Leo1024 (NA)
: For The First Time In Forever I Felt Like I Carried As A Support
That's really great to hear! It seems to be similar reasons why I picked up Karma in the first place too (and because I like supportive midlaners). It's nice that even without outside appreciation you can appreciate yourself and your success. That's what matters the most. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: 3 Minute Full Lethality Fizz Montage
I am actually kinda relieved to see that this isn't a good build on him. Thank you.
: > [{quoted}](name=SpookyNeedle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbTh0j9Y,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-11T05:13:56.222+0000) > > You can't stun with Karma's E Woops. XD I meant her W. :p
You also can't stun with W...
: Where's my picture of the dominos. It's the only reason I clicked. I thought it was cute.
No opinion on adapting Karma? Anyways, here you go: http://www.spiritual-knowledge.net/images/karma.gif
: It could make them cheaper for one. Plus there's also the passive and active effects you'd still want as a tank.
But you could still go full AP malphite while getting tank stats for free.
: My own pragmatism is the source I guess. You want tanks to be tanky, but you don't want non-tank to build tank items and still do the most damage in the game. The thing creating tank ekko, tank fizz, tank karma, etc is the items. Logically that means you either have to artificially restrict which items which champion can buy or you have to nerf the items and compensate tanks within their kits.
But wouldn't that make tank items on tanks essentially.... meaningless? What would prevent them from gettin all damage items if most of them get the tank stuff for free anyways?
: I've got the feeling that tank items are getting majorly nerfed and that tanks are getting a bunch more armor, mr, and HP per level. So every time you level up, you'll end up getting 10 armor, 10 mr, and 100 HP which will vary a little from tank to tank. That way tanks will get a lack of fun build into their kits and other classes won't be able to be tanks when a GA only gives them 20 armor and 20 mr and a thornmail will have a whopping 30 armor.
That would be very enjoyable. But even more reason to remove Karma's hp scaling and replace it with something more fit for a mage/support. PS: Any sources for these.... feelings?
: What would you think if Karma's old Q became Karma's new W? That would give her a heal, the wave clear from her old R+E, and bring back damage she has lost from the patch 5.10. Also what if she had her old passive and her current passive was moved to R with it scaling by 1, 1.5, 2. Basically something like a half-revert.
I feel like I had already answered those questions. Did I forget to do so? I am certain that I have pondered those questions, but did I not write it down? If so, I am sorry! > What would you think if Karma's old Q became Karma's new W? Removing the tether from Karma means removing yet another thing she had forever. This is a high price to pay for an outdated damage cone. I don't think this would fly ba Riot's design standards and I personally don't think it would be worth it. I enjoyed old Q and RQ, but in the context of the time and her kit. > Also what if she had her old passive Free power for low hp is not a good idea. I also dislike the way they did it with Poppy, even though it's much more harmless, and this would probably not fly on Trynda if he was designed these days. Sure, it fit old Karma very well, because she had two abilities that allowed her to dance around on low hp (shield and heal), which made it really enjoyable, but her kit needs to revolve around it. Today's kit doesn't. And I strongly suspect Riot doesn't like having a champion that is encouraged to run around on as-low-hp-as-possible all the time. Personally I don't think it's too bad, but I tend to gravitate towards creating Karma kits that give you opportunities when taking damage (for a few second) instead of getting free power for being and STAYING low. As low as possible (Poppy, only needs to be under 40%, WW under 50%, and those are only effects that help them survive once things get tough) > her current passive was moved to R with it scaling by 1, 1.5, 2. Her current passive is a shame of a standalone passive and not sufficient as long as the interaction with E/RE is gone. Giving Karma a real passive and moving it to her mantra would surely help, but I think that passive needs more thought in general. Or we need the RE damage back first. > Basically something like a half-revert. I gave up trying to push "my" way with Karma over a year ago. Today I try to find out what the community wants and needs, and what Riot wants and needs, how to create something that all people involved with Karma could enjoy. Her opponents, her old fans, her new fans, everyone. As such, reverting is out of the question for me, in most cases. I need to keep in mind why Riot changed some things in the first place and work with that. This is one of the reasons why it makes me furious that they never told us why they removed RE, because it's such an important part in Karma's history and future developement, yet I lack their opinion on it.
: > where he started "a discussion" where he again, did not bother explaining anything concrete. Yeah. That's what people do on the boards. Post their opinions to vent or to check how much people agree. When I create a thread I wanna engage with people and challenge/get challenged by everyone involved. But this takes at least a full day of commitment and I can understand if people can't/won't use that much time. It is fairly common to not answer more than 2-3 comments in your own thread. It's weird to me, but it's the way it is. > Here's my comment on his thread, if you want to see if i was being a dick to him or not. Not a dick, no. But once again you, despite appearing very clever and well versed, you seem to get stuck with banter and proving superiority, instead of just proposing short and precise arguments. I can understand why people who don't have the time to make a huge thread in the first place don't wanna engage in challengers who keep writing comments as long as the post itself and coming off as both overly polite and painfully disrespectful. Not trying to be offensive here, I am just trying to convey how this feels from a not-you-perspective. > So much for wanting to discuss things. Reading his post I really doubt that was his intention. People seem to like validation and hive minding over discussion. > Before you start riding him cowgirl position raw, it would pay off first to do your research into both parties Weird assumption. I did only comment on the way you treated him in this instance. No need to stalk you for that. > I was not unpleasant to people (...) He decided to be dick-ish about it and after the first comment, it was very much apparent to me. First of all, that is both arrogant and ignorant to say. How could you know how others perceive you. I assume you didn't _try_ to be, but if you behave the way you do in this thread, you _are_ unpleasant, _at least_ to me. Second of all, this is the kind of banter that makes you appear insecure and fall prey to trolls, while others will tend to avoid you. > And lastly, he's Silver 2. Yeah, I don't care. I know people with physical disabilities who can never reach something higher than bronze, it's not always their mind. Sure, it's hard to assess a higher Elo that you could never play in, but it's not impossible. I once used this ad hominem and I regret it to this day. > but i won't shy away from putting them in their place If that's what it feels like, I have to disappoint you. You are not achieving it. You look desperate, chidlish and arrogant trying to put someone _"in their place"_ on a forum. There is no point in trying that. There is no reward for achieving it. And it's not your authority either. Be nice. Offer rebuttals. There is nothing better than being nice AND correct. Being arrogant AND correct is a straight downgrade. Also, if you want to convince people, you have to make them like you. If they hate you, they have a reason to not even listen to you. Which he just did.
