: Thresh. I seriously hate what they did to his character. He went from being a sadistic jailer who tortures and abuses inmates to the point of driving them insane, to just... He tortures 'living' relics. He scratched a mirror. He read words out of a book and then didn't finish sentences. Not to mention the fact that he got away with it purely because the monks of the Blessed Isles were too creeped out by him to conduct a proper investigation, EVEN THOUGH they suspected something was off. Like... Really? Nevermind the fact that he also have no context for the relics in question, like why a mirror has a soul inside it to begin with. Given what his idea of 'torture' is during life, it makes it harder to take him seriously as sadistic wraith.
There is a fan project that aims to rebuild the old lore while making it more cohesive and fix its shortcomings. Here's a link to it if you're interested! https://lolcbp.wordpress.com Also argh I'm spamming people with this message, but I just wanna make people happy by connecting them back with what they like.
Arakadia (NA)
: Not a fan of new Karma lore. Really liked old Karma lore.
There is a fan project that aims to rebuild the old lore while making it more cohesive and fix its shortcomings. Here's a link to it if you're interested! https://lolcbp.wordpress.com
: Leona. They changed the core of her character, which was that she was compassionate and gallant warrior willing to die rather than take someone else's life because she believed that the worth of a warrior was in their ability to defend and protect, to someone who is a sun worshiping zealot who killed without a second thought because she is fueled by rage and a desire for vengeance. The world building is really good for mount targon now, but i just can't accept the new characterization. {{sticker:sg-janna}}
There is a fan project that aims to rebuild the old lore while making it more cohesive and fix its shortcomings. Here's a link to it if you're interested! https://lolcbp.wordpress.com Leona will keep her original characterization, though I haven't checked yet how they're gonna handle the Targon worldbuilding. I have a feeling it will be similar just without the space parasites plot point.
: Janna. Because her lore update completely took away everything that originally made her Janna. And even with the new Zaun and Piltover city-states, you could have still kept her old lore. In fact, the new worldbuilding combined with her old lore could have made some very interesting stories, such as how she's originally from Zaun but instead defected to Piltover, unlike Jinx or Ekko. But instead she's now a wind spirit who kinda seems randomly placed in the world... Like, new Janna is okay, but she's not the same character we knew anymore. I miss her. I was going to say Katarina, but now that I think of it, I think I actually do like a couple things about her new lore. Most of my qualms for that come from how poorly-written it is, so I don't think she needs a complete lore revert. Otherwise, I would probably combine her old and new lore in some way.
There is a fan project that aims to rebuild the old lore while making it more cohesive and fix its shortcomings. Here's a link to it if you're interested! https://lolcbp.wordpress.com I haven't checked what they're aiming to write for Kata, but I heard they decided to not use Sion's old lore as it was from the alpha version of the game? Kata was featured in that ancient version and that isn't being used in this project. So I have a feeling they are kinda making a combination of her old and new one.
: Varus, Pantheon, Dr Mundo, maybe even Lissandra. Varus being that family man who chose duty over his family and regretting it was a really compelling story. It could still work with the Darkin aspect, and maybe even give us a Darkin that sympathizes with their host, providing a brand new dynamic. The Valmar and Kai story is compelling as well, but it was just so far removed from what Varus was before. Pantheon needs to be a character now, instead of Atreus being erased by a bunch of Targonians, essentially making him a puppet. The other Targon Aspects don't work like this, so why does he? It makes him less interesting rather than more. I was really sucked into Atreus' portion of the story, that part is solid. Mundo is my odd choice; for whatever reason, it bothers me that he's not an actual doctor anymore. What does that even really add? He was much cooler and scarier when he was this messed up Hyde monster that chose to turn himself into this on purpose. He seems dumb and doesn't talk so good, but he knows how to beef people up, he knows how to experiment on people, and he even experiments on himself. Sado-masochism is his thing, he tortures himself, too. Lissandra needs to go back to being a true villain. She needs to serve the Watchers, to believe in their twisted ideology. I don't know why they gave her the "secretly a good guy" treatment. I'm sure I'm missing some big ones.
There is a fan project that aims to rebuild the old lore while making it more cohesive and fix its shortcomings, and all of these characters will be true to their origin stories. Here's a link to it if you're interested https://lolcbp.wordpress.com Also I gotta copy-paste this to people on this thread so they could all see, as there's no messaging system that I'm aware of!
: There are 3 ninjas in this game (4 if you include the pikachu), a viking, and a character designed exactly like Sun Wukong from Journey to the West, which they didn’t even bother to change his name. My point being, they could have easily made a story about a particularly unique and interesting Spartan if they wanted. They instead tied him to this space crap that was never remotely what the character was involved with. I’m not saying the old lore was high art. It sure wasn’t. But then, nether is the new Pantheon lore.
There is a fan project that aims to rebuild the old lore while making it more cohesive and fix its shortcomings. Pantheon will be developed there on the basis of his old lore, without any alien spirits and such. If you're interested, here's the link https://lolcbp.wordpress.com
SEKAI (OCE)
: For the pitfalls of moral relativism, the problem in these writings is NOT moral relativism. It is moral confusion. In a lot of writing we see characters often have contradictory morals and flip flop wildly (and I do mean, WILDLY) depending on circumstance, and the writer's clearly confused endeavour that almost exclusively only portray evil characters in a good light and good characters in a bad light in a F-grade attempt at presenting nuance. As I was saying, it is not moral relativism that is killing the writing, but a blatant morally confused and incompetent characterisation, narrative, and writers.
