Midg3t (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=00090001000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-11T09:15:13.918+0000) > > There is a large gap between rank shaming and idiocy shaming. rank shaming is rank shaming no matter how you present it. But since you wanna call it "idiocy shaming" then pls explain to this miget looking-ass idiot why is he in the wrong to say the champ was strong for a long time now so her mains need to adjust to nerfs accordingly? > You are actually thinking that you know this game better, you play better and adapt better than pro or challenger players. Now this is a big fucking yikes. No I dont actually. I simply said the riven wasnt changed for a long time now, so when she got her nerfs, ofc mains will have to adjust. And you would have a point if riven got literally gutted. But she didnt. She had 1 or 2 nerfs on her numbers and thats it. And her winrate isnt bad either. Around 48% if i saw correctly? Giving that shes one of the most difficult champs to learn and master, thats a fairly reasonable number. So Viper calling her "dogshit" is just straight up exaggeration. > Stop talking to me, thanks. Dont involve yourself in a discussion if you dont want to discuss :)
> [{quoted}](name=Midg3t,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=000900010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-11T09:21:07.472+0000) > > rank shaming is rank shaming no matter how you present it. > But since you wanna call it "idiocy shaming" then pls explain to this miget looking-ass idiot why is he in the wrong to say the champ was strong for a long time now so her mains need to adjust to nerfs accordingly? Okay, I admit it I messed it up. I misread it first and thought you said the second part about Viper as someone "who rather bitch and moan then adapt". My bad. Sorry. >Some1 rly doesnt like what you typed xD You do?
Midg3t (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:39:40.117+0000) > > Stupid pro player don't know how to learn and adapt. He could learn one or two from gold elos like you. {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}} Imagine rank shaming some1 instead of making an argument...yikes While typing from a lvl 24 account xD And if he knows how to adapt he wouldnt complain about her. > And 6 years ago she had 51% win rate... does it have anything to do with her current state and the fact this guy is making false statements about it? It does. Before 9.16 patch he help 50+% winrate with 10% pickrate in dia+. So giving that, statistically speaking, she was rly strong for a long time now, she deserved some nerfs. But yea, god forbid the champ that has rly high skill celling drops a lil bit below 50% wr, I guess it's a "dogshit" champion lmao
> Imagine rank shaming some1 instead of making an argument...yikes There is a large gap between rank shaming and idiocy shaming. You are actually thinking that you know this game better, you play better and adapt better than pro or challenger players. Now this is a big fucking yikes. Stop talking to me, thanks.
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:27:15.236+0000) > > Okay, so you are ignorant or just a liar. There is not a single elo with at least 1000 played games where she has 50% or more for win rate. > plat+: 48.56%, diamond+: 48.96%, master+: 49.46%, low elo: 44.53% - 47.6% > > "Solid 50% win rate"... what a bullcrap. Lowest winrate at 45% on what's supposed to be a moderate/high skill cap champion? That's ridiculously high, especially considering that by this point her entire playerbase is used to her being bs op. How TF does a low elo player play an "overnerfed" champion the way they play an op champ and still do reasonably well? When this champion has an average of 48-49 percent winrate and 50% is basically considered peak balanced why would you buff her? Look at any other champion with a playerbase of reasonable size and varied skill and their low value shouldn't be that high when they got nerfed significantly.
> [{quoted}](name=Secretly a Phos,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=0009000000000002,timestamp=2019-09-11T01:12:17.134+0000) > > Lowest winrate at 45% on what's supposed to be a moderate/high skill cap champion? That's ridiculously high, especially considering that by this point her entire playerbase is used to her being bs op. > > > How TF does a low elo player play an "overnerfed" champion the way they play an op champ and still do reasonably well? > > > When this champion has an average of 48-49 percent winrate and 50% is basically considered peak balanced why would you buff her? > > Look at any other champion with a playerbase of reasonable size and varied skill and their low value shouldn't be that high when they got nerfed significantly. Who are you even talking to? I haven't said a word about her win rate being high or low, buffs or anything else . I said this guy used fake data. This board is so funny actually. Circlejerk without an end among hardstuck low elos, based on blindfold hate, random lies and fake statistics then they are butthurt when Riot treats them like clowns and ignores their biased ideas about balance.
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:27:15.236+0000) > > Okay, so you are ignorant or just a liar. There is not a single elo with at least 1000 played games where she has 50% or more for win rate. > plat+: 48.56%, diamond+: 48.96%, master+: 49.46%, low elo: 44.53% - 47.6% > > "Solid 50% win rate"... what a bullcrap. You said chellenger. I said the winrate to this level of play. Chellenger is 49.56 meaning closer to 50 meaning i can call it 50.
> [{quoted}](name=letsfeedtogether,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=0009000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:37:33.581+0000) > > You said chellenger. I said the winrate to this level of play. Chellenger is 49.56 meaning closer to 50 meaning i can call it 50. So you cherry picked an elo with 549 played games (which is statistically an irrelevant number) where she doesn't even have 50% win rate then you said she has a **solid ** 50% win rate based on that meanwhile completely ignored the other 476,000 played games that proves the opposite. Okay. LMAO Btw, I haven't said a word to you until now.
