@Riot DyQuill Answers On Varus? What are your plans?

Hi! This is a message directly to Riot Dyquill, you are one of the few rioters that actually braved the boards and answered people's questions about the state of Varus's new lore and how people feel about it. I have to give you respect for being one of the few that actually came onto the boards to discuss this subject. I am responsible for these three threads that have collected a total of 474 up votes (at the time of writing this thread) https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/AynzcA3s-as-a-husband-changing-varuss-story-has-broken-my-heart-open-letter-to-riot https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/Webxe5fE-riot-wont-ever-change-varus-because-of-the-music-video https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/Jumtus1c-varus-being-changed-to-gay-feels-wrong-for-his-character So as you could tell I am very passionate about Varus's character, and if you have seen these threads I don't need to get into my opinion of what I think of the new lore. TL ;DR I think it pales in comparison to his original and im not the only one who thinks that So, since you are on the team and one of the few that will actually reach out and talk to people about it. I want to ask, what are your plans? ARE there plans? What has happened internally to the reaction on the boards? Just please, we want to hear what your next plans are? Or if you are planning on doing anything at all?
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I don’t think he’s coming, mate. Now I hope to be proven wrong. But you’re asking an author to spoil their own story. They’re not going to do it. What’s more, since the start of the Great Varus Fiasco of 2017 was when information about the lore change leaked too early. I guarantee at least one person at Riot is going to blame that for the fan reaction, and shut down further potential story explanations. Instead of just admitting what they did was needlessly devisive.
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-04T23:24:45.692+0000) > > I don’t think he’s coming, mate. Now I hope to be proven wrong. But you’re asking an author to spoil their own story. They’re not going to do it. https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlondWelloffInsect-size_restricted.gif Also just so there's no mix-up, u/DinoPawz was the narrative writer for Varus: Retribution, I'm just trying to help answer some questions
DyQuill (NA)
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Yo sorry I didn't see this until now - unfortunately Boards only notifies us if someone replies to a comment, not if they just mention a red name. I've been talking with Rioters not just on the team behind Varus, but Narrative in general, and while I promise this is not the last you'll hear from us, I don't know what the next time looks like yet (i.e. Nexus post, more comments on Boards/reddit, etc.) Feel free to keep hitting us up here for now.
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> [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-12-06T00:47:12.770+0000) > > Yo sorry I didn't see this until now - unfortunately Boards only notifies us if someone replies to a comment, not if they just mention a red name. > > I've been talking with Rioters not just on the team behind Varus, but Narrative in general, and while I promise this is not the last you'll hear from us, I don't know what the next time looks like yet (i.e. Nexus post, more comments on Boards/reddit, etc.) > > Feel free to keep hitting us up here for now. Thank you for coming But im sorry it sounds like the excuse of "we are talking internally and will get back to you soon" then never hear of it again. Then when enough people make enough noise we get the trade marked excuse of "Oh its been pushed to the back burner while we focus and allocate our resources somewhere else" It's a classic deflection and hoping that we "just let go and forget about it."
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=CanadianGuyEh,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=00080005,timestamp=2017-12-06T16:14:13.923+0000) > > Thank you for coming > > But im sorry it sounds like the excuse of "we are talking internally and will get back to you soon" then never hear of it again. Then when enough people make enough noise we get the trade marked excuse of "Oh its been pushed to the back burner while we focus and allocate our resources somewhere else" It's a classic deflection and hoping that we "just let go and forget about it." Yeah, i totally get that it sounds like an excuse. Honest truth is that we just haven't decided how to do an update yet (to give you a little more insight - should we just talk about Varus? Or do something more broad, covering multiple champs that have had/will have their backstories change?). Remember that there isn't just a "Varus team" with that as their only job - we're doing a bunch of stuff simultaneously, but there hasn't been a day since the new narrative launched that we haven't talked about it in some capacity. Like I've said before, hold us accountable and feel free to keep bugging me about it. Won't ghost you or the rest of the community.
