Midseason Durability - Goals and Direction

submitted in Dev Corner
Hi everyone, In the near future, some changes to durability in League are going to hit the PBE in anticipation of the upcoming midseason patch. Before that happens, I wanted to give some brief info on what kinds of things you can expect to see, as well as why we wanted to work on these things. Please note that this post in particular will be more about goals and direction than specific changes, so take numbers with a grain of salt, and know that things are still subject to change pending feedback/tuning. With that brief intro out of the way, let’s get right into it. **MR/lvl for all** Since this is pretty straightforward, we’ll get it out of the way first. Every champion that has no MR/lvl is planned to gain a small amount. This change will probably go mostly unfelt, but should help to curb some especially crazy burst damage cases on squishy champions, and though we have no current plans, it puts us in a better position to do things like use MR/lvl as a tuning level in the future, similar to how we do for Armor/lvl already. **Tank Item Stat Rebalance** Many of the game’s end-tier tank items have approximately half of their gold value in Health and half of it in Armor or MR. With the midseason coming, we’re looking to change some of those proportions slightly so that the items have more of their gold budget in the Armor or MR stat on them. The goal of this change is reduce how spiky first and second item purchases on tanks tend to be, while simultaneously increasing their ability to grow their builds satisfyingly throughout the game. For an example, Sunfire Cape currently gives a good amount of Health and a good amount of Armor, and with these changes, we’re aiming for it to have slightly less Health and slightly more Armor. By doing these changes, a tank rushing an Armor item like Sunfire Cape will be less effective defensively against the opposing team’s magic damage dealers until they manage to round out their defenses through other items. So in this case, Sunfire Cape has 75 less Health but 10 more Armor. **Tank Item Unique Effect Sharpening** While working on the tank item side of durability, we wanted to increase the excitement of items by making them a bit more about their unique effects. Throughout the items changes, you’ll see small changes to items’ uniques that aim to make them more effective at their intended purpose (and sometimes less effective at more general purposes). For instance, we have some changes that make Dead Man’s Plate deal no bonus damage except at max stacks, and also lose some stacks when basic attacking without max stacks. However, it also stacks up more quickly and its slow no longer decays, both of which help the item better perform its main purposes. **New Defensive Items** In addition to changing some existing items’ effects in the shop, we’re also looking to add a couple new ones. These primarily aim to add a few options that tanks can opt into to protect themselves against common threats they need to deal with. As an example, we’ll be putting a new Armor/MR item on the PBE that is statistically very inefficient, but doubles its Armor/MR when around enemy champions. This positions it as a great choice when you know you need to get in the middle of the enemy team regularly, but not so attractive if splitpushing is a core part of your strategy. **Repurposed Items** Some items in the game have stats and unique effects that conflict with each other. To this end, you’ll be seeing some changes aimed at reimagining existing items to either have new stat lines and build paths, or that simply have their effects swapped with other existing items that we felt would be more fitting. To speak to one of them, Guardian Angel can often not feel like a particularly helpful item. Its stats are attractive to tanks, but its unique effect isn’t very fun for the game on tanks. Its unique effect would be a welcome addition to some damage dealers, but its build path usually feels far too inaccessible or inconvenient to get to. As such, there are some tentative changes on the way for Guardian Angel, as well as a few other items in similar positions. __________ **Closing** Again, things that end up on PBE will be subject to change and/or removal before shipping for midseason. One final thing to note is that, following these change, there will still be some items that aren’t in great shape and are going unchanged for at least the time being. However, our hope is that we’re setting up a good framework around which we can work on individual items in the future and find them good homes in the item shop. That about does it for the precursor to the midseason durability changes. I probably won’t go into too much detail on individual changes here, but if there are questions about goals and direction that were unclear or that you’d just like some more info on, I’ll try to answer some comments. Thanks, Repertoir
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new
If health is being reduced on several items, won't that hit champions that heavily rely on health scalings? Or are there some more items that their purpose is to supply the demand for health?
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Health scaling champions will be affected somewhat negatively as a result of this particular change, however with the introduction of some new items and the fact that a couple primary Health items are going unchanged (or even getting buffed), they seem to be in a pretty good spot.
