. The area detonates at the end of its duration, dealing magic damage to all enemies inside. ~~If Soulflare does not hit a target, the area is created at maximum range.~~ > > Karma forms a tether between her and the target enemy champion or monster, dealing magic damage and granting true sight of them for the duration. > If the target does not break the tether by moving out of range, it deals magic damage and they are rooted for a short time. > _**If targetting an allied champion, instead of dealing damage Karma increases her and their resistances by 5/10/15/20/25/30 (+1 per 100AP) as long as the tether persists.**_ > > Focused Resolve _**deals bonus magic damage**_ and heals Karma for _**40/80/120/160 (+1 per 20AP) increased by 3% for every 1% health she is missing**_, once upon being cast and once more upon rooting its target, ~~with the root duration increased.~~ > _**If targetting an ally, Karma gives up this heal to grant it to her ally instead. **_ > > Unchanged > > Inspire overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield, _**dealing magic damage to surrounding enemies**_ and shielding all allied champions near them _**for a fixed amount and a percentage of the damage dealt**_, while granting them _**a fixed**_ bonus movement speed. > > Unchanged > > ____________________________ > ____________________________ > > There. Doesn't need a full VGU to make a battle enchanter. A real designer could probably do better, but it's the best I could come up with so far. > > **P** - Should interact with ALL of Karmas abilities, not just the offensive ones. I tried capping the passive to keep her in line. > > **Q** - Unchanged > **RQ** - Making it a targeted ground ability ensures Karma is not encouraged to fight at max range anymore, but thrives in close combat instead, even if minions are hugging her. > > **W** - Ally function to offer "enchant-y" support qualities at expense of damage/CC. Note how this allows you to stay in battle next to your friends. > **RW** - Health scaling that fits a mage and ally function that fits an enchanter. Removed annoying root because nobody likes it. > > **E** - Unchanged > **RE** - Shieldbomb again, rewarding hitting many players of both team and discouraging simply targetting your team all the time. This adds a well needed skillcheck to this ability and makes it useful for mage Karma. > > **R** - Unchanged > > ######PS: Yes, those changes would also mean a lot of number changes to her values. I tried keeping it short and simple tho. I really like how you changed Soulflare to be more situational so it wont be her end-all-be-all damage option. Would definitely make her more interesting. I think Focused Resolve should have better values for the ally buff. 5 Armour and MR at Rank 1 is kind of underwhelming. Though I can see why it is like that for balancing purposes. Defiance's explosion radius could also be increased by a little bit to accommodate her AA range. It feels quite small at the moment.
As I said, values need to be changed. I took Orianna's E resistance values. I thought that her **[W+E]** shield/resistance + Aoe movement would compare to Karma's **[W+E]** double resistance + single target shield/speed. I might be off tho. Defiance was okay when it could target minions, which increased the effective range by a lot. If it is champion only, the range might in fact be too small. Again; testing required.
Hiemal (NA)
: @Live Game Update Team Restore Karma as a Battlemage, That You Took Away
My proposed "quick fix" for Karma. Changes are _**highlighted**_. > # Passive - Gathering Fire Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2/2.5/3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability, halved to 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 seconds when using basic attacks _**or when affecting other allied champions with spells. This ability can not reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell. **_ > # Q - Inner Flame Unchanged > # RQ - Souflare Inner Flame _**travels (harmlessly) through enemies to target location**_ to deal bonus magic damage and leave an area of effect that lasts 1.5 seconds, slowing enemies inside by 50%. The area detonates at the end of its duration, dealing magic damage to all enemies inside. ~~If Soulflare does not hit a target, the area is created at maximum range.~~ > # W - Focused Resolve Karma forms a tether between her and the target enemy champion or monster, dealing magic damage and granting true sight of them for the duration. If the target does not break the tether by moving out of range, it deals magic damage and they are rooted for a short time. _**If targetting an allied champion, instead of dealing damage Karma increases her and their resistances by 5/10/15/20/25/30 (+1 per 100AP) as long as the tether persists.**_ > # W - Renewal Focused Resolve _**deals bonus magic damage**_ and heals Karma for _**40/80/120/160 (+1 per 20AP) increased by 3% for every 1% health she is missing**_, once upon being cast and once more upon rooting its target, ~~with the root duration increased.~~ _**If targetting an ally, Karma gives up this heal to grant it to her ally instead. **_ > # E - Inspire Unchanged > # RE - Defiance Inspire overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield, _**dealing magic damage to surrounding enemies**_ and shielding all allied champions near them _**for a fixed amount and a percentage of the damage dealt**_, while granting them _**a fixed**_ bonus movement speed. > # R - Mantra Unchanged ____________________________ ____________________________ There. Doesn't need a full VGU to make a battle enchanter. A real designer could probably do better, but it's the best I could come up with so far. > # Explanations **P** - Should interact with ALL of Karmas abilities, not just the offensive ones. I tried capping the passive to keep her in line. **Q** - Unchanged **RQ** - Making it a targeted ground ability ensures Karma is not encouraged to fight at max range anymore, but thrives in close combat instead, even if minions are hugging her. **W** - Ally function to offer "enchant-y" support qualities at expense of damage/CC. Note how this allows you to stay in battle next to your friends. **RW** - Health scaling that fits a mage and ally function that fits an enchanter. Removed annoying root because nobody likes it. **E** - Unchanged **RE** - Shieldbomb again, rewarding hitting many players of both team and discouraging simply targetting your team all the time. This adds a well needed skillcheck to this ability and makes it useful for mage Karma. **R** - Unchanged ######PS: Yes, those changes would also mean a lot of number changes to her values. I tried keeping it short and simple tho.
: it also seems to be incredibly inaccurate. I've been outside the range and it is still connected to me. I'm thinking the hitbox or whatever you call it is edge to edge as that's the only way that indicator is accurate at all.
From what I've seen when testing you seem to be right. It appears to count towards the players edge, but of course it breaks depending on the enemy center. Alternatively maybe the tether doesn't update often enough?
: Only a handfull of Champions are programmed as Bots in League, not all. I believe there are only like... 20 or so? Not sure something aroung that.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gMAqQPiN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-13T20:35:47.636+0000) > > Do not let the Karma community be known as ungrateful. > Thumb that sh*t up!!! > > PS: To me it seems like there _should_ be an indicator for the enemy too. Maybe even more so than for Karma. If anyone can check, please let us know! There is one, i was watching Tobias Fate play GP Vs Karma and it showed a indicator
Thank you for comfirming it. Warden and I just tested it, but more sources is always preferable :)!
: So Karma's Tether got finally a Range Indicator and its not in the Patch notes?
# Warden Karma and I just tested it: The indicator can also be seen by the ENEMY!!!! Clarity FTW!!!
: Oh I didnt know theres a Karma Bot ^^ Checking ... Jup I remember correctly, theres no Karma Bot (tested in Custom)
> theres no Karma Bot Why in all that is unbalanced would that be oO?
Show more

SilverSquid

Level 30 (EUW)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion