: I think its because they don't wanna oversaturate the item. Although I would love a tank version of generalist, expensive, always good items like {{item:3078}} or {{item:3071}} But that's specifically what riot is trying to avoid "caus ma offense must outscale defense" Yet we have champions who are balanced around scaling infinitly on defensive stats....{{champion:31}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:412}}
If they would buff only its Armor and Crit Damage reduction it would still maintain its niche. And while the guys you mentioned do scale infinitely, 2 of them have an initial deficit, making them scale to catch back in stats and then finally start to outscale people, while the last one has to execute champions with his ult in order to gain stacks, which is a pretty slow process. {{champion:412}} gains no Armor per lvl while {{champion:14}} has a really low health pool from what I remember.
Sukishoo (NA)
: Prestige Caitlyn Splash updated!
Well, I guess we already had broken back, why not also get a broken neck xD
I3Iame (EUW)
: Discovered an OP build on Diana
I saw some Diana players using Phase rush for Movement Speed, and it is pretty nice since it easily procs from small combos like R-W-Q. But yeah, your build is great at splitpushing and Dueling. The only problem is that Rod of Ages is a slow, scaling item that significantly delays your Mid Game powerspike.
: What is the best course of action if your lane is doing well and all other lanes are feeding?
Yeah, basically what JetRam said. Roaming and assisting your teammates is your best choice. I actually used to play a lot of {{champion:4}} and there were always match-ups where my opponent would have the upper hand in lane, but I always roamed, resulting in my team being ahead while the opponents had only the mid laner keeping up in gold/exp. Basically, winning your lane doesn't mean anything if you can't apply pressure on the map or help your team. You would make only one person behind, while the rest of your team may or may not lose. If you want to have more control over what is happening, you have to assist your team more.
Ludicol0 (NA)
: morde is balanced as he is you guys are just bad and haven't adjusted to fighting him yet
Where did I even suggest that he has to be nerfed? I just stated there are other ways to balance him outside of base stats. I haven't even faced him and you tell me that I'm crying about him being OP and call me bad? Like really? Idk why people feel the need to be aggressive, especially when the only things I suggest are alternatives to his hotfix nerfs, which already happened btw.
DUDE BRO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ZapFreeMan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=76RUjcl3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-18T05:51:49.076+0000) > > In morde's case they didn't even nerf his ult. Just lowered his base stats. His kit isn't really overbearing Because his ult IS his base stats. How would they nerf his ult? it's just a 1v1. Nerf morde and his ult is nerfed too.
They could increase the area so that the opponents have more time to run/avoid Morde. That, or lower its duration. Not saying they are the best approaches, but they can be easily used for balancing his 1v1 aspect.
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QxoiAVEo,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-06-18T11:10:07.017+0000) > > > > Can we start to admit that maybe this VGU wasn't great, You really think so? Look Riot have been making a lot of great champions but they are so broken in proplay. Proplay is ruining the game. I swear to God if not for proplay, you wouldn't see champions such as Galio, Akali, Ryze, Azir, Tahm Kench being so miserable at the thir current state. Edit: typos (dman you auto correct)
Some of them would be busted even outside of Pro Play, since they are High Skill cap champs. They simply give too many tools that can easily be abused by experienced players.
: > [{quoted}](name=SEKAI,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QxoiAVEo,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-06-18T14:31:57.337+0000) > > If Galio was so actually beloved, he wouldn't be the 2nd least picked champ only beating PRE-REWORK URGOT. > > Fact is, nobody wants pre-rework Galio, and you mostly likely wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole even if he were to be reverted tomorrow. > > You just whine about rework and revert because you know nothing about Galio and how utterly bad his pre-rework kit was. So? His pick rate was only low because he was a niche champ that was a counter to high AP teams, as well as he wasn't as flashy as the new champions they released. Just because he doesn't have all the silver bells and whistles doesn't mean he's not a good champ. I would be playing him every damn game if he was reverted, so don't assume things that aren't true. And still assuming I see. I know a lot about Galio and his pre-rework kit was just fine besides high mana costs. He had fun and unique spells, a nice gargoyle identity, and overall a well created champion unlike some of the newest releases these days (Pyke, Sylas, Neeko). Anyway, he just needed a little power moved around to have lower costs and he would've been fine. So, be respectful next time when arguing your points, thank you.
While brought in a not-so-nice manner, he/she does bring some points. His Play Rate was abysmal because he was mostly played by few dedicated mains. Most of the reworks Riot makes have the goal to increase the popularity of champions, even when they would come at the cost of the playerbase. I sympathise with you, since a lot of the reworks they made don't really connect with me as much as the old versions, even if they are theoretically very successful ones. Maybe I am a dinosaur :^)
: I agree. It seems like people complain about all the reworked champions post-VGU more than they did with the champ originally. Plus almost every rework that Riot does feels like it was made by someone who doesn't get why the original champion was so beloved. As someone who enjoys playing Volibear jungle, I am already saddened knowing that my jungle main will be completely altered both in the way he plays and his appearance within the next year. The concept art was pretty concerning personally too. Seems like the people at Riot envision Volibear as some huge hulking edgy bear with weapons jabbed into his back and all scarred up. I don't play Voli because he's edgy, I play him because he's a giant fluffy bear.
The main reason VGUs are a thing is to make more people interested in those characters at the expense of losing some long time mains. This should have been clear long ago when they reworked Karma to this bland version that needs to be overturned in order to be competitive with other more unique characters. Remember Lee Sin rework? Since he was a popular champ and his player base cried at Riot, they didn't continue it. Not many champs have that luxury.
