: I'm not. Just look at marksmen and tell me how are Quinn and Graves related to their playstyle? Quinn speeds across the map assassinating people. Graves is a close range kiter who cannot eve do sustained damage but deals burst damage. How is that within: "Spellweaving, backline auto attackers" or "High speed, backline auto attackers"?
Just like there are several types of mages, there are also several types of marksmen. Not every mage/marksman does the same thing or share the same kits. You also ignore that both of these marksmen were being played top even before the changes that they got.
: I guess I'll re-post this as well. > [{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqQee7Nz,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2017-09-14T07:07:11.313+0000) > > Support (role) aids the team just as much as any individual. Their job is to not be awesome so everyone else can soak up as much glory as possible. It's a result of insufficient income streams. That's why they buy all the team utility items and get no CS. > The only reason they go with ADC is for income optimization. ADC's are the least level dependent, so they get the support. ADC's are more than capable of surviving in a solo lane though. > > Support itemization is the same way. > {{item:3109}} Effect doesn't discriminate. Best on ADC's (as opposed to other squishies) because they have the game's highest damage out-put (more healing for the builder). > {{item:3190}} Shields everyone equally based on the *user's* bonus health. > {{item:3222}} The CC removal benefit everyone equally. Except maybe Olaf. > {{item:3056}} Doesn't get built. > {{item:3107}} Heals everyone equally. > {{item:2045}} Doesn't interact with allies. > {{item:3050}} "Allied basic attack burns" don't stack; the duration refreshes. So attacking more than once every 2 seconds accomplishes nothing. Meaning that Raw AD is the only important factor on that part; crit and AS don't help (if I interpret it correctly; Riot is a tad ambiguous on this one). > {{item:3504}} Like Zeke's, the healing doesn't stack; so high AS doesn't matter. This is the only item that *does* disproportionately favor ADC though, because the bonus AS benefits their raw AD *and* Crit. Except for Yasuo and Trynd, no one else really builds crit. > {{item:3069}} MS bonus doesn't discriminate. > {{item:3401}} Shield active benefit everyone equally. > {{item:2055}} Doesn't interact with allies. > (I'm probably missing something.) > > Support champions also have mostly agnostic kits. > {{champion:44}} (Can even us abilities on the front and back line simultaneously!) > {{champion:37}} (Q favors ranged champions for ease of application) > {{champion:267}} (E favors ranged champions for ease of application) > {{champion:497}} (Biased towards Xayah by design) > {{champion:201}} Passive favors ranged champions for ease of stacking. But allies don't directly benefit from anything in his kit. > {{champion:40}} Shield favors ADC's because it benefit their high AS and *crit*. > {{champion:117}} W AS bonus favors ADC's because it benefits their AD and *crit*. Interestingly, release Lulu also gave out bonus AP. But the AS and AP buffs were lost in the war against top lane Lulu. The AS came back as an effort to incentivize her to go back there. > > -------------------- > > The only reason supports get lumped into the mix is because people fail to distinguish between "core" and "meta" problems. > Meta dictates that supports build items to benefit allies. > Meta dictates that supports lane with ADC. > Meta dictates that ADC's build glass cannon. > Meta dictates that supports use their items/abilities **so** their lane partner can go glass cannon. > > When you look at things in a vacuum, there's very little supporting that disproportionately favors ADC's over anyone else.
Ah, you misunderstand me. The argument i make is not that items are SPECIFICALLY geared to adc's (Although, you have to admit, that there are items/champions like that). Due to the strenght of adc's, supporting one will be better than supporting any class. You are right in the statement that the numbers that the support applies are equal to everyone, the value and the effect of the buff however, is not equal. Adc's disproportionally benefit and gain more value from buffs than any other class. You CAN support a mage, you CAN support a skirmisher, you CAN support a bruiser, but in the end, support either of those classes will not be as srong as simply supporting an adc. You can't look at thing in a vacuum, because these games do not happen in a vaccum, the meta also does not apply in the vacuum. While the numbers are equal, the value gained is disproportional on adc's, supporting them gains the most value, thus making supports favour the adc's over any other class. It is very simple, if adc's were not disproportionately favoured by supporting. Me supporting a mage/skirmisher/bruiser should have the same value and effect, but we all know that is not true.
: Go to reddit, read what a certain riot designer thinks: i quote: "yes their role (support) is to multiply the adc. That is what riot designers think how this game works or should work. No wonder it is this way and it won't change as long as these guys are in charge. He also complains about sightstone not being exciting enough to buy
You can't be fucking serious..... Could you link it? I want to see such bullshit for myself. Not exciting enough to buy, what game does he think he is fucking designing?
Leetri (EUW)
: Yasuo can't control where the ult puts him, Warwick can. Read DunkinNoobs' reply a few comments down, he explains it pretty well. But basically, Yasuo is automatically put behind his target unless he's on the very edge of the tower radius. Warwick in the same scenario would land in front of his target, so he'd never be in danger of tower shots anyway.
Yes he can. Just like warwick he chooses WHEN to use his ultimate. If he uses his ultimate when the enemy is in a position to be protected, he should get screwed. Just like ww would get screwed if he would ult someone under a turret.
Lit Corn (EUW)
: pls tell me what was wroten :o
Basically? "You all suck, i as a silver master player tell you that this feature would be useless as you all suck and could not use it. Also git gud kids, coz yasuo is not good. I am a master player HURRRRR DURRRRR" The usual yasuo main nonsense.