Tendrian (EUW)
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> [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=000800050000,timestamp=2017-12-07T18:46:30.449+0000) > > Yeah, i totally get that it sounds like an excuse. Honest truth is that we just haven't decided how to do an update yet (to give you a little more insight - should we just talk about Varus? Or do something more broad, covering multiple champs that have had/will have their backstories change? While I mostly care about Varus, it would sure be nice to get a general statement about the direction/vision of the lore team. Will future rewrites be more conservative/mindful of existing backstory, or can we expect more of what is basically just replacing the old characters with new ones? I believe for a decent number of people, at least here on the boards, it depends on the answer to that question if they have any interest of engaging with the new stuff that's about to come.
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Tendrian,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0008000500000003,timestamp=2017-12-08T00:54:54.630+0000) > > While I mostly care about Varus, it would sure be nice to get a general statement about the direction/vision of the lore team. Will future rewrites be more conservative/mindful of existing backstory, or can we expect more of what is basically just replacing the old characters with new ones? I believe for a decent number of people, at least here on the boards, it depends on the answer to that question if they have any interest of engaging with the new stuff that's about to come. Yeah, these are some really good questions, and I'll be bringing it up with the broader team involved with Narrative. Good call out!
Tendrian (EUW)
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There has pretty much been radio silence from Riot since the lore dropped... can we get an update about your assessment of the situation? How much negative feedback has there actually been, compared to positive? Was there a noticeable split in opinion between people actually involved with the lore and those who only casually cared about it due to the big announcement? What do you think about the situation in general?
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Tendrian,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=00080004,timestamp=2017-12-06T02:46:21.458+0000) > > There has pretty much been radio silence from Riot since the lore dropped... can we get an update about your assessment of the situation? How much negative feedback has there actually been, compared to positive? Was there a noticeable split in opinion between people actually involved with the lore and those who only casually cared about it due to the big announcement? What do you think about the situation in general? i disagree with this a little - since the new narrative dropped, we've posted comments across forums almost every day, and have definitely been reading all the threads. I can give you some answers about overall reception, but to be honest, I feel like posting that kind of update will be taken as argumentative or defensive, because it's definitely not the view Boards often seems to have. I don't want to come in here saying something that can be read as "the rest of the world is cool with it," because 1. not the point most posters here are bringing up, which is valid and doesn't become invalid because they're a minority and 2. doesn't seem like the start of a fruitful discussion. The situation in general is that the community (Boards and beyond) could probably use some more insight into how we think about champions and their stories. I'm working on that now. One thing I do want to ask about, because I think it's relevant and something you can give us insight about: what do you see as the difference between "people actually involved with the lore" and those "who only casually care?" I don't disagree there's a difference, but I want to know how you all differentiate between those groups.
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The boards are a teeny tiny subsection of players in general, and the lore interested one is even smaller than that. The reaction to the lore has been great literally everywhere but here, and even here, on every single poll at least 40% of the votes said they like the new lore better. People here just don’t want to get into arguments in the 400 threads people have made.
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This is a stupid argument. Lets assume that there is indeed a discrepancy in the actual feeling because it's true that ppl are more into complaining than praising (except when the praise is really well deserved). Among the Boards we have most likely only threads about how Varus lore was bad handled, the only thing every1 agrees is that the video was perfectly done (I have to say that I still can't get pass the "wrong" hand but that's me). Lets put in positive feedback in replies and so it roughly makes an 80% of complain vs 20% praise. Do you think that the rest of the playerbase doesn't fall in a similar interval? DO yous eriously think that every1 not expressing their opinions here is against what the majority of the players here think?
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What I'm saying is that the only real negative feedback for the new lore has been on this board, and even here polls indicated that 40ish% still liked the new lore better. Everywhere else (including the Varus Main subreddit, who should care the most about their champ) have pretty much overwhelmingly liked the new lore. If the new lore is objectively bad then why do the numbers say the majority of players like it?
IDarkIFire (EUNE)
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Well i posted on r/leagueoflegends but my post got immediately removed, when i tried to repost - reported as spam. Keep in mind there was nothing offensive, and it was structured point by point with argumentation.... As for the whole boards and twitter thing - you actually need to have an ACCOUNT to be on here. On twitter anyone can post - they see homosexuality being in some context, they tell themselves "hey i want to come out as progressive - slap a like". Video is stunning, don't get me wrong, but a lot of the people that only look at the artwork are ignorant about all else in question... EDIT: You can find said post on the boards here i reposted here in the end.