> The same attitude would be equally disgusting of a Diamond player If their attitude would be equally disgusting independent of their rank, why bring it up? > it's not an ad hominem attack. It's the truth. It's always hard to hear the truth from someone else and you almost always interpret it as a personal attack. Ad hominem means adressing the person not the argument. It doesn't have to be false nor does it have to be a personal attack. > What is arrogant is when i am rubbing it in their face, which is something i never did. Claiming to know how you appear to everyone is arrogant, as it claims holding a position (of knowledge) above everyone else. > What does this mean - It's not my authority to put someone in their place? Teaching someone a lesson implies some kind of superiority. A respectful debate assumes your partner as an equal. If you are not willing to lead a proper debate you may not blame others for not doing so either. > I couldn't care less if people find me likable or not, as long as i am correct in what i'm saying. Then you don't care about convincing them, but only about being right. Which means it's not aboute the debate, but all about you. I don't want to invite this _"everyone needs to like everyone and no one ever needs to be offended ever"_ thinking, but rather the idea that we should fight arguments, not those who hold them, which we sometimes need to remind each other of. Otherwise this is a war without a goal, other than war. > And i like destroying these fools by calling them out on their stupidity and contradictions, only to have them explain themselves properly on what they meant. If they don't do this, it's becomes very clear from that "discussion" how stupid they made themselves look. Yup, it's all about you then. You even know. Fascinating So you are on here for sadistic pleasure or to make up for some lacking self worth? Either way, I prefer those who are just plainly craving for upvotes in simple words with honest opinions more than your kind.
Ralanr (NA)
: Ehhhhhhhh....at this point I'm willing to see what happens.
Do you think the proposed changes would be bad tho?
Ralanr (NA)
: The intended goal of the tank update is for tanks to get the most benefit out of defensive items while other classes do not.
Not trying to be cynical here, but there usually are at least some unintended beneficiaries from new items. And I would rather it not being Karma, when there could be an easy way to prevent it. And maybe improve Karma a bit while doing so.
Rioter Comments
Elikain (EUNE)
: >He just realized you were too far removed from his position that he didn't even bother trying to convince you anymore. Then i encourage you to look at his profile [and find his recent thread](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JMEnLjul-just-revert-malzahar-and-syndra) where he started "a discussion" where he again, did not bother explaining anything concrete. He was just there to amass upvotes (which he got) and seek attention. To which again, i stumbled upon by pure accident and once i figured out that it was the same guy, i asked him to explain what he meant this time. One thing is to refuse to participate in a conversation (which this guy inserted himself into) and the other thing is to ignore a valid question on his own thread. [Here's my comment on his thread,](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JMEnLjul-just-revert-malzahar-and-syndra?comment=001a) if you want to see if i was being a dick to him or not. I wasn't aiming to be polite this time around, but i was firm to ask for a concrete rebuttal, to which he didn't reply to. And i didn't see anything of the sort discussed with the others, he just ignored the thread altogether. _**So much for wanting to discuss things.**_ Now this is why i said he was full of shit and that he doesn't know what he's talking about. And i politely called him out for that. Whether you approve of this or not is not my concern. If he wants to participate in intelligent discussions, he should bring his intelligence with him. --- _**Before you start riding him cowgirl position raw,**_ it would pay off first to do your research into both parties, if you want to come to a reasonable conclusion _**(use protection)**_. I was not unpleasant to people i replied to _**before**_ he decided he should add nothing to a discussion, i actually discussed things and then he came along, pretending his opinion is a fact, to which he did not want to share. So he could have not reached a conclusion that i was "not worth" the explanation. He decided to be dick-ish about it and after the first comment, it was very much apparent to me. And lastly, [he's Silver 2](https://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=Swarovsko). I don't ever want to make a point about someone's rank because that alone means nothing if they can discuss something from their point of view._** But typical low ELO behavior and mentality**_ is what he displayed right here and on every thread he can think of to write. He believes he's right and he does not bother explaining anything to anyone, which is why most of decent people avoid him and his threads in a wide arc. I won't bother discussing anything further with people like him but i won't shy away from putting them in their place, because that's what they ask for when they comment in this manner.