: Re-posting this; appears relevant. > [{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqQee7Nz,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-09-13T21:11:47.653+0000) > > Personally, I agree that ADC's present an issue. But they're ultimately a symptom of larger problems. > > 1. range > melee. > Riot doesn't do much to mitigate this at a macro level; and often band-aids melees to mitigate at a micro level. > 2. AA damage > spell damage. > Again, at a macro level and in a vacuum. AA's have high scaling 1.0 AD (up to 2.5 with crit), the lowest max (and average) cooldown in the game, and are resourceless. > 3. Structures. > Excluding Ziggs, there is no way to kill structures with abilities. Very few champions (and sheen) have abilities that can even *affect* structures. > > ~~ADC's~~ "Marksman" benefit from all three of these core game mechanics. That's why they will always be necessary. Before we even begin looking at individual stats and kits, ADC's have macro-level advantage. > > And before "that guy" posts, supports aren't a core problem. Their state (role, class, champion, and itemization) are also symptoms of their own problems. But, for the most part, their influence applies equally to every one (regardless of game state). That's why they tend to vanish when ever the meta even remotely allows it.
I agree, it all comes down to how the game operates, unless some big changes are done to some core game systems, adc's are going to be dominating. That is why i am annoyed when they rework jungle every goddamn season and target game mechanics that are not a problem instead of focusing on the real problems. I only disagree that support influence applies equally to everyone, support disproportionally affet adc's better than any other class they might support, due to itemization, skills and the prevalence and strenght of adc's.
: I don't understand how this was even such a big issue back in the preaseason. You'd think Riot was removing Summoner's Rift with the meltdown people were having.
Yea, what captain said. Also you have to remember the context. The change came with yet MORE jungle changes (Which is not liked a lot). And the changes came after a season of DQ, so people were REALLY aprehensive of ANY Riot changes.
Rebonack (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FugLqjvy,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T22:33:54.151+0000) > > Again, a question arises. Why does literally EVERY OTHER MOBA not have this problem? Why can i take a mage/marksman/melle adc/assasin in lanes and still have a proper laning phase. Why in other moba games adcs are not the ONLY class that is allowed in a duo lane? I answered that question. It has to do with how the map is designed, how resources are divided up, how things scale, and how NPC aggro works. Champion abilities factor into it, too. Over in DotA towers don't target you if you blast someone under them with a spell, only basic attacks. And creeps are out for you blood if you so much as *click* on someone to attack them. AND many melee heroes have tools to allow them to farm a lane against ranged opponent(s) without getting absolutely shat on, including a Doran's Shield on steroids that's practically useless on ranged heroes. In short, melee heroes in DotA (can't really speak to HotS, haven't played it) have both systemic tools and kit tools to allow them to function against a ranged carry and their support. > The only conclussion that i can see, is that marksmen in this game are overpowered and always have been. Again, your turret logic does not hold up, as in Dota those same objectives exist, yet marksmen are not mandatory, while in LOL they are. Towers in DotA drop even faster than the ones in League while dealing about half as much DPS, relatively speaking. They simply aren't a threat (at all). As a result, having someone dedicated to burning them down from range isn't as important. Also keep in mind, because of the way primary abilities work, EVERYONE will have pretty high AD for whomping on towers.
> Towers in DotA drop even faster than the ones in League while dealing about half as much DPS, relatively speaking. They simply aren't a threat (at all). As a result, having someone dedicated to burning them down from range isn't as important. Also keep in mind, because of the way primary abilities work, EVERYONE will have pretty high AD for whomping on towers. No, they do not. Towers in LOL drop faster than in DOTA. A LOT faster. And they are a threat until lategame. Again, i know how DOTA is balanced, i am not saying that LOL should go the same way, but they have to do SOMETHING because they simply are not tackling the problem. > I answered that question. It has to do with how the map is designed, how resources are divided up, how things scale, and how NPC aggro works. Champion abilities factor into it, too. Over in DotA towers don't target you if you blast someone under them with a spell, only basic attacks. And creeps are out for you blood if you so much as click on someone to attack them. AND many melee heroes have tools to allow them to farm a lane against ranged opponent(s) without getting absolutely shat on, including a Doran's Shield on steroids that's practically useless on ranged heroes. > > In short, melee heroes in DotA (can't really speak to HotS, haven't played it) have both systemic tools and kit tools to allow them to function against a ranged carry and their support. Again, you are not disproving my point, at all. Why can't RIOT do anything in at least 6 seasons to change the role? I know how DOTA is balanced, you do not need to tell me that. But that is not my point. My point is why RIOT with this time, to THIS DAY still cannot balance THEIR classes properly. That is in essence my point. Riot to this day cant do what other games have already done. This means that they simply refuse to do anything or are incompetent. Make changes, make more balancing levers, experiment. Yet instead of that adc's are not touched as a class, scratch that, the ONLY time adc's were touched as a class they were made BROKEN!
: Quinn nor Graves are marksmen nor fit the definitions.
Ah well of course, if you are going to change definitions to fit your narative then by YOUR definitions marksmen are not and have not been played top.
: Why is a main support talking about adc problems? {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}} I dunno!
Because a support main has to support the adc constantly in this meta to be most effective. Thus a support main knows a lot about the role he is hitched with.