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> [{quoted}](name=LiubenX,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0003000100000002,timestamp=2017-12-05T02:29:24.734+0000) > > Well i posted on r/leagueoflegends but my post got immediately removed, when i tried to repost - reported as spam. Keep in mind there was nothing offensive, and it was structured point by point with argumentation.... As for the whole boards and twitter thing - you actually need to have an ACCOUNT to be on here. On twitter anyone can post - they see homosexuality being in some context, they tell themselves "hey i want to come out as progressive - slap a like". Video is stunning, don't get me wrong, but a lot of the people that only look at the artwork are ignorant about all else in question... > EDIT: You can find said post on the boards here i reposted here in the end. I have to give credit to LoL that at least on their own boards they don't just remove posts that criticize their decisions. Sometimes on Reddit or YT I feel there is some sort of agenda. Not just Varus, but I've seen some coaches have their threads removed for "self-promotion" whereas others are left up...
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=TresArboles,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=00030001000000020000,timestamp=2017-12-05T14:54:58.434+0000) > > I have to give credit to LoL that at least on their own boards they don't just remove posts that criticize their decisions. > Sometimes on Reddit or YT I feel there is some sort of agenda. Not just Varus, but I've seen some coaches have their threads removed for "self-promotion" whereas others are left up... Just in case this wasn't clear - Riot/Rioters have no power to remove posts on reddit. That community has its own rules, and often the posts from Boards players that get removed break the rules they have there. YouTube we moderate to a degree, because we're not just gonna let slurs fly left and right. But as long as comments avoid flat-out shitty language, we let ad homs and all sorts of critical shit thru.
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Still waiting for some kind of reply/thread/nexus whateverthatis to give us the coup de grace about Varus.
MysterQ (NA)
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Asking for a response is apparently harassment.
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=MysterQ,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2017-12-10T07:56:57.957+0000) > > Asking for a response is apparently harassment. Nah, that's totally fine. Stalking social media, spamming DMs, implying or "jokingly" threatening Rioters - that's harassment territory (super glad this has been minimal for Varus, at least in my experience). Also, I'm here with a minor update: we're leaning towards addressing narrative updates to champions more holistically (so not just Varus) and covering some upcoming stuff as well. Hopefully give you all a framework for how we're thinking so you can give us feedback on that. And while we're definitely not all on vacation, things do slow down a bit as we go into the holidays, so heads up that we won't be constantly commenting on Boards and reddit (except those of us with an unhealthy addiction...)
IDarkIFire (EUNE)
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I believe that "hollistically" is exactly what should Not be done, when the fact is there are Specific points of ctiticism that have never gotten ANY responce from anyone involved in the Varus re-writing. If you are going to adress narratives as an overview and as a whole you will not avoid future Varus cases at all. There is a huge difference between - "well as a whole the champion is still in the game", and - "he's just not the same champion anymore" when it comes to expressing the bare facts. As you've put it it feels like you will stay away from anything specific that might be criticised and keep it "hollistic" - "yeah all in all we did a great job, who cares about points 1 to 20 from the specifics" I completely agree with what TerraRising has posted. The things that are getting replies are only of positive nature. Is speaking your mind about something you think is poor craftsmanship, judgement etc. suddenly above the Varus lore development team or what? Do they not concern themselves with the worries of mere mortals now ? {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} EDIT: Also rather convenient - pushing this change out before the longest holidays in the World, then going on vacation (as TerraRising also said). This only goes to show that they were fully expecting the shitstorm after announcing the change and picked a convenient timing where they can go hide, seems a rather lucky coincidence. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=LiubenX,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=000d000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-13T12:18:40.878+0000) > > I believe that "hollistically" is exactly what should Not be done, when the fact is there are Specific points of ctiticism that have never gotten ANY responce from anyone involved in the Varus re-writing. If you are going to adress narratives as an overview and as a whole you will not avoid future Varus cases at all. There is a huge difference between - "well as a whole the champion is still in the game", and - "he's just not the same champion anymore" when it comes to expressing the bare facts. As you've put it it feels like you will stay away from anything specific that might be criticised and keep it "hollistic" - "yeah all in all we did a great job, who cares about points 1 to 20 from the specifics" > > I completely agree with what TerraRising has posted. The things that are getting replies are only of positive nature. Is