: > [{quoted}](name=Luminiferous Cat,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:11:00.395+0000) > > So I guess we just go with your theory and ignore that even her challenger mains are struggling to perform after the most recent nerfs. > > I think when Viper is calling her “dogshit” and dropping the champ then you know maybe they might have actually overnerfed her? She has a solid 50% win rate.
> [{quoted}](name=letsfeedtogether,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XQpAFbUh,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:18:54.053+0000) > > She has a solid 50% win rate. Okay, so you are ignorant or just a liar. There is not a single elo with at least 1000 played games where she has 50% or more for win rate. plat+: 48.56%, diamond+: 48.96%, master+: 49.46%, low elo: 44.53% - 47.6% "Solid 50% win rate"... what a bullcrap.
: People asked why Riven going to get buff sooner or later, Riot answer is Valiant Skin with prestige
Or maybe it is because she cannot reach 50% win rate even in challenger, so the best Riven otp-s are struggling with her now. Meanwhile braindead champions who stomp low elo with 54-55% (Riven has around 44% win rate in low elo) has easily 50% win rate in high elo as well.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: Damage scales faster and harder than defense.
I guess it is still better than the tank meta was. Until they don't tone down tanks' damage to be reasonable for a tank they cannot tone down the overall damage without risking a new tank meta.
: Why are manaless champs still a thing after so many seasons of league
Better question is: how can anyone complain about manaless champions when manabased champions can spam their abilities more than anyone in the game? (except {{champion:157}} ) Literally every first pick item for mages grants a billion mana with 20% cdr. With one item they can spam without an end with low cooldowns.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=FbKY00Gs,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-02T07:59:19.695+0000) > > She is far the best toplaner that is why she almost never played in pro play right? > > Now this is a perfect example for hate fueled by stupidity. > > Riven's win rates: > > bronze: 44.31% > silver: 45.93% > gold (your elo on this account): 47.3% > > Such high numbers, now wonder you have trouble to deal with this broken champion. > > So? She is fun to play. Also it is more challenging to master her than most of the champions. > > This type of comment usually comes from someone who starts insulting his enemy laner because his ass was kicked by him then comes to board and complains about how toxic that player was. Also if she is so easy than why don't you play her at all? Wait, let me guess. You are not in the mood. It is odd how those who say Riven is a no-skill champion never played her while they only play actually braindead point and click champions and lanebullies. What a coincidence. Ok her winrate in my elo is 52% what now :)
> [{quoted}](name=AlterMordred,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=FbKY00Gs,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-02T17:09:53.112+0000) > > Ok her winrate in my elo is 52% what now :) Idk. Maybe you learn to read someday? :) >Maintains high winrate** in all elos**
: OP, by your standard of definitions, it would only be random if *all* champions were unlocked in the mode for all players. If you're going to be that strict on wording.
> [{quoted}](name=sheldonbunny,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REbEvlOK,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-09-02T15:26:54.577+0000) > > OP, by your standard of definitions, it would only be random if *all* champions were unlocked in the mode for all players. If you're going to be that strict on wording. Then again. "Random" doesn't define the multitude itself, it defines how you get a unit out of it.
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REbEvlOK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-02T14:39:31.617+0000) > > No, it is not. When you directly decide what champion you want to play that is the opposite of randomness. If there was an option to get a champion randomly from bench then it would be somewhat random, however, choosing your champion on your own is never random, no matter how large or small the champion pool you are choosing from is. You are choosing a champion that was randomly selected and then discarded by other people. You are choosing from people's leftovers, you're not directly picking your champion from the roster of 140+. So those champions ARE STILL randomly selected at some point if they made their way to the bench.
> [{quoted}](name=Oleandervine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REbEvlOK,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-02T14:43:14.350+0000) > > You are choosing a champion that was randomly selected and then discarded by other people. You are choosing from people's leftovers, you're not directly picking your champion from the roster of 140+. So those champions ARE STILL randomly selected at some point if they made their way to the bench. You are directly picking from a smaller roster. Randomly picked isn't the same as directly picked from a smaller pool. It means you cannot decide what champion you will play at all. Everything that changes this is against randomness so bench, rerolls, swap, all of them. I think bench is over the healthy state. It results that everyone plays ranged poke champions in every game. I think rerolls was more than enough to avoid the most hated champions. Those who aren't willing to play anything else than Lux, Veigar, Vel'koz, etc. shouldn't play an all random mode. ARAM only accounts are more than enough to fuck up the balance of this game mode and Riot doesn't want to do anything against them.
: It's still random who you get. There are over 140 champions. Getting a possibility of 15 out of those 140 is _still random_, no matter where the remaining 10 champions are housed after you discard them.
