The fact that you're ignoring massive outcry about how we hate the passive, simply because you think players don't know what they want, is ENORMOUSLY insulting. You haven't even given us an avenue to share our ideas about what a better passive could be, but you're convinced that the absolute last thing to be reworked should be the passive. We may not see eye to eye on Cass, but people are calling for your removal from the rework and I'm the only guy saying no that isn't being downvoted below the threshold. You're not a bad guy, Stashu, but if you want everyone to give you the benefit of the doubt, then you need to give it to us. Make a passive suggestions thread. Is that unreasonable to ask for, after how long this has gone on? If nothing comes of it then so be it, but at least you're showing that you give a damn what we think. Also I'm totally forum haunting you BooOOoOOOOooo...
Scampy
> Also I'm totally forum haunting you BooOOoOOOOooo... Lol I noticed-- but seriously, I do appreciate how much you care about Cassiopeia/telling me when it feels like your voice hasn't been heard. Anyway, yeah, I haven't made that sort of thread. That said, in [this thread](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1jXwf2BP-latest-on-cassiopeia) there was actually quite a lot of brainstorming on the passive, and I asked things like, "What would you want from the passive at that point in the game?" and generally just tried to keep the brainstorm going. I got a pretty good idea of what players wanted based on what was suggested, but also what was upvoted and what was downvoted haha. So, that's mostly why. I also want to see what people have to say about 4.21 before making any moves like that. Lastly, I know a suggestions thread seems harmless, but even if a suggestion there gets really highly upvoted, there's no guarentee that we could put it in the game, and that breeds a lot of disappointment and frustration that I'd like to avoid (I think I've had my fill of that for a bit). But yeah, that's a move I'd definitely make if we decide for sure that the cool parts of Aspect are really just unsalvageable, as everybody fears.
You are definitely right here. In-and-out seems to have become the very deifnition looking at many recent champion releases. I admit, it's really fun - even though it actually is kinda broken since many old champiosn lake the approprite tools to respond to it. Galio knows only one way: In. And even that doesn't work to well since he can't keep up with everybody dashing away. I know you're busy with reworking Cass: But do you have some thing in mind that might help him? I really think a slight CD on E would already be a great help to make him feel more impactful in siege-battles. Or the speedbuff on his E could possibly be doubled for himself. (Or the range increased when passing through an ally?)
Kowe The Ewok
Well, to truly make Galio interesting, I think we'd need to take a good long look at his whole kit, which would require a ton of support from other disciplines as well (art, animation, etc). That said, there might be some small things we can add to make him feel good about. Even adding something to his Q that says "marks target. Galio's basic attack deals bonus damage to target = x% of his ap or mr or w.e, consumes mark." This mechanic is pretty overused so I'd be hesitant to do that specifically, but anything that could give him an optimization case while improving the feel of his basic attack would likely go a long way. Anyway, I'm looking into a few champions at the moment, so no promises, but I'll keep him in mind and in discussions, maybe me or another designer could find some room for him some time.
This post, isn't at all about any of her moves, it's not a hate thread, it's not complaining about her rework. It's solely about the passive. Tell me your thoughts. Here's my questions. I like the idea, but it's not working whatsoever, wouldn't you say this would be better on a new champion? After you started working on a new rework(Which is now complete and being pushed to live) Why insist on keeping the passive? How does her new passive better fit in thematically vs her old passive? Why do you refuse to change it after so much dislike has been placed on the new passive not getting the job done? If you were to change it, what are you looking at as new possibilities for a passive? Would you consider bringing back Deadly Cadence and working with that? Thanks in advance for your time, I know that people are being.. hasty on the new rework without most of them actually knowing whether or not it works, but I would just like to know what your thoughts are.
shadowarcher6
Sure, I'll take some time to answer these. > I like the idea, but it's not working whatsoever, wouldn't you say this would be better on a new champion? Sometimes we put mechanics on a kit to achieve some sort of gameplay related goal, like fitting into a pattern, encouraging a playstyle, or solving some other problem, and sometime we do it because they're just super cool. The Aspect of the Serpent mechanic, a slow-build stacking passive which gives rewards at certain points, was thought to be pretty much all of these for Cassiopeia. It emphasized the identity we were going for, encouraged interaction in lane, and had a promise of being really exciting. It's accomplished a lot of the things it was meant to, but it fell miserably flat on the cool aspect and ended up feeling more like shackles than anything else. The idea of dramatically growing in power over game time through play is a cool one, but our execution was underwhelming. I want to get her into a more balanced state to truly eliminate any power variables before conclusively stating anything concrete about how the passive in its current state could feel (god that was wordy, sorry about that), but yeah it seems like it could use some work. That said, in a fully realized version of the passive, yeah I think it fits on Cassiopeia. If it never gets there, then no, certainly not. > After you started working on a new rework(Which is now complete and being pushed to live) Why insist on keeping the passive? Some of the above, but, basically, me and many of the other designers saw the promise in the passive but felt that a number of surrounding variables (power levels, weak poisons, clunky stacking mechanisms) were keeping it from actually feeling cool. We hoped to fix these surrounding problems to let the cool parts express themselves. We'll see how that goes. I suspect it's not quite enough yet and that the mechanics could still use some work, but our changes for 4.21 will definitely do some good for Cassiopeia and Cassiopeia players. > How does her new passive better fit in thematically vs her old passive? I'm not really sure where Deadly Cadence fit in at all thematically :<. Mechanically it made a lot of sense to me (Cassiopeia should be empowered to cast a lot of spells), though there were some realllly weird incentives there (like casting at the ground to keep it up, even while no enemies were around). But Snake Mage has little to do with rhythm (cadence) or reduced mana costs. Ultimately, for a fun play experience, gameplay comes before thematics, but when the two tie-in some real magic happens, and that should always be the goal. To me, Aspect of the Serpent has a few more thematic hooks than Deadly Cadence. Through poisoning her foes, Cassiopeia becomes more and more adept at wielding the curse that befell her once normal body. She's driven to poison enemies, and as she does, she unlocks the potential of her new powers. This may not be the perfect marriage of thematics and gameplay, but I think it stands up pretty well. > Why do you refuse to change it after so much dislike has been placed on the new passive not getting the job done? I feel like I've answered this above :p > If you were to change it, what are you looking at as new possibilities for a passive? Cassiopeia has a few really cool patterns. * Her fishing with Q's pattern, to get that MS boost for E follow-ups * Her on-the-fly kiting pattern of Q/E/E/Q/E/E, using W and R as necessary * Her turn-and-burn pattern, where she hits an E or two than lands a fat Q and walks away So, likely something to encourage one or all of these. > Would you consider bringing back Deadly Cadence and working with that? Ehhhh maybe. I had some gameplay issues with that one but there was *some* cool stuff there. So maybe if Aspect truly doesn't work out, and some form of Deadly Cadence*realllly* accomplished what I described in the above section, then maybe, though I find it unlikely. > Thanks in advance for your time, I know that people are being.. hasty on the new rework without most of them actually knowing whether or not it works, but I would just like to know what your thoughts are. No problem! I'm definitely not going to be able to answer all of these types of posts, but I'll take time to explain my thinking here and there. Hope this helps!