This is correct. The issue is how characters get their morals flipped after they get updated. When we look at the promo material for Diana as an example, she is dark, violent and remorseless. People who connected to Diana did so because they saw a rebel who has been wronged, who is breaking free and now returning the favour. When her lore got updated, it was as if Riot narrative got confused and tried to spotlight players' connection to her but completely missed the point *how* players connected to her. They wrote her as a good and hopeful character, who helps an old lady and flees the scene of murdered Solari Elders because she's confused. Let me rephrase. It's as if she's been written as Lux, because Lux is a very popular character and Lux is a good girl. ~~ Meanwhile, Leona and Kayle, who were "born", "formed" within society/culture that leans on zealotry, were pushed to be zealots even though they weren't that in their release states. As if Riot narrative misunderstood the core of their characters, which is pretty hard to believe. Leona originally was literally written as willing to sacrifice her own life before taking another. How it didn't occur to any of the narrative folks or at least editors that writing her as being fuelled by murderous rage against Diana was completely 180 from her original characterization, is simply bizarre.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zapzya,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9chvtwMp,comment-id=000000010000000000000001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T23:42:55.672+0000) > > When the story starts moving forward, they will kill off characters eventually. At least it is plausible in universe that they can die and the writers have that option open. Yeah, that's not going to happen. At least not characters that are playable, and that's who i was talking about. > > I am not arguing that Riot is perfect or that they won’t make mistakes. I am sayin that the new world is a much stronger and more flexible setting for stories. And i'm saying that old world, with some changes, sure, would be much, much better for what Riot is trying to set up. > > You must never read the threads praising great stories then, like Where Icathia Once Stood. If you are going to talk about the lore, form your own opinion after reading it instead of parroting every complaint you see, although I suspect you’ll hate it simply because you want to at this point. I'm parroting complaints? Oh my, oh my, that's funny. I'm only reading what Riot is currently retconning, and it paints a pretty bleak future for the fluff. I refuse to read any stories other than character bios from this new lore, because i refuse to acknowledge it as canon.
The problems of new lore are not the quality of writing. The problems are that this world now has no distinctive features to make it stand apart from other fictional universes. Lotr has the rings. Narnia has Aslan and human protagonists coming from real world. Last airbender has the avatars. League of Legends had League of Legends aka IoW. Now it's just a bunch of disjointed stories about entirely random people during random points in their lives. Not to mention that characters regularly get erased in reworks, not a good thing for a game where people are supposed to attach to characters. League's lore was supposed to put characters front and center, not sacrifice them for the sake of overreaching story. And Riot clearly stated they are now using characters to serve a story when it should be the other way around. A whole other point is how new lore is straight out illogical in many places but tries to be all cool and deep.
: ''gameplay clarity'' haha as if that means anything, if gameplay clartiy was a thing zed wouldn't be so armored nor would ashe and sivir be in their skins, plenty of contradicting examples, it's like with kai`sai ''we gave her cleavage and the deepest v-line ever so people can tell she's human'' ignoring the fact that even without that she still looks 100% completely human, they just invent a ''problem'' so they cant put their ''solution'' on it
Exactly. The "gameplay clarity" is just an excuse to keep copy-pasting the same visual design on more female champions.
: This. She's still one of the most covered champions in the game. I don't know what kind of strip clubs OP has been to, but they must not be very hot if the strippers are covered head to toe 99% of the time. Having a bodysuit doesn't make her dressed like {{champion:28}}. I get that not having full armor isn't something that a lot of people like, but comparing her to a stripper and saying she should get a "lap dance skin", among other things, are some of the biggest exaggerations I've seen lately in terms of champion design.
Covered means very little compared to how a character is presented. Evelynn is blue so we might as well call her completely covered too. So many people have compared these reworks to League of Angels and for a good reason. Kayle's new design has elements and shapes that can directly be traced over Dawnbringer Riven and Kai'sa's bodysuit. The design is clearly made to emphasize her thighs, breasts and so on. A normal human reaction to something that goes against what a character originally represented, is to compare the new thing in the way we see here.
Zapzya (OCE)
: Kayle’s colour palate: What happened to the fire?
You're absolutely right. I knew that her new colours looked smudged for some reason... Fiery red, golden armour and white large wings were her thing!
: The level of ungratefulness in this is overwhelming.
Ungrateful? You claim I should be grateful for them erasing something I liked? I'm the one who is/is not giving them money.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: It was a given Riot will fuck it up, that's pretty typical of reworks. I mean, why the fuck does she wear a skin tight suit and no armor on abdomen?
The only reason I see is if they think this way she and her skins will sell more. Nothing else comes to mind as a possible explanation.