> where he started "a discussion" where he again, did not bother explaining anything concrete. Yeah. That's what people do on the boards. Post their opinions to vent or to check how much people agree. When I create a thread I wanna engage with people and challenge/get challenged by everyone involved. But this takes at least a full day of commitment and I can understand if people can't/won't use that much time. It is fairly common to not answer more than 2-3 comments in your own thread. It's weird to me, but it's the way it is. > Here's my comment on his thread, if you want to see if i was being a dick to him or not. Not a dick, no. But once again you, despite appearing very clever and well versed, you seem to get stuck with banter and proving superiority, instead of just proposing short and precise arguments. I can understand why people who don't have the time to make a huge thread in the first place don't wanna engage in challengers who keep writing comments as long as the post itself and coming off as both overly polite and painfully disrespectful. Not trying to be offensive here, I am just trying to convey how this feels from a not-you-perspective. > So much for wanting to discuss things. Reading his post I really doubt that was his intention. People seem to like validation and hive minding over discussion. > Before you start riding him cowgirl position raw, it would pay off first to do your research into both parties Weird assumption. I did only comment on the way you treated him in this instance. No need to stalk you for that. > I was not unpleasant to people (...) He decided to be dick-ish about it and after the first comment, it was very much apparent to me. First of all, that is both arrogant and ignorant to say. How could you know how others perceive you. I assume you didn't _try_ to be, but if you behave the way you do in this thread, you _are_ unpleasant, _at least_ to me. Second of all, this is the kind of banter that makes you appear insecure and fall prey to trolls, while others will tend to avoid you. > And lastly, he's Silver 2. Yeah, I don't care. I know people with physical disabilities who can never reach something higher than bronze, it's not always their mind. Sure, it's hard to assess a higher Elo that you could never play in, but it's not impossible. I once used this ad hominem and I regret it to this day. > but i won't shy away from putting them in their place If that's what it feels like, I have to disappoint you. You are not achieving it. You look desperate, chidlish and arrogant trying to put someone _"in their place"_ on a forum. There is no point in trying that. There is no reward for achieving it. And it's not your authority either. Be nice. Offer rebuttals. There is nothing better than being nice AND correct. Being arrogant AND correct is a straight downgrade. Also, if you want to convince people, you have to make them like you. If they hate you, they have a reason to not even listen to you. Which he just did.
Elikain (EUNE)
: >I don't like how you accused him of being all bark, when barking so much yourself. I don't think you understand what idioms mean. I backed up my point, he didn't. That's what it means. When i replied to someone, i came with my explanation on why i think Karma is who i think she is. This guy just wanted to start an argument for the sake of creating conflict. When i told him to explain himself, he chose not to in the most laughable way possible. It isn't my problem he's presented himself as being mentally inferior. He shouldn't have said anything if he didn't want to discuss anything. >Even as the enchanter she was, she worked best in sololanes, due to needing the gold. Karma never needed the gold. Her previous kit was front loaded with a lot of free AP. And the meta was simpler, you didn't even have to try hard to win your lane and take over the game with your ADC. In case you've forgotten, that was the time where winning your lane actually mattered more than today. She doesn't need the gold now. If she's pretending to be the damage/utility support with less gold and she's doing fine, more gold to spend on better items won't ruin her. Therefore she can play both roles, without sacrificing anything. The point is that her support role is more popular because of the meta. When Faker starts playing her mid (like he took Lulu on mid), you'll see the sheepish masses instantly praising the new meta.
> I don't think you understand what idioms mean. You would be wrong then. You also missjudged why he does it. He just realized you were too far removed from his position that he didn't even bother trying to convince you anymore. > Karma never needed the gold. Compared to other supports, who always had AoE stuns, huge knockbacks or targeted lockdowns, her value came from healing, shielding and providing damage, which is more directly impacted by gold. It's better today, but you can still feel it. > In case you've forgotten, that was the time where winning your lane actually mattered more than today. The only thing those sentences are reminding me of is why Svarovsko didn't bother with you at all. You are not a pleasent discussion partner. > The point is that her support role is more popular because of the meta. When Faker starts playing her mid I have read you stating that _"it's only the meta"_ multiple times now. The meta exists for a reason. Faker picked her for a reason. It's not some random thing.
: Hey SilverSquid, seems like Malzahar is heading down the same path as Karma. Nerfing solo lane rather than nerfing/fixing the support lane. A lot of people are upset by this and seeing all the feedback has a striking resemblance of what Karma has been going through, from Mid laner rebalanced into a Support, with a dedicated small fanbase before even the rework, Riot not understanding his complex identitiy, and "experiment with changes until it works" while ignoring Malzahar Mains' advise as to how to handle the situation. > [{quoted}](name=Denarius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i1OpWsbE,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-05T07:25:15.894+0000) > > Remember when Malzahar was a niche anti assassin mage mid laner played by a small but dedicated base of fans with favorable match ups into many of Riot's clear favorites like Yasuo but even or bad match ups into long range poke mages. Remember that? Remember also when Malzahar could be played in the jungle as an AD mage that scaled into a split pusher that specialized in melting towers by swarming voidlings, with a high skill floor but rewarding ceiling? Remember that? > > Last tweet by David Capurro in May "Probably hotfixing Malzahar tomorrow. Is he OP in mid lane as well? Or mostly in the jungle?" > > lol, truly a job well done. Just give it up, David Capurro has long forgotten who Malzahar even is, the only people who care are the handful of Malzahar players that were there since before the rework, praying he wouldn't fuck him up like they did 3/4 "juggernauts" and watching as Riot's neurotic balance team fumbled again and again trying to fix David Capurro's mistakes while he was hiding in a corner somewhere preparing to rework the assassins (good work there too lmao). This seems like a really good topic and time for you to bring up another post on Karma. I also learned some interesting things that could also be used for Karma in what Riot seems to be doing wrong, definitely something worth looking into and take a few notes for later. Another thing I wanted to bring up people seem to be arguing that Karma was never a mid laner to begin with and was always considered a support (there are people arguing that she is a mid laner). I really hope this doesn't effect Karma in the future, but I am glad people are arguing that she is a mid laner utility mage. Link to one of the discussions if you're interested in checking it out. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/i1OpWsbE-malzahar-nerfs-need-to-be-made-to-support-malz-only?comment=0005000100000000 I know this is an old thread, but it may seem that my conclusion of what Riot thinks may have some truth to it and it may not be a misinterpretation. One of my fear may be coming true where the community is starting to believe Karma is a support rather than a mid laner (of course we went over the "class isn't the same as a role" topic, but you know what I mean by this). I do believe this is just from Riot's "advertising" Karma as such, which is what I believe is making people change their opinion of what Karma should be played as.
This is very disheartening to read. Poor Malz mains. I feel for them. > this seems like a really good topic and time for you to bring up another post on Karma. You want me to create another thread that tries to side with (old) Malz mains? I mean sure, that could get us a few likes from their community, but it's not quite what I am aiming for with my threads. Or am I missing something?
