Patch Chat 6.7 - Playtesting 101

submitted in Dev Corner
Hey all, Welcome back to Patch Chat! We’re Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high ranking League players whose job it is to play the hell out of things (lane tests, competitive testing, etc) and give actionable, objective feedback to designers. Every two weeks (concurrent with the release of patch notes), we’re going to be hosting a discussion here on the state of balance on the current patch. **Take this opportunity to ask us any questions about the state of the game.** Today, we’ll be talking about the [Patch 6.7](http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-67-notes) Kindred changes, detailing the iterative process we use in playtesting, how patch notes evolve as they pass through our team, and what skills we use as playtesters. Prospective playtesters, listen in, and if you think you’re up to snuff, [consider applying](http://www.riotgames.com/careers/41508)! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **Context** First, we get a changelist with the context for the change. In this case, Kindred has been dominating the early game, but only in the hands of experienced players. The proposed solution? Lower base damage on Dance of Arrows, a decreased heal on Wolf’s Frenzy, and Lamb’s Respite can only be self-cast now. How quickly we understand the context and how it suits - or doesn’t suit - the changes is probably the most critical part of our job. The question isn’t always about power. We don’t just want to nerf Kindred, we want to do so in a way that won’t punish inexperienced Kindred players that much. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **Hypothesis** From here, we try to make predictions about the changelist. We like the change to Wolf’s Frenzy; with lower sustain early on, Kindred players won’t be as able to use their massive sustain advantage early to invade and gank while other junglers are left chugging their potions. Moreover, since the heal is contingent on movement, higher level players who are kiting camps more will actually feel this nerf more strongly. Same goes for the Lamb’s Respite change: inexperienced players will benefit from the more intuitive use of their ult. Our main concern is that the Dance of Arrows nerf hits new Kindred players too hard, killing their early clear speed and dueling potential. In other words, the Q changes are skill agnostic - they hit experienced and inexperienced Kindred players about the same. Unlike the other proposed changes, this doesn’t line up with the goals of the changelist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **Testing** When testing, we can’t just run a few random games and come away convinced. We’re limited to only a few tests per change on a given patch, and we can’t test everything. To compensate, we want to isolate as many variables as possible. Here, since we're concerned with Kindred’s early invade power, we set them up to succeed against immobile junglers like Cho’Gath and (spoilers) Taric, and set them up to fail against pressure fighters like Rek’Sai and Lee Sin. Four snowballed Kindreds later, we come away with one conclusion: Kindred is still capital-S Strong in the hands of experienced, high Elo players, despite these nerfs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **Feedback** However, we continue to have concerns about the Q nerfs. Our assessment is that Kindred probably would survive nerfs of this magnitude, but the hit to Dance of Arrows makes the champion quite hard if you’re new to the Eternal Hunters. Fast forward through a few days of discussion with designers and the Q changes get pulled: Patch 6.7 ships two Kindred changes, targeting their two zone abilities, but not Dance of Arrows. It’s not always that simple, of course. Sometimes we fail to convince designers. Sometimes a change ships that we are still concerned about. Sometimes we’re right, and sometimes we’re wrong, and overall the Core Gameplay Discipline grows and learns when to trust our instincts and when to stick to their design. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have any questions about what it’s like to work as a Riot playtester? Maybe some questions about other, non-Kindred changes in 6.7? As usual, feel free to ask any questions about balance or what exactly our job is! We will be around for the next few hours and will try to answer as many questions as possible. Adam "_Afic_" Cohen Ben “_Cezium_” Burkhardt Shawn “_I Am The IRS_” Currie Miles “_Daydreamin_” Hoard Scott “_Sickoscott_” Hong Mattias “_Gentleman Gustaf_” Lehman Nicholas “_Nickwu_” Smith Blake “_Ex Shepherd_” Soberanis Trevor “_ThEntropist_” Thernes
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Kei143 (NA)
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Just heard the Playtest Podcast. Was curious what this process was for early season MF & Graves. Also, what were the results of the KOB test (if it was performed) for those two. --- EDIT: ALSO FIRST !!! FINALLY
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I actually **was** the KOB test for Graves. When I'm doing well on a Marksman, we know there's a problem. We knew there was a problem. We just didn't quite realize how much of a problem there was. Biggest confounding variable was builds. A lot of creative Graves builds came out over time that continued to make Graves stronger and stronger.
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So...was your goal to make sure that Kindred stayed capital S strong after the changes? Because that seems...strange, to me.
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Definitely not. Our goal was to make sure we didn't absolutely kill this champion for first-time players. This is especially important on a jungler, given how frustrating an experience it is to have a jungler struggle on your team.
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Okay, but if the changes kept them as capital S- strong for experienced, high ELO players, you didn't actually change anything.
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Kindred will likely need to be revisited in the near future. It is common for there to be initial changes, have them tested, realize they don't quite hit the goals in the ways we want, and then be iterated on.
cemorn (NA)
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Uh....shouldn't you expect any experienced, high ELO player to consistently get S's on all champs? Like what, would making Kindred a solid "D" for experienced players be the kind of change you're looking for?
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Nobody gets S every game just like nobody wins every game, especially not on every champ. Results variation is important. Otherwise we may as well have the matchmaking system simply give the win to whichever team has the highest average MMR and not bother making people play the game.
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I'm not talking in terms of champion mastery. I'm talking in terms of champion balance. I'd like Kindred to have reasons to be picked, but also reasons to be not picked. I don't want to see them every game.
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Their combined pick ban rate is about 12.5%, so I wouldn't be too worried about that{{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
allsop (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Gentleman Gustaf,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=NjddhxGg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-04-05T19:29:12.136+0000) > > Definitely not. Our goal was to make sure we didn't absolutely kill this champion for first-time players. This is especially important on a jungler, given how frustrating an experience it is to have a jungler struggle on your team. Where in the patch notes does it say Kindreds Q base damage was nerfed? I'm looking at it right now and it only says "W heal down early but up late. R is now self-cast."
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It was one of the original changes that shipped to PBE, but got scrapped partway through
Saixos (EUW)
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Warlords has been used as the defensive summoner on ADCs for me, stuff like Sivir who I want to scale with a bit and don't benefit well from other summoners. Melee champions seem to be using grasp far more than warlords. I've noticed warlords being a little -too- good on ADCs sometimes, but I think that a 50% cut is overkill - wouldn't something like 40% or 35% be much nicer and still allow ADCs who want a defensive keystone take it to help them get through a harsh lane a bit? EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, I kinda feel grasp could use some kind of nerf as well. What are the playtest team's thoughts on grasp?
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The problem we've been having with Warlord's is the number of entirely uninteractive lanes it can creat. Ultimately a mastery which reduces - rather than creates - gameplay isn't really meeting the goals we have.
Kei143 (NA)
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Also, just finished reading through the original post & patch notes. So here are a bunch more questions!! 1. During the Kindred test was it the same player playing Kindred? 2. Were those Kindred players jungler mains against jungler mains? 3. Curious to see the test plan & results for the Poppy & Zed changes. Care to share? 4. When doing play tests. Do you guys mimic some of the newer builds [items / skill paths] that come to light? (ex. Graves) 5. Do you guys ever come up with new builds and theory craft for "competitiveness" in playtests? 5. What is the test plan like for masteries? 6. Give me (a bronzie) some more context on the vision adjustments? Anything I can abuse to help me climb? 7. Do you guys test anything in rotating game modes? 8. Do you guys test those pesky bugs (in the list of bug fixes)? Or is that QA's job?
I'll answer the ones I worked on/have knowledge on. 1. We had a few different people play Kindred to get a few different perspectives. 2. 1 of them was challenger jungle main, 1 plays both jungle and top, and the other has played a fair amount of Kindred but is not a jungle main. 3. I was responsible for the Zed changes on Playtest's side of things. There were a lot of different directions that we tried out(Q base nerfs, Q base scaling nerfs, Q pass through damage nerfs, Q multiple hit % buffs with Q nerfs, more aggressive W nerfs, etc) and so we did a lot of lane testing. Lane testing is a simple way for us to get initial reads on changes because you only need 2 people to load up and quickly feel out how a lane may go in complete isolation. This allowed us to fast fail things that felt really bad and move to full scale tests for things that seemed promising. Once we got to full testing the topic of how much we expect these changes to hit Zed came into the equation and we compared that to the goals and iterated from there. 4. We do both. Some people on Playtest are very innovative and are always coming up with their new crazy builds (Titanic Hydra Cho' Gath) and then we also run the FotM builds. 5. ^ 6. That would need a very in depth responses. High level would be to feel out what we feel is strong, find which ones we would never take, then take them and decide how to buff them into relevance. It is way more complicated than that but it's all about making sure the options are viable. 7. Very minor. No major take aways that I can give.
Cosnirak (NA)
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Why did you decide against any Q nerfs to Zed? Does Riot want to maintain his status as a lane bully? I feel like the Zed nerfs that are coming in 6.7 are kind of minor. The W cd will help with laning against him a little but it seems like you guys mostly hit his mid game split pushing and team fighting capabilities. This will hurt him a lot more at the pro level I think while leaving him largely the same in less skilled hands, where he can much more easily become a dominating monster.