Why is it that you have to be level 6 or higher to make comments on some topics? I wanted to report an issue with the 4.20 patch, but can't make a comment or post because I'm not level 6. Is there any easier way to drive people away from the game by not allowing them to make comments, new or not? Especially when it's on the relevant forum topic.
Deraj01
Sorry about that! Unfortunately it's because there are many low level accounts that were previously being used to spam the Boards, and old Forums. We instituted a minimum level requirement here to prevent a lot of that. It had a huge impact. :/
by all means this isnt an xpeke, but still pretty entertaining
LITTLETROLLBUTT
I've done that same thing but without actually finishing the game more times than I'm proud of.
I came to notice that he's one of the 3 least popular champions (the other two being Urgot and Cassiopeia). Personally - I like his utility and his poke is also nice, not to mention that he performs really well against popular picks like Fizz. He has great poke and waveclear which both have become even more important with the pre-season tower changes. (Also Abyssal got buffed) So, why do so few people play him?
Kowe The Ewok
While his abilities are all strong individually, they don't really have a flow that feels particularly rewarding. What I mean is, you can W yourself for AP before casting your abilities, and that feels kind of clever, but it doesn't feel particularly good because it's not very exciting. Likewise, you can slow a target with Q so that you're more likely to hit E, or use E to approach a target to hit your ulti, and all of this is smart play, but doesn't feel quite like the combos that other champions have access to. Renekton E'ing through a minion to W/Q enemy champion, then E'ing back to safety is both smart play and feels super rewarding, like you've done it right. Ulting on Vayne and then using a stealthed tumble to get in position to condemn someone into a wall is clever and feels amazing. Galio can cast W to get that slight AP boost from his passive, Q to slow the enemy so as to get a guaranteed E, which will allow him to run up and R, but this will never feel as good as that Vayne play or even the simple Renekton trading pattern. That's my theory anyway. Oh, also Galio's basic attacks are super lame, which is actually a pretty big deal for a melee champion.
It's simply a 35 minute compensation for having her old ratios scrapped and her earlygame weakened. Even the CDR is just a poor apology by increasing the cooldown on her Q by 33%. The lifesteal gained is the only real feature gained and to be honest - it doesn't even make sense! Is she a vampire now? --------------------------------------------- I appreciate Stashu's effort to fix this broken rework. But I can't see it working out if her passive is solely based on compensating what was taken away from her and a single added bonus which doesn't even make sense lore or gameply wise. ------------------------------------- It could be fun if her stacking passive was about adding utility to her poison, like adding Magic Resist Shred, Slows or lowering the enemies attack damage. Currently however it's just dull and unrewarding. I dare say that old Cassio players will never accept it as logn as it's sole purpose consists in manipulating her powercurve to have a wose earlygame.
Kowe The Ewok
Hey! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The sole purpose of the passive is not to compensate what was taken away, but I can definitely see how it appears to be that way. A big part of it *was* to curb the oppressive lane bully pattern, but the other parts were to offer her a unique way of growing in power that was meant to be exciting and rewarding. As you say, however, it's landed in a place that's a bit dull. Were working on making sure we've get some poison feel back and get her into a balanced state, largely by flattening out her ridiculously steep power curve a bit. This'll likely hit in 4.21, and it's likely that the passive will still feel a bit flat even on a balanced champion, so we'll be evaluating that as we go and be ready to make changes to make feel less like a shackle and more like a cool way of growing power.
Professor Eyebeam skin please.
Imperial Red
His passive was called "Research and Destroy"
He's not op, at best he gets fed in lane and attempts to end the game fast but can't do that well anymore(ult nerf). Every time I say he needs a buff or a change to his kit to be more healthy for both sides I get told he's fine or he doesn't deserve a buff because he's broken when fed. Who isn't broken when fed? Why has Riot given Darius nothing yet? Why do people of boards hate Darius with an absolute burning passion?
Varin Omega
I think the main reason is that there is nothing on Darius's kit that is dodgeable or meaningfully outplayed. When Darius is strong, you can't get near him without dying. Likewise, there's very little Darius can do to outplay hit opponents. When he is weak, he can't get near his opponents. I'm overstating both of these a bit, but that's more or less what's going on there I think. There's a lot of cool stuff about Darius, like his steeply ramping in-combat threat and a repeatable true-damage execution ultimate. But the way everything is currently set, he leads to a bit of a binary experience of "he just killed me over and over again and there was nothing I could do :(," or "Wait... there was a Darius in that game?"
i mean really don't need to say much hes really strong right now... i mean REALLY STRONG. and now ppl are taking {{item:3718}} item into the lane which holy shit makes him broken. RIOT plz.....