: He was op in pro play at the time so they had to start the downward spiral of ruining/nerfing him repeatedly.
Yeah, he was strong enough to rush whatever he wanted, I remember seeing one Galio rushing Sunfire vs a Mage (I don't say he shouldn't be able to do that, just that he didn't seem to have any risks in coordinated play).
FireDrizzle (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QxoiAVEo,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-06-18T16:00:44.181+0000) > > Or simply rework him so he has some sentience of his old self in the kit. He's missing MR ratios and the ability to build half tank half AP. Other than Malphite i'm not sure what is viable half tank half ap. Everything is either glass cannon, full tank or just tanky enough 1 guy wont 1 shot it.
> [{quoted}](name=FireDrizzle,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QxoiAVEo,comment-id=000700000001,timestamp=2019-06-18T16:20:06.847+0000) > > Other than Malphite i'm not sure what is viable half tank half ap. Everything is either glass cannon, full tank or just tanky enough 1 guy wont 1 shot it. Debatably {{champion:32}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:50}} sometimes build both, but as you said, not many champs have success building both.
: > [{quoted}](name=FSRER,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GuAdjnLO,comment-id=00040000000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-17T16:37:32.072+0000) > > And everyone alongside toplane mains, despites those champions and begs riot to nerf them Top laners will complain about anything thats ranged and that they have a hard time getting close to.
I think he talked about Camille and Irelia in particular, not Mages. The point is that everyone hates those two, even Top Laners.
PB4UAME (NA)
: Riven is a skirmisher, which is a subclass of Slayer, and so she isn't a bruiser at all. . . Irelia is a hybrid diver/skirmisher, so only partially a bruiser, partially a slayer. Even so, you can have the average of a class be weak, like oh ({{champion:86}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:114}} who are all not doing well ATM, all of which have a lower than 50% winrate in platinum+, all of whom are bruisers) despite a few picks being decent or strong.
You say {{champion:92}} is a skirmisher (and not a bruiser), yet you mention {{champion:114}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:79}} (and some of them aren't even played as Bruisers...). And just by checking stats on u.gg, I see that most of your picks hover around 50% Win Rate in Plat+, some of them on the positive side and actually very few of them have their delta higher than 1% (like Garen, who has 51.39% Win Rate atm). So I don't really see how they are supposed to be weak when most of the "weak" picks are actually around 50% Win Rate. There are significantly many champions that have way worse of a Win Rate than this...
: you cant beat him in a 1v1 so you cant split as he defeats taht purpose. you cant hit the turret and you cant beat his W pASSIVE heal.
You force him to camp your lane and you will inevitably get some stacks (at a much slower rate). The idea isn't to duel him, it is to keep him in place and let your team 4v4 or make him lose CS under tower until you scale enough to beat him. If you can't duel him for most of the game and he is better in Teamfights, then at least keep him occupied or make him lose gold.
Salron (NA)
: Jensen, Doublelift, ICU and Forest (Challenger players weigh in on NB3 vs Teemo "support"
I don't know if he deserved to be banned (maybe he should have received a warning before, unless he already got one), but his strategy clearly isn't working, having a 48% Win Rate over 400 games (which is huge enough sample to prove that the strat simply doesn't work). If the rumours are true that he uses this strat only when some streamer is in-game and he plays normally when there isn't, then he actively sabotages those games. I expect that he has a much lower Win Rate with that strat than when he plays normally, making his WR seem normal, when it is actually stabilised by his normal games. And this has been discussed thousands of times before (when Tyler1 was perma-banned): if a streamer is more toxic than the other, neither of them are excused for their actions. Riot said they tracked this guy for months, which means that many other players were actually complaining about him. If more people reported NB3, I bet he would be in the very same situation.
: Yeah he is. The problem is that even if you can shove, once you extend past a certain point he can just chase you down. And since you Max E, you only have good all-in damage and he can just disengage any of your all-ins. Like I said, I still think the E max would be better because it’d at least create pressure. But it would come at the expense of my scaling, and it would make the game be dependent upon my team - which is what I try to avoid depending on.
Fair enough. I agree with you that Tahm is a pain and that the E-Max play style relies greatly on how your teammates play around you. I hope Riot will consider looking at him again.
: > [{quoted}](name=Myrmiron,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cZRcdIV5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-06-15T09:34:28.167+0000) > > Should have gone E max and push that fucker in. In hindsight it’s what I’ll have to do. But it means I’ll just make myself useless by 20 minutes too. E max basically admits you won’t farm Q until 40+, and most games don’t go thy long.
If you E max, wouldn't split pushing be the best strat? If you can't contribute in teamfights, at least force someone to camp you. And I don't think Tahm will be as bad once you get some items.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nerf Qiyana,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NA7tchIA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-14T13:23:25.210+0000) > > Yup, don't you love it when a full armor champ casually outdamages and takes down half of your health while you can't move an inch? Or he gets a Wit's End and magically doesn't die to your Thornmail? Ye man, I love it. (Killme)
Why build Thornmail vs Tahm tho? He deals mostly Magic Damage... And Thornmail is only good when you stack Armor or have lots of Armor from your kit (like Rammus or Malph). Otherwise, its damage is very low...
KazKaz (OCE)
: As well as Q and R's hitboxes not matching their visual indicators at all, especially with certain skins (*cough*Steel Legion *cough*).
That skin should be fixed, I remember it was even banned from Pro Play a long time go.
: You cant talk about true hybrid damage assassins without bringing up {{champion:76}} as well. Her cat form build was probably the closest we had to a female AD assassin for a long freakin time.