Rioter Comments
: Thank you so much MM! And It's kinda amazing to hear someone say sorry on the boards. (Watch out you'll change its branding) I know it often seems like we do stuff without a plan (and sometimes it's true that rito's left hand doesn't know what its right hand is doing). But we are passionate about this game, this world, and making stuff that people like. Sometimes that means favoring what the majority wants over what the minority wants-- and sometimes we make mistakes. But we are always trying to understand and we are just people trying-trying-trying our best. ThanX{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
The new character is all fine and dandy, melodramatic and full of rage, but this is not the main problem people have been screaming about on Boards and reddit, in Discord servers and other places. New character is not some people's cup of tea, yes, but this is not the problem. The problem is that old Aatrox was deleted. I will again refer to this comment as it shows *exactly* the core of this situation: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/8ipQEKvE-aatrox-the-darkin-blade-champion-trailer-league-of-legends?comment=000900020007
: New Aatrox model
I don't like how he stands hunched. I always liked him as a lean swordsman. Now he's a hulking brute.
: Remminder, you’re listening to just the “highlight reel” of Aatrox murdering people— not the full VO experience we mapped for walking from fountain, lanning, team fight, late game, challenging people, etc... etc.. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
I said this many times, and I'll say it again. Drastic changes to champions' personalities will always be met with a very strongly split playerbase. This just creates problems. If the creative teams liked a certain idea, they should have made a brand new champion using that idea, not deleting an old champion so that they could replace them with their new idea. Trundle, Galio, Poppy, Varus, now Aatrox, the list goes on, you are alienating a very large part of playerbase that has been tied to, if not lore, then to their favourite champions. Old Aatrox was envisioned as an elegant, sinewy left-handed swordsman, turning the tides of war, always helping the losing side, encouraging more bloodshed. Prolonging war, essentially. New Aatrox is a hulking brute. I am still heartbroken from the change to Viktor's lore. He is a completely different character now.
: If Brand were a melee champ
lel he could get this skin for the next April Fool's
: Resistance Skin line Concepts...?
Maybe someone from Demacia? They seem like they would join the resistance
: Discover Ionia | /dev diary - League of Legends
Another lore update that's a mess. Irelia turned into a dancer cause "it fits with her being a woman", Karma ruined, lee sin is now generic, everything is utterly generic
Nylisa (EUW)
: Stains on a Name - Irelia color story
I liked her more when she learned a fighting technique from her father, not dancing. I also think she was more badass when she was almost killed by Noxians, then her soul tied to her blades by Soraka.
: Thanks for reaching out :-) I agree with you on many points, and we absolutely will try to avoid this sort of thing, going forward. In the case of Varus, the story content and video was all already decided before I started at Riot, but I was interested to see how it was received. I'd much rather spend time foreshadowing changes in a way that feels organic and true to existing characters, than completely overhauling in one blast. And I hope you'll hold us to our word on that, and keep checking in to let us know how you think we're doing. :-)
Old Varus was a grieving father. His son had died because of his own decisions. This was utterly erased in the new lore.
: Wrote a Viktor Analysis that I thought I would share
You're right, and you literally pulled exampled from the text itself.
DyQuill (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Tendrian,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0008000500000003,timestamp=2017-12-08T00:54:54.630+0000) > > While I mostly care about Varus, it would sure be nice to get a general statement about the direction/vision of the lore team. Will future rewrites be more conservative/mindful of existing backstory, or can we expect more of what is basically just replacing the old characters with new ones? I believe for a decent number of people, at least here on the boards, it depends on the answer to that question if they have any interest of engaging with the new stuff that's about to come. Yeah, these are some really good questions, and I'll be bringing it up with the broader team involved with Narrative. Good call out!
Sir, I see you replied basically only to those suggestions that are already aligned with the general direction that the Narrative wants to go. The sad truth is that there are no champions left that I cared about, whose lore didn't get retconned into something I don't like; something that fundamentally changed their character. I am not interested in the process of creation of the new lore. It won't appease me. The passionate people have spoken loud and clear: we want old Varus back. I don't understand why Narrative is incapable of saying, "we made a mistake, we'll go back and fix it". Alll other Riot teams do this. Even Patreon did this. The music video is salvageable. The comics are salvageable. Video features Varus only at the last moment - prior to that, there's no indication that the video is about him. Comics can change text, they can be cut into two different stories. Make new characters for your new stories.
iLBGAMing (EUW)
: The Development Process of the new Varus Splash
The face has the problem in the selected version for the splash, it's good everywhere else; and the anatomy of the chest is fine everywhere except in the final step of the splash. I kinda knew it. Oh if only they would agree to change it.
: Could it be possible that It's all Pulsefire Ezreal's Fault?
So it's Ezreal's fault the Retcon happened? Darn!
333lom (EUNE)
: Can we talk about this new Varus splash
His torso looks like a balloon in the new one xd Yea the face irks me too
: ***
Yea he definitely looks inhuman in the new splash, but I'd argue not beautiful at all.
: I would really like to see a lot of the underlying hurt and anger be answered for. I feel like when Riot answers things in a lot of threads they pick up on really easy questions and praise and a lot of the really well thought out and carefully crafted criticism gets unanswered because it would be too difficult for Riot to justify... or if it does get answered it's basically, "Yea, we fucked up. Too bad/We'll learn." Which is an _enourmous_ copout. Is that really the tone that Riot is going to set for their players moving forward?
