Rioter Comments
: I'm on mobile (out of office this week), so please don't take the brevity/choppiness/typos of this response as me trying to overly simplify or gloss over any of the issues here. As some of you may already know, I did the gameplay design on Rengar's assassin update, so this is indeed an important issue to me. I don't respond to many Rengar threads (because many seem to be trying to say the same things and it tends to feel like a dead horse is being beaten), but I do try and read all of them here and on places like rengarmains regardless. That said, the effort put in here is, at the very least, admirable and collaborative, so it seems like a decent place to speak up. Rengar is far from perfect in his current state. I'll be the first to admit that. I do remember feeling more nervous (than other updates I've been a part of) than usual prior to his release, because it felt like we took some pretty drastic steps to try to accomplish difficult gameplay goals. Some of these worked out well. Others did not. Outside any individual item, to me, the single biggest shortcoming of the update is that he feels too different too play to really feel like the same champion, which I suppose tends to feel quite bad as some kind of confirmation of my pre-release nerves. The experience has been valuable to me as we hone in on the ingredients of a great update and the risks we may feel comfortable taking, but that should be of little consolation to players that may be feeling betrayed by this update (or any other, really). I've read many ideas for what we could do or ought to have done for Rengar, and still, I'm not sure what would be best. It is easy to know what doesn't work. It can be difficult to know what will. In the spirit of thus thread, below will be my thoughts on Rengar's kit. Keep in mind that this isn't a commitment to any type of incoming change. P I do think the changes to Ferocity generation were a great improvement to Rengar's gameplay, and I believe that this bonetooth is an improvement over the previous one, even if its progression and rewards are not as good as they could be. I'm unsure about the leap elements of the passive that get don't complaints, as I tried to set the range/speed/frequency as high as I could without being unfair to opponents, and I think that some of the complaints about these things mostly come from no longer being able to do some of the same exact jumping behaviors. I agree thus feels bad if you've learned all of them, but I still think the changes made here were generally acceptable. Q If I were to do it again, I would take more of an approach of "keep Q the same at all costs." The spell is mostly good in isolation mechanically (could be a decent spell on a different kit), but just feels bland, rushed, and uninspired here, primarily if you were attached to the previous Q. This said, reverting to the previous Q would result in the kit being back in a state where all of its damage could be applied instantly, and we were trying to move away from that for his update (which, at a goals level, I still do think is correct). W I don't think this spell is perfect, but I stand by it being mechanically better than the previous version. Whether that's true or not, honestly neither version is amazing. It's possible this should have been a new spell entirely, or that it should have part of a more extensive effort to make all of Rengar's instant cast spells not just stackable in the same instant. There is something to be said for the familiarity and simplicity of the spell, I suppose. E Bola is mostly fine. I was shocked by how many players complained that they couldn't instant cast it during leap, but I do think it having a cast time at all times was the right call. R After the Ferocity changes, I think the gains made to R's play for opponents was a definitive step in the right direction for Rengar's kit. I think there some merit to the spell having TOO much counterplay for opponents in the approach and not enough once he's there, but the spell seems far, far better for the game than the previous version, and with some tweaks, could be really great. I also know people tend to complain about the "free" crit on it, but I think rewarding jumping to the right target is appropriate, and damage seems appropriate as well. Perhaps it's the word crit? Maybe it should just be some kind of bonus damage. I'm not entirely sure, but that seems tunable. Pattern I'm not really concerned about whether people think Rengar is an assassin, diver, bruiser, fighter, skirmisher, or whatever. There seems to be enough division there that satisfying a singe singular majority doesn't seem possible. Closing Despite tending to think we made mostly good calls and took mostly good risks with Rengar's update, I think it's pretty clear that the changes to Q primarily tend to overshadow these. In my opinion, Rengar would have been best served by keeping the mechanics of pre-rework Q at all costs, though the way to accomplish that and still hit game health and counterplay goals we aimed for are still unclear, and are unlikely as simple as some passionate players may make it out to be. I'm thankful that League is a constantly changing game where we may get to circle back and revisit changes like these in the future. Thanks for taking the time and effort to put this post together. I know that sometimes it may feel like we aren't listening or don't care when something like this posted and maybe there's no response from a Rioter, but I do think it's rare that we're just turning a blind eye to something players care about. I apologize that it sometimes feels otherwise, and that we (I personally, on this case) don't always make the right calls, but I am thankful for feedback like this that keeps us in touch with player sentiment and helps us to improve moving forward.