RageQ2 (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=ShadowParker,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WgNuqAK8,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-04-06T05:23:08.199+0000) > > If health is being reduced on several items, won't that hit champions that heavily rely on health scalings? Or are there some more items that their purpose is to supply the demand for health? Now that you bring that up what about the tank junglers with {{item:1401}} . It'll be a fairly major and unwanted nerf to the current tank junglers making higher damage junglers way more relevant, which they already are... I just want my {{champion:72}} back :(
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Cinderhulk isn't currently planned to get any changes to its Health values or its passive bonus Health since junglers tend to operate on lower economy already.
new
Tank junglers are almost completely wiped out and by reducing health on tank items will nerf them even more. I dont think upping the scaling to 20% would be that crazy? It actually used to be 25%! And we would prolly still see Lee, Graves, Elise, Regnar, Khazix, even AP Eve etc. Another thing I am curious about, what are your stance on Vayne and Kog? It doesn't really matter what I build on tanks, I still die in about 2.5-4 seconds even with 4k hp, ~300+ armor, ~150+ mr and Thornmail feels like it does NOTHING at all.
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> I dont think upping the scaling to 20% would be that crazy? Probably wouldn't be all that crazy, and if we see a trend of Cinderhulk junglers take a dip at the midseason, that seems like a reasonable kind of change.
new
With the changes to combined HP/Resistance items, is there anything planned for HP tank items, as well?
new
What item(s) are you thinking? Like Warmogs? Or are there others that come to mind?
riste (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WgNuqAK8,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-04-06T07:23:32.118+0000) > > What item(s) are you thinking? Like Warmogs? Or are there others that come to mind? Warmogs is definitely an avenue of curiosity. It does have some differences from Visage, but Visage appears to overshadow it, especially now since BortK is in full force and Liandry's is as strong as ever. There are so many times playing Garen that I've wanted to build warmogs, but I feel like if I haven't build Visage first then I skip it.
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Warmogs currently has some small buffs planned for it (reduced Health threshold for the passive, stronger passive, reduced passive CD against minions/monsters, I believe) while maintaining its current stats, so it should be a decent outlet for people looking for a big Health item. Again, that's subject to change, but this is currently what's in testing.
Xyltin (EUW)
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As long as BotRK is such a strong earl, mid, late game item - even good against anyone that doesn't build HP - for every ADC and other AA based champ, pure HP items will never make any sense. You need the Armor and other sources of dmg reduction to protect your HP pretty early and so a warmogs would only make sense as one of your last 2 items but then the pure HP items are already mostly useless still and all the armor and/or HP gets countered by 2 items.
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Even without any change to BotRK itself, it takes some amount of hit from these changes due to resists going up a bit and Health pools going down a bit. That said, should probably have more info on this soon, but we are also looking at a slight cost increase to BotRK (power down) and a slight cost decrease to crit, likely IE (power up).
What is your goal on tank scaling? i find them fine mid-game but can get bullied and set behind easily in lane due to lack of defenses and come late game, last whisper (and its builds) and void staff (to a lesser extent) sometimes feel like they do too much. In addition to this, how has the goal of tank damage been worked on? i personally think most tanks are okay involving damage, but i figured everyone else is more curious. >Tank Item Stat Rebalance >Many of the game’s end-tier tank items have approximately half of their gold value in Health and half of it in Armor or MR. With the midseason coming, we’re looking to change some of those proportions slightly so that the items have more of their gold budget in the Armor or MR stat on them. The goal of this change is reduce how spiky first and second item purchases on tanks tend to be, while simultaneously increasing their ability to grow their builds satisfyingly throughout the game. >For an example, Sunfire Cape currently gives a good amount of Health and a good amount of Armor, and with these changes, we’re aiming for it to have slightly less Health and slightly more Armor. By doing these changes, a tank rushing an Armor item like Sunfire Cape will be less effective defensively against the opposing team’s magic damage dealers until they manage to round out their defenses through other items. So in this case, Sunfire Cape has 75 less Health but 10 more Armor. How does this interact with penetration items? With less health and more Armor/MR, it sounds like penetration items would be stronger but i personally dont know the effective health values by memory. Would items that are built more for the health be changed some, or maybe a new one? >New Defensive Items >In addition to changing some existing items’ effects in the shop, we’re also looking to add a couple new ones. These primarily aim to add a few options that tanks can opt into to protect themselves against common threats they need to deal with. As an example, we’ll be putting a new Armor/MR item on the PBE that is statistically very inefficient, but doubles its Armor/MR when around enemy champions. This positions it as a great choice when you know you need to get in the middle of the enemy team regularly, but not so attractive if splitpushing is a core part of your strategy. Ohmwrecker is currently the only HP/Armor/CD item that is suitable for a tanky champion. However, i believe it was mentioned it was gonna be left alone. Will tanks be getting a new Hp/Armor/CD item to reflect the Spirit visage for MR? Would be nice to not invest in an unneeded mana or damage item. I'm fine with running 10% scaling CD blues (at the cost of MR mainly) , but that still leaves me with 30% CD between runes, visage and warmog in a more balanced build unless i sacrifice ninja tabi, swifties or mercs for lucidity. which is usually odd unless im running exhaust TP naut top. >Repurposed Items >Some items in the game have stats and unique effects that conflict with each other. To this end, you’ll be seeing some changes aimed at reimagining existing items to either have new stat lines and build paths, or that simply have their effects swapped with other existing items that we felt would be more fitting. To speak to one of them, Guardian Angel can often not feel like a particularly helpful item. Its stats are attractive to tanks, but its unique effect isn’t very fun for the game on tanks. Its unique effect would be a welcome addition to some damage dealers, but its build path usually feels far too inaccessible or inconvenient to get to. As such, there are some tentative changes on the way for Guardian Angel, as well as a few other items in similar positions. While items like Merc Scimitar and Zhonyas work well, i find that having a damage item with the passive to be very unfun. And if it was a support item that lets your support "zilean ult" an ally, it would be neat, but would be seen in most games like redemption and locket usually do.