The Abyss Lord
Yeah he's a littttttle crazy.
Hi i have been wondering if you as a proffesional game designer could take up some passive ideas and explain why you would think they are bad/don't fit. Personally i would love for all of her power (that is extra ap, cdr, and other stats) to be available from the start and then have her passive give her a lot of utility such as move speed, slows, poison spreadening or other things like that. I know there are some pitfalls in a lot of things we as players suggest but some feedback on it would be valuable to better be able suggest new ideas.
LongFur Fox
Yeah definitely. I've experimented with a number of more 'interesting' mechanics as rewards for the breakpoints. Ultimately, they all, much like the current stat-y one, created a feeling in the player of "but why do I have to wait?" Basically, when you get a tool that alters the way you approach your core combat pattern, the kit feels incomplete without it. The healing on E is kind of cool and adds some decisions, but none that really change the way you approach combat, except that now you are kind of just stronger. As a comparison point, consider Syndra. Her ability augments don't *really* change the way the abilities function. They just sort of add some power (increased damage, increased slow duration, etc.). The one that really stands out to me is the increased cast range on the ultimate. Cast ranges are pretty sacred as far as I've learned. Opponents learn approximately what your threat range is and then play around it, so when that changes things get really whacky. I think it's okay for Syndra since nobody really learns to play around the range of the ultimate, as it only happens once per fight and often within the range of her other abiltites. But when you do this for Noxious Blast or Twin Fang or other abilities that are nearly always up and core parts of a Champion's threat, things start to break down. There are champions who are all-about increasing threat range, like Kog'Maw and Tristana, but that aspect is core to the champion identity, so players learn to play around it. As a point of contrast, consider Kha'Zix. His W, E, and R change pretty dramatically when they're evolved. It's pretty important here to nail down the differences between Kha'Zix and Cassiopeia. What is it about Kha'Zix's abilities, which dramatically change his threat ranges and counterplay, that doesn't leave the Kha'Zix player feeling like she's missing something when she doesn't have them? Is it something about the evolution system, or the individual abilities themselves? I think it's pretty clear that it's the evolution system, but what about it? I think a lot of it has to do with it being a core part of the champion's identity, that both kha'zix players and opponents know going into a game that that's his thing. But it doesn't end there. I think the choice there and the reliability is really important. Kha'Zix (and Victor also) can choose to get their preferred upgrade about as early as they can want it. The augmentation of abilities is much more in the hand of the players in these cases (and even to Syndra) and so it doesn't feel like the game is witholding a core ability for them, but rather they get to upgrade their champion *how/when they want to.* That's the prevailing theory anyway. So, the question is, what sorts of things make sense to come over game time in ways which you can't control super well? One answer is 'just make it an evolution system like Kha'Zix/Victor,' but I think that design space is starting to get a bit crowded and it's really important that we preserve what makes those champions feel unique. Stats sort of work, but they create a similar feeling of the game playing keep-away with your power. Somehow the Twin Fang augment works, as it's power in a way which adds some softer decisions and doen't really change Cassiopeia's combat pattern. So, if we're going to swap out the stats for more interesting things that feel exciting to get rather than necessary, it would have to fit along these lines. Sorry for the rant, hope that helps!
> Yea, it may be the case that wave clear is still something that we need to look into after the next patch. There's no question in my mind that these upcoming changes will be buffs, so let's see how it turns out and Stashu will make more adjustments if they are needed. > > Thanks for giving us reasonable and productive feedback that we can use. I'll forward the mana itemization ideas along to the Systems designers that work on that stuff. Oh thank you very much. :)
Khristophoros
Here are my thought's on Cassiopeia's waveclear: There's a certain baseline of minion wave control that is necessary for a champion to function in League of Legends, especially if they fall behind a little. The original Cassiopeia changes really hurt her waveclear, particularly for her W, but also in her Q ratio for early game. However, they were supposed to enable a different farming pattern, which involved poisoning the minions and last hitting them all with E for the mana return. This is not as effective as Q/Wing the wave as Zerath, Ziggs, or old Cassiopeia, but it was intended as a viable means of controlling the minion wave nonetheless. Of course, it's possible that it simply wasn't functional enough, or maybe it was minimally functional but her other strengths weren't expressing themselves sufficiently to account for her weaker waveclear. So, with the upcoming changes, maxing Q first should be much more viable than previously (and thus should be a more accessible waveclear tool), and E will have 0.55 ap ratio at rank 1, so even that should be a better last hitting tool at early ranks. Further, she'll have a flatly more powerful lane presence with the other surrounding changes, which should leave her weaker wave clear as less of a crippling weakness.
> I'm kind of jealous of Canada's thanksgiving! Feel like US thanksgiving is cut short by its proximity to Christmas. > > Also, lemme get some of that brisket pls :O hehe ya I can see that. But it also means you guys can have this whole black friday thing which is great for Christmas shopping! ;) Sure, just come up to Canada before we eat it all and you can have some. It's not going to last long though lol
Eleshakai
I need a smart ping option for "hey save some of that for me".
"Blah blah blah we want to make champs have different power curves and here's a wall of text on the game design philosophy behind it blah blah blah" But it's irrelevant because we understand the concept and the actual issue is that a 90 minute power curve makes a champion worthless. Either change the meta into a defensive grindfest or don't make power curves like this.
Khristophoros
Quite simply, you're right. I've spoke quite a bit to this, bottom line being her curve is wayyyy too steep. 4.21 changes do a number of things to address this. * Her passive stacks more quickly and reliably * Her Q ms and E ap start higher than before and no longer scale with rank * The Twin Fang debuff straight up adds a lot of power to her at all stages of the game This should go a long ways towards solving the problem you're addressing here. I also think it should ease a lot of the other concerns surrounding the changes, but we'll definitely see. So please give them a chance and let me know what you think!
