: "summoners are removed from the lore"
what is your point ?? summoners and the institute of war have been retconned since 2014 ( if i remember correctly).The video youa re presenting is lcs related and thus has no connection to the lore whatsoever ! I just hope that riot makes a thread in which it is clearly stated waht parts of the lol's history are canon ( spoilers : only in universe information is canon ..even pbe stories are not officialy canon.) so we dont have to deal with that topic again...
GreenLore (EUW)
: Its actually been hinted that the targonian aspects are pretty much ascended under a different name,so they'd likely be equal in terms of strength to the ascended. Also Zoe was compared to Aurelion Sol in terms of power,so I think she should be at least Tier 2.
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2018-08-28T08:44:33.079+0000) > > Its actually been hinted that the targonian aspects are pretty much ascended under a different name,so they'd likely be equal in terms of strength to the ascended. > Yea , my main problem witht the aspects is that we have not seen them in serious acion yet...pantheon got obliterated by aurelion but almost any champion would ! so iam skeptical about them ,, > Also Zoe was compared to Aurelion Sol in terms of power,so I think she should be at least Tier 2. really ? i dont remember something liek that..can you link me the source ? If this is the case i will change it asap!
: As the person who has been making pretty much this same style lists over the past year and a half, I have a few comments. 1. Bard should be extremely high tier. 2. You have way too many tiers. It is difficult to process with that many categories. 3. I think you HEAVILY understate ascended/darkin and overrate the aspects. 4. You leave out giants and the shadow isles champions. Overall it is a nice attempt, but it needs refinement.
> [{quoted}](name=Hyper10sion,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-08-27T18:51:50.480+0000) > > As the person who has been making pretty much this same style lists over the past year and a half, I have a few comments. ok i will try to explain to you my reasoning behind my decisions : > 1. Bard should be extremely high tier. why ? Bard Has no feats to support a n ''extremely high'' tier placement ...i have read his lore extensively and the only ability we know that he has for sure is the ability to teleport through the cosmos ( cinematic) .His meeps were capable of mountain level destuction so anything more than that are assumptions adn head canon.Bard and kindred are the worst offenders of this , people just assuem things without using any logic at all..If you find me in universe evidence that proves how powerful bard is i will just add him on the lsit , but for now bard is just abeing that tries to protect runeterra , we dont no why or how , the only thing we know is that the greatest threat he has fought so far is a bunch of soldiers ! As a side note : 1i dont base my list on posts from rioters since they are not canon most of the times.Until something is stated in the universe it is not canon ! 2.Gameplay and lore are not related in any way , just because a champion has an ability in game does not mean he has the same exact ability in lore ! > 2. You have way too many tiers. It is difficult to process with that many categories. That is honestly a fair criticism i will see waht can i do! > 3. I think you HEAVILY understate ascended/darkin and overrate the aspects. How so ? ascended are tier 3 ...darkin are that low because they have lost their original bodies and they fight for control , they are weaker than normal ascended for sure.. > 4. You leave out giants and the shadow isles champions. giants? shadow isles champions are not powerful enough to have a sopt on this list ...since most of their power comes from huge numbers..mordekaiser can not defeat ans ascended or even a darkin..will he come back ? yes , will he lose again no matter how many times he tries? yes.. Then again if you are aware of some feats that i right now forget feel free to tell me! > Overall it is a nice attempt, but it needs refinement. Overall i would like you to present me the source that lead you to make the above remarks..then we can start discussing about the fundamental differences in our list , why is that so?what we may have gotten wrong ? i think both lists can improve from this conversation !
: *visible confusion* Ryze is still the last in order. Well if we don't include Zoe.
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0013000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-26T15:41:40.952+0000) > > *visible confusion* Ryze is still the last in order. Well if we don't include Zoe. power increases from left to right not from up top bottom ...the explanations are not in order of power..i explain that in my clarifications at the start!
: Don't forget about the updates to the list (in case you forgot)
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=00130000000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-26T08:47:37.204+0000) > > Don't forget about the updates to the list (in case you forgot) yea i will do that now
: 1. What I meant is that it's a different type of magic. For example Runeterran magic can't age people to dust in seconds (if the ones it is being used can actually age) or summon spirit fire out of nowhere or wither energy. These 2 types of magic have different uses (besides energy blasts which both can do). If Ryze could actually age Nasus could 1 shot him with that, but since he doesn't and Nasus's magic wasn't shown to be able to disspel that's why I assume Ryze could trap him. If Ascended/Aspect magic is shown to be able to disspel, I'll give the edge to Nasus. Nasus could attack Ryze with magic but since Nasus doesn't have acces to shields I don't see how he would counter Ryze's bursts, blasts, spells etc. (I mean other than tanking them for quite a while) 2. Will do. Thanks for the debate (I kinda don't have many things to do so I use my knowledge of lore to debate online when I don't have anything to do).