Elikain (EUNE)
: Wondering who's ignorant here. While i explained both times my point of view, you yourself had explained nothing. And for no apparent reason. If you can easily shut me down, why not do so? The most likely explanation is because you are bullshitting through your teeth. That's apparent from your statement: >no need to waste my time explaining you what was The moment you went with "i know shit but i won't bother explaining it" is the moment you buried yourself. I will just going to provide your final resting place a nice flower on the top. Now one question remains: why did you even want to participate in this conversation when you clearly don't want to converse? _**Basically, you're all bark but no dog.**_ The explanation below that i'm leaving you with is more for my own state of mind. I don't like leaving things unfinished. I'm not too generally concerned about your reply as i'm certain you won't have anything of value to share, otherwise we wouldn't have been in this predicament in the first place. --- All of Karma's Shield Bomb damage went to her Q instead. That was nothing more than a power transfer, which allowed Karma to have fair damage that can't be easily done to the enemy while giving her a lot of utility to boot, stabilizing both her mid and support roles equally. What's exactly the thing that makes her better at one particular role? _**Nothing.**_ She could have done both without any problems and still can. I've played her when she was released, i mained her then and i played her after her rework, both mid and bot. She can play both positions without any problems. Her kit is what makes her versatile and Riot reworked her in such a way so that both positions are available to her. The only thing that "dictates" her position is the _**meta**_, which we already established that it's not a decree but just a popular way to play the specific group of champions.
I don't like how you accused him of being all bark, when barking so much yourself. Like half of that comment was sophisticated insults and ensuring you display mental superiority... I think clever people are usually clever enough to not feel like proving it to a stranger on the internet. But let's not talk about what I like, let's talk arguments: Karma has been played mainly midlane for all of her existance, excluding the last couple of patches. And yes, the fact that she is played there is important, because otherwise Blitz would be a toplaner and Alistar a jungler. Even as the enchanter she was, she worked best in sololanes, due to needing the gold. This would suffice to make that statement _"[Karma was] never [a] mid lane mage to begin with"_ sound foolish. Additionally, the fact that she can still work in sololanes is not the point, it's the way Riot disregards her playstyle and identity. It's not only about lanes, you know?
: Ki is actually just life force. When the DBZ characters use power blasts and stuff that's Ki. Ryu's Hadouken is Ki. Ki is mostly just associated with martial arts, but really Ki is just a word the Japanese use to describe the universe energy within all things.
Due to your input, I studied this matter for a while. As with everything in alternative medicine and fantasy worlds, the use and understanding of it changes based on where you are coming from. And it's generally broader used than I believed (especially when used in real life). Additionally, I thought Chi and Ki are different things, when in actually, it's just the Chinese and Japanese version respectively. While I still think my assessment makes most sense (for now), I can not deny Tyrek the use of this word, as it fits _multiple_ instances that I came across. And it seems arrogant. Thank you for correcting me.
: I'm really glad you like it. About the ki, sorry for the blunder there. I was thinking that since fellow Ionian Shen used ki for his spiritual talents, that Karma used a similar method for her skills. I can change the word "ki" to "soul" or "spirit" if you want.
I don't think that's necessary. After King disagreed with my assesment of Ki I looked further into it. Apparantly Ki is used for a much broader amount of things than I had been informed about, so my understanding was incomplete. Please do not change your beautiful story based on this (changing some rhymes would be a pain, I assume). I will rather spend some time studying this and exploring the possibility Karma using Ki. In the end, I love alliterations. I just feel a bit mindfucked. Sorry for the trouble.
: Hey, sorry this took so long. But here it is: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/yrAwAExT-karma-the-enlightened-one Hope you like it.
What are you talking about? That was barely over a week. That's pretty fast, assuming you have a life outside of writing^^!
: Karma, The Enlightened One.
That was beautifully written. I like the way you paint into people's minds. It's something I should thrive to do more often. ~~One small criticism (because I just can't shut up, ever):~~ ~~_**Ki**_ is the representation of your physical power and potential and thus usually used by monks; they train their body to perform magic-like wonders. ~~ ~~This is one of the reasons DBZ fighters are ripped beyond proportions.~~ ~~Karma, on the other hand, draws her power directly from her soul. Put simply; she doesn't need to do push ups to do dem hadoukens, she has to train her understanding, will and resolve. That's why calling anything she does "ki" feels incredibly weird to me.~~ **EDIT:** Is frequently used not only for your life force and bodily potential, but also for your spiritual connection and similar things. This fits better than I believed.
: I just realized what the most controversial VGU will be
> The problem with Karma was a total lack of theme. Hold on a second. Do you mean Old Karma had no theme, or that the New One didn't introduce sufficient ones?
Jaredc3 (NA)
: She has plenty of outplay potential, because you she could heal and shield and stun and slow, you can't touch her
You lost me at _"stun"_ And no, "not being able to touch her" is not outplay either. It's unhealthy at worst and predictable at best.
: Marksmen don't need a buff, supports need (another) rework
> high damage mage supports like Malz, Karma, Brand, and Zyra. Can we get those back to being played (mainly) midlane please? I didn't fathom to ever hear Malz being called a "mage support" and it doesn't feel right.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ERoMbXPm,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-04T03:08:47.765+0000) > > Problems she didn't have before Riot started removing shieldbomb from her, pushing some inappropriate CC onto her and overbuffing what's left of her. That's a particularly common in the support role, as far as I am aware. Removing damage and forcing you into being a sustain bot? Yes, that is one of the main issues with support right now, and Karma got it right in the chin. > Close. > My issues is that she is a mixed bag of missed opportunities, missunderstood characteristics and mistreated thematics. Whenever Riot tried to improve her, they kept making her stronger and healthier (well, most of the time), but robbing her of what made her Karma in the first place. She appears to be one of the few champions out there, that lost character, depth and thematics over the years. And that's contrary to everything Riot keeps preaching whenever they do a touchup on any champion. I mean, Riot does a shit ton of crap that's contrary to the shit they preach. Difference is that, when it comes to support and its champions, it's so blatant it's insulting. At least with other reworks, even if they fail, you can see that they were *trying* to deliver something good. For supports, it's decision after decision that makes me wonder "Why is this a 5v5 game again if you obviously don't want it to be?".