Why don't they just suck it up and write a new piece of text? Leave videos as flavour AU stuff.
: > [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=1fBLUb9W,comment-id=001800020000000200000000000000000000000000040000,timestamp=2017-12-05T03:08:06.578+0000) > > Cool, we've been talking about some options today on what we might do. Conversation still seems to be going strong here tho, and don't want to sidestep that, so for now going to continue to monitor Boards and beyond. I can predict what you guys are going to say! 1) An empty apology to anyone hurt or angry at the change to Varus. Empty, because I haven't see one Rioter that truly felt sorry for anyone hurt by the new lore.. 2) An arrogant confirmation that the changes will stay. You'll talk about how the "story potential is worth the divisive nature of the change," even though we will NEVER get to see that change in action. (Some of us are still waiting for that big Freljord/Trundle story promised in 2013!) 3) A lengthy section talking about the mythical "internal discussions that took place," even though there will be no proof of these talks offered at all. You'll also ask that we take your word for it, even though you guys lost the right to ask for that a looooong time ago. (Same shit happened with Freljord AND with the Great Retcon.) 4) A complete lie that Riot will "take the feelings of players more into consideration in the future" and that Riot will "learn from this." (Been there, done that, bought the shirt, showed the slides and went back to work.) It will also be written by one Rioter with no input from anyone else involved in the Varus story because they're busy screwing up the next champion or can't be bothered to deal with any negativity. Am I cynical? Absolutely. I've seen Riot do this exact thing too many times to not be. Maybe you guys will surprise me (and I look forward to that happening), but I've been down this exact same road too many times.
I'm saving your comment. You're right, this is exactly who it's going to go, they're a bunch of arrogant know-it-alls.
Rebonack (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Talos of Altmora,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=bjVjdRO6,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:16:59.675+0000) > > Actually, until she found that book, she only had a gut feeling, and in my book a gut feeling is pretty much worthless as evidence. In fact, we know the Solari kill heretics, so the fact that they didn't kill her suggests that her arguments were so laughably bad they didn't see a need to. > > Taric is the only Aspect I tolerate. However, that doesn't mean I like him. he went up the moutan.. and the aspect basically told him he was right all long. That flower incident bugs the crap out of me because I see the lives of those soldiers as having more value then the flower (which was on it's way out, given that it's the only one of it's kind). However, his goal is admirable and makes me think of him as the Token Good Teammate, I'll throw my hat in here because this is a topic I find interesting fantasy writing. The League universe, near as I can tell, has no ethical absolutes. There is no 'ought'. Good and evil aren't things. Perhaps the closest equivalent would be the cycle of reincarnation that Naga defines, which is what makes the Shadow Isles (and probably the Void) so 'evil' since they appear to warp or break that cycle. Because in order for 'ought' to exist, you need an external source of ethical absolutes, whether that be a being (as in most monotheistic religions) or a force (as in traditional D&D cosmology). In League's universe, the lives of those people are no more important than the lives of a flower. Or a frog. Or a banana tree. They have no ethical value because ethics isn't a thing. They have moral (cultural) value, though. To Demacia or Noxus, those lives are without question more important than that flower. But from the perspective of the Aspect, they aren't. This is the inescapable truth of universes without ethical foundation.
I think it would have been much better to have an aspect with no human ethics as a singular character; not a human being which is inhabited by one. For simplicity's sake - sure it could be an interesting idea in a book or a movie to be explored, how other characters and viewers would react to such a character, but considering the fact that League is supposed to be based on first-sight characters, wouldn't it be better to make it clear what's human behaves like a human, and what's not, doesn't? Cause here's the evidence what such character creates in a videogame like League - confusion in people who are asking, "why is Taric behaving this way?"
: > Not necessarily, but you are among the only people who think that Zoe not receiving punishment for her "crimes" is some sort of objective literary criticism. There are many great works featuring characters who commit horrible acts and never receive their just desserts. And why not? Art often imitates life, and in life there is no guarantee that a bad person will receive punishment for something bad they did. Why should you expect fiction to conform to your world view? You know, your right. Fiction does not confirm to my worldview, I never said that it should. However, Zoe is ment to be a sympathetic character. Her art direction and playstyle fit this, but her action s in the lore do not. Targon already has enough unlikable characters, and when I first saw Zoe I thought she might be different. She proved herself to be just as unsympathic as the rest. This, along with her inability to take responsibility for her actions, means that I see the actions of the guardsmen fairly reasonable. However, the Rioter that responded to me on this point disagreed, and considering e didn't bring up the point of Zoe being a Karma Houdini, I can assume the lore team didn't intended this. Hell, he tried to justify Zoe's actions. My point is, Zoe's lore does not paint a good picture of the aspects or her as a character. She is supposed to be this cute, charming girl who's more clever than she looks. Instead, what we have here is a child with more power than anyone quite frankely deserves. She's proven herself to be dangerous, even when not tending to be hostile. She makes a far better villain than anything else at this point. > Any problems with Zoe are likely similar to the problems with Jinx: the reality of her horrific actions are jarringly inconsistent with her innocent presentation by Riot. Zoe being a karma houdini is not in of itself bad. Jinx was never presented as anything less than a crazy person who does what she does out of boredom. Yes, she's more than that, but at the same time Jinx is not a good person and no one disputes it. Neither is Zoe, but because of her age and 'innocence' people leap up to defend her. Moreover, when I think Jinx is next in-line for Zoe's aspect, then you definitely have a problem.