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=00130000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T18:18:22.491+0000) > > 1. What I meant is that it's a different type of magic. For example Runeterran magic can't age people to dust in seconds (if the ones it is being used can actually age) or summon spirit fire out of nowhere or wither energy. These 2 types of magic have different uses (besides energy blasts which both can do). If Ryze could actually age Nasus could 1 shot him with that, but since he doesn't and Nasus's magic wasn't shown to be able to disspel that's why I assume Ryze could trap him. If Ascended/Aspect magic is shown to be able to disspel, I'll give the edge to Nasus. Nasus could attack Ryze with magic but since Nasus doesn't have acces to shields I don't see how he would counter Ryze's bursts, blasts, spells etc. (I mean other than tanking them for quite a while) > 2. Will do. Thanks for the debate (I kinda don't have many things to do so I use my knowledge of lore to debate online when I don't have anything to do). my pleasure XD
: Actually Riot stated that Sunborns and Targonian Aspects drew their magical powers from another source than the Runeterran mages. And there was a mention about disspeling, Ryze comic when Ryze disspeled his own wards and when Brand said that shattering his seals always proves to be tiring. About the True Ice part, why was the Voidborn trapped there if it wasn't True Ice? A powerfull Voidborn wouldn't have problems getting past normal Ice. I'm not saying "Put him above Nasus lolz" I mean put him above Lissandra and Vel since he can defeat those 2. Nasus's magic and Ryze's are simply different Ryze uses it for literally everything while Nasus uses it only as a direct weapon. For example Nasus didn't shield himself agaisnt Xerath attack that one of them almost 1 shoted him and he KNOWS what Xerath can do since he fought him in the past too and he knew Xerath got stronger. And I am open minded I never said Ryze is stronger than Azir for example or some sh** (ignore when I said that Ryze beats Xerath 1 month ago i was under the assumption Ryze's energy comes direclty from the World Runes which I found out it's not the case)
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=001300000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T17:00:14.796+0000) > > Actually Riot stated that Sunborns and Targonian Aspects drew their magical powers from another source than the Runeterran mages. Yea for sure , does this mean nasus cant use his magic to counter ryze? > And there was a mention about disspeling, Ryze comic when Ryze disspeled his own wards and when Brand said that shattering his seals always proves to be tiring. -Yea i didnt mean exactly that ...in one of your posts you said that Yogo can dispel because he is a ''pure '' mage ~~and that was a little nonsensical~~ > About the True Ice part, why was the Voidborn trapped there if it wasn't True Ice? A powerfull Voidborn wouldn't have problems getting past normal Ice. -I guess thats a pretty fair assumption , i will proceed to that upgrade ( although i may do it tomorrow because i also have to consider other stuff as well ( anyways if i forget it remind it to me) > I'm not saying "Put him above Nasus lolz" I mean put him above Lissandra and Vel since he can defeat those 2. -For lissandra i answered above velkoz is likely more pwoerful than the voidborn ryze fought and will be free to move and use range attacks as well , a pretty even match if you ask me.. > Nasus's magic and Ryze's are simply different Ryze uses it for literally everything while Nasus uses it only as a direct weapon. For example Nasus didn't shield himself agaisnt Xerath attack that one of them almost 1 shoted him and he KNOWS what Xerath can do since he fought him in the past too and he knew Xerath got stronger. And I am open minded I never said Ryze is stronger than Azir for example or some sh** (ignore when I said that Ryze beats Xerath 1 month ago i was under the assumption Ryze's energy comes direclty from the World Runes which I found out it's not the case) -ok tier 4 is a clusterfuck right now as far as order is concerned , i will make all the changes tomorrow , however nasus is most likely to stay above ryze for the reasons i listed ..lissandra is most likey case closed (in favor fo ryze ) whie vel is up for debate !
: Cho's short bio is fairly new if i remember correctly. Either way we do have info on Rek sai, who's model is on par with cho early game and smaller lategame. Rek's sai is supposed to be huge, cho is bigger. That's not gonna change, it's the most iconic part of cho. > i explain all that in the description ..also the pwoer in each tier increases from left to rigt so yes aatrox>kayn >varus due to varuses lack of control. No you don't. You just say being darkin is overrated and that they're fragile but have supernatural powers. Kayn isn't strong enough to beat zed but he's still in the high tiers? You made a big deal of not taking into account how powerful someone may become but then give kayn special treatment incase rhaast takes over. And sure you can order them in such a way that in the same tier 1 is stronger than the other. But i don't think varus or kayn even come close to aatrox' power. Putting aatrox in your high tiers post is fair, the other two not really.
> [{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T16:30:11.341+0000) > > Cho's short bio is fairly new if i remember correctly. Either way we do have info on Rek sai, who's model is on par with cho early game and smaller lategame. Rek's sai is supposed to be huge, cho is bigger. That's not gonna change, it's the most iconic part of cho. > Cho gaths bio is a place holder in the same manner kayles and morgana's are ! > No you don't. You just say being darkin is overrated and that they're fragile but have supernatural powers. Kayn isn't strong enough to beat zed but he's still in the high tiers? You made a big deal of not taking into account how powerful someone may become but then give kayn special treatment incase rhaast takes over. > i will check kayn's lore and i may consider a revision! > And sure you can order them in such a way that in the same tier 1 is stronger than the other. But i don't think varus or kayn even come close to aatrox' power. Putting aatrox in your high tiers post is fair, the other two not really. Ah i dont really know about removing them entirely ...i will see , if i update the list at all it would be late today or tomorrow since iam bored now :P
Potzerus (EUW)
: It seems you have fixed most of the points i would have raised since the last time i swung by here main complaint i have now that time manipulation aswell as literal teleportation doesnt score higher than tier 3 additionally only varus and rhaast struggle with control, aatrox has mastered it well enough that he can take over host bodies in a heartbeat, that alone should push him at least somewhat above both, additionally darkin posses flesh reshaping abilities as seen with aatroxes lore even post imprisonment i'd also recommend taking a look at hyperlosions tier lists on reddit. He too categorizes champions in different tiers but has different criteria i strongly suggest you check it out https://www.reddit.com/user/katarhero72/posts/
> [{quoted}](name=Potzerus,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T16:41:06.511+0000) > > It seems you have fixed most of the points i would have raised since the last time i swung by here main complaint i have now that time manipulation aswell as literal teleportation doesnt score higher than tier 3 Yea its limited time manipulation as long as zoe touched the tiem bubble the effect ended ( and that wasnt ehr intention)..Also we know that she must touch someone with her bubble to apply tiem statis ( because that is her actual power) , teleportation seems to be limited only to zoe ( i dont remember her teleport something else away! >additionally only varus and rhaast struggle with control, aatrox has mastered it well enough that he can take over host bodies in a heartbeat, that alone should push him at least somewhat above both, additionally darkin posses flesh reshaping abilities as seen with aatroxes lore even post imprisonment > Yea but their bodies are still human ( weaker that ascended bodies)..also Aatrox is above the other to since in each tier ( unless mentioned otherwise) the power increases from elft to right ! Someone else correctly pointed out that we can not have 50 tiers! The power between someone at the start of the tier and the one at the end may eb massive ( especialy in lower tiers .) > > i'd also recommend taking a look at hyperlosions tier lists on reddit. He too categorizes champions in different tiers but has different criteria i strongly suggest you check it out https://www.reddit.com/user/katarhero72/posts/ ok i will thanks !