speaking your mind about something you think is poor craftsmanship, judgement etc. suddenly above the Varus lore development team or what? Do they not concern themselves with the worries of mere mortals now ? > {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} > > EDIT: Also rather convenient - pushing this change out before the longest holidays in the World, then going on vacation (as TerraRising also said). This only goes to show that they were fully expecting the shitstorm after announcing the change and picked a convenient timing where they can go hide, seems a rather lucky coincidence. > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} We're still planning to give you all a broader Narrative update, but I get that some of you (including Jacc, TerraRising, etc.) feel we haven't answered the "1 to 20 from the specifics." How's this: **if you hit me with a list of specifics you think we have not answered** (and I'm stressing "have not answered," not "answered but I disagree and want to talk about it more because your answer sucks," because we'll be here all winter if we go down that road), **I'll do my best to answer them all when I come back from the holiday. ** I also want to stress that this - continuing to go back and forth with individual players on the same topic over multiple weeks - isn't a great solution for talking about major changes and the philosophy behind them. I'm doing this specifically because posters in this thread have written a ton about Varus and clearly care super deeply about the changes, and to set expectations, we won't be doing this with every narrative update (we'll still jump into comments, but not for this prolonged of a period or with this much 1-to-1 conversation).
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> [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T22:16:01.586+0000) > > Also, I'm here with a minor update: we're leaning towards addressing narrative updates to champions more holistically (so not just Varus) and covering some upcoming stuff as well. Hopefully give you all a framework for how we're thinking so you can give us feedback on that. So... Is this "update" coming before or after the holidays? Or is it coming at all? I would also like to know if the actual Varus team will actually respond to their critics or are they arrogantly convinced that we're just a bunch of bigots and not worth their time.
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=TerraRising,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=000d000000000003,timestamp=2017-12-18T19:59:13.803+0000) > > So... > > Is this "update" coming before or after the holidays? Or is it coming at all? > > I would also like to know if the actual Varus team will actually respond to their critics or are they arrogantly convinced that we're just a bunch of bigots and not worth their time. Update will come after holidays, hopefully in tandem with some other narrative stuff. "Actual Varus team" was a lot more than just Narrative, and they've answered questions as they've come up. As for the members of the team involved with the narrative (e.g. DinoPawz) or communicating about it (e.g. me), I'm doing my best to respond. See previous comment tho - replying individually, pages deep in a weeks-old thread with 14 upvotes, is far from the ideal method of discussing this stuff, so that's why you've got only me in here.
DyQuill (NA)
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Hey all, back again. This is gonna be my last post in this thread, but we’re still working on more Narrative communication to come. I tried to answer questions as best I can without launching into essays for each, combining similar questions where possible but omitting loaded or entirely subjective ones (e.g. “Why the deception when the PBE story leaked” and “Do you plan to address the lore update that was uncalled for and extremely poor in it's creation”). I also didn’t pin it because this is really just following thru on a promise I made to this small group of dedicated Varus mains on Boards, and not meant to be a big announcement. That being said, feel free to link this comment if you see others bring it up who haven’t read it. Thanks for sticking with me on this wild ride - hope we deliver something that resonates with you more in the next one. **WHY DO THIS AT ALL? WHY VARUS SPECIFICALLY?** Super simply put, our philosophy is to keep evolving League - not just the game, but the story and world. In most respects (based on gameplay data + affinity and sentiment surveys), Varus was middling (check out 3m20s mark of the /dev video: https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=3m20s). If we did our job right, players will now feel a lot more strongly about Varus either way - love or hate - and far less will find him just “ok.” I’ll note that it’s totally conceivable to have done this story with a completely new champ; however, our plan is generally to update older champs like Varus regardless, and we thought this story could be a good fit for him. **HOW DID YOU DECIDE? WHAT IS THE PROCESS LIKE?