In short, Zoe's lore doesn't fit the kind of character she's supposed to be, I believe. This is evident by how many people feel her lore is disjointed. We can try and find justifications, but what's the point of doing that, when stories are supposed to feel natural on their own? Honestly, Riot's Narrative and Worldbuilding teams are very weak. They may be capable of producing okay new content, but usually it feels like it flies past the mark, and the reworks of old lores are always terrible - every one of them caused shock, anger and disappointment from mains. A good rework would be the one which produces no angry people, not the one which causes massive polarization of consumers. Worst of all, they don't take notes of any critic. But sure, I guess I'll be downvoted because I dare speak my mind, and not mindlessly praise whatever the worldbuilding team releases.
: Void =/= darkin. More, I cannot say...
> Kassadin's days are numbered, he's being taken by corruption > Peacefully raising a family until his daughter was taken Why does this resemble old Varus lore so much?! Kassadin was not this, he was an explorer whose main motive was stopping the void and closing rifts. His daughter was collateral damage, and while he still harboured hope he will save her one day, he looked at greater things than just personal vendetta. He was motivated by saving the world, not his daughter. That new bio cannot replace Varus, as his family cannot be saved, they're dead for good. Old Kassadin fights for the greater good, while old Varus doesn't care about the world, and the corruption he's freeing. He also willingly chose corruption, while Kass was simply altered by the void on accident. I liked both of these characters just the way they were, I don't see any logic for these kinds of changes
: ***
Oh my God this. He lost his child, and Riot thinks "it's just a dead wife trope" ? Just a trope? How dare they do this to Varus.
: I honestly believe when they were writing Varus and planning on releasing his new lore they put their hearts and souls into it. I believe they thought it would go over a lot better than it has in time, like when Jayce's new lore was released and people were freaking out about Viktor. But the issue is that Viktor's lore had yet to come out, so there was room for growth and development. With Varus it seems they botched the release. They could have tried to soften the blow, talk to the community as they did when Jayce was released, but so far I haven't seen really anything at all. I just hope we get a response soon.
Just a note, Viktor mains are in great majority unsatisfied with the new lore too. It also altered his character and removed depth, just added pointless details. Ask anyone on the mains Discord...
IDarkIFire (EUNE)
: Also, not everyone has the time or ability to write long structured exposes - the long posts that you see around are the eloquent players that have actually taken the time to express themselves. I doubt that is all of the ones that are affected, just those who didn't say "screw that i'm out" and actually took the time to say something on the matter.
Yea... there are a lot of people that just got angry and left
: "Don't change what wasn't broken" Lord that's a bad argument, with that logic were you with the group apposed to the Swain VGU? Honest to god I'm curious, because I shit you not their entire argument against his rework was fundamentally the same as what you've told me. Like be real, what isn't broken shouldn't be immune to recycling either. Edit: Well this comment went from +5 to 1. That implies to me that 4 people think that just like Varus lore, Swain character doesn't need recycling.
Swain really needs a change, his model is so outdated they can't make new skins for him
Tendrian (EUW)
: Since both users and Rioters have been claiming that Varus old lore was "complete" or a "dead end"..
I like this a lot! Even though old lore of Varus was based on a "trope" where he goes on vengeance for his family, oh look! Batman is fighting crime because the death of his parents! Tropes aren't bad by default. They can be expanded upon and created into a very compelling story. Old lore of Varus resonated with us, and it should be kept, Riot!
Mogarl (NA)
: I'm trying really hard to like it but there are a bunch of small things that are just off. Things I would like to see addressed. Widen his stance and put his right foot on the ground. His upper body says standing while his legs say running. Fix whatever weird perspective funk is going on with the staff. The more I look at it the stranger it seems. Repolish the textures on most of Viktor. There is a weird shaky effect going on and it lowers the quality of the splash. Ordered from what I feel is highest to lowest priority.
https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-pbe-feedback/Gp5ZXAXb-viktors-deathsworn-splashart A thread on pbe
Shrub64 (NA)
: Zed and Viktor are ripped, I don't know what you're on about.
We can't even see Viktor properly in the splash... and the abs look really poorly drawn.