: > a powerful arcmage.. his powers are most likely passively growing due to constant exposure to the world rune ( we can see the effect that even the presence of a world rune can have to yogo that despite being a normal human was able to match ryze in battle).Ryze also is able to incapacitate brand , a being fused with the power of a world rune ! finaly ryze was able to withstand the void corruption ( as seen in the cinematic) and countered with a magic attack that made the voidnorn explode..Ryzes main weakness that ''roots'' him near the end of the 4 tier is hsi lack of inhuman speed and reactions that all the other denizens of the tier possess ( minus lissandra?) ,,,combine that with a high magic resistance ascendads like nasus have displayed ( fights against xerath ).. He could beat Lissandra and Vel'Koz tho, already said why I think he could also beat Nasus. Shouldn't he be just a little above Lissandra and Vel? Like ik Lissandra can use True Ice but Ryze made massive fissures in the True Ice that was trapping the Voidborn in the cinematic.
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-08-25T15:16:40.888+0000) > > He could beat Lissandra and Vel'Koz tho, already said why I think he could also beat Nasus. Shouldn't he be just a little above Lissandra and Vel? Like ik Lissandra can use True Ice but Ryze made massive fissures in the True Ice that was trapping the Voidborn in the cinematic. and i think i explained why what you said is not possible ( especialy for nasus ) as you can see i am totally objective here..you made a good point for ryze vs renekton i upgraded ryze..but i can not defy all logic and sense and assume that nasus can not dispel ryzes root while yogo can ( which is completely redudant ) ..never have i ever seen even a single mention about dispelling in the lore , or the difference between ,''pure'' as you called them , mages and other magical creatures! -what you made were assumptions , and ilogical ones at that , dont present them as facts or as arguemnts grounded on logic ! Nasus speed blitzes ryze and has the magical potency to fight from afar , he also has regenerative abilites.He wins .period. I understand that you are ryze main but maybe you must try to be a little more open minded ....its not like i have reason to downplay ryze or anything! geezz {{sticker:sg-shisa}}
: > Yea that is zoes view of it No it from her bio, an unbiased, 3rd person description of Zoe. It would suck if we had to consider champion bios as opinions. The part about her protecting Asol could be a contradiction. My main point was the fact that she can interact with him (and even tease him) speaks volumes about what she do and survive. > if she can use it offensively or just for travel She can use it during combat if that what you mean. Is your list direct direct combat power? If so then, sure, this ability isn’t all that amazing. Zoe just uses it to doge during combat in her story. Outside of combat this is super powerful. Swain could probably rule the world if he had it. > implying that direct confict with them would be impossible , or difficult One could argue that combat was possible but not engaged but that’s how trickster likes to operate. Why fight armies when you don’t have to lift a finger. But you could be right to, maybe she couldn’t fight them. Then end result was still the downfall of the Darkin. But if the list only considers direct combat power, I agree being clever does not count for anything. > Or zoe doesnt care about things like power? Yeah, could be. My point is I don’t get why Ryze is at the top of the list when Zoe can do everything he can and more. He is more dedicated, sure, but that has not resulted in him being more powerful. He is powerful because he can get to and use runes (even if he never would), Zoe can to (even if she never would).
> [{quoted}](name=Raven Redeemed,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T14:47:52.500+0000) > your previous comment ( and some more) was the reason i revised some parts of the list..take a look!
Terozu (NA)
: The Darkin were ascended beings. Humans infused with the power of celestial aspects, and Zoe's magic is what freaking insta killed half of them. They were not called god warriors for no reason. At that point in time targon had access to Sol, so if he's so powerful why didnt they use him? Malphite almost definitely rivals ASol in size, being the size if a mountain. RIOTERS STATED BARD WAS THE MOST POWERFUL BEING IN LORE. THAT IS NOT AN OPINION. It is not head canon. It is the canon. Zoe is over 10,000 years old and regularly hops between different realities, we also have art of her outright tying up Aurelion sol with her magic as a prank. Aurelion sol wears an enchanted crown powered by the aspects. Currently the only aspects who know about him at all are Pantheon and Zoe. Which means they are the main tethers. We also fully know that he exaggerates his own abilities in his internal narration. And btw i read your post. Ornn, Anivia and Volibear are not spirits. They are Demi gods. You know who else are called demi gods in lore? The aspects. Who by the way, are physical embodiments of celestial ideas and concept. Zoe is literally a physical embodiment of change itself. If her aspect died, literally nothing would ever change again. This is another thing stated by Riot. If Panth's aspect died, no more war, if Taric's no more protection, Leona and Diana? No more moon or sun.
> [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T12:29:31.269+0000) > > The Darkin were ascended beings. Humans infused with the power of celestial aspects, and Zoe's magic is what freaking insta killed half of them. They were not called god warriors for no reason. At that point in time targon had access to Sol, so if he's so powerful why didnt they use him? > > Malphite almost definitely rivals ASol in size, being the size if a mountain. > Malphite is in alore limbo riot now ..he is a meme at this point! > RIOTERS STATED BARD WAS THE MOST POWERFUL BEING IN LORE. THAT IS NOT AN OPINION. It is not head canon. It is the canon. > Again you dont even bother to read my post..i dont consider red posts canon , a lot fo the times rioters joke around or just say their opinion that is later proven inaccurate based on the inforamtion we get..( for example a rioter ''confirmed'' in another post that ryze is so powerful because he is shirtless ..should we take that into acount as well? ) ..Also the ''a rioter said thing '' is not an argument , you can show me that post and then argue about my '' lack fo knwoledge''. If that post happened before 3 years and never became a part of the universe its not canon! > > Zoe is over 10,000 years old and regularly hops between different realities, we also have art of her outright tying up Aurelion sol with her magic as a prank. > Orhn , voli and anivia are older that zoe ( since they created frelijord and we know that at the tiem of shuriams reign zoe herself wasnt around). > Aurelion sol wears an enchanted crown powered by the aspects. Currently the only aspects who know about him at all are Pantheon and Zoe. Which means they are the main tethers. > > i explained that ..the fact that aurelion follows their order does not make them mroe powerful! > We also fully know that he exaggerates his own abilities in his internal narration. > from where ? > > > > And btw i read your post. Ornn, Anivia and Volibear are not spirits. They are Demi gods. ''Anivia is a benevolent winged** spirit **who endures endless cycles of life, death, and rebirth to protect the Freljord.'' The fact that anivia , voli and orhna re spirits does not mean that they can not be characterized as demigods!..Demigod is a characterization , spirit is a state of being ! lol >You know who else are called demi gods in lore? The aspects. Who by the way, are physical embodiments of celestial ideas and concepts.Zoe is literally a physical embodiment of change itself. If her aspect died, literally nothing would ever change again. This is another thing stated by Riot. If Panth's aspect died, no more war, if Taric's no more protection, Leona and Diana? No more moon or sun. No , they are not physical embodiments of said concepts ..in fact we know from aurelions biography that targon is just galactic empire ..celestials are nothing more than an advanced alien race..and unlike you i have evidence to support that : '' Now, he is forced to wield his awesome power **at the behest of a space-faring empire** that **tricked** him into servitude. '' Also unless you present me thsoe riot posts you talk about (a nd assuming they are not outdated of course ,,because you know...if they contradict something directly stated in universe they are !)you points are just head canon..i can say all i want that jinx is a cosmic level threat if i dont have **evidence** what i say is **nonsense**!