No, it is not. When you directly decide what champion you want to play that is the opposite of randomness. If there was an option to get a champion randomly from bench then it would be somewhat random, however, choosing your champion on your own is never random, no matter how large or small the champion pool you are choosing from is.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=FbKY00Gs,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-02T07:59:19.695+0000) > > She is far the best toplaner that is why she almost never played in pro play right? > > Now this is a perfect example for hate fueled by stupidity. > > Riven's win rates: > > bronze: 44.31% > silver: 45.93% > gold (your elo on this account): 47.3% > > Such high numbers, now wonder you have trouble to deal with this broken champion. > > So? She is fun to play. Also it is more challenging to master her than most of the champions. > > This type of comment usually comes from someone who starts insulting his enemy laner because his ass was kicked by him then comes to board and complains about how toxic that player was. Also if she is so easy than why don't you play her at all? Wait, let me guess. You are not in the mood. It is odd how those who say Riven is a no-skill champion never played her while they only play actually braindead point and click champions and lanebullies. What a coincidence. I haven't played against on a Riven on this account this season. My problem is the fact they bend over backwards to appease her playerbase and constantly make sure she is strong (much like they do for ADC mains) while not giving a fuck about anything else.
> [{quoted}](name=M Schumacher,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=FbKY00Gs,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-02T08:29:04.491+0000) > > I haven't played against on a Riven on this account this season. My problem is the fact they bend over backwards to appease her playerbase and constantly make sure she is strong (much like they do for ADC mains) while not giving a fuck about anything else. That is just Riot. They fuck up countless things and as for toplane they cannot balance anything. I don't know why people hate only Riven for this. Anyway, we don't even know what the buff is. E.g. if they only reverted the E nerf it wouldn't be that terrible since almost every other toplaner was buffed in the meantime.
: Why do the boards have an unending hate-boner for Riven?
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=FbKY00Gs,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-02T04:50:54.121+0000) > > Why do the boards have an unending hate-boner for Riven? Because every hardstuck low elo thinks he is Faker and the two reasons he isn't rank 1 challenger yet are bad teammates and super op champions that are played only by the enemy laner. Since they are Faker they don't need to learn and improve.
mark6028 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEIvj4Jj,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2019-08-31T15:45:41.093+0000) > > I don't mind Riven getting buffs if they provide an actual counterplay to her. Right now the most I can do against her early is hoping she fucks up her lvl1/lvl2/whatever all-in and ends up getting too much minion agro to lose trade and be forced to back Riven never had any counterplay to begin with. The only counterplay riven ever has had was spacing. Correct spacing to make her waste her Q/E in attempts to getting in and then turn around and beat the shit out of her. That's the ONLY counterplay she ever had. At 40%CDR or 45% she just runs at you stunlocks you into a oneshot in 0,2seconds because that's the amount of time she needs to play out her entire kit if played properly. Well and maybe poking her down/going for short trades by basically statchecking because her health regen was trash but riot made sure to massively buff her health regen so she has no counterplay anymore.
Are you totally new to this game? If yes, then I know why your comment is full with false statements and obvious nonsense. Otherwise it is just a senseless rant.
: Riot said we have overnerfed riven. Well you actually overnerfed akali.
The two champions you are talking about had the exact same win rates in high elo in 9.16. Akali had a lot higher pick and ban rates. Now you are balming Riot for nerfing the one with higher pick and ban rates while you want to nerf the one with the less pick and ban rates. Just saying.
: She did get overnerfed. However don't buff her until the CDR dilemma is fixed for the love of god. Also don't get me started on how much free damage she gets from auto weaving from her Q.
What are the chances they don't buff a champion before its prestige skin comes out? They may actually overnerfed her directly so they can overbuff her for skin selling. Then they will overnerf her again and leave it that way. It happened this way so many times. Imo toplane is an overall mess. There is not a single champion that wouldn't need a nerf/buff/fix/rework.
: "Oh, she hit 48% in plat, time to buff her" The balance team, just needs to stop. Stop balancing Riven to have a 50% winrate in Plat and below, just stop. Her kit was being balanced around the best of the best, therefore she should have a 50 to 52% winrate in Grandmaster/Challenger and thats it.
> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEIvj4Jj,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-31T00:37:39.030+0000) > > "Oh, she hit 48% in plat, time to buff her" > The balance team, just needs to stop. Stop balancing Riven to have a 50% winrate in Plat and below, just stop. Her kit was being balanced around the best of the best, therefore she should have a 50 to 52% winrate in Grandmaster/Challenger and thats it. May I ask you why this logic only applies to Riven while Jax is allowed to have 57+% win rate in challenger?
: "In the case of Eve and Riven, we overnerfed them and wanted to follow up."
