: I can understand needing to nerf Maokai because he's just generically powerful and reducing the viability of other champions at the highest levels of play. Believe me, I get that. But he's not a Vanguard by any stretch. If you remove his current ultimate it will make him less of a warden, to be sure, but his kit does not offer the level of initiation that a vanguard is expected to provide. His Twisting Advance is definitely a reliable initiation technique, but he has very little AOE crowd control (just his Arcane Smash, and it's not a very wide AOE) and his initiation is strongly limited by range. Seems like Maokai is invading the list of reworked Vanguards because of convenience on your part and that will crowd out the actual expectations we had of the update as you told us, which was that you would be giving stronger identity and definition to champions who all felt like some form of Amumu. Actual vanguards. First you only do three updates, and now one of them is to a warden and not a vanguard? This is incredibly disappointing. I was actually looking forward to champions like Rammus, Zac and Leona getting more diverse sets of skills from one another.
We actually said this was a Tank update not a Vanguard update. Though we will be focusing more on Vanguards, but Wardens are still on the table as well.
Levost (NA)
: I disagree with the classification of Maokai as a primary Vanguard, so I am very glad you are taking pains to emphasize he leans toward a Warden also. His lore is about preserving specific areas and punishing what goes after them. He's a Vanguard in the sense he's more proactive, not that he goes in - he's about locking down to keep people OFF specific areas. Case in point, the story with the flower. That's my two cents at least, but I'm having trouble believing this line of argument wasn't raised in office. Has this come up? Are you considering this discrepancy in how you've moved forward? If so, how has it influenced your decision making process? I'm very curious, and slightly worried...
I think he will still be a bit of a Vanguard/Warden Hybrid
Korios (EUNE)
: How big will be the Visual changes? Shen level changes or higher?
There will be no visual changes outside of VFX, he got a VU not that long ago
Daetnas (EUNE)
: Will Maokai be balanced for the top lane still, or will you shift his kit so he fits in the jungle more, like before his previous update?
We are currently testing him in both Top & Jungle so he will likely be viable in both. As to which role ends up his strongest role it's hard to say until he gets released into the wild and tons of people start playing him
: That Subclass post detailing all champs under which subclass placed him in the Warden section, what made you guys change your stance on him now. Will you guys ever update that post
His thematic felt more appropriate for a aggressive tank (Vengeful Treant.) That being said, like I mentioned above, he will probably be a bit of a Vanguard/Warden hybrid leaning a bit more towards a Vanguard.
Jeddy017 (NA)
: I just have to ask, do you guys still consider Maokai a Warden (protective tank)? Or will he be changed to be more like a Vanguard?
He should be primarily a Vangaurd as that matches his thematic better, but in the spectrum of Vanguards he probably leans more towards a Warden then others.
: @Reav3 Will Hextech Galio be brought up to Hextech Annie's level for his VGU?
The current plan is to keep the price the same but add re-colored VFX similar to what we did with some of the Warwick skins. The Visual theme will be updated to match the modern Hextech visual theme as well.
: {{champion:33}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:32}} are relatively outdated, do you think these would be good candidates?
For a roster update? Might be to dated. For a full VGU? Yes.
: so Braum, Tahm Kench, Alistar etc are all possible candidates?
They are in the class, though I think all 3 of those champions already have unique identities, and the primary goal of the roster updates is to give generalists a unique identity.
: > his did you just assume her gender, Good Sir?
: As a jungle/top player I am super hyped. I'm just wondering if riots plan for the future is larger champion reworks on smaller groups of champions what does that mean for subclasses where their are more champions that need updating/match their fantasy/etc. would some class updates have to happen again in a later season or would stragglers be in the champion update line? Can't wait to see Sej's kit <3
The goal now isn't to hit all the champions in the class. The goal is to define the class and select a few champions to create "good" versions of the class as well as get the classes itemization in a good place. After that we can use the guide to create new champions or future reworks. Smaller reworks will likely be done by Live Gameplay similar to the Alistar and Shyvana reworks recently.
: Hi REAV3 Will {{champion:421}} be one of the smaller scope ones?
No. Rek'Sai is being worked on though by the Live Gameplay team. Likely to be pushed closer to her fantasy of a diver rather then a Vanguard.
: Does that mean the big 3 this time will have even more work and will you guys also be touching Wardens this class update
: Super excited to see the tank reworks, particularly interested in seeing how you advanced the thematic of Sejuani being a cavalier with a badass mount as well as being a savage war leader. But aside from that, how many 'main reworks' can we expect to see from the Tank update? (along the lines of the Big Six from Mid-Season Magic and the Big Four from the Assasin preseason).