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> What is your goal on tank scaling? Early lane largely unchanged (except for possible changes to Doran's Shield). Mid game slightly weaker against mixed damage, slightly stronger against singular damage threats. Late game probably comes out a bit stronger overall due to the addition of some new options in the shop. That said, there are some small measures taken in the changes that reduce tank damage from items as part of a general push toward making tanks be a little tankier but deal a little bit less damage later in the game. These types of changes will be clearer in the first PBE build. > How does this interact with penetration items? The value of penetration items would increase slightly, and the value of %HP items like BotRK would decrease slightly most likely, but there are also some small changes planned to keep penetration in check that will hopefully hit PBE soon as well. > Will tanks be getting a new Hp/Armor/CD item to reflect the Spirit visage for MR? This specifically is not planned, but we have given consideration to tank builds so that they can effectively include CDR in them, and based on those considerations, there will be some simple (but notable) stat line changes, at least in the first PBE push.
new
About the Doran's shield changes: why does the HP regen scale with the champion's HP regen instead of just having 5HP/5 and multiplying that? This will affect all those champion with low base HP reg like Mordekaiser and Riven - especially in hard matchups.
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Doran's Shield is likely getting some change that make it more agnostic to the user's base stats.
new
It would be cool if there was an armor + ad item, perhaps similiar to Maw. I feel that the lack of such item is significant to old Aatrox and sustain tanks in general underperforming.
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This would indeed be cool.
Annoxis (EUW)
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The last time you designed an item with Armor and Attack Damage, it didn't go well (Madred's Razor).
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Madred's Razor's biggest issues were when it and its upgrades became good lane rush items. Hoping to avoid that in this case, but we'll see!
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>As an example, we’ll be putting a new Armor/MR item on the PBE that is statistically very inefficient, but doubles its Armor/MR when around enemy champions. This positions it as a great choice when you know you need to get in the middle of the enemy team regularly, but not so attractive if splitpushing is a core part of your strategy. Umm, if you are splitpushing an 1-2 people come to deal with you, aren't you by an enemy champ then?
new
Perhaps the armor/mr increase will vary with how many champions are around you?
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Perhaps it will...
riste (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WgNuqAK8,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-04-06T07:35:17.064+0000) > > Perhaps it will... Keep up the great work. I really hope you guys find suitable change for Doran's Shield because I'm climbing in D4 with Garen using **CORRUPTING POTION**. That's right, a champ with zero mana. I used to love Doran's shield but I feel like it's utility for toughing out lanes is so inferior to an item that can just give me 375 health in 36 seconds and refills, plus gives combat stats.
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There's some DShield stuff that should at least make its way to PBE for testing. Riot Axes has been working that particular change, but it at least looks good on paper?
Agatorion (EUW)
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Ok, so new items will give more MR/Armor which will make rushing early {{item:3135}} /{{item:3035}} twice as efficient. And late game ADC with {{item:3036}} melts tanks like nothing. And 1 thing bothers me even more that when i perform well on tanks i still do not feel any impact in the game because my ADC/APC feeds. If i would pick {{champion:8}} or any other carry i have a chance of winning vs enemy fed carries, while as tank i just can't do a thing because ADC fed melts me, fed Ziggs melts me. I do not ask what should i do when enemy ADC/APC is fed, i ask how will you make tanks more impactful so that even from behind they can carry.If i am not mistaken tanks purpose is to soak damage and provide CC so that your carry can deal damage and etc., what if your carry can't do anything?
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Mentioned this in a response above already, but we're giving a look to penetration items as well.