** This is a good example of the kind of question i think is better answered holistically, about our process for all champion updates of this nature. But I’ll try to be more specific. Some of you have asked for specific arguments for and against updating Varus, which I’m not gonna replicate, because we have meetings, emails, messages, random conversations over lunch, survey data, etc. that all contribute to the “argument.” There was never a “final debate” where one side “won” and the other “lost;” in the end, the team (specifically the writing and creative leads) made a decision on what they thought - given everything i’ve just listed above - was the one to do. That being said - there was a ton of debate internally, among the core team but also Rioters in general. Virtually all the arguments that have come up on Boards and beyond came up during that process. (This next bit is more on the holistic side, and really oversimplified, but for what it’s worth…) we generally view champion updates through the lens of “pain versus gain: how many narrative and character possibilities are we gaining at the cost of losing some of the things players already love? We’re still collecting feedback and sentiment, but so far we think we achieved more gain than pain when it comes to Varus. **WHAT DID THE TEAM CONSIDER "CORE" TO VARUS' CHARACTER? **“The core of the character, to us, was the tragic loss of a loved one, the desperation that leads to a "deal with the devil," and obviously the corruption stemming from a weapon.” First answered here: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7gn1yo/varus_as_we_fall_official_music_video_league_of/dql4545/ **WHY REMOVE THE FATHER ASPECT? THAT FELT CORE TO ME.** Originally answered here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/z1dTsaQ6-so-lore-update-means-throwing-away-champions?comment=000000000002001c0000000100000000000000010001 But yeah, we agree this is fair feedback. Ultimately, we felt that romantic love would be a stronger motivator and bond for this particular story - see the next answer. **DID YOU TALK TO VARUS PLAYERS ABOUT THIS?** We have ongoing surveys that ask about favorite champions, as well as “Player Labs” where we invite mains of champs (among many other participants) to give us feedback on work in progress. For Varus specifically, we looked at existing data for sentiment on his backstory and affinity for his character. Every champion has diehard mains, either of that champ’s gameplay or story or both. We’re fully aware that changing champs always runs the risk of leaving those mains feeling betrayed, and so we apply the “pain versus gain” framework I mentioned above in addition to trying to capture as much of their “core” character aspects as possible - but while still trying to push the bar creatively. There’s a ton (and I mean a ton) of work behind the scenes that goes along with making decisions like this. This article on naming a champ (https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/12/naming-new-champions/) gives a good peek behind the scenes. You may not see the surveys, or the conversations, or the “arguments,” but trust me, they happen. **WHY MAKE VAL AND KAI GAY? WAS THIS A PR STUNT OR MOTIVATED BY SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE STORY ITSELF?** Val and Kai and their relationship was 100% a product of creative story decisions, and nothing more. The /dev video goes into some more detail at 5m11s mark (https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=5m11s), but essentially we knew that for this story, they would need to have a super strong bond that would both bring them to desperation and then allow them to overcome the darkin presence; they would need to be partners on the battlefield and in life. While that suggested to us romantic love, rather than familial, the particular genders wouldn’t change anything about their heartlight relationship. So from there, the first draft of the script was written, and featured two warriors named Val and Kai. Simple as that. **WHY DOES YOUR COMMUNICATION SUCK? WHAT WILL YOU DO NEXT TIME THERE'S BACKLASH LIKE THIS?**We’d like to think we suck a lot less now, but there’s always room for improvement. You can expect more Nexus articles and /dev diary videos (which have some of the best reach versus cost-to-make ratios), and the usual smattering of comments on forums like reddit and Boards. If you have other ideas of things you’d like to see, like a podcast or more regular blog, let us know so we can point to your comment and say “LET US GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT.” As for handling backlash - we’ll keep listening and communicating, and take action based on those two-way conversations. But it always starts with the conversations. **HOW DO WE COMMUNICATE OUR PLEASURE/DISPLEASURE WITH YOUR DECISIONS?** Honestly, the way you’re doing it now is fine. I think what this question really is getting at is, how do we have more of an impact on the things Riot does? Which is a fair question as well. My best piece of advice is to be proactive, saying what you’d like to see from X champ long before we’ve locked in the story. Feedback after the fact is still helpful and super encouraged, but we’ve likely made our final decision already, and it's more likely to inform our next decision than the current one - whereas proactive feedback about what you'd like to see can be taken into account during the actual development cycle. Obviously there are cases where we revert those changes, but it takes a ton of strong, accurate, and consistently negative feedback for that to happen. **DO YOU INTEND TO CHANGE/REVERT THE LORE? WHAT WOULD IT TAKE?** I know this isn't the answer this group wants, but no, we don’t. There’s no magic formula that has to happen or threshold that has to be reached for decisions to be changed, but as mentioned above, we’d have to see some major negative backlash before totally reverting a decision that’s been in motion for some time. **AT THE END OF THE DAY - DO YOU GET WHY WE'RE STILL FRUSTRATED AND ASKING YOU ALL THESE QUESTIONS?** Yeah, we totally get it. Wouldn’t still be talking if we didn’t. **WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU SAY?** I can’t answer this for you, but I hope as we continue to communicate about our decisions and update League, you’ll see what we’re saying is truthful and that we’re not here to bullshit you. Even when we disagree with one another, we’ll talk it out and keep it real.