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I remember watching the lane tests with those Q changes. Zed was getting smashed pretty hard, and the other person ended up being like, 'wait, are you maxing Q first?' ThEntropist looked over with a frustrated expresion and said 'yes....' It's possible that we simply had the numbers wrong, but it was such an impactful nerf that Q was simply not doing enough.
We tried them and decided that they would be too impacting because a nerf to q base hits him heavily at every point in the game. Especially because his damage is amped against itself so a small nerf can become major quite quickly. Personally I wanted to try a change where we decrease the base by quite a bit but removed the fall off for each subsequent shuriken hit so that we would reward players that hit 2 or 3 but hurt the players that only hit 1. Sadly it was out of scope of the changes and would need a lot more testing and still may cause other unrealized problems. I think these changes definitely hurt his laning more than any other aspect of Zed. He has had a very safe lane in the past and this means he will need to make more of a decision to play aggressive or save his escape tool. As for the W AD ratio nerf, he was getting a lot of unappreciated power that seemed to be an easy place to shave power off.
Cosnirak (NA)
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Did you try a small Q nerf like just -5 base damage? I understand the compounding damage issue thanks to his W but I think a Q base nerf would encourage Zeds to back at least once without just always waiting until they've shoved and/or harassed (or straight up killed) their lane opponent out of the lane first. His Q ratio is so high that with one early back he can easily come in and just wreck waves and champs alike anyways, though that probably requires not nerfing his W passive, which I agree is a problem. The problem with his lane safety is that it's too hard punish him for his W being down. You typically need a gank to do it and even then he might live (especially once he has hexdrinker if you're ap). His harass is long ranged so trying to punish it is really sketchy and often how you die to a gank from HIS jungler anyways. The biggest issue here is that as I said this affects his high tier play a lot more than his low tier play. Lower skilled players don't punish well if at all, don't know his W cd let alone track it, and struggle a lot more against his rather fast flying projectile harass because they're not as good at anticipating it.
We tried lots and lots of different Q nerfs. Including small ones like -5 AD. Changing that ability hits zed very hard for a few reasons: 1. As you mentioned reducing base changes it for each shuriken hit so it makes a -5 base into a -10 or -15 with a third hit(Not counting reducing damage for simplicity) 2. His ult also is based on the damage he has done during it, so it gets multiplied there. 3. He uses his Q for poke, waveclear, and all ins. So hitting Q can be a dangerous place to touch. Not saying it is ruled out in the future we just went with some changes that we felt met the goals while still letting the players feel good about what they have.
Cosnirak (NA)
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I feel like the power in his Qs _needs_ to be reduced, in part because of what you said. It's simply too big, too important. Like the US's largest banks, it's too big to fail which means it's too big to exist. It needs to be broken up. His E is an aoe with a low cd that encourages him to get in close with his enemies, perhaps shifting some of his power out of his Q and into his E would be appropriate.
We will agree to disagree then. Edit: To add to this. My opinion on moving power into E feels really bad. We tried a model with significantly lower Q base and it made people just want to max E. E is a no counter play ability other than "don't be around Zed.. ever" and that is not fun for anyone. There used to be a world where Zed maxed E and it made you feel like you can not out play him at all. Having power in Shurikens is much better in my opinion.
maybe zed needs a rework. if his kit is too troublesome to properly tune, that may very well be a sign his kit needs a 2016 technology update.
Personally I believe Zed is the best designed assassin in our game. He has good counter play while having huge play making capability. Every champion will have problems associated with them, but that doesn't mean they need a rework.
Saixos (EUW)
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Question, what is your/the playtest team's opinion on the much requested nerf to Zed "Make his passive not apply to minions"? Has that been experimented with? Conclusion if I had to guess would be that it nerfs Zed for players at lower elos but does nothing at highers which is a change that doesn't really fit Zed that well.
I don't think nerfing Zed at just lower levels would be the goal and that is what this would accomplish. Higher level players will adjust and still get the majority of CS while lower level players will miss much more because of it.
Cosnirak (NA)
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I don't feel like there's any ability to outplay his Q besides staying outside its range either. :( Who would get close to Zed now that wouldn't if E were more important, is it just Yasuo? More usefully though I didn't mean to imply that his E should be the thing he maxes first, level of shift, just a small shift from his Q into his E so that he isn't such an unbelievably oppressive jerk in lane.
Zed's Q is certainly out playable, especially the second 1 coming from a shadow. You can dodge it, use a move block, or flash it.
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Why did you all decide to reduce the length of {{champion:136}} stun, instead of just lowering the damage on his stars/ Q? I'm really just curious on how you all decide what aspect of a kit needs to be altered.
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We typically don't have as much input on the specific changes, and we more test whether or not given changes accomplish the goals. With that said, the stars and their damage are what make {{champion:136}} unique, while the Q will still provide similar utility. The way I look at it is if the stars did 0 damage while the Q damage was crazy, you could make a number of comparisons to other champions (aoe nuke/cc). If the Q doesn't exist on the kit and the stars do crazy damage, this is still a unique kit. Basically the goal is to shave off some of the extra power while keeping specific strengths. The phrase that I have been using is 'sharpen his strengths and accentuate his weaknesses'. With this approach champions can continue to feel different and unique as opposed to every champion having very similar strengths/weaknesses with a few of them mathematically better than others.
How much goes into balancing the Howling Abyss for champions/items? I play a lot of ARAMs and I have to say, I have seen WAY too much tankiness there, and it can be almost impossible to beat. I literally have had a fiora build tank with warmogs and just waltz right through everyone killing us with true damage and not dying, and had an MF with warmogs still wrecking everyone's faces. It is even worse when you are an AP mage, because there just isn't enough Magic Pen to break through all the MR that tanks can get. What kinds of thought goes into fixing these sorts of issues, or is the Abyss secondary to keeping the Rift balanced?
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I can't speak to what goes into that specifically, but I do know that it is specifically NOT our area of expertise/focus
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Is Aurelion a better laner, or jungler?
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Data suggests that he is best in mid lane. I personally think he is too easy to punish in the jungle if the enemy aggressively takes fights to him early. Additionally one of his biggest strengths is roaming. Although he can gank relatively well from the jungle, a coordinated roam from mid + gank from jungle can set up a 4v2 that completely swings a game.
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Why are all of the less-mobile ADCs out of fashion? Even *Jinx* isn't that popular now.
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Jinx got hit with some nerfs a couple of patches ago, so I would say that is her biggest impacting factor. Jhin is actually seeing quite a bit of play though, so I wouldn't go as far as to say _all_ of the less-mobile ADCs are out of fashion.
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Yo guys! How's Master Yi? He has some really interesting changes on the PBE and I'm curious about what the goals are with it. And what are your thoughts on Sunfire Cape and Grasp of the Undying?
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We are still getting games in on Yi. He is definitely still able to run over a game, but the specific goals are to reduce frustration while playing against him. One of the most difficult things to do from a design point of view is to reduce enemy frustration without impacting overall strength of a champion. That is an overview of the goals for the Yi changes, but we will see how effectively we are able to accomplish that. My thoughts on Sunfire Cape is that it _probably_ wave clears a bit too well. Grasp of the Undying is also probably just too strong in general. I expect grasp to see some form of nerf in the near future.
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It's kinda sad that a Tank focused mastery is getting nerfed for being taken on non-tank characters building tanky, and as such Tanks suffer that change as well. It's the whole "Tank Fiora and Tank Yi" commotion over again.
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Don't worry, if Grasp gets nerfed, it'll be because it's strong overall. Rammus Top following a whole train of tanks rising to top lane is almost a direct result of Grasp of the Undying. It's merely an indication of how strong it is that non-tanks can follow suit; it's in a sort of "if you can't beat em, join em" place right now.
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Honestly? Even as a Master Yi main myself, I have to admit that he's been in need of deeper balance changes for a long time. He's always gotta be balanced around bronze/silver/gold while almost all other champions are balanced around diamond/master/challenger. It's... frustrating. I was really hoping he could see serious competitive play someday, but that'll never happen.
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There's this weird myth that Yi is only good against noobs and we have to balance him around bronze so he's useless in Diamond+ Truth is he's doing pretty damn well at high Elos as well.
Dreampod (NA)
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Since Taric just got revealed: What are the strategies the playtest team uses to cope with high mobility champs as targeted CC gets phased out of the game? I'm a mere Gold player so team coordination to burst targets down really isn't a thing and it seems like champs with dashes/flashes/jumps/etc are able to use them to avoid the CC that is the intended (?) counter to mobility and makes playing most of my favourite mages a terribly sad experience.
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In my experience Taric was rarely used to counter high mobility champs. While that may not be the case at all ELOs, there are still plenty of ways to play around the more mobile characters. If a champion is more mobile, they typically have less power in their kit elsewhere. That generally means if you CAN hit them with a CC, they are more likely to be punished. A good way to hit high mobility champions is to cast your CC from fog of war. Baiting in general will often put the enemy in poor positions. My personal favorite bait is around Baron. If the enemy has a blue trinket ward in the baron pit, I like to start baron, then kill the ward, then stop baron and wait. Last thing the enemy saw as us doing baron. When they walk in you then get easy picks.