: I've been echoing this viewpoint since the Machine Herald's lore was updated. He has become thoroughly one-dimensional; and - I've said it before - has sacrificed a huge amount of his personality and motivation either for the sake of streamlining, or because the writer/management simply lacked the subtlety to grasp his personality and/or journey. In his old lore, Viktor went through a dramatic series of changes in personality, stemming entirely from the catalyst point that was Blitzcrank. He was betrayed by his superior, then peers, then justice system, and spiralled into a crippling depression. He become obsessed with proving himself to be better than those who stole credit for his work, transforming his body (and possibly mind) with experimental technology. The end result, however, was NOT murderous rampage or isolated science - no - Viktor began to realise that what he was doing was bigger than himself. He realised that his technology had **society-bending** potential; and, when he reemerged from his isolated self-mutilation binge, he was different. The kind of different that is frightening. He was smarter. He was stronger. His sophistication confounded scientist and citizen, alike - there was no precedent for what he was. And his mind was frighteningly fixated on only one thing - something he referred to as the "Glorious Evolution". He was not yet dangerous; but his obsession seemed that of a fanatic. The Augmented cyborg was unbalanced, and unlike any other human. And the worst part of all of this, was that nobody could think like him. Nobody could ever know, for certain, whether his intentions were benevolent, or sinister, in design. ---- #BUT NEW VIKTOR... ... does not change. He does not develop. He is obsessed, but only in the sense that evolving mankind is something of a pet project that other jerks don't seem to understand. His transformation from man to robot is absurdly depicted - as though he could have done it anytime, and was simply putting it off until he had a 3 week vacation! In spite of this, he tries to kill Jayce. In a completely ABSURD scenario in which only a man pre-inclined towards murder would attempt such an act. It's utterly ridiculous, poorly paced, and a slap in the face of a very complex character that, unfortunately, was never given an opportunity to be truly fleshed out. ---------------- ---------------- #Let me just say... ... That Viktor messing with free will to prevent accidents is not evil, by definition. In fact, it's a great point to home in on and (SUBTLY) add facets to his actions. After all, Vik is incredibly logical - he may be completely secure in the fact that he will never take over a person's brain in its entirety; but may be able to disable the use of weapons in unsanctioned fashions, or prevent people, say, falling off cliffs on accident. Safety switches. But that kind of thing, while good in benevolent situations, would be **horrible** in a dystopian setting. That said, Viktor controlling robots to kill Jayce with is flat-out absurd.
Yes yes this, he has become one-dimensional. I don't understand how people don't see this. > In his old lore, Viktor went through a dramatic series of changes in personality, stemming entirely from the catalyst point that was Blitzcrank. He was betrayed by his superior, then peers, then justice system, and spiralled into a crippling depression. He become obsessed with proving himself to be better than those who stole credit for his work, transforming his body (and possibly mind) with experimental technology. **Yes this you said it perfectly.** Thank you. But hey dude, imagine if someone took away your free will. That's a totalitarian dictatorship and nobody likes that - so that's... bad. I don't think it's logical to take away free will. That only degrades us as a species. Blitzcrank was 100% logical machine before he gained sentience and free will. After he gained it, he became 100% better, didn't he? Hm so you say only in benevolent situations? I don't know if I'd agree with that still, it's too far away from freedom of will.
GreenLore (EUW)
: > "Viktor was censured for violating basic human dignity" – the way the new lore is written, Viktor indeed did violate basic human dignity. Controlling someone, for whatever reason, is immoral. This is what makes Viktor a villain. Sure he doesn't cackle and twirl a mustache, but this is the biggest red light possible. Originally, there was nothing saying Viktor's work was malicious. All we ever knew was that it was groundbreaking and that it had the potential to change the world. More about this in the last paragraph. Viktors old lore was always ambigious. Sure he started out as a scientist who tried to help humanity,but his old lore specifically said that his desire to help humanity was **replaced** by his obsession for the glorious evolution. Add Jayces lore on top of that and you got the impression that Viktor was of questionable morality at best and a full villain at worst. Also I don't see how this part of the new lore makes him a villain,considering that he wanted to control the workers not because he wanted to make them slaves or anything like that,but because he wanted to prevent errors that threatened the workers and their coworkers.He wanted to make the working site a safer place for everyone. > Weeks of depression & > Important things You know depressions are usually caused by multiple factors. Viktor getting expelled was likely just the point where it became too much for him to bear. And it kinda makes sense that he recovered rather fast from it,as he modified his own brain to get rid of it(not to mention that it doesn't even say that he has fully revovered either) Also the incident with Jayce happened after Viktor modified himself already,so again,he did modify his own emotions so that they won't slow him down,this was always the case in the old and the new lore. > Chem-slaves This goes back into the whole "controlling"-arguement.We don't know if these guys willingly work for Viktor or not.They are never referred to as slaves in Viktors lore,only in Jayces color text(and Jayce is obviously biased). Also in a previous arguement you complained about Viktor not reacting to the death of his patients,now you complain that he reacted to it..... > "Friendship" with Jayce Well in the end the 2 were rivals in the old lore,but said rivalry honestly was extremely underdeveloped and onesided. Also you say that Jayce has been reduced to a "hero jerk",but I think that is a vast improvement for him since he was a mary sue before(and you complain about them not changing Jayces character and bakcstory completely in a thread in which you complain about the changes that were done to Viktor) Not to mention that Viktor doesn't care about Jayce aynmore at the end of his story.So while this event is key to their character,it isn't the main focus of their stories. > Zaun's college of Techmaturgy Again you complain about