# Deathfire vs. Thunderlords - The Definitive Calculations (Accounting for Precision and others)

Thunderlords or Deathfire, a long-held debate, and one I hope to assist. **These tables are unique among most because they account for the second-last masteries such as Precision, Intelligence, Battering Blows, and Piercing Thoughts.** These tables cannot account for hybrid champions; they are too far outside the scope, and would require a full-fledged calculator beyond what a table can intuitively display *** **These tables count the amount of second-ticks it takes for Deathfires to equal Thunderlords.** Technically the Deathfire ticks are in half-second intervals, but that&#039;s a technical distinction that doesn&#039;t change the results. #Steps to Use 1. Pick whether the champion is AD or AP. Find it below. 2. Decide if the champion would pick Precision or Intelligence, if they were to run Thunderlords. Pick the corresponding table. 3. Pick a level. 4. On the table, at the top, locate the AP or Bonus AD amount at the top. 5. On the table, on the left, locate the armor or MR to test against. 6. The result is the number of second-ticks required for Deathfire to outdamage Thunderlords. *** #An Example Run I choose to test out Malzahar. Malzahar **is AP**, and **would run Precision** if they went for Thunderlords. I figure I want to know the damage difference at Level 5, so [I find the corresponding table.](http://i.imgur.com/cSSaHb5.png) At around **Level 5**, Malzahar has about **150 AP**. I find 150 AP on the table. The 150 AP column shows that regardless of the enemy MR amount, **it only takes about 5.5 Deathfire Ticks to Outdamage Thunderlords.** Since **Malefic Visions alone does 5 ticks of damage, then for level 5, I prefer Deathfire over Thunderlords for raw damage.** *** #[For Reference, Ticks from Deathfire per Spell Type](http://i.imgur.com/IDwi82d.png) Remember that even if Deathfire does more damage, it is dealt over time instead of front-loaded as a single burst. **Burst has inherent value over sustained damage, and it should be weighed accordingly.** On the other hand, Deathfire can hit more targets than Thunderlords. If a spell hits two targets for three seconds, that&#039;s already six second-ticks worth of damage. **AOE spells can be adding significantly more second-ticks than single-target spells despite their mitigated duration.** Finally, the value of Intelligence (45% CDR) may not be something that should be directly weighed against more raw damage. Many champions, such as Vel&#039;koz, heavily benefit from the spammability of each spell moreso than the sheer damage they cause. *** ##Ability Power: Deathfire + Piercing vs. Thunderlords + **Precision** ##[Level 1](http://i.imgur.com/iydIkJH.png) ##[Level 2](http://i.imgur.com/2Me9nfT.png) ##[Level 3](http://i.imgur.com/HjLGpAq.png) ##[Level 4](http://i.imgur.com/OiW5XVV.png) ##[Level 5](http://i.imgur.com/cSSaHb5.png) ##[Level 6](http://i.imgur.com/wZ7leRs.png) ##[Level 8](http://i.imgur.com/I89gI5g.png) ##[Level 10](http://i.imgur.com/1K29PBh.png) ##[Level 14](http://i.imgur.com/mwMpqQH.png) ##[Level 18](http://i.imgur.com/xx7vM14.png) | - | ##Ability Power: Deathfire + Piercing vs. Thunderlords + **Intelligence** ##[Level 1](http://i.imgur.com/x5jyEjW.png) ##[Level 2](http://i.imgur.com/1oNawJx.png) ##[Level 3](http://i.imgur.com/jIJwqJ1.png) ##[Level 4](http://i.imgur.com/zrAE65k.png) ##[Level 5](http://i.imgur.com/OLwUNDZ.png) ##[Level 6](http://i.imgur.com/9gAkoXG.png) ##[Level 8](http://i.imgur.com/E6NlJGd.png) ##[Level 10](http://i.imgur.com/j9Fxud5.png) ##[Level 14](http://i.imgur.com/K4UuJUO.png) ##[Level 18](http://i.imgur.com/CQK45FO.png) *** #The Attack Damage Tables ##Attack Damage: Deathfire + Battering vs. Thunderlords + **Precision** ##[Level 1](http://i.imgur.com/oH1jncE.png) ##[Level 2](http://i.imgur.com/q1AiWGH.png) ##[Level 3](http://i.imgur.com/aWq59nA.png) ##[Level 4](http://i.imgur.com/jIiKUDG.png) ##[Level 5](http://i.imgur.com/KwFejG9.png) ##[Level 6](http://i.imgur.com/ZYNn2yk.png) ##[Level 8](http://i.imgur.com/SAusYZ9.png) ##[Level 10](http://i.imgur.com/4iK0nIY.png) ##[Level 14](http://i.imgur.com/DXJUuAM.png) ##[Level 18](http://i.imgur.com/rGOM3dG.png) | - | ##Attack Damage: Deathfire + Battering vs. Thunderlords + **Intelligence** ##[Level 1](http://i.imgur.com/6mt5PdU.png) ##[Level 2](http://i.imgur.com/ZEAjI85.png) ##[Level 3](http://i.imgur.com/AEI3Mxi.png) ##[Level 4](http://i.imgur.com/C58ULqf.png) ##[Level 5](http://i.imgur.com/El0pQX0.png) ##[Level 6](http://i.imgur.com/4tH8rpU.png) ##[Level 8](http://i.imgur.com/lBuZyPM.png) ##[Level 10](http://i.imgur.com/zRrRXC0.png) ##[Level 14](http://i.imgur.com/IrLzbYE.png) ##[Level 18](http://i.imgur.com/H18aASZ.png) *** #Some Observations ##The value of Deathfire for AP Burst Champions is vastly undervalued. We can see that for many mages, it only takes about 6 ticks (two spell&#039;s worth) to deal more damage than Thunderlords. This means an Annie landing two Disintegrates over the course of 25 seconds would easily be doing more than Thunderlords. Using Summon Tibbers + stun and following with Disintegrate would easily do 6 ticks worth of damage, despite the damage being front-loaded as burst. The burst is not to be undervalued of course, but it&#039;s interesting to note that Deathfires can do similarly competitive damage in the first place. ##Deathfires is undervalued for AD Champions Similar to the previous observation, a number of AD champion can get far more mileage out of Deathfire than would be expected. Consider Pantheon, a typical Thunderlords user. At most intervals, **it only takes two spears over 23 seconds for Deathfire to deal more damage than Thunderlords.** That&#039;s an exceedingly reasonable thing for Pantheon to do during the laning phase. Pantheon&#039;s burst is also not instant, meaning Deathfires could potentially get even further mileage. This is, again, not saying that burst from Thunderlords is something to ignore, but rather that Deathfires can be competitive with damage. ##Deathfire is better early, but quickly gets taken over by Thunderlords without sufficient AP/AD This is a more intuitive conclusion, but is something that is nice to see very visibly occur in the table. *** Thanks for reading!
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