Thank you so much for answering us! We all apologize for our previous behavior on our subreddit. The crit on the ult as a reward for correct positioning is interesting, but it is the sole reason why the old Q cannot return, since it would result in an overload of burst. Hence why most of us feel like it needs to go. Have a good day.
Doozku (NA)
: I have thought a lot about Rengar and his new kit, and what I think can be improved with his kit with the goals of making him a fun, counterable, and balanced Assassin, instead of a weird hybrid between a diver and an Assassin. So I’m going to point out the biggest reason as to why Rengar’s kit failed, and what I think Riot should do should they choose to rework him into an actual Assassin. Note that if Riot wants to make him into a bruiser, I’m fine with that, but I think that if they wanted to go in that direction, they should just do a full GU like the one that Aatrox is going to get, instead of just modifying and changing his current kit. So what’s the deal with Rengar? First of all, I want to talk about how other Assassins are balanced and countered, and how this applies to Rengar. From looking at the successful Assassins, I believe that I have divide the class into two main styles. The first style is the big outplay style. In this style, the main burst of the Assassin is heavily delayed, and often they have a lot of skillshots that can be dodged (not always). To make up for this, These Assassins have a very easy time getting to their targets, as well as a lot of mobility. Examples include Zed, Kat, and Fizz. The other type of Assassin is what I like to call a conditional Assassin. These Assassins usually have mediocre general mobility, and more difficulty getting to their targets and/or killing them in normal circumstances. However, if played in the right circumstances, or if put into the right situations, these Assassins can have incredibly fast, impossible to react damage, and incredible mobility. Assassins in this class include Kha’zix (jump resets and isolation), Talon (having to jump on walls to get to his target), and Kassadin (this one is a stretch, but his huge mana problems especially on his R lead him to being conditional). So what does this have to do with Rengar? Rengar’s kit was problematic because it had counterplay from both sides, so it had to give up a lot of the positives of both sides. His burst is delayed, but he loses the great general mobility and outplay potential that comes with it. His kill is heavily reliant on the target’s positioning, but he loses out on the incredibly fast and satisfying burst that he had. I think that part of the problem is that they didn’t go all out on either side. His burst is slow, but if he builds damage and is fed he can still kill you in under 0.25 seconds like he used to. His ult relies on targets being caught out and out of position, but that is too broad of a counterplay as that is something that you really can’t help but do sometimes, not to mention that he can track you down and find you from across the map, so that really doesn’t help with the counterplay. For improving this design, I’d say move Rengar completely into the conditional Assassin side. Old Rengar was definitely what we’d call a conditional Assassin. He had conditional mobility in his passive when he was near brushes, and had extremely fast burst. The problem was that his ultimate lacked real counterplay so he was unhealthy. I’d say revert his Q, but make his ultimate weaker and more difficult to use, and more of an actual hunt. For a suggestion, what if Rengar had to stalk his prey, by marking the target he wanted to kill, and then having to be near them for a certain amount of time before he could jump and kill them. If Rengar got revealed while stalking his prey, his ultimate would be cancelled and he would lose his jump. Another Suggestion would be doubling down on his ferocity mechanic and making it more interactive with opponents, since it was already a condition that Rengar had to meet before being able to Assassinate his Target. Also for the love of god if you want to make him an Assassin give him the ability to escape. I think that the CC immunity on his W was a good idea, but it had to be removed because it was already too broken that Rengar could very easily get to his target and eliminate them without much effort, he also could get out easily. But if you made his kill take more effort, I’d say that you could return the cc removal and maybe even make it stronger, as a reward for killing the target just like how k6 gets his jump resets.
Not sure why you want to make the ultimate even weaker than it currently is, right now you quite literally have to be in range of sight of the enemy if you are going to try to catch the enemy.