: Make your own MOBA with 100+ characters and balance it better. If you're going to call them incompetent, you'd better be able to back it up with proof that you're in a real position to judge their capabilities. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of how strong ADC are right now. But I'm not stupid enough to think that the devs are incompetent just 'cause I dislike the current meta.
Ah the usual "You cannot critisize something if you have not done it!" I am calling them incompetent because to this day, they STILL have not managed to fix the main balance problems of the game. I am calling them incompetent because when i compare them to the balance team of other games i see that they are lacking. I am calling them incompetent because DOTA is a far more balanced game while having FAR MORE things to balance. I do not need to be a 5 star chef to see that i am being served shit. I do not need to make a moba to see that the balance of it is wrong. Tell me, if the developers ARE competent, why are they making amature mistakes? Why do they leave broken things up for MONTHS, and why they cannot balance an entire role for 6 SEASONS!
: People always blame developer bias... they're never right, but they always blame it.
Its either bias or incompetence. Choose your poison.
: youre playing a braindead role that glorifies point and click everything and you're acting like you care about skill lol. BTW all of the support players are liars, like the poster of the thread. You guys actually don't care about how your lane ruined this entire season for so many people, and support/adc players got to climb for FREE this season while the rest of us suffered from this shit.
Got out your support hate out of your system for today? Good. Also, did not know that you were a mind reader, please, do tell me what i think, please tell me how my class has been free climbing while you know SHIT about my class. By all means. I would suggest not talking shit about braindead roles while playing Sion, thank you.
: When? Vayne in bronze elo? The failure and tragedy of Huni's Lucian top?
Where have you been this past year? Under a rock? Top lane has seen many marksmen there, from vayne to quinn. Or maybe you forgot graves time of terror?
Rebonack (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FugLqjvy,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T16:41:12.040+0000) > > Okay, then question about supports. Why when supports support other classes from the adc, it is worse than supporting the adc? That alone shows that adcs ARE a problem. Because IF the SUPPORTS were the problem then they would be able to support EVERY class equaly good, but that is not the case. Are you talking about the effectiveness of who is in a duo-lane or the effectiveness of casting a shield on, say, your team's Tank? Because the answers to those questions are different. > Yes, other factors have a hand to play at this. But yet again, i have to ask. What is the only class in the game, that has been MANDATORY for at least 6 seasons. What is the only class that can go bot carry where no other class can? > > It is the adcs. When i compare LOL to other games it is CLEAR to see that adc's in this game are overtuned and have ALWAYS been overtuned. Ah, okay, I got you now. Short version: It's the way the map is designed. How minion aggro works, how XP and Gold are divided up, how scaling works, how the primary objectives are taken down, and where objectives are located. Even when Marksmen are really weak (they aren't right now), they're still necessary. It's like a King in chess. Even though the King is the second weakest piece on the board, it's still an important part of your win-condition. If the primary objectives were taken down via a channel like they were over in Dominionland (everyone counts as ranged against them, everyone does the same amount of 'damage') then Marksmen would be more situational. If Riot promoted the 1/1/1/J/R lane setup instead of mercilessly crushing it, then there wouldn't be a 2v2 lane (necessarily) and Marksmen would be more situational. If Riot made more melee champions with the tools needed to deal with a 2v2 lane (like Morde, who is pretty amazing and has been for a while now) then Marksmen would be more situational. Because I can assure you, Enchanters can support other classes just fine. There's a reason why they're targeted bans over in Ascension where they aren't gold and level starved.
> Are you talking about the effectiveness of who is in a duo-lane or the effectiveness of casting a shield on, say, your team's Tank? Because the answers to those questions are different. Not really, in both cases the most effective thing is casting a shield on your adc and having adc bot lane. That is simply how it is. > Ah, okay, I got you now. > > Short version: It's the way the map is designed. How minion aggro works, how XP and Gold are divided up, how scaling works, how the primary objectives are taken down, and where objectives are located. > > Even when Marksmen are really weak (they aren't right now), they're still necessary. It's like a King in chess. Even though the King is the second weakest piece on the board, it's still an important part of your win-condition. > > If the primary objectives were taken down via a channel like they were over in Dominionland (everyone counts as ranged against them, everyone does the same amount of 'damage') then Marksmen would be more situational. If Riot promoted the 1/1/1/J/R lane setup instead of mercilessly crushing it, then there wouldn't be a 2v2 lane (necessarily) and Marksmen would be more situational. If Riot made more melee champions with the tools needed to deal with a 2v2 lane (like Morde, who is pretty amazing and has been for a while now) then Marksmen would be more situational. > > Because I can assure you, Enchanters can support other classes just fine. There's a reason why they're targeted bans over in Ascension where they aren't gold and level starved. Again, a question arises. Why does literally EVERY OTHER MOBA not have this problem? Why can i take a mage/marksman/melle adc/assasin in lanes and still have a proper laning phase. Why in other moba games adcs are not the ONLY class that is allowed in a duo lane? The only conclussion that i can see, is that marksmen in this game are overpowered and always have been. Again, your turret logic does not hold up, as in Dota those same objectives exist, yet marksmen are not mandatory, while in LOL they are. There are only 3, i repeat 3 champions that have ever been played bot as carries instead of marksmen. Yasuo - When he was released, which resulted in a failure, as even a champ that was DESIGNED to be able to lane against mages/marksmen could not lane against them. Mordekaiser - Who was BROKEN when he was released and the ONLY reason why he worked for a time because Riot had to LITERALLY make him broken for him to have a chance at beating the marksmen due to brute forcing with free exp boosts. Ziggz - Who only saw play for a month or so because first turret gold was insanely high and he coul cheese turrets and gethis team a MASSIVE gold advantage. These are he only champs that have ever been taken on bot in place of marksmen, and they were either broken or part of a cheese strategy. In other Mobas, that is not the case, marksm en are not dominating like this. This means that marksmen in LOL are simply broken. Also you misunderstand my argument about enchangers. YES, enchanters can support other classes, but supporting an adc will ALWAYS lead to better results overall, meaning that enchanters support marksmen the best, instead of being able to support the entire team properly. This should not be the case. An ehcnater supporting a mage should yeld simmilar results as if he was supporting an adc, but that is not the case. Adc's are not in a good spot, they need to either be nerfed across the board or COMPLETELY changed.