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Bunch of question here goes. 1. Is the poppy's dash travels the same distance as her old e? I know her e range was nerf but the dash distance remains the same? I still want to bash people from dragon pit into the wall on red buff. 2. What you think about tank items? Many assassin or ap mage that can gap close start building tank items. Example of people building tank item are tank ekko, graves, and alaki. Do you think that champions that build tank item have enough high base damage that they don't really need damage items or tank item are too strong? 3. Why not nerf zed q? I thought with the new item for ad assassin, duskblade, was suppose to solve the issue that assassin's items overlap with marksman's item. That's why assassin originally has high base damage with low scaling. Zed still have high base damage but decent scaling even after the duskblade has settle in. 4. Can graves be looked at? I felt that graves have too much damage and so much tankiness to kill him. Takes too much resources to kill him.
1. The nerf is about in the middle of where we buffed it in 5.23 and the previous versions. Still longer than on release. 2. I don't really consider Graves as someone who builds tank items. Only real tank item he gets is Sterak's and that still has some AD. It may be an issue with the items themselves or with specific champions not tuned to build the correct path. It honestly is case by case but I personally do not see any huge problems. May need to revisit Akali and Ekko to make sure they are in a healthy spot or if more are popping up take a look at the itemization. 3. I answered this in an earlier comment. "We tried them and decided that they would be too impacting because a nerf to q base hits him heavily at every point in the game. Especially because his damage is amped against itself so a small nerf can become major quite quickly. Personally I wanted to try a change where we decrease the base by quite a bit but removed the fall off for each subsequent shuriken hit so that we would reward players that hit 2 or 3 but hurt the players that only hit 1. Sadly it was out of scope of the changes and would need a lot more testing and still may cause other unrealized problems. I think these changes definitely hurt his laning more than any other aspect of Zed. He has had a very safe lane in the past and this means he will need to make more of a decision to play aggressive or save his escape tool. As for the W AD ratio nerf, he was getting a lot of unappreciated power that seemed to be an easy place to shave power off." 4. Graves is being looked at currently. Nothing set in stone but he is on our radar.
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Got any plans for Jayce?
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He just got buffed. Probably gonna let him sit where he is for a bit
Jayce was looked at last patch. Seems to be quite a bit happier than before.
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im glad you start to talk about playtesting.. but kindred is not very important to me, and you ARE killing poppy's E, which in turn.. kills poppy. giving it a decent range was the one thing that made her become usefull. before, when you charged anybody, they saw you coming. it was obvious and there was a lot of time to prepare for it. too much time. there was pretty much zero chance to not be stunned/pushed/slowed/etc , breaking the charge... or the target would dash/blink/flash away.. and you would be yourself "stunned" against the wall, not your target.. with the extra range, all that changed. the ability suddenly could be used more effectively. as should have been from the beginning. poppy's E range was ok for dominion. but it was not ok for normal rift games. until you fixed it. now you are taking that range away. and its breaking my heart. **its also obvious that her power is not dependant on the ability's utility, but in poppy's damage output.** also: - the ultimate's "instantaneous" usage should be the same as a malph ulti, but with lesser range. meaning, there is no reason at all to make the enemies invulnerable during this type of use. - W gets better damage with AP.... This is ridiculous. there is no other stat or ability that gets better with ap in all the poppy's kit. whoever designed AP to inflict damage whenever someone dashes through your W should be fired. oh.. lets go and try a full AP poppy?... the only explanation must be drunk designers and balance nodders **want to balance poppy? take some damage out of her. not too much or she might not be able to farm and that is bad, but do it. force her to not go full tank if she wants to do more damage. thats all..** ps. why dont you go, and remove 20% of the range out of lee sin? how would ppl feel about that?
*balance Dude, don't make fun of the designers, they work hard to make sure all champions are fun and equal. It is hard to expect very little of them, but it is very rude to undermine them, all changes are given heart.
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I think in general, designers avoid giving an ability 0 scaling. It wouldn't make sense for W to have AD scaling, and more importantly, it would make tuning her even more difficult.
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**W already scales out of armor and MR for added defense.** is there really a need for it to "scale" in ap? when you know it will never ever happen? does it make you guys feel like the ability is more tuneable if it does scale in something that doesnt actually ever scale? this makes sense then? i would rather it didnt scale at all in AP, instead it could work better, like blocking ekkos dashes or ezreals, for instance.. making it large enough that encompases the full E area, so if you have it "on" and you casted E on a target, they WONT EVER GET AWAY... that could be smart designing. if you guys insist in making the E a 425 range spell, then you should make poppy have a CC shield like sivir's while she is launching herself forward. with those two changes, the charge will become sort of reliable (if you have enough mana!) it will give you a boost when you remember making the W-E combo on dashers, and you wont be stopped mid dash just because the range means you are so obvious in your intentions... you can also make two set of ranges in E: range 1: from poppy to target max range. = 425 range 2: from target to wall = +100. in this case, the ability has same range as before, but is actually usable. . so...** tldr..** - w already scales with AR and MR so scaling in ap is making your "balancing" more confusing than it should, as poppy will never have any ap at all. - reducing range on E hurts her a lot. she becomes super predictable and it becomes extremely easy to ignore her as a threat. to retain shorter range but also fix this problem, two changes: activating E grants a 1s. shield vs CC and if W is active, it affects the target (no dashing) once she starts her own dash. - other option is to change E to have two ranges, pretty much as bard's stun
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How would that be smart design? If you ever were within her E/W range, you'd be unable to dash away and then stunned. Same goes for adding a spell shield; now you wouldn't even be able to use knockbacks to escape Poppy. Ability sets need counterplay to constitute good design. The **potential** for combos is good, but abilities that can always seamlessly and thoughtlessly be used together often lead to stagnant gameplay. Poppy is more interesting because there are a number of ways you can effectively chain her abilities together, rather than just having one combo that is optimal. If anything, her ability to stun and then block dashes is already too reliable a combo that prevents opposing players from having enough counterplay. If the AP scaling were taken away, that wouldn't be reason to buff the ability overall, given that Poppy's don't really itemize for AP.
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because you made the range so small on her E, that anybody can see her coming and keep out of her range, and/or just stop having walls behind you. from bronze 4 and above, whoever doesnt understand what is poppy going to do when she runs at you and you are against a wall... then you probably never ever played agaisnt her before. that used to be a thing actually.. but not anymore. you can always dash out or/and cc her, as long as you do so BEFORE she starts dashing towards you. and this "before" is were her predictability enters the play. being more predictable means more counterplay. not less. that is smart design. or you can leave the range as it was in 525, and the same logic will be applied. less predictability but more chances to react once she starts dashing towards you. this is more dependable on individual ping/latency ofc, therefore a bit less smart. arguably, less "op situations" derived from the CC shield. so for me, her charge was perfect. but if you are going to change the range, then you should be making more changes in the kit to compensate. ps. yes. poppy doesnt itemize for ap. i did mention that a few times. that is why it is ridiculous to have an ability scaling of ap in the first place. "buffing" is not the same as to "make it work as expected". ergo if i mentioned it to block fkn ekko's dashes or ezreals blinks, its not because it needs "buffs" but "reliability" and "expected outcome" also known as "clarity" which was a quite frequent tag not long ago. same goes for "instant cast R" invulnerability for enemies. makes no sense. its not expected. no clarity. //edited a lot, sry if got you in mid answer.. im done now lol.
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Poppy is already quite strong, and can survive nerfs without compensation. Moreover, dashes vs blinks is a pretty consistent distinction that has considerations for other champions. Veigar E, Every hook, and a number of move blocks interact differently with dashes than they do with blinks. If there is no AP being gotten, the AP ratio shouldn't matter, so I'm not sure why it's a big deal to you... Her charge may have been perfect for you, but Poppy is the 6th most banned champion in the game with almost a 30% ban rate. The 5 champions banned more than her all have win rates above 50%, while she has a win rate below 50%. That suggests an intense amount of player dissatisfaction **separated from strengths**. The easiest way to solve that problem by making the more binary aspect of her kit (dive) less inevitable
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This question has already surfaced a few times in the Gameplay board, actually. If I remember correctly, the answer at the time was that it opens possibilities for people to try alt builds, give a little more power to AP items you would take for their actives/passives more than their stats (Trinity when it had AP, Zhonya...), etc. That's all good, but still... A lot of champs have a single AP ratio, very little magic damage and would never consider an AP alt build. And the argument about AP items is not really convincing anymore, with Trinity having lost its AP. So it's normal that people wonder about all that, it does seem strange (even if the guys here is being a jerk about it :s).
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A lot of it has to do with clarity. some abilities just don't really make sense to have AD ratios because they're so clearly **magical** Essentially, an AP ratio on a champion like Poppy is - essentially - no ratio at all. I understand that Trinity Force doesn't have AP **anymore** but that's a relatively recent development. I can just imagine the threads of - Rito pls can I have AP on my W so I can use the AP from Natural Talent? No ratio at all is something which exists on **very** few abilities. Giving an AD ratio adds more power budget into the champion which would have to be balanced elsewhere. An AP ratio is a reasonable solution to that problem.
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The reason her ultimate makes opponents untargetable as opposed to merely knocking them up is simple: Poppy's identity as a peeler is reliant more on keeping carries alive, not on comboing champions to death.