That was more of a Bruiser build if I remember right. Things like {{item:3153}} and {{item:3078}} were her core items.
: Since when was Quinn considered an assassin?
Since Lethality became a thing imo.
fifek900 (EUNE)
: in what world is ignite powercreeped over tp? TP is one the most powerful map pressence spells and its much more versitile than ignite is. Ignite got its damage gutted by 10 level and 95 level 18 but got its cooldown shortened by 30s. Ignite is the most useful in laning phase where that damage matters more than cooldown in securing kills. Not only that but also during LCS no one but supports and very few times midlaners took it. Most mids run tp, but sure ignite is so much better
> [{quoted}](name=fifek900,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UwBxLl5T,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-06-10T22:40:03.000+0000) > Ignite got its damage gutted by 10 level and 95 level 18 but got its cooldown shortened by 30s. If you check Ignite's patch history, you will see that the Damage nerf is a revert to its previous numbers. Everyone complained about Ignite and Riot decided to revert it and lower its CD on top of it.
: It's the worst. Like I don't want to pick a Rune that doesn't synergize with my playstyle (Malzahar a Damage over Time focused Mage). But only 2 Runes that work well with DoT are still mediocre. I've been running Dark Harvest on Malzahar because running an Enchanter based Rune (Aery) just doesn't feel right. Like what the hell am I going to be shielding with it lol? Those other DoT Mages who are still using Aery, are essentially using half of the Runes total power.
The idea behind taking Aery on DoT champions is that they proc it multiple times with one ability and they can throw Aery continuously at opponents. And don't get me wrong, but Dark Harvest is only worth on very few champions. You'd be better with other Runes for damage, including Aery, which isn't as bad as people say.
EdgeLady (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Anu3isII,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3E8K4XYs,comment-id=0000000000030000,timestamp=2019-06-10T20:07:41.341+0000) > > Didn't he inherit magical powers somehow? Or was it retconned? > > I actually think Graves is one of the closest to a normal person. Besides his gun and experience in fighting, he seems pretty normal. No champions are "normal"; they're all important in the world in some way or other. I'd take a look at the magic system thread next door to know more. Though there are several champions like Graves who aren't on that level of "I have X amount of godly power look at me go", which I guess you could put TF into too, though he has a minimal level of magic confirmed.
I know no champions are normal, that is why I was pointing out his fighting experience and his weapon after all. However, Graves doesn't seem to have any magical powers or outstanding traits that make him inhumanly powerful. He seems the type of person who trained hard and accumulated experience to become what we see today. And about TF, he may not be the most powerful mage, but he does have some feats that are above the average mage. Based on Burning Tides, with his cards he can teleport where he wants to go by just picturing the place (and makes cards explode, but that isn't that amazing). Overall, I don't say TF is godlike in terms of power, but he still is a bit "unusual".
: Well Twisted Fate should be that given his theme should be "luck of a draw".
Didn't he inherit magical powers somehow? Or was it retconned? I actually think Graves is one of the closest to a normal person. Besides his gun and experience in fighting, he seems pretty normal.
: Yeah she does, the ally doesn't. This has been a request since the day she was released. Forgot their reasoning for why they didn't do this, it's been so long.
Visual clutter? That is the only thing I could imagine, considering some champions have range indicators for their own abilities. Tho I'd prefer having a range indicator for Orianna's ball.
: > [{quoted}](name=CrazyMonkeyCZ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uRjKIyUl,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-06-10T11:18:00.369+0000) > > Supp Lux IS maxing W first. If you're going to ask for nerfs at least try playing the pick first to understand her weaknesses. No lux is maxing w first. This is incorrect. She is maxing e then w. Furthermore, lux has a very defined kit in terms of spell rotationas/patterns.
Only until Gold Lux maxes E and goes Full AP. It is a suboptimal strategy compared to Max W Support Lux (based on Win Rate) and it less popular in Plat+. And let's not forget that her Full Support build is the new build that relaunched her as a good Support. Her Full AP version has always existed and has always been considered a troll build.
IainG10 (EUW)
: Her team-wide shield can be over 2k HP; it makes Locket look bad. Yet people ignore it on her but rush Locket on anything with HP..... It's like they've seen that she _can_ deal damage, so she _has_ to build that way,. and it's simply not the case.
Problem is that your teammates dodge everything, including your Shield! Locket at least is very easy to use and is in an area around you, not in a line like Lux' W. But I agree, her W has always been underrated compared to the rest of her kit.
Investa (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Anu3isII,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vvTmT1rX,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-09T19:40:04.339+0000) > > Yeah, checking the stats again, her Full AP build is very popular until Plat+ and fares decently currently. I thought her Supportive build was at least as popular, since it was the one that relaunched her as a Support in the bot lane with huge success. > > But I guess people would rather see the world burn than protecting it xD Considering most people fail to see the strength of an actual support Lux build and will adamantly push their Lux support to build full AP, I can see why this happens. Even my friends encourage me to build full AP after my support item, but I won't do it. Athenes is so good on her, as is Censer if you have even one or two auto attack champs. In fact, Koreans are building mid-Lux with a few support items because she falls off if she can't land roots. With Athenes, Censer or Redemption, she can support from the backline to great effect even if she can't make plays. Her team-wide shield is under-estimated.
I have always loved to rush Athene's on her, ever since I started playing the game. It may be old school, but it still works.