them keeping stuff from the old lore,when this is a thread that complains about the changes that were done to the lores. > Expelled vs Withdrawn – expelled for his amoral experiments. I'll get to this in the last part, but being expelled has a completely different effect on psyche. Originally Viktor withdrew from the college because he was so hurt. Nobody gave a damn about him, nobody cared he had withdrawn. This resonates with readers. Being expelled from a college in a different city, which looks down upon your people induces hate in a character. And Viktor was never about hate. In the old lore he withdrew,because someone stole his invention and was allowed to market it as his own,so basically he withdrew because he was so pissed that someone took his stuff. > Blitzcrank's sentience His sentience being a side effect makes sense,otherwise the process would be recreateable and there'd be no reason to not make more sentient robots. > We were told that all tech now in the new lore is crafted by few very skilled artisans. But colleges for techmaturgy exist. Colleges mass-produce experts. Its not like everyone in the city goes to these colleges though.(and there are likely not many colleges,who are likely all smaller than real life colleges) > Viktor named his creation Blitzcrank – Blitz is a German word meaning lightning. But Viktor speaks with a Slavic accent, not a German one. As if Lols accents ever made any sense.Not to mention that everyone in Valoran speaks english anyway. > The new lore says Viktor's inventions became widespread in Zaun. Number of accidents in a forge that used his designs, fell to zero. Yet, Zaun is still a toxic hellhole in which every day countless people die due to accidents? Widespread doesn't mean that everyone uses them for everything. > Viktor saw the human factor as a weakness, yet he tried to replicate Blitzcrank's... human factor. Because Blitzcrank lacked the robots weaknesses. Just because humans aren't perfect doesn't mean that machines are flawless. > How did Pididly now steal credit for Blitzcrank if he was in Piltover, and Viktor both created and left Blitzcrank in Zaun? In the old lore, Pididly used to work in the college of techmaturgy in Zaun where Viktor created Blitzcrank; that was logical. This actually makes more sense now.Before they argued about who created Blitzcrank,when Bc was right there and could have clarified this easily. And Piddly likely got reports from Viktor from Zaun and then marketed Bc as his own in Piltover,hence why anyone would even believe Piddly in the first place instead of him being a random scientist who claims to have invented Bc without any way to back it up and wins anyway. > Viktor created a chem-shunt helm for mind-control. He also engineered chem-slaves. But Viktor is not a chemist. & > Viktor keeps organs in jars in his flat. Why? Well I guess for "aesthetic". He's not a biologist, I don't know why he'd keep organs in liquid preservatives displayed. Viktor has to be a biologist,otherwise he couldn't replace his body parts with robotics. You can't just glue a robot arm to your body and expect it to work... > The worst Not sure how his inventions are depicted as evil. In his color story(which makes it clear that some people demonize Viktor),he surpresses the fear of a boy.The boy was ok with the procedure and it did help him.
So what if I complain about the new lore? Why are you defending everything from the new lore? I seriously doubt you agree with everthing from the new lores. Dude, biologists don't work with amputees and human enhancement. Neither do chemists. But hey, the new lore aslo said Orianna's father, who was a clockmaker, knew how to do operations in his workshop alone, with no blood transfusion, and that Orianna's heart was alive in a robotic body xD the new lore is such a clusterfuck of idiotic things that I'm not sure why you're trying to answer to my points which area obviously logical. Viktor has another sentient robot and that's his third arm. Now that has 0 explanation. But that's not the point - the point is, and I asked, why was that invention of free will taken away from Viktor? Why are his inventions presented as malicious now "if you're desperate, you go to Viktor". Why was Viktor's personality changed. You didn't provide an answer to that. Only Riot can provide an answer to that. My post is addressed to them.
: So sad... You are not authorized.
: I didn't tell you if I had downvoted you because _downvotes don't matter to the discussion_. I don't get how not answering that question makes all your work meaningless. For the rest; I can at least take that, from the second and third paragraph. The shorthand doesn't do the lore justice, and it doesn't give a good picture; not to mention I hadn't seen the details about the willing acolytes prior, so, learn something new every day. I did read the post, which is why I didn't bring up the psychology and depression stuff - primarily because I don't have any arguments against it. But, his new lore isn't a contradiction of the kind of person he was, it's a cementing of who he was into a universe that has been reshaped a lot since he was last spoken of. As a sidenote, throwing accusations out ("didn't you read my post?" "you didn't tell me if you downvoted me, why? to make my work meaningless?") is a little immature. If you want to discuss stuff, discuss it, but don't start pulling crap up that's beside the discussion.
Downvotes are for things that don't contribute to the discussion. Downvotes decrease visibility, but you already knew all that. Accusations such as that one are extremely relevant because your arguments are as if you didn't read what I said. But now you say you agree with some paragraphs. This points to that you see logic behind them, but some things don't agree with how you see Viktor and that's why your arguments are so... disconnected? The new lore IS a contradiction. I already gave examples of that. Viktor in the old lore didn't want to remove empathy and whatnot. He didn't view humanity as an error since forever. The issue I have is that the new lore, rebuilding the setting, takes this character, and changes him fundamentally. This is not the same character. Frame my previous paragraph in this comment, because that's my main point, there's nothing else to decipher.
: "Controlling someone, for whatever reason, is immoral. " Clear to see this is just a bias opinion piece based off of your own ideals and morals. I skimmed a bit more and the way you wrote this comes off as a young kid complaining because they don't see outside their own perspective. You do also realize there are different kinds and levels of depression and the way people deal with and suffer through it are different too? There are plenty of posts that are about not agreeing or even disliking the lore and they're good reads even if I disagree because of the way they are written. But this... Thaaanks, but no thanks.