Guardman (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Gentleman Gustaf,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=NjddhxGg,comment-id=00200001,timestamp=2016-04-05T23:59:06.919+0000) > > The reason her ultimate makes opponents untargetable as opposed to merely knocking them up is simple: Poppy's identity as a peeler is reliant more on keeping carries alive, not on comboing champions to death. I know you guys see Poppy as a tank/peeler, but as one of the people that still plays current Poppy as an assassin like the old Poppy the E range reduction hurts really hard. When Poppy first came out with the low E range assassin Poppy was almost unusable because there were too few ambush spots that you could stun from and you were really telegraphed. The range increase fixed this as it opened up a ton of ambush spots and wasn't as telegraphed. But this subsequent range reduction is enough that she is for all intents and purposes back in the same space as when she first was released. Also as an aside, one of the things I would really like as an assassin Poppy player is to lower the knock-up time for her ult so that when used at point blank range right after hitting her Q it would have them become targetable again in time so that they can be hit with the second part of Q.
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Why not just E -> Q -> Second Hit of Q -> R?
Guardman (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Gentleman Gustaf,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=NjddhxGg,comment-id=0020000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-06T00:58:08.652+0000) > > Why not just E -> Q -> Second Hit of Q -> R? Sorry if I wasn't that clear (looking back I accidentally the whole verb on the reason...). I am talking more of when you don't have E (cooldown) or when you are fighting in a place that you can't E to stun them. It would probably be a nerf to tank Poppy, but it would be a big buff to assassin Poppy as she now is not solely reliant on stunning with her E (since the range is lower).
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Ah. The reason for that is simple; it adds too much consistency to her kit. We want Poppy to have damage, but we want her damage to be contingent (otherwise she becomes one of those tanky bruisers with too much consistent damage that people love to hate) Poppy has great utility, and if she uses it well, she is rewarded with extra damage from her Q. There's nothing hard about landing her snap ult, and so rewarding her with followup Q damage makes no sense.
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Have you guys noticed the lack of damage carriers top side? even maybe jungle? With tank items and champs {{champion:54}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:48}} being so strong its kinda shoving damage dealers out of the top lane. You probably know of the challenger ranked, TSM sub, and streamer Valkrin. His current moto is "League of Tanks (if you can't beat them then join them)" I am suffering this. Please help. I love damage dealing carry's topside so I can carry my team but meta is forcing me away from this. which is hurting in the sol que. Are you guys looking to adjust this or do you like it?
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It should be noted that I'm a playtester and not a designer, so this is my opinion as a player. Damage dealers force out other champions in mid/ADC, why shouldn't tanks be able to do the same somewhere? When damage dealers force out tanks top lane the only thing that is left is the low-gold roles (jungle/support). Tanks want to lane, too!
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Thank you for your response, and I understand you don't represent the whole of Riot, but why not let Tanks mid and bot, and bring variety? Overall we have a very stagnant game that is completely revolving around tanks. ADC is ADC, the only reliable tank killers(All of the off meta bottom attempts keep losing unless fed). Mid is AP damage/waveclear{{champion:42}}{{champion:99}} (maybe an assassin if you feel like the perma playable zed{{champion:238}} ), Jungles are either tanks killers{{champion:203}} or tanks{{champion:79}} and and sups{{champion:201}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:12}} are forced tank /tank supporting utility{{champion:16}} {{champion:40}}. It's great to have tanks that can lane, but tops and jungles have always been about finishing off your teams comp in a meaningful way, like being able to choose scaling damage, tank or brawler. I know you can always go whatever you want in LoL. However, I feel like I'm hurting my teams chances of winning if I'm not a tank or tank killing ADC right now.
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There has yet to be a meta which doesn't include an ADC. The fundamental basis of our game relies on an ADC and often a mage. I think that fact colors people's perception of the game because they see all metas through that filter.
Kyth (NA)
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But as soon as they receive the damage needed to push them out of lane, then they lose their title as a traditional "tank" don't they? Tanks have always been decent in damage in LoL so i understand that's the way it is. But tanks are great because they are tanky, once you give them damage then they have the best of both worlds.
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being a tank has more to do with CC/initiation/peel than it does tankiness. ALthough I agree that them getting damage is a problem.
Frius (EUNE)
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do you play aatrox ? because i think ppl even forgot he exists ,how easily is to buff irelia dmg without items and more with items 20% ad more on Q trinity /tank ,heal ,true dmg ,dash ,slow/stun ,another heal etc what about aatrox ?i dont even think u tested him in 100 patches .
We have played Aatrox. He isn't in any of our main pools but we do have someone who plays him every one and a while. Definitely more than once per 100 patches.
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Why does Kindred R have to be less for "players out of position?" Thresh's lantern is the most mistake saving spell in the game. You're out of position over a wall? Well now you're shielded and back with the team! Kindred R potentially helps the enemy team too, doesn't actually fix the mistake the player made, and has a far shorter range than Thresh's lantern. Why can't Kindred help out of position allies, but Thresh can? The entire point of Kindred's R is to stop someone from dying. Even if they're out of position. Thresh's lantern was designed the same. Kindred R has practically no use now...
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The radius and cast ranges of Kindred's R are pretty similar; if you were in range to use it on somebody on live to save them, you should still be in range to use it on yourself (and catch them in the range) now. However, Thresh's W and Kindred's R are also different abilities on different champions with different goals and contexts; there's no need for them to be comparable in every way.
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You asked to have top laners stop relying on Teleport for map control WHY add Rift Herald, that just makes it a 11/10 must have now The new mastery system, it's kind of ruined the fine line of tanks/devourer champions when nautilus/ANY tank can kill everything. Is there a direction or change for this considering they have insane move speed and the most CC in the game? - with boots of movement speed/lucidity being cheap and the only thing people buy? Whats the point of making a champion so tanky but still spit out the most damage in game? examples: Poppy, udyr, shen and etc? Is there TRULY a direction this season with how champions are moving because there's just no in-between like the good old days. Instead it's you're either a 2 second melting devourer or a tank that CC's you for days until you're dead? WHY NERF TALON IF ZED IS AT LARGE? Talon's Zed's #1 COUNTER... AND INSTEAD OF NERFIN THE ITEM THAT MADE ZED OP, "AND ALL OTHER ASSASSINS" You nerf the champion himself. IS there going to be a patch note that will finally allow players who haven't been punished by the tribunal SINCE hextech crafting that they can finally receive loot? A lot of my friends refuse to play because of how salty it makes them in general. If there's less people joining the league of legends community than earlier this season/last season, wouldn't you think that there's a problem with the patch notes coming out? Toxicity has risen because of hextech crafting, people are salt whenever they don't receive loot making them have no better reason to better themselves. (friends have played over 40 games since it's been out and still 0 rewards) Is this going to change? Why implement Duskblade of Draktharr when you removed Deathfire grasp. Word for word you guys: "Wanted less people to be popped wthin making contact, we want people to have more of a chance to fight back. As well for the balance of AP mid laners and AD mid laners." ISNT THIS CONTRADICTING? This season was supposed to be about marksmen, Why's it about tanks/Devourer... WILL WE EVER STOP SEEING OP CHANGES TO JUNGLERS/TANKS? The meta is too large right now with an extremely large pool of champions that are "viable" But only some are OP, the good old seasons where there was maybe 6-8 TOPS is now 15+. Are we going to see more ban slots? Or are you guys actually going to balance out the champions that matter/have the highest ban rate or leave them to control the meta. The way i see it is, the game just keeps getting worse and worse, my friends stop playing due to toxicity or 0 rewards. The new champions that come out just get left in the corner to rust because the META is so horrible. The changes are too fast without an ounce of thought (Thunderlords/warlords/fervor). The game is beginning to have 0 OUTPLAY potential, example: Zed used to be HARD To play and there's a reason for that. Now you put a duskblade on him and he just 1 shots and any bronze player can achieve easy double kills. The tank lines are extremely aggrovating and wont get off but can still 1v1 bruisers like volibear does a pot of honey. Devourer, lets be honest. you Didn't make getting stacks THAT hard... Tank items, let's be honest they deal more AD than a BOTRK these days, and they cost much less? How does one counter warmogs/SF cape? lol? HELLO? All in all, my time is coming very soon and these changes are getting nasty. I see less and less of my friends log in each day and they have swapped over to MMORPG's or back to DOTA. I love this game, but as history has repeated itself the company within it will drive it into the ground... RIP Runescape, Rappelz, GW2, World of Warcraft AND here lies League of legends dipping their toes into the grave - beginning RIPS of 2015
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I feel you, I don't play that often anymore. It is because of these changes that it has become this. I look at the patches and just get off. Seeing how tanks are still overpowered is overwhelming. Classic Riot was better when they just nerfed the scaling. Because they obviously can't handle big changes. Or with this team at least. Your question is so long that I doubt a Rioter will attempt to tackle it.
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"Question" is a nice way of framing it. Rambling, untargeted, shotgun style rant, befitting a talk radio host like Glenn Beck or Michael Savage perhaps.