IainG10 (EUW)
: To be slightly fair; I see a LOT of Lux 'Supp' players build Spellthief's then full AP. This is in Elo Hell though (I also build at least 2 of those items you mentioned because I am well aware my team has a Midlaner, and that Midlaner is not me)
Yeah, checking the stats again, her Full AP build is very popular until Plat+ and fares decently currently. I thought her Supportive build was at least as popular, since it was the one that relaunched her as a Support in the bot lane with huge success. But I guess people would rather see the world burn than protecting it xD
: > [{quoted}](name=Anu3isII,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vvTmT1rX,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-06-08T23:10:32.992+0000) > > Yet she maxes W first and builds {{item:3174}} {{item:3107}} {{item:3504}} when she goes Support. If even after all these adaptations people still say she is a mage, when she definitely trades her Damage for Utility and Survivability, then every god damn Support with AP scalings in bottom lane is a Mage, because most of them would actually outdamage her. Most of Lux player going bot lane, play her like mid. Upgrade spellthief item to 2nd phase and go luden, into full AP. They max E and Q before taking W. The type of Lux you see happen very rarely.
Checking her stats, I can see your point. From the looks of it, all tiers from Iron to Gold prefer to go full AP, as you mentioned. Tho I find it suboptimal (after all, she became a viable supp because of the build I mentioned and I find better champions at poking than her) the full AP build is the most played and only in Plat+ it sees very little Play Rate, which is a very small percentage of the playerbase. When I made the comment I was looking only at Plat+ data. But seeing her overall stats, I can understand why people dislike her. I never liked a full AP Lux bot to be fair.
: Can you actually use facts before making a post? Like this is going to be a long one to show just how wrong you are since people like you need to stop being so biased. 1: LETS DO THE FUCKING MATH ON PEN and ACTUALLY THINK since you didn't. {{item:3020}} and {{item:3916}} gives 36 flat pen. {{item:3142}} and {{item:3147}} gives 39 lethality. Now lets actually talk about the game and how items and champions work Assassins are early to mid game champions meaning flat pen is already better since by the time it takes TWO FULL lethality items at level 17 to reach the level of penetration boots and half a item do and the assassin would of already fallen off and it's late game meaning there was more magic in early and mid game. So yeah actually for the majority of the game there is more magic pen that is a fact and the I just showed the numbers. There is also less mr in the game making it so that flat magic pen is MUCH more effective. Like I actually think your trolling since you say then is less mr making % magic pen less favorable HELLO WERE TALKING ABOUT FUCKING ASSASSINS you know the champions who have the least defensive WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO BUY %PEN like zed sucks vs anything with armor and hp go play vs jax or anyone who can fit armor and hp it sucks as the zed player. Like it really shows that you are just biased WHEN you put ad champions WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT AD CHAMPIONS talking about assassins. Like my post was about mid lane who is just mages and assassins basically. 2: like your point only makes sense if were talking about bruisers not ad assassins. Ad assassins want to win lane not play safe since almost every mage out scales them and the only ap assassins that doesn't out scale is like fizz meaning if they don't get ahead they fall behind YOU KNOW HOW ASSASSINS PLAY. Again assassins don't want to build {{item:3156}} since it doesn't do anything like they much rather have {{item:3026}}, more ad or a hp item like {{item:3071}} whereas every and I mean every fucking ap champion can fit {{item:3157}} into there build. Also do you play ap champions? Since {{item:3165}} is a really bad item since all it has it healing reduction over {{item:3916}} and {{item:3152}} is built on champions who usually don't buy {{item:3285}} so yeah most champions would rather build {{item:3157}} over {{item:3165}} and {{item:3152}} since it give a lot of survivability again one of the best actives in the game, cdr and a good amount of ap. 3: Again if mages can slow down laning they win meaning they don't care about losing damage since one it builds they can part of a item they would build anyways and they again out scale. 4: Do I even have to mention that {{item:3135}} is 40% magic penetration meaning you can basically sell {{item:3916}} and buy {{item:3135}} and have the sams amount of flat pen late game since boots gives you 18 and most champions base protections late game will get them close to that.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfQXyjTm,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2019-06-09T00:58:06.108+0000) > > Can you actually use facts before making a post? Like this is going to be a long one to show just how wrong you are since people like you need to stop being so biased. > > 1: LETS DO THE FUCKING MATH ON PEN and ACTUALLY THINK since you didn't. > {{item:3020}} and {{item:3916}} gives 36 flat pen. > {{item:3142}} and {{item:3147}} gives 39 lethality. You assume AD Assassins build only those 2 items? Almost every game Zed builds at least 3 Armour Penetration items, which would most of the times overcome an AP's Magic Penetration (because of %Armour Pen being more useful overall). The point is that even his squishy targets have enough Armour to make %Armour Pen valuable against them. > Now lets actually talk about the game and how items and champions work > Assassins are early to mid game champions meaning flat pen is already better since by the time it takes TWO FULL lethality items at level 17 to reach the level of penetration boots and half a item do and the assassin would of already fallen off and it's late game meaning there was more magic in early and mid game. So yeah actually for the majority of the game there is more magic pen that is a fact and the I just showed the numbers. Early to Mid Game people have less Armour than MR, that is the major reason why Riot removed Flat Armour Penetration. Otherwise, you would have only seen {{item:3142}} as the only Flat Armour Pen item. > There is also less mr in the game making it so that flat magic pen is MUCH more effective. Like I actually