I'm thankful that thanksgiving was over a month ago! I'm also thankful for that awesome Brisket I made last night. Brisket sandwiches are heaven on a bun. It does not get better than that, it really doesn't.
Eleshakai
I'm kind of jealous of Canada's thanksgiving! Feel like US thanksgiving is cut short by its proximity to Christmas. Also, lemme get some of that brisket pls :O
Lyte, Your Speech was very interesting, it actually makes me rethink my experiences on League.. I found it very interesting how by changing font colours the effects changed completely ! http://gdcvault.com/play/1017940/The-Science-Behind-Shaping-Player
Ryval Envy
Thanks! Hopefully you keep your eyes peeled as we're doing another talk about player behavior at GDC 2015. We're going to go over 3 years of lessons we've learned, mistakes we've overcome, and a look at the future of League.
Yay! Jungler appreciation! xD I'm thankful for the chance to hunt down farming junglers with Rek'Sai sometime in the near future!!
Arveanor
I can't wait for someone to win a base race with a back door tunnel.
HMMM. "Ao Shin someday, won't be soon." Does this mean... that someday he won't be "soon" anymore? Such as he's released at the start of 2015, therefore it's someday and is no longer soon!?
Jixx
For purposes of these sort of timelines the start of 2015 counts as 'soon', or even 'very soon'. Ao Shin's genuinely a long way off sorry.
I'm thankful for the new Sion, and his infinitely stacking health. If he were me on thanksgiving he'd probably break 9K.
Arcaneswrath
And when his stomach runs out of HP, he lies down for a bit, wakes up, and keeps eating. Sounds like thanksgiving all right.
So tell me, was Priscilla, Queen of the Shadow Isles originally slated to be voiced by Hugo Weaving? :P
ClocksAkimbo
I doubt it alas, but man, that would have been amazing.
You're clearly taking something away from her if you nerf her E-ratio along with its flat damage and the one on her Q. Especially Twin Fang will already require MORE than the 700 AP it previously needed just to get even with her pre-rework self. She's worse in every aspect, in the end you'll be spending EVEN more mana than before just to get off the poison-enhancer from her E. She'll be already oom from 2-3 rotations of this, hardly leaving her any mana to even use her E on minions. Too bad that Twin Fang requires her to get very close to her target thus leaving her incredibly vulnerable which is unacceptable in scenarios where she's behind thus turning her disadvantage bigger and bigger. Since she has no other way of dealing damage, she'll be pretty much irrelevant for the rest of the game. This kit will never function as long as the focus on her Twin Fang remains. And for this to change, you need to alter her passive into something greater than mere ap-enhancers which only show results if you're actually snowballing since the effect heavily relies on your ap-build. Just by purchasing defensive items, you're gimping yourself. You're forcing her to pursue a glass-cannon build which is almost impossible if you start losing your lane. You'll be stuck with pitiful bonuses until you reach a full itemset which will be far too late then to make a difference anymore. Her passive alone is entirely insufficient at turning her into a hypercarry, so it feels like a waste of time and effort to even gather stacks.
Canastus
The multiple ranges of power that Q -> E give to her kit give her in my opinion a good risk/reward curve. This same principle applies to a ton of champions (ziggs, Ahri, Velkoz, Jinx, varus, thresh, morgana, etc) -Long range Q gives her poke, wave clear, and a safe fallback option when she doesn't want to fully commit to a dangerous range. -High payoff but shorter range E gives her increased power when she wants to all in I think that a lot of her success really does come down to numbers. Theoretically she could be tuned up to near unstoppable levels of power with a variety of changes (movespeed on Q, Damage on any spell, etc). Give the upcoming patch changes a try and see if they help her as much as we think they will.
> The passive encourages her to trade and interact with her opponent in lane, this doesn't necessarily make her a lane bully. From the work that Stashu is doing for her in the upcoming patch, we hope to make her power curve less steep than it currently is. The changes he is working on felt really good to play as a Cass player for multiple reasons: > > -Buffs, because honestly she is weak on live currently > > -Poison focus, the payoff for a successful trade or all in pushes the power back into her poison damage, matching and enhancing the thematic feel of the kit > > -More elegant passive play - by simplifying the way she stacks her passive it actually makes the choices more interesting and clear with less complexity. Do I try for Q poke on my enemy laner, do I use Q for waveclear and farm, do I E enemy for good trade damage, do I E to last hit for my mana restore, etc. The decision making felt really rich to me when I playtested it. > > The current plan is to get these changes to live next patch, but it's never a finished product. If more work is to be done after that, so be it. We're in it for the long haul. Thanks for the reply. Could I interest you in my other thread? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/374T4OEH-hey-riot-mana-itemization-could-be-more-interesting It's interesting I promise you. Also btw, I think what really hurts Cass is the fact that she can't waveclear very well anymore. And IIRC the upcoming changes only buff her single target damage, which isn't going to fix that. Gutting the base damages on her poison AoEs really ruined her waveclear and that's kind of essential for her to compete in mid.
Khristophoros
Yea, it may be the case that wave clear is still something that we need to look into after the next patch. There's no question in my mind that these upcoming changes will be buffs, so let's see how it turns out and Stashu will make more adjustments if they are needed. Thanks for giving us reasonable and productive feedback that we can use. I'll forward the mana itemization ideas along to the Systems designers that work on that stuff.
They don't want her to be a lane bully. But... the new passive encourages her to be a lane bully or else she wont get her stacks quite as fast. Her passive is contradicting what riot wants to do with her general playstyle; They'll be better off if they throw it in the trash. Most of us hate it anyhow.