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>Rambling, untargeted, shotgun style rant But something to address regardless since every point he's made hits key problems League is having, yet hardly anything is being done about them. Riot seems to be shrugging and believing everything is fine when it very much isn't... Edit: To the downvoters, I don't care if I had gotten an answer personally or not, I just hate seeing purposely avoided condescending responses.
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alright: 1) We haven't asked top laners to stop taking TP 2) There have been nerfs to either a top lane tank or a devourer champion or both in almost every patch this season. 3) We also nerfed Zed 4) Actions have consequences. If toxic players only behave because they want a reward, there's nothing stopping them from resuming their toxic behavior once they've gotten that reward. 5) League continues to grow quite consistently in players. 6) The reason to not be a toxic asshole is to not be a toxic asshole. If somebody's only doing it for a reward/to avoid punishment, I personally would rather just not have them in the game. That's is just my personal opinion. 7) This was the reason we gave for removing DFG, so I'm not sure where you're getting your idea from. > Adding Deathfire Grasp to a bursty kit really amps up that "woah what happened to me" moment when someone nukes you from orbit. In the past, when we see mages pick up a DFG to double-down on their burst, we've had to balance around that champion which, in turn, makes them even more reliant on DFG to blow people up (or they get changed so much they find an alternative playstyle). Vicious cycle. > > Deathfire Grasp also adds a lot more reliability to a mage's assassination attempts, which means they need to commit less for them. If, for example, Ahri only needs to use one charge of Spirit Rush to nuke her target (with DFG + Q + W), she frees herself to use her other two charges to get back to safety. If we accept this will always happen with DFG, Ahri ends up without a lot of extra 'power budget' to do other cool mage-y things like sustained damage or kiting. While this is also true of Duskblade, there is an important distinction: you have significantly less control over when you use it, which reduces the reliability Moreover, the situation is different, because AP mages are not struggling, while AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational. 8) That's the first time I've heard somebody complain that the top lane meta is *too* versatile. Normally it's "when are we going to get more champion options? The meta is too stale!"
KeSoV (NA)
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> While this is also true of Duskblade, there is an important distinction: you have significantly less control over when you use it, which reduces the reliability Moreover, the situation is different, because AP mages are not struggling, while AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational. Is that why all mages are being reworked into viability?
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Only immobile mages are being reworked. The problem is that "mage" is such a broad category. You've got mage assassins like LeBlanc, Fizz, and Diana, support mages like Lulu and Lux and Morgana, stalling mages like Anivia, whatever the heck Lissandra is, Malzahar doing god knows what, and Aurelion Sol off being his own brand new type of champion. Even among the immobile mages being reworked, you've got so many different types of champions. On the AD side, on the other hand, Talon/Zed/Kha'Zix are all assassins, then you've got ADCs (who cheated there from bot) and Yasuo.
Unumalum (NA)
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Isn't the issue about making more and better AD mids then, and not about making an item that makes the few you have be picked more? Having only 4 real AD mids ever made, kinda makes it seem like we'd see them less than AP in the first place, and see them even less due to the fact that those 4 champions would never have the strategic diversity in their kits to be the best picks for a lot of games. Instead you're giving AD mids an item that buffs them to pre-DFG removale LeBlanc level so that they are picked or banned (mostly banned), just as much, if not more than mages. This then means you see less of those champions than you did before (talking about Zed's crazy high ban rate on Duskblade release), as well as the times that you do see them leading to unhealthy and unfun gameplay and itemization picks for those playing againsts them. Your excuse is "they aren't being played enough," but we aren't asking about how much AD champions are played. We're asking about WHY they are or are not being picked. Four champions that you listed as "AD mids." Could be that you just need more champions who's kits would lead them to be played mid. There are plenty of mages who don't get picked as often as AD champions even before Duskblade, but there are more mages who fit more roles more of the times than an AD. I've seen Duskblade for a while now, and I've got to say that it's not as bad as DFG, but it's still just as unhealthy and it's existence just as flawed - if not more so. So many defenses by other Rioters have been shot down and shown to be flawed on other posts. To say that 4 champions are not being picked enough is good reasoning is beyond denial at this point. Four champions. That's like complaining old Poppy Urgot Karma and Sion didn't get picked enough. Maybe the problem isn't the items they have. Maybe it's that those champions are either bad, or bad into some picks in most metas, or that other champions just do their job better - regardless of scaling off of AD or AP. Here's another thought. The meta and the lanes that most champions are currently played in doesn't allow for many AD mids. Most AP junglers aren't carry junglers who do the same amount of AP damage as a mid mage would, most AP tops are tanks or specific picks that can be banned or countered, and most supports don't get the gold income needed to be the sole AP carry for a team. Otherwise you're left with a full AD comp who either snowballs and wins early or is out scaled with armor and loses no matter. So make more AD "mid capable" champions, buff the AD champions if you have to, rework them if flat buffs feel brutish or binary, make sure there are a healthy amount of AP carry champions in other roles, and realize that until you make kits for AD mids that do the same things AP mids do - and you make enough of those champions - you're going to see most meta mid laners picking - you guessed it - mages.
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On the one hand, yes, we could use more AD mids. On the other hand, we only made 5 new champions last year. They obviously all shouldn't be AD mids (unfair to every other position who wants new champions). For the record, I don't like Duskblade. I just think that QQ rage arguments have no place in any discussion anywhere. The reason AD mids can't have the kits AP mids do is the same reason bruisers can't have the same kits tanks do. AD champions have sustained damage by default, thanks to their auto-attacks. This ultimately comes at a cost of CC (the few AD champion with heavy CC like Jarvan or Vi have historically either been very OP, forced to build pure tank, or relegated to weak status for exactly that reason). This limits the diversity of their kits because you'll never see an AD counterpart to a champion like Lulu or Orianna for that reason. However, the reason those champions see overplay is precisely because people don't pick their champions in a vacuum. Some people just **want** to play AD mids, and so those players will play whatever AD mids are available, regardless of whether they're perfect for them. Same thing is true for juggernaut mains. I love juggernauts, but there are only a few of them, and so - given the choice - I'm going to play those, even though I'd play different ones if they existed.
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This is also a nice explanation of why there are so few AD support options.
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It is indeed why we're unlikely to ever see a true AD support
> [{quoted}](name=Gentleman Gustaf,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=NjddhxGg,comment-id=002f0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-06T01:29:49.374+0000) because AP mages are not struggling, while AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational. " No Offense but are you fucking high? and have you actually been playing the game? Lets take a look at all the AD champs mid lane that require no mana, no endurance, and able to just face roll their keyboard and win..... Yas, Zed, and occasionally the rare riven, kha, and ringo...(there are more just cannot think of their names at the time) You guys are constantly releasing more and more AD items that continue adding damage for these type champions where as the AP mage's were left to flounder like a fish out of water. Lets take away the mana potions and barely give mana regen to any of the ap champions and force almost every mage player to have Biscuits in their mastery pages where he could have something else. Lets force every mage to buy Unholy Chalice or Crucible cutting back on their actual damage/dps. oouh and lets add the fact that almost every patch there has been a nerf to an AP item whereas there has been buff's to ad items. Zed and yas are at the fucking point where they can counter their counters at any ELO. Zed melts Talon, Lissandra, Malz, and any other champ that may be his counter. same goes with Yas.... Infinite dashes so you can never click on him, His shield comes back up every what? 3-5 seconds? 20 second ult cd? like wtf? if I am playing Veigar and I throw my ult but target dies before it even hits the target, I have to wait like 2-3 minutes with CDR, even at times where the ability was not even triggered all the way, just mid casting BAM full penalty of CD timer. Veigar is not the only one with this problem. But yes lets just say AP mages are not struggling, and that AD mids have consistently been somewhat situational. its so rare to see any APC's anymore. sigh.
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If you think AP mages are rare to see, you don't have a good statistical assessment of what's actually happening in ranked games. The only AD mids (according to champion.gg) in the top 20 playrate mid laners are Zed (13.32%), Yasuo (11.66%), and Corki (5.43%). That's about 30% of champions being AD.
To be fair (even if those above failed to communicate the point), the issue isn't with AP mids disappearing: its with AP mids feeling weaker than prior seasons. There aren't a large number of reasonably viable AD mids when compared to AP mids, so I don't think most people would be surprised with the stats you listed above. And AP mids are often on the winning team. However, AP mids don't feel like they contribute as much to the game (although they certainly aren't useless). This could probably largely be isolated to itemization problems.
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Could also just be a perception problem. Many people are used to, and thus **expect** AP mids to just be objectively better than AD mids, and the fact that AD mids can compete bothers them. Yes, AP mids are weaker than previous seasons compared to AD mids. But for several seasons, AD mids were pretty troll picks. By that metric, sure, they've lost power.
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Do your Statistical assessment show: 30% is the playrate of AD mid. (Zed, Yasuo, Corki, Talon, that's about 4-5 champions.) 70% is the playrate of AP mid? ( 30+ AP champions.) Moreover, there is around 60% ban rate for Zed (according to champion.gg on 6/4/2016). The playrate of Zed should be much higher, without ban. Personally opinions: Manaless AD champions, Zed and Yasuo, need to be balanced due to the new AD items.