Doozku (NA)
: One question though. How does this make him really better to play against. He is still going to end up walking towards you from stealth and by the time that the indicator shows up you are likely already dead in most situations. I think that reverting Q is absolutely fine, but his R needs to be given more counterplay as a result. It needs to be more obvious that Rengar is coming so that you can actually plan around it, since if he reaches you, you are basically guaranteed dead.
I said significantly decreased, not completely remove. The range is what, 4000 units now? It can easily be decreased without becoming as short as it was pre-rework.
: [MEGATHREAD] Let's Discuss: Rengar
Q: Feels clunky since it locks you up if you are playing assassin(not good). Old Q was an AA cancel and felt fluid. Needs a revert. This means that it can be cast before leap, to make up for this simply let Rengar lose his free crit from ult. W: Is problematic. Since it scales off of hp it rewards Rengar for building hp, which is not suited for assassins. Maybe make his regular W grant tenacity and let his ferocity W heal for a flat amount like before rework and remove CC like now? E: Is fine. R: The alert range needs to get significantly decreased so that it feels more like a hunt rather than a military call for the enemy team to group. Enemy shouldn't get alerted before I could jump either, either make both the alert and invisibility instant or make both have a 2 second delay. The alert indicator on the nearest target however, is fair counterplay. Passive: Good change. Prevents ferocity burst build up before ulting. Bonetooth is a little problematic and could be more creative but seems okay like this. Edit: W idea
RiotBok (NA)
: [RESOLVED] 7/19 NA Ranked Disabled - Probably when you’re asleep
: They won't though because this isn't like Kog where they legit just messed with a champ that was already fine. Rengar still has the same issues he did before with becoming a tanky fighter or a toxic assassin. I think the thing that honestly needs to just go is his ultimate.
Revert completely, make him lose his ferocity stacks when ulting OR make his ult a global sound/not invisible. It really doesn't have to be made this hard.
: Thoughts on Rengar Revert
As an ADC main, I prefer to play vs the old Rengar, He didn't tank all damage and oneshot everyone.
  Rioter Comments
: The way you worded the post implies that Lucian is a problem but Ahri isn't If so then you're hilariously wrong because they both are, nice straw man you got there
> [{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MRwwcyZK,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-03-29T11:13:06.262+0000) > > The way you worded the post implies that Lucian is a problem but Ahri isn't > > If so then you're hilariously wrong because they both are, nice straw man you got there I'm not saying Ahri isn't too good right now. Fuck Ahri.
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: I only do it when I see people want champs that screw over the team comp hard, most of the time teemo top or yi jungles since most of them do nothing but play in their own world but demand to be ganked for, fed, and AFK farm Shaco is one of these as well. Adds little to teamfights but damage and most of the time never groups
> [{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q9IfqVlX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-29T16:02:22.620+0000) > > I only do it when I see people want champs that screw over the team comp hard, most of the time teemo top or yi jungles since most of them do nothing but play in their own world but demand to be ganked for, fed, and AFK farm That would be considered as toxic behavior AFAIK.
Quepha (NA)
: The answer to toxicity is not more toxic behavior.
> [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q9IfqVlX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-29T15:59:19.363+0000) > > The answer to toxicity is not more toxic behavior. So he got his champ that he wanted to play banned, and then the troll teammate says that Shaclone needs to dodge? Shaclone is absolutely right, next time they would just assume that he is gonna have to dodge so that doesn't work.
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: I'll ask you up front: with her current bases and ratios on the pbe, what do you think are the chances of tank Lb coming out of this?
> [{quoted}](name=LostFr0st,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y6tvAHo2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-30T12:46:48.558+0000) > > I'll ask you up front: with her current bases and ratios on the pbe, what do you think are the chances of tank Lb coming out of this? None, she's too squishy. She has the potential to become a very good champion, but what Riot needs to do is this: Right now it's 1.5 seconds throughout the game. In lane this is managable, but lategame this is really bad. What do you think about this idea: - At level 6 the passive delay is reduced from 1.5 seconds to 1.25 seconds - At level 11 the passive delay is reduced from 1.25 seconds to 1 second - At level 18 the passive delay is reduced from 1 second to 0.75 seconds.