think your trolling since you say then is less mr making % magic pen less favorable HELLO WERE TALKING ABOUT FUCKING ASSASSINS you know the champions who have the least defensive WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO BUY %PEN like zed sucks vs anything with armor and hp go play vs jax or anyone who can fit armor and hp it sucks as the zed player. You tell me that MR is less effective than Armour, yet you state that Magic Pen is more effective? If MPen is very effective, automatically MR is powerful because it is meant to deny MPen. Simple as that. Again, even the main targets have natural resistances to make %Armour Pen useful. %Magic Pen is only good vs targets that have bought MR. > Like it really shows that you are just biased WHEN you put ad champions WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT AD CHAMPIONS talking about assassins. Like my post was about mid lane who is just mages and assassins basically. AD Assassins are the only class of champions who actively build all the items I mentioned (in different combinations). Outside of them, only Miss Fortune may go for all those items. There are picks like {{champion:42}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:41}} which are played Mid too, just saying. > 2: like your point only makes sense if were talking about bruisers not ad assassins. Ad assassins want to win lane not play safe since almost every mage out scales them and the only ap assassins that doesn't out scale is like fizz meaning if they don't get ahead they fall behind YOU KNOW HOW ASSASSINS PLAY. If you deny your lane opponent's damage while dealing relatively the same amount of damage, you essentially have advantage over them in the laning phase. If you play vs a Fizz for example, building Hexdrinker will lead to better trades and all-ins vs him. If you build Lethality, he will counterbuild you with Armguard. Building defensive items can allow you for more aggressive plays. > Again assassins don't want to build {{item:3156}} since it doesn't do anything like they much rather have {{item:3026}}, more ad or a hp item like {{item:3071}} whereas every and I mean every fucking ap champion can fit {{item:3157}} into there build. And, as I previously said, you don't have to upgrade it. You can always switch for {{item:3139}} if you are that late into the game to finish all items. Otherwise, just keep Hexdrinker in your inventory. > Also do you play ap champions? Since {{item:3165}} is a really bad item since all it has it healing reduction over {{item:3916}} and {{item:3152}} is built on champions who usually don't buy {{item:3285}} so yeah most champions would rather build {{item:3157}} over {{item:3165}} and {{item:3152}} since it give a lot of survivability again one of the best actives in the game, cdr and a good amount of ap. The items I mentioned are the first buys. Most Mages rush either {{item:3285}} , {{item:3152}} or {{item:3165}}. Many items are significantly more gold efficient in terms of offensive stats. The item is great, but not for it's offensive capabilities. > 3: Again if mages can slow down laning they win meaning they don't care about losing damage since one it builds they can part of a item they would build anyways and they again out scale. If a Mage doesn't have Mana and/or Damage to contribute in the Mid Game, then they lost a major power spike. Only ADCs and a handful of champions scale no matter what. Moreover, Mages are a pretty broad class, ranging from AP Assassins to AP Supports. Not all of them can afford to lose the Early Game. > 4: Do I even have to mention that {{item:3135}} is 40% magic penetration meaning you can basically sell {{item:3916}} and buy {{item:3135}} and have the sams amount of flat pen late game since boots gives you 18 and most champions base protections late game will get them close to that. Unless your opponents build MR, you would be better with Morello. And most people do build Morello. I don't get what is so surprising to you. It has 7.9% Pick Rate in all matches while Void Staff has 2.3% (since it is situationally better and/or is built later). And can we not have such an aggressive discussion? Just because both of us have different opinions, it doesn't mean we have to fight over things based on our perspective. We should have a normal discussion where both sides provide their own views on the game and discuss about it. I'm sorry if something I said may have been offensive to trigger you.
: Tips on TF?
If you like his On-Hit builds, check for his Klepto Rune set-up, and in terms of items he rushes Trinity Force followed by different On-Hit items based on the match-up. The idea is to proc Klepto as many times as possible and get your items fast. As for AP TF, you have to realise that you give up lane power for Roaming potential. His Ult is very powerful when used correctly and it can be a huge game changer. When hitting 6, always try to look for opportunities to use it and help your team. Also try to coordinate with your jungler and support to control vision. TF can be very helpful with his Gold Card and if allies provide enough CC, he can chain CC opponents. He is also great at targeting isolated targets as long as he has vision control. And one small trick, when you lock in Gold Card, the next time you Pick A Card, you will have another Gold Card as first pick (but it happens only once every time). In terms of items, these {{item:3100}} {{item:3157}} are pretty much core, {{item:3027}} is always good in bad match-ups and always aim for a 40% CDR build to spam those Gold Cards. In terms of Runes, he is pretty flexible. You should just experiment with him a bit to get a grasp of what play style suits you. He is very versatile, yet mechanically easy, focusing a lot on macro play and game knowledge to win the game. Based on which side of him you like, it may also change your play style as a whole
: > [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=u5EBkMs6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-06-08T02:46:10.572+0000) > > Nobody says everyone should look like Illaoi and the fact that you claim they do suggests you are misunderstanding their claim. I get the claim. But don't you remember Kai'sa release day? Where a loud minority went crazy because she was "OVersexualized"
Dude, one name: Kerrigan. It isn't about how sexualized she was, it was about how sexualized and pretty normal looking she was, when people expected a human afflicted by the Void. As a guy who likes Kassadin a lot, I expected more from another Void survivor.