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AD mids are rarer, so of course those picks are split up. If you want to learn an AD mid, you only have a few options, while if you want to play an AP mid, you have so many options. To me, all this says is that **Zed** is too strong, not the class.
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These people don't know how to respond to you gustaf, I'm surprised your being so nice! Thanks. But to take another point, using your own statistics, 2 of those champs are meant for mid, and are being played over 20% of the time alone. How many mid ap champs are there? Those 2 ad champs have a higher rate of play than a mix of how many other ap champs? Add corki for 30%? 3 ad champs makeup almost 30% of mid? It's because they are too strong. I've heard many opinions stating riot messed up when making zed, and _**especially**_ yas.
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I'd argue that people choose champions by role, so when there are few champions filling that role, those champions will seem overplayed
Nombae (NA)
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I'm not trying to argue with you here, but you can't just look at "play rates" that's really misleading. We have to consider ban rates, as that lowers the amount a champion is potentially played (and I realize the emphasis on potential). Zed has a 59% ban rate according to the website you linked. Yasuo has 6.5% with Corki sitting at 3.4%. At the max end of the spectrum, we'd see Zed close to 29% of the time without banning. One champion potentially played 1/3rd of all games in the mid lane. With Yasuo already in 1/8 without including his extremely marginal ban rate, that's a lot just between two champions that are good at farming and have high kill potential. I'm not sure how you arrived at "about 30% of the champions being AD" when there is also Talon (and to a much, much, much lesser degree, Kha'Zix), we also see Ezreal played mid, rarely Riven. There's plenty of AD mid options than just the three you mentioned. Play rate in conjunction with ban rate as well as per league would be a lot more accurate depiction of the amount a champion is played. I see a lot more Zed and Yasuo being played when there are specific champions people know they do well against. I see less of this kind of behaviour when I watch some of my lower ranked friend's play. Different play rates among different leagues as well. I'm sure you're aware of all of these points I'm bringing up, but it isn't fair to make light of someone's response while making the same erroneous point literally a sentence after it :P I'm mainly playing devil's advocate here because you claimed good statistical assessment, but neither my response nor yours are really good for statistical analysis at all :P
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His sentence was "It's so rare to see APCs anymore". That is categorically false, regardless of ban rates.
Kudrov (NA)
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more lies why ?
You still haven't pointed out how/why you think he is lying. Seriously, you are coming off as a child thrashing in a corner, screaming "lies!" over and over. Give reasons for your accusation, or shut up. _**Please.**_
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Especially since it's really easy to verify what I'm saying (although the pick rates will obviously change on the new patch)
Kudrov (NA)
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so much lies, i am starting wondering either if you're paid for working on solutioning changes in the game or simply lying on board.
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I know somebody has a point when they tell me I'm lying without actually explaining how what I said was false :P
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Here to prove my instances - I'm asking for detailed answers. not JUST BECAUSE. 1. Yes, you did. In patch chat. it wasn't asked it was implied. As Zirene the caster, pointed out that ALL of top laners are taking teleport and you wanted to see diversity. RESULTING in you increasing teleports cooldowns, so that less players would take it. Then you added rift herald. 2. So nerfs to top lane tank? Mate please, Poppy was head of the ban/pick since her rework has come out. I don't think that the community really cares if you nerf Sion when he's not even played XD 3. You nerfed Zed because Draktharr was OP on him but not other assassins? considering they can close the gap better? 4.That makes sense. But as proved in every Hextech crafting post. There's a flamer and soon to be a quitter. 5. League of Legends IS GROWING. but your numbers have gone down since last season. No matter what angle you look at it from. 6. Read 4. 7. Every game there is a point and click champion. Rengar's Q, Talons Q, Zed's passive, Akali (akali can run duskblade well) Q Auto proc, khazix Passive Auto. EVERY ASSASSIN, THERE IS THE EASIEST POINT AND CLICK, BUT OF ALL OF THOSE, YOU CHOSE TO NERF ZED INTO THE DIRT, why not just remove the item if there's so many problems like Feral Flare, DFG. Instead you decided to make one of the hardest champions in the game trash because trash players can play him. 8. The top lane meta isn't versatile at all. considering the only AD nuker OVER POWERED AS HELL. is quinn. Nobody is playing riven, fiora, the best top lane dancers in the game. But of all you decided to choose Irelia for a buff? the champion that leads like 10% of all Reddit posts on STILL PLS NERF. 9. You didn't even answer all my questions, GRAND example: WHERES THE META GOING? 10. Boots of swiftness/Lucidity... still 100% buy rate. You know, that Nautilus with 430 Move spd at 20 minutes. 11. Bruiser items. I mean cmon seriously? Where is BOTRK when you guys continually buff HP/tank items. **_TRULY - I thank you for taking the time to actually tackle these questions. However you just skimmed over them and then just gave up. I've been a 3 year player, and it's truly just disappointing to see that you guys would dodge such serious questions but answer the: "why didn't you buff Urgot" questions. These seriously need to be addressed. I now see why every pro-player bashes the direction. All we want is answers. not that I myself am a pro, but i take the game pretty damn serious. You guys aren't treating the game how you used to: SHAKY. You should always be careful before implementing patches. instead you guys just eagerly get them out of the way and over-power champions to the furthest extent, and keep them there._**
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1) Trying to equalize the incentives for non-TP spells is not the same as asking players not to take TP. 2) Nautilus, Malphite, Rammus, Trundle, Shyvana, Udyr (yeah, it's complicated), Yi? Top tank and Devourer nerfs almost every patch. 3) We didn't nerf the other assassins because - with exception of Talon - they were all struggling prior to duskblade. 4) Hopefully they learn from this experience and aren't toxic in the future so they don't get barred from future events/rewards 5) We'll have to agree to disagree because I'm a playtester, not a marketer. 7) Because none of those champions is doing particularly well. Maybe Talon is doing **alright** 8) There are 15 champions with a 5-10% play rate. That feels pretty versatile to me. 9) The meta, like evolution, doesn't have a particular direction. It may get guided here and there, but it fluctuates and moves around as people discover new things. 10) There you're actually somewhat on target. Those two boots account for almost 50% more purchases than all other boots combined. That's something we're keeping an eye on, although somewhat cautiously, given the historical relative prevalence of Mercury Treads and Ninja Tabi in pro play. 11) Pretty sure the last two changes to health items have been nerfs: Titanic Hydra and Dead Man's Plate both. Before that Sunfire Cape got a buff, I suppose, and before that I think the last set of defensive item changes were nerfs to all armor items during the Defensive Item Refactor...
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All reasonably if somewhat exaggerated points. However if they aren't playing anymore because they don't get rewards (Also false statement.) than i at least don't want them playing to begin with . How the Hex-tech crafting system works is essentially this: You earn a S rank or above (S-) you have a chance to get a chest or a key. There is a chance on winning ( I don't know if you get them even when you lose if I'm being completely honest) to get a key fragment which you can forge 3 into a key. The key word being "Chance". If there being salty because the chances aren't all that high than they need to understand that if Riot just gave them out left, right and center than what would be the use of it? That aside, Tanks aren't getting more OP, Just take Lord Dominic's and have some degree of skill with your champ and even the tankiest (?) champs fall. What i think you are referring to are "Juggernauts" IE Skarner, Darius, Garen and i think Illaoi as well and a few more. They are meant to be some what over powered. Its just a fact of the game. Being able to take and dish stupid amounts of damage is what they do. I have to agree with you on the Mysteries tho..Its kinda fucked when a support can top lain and out preform Assassins like Zed early game... Other than that i really don't see a lot of your problems. I'm sorry you aren't having as much fun as you used to but just wait, Riot will answer your wishes soon enough. Flaming wont help matters
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People like to blame any discomfort they have on something distant while appealing to a supposedly perfect past. The fact is the game changes every season and that's a good thing; we don't want LoL to be exactly the same one season as the last. Otherwise why would we even have designers? :D
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Question for the Playtesting Team and a RE: Quality Control 1) Is balanced aimed toward high elo play? 2) What determines when a champion is too strong? 3) How do Riot determine how to put these problems into balance?
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1) Not entirely. High Elo play is a consideration, as is low Elo play, as is mid Elo play. The hope is for all levels of play to feel like they have options, meaningful counterplay, and decisions to make, even if balance at all levels is unattainable. 2) A number of different metrics. The obvious one is win rate, but it gets much more complicated. First game win rate vs experienced win rate is important. Play rate and ban rate matter. Even how a champion does depending on the length of the game matters. 3) That question is above my paygrade to answer. There are often larger balance goals through which the smaller goals are filtered.