BrickRocket
The passive encourages her to trade and interact with her opponent in lane, this doesn't necessarily make her a lane bully. From the work that Stashu is doing for her in the upcoming patch, we hope to make her power curve less steep than it currently is. The changes he is working on felt really good to play as a Cass player for multiple reasons: -Buffs, because honestly she is weak on live currently -Poison focus, the payoff for a successful trade or all in pushes the power back into her poison damage, matching and enhancing the thematic feel of the kit -More elegant passive play - by simplifying the way she stacks her passive it actually makes the choices more interesting and clear with less complexity. Do I try for Q poke on my enemy laner, do I use Q for waveclear and farm, do I E enemy for good trade damage, do I E to last hit for my mana restore, etc. The decision making felt really rich to me when I playtested it. The current plan is to get these changes to live next patch, but it's never a finished product. If more work is to be done after that, so be it. We're in it for the long haul.
Internal names can be pretty placeholder ish at times and many champs spend a while being referred to as something else before we figure out a final name for them. Sometimes that's a moderately serious name like Seth, sometimes it's something jokey (Vel'koz was 'Professor Eyebeam' for a few months for example).
Meddler
The internal splash for Sion rework had him stepping on a teemo. Shame that didn't make it into the final....
Can we hear some other placeholder names?
Kobila2000
At one point in development, Rek'Sai was referred to as "Joan T. Burrow-woman." Believe me, no one was more shocked than me when the reveal came out and she wasn't still called that! Up until a very late point, Jinx was called "Seven." (Before Vi fans jump in here, let me state for the record that this name had nothing to do with Vi. ) And as is already known, Jayce was named "Apollo".
In the spirit of Thanksgiving, I'd like to give props to all the junglers out there. I know that it's a high-pressure job and people yell at you a lot if you don't make the entire team happy, but I just want you to know that I'm super grateful every time you come through bot lane to serve us up a piping hot plate of the enemy ADC with a side of support (and if we're lucky, a dragon for dessert!). When I first started playing League of Legends, I learned how to play from a friend of mine who would pick jungle just to cover for my newbie mishaps in lane. It wasn't until I started playing frequently without him that I realized how much I had depended on my jungle to keep me in the game and let me focus on trying to win lane. Thanks, Louie! Also, as a Thresh main, I'm extra-thankful for the junglers out there who blindly trust my ridiculous lantern dive gank attempts and are forgiving when they (inevitably) fail. Trust me, the five times I accidentally lead you to die under the enemy tower are worth it for the one time we pull off something out of a KR solo queue highlight video. So here's to you, junglers! May your ganks be praised, your mistakes forgiven, and your Baron smites true. Everyone else, hug your jungler and tell them you're grateful for them (so that you don't have to do their dirty work :P ). Happy Ganksgiving! What are you thankful for this year? I'd love to hear some of your stories (League-related or otherwise)!
Bug in your system. Lets leave it up. You know their is a bug. And you are going to force people to use your terrible ticket system to get out of punishment when they have served..... You got to be kidding. Tickets can take over a week to get a response!!!!!! Plus they refuse to actually look at any info you provide they use templates that say provide x, when you already have done that. I am not even being punished and i find this extreme.
Kchaosrei
We're not leaving the bug up, we're working on the fix and getting it into the game ASAP.
I have reached my 1000th win recently and was wondering if i could get a two letter msg from the BaconHawk Overlord herself saying Hi
TheKittenofDeath
Yo
so idk if anyone else is having this problem with the new leaver buster but first of all i got low priority queue after leaving 1 game which is kinda silly secondly the low priority queue is bugged i think. you wait out the duration and then it just restarts and you never get to join the game this happened to me twice and im on my 3rd round atm
repslice
In rare cases, some types of older hardware are seeing a bug where they get repeated timers instead of going through to matchmaking. A fix is already in for patch 4.21. For the time being, a few things that might help are to close other programs when you are playing League (so that only League is running). If you write a Player Support ticket someone can help run through tech support options with you.
If they can be answered before an official Q and A, then that would be great, but if not, I'm just sort of posting them so I remember. Basically, it comes down to her name. There are a few things we know about her: 1. She's from the void 2. Her Runeterra home is the Shurima Desert. 3. Non-Verbal monster. Communicates with clicks, calls, and various other monster sounds. Possibly non-sentient, instinct based creature. The first of the void champions 4. Feared by Shurima denizens for generations. How did she get her name? All other void creatures can communicate, and are self aware. They know their names. Is she part of a larger pack of creatures? Would they be Rek'Sai as well? Did the people of Shurima name her? She's been around long enough that she's pretty much a legend. Honestly, I doubt it. They would have to be pretty lucky to get her name with the apostrophe in her name. Maybe they literally just refer to her as "The Terror of the Deep". Cool, that's fine. I'm sure her crossing over will be explained. But basically, how does an apparently non sentient creature get a proper name. It would be like the Lock Ness Monster showing up one day and saying "Hey, guys. It's Frank. My name is Frank. Jesus", before going back under water. It may seem like a small thing, but I think names are important as they confer identity and direction. Hoping a red chimes in, or someone with some semblance of an answer. Thanks guys, Songslinger
Songslinger
Not my area of expertise, so do recommend asking these questions in the Q&A about her (which is likely to be either next week or the week after at a guess). Couple of things I can help with though: * Rek'sai is her specific name, her species are called the Xer'Sai * Rek'sai's the largest, most distinctive, most dangerous of the Xer'Sai - there are other creatures out there like her, but they're not in her league
Really good similar example: Pink ward placement. The ways people use pink wards has gotten a LOT smarter as time goes on, which was very clearly notable when following the S4 LCS.
Cuix
Great example, and yeah, we'd be very happy to see tunnel placement follow the same sort of trajectory pink ward placement has.
Additionally, we said we'd never do a healer. Instead, "what will it take to do a healer" was the better question. I'll say it straight. You guys were right on some of this stuff and helped us understand our limitations we'd created. It's a hard ship to turn, but I'm glad we are doing it.