We are currently planning on 3 big reworks this time. All of them should be pretty high in scope similar to Talon/Kat, for example.
: Just out of curiosity, does Ahri ever come up in discussions about champs who need some work? I'm acknowledging straight up that her kit's aged just fine for the most part (I wouldn't cry if her passive and W were replaced completely), I'm just curious since she's my main.
: Random question: Would Riot ever change a champion's name in a rework?
: Is Kayle's gameplay really that bad that it's Tier 1? I mean, yeah having a heavily armored woman be a fragile DPS is weird, and yeah her kit is dated, but Tier 1?
I had a ask Riot awhile back that goes into why we choose the champions we choose for a rework. How bad/good the gameplay is isn't the only reason. The potential of the archetype if it was modernized is also a heavy driving factor. Old Warwick for example wasn't super unhealthy for the game but the potential of a modern version of Warwick and the Werewolf archetype made him Tier 1. The potential of modernizing the "Angel/Fallen Angel" theme is what makes them so high.
QMighty (NA)
: I''m happy to hear you're finally considering Jax to be in need of something. His visuals especially feel very outdated (specifically the animation on his w) and his kit could use a lot of work. Mostly he just seems like a really boring fighter with no real thematic. My question is, what are your thoughts on {{champion:54}} ? His kit is pretty boring when is ult isn't available and his visuals are pretty bad (his head is actually his nose). Any plans for him?
Malphite is definitely borderline Tier 1. He might even be Tier 1, this list isn't definitive or final or anything.
: Just wondering if you could say anything about why Irelia is on the list? To me her kit is perfect as is, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I have talked about this before so you could probably search my post history. Basically she is very stat-checky right now and she is also not really delivering on the "Telekinetic Blade" fantasy very well. We think a modern execution of her gameplay archetype has a ton of potential. This is similar to old Fiora. New Fiora is delivering much better on the "Grand Duelist" Fencing fantasy then old Fiora was, who was also very stat-checky.
: why Morgana? She's olding pretty well and as far as I know she's mostly balanced, no?
That's why I said it would be a Kayle/Morg duo update. Morgana's kit is in a pretty good spot but if we do a VGU on KAyle and her thematic gets updated then Morgana's would have to updated as well. Morgans update would be mostly on the Theme/Art side to go with Kayles VGU and maybe small gameplay tweaks if needed, though that could not even be needed.
: How do you even pick the champion who needs a VGU the most? People would argue that Rammus and Volibear don't really need a VGU while champions like Nunu and Mordekaiser seem to be struggling more.
I did a blog on it awhile back. I would agree that Nunu and Morde need it more, but not quite enough to separate them from Tier 1
Wartex (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Reav3,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yghB24Gs,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-01-31T19:52:15.736+0000) > > We were actually just talking about this the other day as we will have to begin early iteation into possible champions after Eve/Urgot pretty soon. This can and will change over time but I would say the new Tier 1 candidates are > > {{champion:84}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:39}} ({{champion:10}} {{champion:25}} Duo Update) {{champion:82}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:80}} Just saw this from the reddit comment (thanks for the post btw) On the list you mentioned, are they in any particular order? (from first to get updated to last?) If so, there are a few champions that i simply can't see a reason to be in the same list as they are not as bad as the others. Akali, Voli and Rammus are the ones i am specifically talking about, but kayle and morgana also don't need the work as badly as the others. If you look at Rammus and Voli, they are extremely more "cohesive" and "recent" looking compared to panth and mordekaiser (what are those?? (feet)) I think looking at the list, i think Cho, Morde, Mundo and Swain need work sooner than everyone else. Xin, panth, Nunu, and Irelia being the next ones. All the others after that.
: I'm so excited for Champion Updates coming in 2017 (as well as in 2018, going by this updated "Tier 1 candidates" list)! I know Urgot and Evelynn were foreseeable, but I got so excited reading _"We finally have a solid direction for Urgot that we want to go into production with."_ ;D Urgot was my first champion ever and my second main; He has a very special place in my heart and I've been really looking forward to his Update. I'm so happy it's finally coming. I'm also very happy that Larry "TheBravoRay" Ray will be working on Urgot and that Gem "Lonewingy" Lim will be working on Evelynn (or so it seems)- I personally feel like each of the two would really fit for the concept artist of each of, respectively, Urgot and Evelynn; I mean, that is when considering Larry's past with the Battlecast skinline as well as the pretty grim champions he's worked on over the years. And there's the fact, if I remember correctly, that Gem did an updated Evelynn concept a few years ago for exploration purposes. Plus, Gem's monster-girls rock- Namely Nami. Does the Maiden of the Mist count? ######_Woops. Posted from my old account without noticing._ - DwarvenGiant
You are correct in the BravoRay is working on Urogt and Gem "LoneWingy" is working on Eve :) I think they are perfect fits as well!