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Ok, i have a few questions/issues with this patch: 1. Is {{champion:7}} going to be balanced? Every time there is a Leblanc in the enemy team, my team later would get destroyed by Leblanc because of her ridiculously crazy amount of burst damage, and she can basically potentially one or two shot a lot of champions and a lot of champions struggle against her, even if its 2 or even 3 champions against Leblanc alone. I feel like Leblanc could just destroy any almost any champion and turn into a overkill / powerhouse. 2. About Kindred in early game, Kindred doesn't have the fastest and best clearing in jungle and when she is getting her first few monsters in early game, she heavily needs healing from wolf's frenzy because a few small mistakes can just end up having kindred dead. But nerfing the healing from wolf's frenzy would make kindred's clearing in jg around very early game way more difficult. I know a lot of inexperienced kindred players who don't know how to effectively take the healing from wolf's frenzy to their advantage, and they would die more from trying to clear in early game with the healing from wolf's frenzy getting nerfed. 3. About Lambs respite being nerfed by only being self-cast, i think it is VERY wrong in a lot of levels. First off, kindred is VERY squishy! and Second, in a lot of scenarios in team fights, she can't just go aggressive in a team fight because it only takes a few crowd control effects ( stun, slows, etc ) to destroy kindred since she has very low defense. But to have her Ult only to be self-cast?? She can't really for example go and save her ally from getting killed by a fed champion by using her Ult because her Ult is self-cast and therefore, a very short ranged Ult. Since it is self-cast, she would have to go closer to her ally to use her ult and save the ally. But since she is putting her self very exposed and in the open, she can just get killed easily from burst and CC abilities. Heck, her whole kit revolves around her keeping her distance and not getting too close, but it you make it that her Ult is only Self-cast, she would have to go deeper into a team fight in order to use her ult to help her allies. But again, that would result of her risking herself to be exposed, open to be destroyed. I feel like the nerf on Lamb's respite would heavily affect her performance in team fights and in general. If you are going to do something like that, can you at least increase her defense stat in the game in some way?? 4. About the Q nerf, almost her whole kit basically revolves around her Q, because her Q is basically her main damage. Nerfing her Q would absolutely devastate kindred in every way possible! ( Team fights, clearing in jg, 1v1, etc. ) And Jg champions that have CC can out-do her in a 1v1 in late game. If you nerf her early game in such a big way, you would indirectly nerf her late game as well! How well her late game depends on how good you were in early game. In general, it would potentially make kindred not very viable / underwhelming.
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I'm going to hit these in reverse. 4) We on Playtest agree, which is why we argued (successfully) to not have the Q changes ship to live. 3) It's not actually a nerf. This is a buff which makes using that ultimate less micro intensive. If you could previously have cast your ult on an ally, you will still be able to cast it on yourself and have it reach that ally thanks to the range. There is only one situation where this isn't true: casting your ult on one ally to protect an even farther away ally. 2) Kindred has an extremely fast early clear. I agree that her sustain could use some help. In my optimal world, we'd tone back how much movement she needs to stack the heal, but then give it a lockout so that it couldn't happen back-to-back so quickly. That way inexperienced players wouldn't suffer as much, and the ability could have higher values. 1) As far as I know, LeBlanc is struggling pretty hard right now.
LankPants (OCE)
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> As far as I know, LeBlanc is struggling pretty hard right now. This strikes me as BS considering she's a top competitive pick right now. She seems more on the side of too strong than too weak and buffing her at all would make her a must pick or ban competitively.
Just because she is picked in competitive play does not mean she is anywhere near as strong on the ladder.
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LeBlanc is doing great in competitive, much like Lee Sin and Rek'Sai typically are dominant in competitive. But in ranked, they all have extremely low win rates.
LankPants (OCE)
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Do you really think it's a good idea to buff a champ who's already damn near a pick or ban in competitive play? If you do she'll just end up spiking up to a must ban in competitive play which will trickle down to ranked play and just end up with her getting nerfed back down anyway after ruining the game for a few months. Besides LB is not a champion who's power you can approximate by her winrate. She's always had quite a low win rate, at times she's been a pretty broken champ with sub 46% win rates. Same goes for Lee Sin. Rek'sai is a different beast altogether, she's not a good competitive pick anymore either.
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I definitely don't think she should be buffed. Some champions have low overall win rates because - in the hands of experienced players (and especially in high Elo games) - they do pretty well. This is exacerbated in pro level play. Personally, I like having these types of champions exist. They're hard to learn and you probably won't use them to their full potential, but it gives you something to aspire to. LeBlanc is very strong in pro play, relatively weak on the ladder, and as such probably in a good spot (although if she did get a nerf, I'd hope we'd try to make it something that hit experienced players harder).
gubigubi (NA)
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The problem with leblanc is she isn't weak. She is really strong. She can crush her lane but she has nothing in her kit to actually win the game by herself. She can only keep picking people off and hoping her team does something with a 4v5 advantage. It works a lot better in pro play where if you pick someone off your team can coordinate what to do next.
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strength is only defined by abilities to win games. But you are correct; in pro play she has much more ability to secure victories because A) your team is much more likely to help you make picks and B) your team is much more likely to know how to follow up.
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Ok. In this patch, I expected to see some actual lux nerfs, not weird things to her shield which didn't change much. Lux is a mid-lane god. Here are a few reasons why: Lux has ludicrous long range poke damage/slow which is almost impossible to dodge Lux has a doublesnare which isnt very difficult to land Lux's ult has an incredibly low cd mid-late game and deals way too much damage for the cd I haven't seen literally anyone win lane against lux. Ever. Not only does she win lane, but lux starts dealing so much damage still in the mid-late game that it's stupid. This has gone so far as to be consistently banning her almost every single game, like udyr. Lux is a good champion, but she is way way way too strong right now. Somehow this needs to be changed, be it nerfs to the aoe sow, ult cd, or even the snare. Nerfs to the shield don't change much, because let's be honest. Lux mid is so much more effective than lux support.
I believe the lux shield changes dropped her nearly 5%. I would definitely call that an actual nerf.
Could we get a stream of playtesting? I would love to see some of the zany, or horrifyingly punishing things that happen to my favorite, and hated rift going champions. <3 or a video released W/ posts like these, I'd love too see those "are you maxing your Q?" moments
This would be tough because most of our playtests will contain content that will not be released for months or sometimes even as long as a year. I have been going over some ideas for different types of videos or maybe just some streams with the playtest. Nothing set in stone as of yet.
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We've thought about it...There's a lot of care we'd have to do to take care that we represented Riot and ourselves well, and avoided spilling company secrets (probably can't stream from work without a lot of precautions). And we couldn't stream any playtests because they involve content that people may not know about yet... But we are trying to figure out how to do it!
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If Zed getting nerf does {{champion:91}} gonna get nerf to ? Why are you guys nerfing {{item:3156}} ? :)
Talon was already nerfed a couple of patches ago. Maw was simply too strong and efficient so we are bringing it in line.
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I posted earlier about why not nerf zed's q. It really seems that maybe zed does not have a very definite weakness to exploit on. Zed has many strength from waveclear, poke, mobility, manaless/energy, roamer, insane outplay potential, great escape, and high damage burst. The only real weakness with zed is his late game falls off, but it's easy to play around that with his great early to mid game. The way I see it, there's two choices. Take away some of zed's strength or create a new weakness to exploit on. I prefer the weakness exploit option.
How does nerfing his Q give him a new weakness to exploit in any way? I would say these new W cd nerfs add way more of a weakness to hit than a Q nerf.
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Have you guys playtested any of the mages besides Cass yet?
We have been working closely on the mage updates. We have gotten multiple games on all of them.
Bídoof (NA)
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Have you guys put any games on fizz? Im a fizz main and i was wondering where you feel he is. He feels prettt balanced in damage for his tradeoffs but i would shift some of his W damage to his Q if there were any nerfs planned to stylistically fit him better. Just curious, thanks ^^
I've played a decent amount of Fizz. Usually the team doesn't let me play him too much because he can run over playtests but we do get him in from time to time. I do not believe Fizz is currently being worked on.
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Any thoughts on Strength of The Ages (SoTA)? It's getting to the point that every jungler takes this keystone mastery and even some toplaners who don't care for Grasp and supports since Bond of Stone kind of sucks. Doesn't it seem a bit out of line that even damage based junglers are defaulting to this? And any thoughts possibly on the defensive tree as a whole? A lot of players are just going 12 or all 18 points in Defense because of how safe and reliable it is compared to the other trees.
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On the one hand, there has rarely been a meta where tank runes and masteries haven't tended to be pretty strong on junglers. On the other hand, yeah, it's probably a bit strong.
Mârty (NA)
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Hi! Last patch I got a brushed off/irrelevant/somewhat rude answer, still tried to turn it into a discussion but got nowhere. I'm interested in starting a discussion about Janna and the current state of her passive with respect to Riot's recent mentioning of the game having too much movement speed. Have you guys considered giving Janna a completely new passive? I feel her current passive skews her win rate and power level, consider how hidden that power is as well as it not being very 'measurable' by the player. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on how we can give Janna a more interactive passive that offers opponents opportunities to play around it. I do have a few ideas, but I'm more interested in hearing the playtest team's thoughts first.
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It's a tough line to toe. On the one hand, you're definitely right about her invisible power. On the other hand, there is a core contingent of players that really enjoys the feeling of making the *smart* choice through invisible power. Given that Janna is one of only a few champions filling that niche, it seems harsh to take that away.
Mârty (NA)
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Would you consider implementing a passive that both allows Janna players to feel smart about its use that also offers her opponents room to maneuver around it? The most frustrating thing right now about Janna is her always-available peel. Even if she is out of mana, or has no major cooldowns available, or even if she disconnected from the game, she's still offering her allies pretty good peel just by existing. I'm sure there was a core contingent of players that felt smart about chugging health potions and still getting the maximum heal output from Soraka's W, but it was also not healthy for the game. My main request is, if Janna gets looked as a balancing issue in the future, please consider her passive first and foremost. I know there exists a passive that is more exciting for the player, more interesting for Janna's opponents, and more healthy for the game (over-abundance of free movement speed). Thank you for taking the time to respond!