: ***
I play enchanters and tanks, as i main support and sometimes go toplane. Again, it is funny how you call me trash while being hard stuck in silver. Plus jungling does not = laning in any way. You have clear indication of what renekton is going to do because his kit is straightforward. His kit only allows a certain number of plays to be made, all of which a person can be aware of. Yasuos dashes however allow more plays and more mobility than renes ever would. Seeing which minions he can dash to would help in laning, as to see which zones are safer and which are more dangerous. Considering that i am plat1/diamond 5, going in and out, ward when needed, know counters and what works best with certain adc's and teamcomps and am also aware of enemy kits and possible moves, i do have more knowledge than you, a petulant silver yasuo weeb who acts just like every other yasuo main. I suggest talking shit when, you know, you have actually achieved something. Talk is cheap, show us some action.
: I laugh so hard. One month ago, before worlds everyone cried how bad the adcs are, now, that the worlds are here, and they are watching how a role and a champion SHOULD be played, they cry how broken he is. People will always cry like that. (mostly noobs only, cough, cough) {{sticker:sg-ahri-1}}
Wrong. The meme you are referencing was at the START of the season, and it was a stupid meme that was blown up by adc' mains. It did not even have much traction. That was the time when adc's were balanced, when they needed to think about such things as positioning and needed the help of a support. One month ago the boards was FILLED with complaints about the adc role and how the supports were made to cater to adc. If you spout bullshit, at least factcheck beforehand. Thanks.
Cowseed (NA)
: WHAT _action_ can we as player take other than discussing the issue? If we can only discuss the situation at any point we really shouldn't be catering to the salt fueled opinion that more or less extends riots ability to ignore the issue because the badly written post make it look like it isn't even an issue at all! These also block out the actual discussions and fill the front page with post were OP says "Muh ADC is broken" then the replies are all "YEAH! ADCS ARE BROKEN!". Is that productive?
Make sounds until Riot "balance" team gets off their arses and starts working. Again, this issue has been discussed OVER and OVER again, and the conclusions have been made already. What is more needed to be discussed when EVERYTHING has been covered already yet Riot does not seem to care at all? The salt posts are the ONLY thing Riot ever sees. They simply IGNORE any possible discussion, so enough sound has to be made for them to get off their asses. You think i like those threads? I would LOVE to have only discussions on the boards, but Riot doesnt give a fuck about those. They did not care when DQ was implemented, when FAILED reworks were going through, when class "updates" were clearly shite. THEY. DO. NOT. CARE. about discussion. The only thing that has EVER had an effect on their actions is constant spamming, that is the only thing they react to.
Rebonack (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FugLqjvy,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-10-24T16:03:17.385+0000) > > No it does not, especially since the main problems are the adc's. Everything else is a "problem" because of adc's and the meta they are dictating. Current state of the game is the result of: 1) Overbuffed Crit items 2) Overbuffed Enchanter items 3) Overbuffed Tanks 4) Nerfed lane bullies/kill lanes 5) Adding too much 'counterplay' to Burst, making it too unreliable for removing priority targets It isn't simply a case of one champion class being over-tuned.
Okay, then question about supports. Why when supports support other classes from the adc, it is worse than supporting the adc? That alone shows that adcs ARE a problem. Because IF the SUPPORTS were the problem then they would be able to support EVERY class equaly good, but that is not the case. Yes, other factors have a hand to play at this. But yet again, i have to ask. What is the only class in the game, that has been MANDATORY for at least 6 seasons. What is the only class that can go bot carry where no other class can? It is the adcs. When i compare LOL to other games it is CLEAR to see that adc's in this game are overtuned and have ALWAYS been overtuned.
Rebonack (NA)
: Blanket nerfs to Enchanters, Marksmen itemization, and Tanks are sounding like a pretty good deal right now.
No it does not, especially since the main problems are the adc's. Everything else is a "problem" because of adc's and the meta they are dictating.
: Let's be Honest SKT won already
Games are won or lost in the end screen, not before. The truth does not hurt, if it is not the truth. We will see if they win or not when it happens.