: Go and play zed or go play mid lane since you don't know how the game works. 1:There is more magic pen vs armor pen in the game meaning mr is less effective then armor. 2:{{item:3155}} sucks like no one should build it unless the enemy has heavy ap since it lowers your damage too much since {{item:3156}} just doesn't do anything for assassins later into the game or mid game and especially in early game and {{item:3155}} lowers your damage too since you have no pen or ad as a assassin. 3: {{item:3157}} can be built without the champion building it losing damage and having one of the best actives in the game. Like why are you so biased for mages? Knowing this takes like one game as zed
1. Simply isn't true. AD champions have Lethality items( {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3142}} ), {{item:3035}} items and {{item:3071}} . Magic Damage dealers have only {{item:3020}} {{item:3165}} and {{item:3135}}. Moreover, you ignore the fact that most targets will always have much higher Base Armour than MR, making %Pen/Reduction more favourable for ADs than APs. 2. {{item:3155}} is way better than {{item:3191}} and you don't even have to upgrade it for a more powerful effect. Yes, it does lower your damage potential, otherwise it would be busted. It offers a lot of safety vs Magic Damage dealers and some AD on top of it. Mages that rush {{item:3191}} also lose Damage and/or Mana, since they delay their {{item:3802}} {{item:3916}} {{item:3145}}. 3. That is simply a lie. If people have to rush it, just compare it to {{item:3285}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3152}} and tell me straight to face it is comparable. {{item:3157}} is mostly built for its Active and Survivability. The amount of AP and CDR it provides is decent at best.
: What annoys me the most is that Mage supports like Lux and Zyra can LITERALLY solo the entire lane even if the ADC is complete braindead. More often than not I've seen a god awful ADC get through the laning phase just because a mage support *existed* in their lane, allowing them to escape every mistake they'd commit while out damaging me and my adc every time because AP items are ~~broken garbage~~ very reliable.
Yet she maxes W first and builds {{item:3174}} {{item:3107}} {{item:3504}} when she goes Support. If even after all these adaptations people still say she is a mage, when she definitely trades her Damage for Utility and Survivability, then every god damn Support with AP scalings in bottom lane is a Mage, because most of them would actually outdamage her.
: Please bring back short, choose-your-own-champion game modes. I don't always have time to get a full SR done, but want to play. My only choice is ARAM, but then I get champs I'm not always interested in playing. Can we please get Blitz or Blood Moon back? Permanently? Once a month?
Dominion used to be for that...
: {{champion:51}} woman with gun and poor fashion sense {{champion:107}} cat that isn't even blue {{champion:58}} {{champion:75}} these two are LITERALLY just bipedal animals. The furries on deviantart would scoff. {{champion:23}} {{champion:86}} guys with swords You can play this game with any champ. I will agree Sylas is boring though. Old Kayle was also just a generic suit of armor, so idk what the deal is there.
{{champion:51}} has one of the most disappointing appearances, she should have some detective outfit based on her lore imo. {{champion:107}} is a hunter with an appearance full of details. And he looks pretty badass imo. {{champion:75}} {{champion:58}} embody Egyptian gods, specifically Anubis and Sobek. While not the most original, their outfits are somewhat cool and lore related (since Shurima is based on Ancient Egypt) {{champion:23}} is generic Barbarian. Pretty hard to change anything about him. {{champion:86}} is a beyblade! Old {{champion:10}} had a more realistic and practical armor imo. The new one is weird, since it has a lot of weak spots while having a lot of unnecessary decorative elements added. Either give her a very light armor/clothing to highlight her preference towards agility or a full armor that actually protects her, not a very bad mix of both with stupid add-ons.
: Ah, yes, because {{item:1054}} and {{item:3211}} aren't items that exist. And Second Wind isn't a rune that exists.
I totally understand why they nerf the sustain, but I don't get why they also nerf the damage boost and the amount of time you get that boost. Its last change on PBE has made it deal 15 Damage at all levels, which is exactly the boost we previously had at level 1.
: Corrupting Potion Gutting
Have you seen its last nerf? They change the damage to 15 at all levels... I really don't know what to say.
KazKaz (OCE)
: {{champion:99}} isn't a support, she's a mage. Additionally, the enchanters you've listed can and do run coin on a lot of occasions. As for your Zyra point, Zyra was the only support to go bot lane outside of Annie, at least before GP/10 items got updated. Nowadays any and all mages can be sent bot lane and are often better than traditional supports thanks to burst damage being more valuable than general utility, at least in subpar MMRs. It's not just 2-3 mages, there's {{champion:1}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:85}} who all usually go bot lane. That's more than 2-3 mages. Yes, it would be easier to change the mages, but do you honestly think mage players will comply; for one, and do you also think that Riot will competently change them to force them out of bot lane without creating another Ardent meta?