RageQ2 (NA)
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So will the the midseason basically be connected to/focused on the tank rework or no? Sorta like the assassin rework how we got new changes and all that.
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This portion of the midseason will be largely connected to the tank updates. However, this should feel different from other recent class updates in that it won't be only the targeted class of champions getting new items to play with.
Who else will?
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Kinda everyone? At least insofar as having a few new options to consider goes.
riste (NA)
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Another affected class by this mid-season update will undoubtedly be juggernauts. Has Riot taken the time to anticipate how these changes will affect the likes of Garen/Darius/Nasus/Illaoi?
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I've been trying to keep Juggernauts in mind when considering these changes. Losing some Health off a few situational purchases may hit them a small amount, but I think they end up coming out at least even, possibly slightly ahead of their current state if some of the changes to DMP and Warmog's continue to trend positive.
NovaDisk (NA)
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These changes are really going to hurt champs that rely on health, such as Garen and Sejuani, who are really hurting already. For example, Garen gets stacking Armor/MR, but has low base health for his class to make up for it. This was to incentivize Health stacking on Garen. But if the items he buys don't have any HP to back up his resists, he will end up quite sqishy. These changes will reinforce what I feel to be a very unhealthy "Shield meta", where if your champ has shields in their kit, they can be an effective tank, but if they're a tanky champ with no shields they just get blown up like the rest.
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There are several pure Health items that are seeing no change, or even small buffs, so there should be similar options in the shop for these characters.
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What's happening to Thornmail? No one here has asked about it. Reworked? Rebalanced? Removed? I ask because it's a trap item right now that doesn't even work well in its niche cases of {{champion:33}} {{champion:54}} . The moment your enemies get some MR or lifesteal, the item becomes worthless.
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> What's happening to Thornmail? Thornmail needs some attention in the future, but we didn't get a singular good direction on it, so it will mostly remain as niche (unappealing?) as it is now for the time being. Moving forward, however, we hope that with the defensive item side of the shop being in a generally good spot, we can tackle a project like Thornmail in a single patch cycle.
Sasogwa (EUW)
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@ Repertoir what is your feeling towards {{item:3035}} {{item:3071}} ? It feels to me like these counters to armor are way too specialized on heavy anti-armor, rendering borderline bad armor-stacking against full ad comp, unlike magic resist where voidstaff feels fair (good counter, but stacking mr doesn't feel bad either). Are you more comfortable with the current LW than with the old 35% total arpen LW ? (more generalistic, less ANTITANK at all costs) ESPECIALLY if you plan to put more budget in armor than health in armor+health items
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> Are you more comfortable with the current LW than with the old 35% total arpen LW ? Personally, I suspect there are too many tools that provide Armor Pen/Reduction available at the moment. We're considering small change to %pen specifically to address this, though no guarantee that it ships necessarily.
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Hi. Hope I am not too late for QA. I would like to know how the new items and current items change will affect Tank Supports Champ such as {{champion:201}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:412}}. Will it be more like a buff or nerf?
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I imagine it will be a slight buff to these champions, since picking up any of the changed items will have more resists than before, which will naturally synergize with the Health-heavy Sightstone/FotM/Eye type items.
GA Aviril (EUW)
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Fighters tend to die way too quickly after entering a teamfight. They're CC'd and focused down and in many cases are killed before they can even do a single spell rotation. As a result they're almost always forced into a splitpush situation and gain advantages through their 1v1 strength. On the flipside tanks are great in teamfights but get absolutely dicked in 1v1s by fighters. This creates a situation where, in a fighter vs tank matchup, if the fighter gets slightly ahead they can force a spitpush game and the tank is worthless or the tank gets ahead force a teamfight game where the fighter is worthless. Are there going to be any changes to increase the overall durability of fighters and increase the dueling potential of tanks?
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We're probably unlikely to increase the dueling potential of tanks, because the game state turns pretty questionable when we turn up their damage in the late game especially (very hard to do without also just making them do more ambient teamfight damage as well). Fighters should have at least one new option in the shop that gives them some more teamfight potential, though it will_generally_ be better on pure tanks, and probably more situational for teamfighting fighters.
new
Will we have Armor Item for AD Champions? AP Champion have both Armor and MR items
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Hopefully. Still in testing, but should at least make it to PBE.
Ralanr (NA)
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Doubling resistances when around allies? I can't wait to build it on Poppy.
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Specifically _that item's_ resists
Jackom1 (EUW)
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Any work planned on Righteous Glory? It's supposed to be a great items for vanguards, but it's rarely used
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Isn't planned for any direct changes, but its high Health will be somewhat more attractive since it isn't getting changed.
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