Elikain (EUNE)
: DOTA has turn speed, which punishes ranged champions for making incorrect moves against melee opponents. Melees in turn then have time to react and do something before you get hit from range. Also, their balance is completely bonkers which means that any champion is strong enough to delete the other guy. And they have a lot of "protection from arrows" items. Even starting with the first item you buy at the beginning of the game. HotS works completely differently. Since there are no items and any other stats besides your own hero and their kit + talents, most of melees there have gap closers, evades, shields and the like which allows Blizzard to specifically put something in the hero's kit to have an appropriate response to their weakness and buff their strength, if you pick those talents up. In LoL, you can't do this wholeheartedly because you have to account for various other stats you're buying. I'm not denying that "melee VS range" problem doesn't exist, but it's nowhere near the extent people claim it is. Vayne can bully that Malphite all she wants but Doran's Shield, Ninja Tabi's and a Bramble Vest beg to differ against AA champions. Even if you found a way to fix "R VS M" right now, the game would still then be imbalanced due to not being made with that in mind. Ranged champions would then heavily be shat on because there are a lot of items and even melee champs themselves that would be out of line. This problem, to me, sounds like one of the pre-seasonal updates and certainly won't be fixed in a patch or two. --- The meta we all play in came way back in S1. EU's strategy was 1 top, 2 bot, 1 mid and 1 jungler which seemed to obliterate any other strategy there was at the time. So everyone simply adopted it and Riot didn't want to be the ones to dictate what was going to be played where. They balanced the game according to the most accepted way of playing it. If you want to see a change, don't demand it. Be the change you want the community to see. If you find success with it, i see no reason why everyone else wouldn't adapt to play the game your way, if it's viable.
The most accepted way of playing the game came from the most effective way of playing it. It is impposible to change it now unless something is more effective than that, and there is not. I want to see change, but i cannot make it happen, because the changes that are needed are related to overall game balance and numbers instead of any mentality. I want multiple things to be effective, instead of only one, and no mentality will change that, the only thing that can change that is numbers and kit changes. And PLEASE stop with the excuses, how many years has LOL been around? In ALL of those years, they STILL have not adressed the ranged/melle problem when other games have, or have done it from the start. Hell, it has gotten WORSE as now the entire game is geared around adc's because of shitty decisions made by Riot in their class "updates". I would not be complaining about Ranged/melle discrepancy if Riot was actually taking action against it, but they are nort, quite the opposite, they have made the divide even BIGGER. And that is not only with ranged.melle. The same divide was made with adc's/mages where adc's are simply just a better choice more often than not in the damage department. Dota/Smite/Hots All of them are also more or less balanced around the same meta that LOL has. Yet they found the way to make ranged not oppresive and as such their games flourish in diversity of picks in different lanes. Riot is not doing that despite having time, resources, and a problem to solve. I will repeat, they have even made the problem worse and are now "trying" to fix it. And even then, they are not touching adc's or their power, they are nerfing supports. As a support main i can EASILY find that adc's are a problem. Why? Because all of my tools and items that i buy are the most effective by helping the adc. I can support a skirmisher, yet it wont be as effective as supporting an adc. I can support a mage, yet again, it wont be as effective as supporting an adc. This alone shows that the role of adc is NOT balanced and needs severe changes, otherwise the adc's will remain DOMINANT and kill ANY possible diversity in the bot lane.
: Can you play a marksmen top lane as a non tank?
Pentium2 (EUNE)
: Also this "adc meta" is only because tanks are overwhelming, so I would rather call it tank meta.
No, that is not the case. Tanks are being played to protect the adc. It is that simple. Because the adc's are so op and instead of dps they to bps (Burst per second). There is no point to have squishies that will simply get killed. Everything is geared to protect the adc, because now its the only class that does damage that is worth anything.
: Even better when they claim that tanks/supports have absolutely "nothing" contributing to this such problem.
They do contribute to the problem, but they are not the main problem. Can we actually fix the problem itself first instead of targeting fringe things that only contribute to it?
Cowseed (NA)
: Riot may not fully understand the situation or is intentionally not giving a fuck about balance because of the new runes so any changes they make now will go to waste anyways and this _is_ a problem. The boards are moving from discussion the issue or trying to get it into riots heads into trying to be a bigger meme than it's ever been.
The issue has been discussed to death, it is time for action.
Cowseed (NA)
: This ADC upvote farm thing is getting out of hand
These posts exist because Riot does not pay attention to proper discussions (Which have been happening already). If Riot does not listen, the the boards have to get louder and louder, no matter if something is true or not.
Cloud273 (NA)
: What was the first video game you ever played?
Need for speed underground..... Those were the days... Sigh....
Elikain (EUNE)
: So were supports and mages. Mid laners change sometimes but almost all the time are ranged AP champions. Bot lane doesn't work without a support, that being a tank, AP champion or an Enchanter. Junglers are by far the most diverse bunch of champions because there's actual variety there (in my opinion) and top laners are what's currently in the meta, although they are 2nd according to diversity. Your point being is that Riot should change the meta so that Marksmen never have a place in this game?
> Your point being is that Riot should change the meta so that Marksmen never have a place in this game? Not what he was saying. You really like strawmen, don't you? > So were supports and mages. > Mid laners change sometimes but almost all the time are ranged AP champions. Bot lane doesn't work without a support, that being a tank, AP champion or an Enchanter. Junglers are by far the most diverse bunch of champions because there's actual variety there (in my opinion) and top laners are what's currently in the meta, although they are 2nd according to diversity. All of the roles/lanes you mentioned has diversity. On mid you can take adc/mage/assasin/tank/Bruiser/Skirmisher/Juggernaut. On top you can take adc/mage/assasin/tank/Bruiser/Skirmisher/Juggernaut. In the jungle you can take adc/mage/assasin/tank/bruiser/skirmisher/juggernaut. In the support role you can take adc/enchanter/tank/mage. In the bottom damage dealer role, you can only take adc. ONLY 1 class from the entire game. Not even skirmishers like Yasuo, who were DESIGNED with bot lane in mind, cant compete with adc's. The only other real example is mordekaiser, who was only viable because of a broken brute force exp passive. The only mage that really was taken bot (And even then it was so short) was ziggz, and not because he was strong, but because of his fast turret taking and cheese with getting the first tower gold. Do you not see the problem? In DOTA/SMITE?HotS, i can take a mage/skirmisher/juggernaut/adc/assasin easily and LANE with a ranged opponent. In LOL that is nearly impposible. This show that the adc role in LOL is out of whack, it needs changing, because in its position, it is not allowing any other role to be in, because of how strong and MANDATORY it is.