Cosnirak (NA)
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>Ultimately, we felt that romantic love would be a stronger motivator and bond for this particular story This really baffles me. Everything I've ever learned in life and seen others express basically screams at the top of its lungs that this is completely backwards. I sincerely doubt I know a single person who thinks romantic love is stronger than a parent's love for their children and there's not one thing in the story that would make that less true even in the particular situation given. Val and Kai could've been father/son and it would've worked just fine. I can think of other reasons to base it on romantic love that are fine. Overall my only real problem with the story is that I felt it could've easily been even better (and I mean in other ways, not this one). And yet I still can't remotely see this as the reason to make it romantic and the idea that anyone would use that as justification blows my mind. Am I horribly misunderstanding the statement?
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Cosnirak,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-01-13T02:56:34.368+0000) > > This really baffles me. Everything I've ever learned in life and seen others express basically screams at the top of its lungs that this is completely backwards. I sincerely doubt I know a single person who thinks romantic love is stronger than a parent's love for their children and there's not one thing in the story that would make that less true even in the particular situation given. Val and Kai could've been father/son and it would've worked just fine. > > I can think of other reasons to base it on romantic love that are fine. Overall my only real problem with the story is that I felt it could've easily been even better (and I mean in other ways, not this one). And yet I still can't remotely see this as the reason to make it romantic and the idea that anyone would use that as justification blows my mind. Am I horribly misunderstanding the statement? Ah totally see what you're saying, lemme clarify. When i said "stronger motivator," i meant more like "what kind of motivation is the strongest for this story," not "what's the strongest emotion there is." No doubt that familial love ranks right up there with romantic love (maybe even higher?). But when we thought about what motivation makes sense for a story where the crux is a character making an incredibly desperate, risky, and frankly dumb decision, sacrificing everything in a headstrong, hasty bid to avoid losing the person they can't possibly imagine life without, we felt like romantic love matched the particular brand of desperation we were looking for (not to mention the common idiom of "soulmate" fit perfectly with what we planned for the tripartite darkin). Ultimately it's a creative (and subjective) decision on which works best for the story, and it could have potentially gone either way.
Cosnirak (NA)
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>When i said "stronger motivator," i meant more like "what kind of motivation is the strongest for this story," not "what's the strongest emotion there is." That's exactly what I thought you said, no confusion there. I just completely disagree because my entire life experience and all major media I've seen suggests otherwise. I completely agree that romantic love works fine in the story and makes complete sense. But I don't think it's by any means a "stronger motivator for this story." I can see it making for a more 'poetic' ending with all 3 combined because if it were father and son sharing a body with a darkin that could be kind of creepy. But that's not a stronger motivator for the character to go down that path, that's a stronger motivator for the author (and probably to most of the audience's benefit, which means it's a fine choice).