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Hmmm...You're not wrong. I do think that Janna is probably the #1 most toxic playstyle in the game, not Zed, not Vayne, not Yasuo, Janna. And largely for the reasons you present. She has very limited windows of counterplay, and most of them run counter to the normal response you'd have. Shield? Ok, I'll just switch targets. Oh, it gives an AD buff that only goes away when I destroy it... Hmmmm... Squishy champion I need to get onto to kill? AoE knockback... Hmmmmm... Conditional skillshot based knockup? Ranged slow to set it up. I don't think it boils down to her passive. The champion just feels like she offers no gameplay to her opponents at any point.
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I'd rather have a million Janna's than one Vayne Zed or Yasuo. Jana's kit may offer limited counter-play but her kit is also not extremely overpowered or excels at multiple aspects. With Zed you have wave clear, no mana constraints, excellent cs capability, mobility, a free escape, plus easy AD itemization that seems to be the theme for season 6. Its similar to why people have gripes about lee sin. Zed can do too much too well and has very little to pay for it. Riot's continuous claims of him being the stereotype of a "well balanced" assassin seems to me like a lot of whitewash with very little excuses why they claim that. IMO Jana is good at ...peeling and defense. End of story. She's not toxic in the slightest and I believe most players would agree with me.
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I'm definitely not saying I'm a fan of Zed's design. But Janna is insidious and goes overlooked because her impact is so subtle. To me, Janna is like Varys from A Song of Ice and Fire. She's sneaky as fuck, has a huge impact, and nobody even realizes it.
Nefas (NA)
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I thought you had said that Zed was the best designed assassin kit?
Nope that was me. Gustaf and I have had quite a few discussions around this topic actually. We're not always in agreement with each other, as it should be.
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>She's sneaky as fuck, has a huge impact, and nobody even realizes it. Isn't that a good thing? If a champion is strong but people's annoyance is way less than their raw strength would predict, then isn't that indicative of good design? I mean, some people get REALLY annoyed at Janna nowadays so maybe that doesn't apply, but if people really are overlooking Janna, that kind of seems like an ideal.
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In my opinion, people losing for reasons that are perceptible is better from a learning perspective. If you lose to Janna, you might not even know why, which makes it harder to learn from the experience.
Mârty (NA)
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If we were to go about addressing her kit's problems, I definitely would start with the passive. Her shield is probably the only "free" spell she gets, and generally the easiest thing to execute. Without some solid AP stats though, it's fairly weak and breaks easily. Her ultimate does have significant impact, and works really well as a cock block, but it is tied to a high cooldown and actually requires a decent amount of skill to execute properly (You can play around it by approaching her from two angles). I wouldn't consider it a "press R for guaranteed positive results" spell like Soraka/Nami/Braum ultimates which is a good thing. Her Q has been, imo, tuned in a really good way over the years. Significantly nerfing the instant tornado (range down, damage down, knock up duration down) while encouraging a charged tornado playstyle (decreased cooldown, more range, more knock up, more damage) has really pushed it into a fun spell. I'd say setting up an easy Q with W is something I don't do very often, because setting up a charged Q with a W isn't worth the investment. Even her slow, at the very minimum, has a cost associated to its use. Yeah it's a targeted slow, but it does slow Janna herself a considerable amount for using it. Over the years she's seen some good changes to her kit, but her passive has always been a core problem because it's just so damn easy to access. Playing against her, I really do think shifting her passive to something else (Or even doing something drastic like making Zephyr her passive poppy-style and giving her an entirely new W) should definitely be the first step taken to boost her playstyle's interaction. TL;DR Before anything else, definitely give her a new passive. I think that's the main offender right now, considering how it really multiplies the disengage on the rest of her kit (She slowed you/knocked you back/knocked you up/cock blocked your last spell, and now you can't even catch up because of her passive).
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Oh yeah, I don't mean to minimize how impactful that passive is...
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Are you guys gonna be around next patch cause i have a ton of questions i want to ask but i think ive missed the Q and A
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Go ahead! We're around every patch, but I also tend to check comments a day or two after the post goes live.
gubigubi (NA)
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How do you guys feel about undying grasp right now? Has {{item:3025}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3065}} +undying been a subject of any playtests? edit: Btw sorry if this has been asked before I wrote it before starting to look through the comments :0!
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I actually have consistently thought Grasp of the Undying to be a huge problem. Same goes Frozen Fist. I was building Frozen Fist **last** season so I thought it was just my bias showing, but I'm definitely **personally** making arguments that those two are too strong. Sunfire Cape is tricky. It has to compete with Cinderhulk, which is a pretty gold efficient item - and has to be, thanks to being a jungle item - so it's been granted power that is pretty hidden (bonus damage to minions).
Somidore (NA)
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3 things. 1. Shoutout to Gustaf, ThEntropist, and Afic. We as a community really appreciate you taking time to answer all our questions. You guys are rock stars. 2. I apologize on behalf of the community for the ocean salt that is thrown at you every time you release a patch, and for how little praise you ever get from us ever. We ask for cake and ice cream - you give us ice cream while the cake is baking - all we care about is the fact that don't have cake yet. No appreciation for what's been given to us already. And that's a pattern I've seen for the 4 or 5 years I've been playing League now. 3. I wrote this in response to someone else, but I want the rest of the community to see it. I don't know everything and I'm definitely still (and always will be) learning, so I invite anyone to comment who disagrees so I can continue to learn. But comment with that in mind - to teach me, not to put me down. Also, comment if you agree. That would be good too. :] "Last season, the community was complaining because damage dealers were successful pretty much everywhere (including Top and Jungle), while tanks were left feeling like they didn't really contribute anything. This season people are complaining because Riot fixed the problem - tanks are not only viable, but a necessity to a successful team composition. Gustaf is absolutely right - if damage-dealing marksmen shove tanks and bruisers out of the ADC position, why shouldn't tanks and bruisers shove damage-dealing marksmen out of the Top position? Assassins and damage dealers can still go top situationally. That situation is that you have tanks elsewhere (jungle and support), and you want to win your lane early. If you're not able to win your lane early like you're supposed to with a damage dealer, then you're gonna lose your lane. In which case, you roam and pressure the map with your team elsewhere. Riot's doing a fine job of balancing the game. People just don't understand what to do and when to do it in the current meta because it's NEW. That doesn't mean it's bad. Team comps the way they should be (and currently are): ADC: Marksmen Support: Tank / Utility Mid: Mage / Assassin Top: Tank / Bruiser / Split Pusher Jungle: Tank / Bruiser / Damage. There's a lot more champion diversity in all the roles than there was last season (which is what we asked for). But that doesn't mean that a Vayne Top shouldn't struggle against a Malphite Top. Just like if someone were to pick Malphite ADC, he'd probably struggle against a Vayne ADC."
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We're working hard on that cake, too.
NA Salt (NA)
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In balancing league, it seems like only the meta champions or second tier champions are looked at and changed. Are Other champions with extreme low play rates considered for changes? {{champion:50}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:83}} I have no idea how to play or play against these champs because I never see them. Don't they deserve some tlc?
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I'm a not a playtester or game balancer but i am a statistician. The issue with balancing low play rate champions is that the sample size you use to determine issues is so small that you can't be sure what is going on. I like the example that scarizard gave on stream one week they were looking at upper level play data and galios winrate went up 70% from a Tuesday to a Wednesday it turns out that there is one high elo galio main and he didn't play any games on tuesday.
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That is certainly part of it. Often low play rate champions have unhealthy play patterns that we don't know what to do with, and buffs would make them problems (anybody remember proxy Singed?)
Pr0nogo (NA)
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Any chance the Riot playtesting team is hiring? Diamond and above?
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Yup! We are almost always hiring but in the past few weeks we have ramped efforts up www.riotgames.com/careers/41508
Pr0nogo (NA)
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Any chance I can contact you or another QA guy about tips for the resume and cover letter? If not, I'll find my own way. Thanks either way :)
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Feel free to add me in game
Could you tell me how the {{champion:78}} 's Q dmg is lower? At lvl 1 most champions have over 600 hp, meaning that that extra + 1% of the target’s maximum health gives her Q + 6 dmg (she got nurfed for -5 dmg). When she maxes her Q, most champions will have over 2000 HP, that's at least + 20 dmg to her Q (she got nurfed for - 25 dmg) and longer the game goes, more dmg her Q'll be dealing. In this patch if she hits champion with 2500 HP, dmg will be the same as in the last patch, but if she hits tank with 4000 HP, she deals 20 more dmg as she did last patch...
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Poppy should be rewarded for making a play that gets the second hit of her Q off. It was just a bit too reliable with how easy E was. So if you're only getting one Q hit, it's weaker, but if you are using proper placement to get a second Q off, you will get more damage against tanks, yes. The world where Poppy peels against divers (predominantly tanky) is way healthier than the world in which she dive-destroys carries.
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