Terozu (NA)
: You put ornn voli and anivia above zoe. You put anyone above bard. Yoy dont know jack about lore strength. And fyi, we know Zoe holds massive cosmic power and potentially the ability to destroy runeterra although its vague. We also know she and pantheon are the main beings binding Asol at the moment. We also know Asol isnt that big. He is a little more than a mile tall. That attack that turned a tower to rubble and exposed a world rune via massive crater was not an actual attack. Thats her idea of a game. Bard, has been stated to be the most powerful lore champ. And he us nowhere on your list.
> [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2018-08-25T11:43:02.882+0000) > > You put ornn voli and anivia above zoe. > yes i did because all of them have feats to support their position..read the entirety of my post pls..yea even the clarifications at the start its weird i know ..How daring of me toa sk people read the whole post before judging it ! > You put anyone above bard. > Bard has no feats that can support such ridculous claim...like at all! if you had bothered to read my clarifications we wouldnt have to do that discussion right now.Is bards power shown in in-universe pieces? no..so is anyones head canon about him right? maybe , but we can not take it into account! > Yoy dont know jack about lore strength. > > yea i can throw pointless insults around as well ..when you find evidence for your claims i am perfectly willing to revise my list (as i already did twice today) > > And fyi, we know Zoe holds massive cosmic power and potentially the ability to destroy runeterra although its vague. > No we dont know that ..its not even implied ..in fact celestials had problems defeating the darkin is a straight fight( thats why they resulted in trickery !) read twillight of the gods ! > We also know she and pantheon are the main beings binding Asol at the moment. > Again you are distorting the truth , noone is ''binding '' aurelion , aurelion follows the orders of tragon because if he doesnt they will kill his stars ( that values a lot) , in fact aurelion has killed the avatar of pantheon ( his short story). > We also know Asol isnt that big. > > He is a little more than a mile tall. > what is bigger than him? i never said that he is as big as a planet or something lol.. > > > That attack that turned a tower to rubble and exposed a world rune via massive crater was not an actual attack. Thats her idea of a game. > That attack is the only true feat zoe has under her belt ..unless you prove me wrong through evidence from the universe ! > > > Bard, has been stated to be the most powerful lore champ. And he us nowhere on your list. I already explained that nowhere in the universe is somethig like that stated! The fact that a lol of people present their opinion as facts and spread misinformation is something else..i challenge you to go to the universe and find evidence that support your claim ..thats right there is non ! All in all you dont have to be agressive and underestimate my research so much (''Yoy dont know jack about lore strength.'') Do your own first and then talk ..
: > [{quoted}](name=Emperor of Fate,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2018-08-25T11:10:21.537+0000) > > in game logic can not be applied for lore power calculations....the game and lore are unrelated and thus the power levels in one does not dermine the power levels in the other..old cinematics that take place in the summoners rift are not canon as well! I know that there is a difference between lore and game, but this one is just so different, it easily takes the cake. There's such a huge chasm between the lore and game that it'd be easier to explain if they were just 2 different entities.
> [{quoted}](name=OatheSworn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T11:40:52.542+0000) > > I know that there is a difference between lore and game, but this one is just so different, it easily takes the cake. There's such a huge chasm between the lore and game that it'd be easier to explain if they were just 2 different entities. I am not sure what you are trying to get across here..**lore and game aurelion sol are two different entities entirely !** The events that take place in the in game maps (and in the old cinematics) are neither canon nor a ''what if ''scenario..Champions and their stats are adjusted in order for game balance to be achieved..since they have nothing to do with their real power ( in lore). Institute of war , summoners and other stuff like that are relics of the past that do not and will not affect the main canon of the story again ! In case you have a confusion about the above feel free to ask ,,,,even today( 4 years later!) there are people that are refusing to accept said facts and thus they are spreading misinformation!
: There is a difference between being canon, and being real... an story can be canon, but not real. And that is my problem with {{champion:516}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:106}} and even {{champion:201}} Yeah, in the story it sounds like Orn is like... A SUPER POWERFULL GOD, however, as the legless boy from Tales of Orn says: _“I think they are made up. Or… changed to help us go to sleep.”_ Considering that, it is clear that those stories are exaggerations of what reallly happened and the narrator is not being objective. So, no, i dont think that he or the brothers are powerfull as those stories say. Basically, its the same the example of as Aatrox being the world ender, just because someone says that someone can or did something, it doesnt mean that the person did it or can do it. Also... im pretty sure that {{champion:421}} is at the same lvl of Renekton... But the information to support this do not appear in the Universe page. So, its okay.
> [{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-08-24T21:34:21.497+0000) > > There is a difference between being canon, and being real... an story can be canon, but not real. And that is my problem with {{champion:516}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:106}} and even {{champion:201}} > > Yeah, in the story it sounds like Orn is like... A SUPER POWERFULL GOD, however, as the legless boy from Tales of Orn says: _“I think they are made up. Or… changed to help us go to sleep.”_ > > Considering that, it is clear that those stories are exaggerations of what reallly happened and the narrator is not being objective. So, no, i dont think that he or the brothers are powerfull as those stories say. > > Basically, its the same the example of as Aatrox being the world ender, just because someone says that someone can or did something, it doesnt mean that the person did it or can do it. > > Also... im pretty sure that {{champion:421}} is at the same lvl of Renekton... But the information to support this do not appear in the Universe page. So, its okay. Ok first of all the way anivias bio is written basicaly confirms their existance!....Now can their feats be exaggerations? sure , however there is no other way to evaluate them...Also its not the same case with aatrox !we know for example that orhn **may** have created the howling abyss ..we are sure on the other had that aatrox **can not **end a world!