B0OM (NA)
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I think what DyQuill is getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the motivator in Val and Kai's story is almost selfish, versus the selflessness of a father/son story. Val was unable to accept the thought of experiencing life without Kai (the sacrificial action was focused on being able to continue their heartlight relationship in life _together_), versus a father being unable to accept the thought of his son not experiencing life for himself (the sacrificial action would be focused on the son being able to continue living his life _at the expense of the father's_). Both are strong and valid motivators in different contexts, and I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that one is always stronger than the other based solely on personal experience (especially when there are plenty of examples available for both sides).
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=B0OM,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=00110000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-13T21:13:44.782+0000) > > I think what DyQuill is getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the motivator in Val and Kai's story is almost selfish, versus the selflessness of a father/son story. Val was unable to accept the thought of experiencing life without Kai (the sacrificial action was focused on being able to continue their heartlight relationship in life _together_), versus a father being unable to accept the thought of his son not experiencing life for himself (the sacrificial action would be focused on the son being able to continue living his life _at the expense of the father's_). Both are strong and valid motivators in different contexts, and I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that one is always stronger than the other based solely on personal experience (especially when there are plenty of examples available for both sides). Really nice way to word it, and a very interesting perspective.
Quepha (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-01-13T02:23:59.031+0000) > > My best piece of advice is to be proactive, saying what you’d like to see from X champ long before we’ve locked in the story. Are you legitimately trying to troll us with this comment? It honestly makes me angry to read this.
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0011000a,timestamp=2018-01-13T18:53:11.500+0000) > > Are you legitimately trying to troll us with this comment? It honestly makes me angry to read this. No, I wasn't but seeing reactions makes me think I could have worded it much better - my bad. I'm not asking you to be a mind-reader, obviously. What I meant was that it's easier to look at (and potentially incorporate) comments and theories from the community in advance of working on something than after it's mostly finished. For example, if a champ like Galio is on the update schedule and there's a bunch of community threads about what you're hoping/wishing for, that's something we can consider as we develop. Threads after the release are still great feedback, but even if we see something we hadn't thought of/really like, it's a lot more complicated to make a change at that point. (Obviously Varus wasn't on any schedule, so I get that this is mostly moot...just trying to give some insight in general/for the future). The realest answer is that video games are a weird medium where the expectation is that the audience gives feedback on the something as its being created, in real-time, with potential to revert decisions on work that they don't directly make. There's few other forms of art/creative products that function like that, and it's crazy hard to balance our own individual instincts around what will be awesome, the capabilities and plans we have as a company, and what the community (and various sub-communities) want. So the realest answer is we're gonna try our best, listen (and listen, and listen, and keep listening) to your feedback, and make changes when we think it's the right call, but that's it. I know a lot of the community (especially on Boards) wants to have way more involvement/control over that decision-making, but it's just not realistic. We already have hundreds of Rioters trying to make these calls, and I promise your views are represented, even if you're not the one in the meeting.
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> [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-01-13T02:23:59.031+0000) > > **WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU SAY?** I can’t answer this for you, but I hope as we continue to communicate about our decisions and update League, you’ll see what we’re saying is truthful and that we’re not here to bullshit you. Even when we disagree with one another, we’ll talk it out and keep it real. If you're not here to bullshit us, why hide some of the earlier responses including mine??
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=TerraRising,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=00110009,timestamp=2018-01-13T18:00:46.094+0000) > > If you're not here to bullshit us, why hide some of the earlier responses including mine?? I'm not sure what you mean by hiding earlier responses? I can't hide anything on the Boards, and even if I could, I wouldn't.
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I respect this
Quepha (NA)
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How? DyQuill's advice to us is to randomly guess which lores are going to be rewritten with no notification from Riot and start talking about them over a year before the rewrite happens (that's how long ago they started working on this Varus lore rewrite). That's completely unrealistic and he knows it, this is honestly a terrible effort at a response.
DyQuill (NA)
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> [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=001100010000,timestamp=2018-01-13T18:24:16.783+0000) > > How? DyQuill's advice to us is to randomly guess which lores are going to be rewritten with no notification from Riot and start talking about them over a year before the rewrite happens (that's how long ago they started working on this Varus lore rewrite). > > That's completely unrealistic and he knows it, this is honestly a terrible effort at a response. Yeah, i worded that poorly. I left an additional comment to try to clear it up.
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