> Removing damage and forcing you into being a sustain bot? I mean, Karma is still a pokelane, not sustain.... > At least with other reworks, even if they fail, you can see that they were trying to deliver something good. I dunno, I happened to live through the "I buy boots and wards all game" times of supporting, and I think it has become better. But an enchanter update is direly needed. Or maybe I am missing some updates you are talking about, if so, please remind me.
: Like I said: Karma's a support as well as a mid AND a top. When she's in the support role, she's going to reflect the role's problems. Tank Karma and mid Karma all have decent viability to them, as well as support. That's not the issue. Your issue is that support Karma, the one in the limelight, is *most likely fucking boring and stale*. Am I around the ballpark on that?
> When she's in the support role, she's going to reflect the role's problems. Problems she didn't have before Riot started removing shieldbomb from her, pushing some inappropriate CC onto her and overbuffing what's left of her. That's a particularly common in the support role, as far as I am aware. > Your issue is that support Karma, the one in the limelight, is most likely fucking boring and stale. Close. My issues is that she is a mixed bag of missed opportunities, missunderstood characteristica and misstreated thematics. Whenever Riot tried to improve her, they kept making her stronger and healthier (well, most of the time), but robbing her of what made her Karma in the first place. She appears to be one of the few champions out there, that lost character, depth and thematics over the years. And that's contrary to everything Riot keeps preaching whenever they do a touchup on any champion.
: That won't be fixed unless Riot actually takes the time to address weaker champs in the role, as well as the lack of item diversity.
That would be nice. But not pushing Karma into there in the first place would've been nice too
: Why do Sona, Karma, and Morgana get free poke? How is that balanced?
What do you mean "free"? Sona has to go in AA range, Karma has to hit a decently hard skillshot or spend her mantra to make it easier and Morgana has a skillshot or laughable puddle damage. How is that better/worse than other botlane mages/enchanters/stuff?
Jaredc3 (NA)
: I play karma mid a lot, it's not just mantra e, it's poking and healing. You can 2v1 easily with manta w and there is lots of outplay potential with her kit
Poking and healing has nothing to do with "being a leader". Being able to 2v1 is not a theme. And no, her outplay potential is minimal, since she has no mechanically deep abilities, no dashes or instant/hard CC, nor does she have unpredictable combos.
Aquafuge (NA)
: doesn't Karma's w deal damage, and when it gets enhanced by her r it gives lifesteal/spellvamp .
Yes W does damage. No it doesnt give spellvamp, it regains Karma a % of her missing hp at the start and finish of the tether.
: It is on purpose. To the very least, she's a strong and viable pick in that hole.
But a boring one, that also pushes out other viable picks in that hole. From a design perspective this doesn't make sense.
Hiemal (NA)
: @Meddler & @Reav3 - Karma is Not a Full-Fledged Support Here is why.
I am not comfortable calling anyone a _"real"_ main or not. But it seems like the hole Karma once filled (even after her rework) is empty now, and the one she is filling now is crowded with other enchanters. And I have yet to be explained to, why that is. Because it can't be on purpose, right? Right?
: @Riot What is Karma's theme officially?
She throws green blobs of.... magic? I dunno. Without her baiting passive she lost her karmic touch. Without mantra giving her opposite effects she lost her dualistic touch. I just... don't....know? Is continuously "mantra E" on your allies justifying being a leader? Isn't a leader someone who LEADS people into battle, not someone standing in the back shouting "you do that"? Isn't that rather, what a _boss_ does, not a _leader_? Is repeatedly lobbing RQs at enemies providing anything thematicly that Lux or other champs don't already provide? And what the hell is tank Karma supposed to be? I have so many questions and so few answers.
: It is a perfectly good time to teach people to stop complaining about champions and play the game. The game is balanced and I'm tired of people saying it isn't. Each champion has its own play style and every champion has a play style that is used to counter that champion. I've made some stupid posts in the past but I have now realized that if you have fun with this game then you will become a much better summoner.
> It is a perfectly good time to teach people to stop complaining about champions and play the game. And why not play the game instead of complaining about people complaining? It feels kind of arrogant to say. And self contradictory. > The game is balanced and I'm tired of people saying it isn't. Perfect balance is unachieveable, so it can never truly be balanced. It's a bit like the tides. But it's fair for people to point out the things they perceive as flawed. > Each champion has its own play style and every champion has a play style that is used to counter that champion. We are only getting into some dangerous territory when some champions lose their beloved play style for no good reason. Also playstyles aren't quite as stone-paper-scissor-y as you state here. > I've made some stupid posts in the past but I have now realized that if you have fun with this game then you will become a much better summoner. Coming to terms with the stupidity in the world sure helps one's peace more than any achieved goal. But the kindling flame of fighting for your passions is a useful driving force as well.
: Hmmmm... it's a pipe organ, isn't it! Dang big toaster you got there...
**W**ould **I** **E**ver **N**ot **E**xplain **R**iddles? **D**o **I** **C**onstantly **K**ill **Jokes**?
: Which organ?