> [{quoted}](name=KazKaz,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PKvpl4Le,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-05T18:27:27.135+0000) > > {{champion:99}} isn't a support, she's a mage. > Additionally, the enchanters you've listed can and do run coin on a lot of occasions. Lux is played mainly for her Shield, which is maxed first and she even runs Aftershock for more freedom in engaging her opponents with her Snare. She effectively deals less damage than a Poke Support, yet you consider her a Mage... And no, checking the Pick Rate of that item on the supports I listed shows that Ancient Coin has at most 12% Pick Rate on Soraka. That means 1/8 of her games, which means that it is picked situationally, most probably in very bad match-ups. You can't tell me it compares to Spellthief, which is the main item of all these champions, ranging from 84% to 95% Pick Rate. > As for your Zyra point, Zyra was the only support to go bot lane outside of Annie, at least before GP/10 items got updated. Nowadays any and all mages can be sent bot lane and are often better than traditional supports thanks to burst damage being more valuable than general utility, at least in subpar MMRs. What do you consider a subpar MMR? And no, generally speaking Utility counters burst. Otherwise, we would see Assassins bursting ADCs left and right, when we know that isn't true. > It's not just 2-3 mages, there's {{champion:1}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:85}} who all usually go bot lane. Out of those, only {{champion:1}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:99}} see consistent play in the bot lane, two of them seeing play from the very beginning of the game ({{champion:26}} {{champion:143}} ). And do you really consider Zilean a Mage? I mean, he is picked for his Ultimate and overall Utility, there are better Poke Mages than him... {{champion:99}} : Recent support pick, Maxes her Defensive Shield first, has various CCs in her kit, generally focuses on Utility over Damage (builds {{item:3504}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3107}} when Support). I would argue she is an Enchanter. {{champion:161}} {{champion:101}} : Poke Mages focused purely on bullying their opponents. Rarely picked because of their lack of defensive tools, making them easy targets to engages. Generally resurface when Poke ADCs are meta. {{champion:90}} : Was a trend until Riot put him down. He lacks both Utility and Damage now and is mostly picked Mid right now for his Safe laning phase. The reason he went Support was his unbalanced rework in the first place. {{champion:85}} : What is Pikachu doing here? He saw some pro play (which may have led to some surge in play rate), but he is barely picked at all, especially as a Support. He builds Spellthief's in at most 2% of his Games... >That's more than 2-3 mages. Yes, it would be easier to change the mages, but do you honestly think mage players will comply; for one, and do you also think that Riot will competently change them to force them out of bot lane without creating another Ardent meta? Mages will move from bot lane if they are made weak enough in that lane. {{champion:1}} has seen a significant drop in performance when they nerfed her Base Damage and increased her AP Ratios (essentially targeting her Support role while keeping Mid mostly the same). One of the reasons these two {{champion:63}} {{champion:143}} see consistent play in bot lane is their huge Base Damage coupled with low AP Ratios, making AP less important to itemize on them than the usual mages. If they do the same change they did for {{champion:1}} to them, they would definitely be weaker on Bot while probably having succes Mid (depends how extreme the change is). And I don't know what you mean about Ardent Meta, that was a thing only because the item was busted, not the champions. If Mages were removed from Bot, it would only lead to a increase in Pick Rate for all Utility-based classes (Enchanters, Catchers and Vanguards). And really, only {{champion:63}} {{champion:143}} seem major problems, followed by {{champion:1}} and sometimes this duo {{champion:101}} {{champion:161}} (which is considered troll by many people, but that is a subjective matter).
KazKaz (OCE)
: Coin still exists?
Coin isn't comparable to Spellthief, it is 4 times less picked than Spellthief and it barely affects the laning phase, while Spellthief helps you pressure the opponents. If you remove Spellthief, you effectively nerf {{champion:432}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:16}} , just because you want to target 2-3 mages that consistently go bot. It would be much easier to simply change how those mages work than removing an item that could turn balance upside-down.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: I did not say that kai'sa could shield allies I said, in league we have shields with ad scaling nothing prevents riot from making a support that has a shield on ally with an ad scaling on it
I agree with you that they could theoretically introduce supports with AD scalings, but the game lacks the tools to support this play style. If they introduce other support items for ADs (like old Zeke's), I could see new AD supports. Otherwise, they would most probably be designed to abuse current AD items or function without any AD, defeating the purpose of having an AD scaling.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: kai'sa's shield scales with AD as well
Which is a self-cast in a not so spammable Ultimate. So Aery is the only thing that could Shield Allies with an AD ratio and its AD users don't run it for the Shield.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: ? we have in league shields who scale with ad nothing prevents riot from making a support that can shield allies while having ad ratios >but... ardent!!" taric has a shield, and almost never buys ardent.
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PKvpl4Le,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-06-04T23:42:32.427+0000) > > ? > > we have in league shields who scale with ad > > nothing prevents riot from making a support that can shield allies while having ad ratios > > taric has a shield, and almost never buys ardent. The only Shields that scale with AD are Riven's E (self-cast) and Aery (which is most of the times randomly applied by things like Jayce E). Taric is a also a Tank, whose Healing and Shielding capabilities scale with HP. Most of his items are classical Utility items, which generally have some HP {{item:3401}} {{item:3118}} {{item:3107}} , scale with HP {{item:3190}} and the only major exception being {{item:3050}} which is built for its power-enabling and other stats. Tanks at least have multiple items to support this play style, while AD champions don't really have (you could argue that {{item:3147}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3123}} are decent, but they cost a lot and pale in terms of utility compared to any other support item). In short, I can't really see how they can add AD supports without making some supportive AD items (or simply make the champion ignore its scalings). Pyke gets away with it because he goes full assassin, providing only kill potential while CC-ing opponents.
KazKaz (OCE)
: They do, remove the G/10 items. There, done. We never had this issue before Spellthief/Frostfang :)
? You know Zyra has been picked bot even before Spellthief/Frostfang, right? Besides, you would also nerf most Enchanters that choose Spellthief for poke and automatically lead to a Tank meta in bot lane. Not really the best idea.
: > [{quoted}](name=Anu3isII,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TBWfqrOK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-06-03T19:30:32.981+0000) > > Assassins in general lose their kill pressure without their ults:{{champion:84}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:238}}{{champion:555}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:238}} need their Ults for extra mobility, CC and/or execute potential. > > While Ahri does lose all her mobility, she has a pretty strong and safe base kit that she doesn't rely on her Ultimate to be useful. Some of the picks above may work without their Ultimate, but most of them do have a hard time functioning without it. She does still rely on her ultimate to be useful. Due to her charm being a skillshot. Sure she has wave clear, but the fact that her only other defensive tool is on a easily dodged skillshot, she’s insanely weak without her ult.
Except that she can easily use it to react to opponents' engage or to assist her allies, as most immobile mages do. The Assassins I mentioned either have to find their opponents out of position or have assistance from their allies in order to kill their opponents without their Ultimates. She can still fish for charms when grouped and she has a relatively safe Range of action, while Assassins need to use their mobility to close the gap or have much easier to dodge skillshots. As I said in the other post, I don't see how her ult has much more of a trade-off than the average Assassin. Different, yes, but saying she is weak without her Ultimate is straight out unbelievable from my point of view.