Elikain (EUNE)
: Oh yeah... Marksmen being relevant is clearly bad for the game. /s
: I have no idea why you are saying things like "until Riot changes it" when Ardent has been "gutted" on the PBE for almost an entire week now. I don't understand WHY these posts keep cropping up when the item is going to NEVER be bought next week because it gives a whopping 5% AS and 5 on-hit at level 1 and scales to an even lower value at level 18 compared to live.
Because its PBE, we all know its for bug testing instead of actual changes. Also, if that is the real value they are going for, then they are gutting the item. Again, no finding of the sweetspot. If they were going to gut ardent why wait for MONTHS?
Elikain (EUNE)
: You do know that Riot balanced Cait a few times before she was "gutted"? That's what it means to slow balance something. And RIot can't balance everything out of line in a single patch, there's clearly a priority list and that also depends if they have the correct data to start iterating on possible changes. You can't sit at the discussion table and announce that you're going to be nerfing Censer for the next patch and come unprepared to do so. >my adc's want to still take an ardent support This really isn't a valid argument. Why would you care what your marksman wants you to play? Play whatever you want. That would be the same as you demanding they pick something you'd like to lane with on bot lane. And Fervor Leona is apparently also a thing now and she isn't an Ardent abuser. But that would likely mean you'd have to have a utility jungler to pick it up. Ardent still exists and is relevant but it isn't a necessity for a support to have. Which means you are not forced to pick Enchanters if you don't want to.
Yes, and the fact that she remained a problem for the duration of it before the gutting is the problem. They simply cant find the sweet spot, they either love tap things and do not fix the problem, or they nerf them to hell. I do not want them to balance out everything in a single patch, but when some things are OBIVIOUSLY out of whack, they should take prority. Ardent has been a problem for a long time, still is, it should be a priority. Riot should have enough data by now to know that, hell they should have had that data months ago. Also, my argument is not that my adc's want me to take something. You are either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstaind what i was saying. Ardent, is still too good when compared to many others, same with enchanters. It is not about demand or being forced to. Even in 7.18 when ardent was broken, you were not forced to play anything. What you are saying is also not an argument. You are never forced to play anything. But the fact still remains that some options are still better than others. I am not forced to play enchanters, but in many cases they will simply be better than what i take, just because they buy ardent. THAT is the problem. Ardent is not as broken as it was, but it still is a problem, and it will continue to be a problem until the entire item is changed to be good with not only adc's, but other classes and when the numbers (Or the ability) are changed to have less gold value.
: its because the guy playing kog knows kog. Kog is also not an early game adc, as opposed to cait. And dear cait didn't win lane without her team ganking her lane 24/7. So, yeh, that's bad from C9. And C9 planned to shut down kog with constant 5man parties bot, but, they failed the execution. And kog was never set behind. Look at items and compare cait with kog, similar items at similar times. But, if you were to give WE Kalista, your bot lane would get crushed and then you got no hopes for vitory. If they didn't ban rumble, rumble would've been picked into shen and you'd have a loosing top lane that cannot help bot lane for the 4-5 man parties bot. And its not bronze positioning if you know you either won't die or will trade kills with the enemy adc while you scale better. Bronze positioning is = not knowing what the fuck you are doing or should be doing. C9 failed their execution, as simple as that. WE adc was their best player, hands down. Second was the support.
Yes, there is a lot about knowing how to play kog /s It is so hard to just stand there, facetank shit and right click the enemy out of existance /s
Elikain (EUNE)
: Not sure what you want from them. The moment someone says something on the boards or reddit about something being out of line, you're supposed to see it adjusted immediately in the next patch? If these are your expectations, you're going to be massively disappointed every time because Riot needs data in order to figure out what's wrong and how can they fix it. Sometimes, directly buffing/nerfing something isn't the right call to make but buff/nerf something that's competing for the same spot in order to reach the same level of diversity. Worlds is being played on 7.18 while our game currently is being played on 7.20. You're barking at the wrong tree here because it's already been half cut down. What you see in Worlds is not how our games are playing out on Live. Ardent is still relevant sure. But the point is not to gut it out of existence.
> Not sure what you want from them. > The moment someone says something on the boards or reddit about something being out of line, you're supposed to see it adjusted immediately in the next patch? Not the point he was making. Anyone can see that this was not a good state for the game, yet there were no changes for far more than 1 patch, when 1 patch more often than not is enough to see the strenght of champs and how the meta is operating. > If these are your expectations, you're going to be massively disappointed every time because Riot needs data in order to figure out what's wrong and how can they fix it. Sometimes, directly buffing/nerfing something isn't the right call to make but buff/nerf something that's competing for the same spot in order to reach the same level of diversity. There are some things that you do not needs half a year of data to understand. Riot had enough time to have the data on ardent and how broken it was. And yes, sometimes direct number buffs/nerfs are not the right call, but they are most often the most sensible and good calls. > Worlds is being played on 7.18 while our game currently is being played on 7.20. > You're barking at the wrong tree here because it's already been half cut down. What you see in Worlds is not how our games are playing out on Live. Ardent is still relevant sure. But the point is not to gut it out of existence. Almost every game, my adc's want to still take an ardent support, almost every game i see an ardent support. The games are still being played out like they were in the previous patches. Ardent is not relevant, it is OVERBEARING, still, to this day. If the point is not to gut items/champs out of existance and instead balance slowly, why does Riot ignore that many times themselves?