**P**robably I can **E**nlighte**N** you about what it **IS**.
: Personally, I hope that they'll revisit her theme and character concept again in the future. While it may have looked and sounded good on paper, the mantle of decorum just feels and looks out of place in game. It never really translated nor did it add to Karma's fantasy of a "spiritual leader" that Riot has pegged her to be. Instead, it looks like this huge burden of an object she has to drag across the map for no reason other than clarity for her ult being available or not. That brings me to posing this question; is Karma's spirit fire/energy a resource inherently acquired through her willpower, through years of practice with her elders? Or is it something that she actually requires summoning, drawing from a source say the mantle itself? I ask that only because I'm trying to make sense of why she has to carry that backdrop with her. Based on her present and current lore, it seems like she herself is innately blessed with the ability to summoning her "powers/abilities", that which I am thankful for. It gives her an interesting dynamic to her otherwise "just another human in the game" character. So why did Riot chose to have her carry the mantle again? Another argument that can be presented based on lore and previous discussions is that Karma is a leader. Therefore, she carries the mantle of decorum as a symbol of her status and rank. Now, I would've been fine with that if the execution of the mantle was done right. Previously, her old concept and model had her carrying it just perfect. It was closely attached to her dress making it look like a part of her elaborate dress set, complimenting her entire appeal/outfit. It made it look like it belonged (that this is how Ionian Royalty looks like) and just how she carried it back then (through her beautiful and detailed animations) evoked that majestic feel we ought to have felt when we saw Karma on the battlefield. Now it's just an animated object that she somehow magically carries (or drag) around with her. I get that we have to suspend our disbelief when it comes to some of the "fantasy" aspects of this game but even some of them just don't completely make sense even in the context of the game. Also, Karma is not THE leader of Ionia. She's one of the many figureheads of this beautiful nation. So why is she carrying the mantle of decorum? Does this mean that every other leader are carrying the same object behind them? I personally would like to see it go. It's such a distraction to her beautiful model and serve no purpose other than it being a neon sign telling other players that her ult is available for use. I hope that they'll bring back her fans for it was one of the iconic things about her that people have associated with this champion. It also had a purpose, both as a weapon for her and an object of value. The fans served as a reminder of the time she decided to take action against the invasion of Noxus, that she will no longer will sit idle as her people suffers. It also is an item of sentimental value, being something from her humble background, from her parent's antique shop. These little details gave so much character to Karma as a champion and made her more relatable to her fans. She wasn't someone who was battle oriented but she chose to rise up and defend her nation with whatever talents and means she had. She is a leader who came from a not so entitled background but she overcame the odds and is now our fame Duchess. In her present state, the fans can be used as weapons that she can channel her spirit fire on to produce more focused versions of her abilities, similar to how wizards rely on their wands for their magic. Currently, the combined visuals of the mantle and her producing energy (Hadoukens? :P) through her hands contradicts each other with the themes they are trying to present. The energy she uses in game makes her appear to be a monk of some sort like Lee-Sin, but the mantle just being there behind her makes her look somewhat of a fighter/Tank since the only other champions with objects behind them are Taric, Irelia, and Jarvan, and all of them can initiate and be front and center. I'm aware that she can tank, but she does it differently compared to those three. TL:DR Bring back her fans for they actually served a purpose. Disassemble the mantle or leave it in that sacred room where Ionia houses their emblems. As far as the discussion for her kit goes, I'll leave that entirely up to Riot as well. With the lack of discussion from them, I'm thinking Karma's current kit is Riot's intention of what Karma's niche is all along. Keep up the good fight though. I hope they'll eventually be open to discussing that as well.
Erm, I don't know if you are aware of this, but the Mantle of Decorum should be an honorable symbol carried by valued members of the society. Irelia has one of them for a reason too. I am not too much of a visual guy, so this is probably all I can say about that. > I hope that they'll bring back her fans for it was one of the iconic things about her that people have associated with this champion. It felt so disingenious, when they said _**"For the fans, as I said, we added them back in as an homage, for those fond of them. We really wanted to push the Mantle of Decorum, and her Mantra style gameplay. And who knows? Maybe this will open the space for another fan champion to blow us all away?"**_, which basically translates to _**"We ruined her, but we will be sure to salvage the good parts for other champions"**_, like they did with her shieldbomb {{champion:427}} , lvl6 abilities {{champion:126}} and duality theme {{champion:203}} . > With the lack of discussion from them, I'm thinking Karma's current kit is Riot's intention of what Karma's niche is all along. This is confusing. I mean, sure they apparrantly want Karma to be this enchanter that can occasionally build AP, that provides strong early game poke and some team AoE shielding and speed for teamfights in lategame. But this just convinces me, that they forgot Sona exists, because that's _exactly_ what she does. Why do they push her into a role that's already taken?
Hiemal (NA)
: @Meddler & @Reav3 - The Karma Injustice of 2013 and Continued Injustice of 2017
> Yes, we did add them in, on all her skins. Yes, as some of you have guessed, it is only on her Dance. We wanted to give you guys an homage to the fans, as they were a key element to her in the past. > We did initially remove the fans, as Morello quipped in the Leak thread. We weren't fully prepared for how fond of them some of you were; which is a point we've heard loud and clear, and will be discussing further in-depth for future Relaunches and Visual Upgrades. Allow me to jump into the fray here for a second. On our champions, especially older ones, we have very iconic elements. Things that when you think of the champion, you can't help but think of. This can go one way or another, either good or bad, weak or strong. This feels so.... stupid. They straight up admit that they didn't ask what people loved about her visuals and that they failed to preserve her. But their reaction to it feels like _"well, we fucked up, let's do it better on the next champion, sorry we ruined your main :) "_ It's one of the reasons Karma feels like a failed experiment. Yes, Riot might have learned some useful lessons by that rework of hers, but then deciding to just leave her the way she is feels incredibly careless. They didn't even know why people liked her. That's the reason. That's exactly the reason, why Karma is a decent champion now but a really bad Karma, that feels lackluster. Why she is a good champion, but a horrible rework. They didn't care to ask first and they didn't care to cuddle with us after they fucked us (and that falls onto something between rude and rape, I guess). The worts part; They did it again, 2 years later, when removing her shieldbomb. It's like they didn't learn at all. But hey, she is fine guys, she has seen play in LCS, haha. Jesus. PS: The RW changes you quoted are from her PBE before 5.10 hit and weren't the final changes. The damage increase/teamheal would've been actually interesting and somewhat thematic, whereas that CC increase is just missplaced and boring....