Riven haters would never admit that she is overnerfed even if her win rate would be 10% or something. There is no surprise there. Also there is no suprise the one who is bitching again never ever played Riven or toplane in his life so actually knows jackshit about how strong or weak the champion is. Anyway, she got double-nerfed recently because with her nerf they also buffed (almost) every single toplaner at the same time. Poppy (Riven's best counter) got buffed, Renekton (Riven's second best counter) got buffed, Jax and Fiora got buffed for no fucking reason, Kled got buffed, Darius is very strong for a long time now... so yeah, it was Riot idiocy. They couldn't wait for the effect of the buffs, they had to nerf simultaneously. Therefore she actually got overnerfed. She was the 5th worth toplaner in plat+ with 47-48% win rate in 9.16. Also don't forget she will get a prestige skin soon so it was obvious they will not leave her in dumpster.
Zerenza (NA)
: Help: I can't play Zoe.
You can find very detailed description about the best runes, strategy, gameplay for her on mobafire.
: > [{quoted}](name=Glamorous Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bbQxtfwH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-24T18:14:18.664+0000) > > Any champ with an energy/fury bar that can spam dashes that end in a stun are unbalanced imo. > Renekton's dash is bonkers. Rivens dashes are nuts. Yasuo stacking Qs can be insane. > Then the champions that are designed to counter the fighters are constantly nerfed. > > It's like if Riven isn't allowed to spike her full combo then whatever champ stopping her needs tuning? I agree with the resourceless champs and spamming. It's really unfair how others can spam because they don't have a resource to worry about while others do. Riven is no weak champ, having 4 dashes because q 3 times and e dash, having a knock up on the 3rd q, having a shield from e dash, having an aoe stun with w. And all of that cost no mana. It just really makes no sense why she uses no mana with abilities like that other than that maybe riot made her not use mana because her 3 qs will make her go oom too fast? Or going oom mid fight will stop her from doing combos? I have no idea.
Yes, because mana users have to worry about their mana so much. They cannot just spam their abilities like a r%%%%% after they bought their first item that gives them at least 900 mana and 20 cdr...
Antenora (EUW)
: Boards doesn't have a fucking clue on how to balance a game. Dusk is right. 99% of the posts about a champion are fueled by bias and rage because the person complaining has no idea how to beat the champion. Every champion in the game is beatable. If a champion wasn't beatable they'd have 100% win rates.   There's a reason why Riot never listens to people on these boards and it's pretty much what I said above.
It usually goes this way: 1. a champion gets a buff 2. boards say "don't do it, it will be broken" 3. Riot does it anyway 4. champion stomps in plat+ with 55%+ win rate 5. boards beg for nerf, Riot doesn't care 6. champions stomps in pro play 7. Riot nerfs it because "it seems this champion is a bit too strong now" 8. Riot nerfs the champion 3 more times (because it was actually so fucking broken) 9. champion gets gutted or achieve a relativly balanced state. My question: if boards are "fucking clueless" and Riot knows what they are doing then why it is happening this way? Because with the nerfs Riot essentially admits that the board was right and they fucked up. It also means the game was in a fucked up state for months because Riot didn't care. >If a champion wasn't beatable they'd have 100% win rates. False because it is still a teamgame and "gank it with 3 players" is still not a counterplay. When you have to decide your every move carefully and suffer all game under your turret while your opponent can play like shit but you still cannot punish him because his champion is so fucking broken then it doesn't matter if your team wins the game eventually because you had 0 fun. I don't know about you but I am still looking for fun in games.
: Or...More realistically, the boards have no fucking idea how to balance, and try to propose changes based on a few games or by parroting someone's rant. To prove my point, here's an excerpt from your post: > I am talking about major ones that influenced the whole game from iron 4 to pro play e.g. Akali, Irelia, etc. You say this, except reworked Akali was never a problem in Iron 4. Or Bronze 5, whichever was around then. Akali was **strictly** a high-tier (possibly only proplay) problem. The only thing Akali would have done to you is lost your promos when your teammates picked her.
The board is full of rant and shit, yes, however, it doesn't explain why Riot doesn't solve balance issues on its own. Also, rants usually just fade away, get downvoted. When something is upvoted to be a top conversation for a long time it usually has something meaningful to say and represents the opinion of not just one person but the community instead. My post isn't about why Riot doesn't listen to the boards though. They should have enough knowledge about their own game to do a good work without considering random players' opinion. Also it is not about certain champions either. I just randomly brought up some examples. As I mentioned, everyone can have their own examples because this game is full with them. If you conveniently ignore everything that is unexplainable stupidity from Riot and want to find something that is questioning my competency feel free to do it. It still has nothing to do with the post. Not to mention saying that Akali was fine just because nooby noobs couldn't play with her is a questionable argument from your part. You want to tell me Akali, Irelia, Vayne, etc. were not broken? Okay, then why did Riot nerfed them? If balance was okay in this game then they wouldn't make trillion patches. They need to do it because they constantly (and intentionally) fuck up the balance. Anyway, you just proved my point from an other perspective: it is pointless to make threads about balance issues.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: When Lee sin and Riven allowed with Conquer to one shot squishy and yet Wukong don't get any buff
>taking over Low and High elo Riven's win rate is 44-46%, Lee's win rate is 46-47% in low elo, absolute takeover. >allowed with Conquer to one shot squishy Yes, conqueror is a rune for one shot, that is why it has a 5 attack activation time.
