Some follow up marksmen thoughts

Meddler (NA)
submitted in Dev Corner
Hi folks, Figured it'd be good to touch base on our thoughts on Marksmen again after talking about them at the start of the year. **Things that have changed since then:** * Jungler influence is down due to nerfs to XP and other systems. We increased jungler influence unintentionally in the pre-season and have been reducing it to around previous levels since. * Courage of the Colossus is significantly weaker, reining back champions that utilized it especially well in particular. Combination of that and jungle stuff above's restored agency to a range of positions/champs, marksmen included. * Lethality's been buffed since it wasn't serving the needs of a range of physical damage dealers from multiple classes. That's given caster and early game marksmen itemization to better serve their needs and we're seeing a lot of success from them (and other lethality users) now as a result (too much so in some cases). * We've made some changes to individual marksmen where appropriate (Draven, Kalista, Lucian, Trist etc). **Current thoughts:** * Utility marksmen (e.g. Ashe) seem to be in a reasonable spot. Caster/early game marksmen (e.g. MF) are performing strongly too, too well in some cases. Crit using marksmen (late game AA focused) however may need further item work (not straight buffs, but adjustments to who they're strong/weak against when). * Armor pen needs some followup changes after the Lethality buffs. Some of that's Black Cleaver being too broadly appealing, leading to some excessive strength sometimes when combined with Lethality. We'll be shifting BC to a higher health/lower AD profile as a result. Longer term (mid season potentially) we'll also likely take a larger look at the different armor pen types. As a stop gap before that we're testing Last Whisper (the component of Lord Dominick's and Mortal Reminder) having the same % pen as those upgrades, but less AD as a safety valve against mid game armor stacking. plus a reduction in the Lethality from Ghostblade and Masteries. * We'll also probably be nerfing some individual marksmen in the near future. Corki and Jhin are the most likely candidates. * We'll be making changes to Fervor and Warlord's. Warlord's being an effective default choice leads to a situation where you either take the thing that lets you not lose lane or the thing that lets you be appropriately effective later in the game IF you didn't get crushed too much in lane in the first place. We want Warlord's to be more niche as a result. * We're not seeing other classes edge marksmen out of bot lane. So far Ziggs is the only mage getting meaningful play as a farming bot laner and, while he looks a bit strong, we're still happy with his presence there. Long term we'll likely look at whether there are a couple of other mages we could get into bot lane in a similar way (tower taking power's probably some of the answer there)
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Vis3xuaI (NA)
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Hi Meddler, Since the topic's on Marksemen, are there any changes in line for {{champion:203}} in the future?
Meddler (NA)
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We'll probably make it so the first mark spawns on a Scuttle crab consistently, rather than sometimes on Raptors, given how hard that camp is now for them to deal with. Was a problem case someone called out on Boards the other day that looks like an example of bad RNG (low room for adaptability, little cross team fairness, feeling of 'get screwed'. Beyond that not at present. Some interest in looking at their scaling/power curve once we've got the mid-season stuff figured out, nothing concrete nailed down though.
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How about giving back Azir W on Tower?
Meddler (NA)
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We took Azir's tower W away because he's got too many different strengths on his kit. Something like that might make sense on another mage, Azir's not the right candidate though.
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Speaking of Azir, any word of his Shyvana scope rework plans?
Meddler (NA)
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Probably sometime this year, would expect second half. He's probably the champ who'll get the most value from it, but he's also the champ who'll probably be the biggest job by a large margin so we're getting some low cost+medium value ones done first.
DJ Lucio (NA)
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What are your plans for Jhin currently? Is there any future plans for Lucian? I still feel he's very weak and isn't being as strong a bully in-lane as he should be.
Meddler (NA)
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For Jhin we've been testing a nerf to the ult slow (shorter duration or decaying slow) to reduce his ability to nuke down squishies with just his ult in some circumstances. Also considering reducing damage to minions from his traps to reduce his wave clear. Those aren't locked changes yet though. For Lucian we'll want to see the impact of Warlord's and Fervor changes before assessing him again, since he's likely to be one of the more affected champs by those.
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Speaking of Lucian, how do you feel about him in regards to strategic identity? He doesn't really seem to have a distinct/unique niche as a Marksman aside from "duelist," which other Marksmen can arguably do better (i.e. Quinn, Vayne). Could be a reason why he's struggling.
Meddler (NA)
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I'd agree he's too generalist. Early game bully who's short ish ranged but mobile is part of the identity he should have I think so we've got a decent start at least. Would be nice to see him bring something unique to a team as well though.
Kyunsei (EUW)
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> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=XuAJPHo1,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-02-10T19:39:46.490+0000) > > For Jhin we've been testing a nerf to the ult slow (shorter duration or decaying slow) to reduce his ability to nuke down squishies with just his ult in some circumstances. Also considering reducing damage to minions from his traps to reduce his wave clear. Those aren't locked changes yet though. > > For Lucian we'll want to see the impact of Warlord's and Fervor changes before assessing him again, since he's likely to be one of the more affected champs by those. Can we expect those Fervor changes in patch 7.4 ?
Meddler (NA)
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Probably.
If Warlord's is unhealthy when it's strong then why keep it even as a niche? Shouldn't every Keystone be viable on some champions all the time? If Warlords is creating problems and is too general it should be replaced like SotA was, right?
Meddler (NA)
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Longer term (not next patch anyway) we'll want to make more foundational changes to Warlord's to do exactly that. Window its sustain is the most likely option we've been kicking around (only works at all below X% health, or triggers but has a CD or other similar mechanics).
Maddey (EUNE)
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Hey Meddler, do you have any specific direction you want to lead fervor into, or is it just some minor work?
Meddler (NA)
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More minor stuff (could be duration again).
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Meddler, I know this isn't the place for this but: What's the deal with supports after your experiment? More mages are being played in the support role recently, and I'm wondering if you guys are still working on support and making it have greater broad appeal. Thanks for your time.
Meddler (NA)
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We'll have a number of changes coming out gradually over time. Next up are some XP changes in 7.4, should have details of those posted shortly (today or early next week at a guess).
Habbyman (OCE)
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Mr Meddler! Mr Meddler! Over here, Sir! This is a deviation from marksmen, but I believe you are able to answer this. I've heard the Aurelion 'rework' was scrapped, but does this mean he will not be getting worked on?
Meddler (NA)
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Possible we might do some smaller changes, far from guaranteed though.
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Hi meddler, I appreciate you making this. Just a quick question: I know she recently got a buff, but how do you feel about trist? She's been in a "meh" spot for a while.
Meddler (NA)
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I think she needs larger work at some point. The recent buff was just to put her in a better spot until then (she's got issues, but we were confident we wouldn't be creating game health issues by buffing her that much).
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