[Not a Riot-bashing post] Why was Veigar changed at this point in this way?

UPDATE: Meddler has responded in comments below. ------------- I'm glad you're looking into our endearing master of evil. I adore the Q change. Q farming is better than it's ever been. The R change (as I've pointed out on the PBE forums) I believe was due to mistaking what appears to be a bug for Veigar's innate power. The W change is... well... kinda pointless, really, based on how Veigar is played in practice, but okay, whatever; we'll take it. It's just the E that has everyone up in arms. As you pointed out originally (and I think many people glossed over/forgot on account of rage-induced amnesia), Veigar was in a state that if he ever became popular, he'd have to have the tar nerfed out of him until a rework came on account of his E which is up there with even the most powerful ultimates. I agree his classic E is bad (see footnote 1) for the game. What I do not understand is what caused this. Veigar didn't suddenly become popular. To my knowledge at least, Veigar didn't become a popular pick in the pro scene (though admittedly, I only watch casually, so perhaps I'm wrong). Given his lack of popularity, Veigar ought to have been low on the priority list to fix since while his E definitely had problems, he wasn't picked frequently enough to actually cause much of a larger nuisance. What piece of straw broke the camel's back? Did you do some analysis of Veigar mains and find that 90% of their games basically had them toxically stunning/instagibbing people or something? Did the other things in your work queue lose priority or something? Was this just a freak thing that got through since it was chalked up to "easy solution?" Was this really all just a byproduct of removing DFG and fearing that the Q change would make him popular? So far, your posts on the subjects have made it sound like the last of the above. This has made me curious. You see, a lot of players (as I'm sure you've noticed), including myself, have been upset by the change that we believe invalidates what Veigar is. Veigar is a burst mage that previously could 1v1 a squishy. Now, that's not really much of an option. Between the removal of DFG (see footnote 2) and the grave difficulty of hitting his new stun (see footnote 3), I see the changes having a very net negative impact on him. I play a lot of Veigar. I used to main him actually and while I don't play him that much anymore, I do still play him a lot. I just don't understand why you'd allow a champion with so many strategic counters (see footnote 4) to be given such a major tactical one as well. Veigar getting more AP via Q is great. Everyone loves that. Yes, there's a valid argument that it's now worse against mobile champions, but overall I'd call it a buff and a major QoL improvement (though I will admit it makes keeping up in poke difficult). But just because he has more AP doesn't mean he'll actually be more useful. A large chunk of his damage, particularly during laning, is focused in his W. If he can't hit that, he can't get a kill. It's just not going to happen. In practice, E and W were basically one ability (W being effectively worthless in 1v1 situations unless you'd previously stunned them so it would hit). Without the assurance that E will hit now (refer again to footnote 3), W has basically been rendered useless in lane, barring a gank. Veigar, a classic 1v1 mage, can no longer effectively 1v1 provided he is facing a competent opponent. I just can't understand why adding a delay to his E was what was considered the best option. You've indicated that you're confident that this is the right route to take, even if 0.75 is too much of a delay. Why? I don't think I've seen that explained and I'm genuinely wondering what your reasoning is. I'm sure you have something. Is this just a temporary band-aid until W and E get proper reworks some time down the line? Is this here to stay? Something else? From my perspective, it looks like this is meant to be a permanent fix to remove the toxicity that was his old E. If that's the case though, why did the change implemented have to run the risk of invalidating W? Why wasn't W changed to make it usable without E or something? There have been tons of ideas thrown around the forums ever since the Veigar changes were announced and IMO, many of them solve the issue better than a simple delay. I just don't understand why so much tactical counterplay was added to him without at least removing some of the strategic counterplay against him. At this point, it just feels like he lost nearly all 1v1 kill potential against competent opponents and his ability to initiate teamfights, yet gained basically nothing except raw AP that he can't actually put to use. Again, that's my main concern at this point (please see footnote 3): Veigar seems to have been rendered an AP collector that can't actually do anything productive on account of being too easily countered. **So to summarize: Why was Veigar changed at this point in time and why was he changed in this way?