Morello
> I'll say it straight. You guys were right on some of this stuff and helped us understand our limitations we'd created. It's a hard ship to turn, but I'm glad we are doing it. A big +1 to this from me. We've been pushing on some particular things for new champions as you've mentioned and player feedback calling out where we should improve/where our past releases have sometimes fallen short of the mark's been enormously valuable. Also wanted to say thanks for the thread. Discussion can get pretty focused on what's problematic at times, and while that's really useful to hear it's also very helpful to cover the what's going well side of things sometimes too.
> TLDR: Ao Shin someday, won't be soon. > > Slightly longer version: We spent a bunch of time working on Ao Shin but ultimately concluded he wasn't hitting the mark so put him on hold for a while in order to figure some things out. We still think his concept's really cool, as is some of the stuff we were trying with him, so do intend to make him someday. Don't expect to see him anytime soon though, we'd rather be slow, but do a better job of delivering on his potential, than quick. That's a process some other champs have also gone through (Lee Sin, Elise and Azir for example), where it took a few different takes to hit on what we felt was the right one (Lee Sin originally as Blind Monk way back pre launch, Elise originally as Priscilla the Spider Queen, Azir originally as Seth the sand mage), ultimately yielding better champs in the long run we feel. I was wondering, as you did with the champs you mentioned, is it likely that his name won't be Ao Shin with his release?
DwarvenGiant
His name's certainly something we'd want to talk about, assess whether 'Ao Shin' is still a good fit for the final version of him we get to. Can't offer you any thoughts on likelihood of that though at the moment, it's not something we've looked at yet.
Am so glad you didn't end up calling him Seth the Sand mage. =b
Yasu Yoru
Internal names can be pretty placeholder ish at times and many champs spend a while being referred to as something else before we figure out a final name for them. Sometimes that's a moderately serious name like Seth, sometimes it's something jokey (Vel'koz was 'Professor Eyebeam' for a few months for example).
What's the reasoning for keeping it a DoT now, given the current strength of AS-centric items? I don't think a change to burst would actually lead to a big change in his satisfaction, playstyle, or build paths.
Cuix
That'd be an option if looking to buff Nautilus certainly. He's one of the junglers the live balance team are currently tracking to see if they're too weak given the jungle changes. Main question to ask would be whether there are better places to put power on him instead if he needs it - which buffs address where he needs power, when, leave build options open where possible, give him a distinct niche as a tank etc
Some designs for Ao Shin were released several months ago but nothing else has come and several others champions have been released prior to him. Was he tossed into the garbage?
Leviathan000
TLDR: Ao Shin someday, won't be soon. Slightly longer version: We spent a bunch of time working on Ao Shin but ultimately concluded he wasn't hitting the mark so put him on hold for a while in order to figure some things out. We still think his concept's really cool, as is some of the stuff we were trying with him, so do intend to make him someday. Don't expect to see him anytime soon though, we'd rather be slow, but do a better job of delivering on his potential, than quick. That's a process some other champs have also gone through (Lee Sin, Elise and Azir for example), where it took a few different takes to hit on what we felt was the right one (Lee Sin originally as Blind Monk way back pre launch, Elise originally as Priscilla the Spider Queen, Azir originally as Seth the sand mage), ultimately yielding better champs in the long run we feel.
I'll just leave this here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/qxiX85Qj-the-real-reason-people-are-getting-twitchy-about-blood-moon-elise
Dies to Wolves
> I'll just leave this here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/qxiX85Qj-the-real-reason-people-are-getting-twitchy-about-blood-moon-elise This is actually one of the threads I've been monitoring for feedback. :3
Contemporay would be good. I think his overly volumized hair had more to do with the reality of blocky models and less with a conscious effort to make him look like Fabio styled with a vaccum cleaner. Bloodstone Taric has a nice style, for example, but it's unique to that skin's feel. But achieing that level of natural with another, elegant style is probably the way to go.
Hadriel
Agreed, I wasn't there at the time, but I'd agree. Regardless it's given us a persistent mental image. One which I'm trying to figure out is based on valid affinity or just comic familiarity.
Personally, I think Taric should have this kinda swarthy charm that makes him sorta mordern. Fandral from the thor movies is a good example IMO [](http://static.tumblr.com/uowc4nu/PSQmaqyva/fandral.jpg)
Obokuri
Ok, so there's something here.. A LOT of costume design of today's movies dealing with comic book heroes does this REALLY well. In fact, Thor is probably one of the best executed fashion+fantasy designs I've seen in forever. The designers manage to make classical fantasy feel with more modern materials, motifs and style. I'm interested in going down this rabbit hole, maybe not so much of THIS particular character, but in this vein of costume exploration in particular.
I don't envy your job, honestly. First people complain that its pink, now OTHER people complain that they want it pink. Both sides immediately assume their view is correct. No matter what you do, you'll get an indignant group of children clamoring and complaining.
OMG halp meh plz
> I don't envy your job, honestly. > > First people complain that its pink, now OTHER people complain that they want it pink. Both sides immediately assume their view is correct. > > No matter what you do, you'll get an indignant group of children clamoring and complaining. Eh, it's not the worst thing in the world. It's actually really interesting to see why some people like something, and why others don't!
You guys are looking at the Pro-Red side of things too, right...? I hope so - my initial thoughts when I saw the pink version of the skin amounted to "Wow, that's... kind of dull. Washed-out. It isn't nearly as striking as the other Blood Moon skins." Then the red-update hit PBE and everything was awesome. I'm glad everyone has a voice, and I'm glad everyone's voices are getting heard, but... That red just *pops.* It looks fantastic, vivid. The contrast gives it some serious visual power. If you guys do try to compromise between the two sides, I hope that the heavy contrast at least is preserved.