Pyrosan (NA)
: Riven's finally getting nerfed
I am looking forward to it. All the players who refused to learn the matchup have to find another excuse for being bad.
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAhecANk,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-08-03T15:36:19.583+0000) > > If she gets on you from that range it means she burnt all of her abilities to get there so there is nothing left to oneshot you or even damage you besides her slow aa. yeah, except she had 3-5 seconds on Q, and cd start when she uses first Q not third Q, so when she will use third Q the cd will come back 90% of time and she will just Q again, not to mention her Q cd even got buffed, which appreantly you do not want to acknoweldge as reallity and just bitch about her 2 seconds nerf on E.
> [{quoted}](name=Garen is adopted,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAhecANk,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-04T19:24:53.549+0000) > > yeah, except she had 3-5 seconds on Q, and cd start when she uses first Q not third Q, so when she will use third Q the cd will come back 90% of time and she will just Q again, not to mention her Q cd even got buffed, which appreantly you do not want to acknoweldge as reallity and just bitch about her 2 seconds nerf on E. Dude, how about 1. try to comprehend what you just read, 2. try to think before you comment? He said something like "Riven can jump on him from Caitlyn's range" which is bs in the first place but whatever. If she closes gap like that she uses all of her dashes at the same time so it will on full cd after the spam. If she doesn't do that and extends her q-s like you said then she cannot cover that distance and jump on a squishy range champion like he said since she has to wait and walk around to extend her q-s, lower her original cooldown on it. If she manages to land an extended 3rd q then yes she can q again but if a squishy ranged champion is within range of her extended 3rd q then that player is an idiot. It is really not that hard to understand this but honestly I don't care anymore. I am fed with the idiocy spreading on this board.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: >No it doesn't mean it yet still give us a better picture about a matchup than win rate that includes hundreds of different elements that has nothing to do with the matchup. yes you're right, pantheon counters literally everything in the game :^) and you clearly have an idea how averages and statistics work > balancing of a champion on 0.1% of the playerbase while balancing other champions based on 80% of the played games something like invoker, riven, azir and ryze should never be good for 80% of the player base, if you think otherwise you have no idea how anything works. what you're suggesting is that garen should have a 10% wr in challenger and riven should have 90% because you want to be able to have a decent wr on riven without getting good. >A good Riven never beats a very good Renekton https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWBRp-U-WEc here's a good example for you, one of the best rivens vs one of the best renektons, its insane how much early pressure the renekton has on the riven right? >This is the most iron4 bullshit someone can say. so basically you're a silver player and don't think you can learn riven combos in 20 hours of grinding them? lmao
A player who was challenger in his whole life and usually in top 10 (currently rank 2) vs a guy who was diamond in his whole life and managed to peak into grandmaster once is a good example for you for a good Riven vs very good Renekton matchup. LMAO Actually it perfectly fits to your arguments. You are just so fcking clueless it actually hurts my brain. If you say you can master Riven within a day or two then just do it. Even Adrian has to practice the combos over and over again to perfrom them perfectly in a ranked game even though he has been playing Riven for years at the highest level. But you know better than him, you who never played Riven in you life. Holy shit, your are full of garbage. I am done with this conversation.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: >Thanks to your "balancing" method. that's not my "balancing method" I told you mechanically intensive champions should be balanced around people with great mechanics and mechanically simple champions should be balanced around low skill players. this is to avoid shit like garen roflstomping low elo and shit like azir being absolutely broken in high elo, the reason you can't balance azir for people that can't play azir is because then people at high elo are stuck with the monstrosity that you created. this is a problem because if you're a low elo champion and you want to play azir you can just "git gud" but if you're a high elo player azir balanced around low elo will have 0 counterplay. you can switch this argument on its head and see what would happen to garen if it was balanced around skilled play like you want riven to be balanced around low elo. >Does win rate show which champion won lane in a 1v1 matchup? No it doesn't. I don't think you understand matchups mate, not being ahead in lane doesn't mean its a losing matchup for you or kog'maw would ever only have losing matchups in the game and be garbage. something like pantheon being ahead of nasus in lane doesn't mean that pantheon counters nasus. >I can 0/10 in my every game yet carried by a superior botlane. yes and one guy getting lucky will absolutely have a massive impact on the statistics taken out of 100s of thousands of games, are you stupid? >Since when is it an issue if the better player beats the worse? its not a "better player beats worse" its a "very good riven beats a very good renekton" which tells us that rene doesn't counter riven but its just an issue with the rivens skill.