Potzerus (EUW)
: Hey theres a lot of points in here that don't seem to quite line up with what we know from their lores so im extending an invitation to you to Necrits discord server to have a discussion with a few of us lorenerds if youre interested https://discord.gg/necrit
> [{quoted}](name=Potzerus,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-08-24T21:32:29.791+0000) > > Hey theres a lot of points in here that don't seem to quite line up with what we know from their lores so im extending an invitation to you to Necrits discord server to have a discussion with a few of us lorenerds if youre interested > https://discord.gg/necrit which of my points contradicts ( or doesnt line up ) with the lore? iam just curious
: champion power tier list ( part 1) -top tiers( lore wise)
Disclaimer : read the clarifications at the start of the post first ty ! {{sticker:sg-soraka}}
: Sure, Aurelion can 'fling' stars at enemies, but in game it does the damage equivalent to a finger-flick and no matter how large it gets, if the damage is that minimal--he can clap himself on the back and say "useless".
> [{quoted}](name=OatheSworn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-08-25T10:53:49.003+0000) > > Sure, Aurelion can 'fling' stars at enemies, but in game it does the damage equivalent to a finger-flick and no matter how large it gets, if the damage is that minimal--he can clap himself on the back and say "useless". in game logic can not be applied for lore power calculations....the game and lore are unrelated and thus the power levels in one does not dermine the power levels in the other..old cinematics that take place in the summoners rift are not canon as well!
: champion power tier list ( part 1) -top tiers( lore wise)
Updates happened !!! {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
Fasmodey (EUW)
: He killed other Ascended and according to WAAARGHbobo spirit gods like Ornn, Volibear, Anivia too when he was still an Ascended. He was an extremely powerful Ascended, says WAAARGHbobo.
> [{quoted}](name=Fasmodey,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T10:03:00.448+0000) > > He killed other Ascended and according to WAAARGHbobo spirit gods like Ornn, Volibear, Anivia too when he was still an Ascended. He was an extremely powerful Ascended, says WAAARGHbobo. yea but darkin dont have their bodies anymore ,,it doesnt matter if pre sealment aatrox( still a darkin) was on par with ascendands...am i wrong?
: Where does Seal Sister show up in the lore? i must see such porpoise.
> [{quoted}](name=50CaliberHecate,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-08-24T21:35:43.354+0000) > > Where does Seal Sister show up in the lore? i must see such porpoise. her name does , and yes i speculated a lot about her powers compared to the other gods!
: Shouldn't cho gath be at vel koz' level? Cho Eats and grows. He's pretty much the purest form of the void and unlike his more beastly bretheren is said to be extremely intelligent. Most depictions we've seen of him outside of the current game have been huge already. Considering the current lore is going in a "the big evil void as the main antagonist" route, voidborne have been depicted stronger than ever. Rek Sai is supposedly a giant beast dwelling in the shuriman sands but she doesn't have the intelligence to be a real threat. Vel'koz is huge. I'm pretty sure cho is bigger than both. EDIT: these darkin should never be in the same tier. For starters none of them are at their full power. Aatrox hasn't found a worthy host afaik and that should limit him somewhat. However he is the most powerful in the lore that's ingame right now. He gets full control over the body and has noone struggling to break free, as from what i understand if you lose it's over. Kayn is still human, he's weaker than zed and mainly keeps rhaast at bay with ~~ the power of anime and god on his side~~ willpower. Rhaast has no physical body in the current lore, he's trapped in his weapon. Rhaast is one of the weakest characters in lore right now, but he has potential. Putting him there for his potential would mean kha and kog are on vel koz level because of their lifeform-type. Varus is comparable to Kayn, sure varus has spread all over the body and his "ways" are slightly different meaning he is mostly in control. But he has yet to completely drive out the other 2 meaning he can't be at his full power yet. He's also only recently been freed.
> [{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-08-24T20:41:56.922+0000) > > Shouldn't cho gath be at vel koz' level? > > > Cho Eats and grows. He's pretty much the purest form of the void and unlike his more beastly bretheren is said to be extremely intelligent. Most depictions we've seen of him outside of the current game have been huge already. we have no depictions fo cho gath outside of the game or old cinematics (which are not canon anyway) > Considering the current lore is going in a "the big evil void as the main antagonist" route, voidborne have been depicted stronger than ever. Rek Sai is supposedly a giant beast dwelling in the shuriman sands but she doesn't have the intelligence to be a real threat. Vel'koz is huge. I'm pretty sure cho is bigger than both. > cho gath is in a lore limbo right now..velkoz is the strongest voidborn(his new lore) > EDIT: > these darkin should never be in the same tier. For starters none of them are at their full power. > > Aatrox hasn't found a worthy host afaik and that should limit him somewhat. However he is the most powerful in the lore that's ingame right now. > He gets full control over the body and has noone struggling to break free, as from what i understand if you lose it's over. > > Kayn is still human, he's weaker than zed and mainly keeps rhaast at bay with ~~ the power of anime and god on his side~~ willpower. Rhaast has no physical body in the current lore, he's trapped in his weapon. Rhaast is one of the weakest characters in lore right now, but he has potential. Putting him there for his potential would mean kha and kog are on vel koz level because of their lifeform-type. > I measure champions based on their current power so no matter how pwoerful aatrox may become he is rather weak now compared to entities above him! > Varus is comparable to Kayn, sure varus has spread all over the body and his "ways" are slightly different meaning he is mostly in control. But he has yet to completely drive out the other 2 meaning he can't be at his full power yet. He's also only recently been freed. i explain all that in the description ..also the pwoer in each tier increases from left to rigt so yes aatrox>kayn >varus due to varuses lack of control.