EnvyDragon
> You guys are looking at the Pro-Red side of things too, right...? I hope so - my initial thoughts when I saw the pink version of the skin amounted to "Wow, that's... kind of dull. Washed-out. It isn't nearly as striking as the other Blood Moon skins." Then the red-update hit PBE and everything was awesome. > > I'm glad everyone has a voice, and I'm glad everyone's voices are getting heard, but... That red just *pops.* It looks fantastic, vivid. The contrast gives it some serious visual power. If you guys do try to compromise between the two sides, I hope that the heavy contrast at least is preserved. Yup! Both sides of the argument are being taken into consideration. I've been collecting feedback from both sides and presenting it to the team. Like I've said around this thread, it's been pretty evenly split!
An idea could be send private messages, from Riot itself, to a random sportsmanlike and/or behaved players. Such as, but are not limited to, "Good job Summoner! You've been really positive on the Rift and would like to congratulate you! Remember stay positive and refrain from toxicity" if only rito. if only.
KrazyKoolKev
I wonder how many players will notice this response: In the new Tribunal, players can review and vote on positive chat logs. If the players agree that someone was positive in their League matches, something neat happens in the client for the player.
Hello again (again). So something interesting came up in this thread: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/HALQfHsu-marvelous-portrait-of-taric-on-surfer-singeds-updated-textures Namely, a discussion around hair. Yes. Hair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_zaSKZks1A Bur seriously, there's a thought swimming in my head about slanting Taric a little more "modern". Even the term "metrosexual" came up, mainly referring to a well-kempt, good looking gentleman that's fashionable and, for lack of a better term, "modern". Some of my explorations lean this way. I'll emphasize **explorations** as this is super early concept stuff. In part II of this discussion.. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/a7ulBkBM-so-what-do-you-guys-wanna-do-with-taric-part-ii-pics-or-it-didnt-happen ..we talked about visual reference, asking what people were looking for in our favorite gem knight. A lot of fancy paladin art came up, sort of standard fantasy fair. The traditional suit of armor that's nicely ornamented and beautiful. But, it begs a question. What can separate Taric out from a standard paladin? One idea that's been floated in giving him that "modern" twist I mentioned. What does this mean? Well, it can mean a lot of things. One thing is his hair. Hair often can define modernity and current fashion trends. The way I perceive it is that the poof that Taric sorta has now dates him quite a bit. The suggestion was made to give him more of a modern cut, and therefore, give him more relatable, and current, style. I'm wondering that maybe we don't stop there. Maybe we push him to feel "modern" and fashionable all over. I'm not talking about futuristic, or runway high-fashion, but I'm wondering if it'd be a valuable exercise to ask for ideas about what people think a "Modern Paladin" could look like. Maybe supply some images that stress Taric's beauty and charm, but also set him apart from sword-and-sorcery fantasy. Not that that sort of fantasy is bad, but I'm looking to see what sort of spin we might be able to put on Taric that isn't just an armor set. I think exploring fashion, modern trends, and more contemporary looks might yield some results. What do you think?
Thanks for letting us know the behind the scenes happenings! Since it's still up for debate I'd figure I'd toss my hat in the ring here and make my opinion known. For me, when I first saw the original Blood Moon Elise skin it was an INSTABUY! The colors on the human for complemented each other so well, especially the pink and blue, and the particles were to die for. Along with the face and hair, and even the skin tone and clothes, I just had to have it! Plus, even though it wasn't red, I still appreciated it's value as a slight variation on a popular skin line and thought it complemented the line overall. The red just doesn't jive with the overall tone of the skin, and it's obvious that it wasn't the original intention. I'm surprised that a minor color tweak could change my opinion of a skin so drastically, but there it is. I'm not going to be getting this one if the red stays, and I'm sad that's the way it is cuz I really loved it :/ Please don't listen to the naysayers on this one, change it back *pleeease*.....? {{champion:60}}
DynamiteGazelle
> Thanks for letting us know the behind the scenes happenings! Since it's still up for debate I'd figure I'd toss my hat in the ring here and make my opinion known. > > For me, when I first saw the original Blood Moon Elise skin it was an INSTABUY! > The colors on the human for complemented each other so well, especially the pink and blue, and the particles were to die for. Along with the face and hair, and even the skin tone and clothes, I just had to have it! Plus, even though it wasn't red, I still appreciated it's value as a slight variation on a popular skin line and thought it complemented the line overall. > > The red just doesn't jive with the overall tone of the skin, and it's obvious that it wasn't the original intention. I'm surprised that a minor color tweak could change my opinion of a skin so drastically, but there it is. I'm not going to be getting this one if the red stays, and I'm sad that's the way it is cuz I really loved it :/ > > Please don't listen to the naysayers on this one, change it back *pleeease*.....? > > {{champion:60}} Thanks for giving solid feedback, I'll pass it on to the team! It's seriously appreciated, 'cause a people can say they don't like something, but it's a lot more difficult to sometimes explain why, and the reasoning is way more helpful than just an "I like this" or "I don't like this."
To me I see a whole a lot more people wanting and pushing for the old pink color (Me Included) than when people wanted it red. I really hope you guys revert it cause it was really beautiful and unique, and to me it did fit the blood moon line. The pinkish red made her look beautiful and seductive to lure in her prey but still fierce at the same time, AND her spider legs OMG those were beautiful and the best part, the touches of purple and blue on her legs were just mmm drooling right now and it had a touch of gold. Now she has the gold and blue legs which are just hideous. Even if they are part of a specific skin line they don't have to look exactly the same. In all honesty Akali and Shen don't fit Thresh and Kalista's. Please change it back i loved the pink Elise skin so much and now its just ugh.