I wouldn't want to be you, man. Calling someone a kid, but saying controlling someone is based on personal moral. No, it's based on the moral of the society. Skimmed through? Thanks but no thanks? Lol go troll someone else.
: 4th Time I'm Reporting the Wrong Splash Art During Champion Select
Also, Viktor's splash is wrong. The select one and the one which is Summoner profile background is an unedited version, the one before Riot changed it.
: Well, it's okay to resonate with someone, but it's impossible to make every facet of a character resonate with people. Trying to accomplish that would probably be detrimental, to say the least. If I'm not mistaken, the old lore was something along the lines of "Viktor was an inventor, he collaborated and worked on Blitzcrank, other inventor stole the fame, Viktor saw human error as a weakness, started 'The Glorious Evolution' to replace emotion and the follies thereof with pure, cold, machine-driven logic" - which I don't recall that Viktor ever giving people options. The new Viktor however, is much, much more humane - he doesn't kidnap people, he looks for volunteers who are willing to risk their lives just to have a shot at having them. Even in his color story, he asks the child if he wanted or needed anything replaced, but didn't force anything. He's not on a campaign, he's just running an augmentation clinic out of his old workshop. And I never said that Viktor's use of the chem-slaves could be construed as good. My point wasn't that he's entirely ambiguous or not remotely evil, my point was that Viktor isn't dependant on Jayce - that chem-slave attack was the last time Viktor bothered with him. And, also, something I forgot to talk about earlier this evening; you argue that Viktor's augmentations having bad side effects and sometimes proving fatal are written in to try and paint the augmentations as wholly evil, but that's not the case. Viktor didn't have the college backing to continue refining his work in Piltover, and so the complications from his augmentations later in Zaun happened to be the result of Viktor working purely without prior practice or experience: he knew what he was doing, but it wasn't anywhere near as refined as it could be had he not been expelled.
Nobody's saying the lore resonates one hundred percent with everyone, I'm saying the old lore amazed me, then the new lore changed his personality and it's no longer the character he was. No, the old lore wasn't written like that, how did you get that idea? Viktor and other students worked to create Blitzcrank, a golem to clean Zaun. The work got stolen and Viktor plead for justice. Nobody cared. Viktor withdrew from the college. Nobody cared. He sank into a deep depression, and then he figured out a way to keep his inventions his own, so that nobody could ever steal from him again. He turned himself into his own creation. He sought to remove his emotional weaknesses, not **all his emotions** - depression, jealousy, anger, sadness. Then he wanted to perfect the entire world like this, not remove everything that makes us human. Not once was it said he forced people. He actually showed other scientists his achievements, so that they could decide. His "acolytes" were willing citizens of Zaun who liked what he was offering, some old Rioters confirmed that. And no need to describe the new lore, I tell you again. That's all nice and dandy what happened in the new lore, but it's in contradiction with the kind of person he was. Didn't you read my post? The part about his psychology, effects of depression, causes of change in way of thinking? He did not view humans as inferior in the old lore! Now in the new lore he does, even from the start! And you didn't tell me if you had downvoted me. Why? To make all my work meaningless?
: Kind of late for making a post about this, but okay, I can dig it. Upvoted for visibility, though I don't necessarily agree with it destroying his character.
Thank you for the visibility, if you want to talk about some points, feel free to do so.
: I don't recall there being any ambiguity in Viktor's old lore. Back then, he was plain and simply evil, and now he's actually much, much more morally obscure. (my recollection could be wrong, but the same could be said for yours) The thing with Viktor and Jayce is they're meant to be intellectual equals, it's just that their methods differ: Viktor believes that human error makes work horribly inefficient at worst, and mildly difficult at best, while Jayce is all heart and brazen forward-thinking impulse. And on top of that, Viktor isn't dependent on Jayce. Sure, Jayce plays a fairly big role in Viktor's lore now beyond just "appeared sometime after to stop his mass-machining", but Viktor doesn't depend on Jayce for anything. After the whole "Jayce besieging Viktor's lab" thing, Viktor only tried to interact with Jayce one more time, by sending those chem-junkies to his workshop just to prod and see what would happen. After that, he gave up. And you say the whole "withdrawing from school" resonates more with readers, but schools that are invariably worse than others can't exist? What points are you even trying to raise here? I'm extra confused as to why Viktor should be resonant with readers - he's a _Champion_, he's a notable individual in Runeterra. You wouldn't think people would resonate with Jinx, or Jhin, or Gangplank, or basically any other clear-cut villains, would you? Those are a few things I could point out with the energy I had this morning.
If you don't think there was ambiguity and / or things left for interpretation in the old lore, I can't explain to you the bullet points. I mean, I've written them.. I could only rewrite what I already.. wrote. Please, did you downvote the thread? How can I bring to attention this then? How can I start conversations with people? ___ Later there, I see you've just described the new lore. But - that's the issue, Viktor in the old lore didn't see **humanity** as an error. That's what I'm saying! "Tried to interact" - the chem-slaves destroyed the lab. That can't be good no matter how you turn it Why should Viktor resonate with readers? Well, look what I wrote, that character resonates with me. With many people, visit the subreddit.
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