: Full AD Jarvan does Zed's job but faster in an AOE. Only drawback is thatt he can't get out once he's in
Who needs to get out when your target is dead in seconds?
: ah well i can't say i agree with you, but i do understand, i miss old sion and taric before they deleted them from the game too. If it makes you feel better, im about ready to quit this game altogether because i have recently come to realize that it is rigged and completely garbage.
Both of which are better than they were before and have a better identity than before. They were not deleted, they were improved. And this coming from a taric playeer.
: Gutting Ardent Is The Healthiest Thing Done In Awhile
Im happily i will be able to join a que without the adc screaming. "PICK AN ARDENT SUPPORT REEEEEEEE"
: I guess that's why we saw morde and ziggs bot for a good 6 months.
Yeah, we saw both of them, but you forget WHY we saw them. Ziggz was seen for a time bot, NOT because he was strong, but because of his turret killing ability, at the time when he was "popular" in bot, the only reason he was taken to cheese a quick first tower kill for massive gold. And Morde was seen bot because he was insanely overtuned, hell, they needed to give him a COMPLETELY BROKEN mechanic in the form of free exp gain, so he woulc brute force through the adc's in lane. This also does not change the fact that ONLY these TWO champs ever gained proper "popularity" on bot, both for broken reasons. You still ignore the main point about how adc's are mandatory. Wow, you provided two fringe examples of broken (At the time) champs in the adc role. I can go to smite, dota or HotS and bring you 10 at least who do not need to be broken to play in a duo lane.
: I'm actually quite happy with the state of the game so I easily get pissed by people who can't do anything but complaining. The metas have been switching every 6 months or so, so if you are not happy with the current meta you can just switch to another game until the meta changes and fits your playstyle. And no i'm not an adc main, I play veigar and ww mostly.
Metas switch, yet in every meta adc's were a staple. Strange how that works.
Elikain (EUNE)
: You do have options to combat Marksmen and those are natural assassins that are mobile and have enough burst to take them down. So why aren't these champions being played if Marksmen are unstoppable? And the reason is not "because they're shit in this meta". If you have a problem with a champion, you pick a champion that counters them or can survive their harass. If this basic thing isn't being done, there's no point bothering Riot to artificially nerf it so that you can play whatever you want and beat a Marksman. I'm not saying that some of them aren't the problem but i don't accept that Marksmen are overtuned at all. Don't confuse some other systems that favor Marksmen and attribute this power creep to them. If Ardent is too powerful on them, the obvious solution is to nerf Ardent, is it not? Because i definitely don't see why an entire class needs to be looked at because of an item that supports build to assist Marksmen in damage dealing.
> You do have options to combat Marksmen and those are natural assassins that are mobile and have enough burst to take them down. So why aren't these champions being played if Marksmen are unstoppable? And the reason is not "because they're shit in this meta". Because they have been gutted. What is the point of an assasin if an adc assasinates better and has a support to keep him safe. If assasins could actually RELIABLY assasinate, you might have a point, but that is not the case. > If you have a problem with a champion, you pick a champion that counters them or can survive their harass. If this basic thing isn't being done, there's no point bothering Riot to artificially nerf it so that you can play whatever you want and beat a Marksman. I'm not saying that some of them aren't the problem but i don't accept that Marksmen are overtuned at all. Don't confuse some other systems that favor Marksmen and attribute this power creep to them. To this day, no other class besides adc's is playable on bot as a damage dealer. In comparison, in DOTA you have BOTH ranged and melle carries, even MAGES occupying the slot of a damage dealer + support. Same with Smite, even Hots allows it. How is it that this problem only exists in LOL, and does that not show a problem to you? > If Ardent is too powerful on them, the obvious solution is to nerf Ardent, is it not? Because i definitely don't see why an entire class needs to be looked at because of an item that supports build to assist Marksmen in damage dealing. You would have a point if Ardent was the ONLY issue. It is not however, there are many more other issues, that also existed before the op ardent shite.
: He just said it was a problem and they've been looking into it, why continue to chastise him?
How long do you have to look at something to fix it? The problems of the class are quite clear and existed from BLOODY SEASON 3!
AriCei (NA)
: Sorry had better things to do than "refute" your "points"..
Of course, the good old " I don't have time excuse" that is used by people that lost any argument.
Knoyle (NA)
: But wasn't he also responsible for the Warwick rework?
1 good thing, does not negate 99 shit things.
: Nope. The people who are bold enough to pick up the new champion, learn them in and out, and use them in Ranked or learn their counters are the ones favored. Fortune favors the bold. __________________ Other than that, they need data as soon as possible and Ranked game data is best game data. We did however get 2 more bans than we've ever had before, so take advantage of being able to ban no matter what pick you are. Better still, buy the champ, learn how they work, and be ready with your comfortable Champions while they try to play with their inexperienced new Champion.