: Well I read your poem and rework idea, and I really like them. I suppose my only other question is what part of her old kit was most iconic? About my project, I'm trying to carve out a niche for myself in the Concepts and Creations board, as one of the board's literature writers. As such, I wrote a poem for a Shen main I know, here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/aQG7B2q7-shen-a-journey It was partly an homage to the old Shen as well as giving Shen mains a kind of hope that people still cared and that he wasn't forgotten. After the positive reception I got, I wanted to write a similar one for another champ. Karma came to mind. As I got info from the old Shen from a Shen main, I wanted to get Karma info from a Karma main. I see you already made a poem though, but I want to take a stab at it myself.
> I suppose my only other question is what part of her old kit was most iconic? That's hard to say. As I said, her shieldbomb was her most iconic damage spell. Shielding key targets while using the opportunity to hurt some badies felt dope. But the _tripwire_ style on her W was incredibly unique too. And since W increased your MS for a straight 4s and could be used on minions, you would usually "walk" your minions back to lane, like a dog. Finally, the combination of increased AP on low hp and a missing%hp heal gave her the name _"Queen Bait"_. It's not even close to what tower diving sustain tank Karma has today, as she would run out of mantra charges, but it was enough for some well planned (and better timed) healing bursts under (her own) tower. There were so many interesting things about her, that the decent champion Karma, that we know today, feels like an empty hull of missed opportunities. It's so hard to explain to someone, who only started playing in Season 6, what's wrong with her, when she objectively is a good champion, but a really bad Karma. > As such, I wrote a poem for a Shen main I know, here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/aQG7B2q7-shen-a-journey That's really good! The rhymes are dope, the story is touching, the writing is easy to follow. Only criticism I can think of, is that your meter seems off most of the time, but it feels like that's on purpose? > I see you already made a poem though, but I want to take a stab at it myself. Don't ever let that stop you! I would love to see a different take on it. My poem was very self centered and not as much of a story as your poem was. I was mainly writing about why I like her and what I do on the boards. You, however, could highlight some of her character and create a tangeable story, if you use that style you have shown. Looking forward to it!
: Okay cool. 1. What was her previous kit? 2. Was she the first rework Riot has done? 3. What do you feel her theme was previously? Do you think it should be implemented with tue modern Karma? 4. What do you feel was the most substantial buff or nerf since her rework? 5. What drew you to playing Karma? 6. What do you feel she should focus around if you were to rework her yourself ?
> What was her previous kit? You can find her full previous kit [here](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Karma) under the _History_ tab complete with her old champion spotlight. Summed up quickly: * Passive: gain up to 130 bonus AP based on missing hp * Q - damage cone - RQ heals Karma and all hit allies based on missing hp * W - tether to speed allies or slow enemies, deal damage by making enemies "trip" over it - RW - double the speed/slow * E - basic shield - RE - add AoE damage * R - mantra, but it had two stacks and didn't level, instead the other abilities had 6 levels, like Jayce does today. > Was she the first rework Riot has done? Yes and no. She was the first "real" VGU and looking back it felt very experimental, hasty and incomplete. Meddler mentioned that they didn't have the resources to do it right, compared to today when they have designated teams for the job. Before Karma there were several small scale reworks, (TF, Evelyn and Ryze changed a lot). Watch some of [Jeremy - Gaming Curious](https://www.youtube.com/user/GamingCurios) youtube videos for more information on certain champions, or visit [Riots champion update schedule](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202294884-Champion-Update-Schedule) to see a full list. > What do you feel her theme was previously? Do you think it should be implemented with tue modern Karma? She was a mix of a lot of _asia type_ things. Fanweapons, nobility, grace, polite&political sternness, budda's enlightenment, yin-yang (duality), balance, wisdom and of course; karma. There was a lot to her. Maybe too much _"real life"_ stuff for Riot to keep. They replaced her black-and-white color style with a purple-turquoise one, to distance her from the real world and give her their own Ionian take on duality. I think some of those had to go for sure and some were kept loosely. But they weren't replaced properly. Personally I enjoyed the fanweapons a lot, but they weren't integral to her actual playstyle, in contrast to what this (albeit brilliant) [youtube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRr3ruN97nU) would make you believe. Not having a champion using fanweapons is a waste though. They are a really cool and thrilling concept. And not giving Karma anything in return for taking them from her was a big mistake too. The one thing I would love to return to her is her shieldbomb (that was still there for over 2 seasons after her rework) and her general battlemage/enchanter identity. The addition of range and CC didn't do her any good, imo. > What do you feel was the most substantial buff or nerf since her rework? The shield buff in [patch 6.6](http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-66-notes) is what pushed her out of the darkness into LCS, which was a buff the Karma community kind of protested. But arguably it was the "most substantial" one. Karma hadn't received any nerfs until recently. Let me rephrase that; Karma didn't get ANY straight up NERFS to her kit for over 5 years out of the 6 that she is around. The thing that pain the community most, looking back, were her changes in [patch 5.10](http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-510-notes) though. A power neutral "update" to her kit, that removed her bonus damage from RW and RE (shieldbomb), castrating mage Karmas damage options and removing her most iconic damage spell. all while adding a CC option she doesn't need (RW) and leaving her RE feel unthematic and incomplete. She wasn't used much from then on until the buff overkill in 6.6, that I mentioned. > What drew you to playing Karma? You can read my poem[ "I used to main Karma" ](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/rU1Wng8a-i-used-to-main-karma-its-still-a-poem-but-kind-of-a-discussion)if you wanna go full detail. Put shortly; I love duality. I love to be able to carry, even if it is harder than with other champions, but I could never bring myself to play champions that can not help out or save other people. I love being flexible and filling different roles, depending on what my team is lacking. And additionally, I love playing champions that require a lot of game understanding and decision making. Karma used to provide all those things for me. And maybe I am also a hipster who loves using underplayed champions. Maybe. A little. > What do you feel she should focus around if you were to rework her yourself ? Her subclass should be **battlemage/enchanter** Her in game identity should focus on damage/protection or health manipulating/reflecting (well....karma, you know?). Her visuals should build on the Ionian twin dragons, that exist in her lore, are a beacon for Ionia and fit her as a leader. I tried to realize all of this in my very popular [Twin Dragon Karma](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) rework. You can judge for yourself, whether I succeeded or not. Since a rework is unrealistic at this point, I would be happy with [small scale work](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma) too. ______________________________ ______________________________ Let me know if I answered any of your questions poorly or the wrong way. Otherwise I hope I could help you with your project, whatever it might be.