: > That is what zoe says to taunt aurelion No it's from her bio. "she teases the giant creature relentlessly, but when needed, she also protects her “space doggy” and his stars from Pantheon’s wrath" > he cant teleport to the void for example Source? Even if that's true traveling just about anywhere in multiple dimensions seems pretty powerful to me. > I dont see how this ability is helpful.. Well being able to avoid every single type of physical attack seem helpful to me, especially considering Zoe can use magic to attack from afar. It also means she can brake at least one law of nature. > Any evidence about that? Her story: "Zoe created a time bubble, turning it only half a planet’s rotation, before launching it at the tree. The anomaly bounced before bursting against the tree’s trunk. For a second, the cute animal’s past merged with the present. The night sky overtook the area, and twilight butterflies pulsed around it. The small creature fell into the tired, restful sleep of the previous evening, as its past’s spiritual and mental state overwhelmed its current consciousness." She was also able to instantly see when the animal would die which we can assume is something she can see in all living things. > The darkin werent ruling the entire world ..read twillight of the gods I did. Did I miss remember? Anyway, they at least ruled entire nation states. > Also being clever has nothing to do with power A bomb won't do anything if you don't know how to use it. It will start a war if you do and you know how to manipulate international relations. Knowledge (and wisdom to use it) is power. Human are not the dominate species IRL because of physical abilities but because we are the smartest. Trickster ended the Darkin with just her words. > The fact that i scale ryze from the runes does not mean this will be the case for everyone..ryze has dedicated himself to collect the world runes ..zoe just saw one and threw it away.. That seems like a pretty biased scale then. I don't see what Ryze's life dedication has to do with his power. The fact that Zoe is more flippant with a rune than Ryze would indicate she is more powerful than him. It's power does not threaten her nor does it interest her which suggests a lot about Zoe's immense power.
> [{quoted}](name=Raven Redeemed,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-08-24T19:28:53.739+0000) > > No it's from her bio. "she teases the giant creature relentlessly, but when needed, she also protects her “space doggy” and his stars from Pantheon’s wrath" > Yea that is zoes view of it ..from aurelions lore we know that aurelion can obliterate pantheon if he wants..the only reason he doesnt is because every time he defys targon one of his stars die ..zoe is just another aspect of targon he can talk as much as she wants but unless she displays actual feats she remains where she is...also from twillight of the gods we know that previous aspect of the twillight had to result to trickery to defeat darkins meaning that seh wasnt able to win a staight fight! > Source? Even if that's true traveling just about anywhere in multiple dimensions seems pretty powerful to me. > again we dont know the full extend of that ability ..if she can use it offensively or just for travel > Well being able to avoid every single type of physical attack seem helpful to me, especially considering Zoe can use magic to attack from afar. It also means she can brake at least one law of nature. > > Her story: > "Zoe created a time bubble, turning it only half a planet’s rotation, before launching it at the tree. The anomaly bounced before bursting against the tree’s trunk. > For a second, the cute animal’s past merged with the present. The night sky overtook the area, and twilight butterflies pulsed around it. The small creature fell into the tired, restful sleep of the previous evening, as its past’s spiritual and mental state overwhelmed its current consciousness." > > She was also able to instantly see when the animal would die which we can assume is something she can see in all living things. > I forgot about that i will proceed to an update ..since zoe be more powerful tha miyiisa! > I did. Did I miss remember? Anyway, they at least ruled entire nation states. > > A bomb won't do anything if you don't know how to use it. It will start a war if you do and you know how to manipulate international relations. Knowledge (and wisdom to use it) is power. Human are not the dominate species IRL because of physical abilities but because we are the smartest. Trickster ended the Darkin with just her words. > Ok lets chill down she used the remaining ascendand and their maigc( chalicar) to defeat the seal away the darkin implying that direct confict with them would be impossible , or difficult! > That seems like a pretty biased scale then. I don't see what Ryze's life dedication has to do with his power. The fact that Zoe is more flippant with a rune than Ryze would indicate she is more powerful than him. It's power does not threaten her nor does it interest her which suggests a lot about Zoe's immense power. Or zoe doesnt care about things like power? she just wants to have fun and be a normal girl..id dont see how using a world rune will further that goal!
: Wait doesn't Aatrox kill gods? How is that tier 7 lol
> [{quoted}](name=SugeMinPikk,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-08-24T20:43:33.925+0000) > > Wait doesn't Aatrox kill gods? How is that tier 7 lol Did you jsut saw the character placement ? read my calrifications pls ( at the start of the post) aatrox is self proclaimed god killer , we have never seen him do something like that after is ''fall''.
: Tempered Fate and Cosmic Binding are the names of his moves. I got that paragraph from someone else's post. What about Malphite though? Isn't Cho Gath huge too?-
> [{quoted}](name=webstar1995,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-24T18:20:57.479+0000) > > Tempered Fate and Cosmic Binding are the names of his moves. I got that paragraph from someone else's post. > Yea a lot misinformation about bard as usual ...anyway unless it is isnt directly stated in universe its not canon ( read the clarifications at the start of the post) > What about Malphite though? Isn't Cho Gath huge too?- Malphite and cho gath are in a lore limbo right now..their current bios are place holders for futere updates the same goes for kayle and morgana! And this is the reason i didnt include them!
Schenix (NA)
: Would that mean Udyr fits into your tier 3? Tier 6 is not possible as a real tier, they are removed from power scaling really. Tahm is an ancient power limited by his own ruleset, but almost nigh powerful in his aspect that we get few details of its reach. Nocturne is a primordial force and almost unstoppable in his domain. Janna is an elemental spirit that has no fighting potential as her nature so no details on offense. Kindred has nothing to stop her technically, and scales on lore sure -- still makes her insane. Evelynn I find the weakest. Tier 7, optimal Kayn is a much higher tier. Darkins are far too variable at current timeline to shoehorn into a tier, especially if you base everyone off of their weakest aspect of power scaling.