Rioter Comments
: Show me. And prove that it was 5 solos vs them. Because that's what your post is about.
> [{quoted}](name=AvantelWings,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u8ivG8Ev,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-24T16:09:19.222+0000) > > Show me. > > And prove that it was 5 solos vs them. Because that's what your post is about. you can go look up my matches yourself, it doesn't tell anywhere that they were premade though but they always ahd the same club tag.
: haven't they fixed this?
> [{quoted}](name=Darf Rakki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u8ivG8Ev,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-09-24T16:37:15.606+0000) > > haven't they fixed this? yea if ur diamond+
: Or, you know, that fact that this so rarely happens it can be considered a non-issue?
> [{quoted}](name=AvantelWings,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u8ivG8Ev,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-09-24T15:36:36.931+0000) > > Or, you know, that fact that this so rarely happens it can be considered a non-issue? i've played 4 games today and 3 of them have been vs a 3-man or 4-man premade.
: Didn't you already post this?
> [{quoted}](name=AvantelWings,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u8ivG8Ev,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-09-24T15:20:08.075+0000) > > Didn't you already post this? was removed
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333 (EUNE)
: I'm from the future, I need to tell you something about Yasuo nerfs quick before it's too late!
Yes, I am aware of the fact that the bugs are making him even more overpowered than he would be, but fixing those won't be enough to get him down on tge ground again lol. Js.
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: Assassin Roster Update -- Talon Direction
What about Rengar? Will he still have his invisibility and burst? Please answer.
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: He's really strong, his ult does absurd damage, you can miss your abilities and kill the enemy mid with solely your ult.
> [{quoted}](name=FACE THE WlND,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EM2smepf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-11T16:51:09.656+0000) > > He's really strong, his ult does absurd damage, you can miss your abilities and kill the enemy mid with solely your ult. Says an Yasuo main.
: Jagex, nowadays, is an amazing company who listens to their customers. They even released 2007 runescape where updates are polled. The players decide.
> [{quoted}](name=superfire444,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyXimTOQ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-04-08T18:58:51.533+0000) > > Jagex actually is an amazing company who listens to their customers. They even released 2007 runescape where updates are polled. The players decide. But you can't deny they fucked up big time. They HAD to release 07 or the game woulda been rinsed.
: I don't think anyone wants that. I think what people want is Riot to not make absurdly terrible balance decisions that practically everyone told them would be terrible. See: Morde rework, Xin buffs, release Warlord's
> [{quoted}](name=Zenthon127,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyXimTOQ,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-04-08T18:30:55.860+0000) > > I don't think anyone wants that. I think what people want is Riot to not make absurdly terrible balance decisions that practically everyone told them would be terrible. > > See: Morde rework, Xin buffs, release Warlord's Yes, exactly. But how would they know what's terrible and what isn't if they never listen to the players?
Rioter Comments
: Rengar...
Don't forget that Shiv, Rfc, Deadmans don't proc on Rengars Q from leap nomore..
: Rengar Balance Idea
Lmfao this is one of the most ridicolous things I have ever heard. Removing his ability to jump from bush effectively kills the idea of the champion and lowers his skillcap by A TON. Removing his Ferocity effects? Sure, as long as we remove Lee's second parts on his skills. Such an idiotoc idea, I have never heard anything this stupid. Rengar currently has the worst winrate in normals and the 6th worst winrate in rankeds. Better gut him, eh? On a second hand, Riot did think he was toxic but now that he got nerfed all he is is buggy. Fixing his bugs will result in a perfect nerf to the cat, I'm talking about those massive nerfs in 6.2, yes, they would be fair. Now with the nerfs they definitely aren't fair. Coming from a Rengar main with about 350.000 points on him atm.
: Your Top 2 Mastery Ranked Champions Are Being Shipped
{{champion:107}} {{champion:35}} Is this bad?
: Dear champions, what are you proud of having?
{{champion:107}} Bugs, both spaghetti and purple one's
: Lol launcher isn't opening after the latest patch. ( 6.5 )
Got it fixed. You have to go to the Riot Games folder -> LoL -> RADS -> Projects and then delete lol_launcher
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