@Meddler can we talk about Garen? How long do you plan on ignoring any advice from Garen mains?

Okay so just before I start, I want to say I tried the 6.24 changes or "buff" to Garen which has 25% armor shred on his E which was actually nerfed from the initial 35% scaling with levels. **My question is this:** **_What exactly did you accomplish by giving Garen this "buff"?_** Did it change any of his match ups? **_No_** Did it lead to a more dominant laning phase with the shitty base damage on Garen's E? **_No_** Did it give him a means to trade better against almost all of the champions he struggles against? **_No_** Did it accomplish E max on Garen again? **_No_** Now hear me out, Garen has one of the weakest laning phase amongst all champions in top with no real form of sustain which means he gets decimated by champions who have either more means of sustain, burst, or a shield mechanic (the new cheese on every champion from Riot in S7) than him in the early levels. Examples of such champions are Riven, Tryndamere, Renekton, Irelia, Poppy, Trundle, Darius...the list goes on. Its even hilariously sad that **Nasus**, **a champion with a supposed terrible early game** gives Garen trouble in lane with E max unless you run a very specialized rune page on Garen to deal with it._**LOL**_ Right now you literally can not trade with much if any champions in the laning phase _successfully_ considering they will outduel you at any point in the early game due to their kits inherently offering more dueling potential due to sustain or shields except maybe level 6 where you can get a cheese kill with ignite + Ult combo or level 11 when the ticks on Garen's E start scaling with levels. To top it off, Darius literally does **everything** better than Garen at any point so **what is the point of even picking Garen when you have a champion like Darius who is better at every stage of the game and fulfills the same niche?** Like why should any sane player pick Garen over Darius except for the dedicated Garen mains who genuinely enjoy playing a shittier version of Darius? Its honestly disheartening when you completely ignore the cries of Garen players in higher elo and give him a small "buff" which at some point is going to be completely mediocre approaching into Season 7 and on top of it you nerf it as well by 10%. To quote you Meddler, you said something to the effect of we will be toning Garen's numbers in patch 6.24 as well. In that case I would like to see those Movement Speed nerfs reverted along with the Silence Duration nerfs reverted. Its absolutely downright disgusting how Garen doesn't even do well in the match ups he was once supposed to during the multiple nerfs he recieved along with the big hit to the bruiser items. **Keeping all this in mind, I just have a question for you Meddler:** _**So what is the point of such a mediocre change and what do you think its going to accomplish for Garen?**_ **UPDATE: MEDDLER'S RESPONSE** > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NrIimRFN,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-11-28T23:23:02.212+0000) > > There are a few things we're hoping to accomplish by adding a shred to Garen's E: > > 1. We want to buff Garen moderately. He's underperforming, and has been for a while. At the same time though when he's strong his kit leaves some opponents feeling unable to deal with him. He's certainly not unique in that regard, he is one of the tankier champions to have that trait though, with a really reliable combat pattern in those match ups. A moderate, rather than large, buff is our target for a single patch as a result. > > 2. We want Garen to be more impactful on team compositions. We want champions in general to have a moderate degree of impact on which champions you pick alongside them. Garen at present's pretty soft in that regard, with a low degree of team power contribution (as opposed to personal power). Adding an Armor Shred, rather than just increasing his own damage, makes it more attractive to pair him with multiple other champions with significant physical damage. It also means that Garen getting a lot of kills, as he can be prone to do with his ult in particular, feels like a better use of those kills than at present - the items and XP he'll be getting from them should at least somewhat improve his ability to keep that shred up. > > 3. We want to increase the impact playing well as Garen and playing well against Garen has. The shred comes all at once after 4 E hits, rather than gradually stacking, to both slightly reward good Garen play and good play against Garen more (clear success/fail cases). > > 4. We'd like Garen to be a bit more target agnostic. When ahead Q/E/R can burst squishies pretty hard. When behind though he can really struggle to have any impact of note on tankier enemy champs. A % armor shred evens that out a bit. > > > In terms of listening to Garen mains we always want to get some understanding of how the most frequent players of a champion feel about that champ's current state. That can offer some really good insights. At the same time though listening to mains doesn't necessarily mean doing what's asked. Some players do a great job of separating out personal feelings from suggested changes and offer really nuanced feedback that solves problems. Others however will push for buffs to their favorite champs until those champs are the strongest, or close to strongest, members of their class, without regard for the impact on other champs or the game as a whole. **MY RESPONSE: ** First of all I'd like to **thank you** for finally commenting on what direction you plan on taking Garen. It means a lot when you show you actually care about a champion's base of players even from a balance perspective. Couple of things: I am in favor of **_moderately_** buffing Garen as long as they are **_significant_** buffs to his gameplay. I am going to quote one of the other players in this thread: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NrIimRFN,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-11-28T17:09:03.454+0000) >_" hes at a point, where he deserves a significant buff. **giving him the wrong one seems like a wasted opportunity**. i think there are other changes possible tha would really help him in the long run."_ To put it bluntly I don't want to have to suffer for the entirety of S7 with feeling little to no reward for playing Garen when I could be playing someone like Darius. I am **not** asking for Garen to be at a stage where he's OP. _However_, what I am asking is to be rewarded for picking Garen in some situations feeling like **he excels at something which other champions do not**. Putting personal feelings aside, Its pretty frustrating playing Garen when you know the other champion i.e. a champion like Darius who will simply offer more at every stage of the game and you can't even outscale him. Does that mean I should simply just not play Garen as long as Darius exists in his current state or what? Its more or less a simple fact that you will lose to him Early, Mid and Late game. I don't think its unreasonable to ask that I should feel as Garen at some point I should feel like I will fare up or do better at some stage. I mean if Darius can exist in such a stage in fulfilling the exact same role **while** having obvious counters, _why can't Garen?_ **Does that mean Darius is now too strong and unhealthy?** Keeping all this in mind, I suggested _utility buffs_ not _number buffs_ such as reverting back to 2.5 second silence at max level and reverting the 30% movement speed back to 35%. I understand everyone has their own way of looking at the situation judging from the multiple posts and I expect you guys to take the best. I just hope I did my job in bringing to light some major issues which need to be addressed while looking at these changes and move them forward in a _significant_ way rather than offering wasted opportunities which won't be revisited for over a year. {{champion:86}}
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