: > [{quoted}](name=Reav3,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yghB24Gs,comment-id=000400040003,timestamp=2017-01-31T20:23:05.942+0000) > > He would be better suited for a Class update since his art/theme are pretty modern What about Jax Reav3?. I mean the kit has not really changed much since beta. nor the visuals. am going to say hes just as outdated as xin zhao.
I think Jax moves up to Tier 2. Tier 2 champs could still get picked over Tier 1s if we have a really solid cool idea for a champion in Tier 2. Tier 1 are just the champions we will prioritize to give VGUs. If we can't find something cool we aren't going to go into production on a champion even if it is Tier 1. Urgot for example has been Tier 1 for longer then some champions that are already getting a VGU or already got one but we didn't want to go into production until we had something that we felt confident would be a better Urgot.
nbraun80 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Reav3,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yghB24Gs,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-01-31T19:52:15.736+0000) > > We were actually just talking about this the other day as we will have to begin early iteation into possible champions after Eve/Urgot pretty soon. This can and will change over time but I would say the new Tier 1 candidates are > > {{champion:84}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:39}} ({{champion:10}} {{champion:25}} Duo Update) {{champion:82}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:80}} Just curious, but why isn't aatrox in this category? Do you not consider him in as bad of a place as those or is the plan for him to be handled in a class update?
He would be better suited for a Class update since his art/theme are pretty modern
: Who is going to be working on the {{champion:28}} rework? and what are your thoughts on stealth now? Allot of changes were made to how stealth works in the game. {{champion:28}} stealth used to be really powerful compared to other stealth champs, but even though her passive was buffed(it's no longer canceled when she takes dmg) her Passive seems to be on the weaker side of stealth compared to other champs.
Currently the core pod on Eve is Stashu, LoneWingy and JohnODyin
: Now Urgot and Eve will get their long awaited VGUs. Can we have more info about other candidates?
We were actually just talking about this the other day as we will have to begin early iteation into possible champions after Eve/Urgot pretty soon. This can and will change over time but I would say the new Tier 1 candidates are {{champion:84}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:39}} ({{champion:10}} {{champion:25}} Duo Update) {{champion:82}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:80}}
: Do you think you would ever go back and work on Shen?Do you feel that Shens rework hit the mark?
Possibly one day. I think Shen is in a much better spot then he was pre-update. The old Q had a lot of game health issues. While Shen could still be improved he is in a much better spot then many other champions at the moment.
: Are there any other Champions you think fall in a similar spot as Morde? For example, to me it feels like characters such as Quinn and Valor and Corki have a lot of missed potential; Quinn and Valor because they don't really feel like a 'falconer duo' (more as just a single champion who speeds around shooting bird-shaped missiles) and Corki because he could function much more like a bombing air pilot with the right changes to his kit than he currently does (imagine a Corki who can fly over terrain and drop explosives!)
> Are there any other Champions you think fall in a similar spot as Morde? For example, to me it feels like characters such as Quinn and Valor and Corki have a lot of missed potential; Quinn and Valor because they don't really feel like a 'falconer duo' (more as just a single champion who speeds around shooting bird-shaped missiles) and Corki because he could function much more like a bombing air pilot with the right changes to his kit than he currently does (imagine a Corki who can fly over terrain and drop explosives!) I think Quinn and Corki need a lot of work on there themes. "Falcon Scout" and "Pilot" are just not super resonant. While I think there are a lot of elements we could keep if we ever get to VGUing them I think we could also make them a lot more exciting. Not sure how we would do that. I think they would be similar to a Sion/Yorick where we would want to take there theme to the next level. Also Corki flying over terrain dropping explosives sounds awesome.
GreenLore (EUW)
: So you consider "Death knight" to be his primary theme?I always thought of him more as an evil overlord. I mean sure he can easily be both(and even an animated suit of armor in addition to that),but I kinda feel like the "evil overlord"-thing simply fits him a lot better,because the "death knight"-theme kinda lacks the raw power and superiority of the evil overlord theme.
I think a death knight can also be a evil overlord (And Morde is and should always been super evil) but I think "Evil Overlord" is way to broad of a theme and also doesn't really convey gameplay very well. Simialr to how Taric is a "protector" but his theme is "paladin"
: How 'bout Mordekaiser. I feel his problem isn't lack of strong thematic but rather his kit not really delivering on that badass fantasy.