: You're just the guy I need then. I'm doing a small project and it involves Karma. I would like to ask you a couple of questions about her if it's okay with you.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b30E82cV,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-01-27T23:58:33.634+0000) > > My problem is with Riot's thinking. They have been consistently (over)buffing her support qualities while removing solo-lane options and depth. For no good reason. And now praise her for working in a solo-lane, when this is where she mainly used to be played at for most her time. Either they forgot that for a second while writing this post, or their assessment of Karma is scewed. Perhaps I don't quite understand what solo lane Karma is suppose to do. (I'm a little bias, I am a Support main) As someone who enjoys that duality. I often find myself, playing her in either position, but still doing so for the same reasons, being that utility mage. (Where Solo lane simply means more AP and more Damage.) Though I think one of the potential issues of that Utility mage is that they are almost never useless. If they fall behind on farm, they still have the Utility that they would otherwise have, playing as support. (I think that might be the reason why Riot doesn't particularly want to give them a good laning phase)
> Perhaps I don't quite understand what solo lane Karma is suppose to do. Well, you kind of said it already. If Riot ever decided to build onto her battlemage/enchanter identity, they could allow her to deal damage and offer protection at the same time, no matter in what lane. Some more in midlane and some less in botlane. How it currently is, though, is that her damage doesn't follow a healthy or fulfilling pattern in midlane and this damage identity gets basically lost on support Karma. Similarly her protection identity is getting disturbed by her poke and disruptor qualities, that needn't be there. And as a champion that offers early-game-poke while later on bringing AoE speed and shielding to the team, she is stepping on Sonas toes big time.
: karma : full magic pen runes , full ap = 1 Q+R = 500 dmg to adc on level 6 =] how do i know? i used to play a lot of karma on s6
Did I make my point so poorly that people think this thread is about Karma's balance instead of Riot's idea of her?
: Personally, I really don't think of either or, She's a Utility mage that can go either or, and it would be okay to have that duality. The issue with that duality is that it's so incredibly swingy based on the state of the meta. Since a) if damage is meta, teams won't favor a utility mage in the solo lane. and b) The recent buffs to enchanter options, enhance her ability to support. and c) Historically speaking, any champ with multiple options never seemed to last, as Riot was obligated to balance out the most OP of those options.
My problem is with Riot's thinking. They have been consistently (over)buffing her support qualities while removing solo-lane options and depth. For no good reason. And now praise her for working in a solo-lane, when this is where she mainly used to be played at for most her time. Either they forgot that for a second while writing this post, or their assessment of Karma is scewed.
: the real question is are you?
Playing her since before her rework. Mained her for 2 season. Have been working with the Karma community for over a year now. Try me.
: Karma is perfectly fine. You jsut have to adjust your play style a little to lane against her. Not a hard lane all. Just dodge her q's and you'll be fine.
When has this turned from a discussion about _"Riot's assessment of Karma"_ to _"general laning tips against Karma"_?
Rioter Comments
Hiemal (NA)
: @Riot Games & Live Game Update Team - Restore Karma's Shield Bomb
The removal of shieldbomb was one of the most confusing and unexplained mechanics murdering changes I have seen in LoL, that wasn't even once adressed by the developers. I just don't get it. If it was so bad, why did it return on Ivern? If it wasn't so bad, why was it removed? It was her most iconic damage spell before and after her rework.... Riot, why?
: We Need Another MYMU
{{champion:3}} Galio is up for a VGU, right after Warwick {{champion:136}} Aurelion Sol and {{champion:268}} Azir are in line for mini reworks akin to Shyvana and Alistar {{champion:43}} Karma feels like she has been forcefully made more bland and problematic over the years, just so she can be part of the LCS or something {{champion:74}} Heimer is weird, since he has a very unique playstyle. I can not judge what he needs, but just like with Karma, there is probably some potential to make him _great_ instead of _okay_. Not saying that Mages are fine, but other groups probably need more distinction first. That was the whole point of this update, btw, to make them all have their own roles instead of stepping on each other's toes. Enchanters are huge at this. Vanguards and Divers have been mentioned too.
Hiemal (NA)
: @Riot Meddler Why is Karma being ignored and Reksai Getting Mini-Rework Over Her?
Because Karma has been a mediocre problem for the meta since them finally overbuffing her not even a year ago While Rek'sai has been problematic for the meta ever since her release about 2 years ago. It may be true that Karma is a bundle of failed improvement attempts, half a dozen missjuged changes, an endless stream of missed opportunities and lacking thematics, but this is only affecting one champion. Rek'sai affected the whole game. Not saying I agree with this, but this is probably the unsatisfying reason you are looking for.
: Can we just please change tank karma
I mean, with a symbol of balance tucked onto her back and a history of having access to damage&protection spells, it is kind of fitting. Not that I think Tank Karma is healthy or something, lol.
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SilverSquid

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