But they will invitably be permabanned for half a week at least. So what is the point of it being allowed? It just eats a ban slot you could use for others. And no fortune does not favor the bold, as those "bold" people fuck up and thus ruin their entire team.
: You're confusing HotS chest system with League chest system.....
Not really. From what i have observed the chances of getting a skin (And an actual skin, not a recolour) in LOL are higher. In HotS even if yo get swamped with boxes, more often than not they will contain useless shite. From what i have also observed, the quality of chromas in LOL is higher than what you can get in HotS. And again, the point remains, if you want a skin/chroma, you will buy it, instead of trying to pray to RNG gods to get it. Riot should not give away chromas or even skins for free, there is no reason to. If people want a product, they will buy it, simple as that.
Dasdi96 (NA)
: The reason why I stopped playing support at all. It has degraded into playing a bunch of items and not an actual champion. I can miss all my skillshots but it won't matter as long as I clicked my shield on the adc. Season 4/5 supporting was much more fun despite having less gold.
Take a support, on ranked, and use ONLY your item actives, no skills. Tell me how it goes.
: PSA to Riot. Items are not supports.
As a support main i will tell you what i tell everyone complaining about this non-issue. 1. Take a support, on ranked, and use ONLY your item actives, no skills. 2. If you think that what support you take does not matter at all, try to play a few different ones with different adc combinations. Because there IS a difference, especially when considering the enemy team comp too. What you are saying here, is simply not true. BECAUSE everyone has the same items, the champ kits are the things that matter the most, because everyone can buy the same items. Previously items made or broke a champ, not anymore, because everyone has the SAME items. Which is not a bad thing at all. Stop with the bullshit please, this comes from a support main.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AoYwULJe,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-14T05:42:03.303+0000) > > Ideas come from every game, popular, unpopular, it does not matter. It is a fact that HotS in the grand scheme of things is quite irelevant in the market. The current MOBA kings are still SMITE, DOTA and LOL. Ehm...... I am sorry to break it up to you, buddy, but HotS has already reached Smite. The current moba kings are HotS, DotA2 and LoL. > > Furthermore, your assesion that LOL has been copying ideas from HotS is not entirely correct, as currently, the ideas used by Riot are circulating through the entire industry and were not started by HotS. Yeah, it's a pure coincidence that Riot always releases those features just a couple months after HotS released them. It's a pure coincidence that Riot tried to implement shorter games, a monster that pushes the lane, recolours and stickers.... after HotS did those things. Let me give you a sneak peek of the future: we will also get different announcers, buyable in the store. Because HotS has those.
> Ehm...... I am sorry to break it up to you, buddy, but HotS has already reached Smite. > > The current moba kings are HotS, DotA2 and LoL. While HotS is popular, it stil lhas not overtaken smite. > Yeah, it's a pure coincidence that Riot always releases those features just a couple months after HotS released them. It's a pure coincidence that Riot tried to implement shorter games, a monster that pushes the lane, recolours and stickers.... after HotS did those things. Let me give you a sneak peek of the future: we will also get different announcers, buyable in the store. Because HotS has those. Ah, you are one of those guys. You probably argued that paladins is also a rip off from overwatch, right? You do realize that features like these require time to not only announce but also make? Saying that Riot copies Hots, is simply incorrect, simply due to time requirements. HotS implemented shorter games from the very start of its existance, Riot is kinda late to the party with your assertions. Monster that pushes lane is nothing new either in Mobas. Same with recolours, and stickers (Which LOL does not have, have you played the game at all). Also, buyable announcers already exist in Dota, so are you claiming that HotS copied many things from Dota? Or do your assertions only apply to Riot, because you want free shit and HotS is the only game that really gives it to you?
: > [{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AoYwULJe,comment-id=0003000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2017-10-14T05:42:55.497+0000) > > No i can't. You made the statement, you are the one needing to answer the question. Yeah, because it's not like it's self-explanatory.... Two games are both good and offer the same feature. One game offers that feature for free, the other game has you pay to have it. > > Your statement is not entirely correct either, and as a player of HotS i can tel you, you are full of shite. I've been playing HotS since beta and you're the one who's full of shite. Pro tip: anyone reading this conversation can download the game and see who is correct. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
Played it since beta too, so what. And no, it is not the same feature, these features are different. Its like saying that apples and oranges are the same thing, because they are fruits. There are key differences in both systems.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AoYwULJe,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-10-14T05:40:13.988+0000) > > Have you ever played HotS? They do not give shit for free how you think they do. It is random chest loot (Simmilar to what we have with our crafting system). So yes, while you CAN receive a chroma or even a skin from a chest that you get by playing, the chances are so low its not worth to wait, its better to just buy the skin. > > What you are saying is not entirely correct and ignores the entire context of how HotS loot is presented. This sounds like someone who has never played HotS but has heard about it. ^ Buddy, HotS pretty much gives you a loot chest EVERY DAY..... _if you don't play much at all!!_ Buddy, HotS pretty much gives you a cool skin EVERY THREE CHESTS. Do the maths.
Someone who HAS played Hots, mains Tasadar and has a pretty good track record. I have played it. And sorry, those loot chests matter shit, because yet again, the loot is RANDOM and the chest contain useless things such as sprays and icons. Again, the chance of getting a skin you want, are incredibly low. It is far more simple to buy them (Which people do).
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Dextix LT

Level 86 (EUNE)
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