I agree, most of his current problems are kit related and not theme related. I think the current execution on his theme (Death Knight) is pretty poor though and needs a lot of work, similar to old warwicks execution on the werewolf theme.
: So, Do Galio, Urgot have theme problems?
: @Reav3 But what kind of VGU level is Fiddlesticks in? Ryze/Tristana level or Sion/Poppy level? Also mind if I share my Fiddlesticks rework concept?
Hmm, not sure as the state of Fiddle could be very different by the time we start working on him. Going on the current state of fiddlesticks, if we were to work on him now, I would say that he needs a lot of design work to be in a healthy state. His theme is pretty cool though so I don't think we would have to go too far with that. I would say his rework would be closer to a Warwick/Taric where he would need a good amount of gameplay changes but not as much on the theme side of things (Though like Warwick I think we could make him a lot scarier with a full VGU)
Akenero (NA)
: Urgot is currently being worked on by the WW team, and Evelynn will be worked on by the galio team(galio is very soon™) And look at champions like ezreal, lulu, corki, veigar, fiddlesticks, none of them need gameplay updates, but SERIOUSLY need visual updates.
Fiddlesticks definitely needs a gameplay update as well
: @Reav3, can we expect the update on the next VGU projects soon?
The blog about whats next for ChampUp should be soon, sometime next week I believe. I won't be going over runner-ups in it though. Happy to talk about it after the blog goes out though/ Talking about it now would make it too obvious who the next 2 are :P
: Thank you Riot for the WW skin changes
: Not warwick, but i have important question for you. 8/9 months ago riot repertoir said yo u werent planning rework skarner again. A few months later you said skarner was in your VGU List. So is he still in the VGU list or not? I asked several times about that but didnt get any answer. Thats important question for me and all skarner players so i would be happy if you could answer me.
I believe he meant we wouldn't be doing any small work on him. We do want to give him a full VGU someday though but he's not a super high priority at the moment.
BunnehRAWRR (EUNE)
: Is it me or are you guys deliberately ignoring all feral questions/suggestions?i mean people kinda took effort to write all that stuff yet they are not getting response.Also what was your reasoning making tundra a 520rp skin looking waaay better than a 975 legacy?Also your "tank must" policy goes down the drain with gray ww,so yeah plain bs,call it whatever you want feral WW looks more like a feral squirrel,A SQUIRREL!Or better yet bio-forged-muzzled-asylum Warwick anything is more fitting than feral,and putting legacy owners to shame.Also i apologize english is not my native language just had to give my 2 cents.
We actually added recolored VFX to Feral as well which are on PBE now. My point on the tanks wasn't that they had to be tank specifically just that we had to have something on his back and we went with the direction that he was a feral werewolf that were doing experiments on and he breaks free. We obviously didn't have to make them specifically injection tanks it's just the direction that we chose. We understand that it is a different take on Feral then previously but Base Warwick is also a different take on Warwick and even Grey is a very different take on previous Grey Warwick. With the skins in VGU we usually adjust the thematic to match the new base character. We chose the direction with Feral of a Feral Werewolf that was trying to be "subdued" by the injections in him and put in a muzzle but he was so Feral that no humans could ever subdue him and he breaks free and escapes. Instead of breaking out of chains her breaks out of a lab. Sure it's a different take on the concept but we think it hasn't been a bigger departure then some of his other skins. (Grey was not really medieval before and Firefang wasn't a giant Fire God, for example) I'm sorry that you don't like the direction we took but we currently don't plan on completely changing the skin, though like I mentioned above we did add much better VFX to it.
: And I thought I couldn't possibly love him even more. His color text was like a real hunt... Chasing, howling, leading the Runner where she needs to be... Then Blood and the Beast is unleashed. Did he save her? Was he the one tearing her apart? He does not know, he's just the monster killing off even worse kinds of monsters. Humans.
Skias (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Reav3,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=dE1Qls8A,comment-id=000b001900000000000000010000000e0000,timestamp=2017-01-17T00:39:41.242+0000) > > It&#x27;s because we can pair the kit changes with item and system changes as well. We can also give a whole class clearer strengths/weaknesses that make more sense in relation to each other when they are all updated at once. > > While we have definitely had some hit/misses on a per champion basis we feel the entire class is in a way better spot after the class update so they are very worth doing. Also even for the ones that miss they are usually in a healthier spot then before the rework (Kog being the exception) It currently feels like divers such as Camille really tread heavily on assassin's turf, doing their job better while being more survivable and having comparable damage. Are we going to see a damage reduction on divers in their update or are there any plans to make assassins an option over Divers? As it stands, Hecarim can easily 1 shot an ADC after Triforce with little effort or risk to himself.