> [{quoted}](name=Qrown,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-08-24T17:49:03.018+0000) > > Would that mean Udyr fits into your tier 3? > I dont remember that much about udry to be honest can you summarize his feats? > Tier 6 is not possible as a real tier, they are removed from power scaling really. Tier 6 is about creatures that can not be destroyed with conventional means..however all demons and spirits can be banished , or even killed in the spirtual ream ( shen ) > Tahm is an ancient power limited by his own ruleset, but almost nigh powerful in his aspect that we get few details of its reach. Tahm kench will die if he doesnt limit himself with said ruleset the same goes for evelynn..Also they are not pretty impressive power wise (from what we have seen) > Nocturne is a primordial force and almost unstoppable in his domain. we dont know a lot about nocturne i scale him from other demons for now! >Janna is an elemental spirit that has no fighting potential as her nature so no details on offense. janna controls the wind and her power grows as more people beleive for her..a wind can be a light breeze and tempest ! Kindred has nothing to stop her technically, and scales on lore sure -- still makes her insane. Evelynn I find the weakest. > Yea i agree kindred is the strongest entity in tier 6 > Tier 7, optimal Kayn is a much higher tier. Darkins are far too variable at current timeline to shoehorn into a tier, especially if you base everyone off of their weakest aspect of power scaling. ? i think the darkin are in good spot ( remember in each tier power increases from left to right ..its not like everyone is equal )
: 1. Ryze still 1 shoted the Voidborn that was high-tier, given enough time he can damage Nasus through constant bombardament. 2. Yago seemed to be a very powerfull archmage, he has also been using a World Rune for quite some time to protect his village and that made his magic stronger even if he is not using it at the moment he fought Ryze. He is also a pure mage, and is knowledgable of warding and charm and disspeling magic, meanwhile Nasus was not shown to have the ability of disspeling, he is using magic only as a direct weapon. Ryze would root him in place. My point about magical shields still stands. He can shield himself while he is teleporting (assuming Nasus somehow manages to escape his root which I already said why I don't think he can). About how the Voidborn feat doesn't put Ryze into that category... ummm what? He has shown of having ranged offensive power on that level he can beat Vel'Koz and Lissandra who are both there. He can also beat Nasus for reasons already said. Same with Renekton since Renekton didn't show ANY magic use and would be even more defensless than Nasus against Ryze's Rune Prison. 3. Speculation? What else would have stopped Ryze to blow up the entire place?
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-24T18:06:58.848+0000) > > 1. Ryze still 1 shoted the Voidborn that was high-tier, given enough time he can damage Nasus through constant bombardament. OK i am trying to be as unbiased as possible ..in 4:20-21 of the cinematic we see an exhausted ryze..also whatever that thing was it was trapped only his tentacles could move... > 2. Yago seemed to be a very powerfull archmage, he has also been using a World Rune for quite some time to protect his village and that made his magic stronger even if he is not using it at the moment he fought Ryze. Yea thats exactly what i said... > He is also a pure mage, and is knowledgable of warding and charm and disspeling magic, meanwhile Nasus was not shown to have the ability of disspeling, he is using magic only as a direct weapon. OK how the heck do you assume that Yago is able of disspeling ( a human mind you) while nasus the grand scolar of shurima ,, the librarian cant ? ''Over the following centuries, Nasus bent his every effort to learning all he could, scouring the desert for years in search of ancient artifacts and wisdom, '' nasus studied for centuries he far more ancient and wise than a frost mage of the current era.. >Ryze would root him in place. My point about magical shields still stands. He can shield himself while he is teleporting (assuming Nasus somehow manages to escape his root which I already said why I don't think he can). you still didnt answer me ..have we seen ryze cast magical shields ? I proved why your logic about the root is invalid..if yogo can dispell the root so can nasus.. > About how the Voidborn feat doesn't put Ryze into that category... ummm what? He has shown of having ranged offensive power on that level he can beat Vel'Koz and Lissandra who are both there. ranged? he grabbed the tentacles of that thing while they were inside of him thats why he was able to transfer his energy directly to it. Also velkoz will be able to move freely... He can also beat Nasus for reasons already said. Same with Renekton since Renekton didn't show ANY magic use and would be even more defensless than Nasus against Ryze's Rune Prison. I answered that .... > 3. Speculation? What else would have stopped Ryze to blow up the entire place? The only way to prevent himself from being stabbed was to blow the place up? i brought that up to reinforce my point about ryzes lack of inhuman reactions that will cost him the game against an ascended
: Lore-wise I think {{champion:142}} should be at or near the top. She hangs out with Asol (which implies she is capable of space travel and perhaps resistant to immense heat) and protect him from Panth. She can teleport to any place she wants, ignore gravity, and alter time. Her aspect was also clever enough to bring down the Darkin that were ruling the entire world. She is older than Ryze (I think) and has the ability to sense world runes and knows where at least one is.
> [{quoted}](name=Raven Redeemed,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-08-24T17:40:00.801+0000) > > Lore-wise I think {{champion:142}} should be at or near the top. She hangs out with Asol (which implies she is capable of space travel and perhaps resistant to immense heat) and protect him from Panth. That is what zoe says to taunt aurelion...aurelion can destroy panth if he wants ( and he does ! in his story) > She can teleport to any place she wants, any place she wants is a stretch ..he cant teleport to the void for example.. >ignore gravity, I dont see how this ability is helpful.. > and alter time. Any evidence about that? >Her aspect was also clever enough to bring down the Darkin that were ruling the entire world. The darkin werent ruling the entire world ..read twillight of the gods! Also being clever has nothing to do with power .. >She is older than Ryze (I think) and has the ability to sense world runes and knows where at least one is. The fact that i scale ryze from the runes does not mean this will be the case for everyone..ryze has dedicated himself to** collect** the world runes ..zoe just saw one and threw it away..
: Read my reply lol. Not all mages get speedblitzed when they have instant incapacitations and teleportation. Already said why Ryze didn't just blow them all up also his primary goal wasn't to kill them. He didn't even use shields for example. Against an Ascended he would know he mustn't play around.