SailorPikaMars
> To me I see a whole a lot more people wanting and pushing for the old pink color (Me Included) than when people wanted it red. > > I really hope you guys revert it cause it was really beautiful and unique, and to me it did fit the blood moon line. > The pinkish red made her look beautiful and seductive to lure in her prey but still fierce at the same time, AND her spider legs OMG those were beautiful and the best part, the touches of purple and blue on her legs were just mmm drooling right now and it had a touch of gold. Now she has the gold and blue legs which are just hideous. > > Even if they are part of a specific skin line they don't have to look exactly the same. In all honesty Akali and Shen don't fit Thresh and Kalista's. > > Please change it back i loved the pink Elise skin so much and now its just ugh. I can see arguments for both sides, honestly. Both color versions have their strengths and weaknesses. You're right, they don't have to look exactly the same, but they should still be fairly cohesive in the sense of the thematic.
Have you ever considered renaming the skin, and picking a different jungler for the Blood Moon line at a later time? From what I have noticed the people who don't like the pink are concerned with the quality of the blood moon skin line, and the people who don't like the red are concerned with the quality of elise's skin line. By doing a rename, everybody wins. What about pink Masquerade Elise?
Takran
> Have you ever considered renaming the skin, and picking a different jungler for the Blood Moon line at a later time? > > From what I have noticed the people who don't like the pink are concerned with the quality of the blood moon skin line, and the people who don't like the red are concerned with the quality of elise's skin line. By doing a rename, everybody wins. What about pink Masquerade Elise? Since her spider form is a Blood Moon mask, changing the name is not something we're considering. She'll still be Blood Moon, we're just discussing the color choices at this point.
Because if not I think I've got something for you guys that would be more or less perfect. In Scottish folklore there's a faerie/undead/vampire thing called a baobhan sith, a seductive, enticing, *razor clawed* monster that leads unwary travelers away to secluded places before devouring them. I've seen Rioters say before that the 'succubus/vampire' look is hard to nail down, but mythology has been kind enough to supply us with a creature that basically fits Eve perfectly. So, what does such a creature look like? Well, tales differ, but generally a baobhan sith was typically imagined as a radiantly beautiful woman in a diaphanous green or white gown with razor-sharp claws that were typically kept out of sight until they were ready to use. In some versions of the story she has cloven hooves that she tries to hide with the dress. Such a creature, if you wanted to boil down its appearance to a few key features, graceful, elegant, and predatory. I know that would be a pretty major departure from Eve's present BDSM look, but that's what 'classic' skins are for, right?
Rebonack
My hunch is to go more into the.. um.. well.. sorta hybrid succubus, seductive vampire-like sorta thing. I would make her a literal vampire, but I feel she needs that shadowy, creature of the night feel. I'll say right up front that I'm not a fan of the BDSM look, I also think that's kind of a misnomer because it's hard to simplify a sexual affinity into like.. a single look. Don't get me started on 50 Shades of Grey. *puts gun in mouth* All that said, the other full time concept artist on the ChampUP team, Lonewingy (concept artist for Nami & her skins, Azir, and part of the Rek'Sai team also) is focusing on Eve. I leave it to her discretion because shes a better everything than I am. Again, we're still really early on in development, so there's still no solid direction.
I like Taric without tiara. I think that it would make both his face and hair look more fresh and elegant. And it creates an impression of a more open-minded and confident character. So, while having a good knight Taric, what will happen to Bloodstone Taric? Will he eventually get his evil red eyes, majestic long hair and maybe even a little edit to his voice, just to make him sound a little bit more grim and rude? I've also had an idea about Armor of the Fifth Age Taric. I'm not sure if he will still have his stun from the old kit, but if he does, what if it will look like if he's sending a "heart" to stun his enemies? And by the way, Taric with sunglasses makes me think of a trendy from a college. You know, some kind of a king among young teenagers, with a rugby ball in one hand and a cheerleader girl in the second one. But that's just a random result of my imagination :) But why college trendy? Maybe even a musician? Some counterpart to Pentakill with it's metal sounds, an electric band vocalist & keyboard man playing synthpop/synthwave, something similar to Depeche Mode or Tesla Boy with it's 80's influence? *Imagining Taric with a voice of Depeche Mode's Dave Gahan* Whoa... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0AKJMGxwpE
Krizalid Brando
OH GOD YOU LIKE TESLA BOY. One of my new favorites.
I definitely like the references you're picking here, I am pretty excited to see where you're going with it! My only nitpick would be that I see him more as early 30s than late 30s, but that's almost negligible to bring up. Tiara or no tiara is the same to me. Maybe make the base model tiaraless and add it on one/some of the skins? If you're taking ideas, a possible way to modernise him would be in the haircut. Since he's going to be armoured, you can't pick an outfit that makes him look dashing (like Flynn Rider), facial hair is probably not going to happen (maybe a Yasuo-like five-o-clock shadow for his bloodstone skin?), and accessories are going to have to be on the same vein as his armour, you're going to have to make do with giving him an appealing hairstyle.
ShadowKnight1224
I can understand the nitpick. I guess my angle is skewed because I'M in my early 30's and I'm hoping to god that late 30's isn't "old". I feel you on the tiara-less option for the base honestly, and that slots into one of your points. Giving him a bit more modern of a cut (I'm looking into like.. long-ish Final Fantasy sorta hairdos) makes the tiara thing difficult. Tiara's create an EXTREMELY dated look in my opinion and almost force the hair to part down the middle. Doesn't always happen, but it makes it hard to make a modern or "fashionable" haircut work.
Not exactly. Ok, yes, hes a tank, he has the highest defensive stats in the game. The thing about Rammus was that he doesn't "tank"early game. He's meant to be a high sustain fighter who uses high armor instead of AD and lifesteal to wreck face in the jungle. The tanks like Sejuani and Nautilus use heavy waveclear. The idea is to sit in jungle and slowly powerfarm, while Rammy relies on early scary ganks. I consider Rammus more of a hyper bruiser than a tank, since his only AOE is his ultimate, and 9/10 times your powerball is only going to hit one enemy.
Remlap1223
Rammus is a tank as much as the other two, and Nautilus' contribution is ganks too. Their ability to jungle is too weak. I want to focus on how to make them able to jungle, since a tank should be contributing ganks more than not.
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