Divers are similar to Assassins in many ways. A diver is meant to dive int other backline and kill a priority target. Assassins generally have higher mobility though and even better target selection and generally the ability to instantly or close to instantly get out (LB W, Zed W/R, Talon E, Kat Shunpo resets) If anything we should nerf the CD on whatever tools divers use to escape so that they can't do it as easily as Assassins. If a diver lacks the ability to kill a priority target after they dive in then they would just be Vanguards.
Sharjo (EUW)
: Here's my thing. Nothing about Soraka's lore is contradicted because nothing in her lore indicates the man called Warwick is the champion Warwick. Just another dude called Warwick in the lore. An easy temporary band aid for the problem of "Yeah but it's obviously Warwick" is to rename the guy in her lore. Call him Steve or Bob and all of a sudden she's fine for the time being.
We will be updating Soraka's lore (At least her short bio) in the future. Most likely sooner than later.
: Any {{champion:82}} love? Or is this going to be ignored like any other Mordekaiser post.
Hmmm I have replied to many Mordekaiser posts about him being a high priority for a full VGU in the future
: Zaun/Piltover event? Oooooh, do tell more!
It's a lore event. It's happening right now. It began last month with Camille
: Oh yeah one more thing, I've been eternally curious as how to pronounce your name, is it r- eve or do you actually count the 3
R-eve like Reaver but shortened
: When can we expect an updated "Update Schedule" for the site?
Right after the blog goes live
: Is there a reason that you guys are going to continue doing "class updates" rather than releasing reworks/tweaks at a steady pace? from what i can tell the class updates have been mostly misses IMO because it's way to many changes at one time. It seems like problem champs like {{champion:96}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:72}}{{champion:134}} (and more) end up in bad states because of poor reworks, but it takes an incredible amount of time before they get any follow up. Also, one of the biggest problems is that mains of these champs feel all but completely neglected since their feedback is lost in the sea of complaints about all the other champs. It seems as though once riot releases the "class update" they just stop trying because it's simply TOO MUCH to deal with.
It's because we can pair the kit changes with item and system changes as well. We can also give a whole class clearer strengths/weaknesses that make more sense in relation to each other when they are all updated at once. While we have definitely had some hit/misses on a per champion basis we feel the entire class is in a way better spot after the class update so they are very worth doing. Also even for the ones that miss they are usually in a healthier spot then before the rework (Kog being the exception)
Elphege (EUW)
: Can you spill who the designer was on Galio's rework? :D And do ChampUp teams 'exchange' members or are they set? What I mean is... you have Team A and Team B. Suppose Team A has Dev Chris. Could Dev Chris contribute to Team B's efforts, or is that impossible? If they're set, makes it easier to figure out who worked on Galioleo.
They change members a lot especially designers. But it's usually only a few people that move between projects. SolCrushed is the designer on Galio. He worked on Yorick and Poppy previously. He's going to be working on the next class update next though. RiotRepertior and Stashu are the designers that have been working in the ideation teams for the next VGUs
: Reav3 you haven't made any comments for owners of the Urf the Manatee skin about fixing the tail of the skin. Is it really just going to be the basic model or will there be changes to it to make it like the pre-rework (aka manatee costume over fluffly werewolf tail)? I understand riot puts more priority into the skins that are still available for purchase but please don't leave me and most likely other owners of the skin sitting in the mud with a neglected classic on the new WW. Note: The Chain gun (back tank) and spatula (right arm) are indeed 1000% loved and very appreciated.
We currently don't have plans to change the tail. We don't generally break silhouettes that much with a skin for gameplay clarity reasons. Previous WW had a small tail so it worked but new WW has a huge tail which is important to his overall silhouette.
: you cant fool me reav3! before the next champ? a blog post in a few weeks about who the galio team moves on to next?
Lol. I wouldn't get too excited. It's not coming THAT soon.
Nostormo (EUNE)
: Yeah I was talking about you saying: > I should have a blog out in a few weeks that goes over the next 2 VGUs Now reading it second time I got it that you will be probably iterating and explaining what you have so far with Galio and announce next one. For some reason it sounded to me that you would announce two new VGUs at that blog. my bad :x
I am going to announce the next 2 VGUs after Galio in the blog. At least which champions they are. You should look for my blog on the champion update process. We usually have 2 very small teams doing early exploration into our next projects 3-4 months before we go into full production and announce it. Basically as soon as Galio and WW went into production we began to explore a bunch of different ideas and designs for champions that could be next after Galio and WW. We have got to the point we're we feel confident in what the next 2 VGUs will be and are almost ready to talk about it. :)
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Reav3

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