> I don't think you understand matchups mate, not being ahead in lane doesn't mean its a losing matchup for you or kog'maw would ever only have losing matchups in the game and be garbage. something like pantheon being ahead of nasus in lane doesn't mean that pantheon counters nasus. No it doesn't mean it yet still give us a better picture about a matchup than win rate that includes hundreds of different elements that has nothing to do with the matchup. > yes and one guy getting lucky will absolutely have a massive impact on the statistics taken out of 100s of thousands of games, are you stupid? I am not the one who wants to base the balancing of a champion on 0.1% of the playerbase while balancing other champions based on 80% of the played games. I may be stupid but I definitely know a lot more about statistics than you do. Also I am not the one who said Fiora is the only melee champ who wins the matchup against Riven. > its not a "better player beats worse" its a "very good riven beats a very good renekton" which tells us that rene doesn't counter riven but its just an issue with the rivens skill. A good Riven never beats a very good Renekton, you are simply don't know what you are talking about. >animation cancels and combos but everyone can hone those out in a day or 2 This is the most iron4 bullshit someone can say. Without checking your profile or anything I am sure now you have never played Riven in your life.
Rhaykko (EUW)
: Ever heard of 45% cdr Riven?
> [{quoted}](name= Rhaykko,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAhecANk,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-03T19:45:22.833+0000) > > Ever heard of 45% cdr Riven? Nope. I've never heard that Riven can start the game with 45% cdr. As far as I know she has to play well in lane against an other champion in order to get enough gold to buy it.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: >So a skill based champion's win rate - and balance based on that - should not be judged by how the better half of the playerbase play the champion? yes a champion should be balanced around the players who can actually play the champion so for riven about the top 0,1% of the ladder, cause ya know, if you don't do that the champions will be absolutely insane at competent hands. >Poppy funny way of saying that riven has a 54% wr in the matchup in even diamond which includes deadass d4 riven players, hell even in your plat+ the matchup is riven favored. >Renekton I mean the shieldbreak did make this matchup pretty good for rene, he still loses when the riven player is actually good though.
> yes a champion should be balanced around the players who can actually play the champion so for riven about the top 0,1% of the ladder, cause ya know, if you don't do that the champions will be absolutely insane at competent hands. Let's imagine what would happen if they ballance all champions around the best 0,1%. I guess balance means 50% win rate so we are aiming for that. According to challenger datas from 9.14 Riven needs a huge nerf. It would make her only playable by the best of the best, even for them it would be a coinflip to play her. Since her win rate in low elo is 45-46% now (9.14) it would make her unplayable. Her win rate would be around 15% at first then 0% because noone would ever play a champion that is hard to play properly yet it is so weak that any braindead champion can beat it easily. Why would anyone practice a lot and suffer all the time instead of playing a super easy champion? Meanwhile, there is Master Yi for example. Needs 0 skill to play since he has only one ability that has any interaction with other champions and even that ability is a point and click one. He is arguably the most braindead champion in the game. His win rate in low elo is around 53-54% but we are balancing around the best 0,1% in high elo of course. His win rate in challenger is 33%, barely played, in master it is 45%. So we have to tremendously buff him to reach 50% win rate there because that would be the balanced state you say. Result: 90% win rate with 100% pick rate in low elo. All in all, we would have a never played skill based champion with 0% win rate and a braindead champion with 90% win rate. Thanks to your "balancing" method. > funny way of saying that riven has a 54% wr in the matchup in even diamond which includes deadass d4 riven players, hell even in your plat+ the matchup is riven favored. You really should play the matchup as Riven once. Does win rate show which champion won lane in a 1v1 matchup? No it doesn't. Not even close. It shows which team won the game. I can 0/10 in my every game yet carried by a superior botlane. My champion's win rate will increase while the champion who stomped me will fall in winrate. This is why win rate means almost nothing out of content despite the board acts like it is the one and only truth. Do you think Adrian Riven (rank 2 in NA) said that a low elo Poppy player can beat a high elo Riven player (that is how unbalanced that matchup now) because he is not good enough with Riven? > I mean the shieldbreak did make this matchup pretty good for rene, he still loses when the riven player is actually good though. Since when is it an issue if the better player beats the worse? I think if a better player couldn't win no matter how well he plays that would be the unbalanced state, not the other way around.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: using plat+ for a """high skillcap""" champion is fucking mental mate, also implying that poppy beats riven at any stage of the game is challenged, rene does beat her early but its still a losing matchup for rene.
> [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAhecANk,comment-id=0002000100000001,timestamp=2019-08-03T16:16:44.296+0000) > > using plat+ for a """high skillcap""" champion is fucking mental mate, also implying that poppy beats riven at any stage of the game is challenged, rene does beat her early but its still a losing matchup for rene. So a skill based champion's win rate - and balance based on that - should not be judged by how the better half of the playerbase play the champion? You are right, it is mental.XD Also do not come up with random statements I never said. Renekton and Poppy are heavy counters for Riven, this is a fact. If you don't believe me ask any challenger top player, riven player, or anyone who ever played toplane in his life. Both of them can beat her and deny her in laning phase easily if the player has both hands. Saying that Riven "doesn't lose a single melee matchup besides fiora" is totally senseless. Not to mention Fiora is not even a bad matchup for Riven.
: "slow aa" not slow enough that she cant auto weave in q. And by the time shes blown everything on you shes just gonna press r2 and delete the rest of your lifebar.
> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAhecANk,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-03T15:41:34.155+0000) > > "slow aa" not slow enough that she cant auto weave in q. And by the time shes blown everything on you shes just gonna press r2 and delete the rest of your lifebar. What? You just said that she jumps on you from a long distance which is only possible if she spams her q+e. Therefore there is no q combo only her slow aa-s like I said. Btw are you fighting with and ulted Renekton or Nasus? You cannot survive that either.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: she has a 54% wr and doesn't lose a single melee matchup besides fiora, there's your argument.
> [{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAhecANk,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-08-03T15:16:32.438+0000) > > she has a 54% wr and doesn't lose a single melee matchup besides fiora, there's your argument. She has 51.01% win rate based on 30,678 games in plat+. Also saying that Riven doesn't lose to Renekton or Poppy is pretty funny.
: does she need a ranged attack if she can get on to you and oneshot you from a range equivalent to caitlyn aa range in a matter of 3 seconds
> [{quoted}](name=RadeticDraws,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAhecANk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-08-03T14:58:11.903+0000) > > does she need a ranged attack if she can get on to you and oneshot you from a range equivalent to caitlyn aa range in a matter of 3 seconds If she gets on you from that range it means she burnt all of her abilities to get there so there is nothing left to oneshot you or even damage you besides her slow aa.
: How dare you imply riven needs a nerf! Just because she has hyper mobility, 2 forms of CC, high damage, defence scaling with AD, great itemization path, players regularly has no issue getting into challenger, has a high play rate and win rate, and just to top it off has an AoE execute ult Completely balanced
> [{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAhecANk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-03T13:38:10.455+0000) > > How dare you imply riven needs a nerf! > > Just because she has hyper mobility, 2 forms of CC, high damage, defence scaling with AD, great itemization path, players regularly has no issue getting into challenger, has a high play rate and win rate, and just to top it off has an AoE execute ult > > Completely balanced OMG Riven has abilities. Do you have an actual argument or you can just list a champion abilities? Becasue that can be done for every champion. E.g."Darius has aoe damage, 2 forms of cc, bleeding effect on his attacks, inbuilt sustain, able to execute multiple champions at the same time.... completely balanced."
: Can something be done with Riven already
Your complaining about items and a rune then your conclusion is "nerf Riven". Also too much mobility for what? For not having a single range attack? Or for fighting against other toplaners who also have high mobility and dashes? And OMG yes, Riven can kill a squishy champion with her ult... how unbalanced. Btw, she was nerfed a few patches ago, where have you been? This thread makes no sense.
FSRER (EUNE)
: Ah the always valid point of winrates. Because Darius loses to Kled does not mean he is overpowered or anything. Kled is a champion that can easily punish you for making mistakes and that is his laning phase. If you know what damage he can deal you will easily win lane without much effort. And since his biggest strength is early and then late game, if you ruin his early game, he will be significantly weaker later on. All in all, playing smart will win your lane vs Kled
> [{quoted}](name=FSRER,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hmceiEEi,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-08-03T10:37:44.053+0000) > > Ah the always valid point of winrates. Because Darius loses to Kled does not mean he is overpowered or anything. Kled is a champion that can easily punish you for making mistakes and that is his laning phase. If you know what damage he can deal you will easily win lane without much effort. And since his biggest strength is early and then late game, if you ruin his early game, he will be significantly weaker later on. > All in all, playing smart will win your lane vs Kled Kled's win rate is 55.18% in master+, so I guess the best players don't know how to play smart, you have to teach them. Also "ruin his early game" is a brilliant advice when we're talking about a lane bully. Kled is OP and needs a nerf. Riot reaction time is pretty bad as always but they will definitely nerf him since he is way above that line ther're always talking about.
Rioter Comments
: Pyke needs to lose either his anti-poke or anti-catch abilities.
I just played Pyke for the first time yesterday. What I noticed first is: why does he have an indicator for his execution? Does Darius have it to show him when he can get the kill 100%? Does Riven has an indicator when wind slash kills her opponent 100%? Does Riot think only braindead people are playing Pyke or what? Why the fuck does he have a stupidproof indicator in his kit for his execution while other champions do not? How is this fair or makes sense anyway? It is part of a player's skill / game knowledge to know when to use his ult and how...or it should be.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: if we are balancing around high elo, then high elo stompers should not exist. end of story. if this game is balanced nothing should be at NEAR 60% winrate constantly.
> if we are balancing around high elo, then high elo stompers should not exist. end of story. if this game is balanced nothing should be at NEAR 60% winrate constantly. Okay, then nerf Urgot 60.53%, Olaf 58%, Gankplank 56.52%, Gnar 55.17%, Darius 55,15%, Cho'Gath 54.55%, Fiora 54.29%, Sylas 53.97% in challenger. They are definitely high elo stompers around 60% win rate therefore they need to be nerfed hard by your logic. Also nerf Cassiopeia 60.95%, Ornn 55.97%, Rengar 54.78% in grandmaster and Nasus 57.33%, Neeko 54.79% in master. Essentially every fucking champion who dares to come at toplane because all of them have very high win rates in high elo. Nice logic my friend.