** ----------------- **Footnote 1 - Event Horizon's Toxicity**: His E allows for unquestionable, unanswerable damage once a player has mastered Event Horizon. I agree there is no tactical counterplay to be found here. That said, the argument has been made that Veigar has strategic counterplay in spades and as such does not need the tactical counterplay. Thus, it has been argued, while it may itself be toxic, on the whole, it does not make Veigar toxic. I am not, however, advocating that E shouldn't have been changed at all. **Footnote 2 - DFG's Removal**: It has been said that Veigar's changes would compensate for the removal of DFG. One of the biggest things about Veigar losing DFG is that he lost something that could have potentially been used to compensate for using his Q to break a Banshee's Veil (see footnote 4). Not only did he lose damage, the removal of the item also significantly strengthened a strategic counter against him. While the damage can be compensated by Q farming, the newfound counter is not, to my knowledge, accounted for or compensated for anywhere. Also, I do not see Item 3285 (it's a Statikk Shiv for mages that gives 120 AP and 7% MS that's on PBE, if you're a community member that hasn't heard of it yet) as doing much to compensate Veigar. **Footnote 3 - Laning Against Competent Opponents**: As soon as the changes hit PBE, I and a friend that mains Vel'koz who also plays a lot of Veigar hit the test servers to see how it would turn out. It's worth noting that we've done this matchup before. I typically stomp him, at least after I get enough AP. This time was very different. Despite my play being worlds better than his, he was able to defeat me at every turn with ease. He never even built boots. That's how little he cared about my E. He'd walk out or even if he did magically get trapped in it, he'd just walk away from my W as it was falling. At the end of the game, I had 5k gold more than he did and 1487 AP, yet I could not 1v1 him to save my life (and I play a lot of Vel'koz, so I know how to dodge his abilities and did the vast majority of the time). E was changed from useful in 1v1 situations to useless which in turn renders W useless. Once he got a Banshee's Veil (see footnote 4), nothing I did mattered to him. To reiterate: with the delay, half of my spells became useless, even without him building movement speed. Once he built a classic strategic counter to Veigar, I was useless. It's one thing if he can sometimes dodge it and sometimes not. But he was dodging the stun upwards of 95% of the time. That's... not good. If this were one mere datapoint, that would be one thing. But I've played games since then. I overwhelmingly defeat my opponent in terms of CS, but absolutely cannot kill them on my own anymore unless they are remarkably incompetent until after laning phase is over. Until Veigar gets so fed that he can QR to instagib someone, he's little more than a CS-absorber. **Footnote 4 - Tactical and Strategic Counters**: It's unquestionable that classic E has no tactical counters. The thing is though, Veigar has always been held in check by strategic ones. First and foremost, you can easily counterpick him due to the mechanics of his ultimate. He can also easily be killed early game as he has not yet spun up. Unfortunately for the little demented Yordle, there are more than just those two. Being the archetypal burst mage, he is and has been hard countered by two items: Banshee's Veil, and QSS. Veigar must rely on getting off his full burst in order to kill someone (now more than before since R's ratio has been nerfed and Q has become a skillshot which has made W's damage a higher percent of his total burst). BV has always naturally prevented this by blocking at least one of his spells. QSS on the other hand allows the player to escape E which in practice means escaping W. Tenacity is similar, but by no means as effective as QSS. Zhonya's, when combined with either QSS or Tenacity, allows enemies to completely ignore all of his damage. No other mage is hit nearly as hard as Veigar is in this department. Even Karthus is less impacted because at least he has other spells aside from his very blockable ult. Let me be clear: a competent opponent will buy BV against Veigar, thereby forcing him to burn his ult if he wishes to do *any damage whatsoever*. I cannot understand why Veigar was given additional tactical counters without assisting him with his existing problems with strategic counters (on top of the DFG removal exacerbating a classic strategic weakness). I feel very strongly at this point that countering Veigar is simply too easy and will result in Veigar's win rate and pick rate both dropping precipitously. --------------- **Regarding responses from community members**: I genuinely would like a response from the devs on this. Please try to keep your posts in this thread respectful.
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