: > [{quoted}](name=Anu3isII,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TBWfqrOK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-06-03T19:30:32.981+0000) > > Assassins in general lose their kill pressure without their ults:{{champion:84}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:238}}{{champion:555}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:238}} Hold up, you think Assassin Kayn, Leblanc, fizz, and Zed need ults to have kill pressure? Lmfao, the second you get to 70% hp they have kill pressure on you REGARDLESS if they have ult or not. And those champs can easily make use of that kill pressure since their mobility spells IS NOT AN ULTIMATE, and since said mobility are basic spells they can force a trade to get you into kill range for their next rotation :). Also Eve doesn't even need her ult after she has her 3 core items, and anymore after that means she deletes you within the blink of an eye. Not the hardest thing to do in the world thanks to her camouflage. Now lets talk about the other assassins you mentioned. Diana- Her ult is 20 seconds and resets, she will have multiple chances to one shot or force you out of fights while burning cooldowns. And just killing her isn't that simple when her W is pretty good at mitigating damage. Noc- Are we forgetting the part where his ult blindsides everyone making it harder to protect his targets in jungle fights? The perfect solo Q champion. Pyke- AOE true damage execute that goes through shields and resets. Literally just let your team do the damage AND THEN go in with the ult, it's that simple as pyke. Why do you think he is the only assassin to go Aftershock instead of more damage? Do you guys even play as or vs these champs?
> [{quoted}](name=2Charmnot2Charm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TBWfqrOK,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-06-03T21:33:56.569+0000) > > Hold up, you think Assassin Kayn, Leblanc, fizz, and Zed need ults to have kill pressure? Lmfao, the second you get to 70% hp they have kill pressure on you REGARDLESS if they have ult or not. Unless you position extremely badly, Fizz and Zed and debatably LeBlanc shouldn't have any way to kill you. Assassin Kayn heavily relies on your team's lack of vision. > And those champs can easily make use of that kill pressure since their mobility spells IS NOT AN ULTIMATE, and since said mobility are basic spells they can force a trade to get you into kill range for their next rotation :). As I said, their engage is very limited in terms of Range and Damage without their Ults. If you use your E as Fizz to be able to Q a target, you lost most of your damage. Same for LeBlanc with her W. Zed's W range is very small and Kayn should rely on Walls to get to you in the first place (not as if he can't be easily peeled. > Also Eve doesn't even need her ult after she has her 3 core items, and anymore after that means she deletes you within the blink of an eye. Not the hardest thing to do in the world thanks to her camouflage. After 3 items people should already group and protect their carries. If you go without ult, people would easily collapse on you, besides having a hard time approaching them without being peeled by their tanks or supports. Besides, you talk about a 3 item Evelynn, which is very late into the game. She needs her Ult for most of the game to gain an advantage and snowball with the 3 item spike. Until then, she is pretty much depending on it. > Now lets talk about the other assassins you mentioned. > > Diana- Her ult is 20 seconds and resets, she will have multiple chances to one shot or force you out of fights while burning cooldowns. And just killing her isn't that simple when her W is pretty good at mitigating damage. Fights don't last longer than 20 seconds. If she used it without resetting the CD, the enemy can turn on her and pretty much kill her. And her reset requires you to land a Q before, which isn't as easy as you make it. Many Diana players started using R and then land her Q to guarantee it hits, even though they lose their reset. Her W is good in 1v1s, but outside of that she dies easily. > Noc- Are we forgetting the part where his ult blindsides everyone making it harder to protect his targets in jungle fights? The perfect solo Q champion. Are we ignoring the fact that he is immobile without it and it has a really long CD? He has a hard time engaging without it, which is my whole point. > Pyke- AOE true damage execute that goes through shields and resets. Literally just let your team do the damage AND THEN go in with the ult, it's that simple as pyke. Why do you think he is the only assassin to go Aftershock instead of more damage? How many Assassins have more than one spammable hard CC in their kit? He pretty much abuses the Keystone and it doesn't have any connection with his Ultimate at all. Heck, some Pykes run Dark Harvest as their main Keystone, and those are arguably the ones that abuse how his ult works the most. And sure, let's ignore things like Kassadin and Akali going for Fleet Footwork, Glacial Augment Ahri and the new Smite/Spellbook meta that people started abusing on Mages and AP Assassins. And I don't even get what you try to prove. That their ults are powerful? That is the whole point. Without their ults, they barely work. > Do you guys even play as or vs these champs? I do and I don't consider them as impossible to fight against as you make it seem. It is all a matter of positioning and reacting correctly to the situation. Heck, even now I dislike to face some of them, but I generally don't have a hard time facing them.
: Because her mobility is tied to her ult and Nuked her kill pressure when she doesn’t have it. 90% of the other assassins don’t have that issue, as their mobility is tied to a basic, so before you know it they have all their mobility back.
Assassins in general lose their kill pressure without their ults:{{champion:84}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:238}}{{champion:555}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:238}} need their Ults for extra mobility, CC and/or execute potential. While Ahri does lose all her mobility, she has a pretty strong and safe base kit that she doesn't rely on her Ultimate to be useful. Some of the picks above may work without their Ultimate, but most of them do have a hard time functioning without it.
: Interesting what do you dislike about the Freljord update? My understanding was that was one of the more popular ones.
I think some people find the new lore of Lissandra a bit controversial.
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Anu3isII

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