Exin0 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Stwessed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PAZQxGpm,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-24T04:53:32.987+0000) > > That isn't data that is possible to show where showing where he got the insanely high numbers is possible. Just watch high elo streams if you see a Riven you will likely be seeing a known Riven OTP on her and not much of anyone else. Ok let say you are right and she is played only by otp then we have another problem. Champion should not by reaching insanely high numbers in that elo especially when is facing most likely another OTP and with same skill level, this alone is another big red flag. Freelo in highest echelons of game and doing quite good in others ranks, like what else she must have to for you admit she is problem?
> [{quoted}](name=Exin0,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PAZQxGpm,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-24T07:12:39.183+0000) > > Ok let say you are right and she is played only by otp then we have another problem. Champion should not by reaching insanely high numbers in that elo especially when is facing most likely another OTP and with same skill level, this alone is another big red flag. Freelo in highest echelons of game and doing quite good in others ranks, like what else she must have to for you admit she is problem? Why should't? It is perfectly normal if a champion that falls off hard in low elo and takes a lot of practice to master has a strong state in high elo where good players can utilize its strengths. It is no different from the early game champions vs late game champions debate. Otherwise how could you say there is balance in the game when braindead champions stomp low elo hard? Master Yi has 53.53% win rate in iron and similar in bronze. Is it not "freelo"? Which champion is worse for the ranking system: Riven, who has low win rate in low elo and you have to be a good player to climb with her; or Master Yi, who needs 0 skill to play with therefore every noob can climb with him easily and get to ranks where they don't belong? Tell me which is more unhealthy and against the global balance? So many Garen otps come to these boards and cry about Riven being unbalanced. It is funny asf because they didn't cry that much when they played at low ranks and easily won with a braindead champion that needs 0 skill just like Yi. They didn't come and cry about how safe and op Garen is when they stomped Riven 10/10. However, after they reached the rank where skillful players can utilize Riven's potential they just got shit on. That is the point when they suddenly start to care about balance. If someone climbs with a braindead champion which can be mastered in a week then shouldn't be surprised if that champion falls behind in higher ranks where good players can play hard champions properly. That is actually fair and balanced even if they cry a river about it. Besides, Master Yi's win rate in bronze based on 96,523 matches while Riven's win rate in master+ based on 1,648 matches. Tell me which statistic is more relevant and shows the champion's state more reliably.
wolvius (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=8Belthazor8,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PAZQxGpm,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-07-23T21:21:37.593+0000) > > What I like the most is how trustworthy people and their opinion are. Mr. Argonaut opens a thread about "the state of riven" then he starts it with misleading statistics. Riven's actual win rate is 51.7% in plat+ which is a relevant statistic unlike the wildly fluctuating numbers of a separated rank which was used in the OP. > > Secondly, I was wondering how it is not a "state of Kled" post since Kled is busted broken now. His win rate 53.28% in toplane and 56.07% in midlane, both plat+. His win rate is beyond 52% in every single rank silver+, which means even nooby noobs stomp their elo with Kled now, he is so op. Guess what? He is abusing Kled. > > All in all, he is bitching about a skill-based champion with 51.7% win rate while he is abusing an easy champion with 53.28% win rate. > > Spineless. Shame on you. I think OP is using stats for master+ from u.gg which has riven as 55% winrate 11% pickrate, kinda annoying for him to say winrate without specifying where from. Kled is broken few would deny it, they should either reduce his grievous to 40% or maybe 20,30,40% percent based on champ level, randomly sticking a more powerful executioners on a champ is stupid particularly in a lane that has most of its champion relying on some form of inbuilt sustain (Darius q, aatrox e passive, renekton Q's) _and also most common conqueror lane._
Whatever he is using it is BS. Reliable statistics are based on high numbers. Plat+ statistics are based on more than 66, 000 games while in master+ it is less than 1,500. Using statistics in order to mislead people intentionally is the same as lying from my point of view.
: the state of riven
What I like the most is how trustworthy people and their opinion are. Mr. Argonaut opens a thread about "the state of riven" then he starts it with misleading statistics. Riven's actual win rate is 51.7% in plat+ which is a relevant statistic unlike the wildly fluctuating numbers of a separated rank which was used in the OP. Secondly, I was wondering how it is not a "state of Kled" post since Kled is busted broken now. His win rate 53.28% in toplane and 56.07% in midlane, both plat+. His win rate is beyond 52% in every single rank silver+, which means even nooby noobs stomp their elo with Kled now, he is so op. Guess what? He is abusing Kled. All in all, he is bitching about a skill-based champion with 51.7% win rate while he is abusing an easy champion with 53.28% win rate. Just because a better player kicked his ass in a game. Shame on him.
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8Belthazor8

Level 24 (EUNE)
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