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-08-24T17:29:17.011+0000) > > Read my reply lol. Not all mages get speedblitzed when they have instant incapacitations and teleportation. Already said why Ryze didn't just blow them all up also his primary goal wasn't to kill them. He didn't even use shields for example. Against an Ascended he would know he mustn't play around. yea i was answering to someone else i couldnt do 2 things a the same time {{sticker:sg-janna}}
: Actually Ascendants aren't shown to have magic resistance, only really high durability. Ryze already ignored magic resistance (casually teleporting in a PETRICITE Vault that was able to contain the power of World Runes while in a PETRICITE forrest. Ryze 1 shotted a high-tier Voidborn, that while wasn't as powerfull as Vel'Koz (obviosly) , it was still more powerfull than the most. Ryze didn't "defend" himself cause he didn't want to damage the place, since it is a cultural symbol for Ionia and he wouldn't want all Ionia after him cause it would complicate his task. When he was fighting the Voidborn, he didn't care about the enviorment cause there was nothing there but a cave, and he heavly damage the place, causing fissures in the True Ice that was trapping the Voidborn (if it was normal Ice the Voidborn would have had no problem getting past it), as well as making several big rocks (rocks bigger than Ryze that are base-form Nasus size) fall from the roof of the cave and makinga fissure in the roof that allowed a big ray of light enter the cave, and Voidborns are usually found very deep underground . Also are you putting champions in a tier based on how they would face against most other champs there or based on their powerlevel? Ah and Ryze and Syndra have ways to defeat Ascendants (I mean normal ones) Ryze has teleportation hax as well as his root which is even more annoying in-lore since Brand, a pure mage that knows how to shatter Ryze's seals and is empowered by a World Rune couldn't break it. Syndra has telekinessis and could simply throw Nasus around like a ragdoll till his durability starts wearing off. Also Xerath should be in Tier 3. Ah and Nasus almost got 1 shotted by Xerath he doesn't have some special magic resist just durability. Ryze doesn't need conventional durability when he has magic shields and teleportation to further the gap from mele oponents (like Nasus, Ryze outclasses him in ranged-combat power-wise)
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2018-08-24T17:01:34.081+0000) > > Actually Ascendants aren't shown to have magic resistance, only really high durability. That durability is the resut of high mr lol...Other wise a single arcane blast would have turned them to cinder. >Ryze already ignored magic resistance (casually teleporting in a PETRICITE Vault that was able to contain the power of World Runes while in a PETRICITE forrest. Petricite provides magic absorbstion not magic resistance ,they are completely different things ( and we know what petricide does due to galio 's existance).Ryze can ofc use teleportation ( sure a portion of the energ he used will be absorbed but i see no reason for the spell to fizzle). On the other hand if he attacks nasus only a portion of the attack will damage him and lets not forget that nasus can regenerate as well.. > Ryze 1 shotted a high-tier Voidborn, that while wasn't as powerfull as Vel'Koz (obviosly) , it was still more powerfull than the most. Yea although i dont argue with that i dotn see how it can place him higher. >Ryze didn't "defend" himself cause he didn't want to damage the place, since it is a cultural symbol for Ionia and he wouldn't want all Ionia after him cause it would complicate his task. That is specualtion tho...although i didnt doubt that ryze could defeat base humans , i used that fact to prove that ryze has the durability and speed of human and thus he will be speed blitzed by ans ascendand ! can you argue against that? >When he was fighting the Voidborn, he didn't care about the enviorment cause there was nothing there but a cave, and he heavly damage the place, causing fissures in the True Ice that was trapping the Voidborn (if it was normal Ice the Voidborn would have had no problem getting past it), as well as making several big rocks (rocks bigger than Ryze that are base-form Nasus size) fall from the roof of the cave and makinga fissure in the roof that allowed a big ray of light enter the cave, and Voidborns are usually found very deep underground . I took that into consideration how this helps support a ryze upgrade? Also are you putting champions in a tier based on how they would face against most other champs there or based on their powerlevel? On their power level which is directly related to how they can deal with other entities in verse .. > Ah and Ryze and Syndra have ways to defeat Ascendants (I mean normal ones) Ryze has teleportation hax as well as his root which is even more annoying in-lore since Brand, a pure mage that knows how to shatter Ryze's seals and is empowered by a World Rune couldn't break it. Yea i dont think that his root is that effective if it was he would have ended the fight with yogo pretty quickly.Brand is nowhere near the ascended , and yes he has a world rune , however i doubt he uses it effectively , yogo was not even touching the rune and was at the same level with ryze ! i dont see how teleportation will help him..it takes several seconds to perform and given an ascendands speed he would have been killed during casting! Syndra has telekinessis and could simply throw Nasus around like a ragdoll till his durability starts wearing off. Nasus can use magic as well ..if i remember correctly the spell he uses during the cinematic is wither , which will literally insta kill syndra . >Also Xerath should be in Tier 3. i made an extensive comment about xerath in the original post , as it is we have no evidence to support that he can fight a being like orhn that can mel true ice..( not even watchers can) >Ah and Nasus almost got 1 shotted by Xerath he doesn't have some special magic resist just durability. i expained that before.. >Ryze doesn't need conventional durability when he has magic shields >Ryze can die in on hit...and nasus is fast enough to pull that off in a blink of an eye..the speed difference just seals the deal for me ..Also have we seen ryze use magical sields..like ever?( i really dont remember about the sields XD) >and teleportation to further the gap from mele oponents (like Nasus, Ryze outclasses him in ranged-combat power-wise) Teleportation takes several seconds to perform also the speed difference counters that as well..ryze can not tp infinately! edit : sorry for the lack of clarity int eh quotes , it just was somewhat difficult to seperate your quotes
: > I mean celestials seems to relay on numbers than individual power ( a lot of vessels). As far as we know none of the Aspects have been show working together, so their numbers mean nothing if they're off doing their own things. I believe Rioters also confirmed that the Ascended and the Aspects vary along a power spectrum, some Aspects are as strong as/ stronger than some Ascended and vice versa. (If we are counting _cans_ technically {{champion:80}} and possibly other Aspects, could summon {{champion:136}} in a fight.) > Their body is weak and fragile , the conciousness the body initialy belonged may rebel against the darkin , leading to difficulites in control of their own body! This does not apply to {{champion:266}} because none of his hosts are 'champion level of strength' and depending on the situation Aatrox could become increasingly difficult to defeat, for example if they are fighting among an army of weaker soldiers he could easily heal from them and if they are fighting after he has already defeated dozens of others making his vessel stronger. Likewise {{champion:161}}, for him to be that high up you have to assume he has defeated Ascended/ Aspects in the past, otherwise its questionable whether he would be able to analyse and deconstruct the 'god-factor' infused in such beings without taking lethal damage. Even if he does have information this 'god-factor' each person would have a different fighting style he'd have to counter as well. Which means we have to ask how combat efficient is Vel'koz? **** Edit: > {{champion:161}} is the strongest voidborn and most likely at the same level as nasus! In fall of icathia we saw other less intelligent and evolved voidborn overpowering ascendants! A better assumption to make would be to say, the Voidborn released in Icathia were that powerful because of previous info Vel'koz sent back to the Void.
> [{quoted}](name=Wrathof300,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-24T17:03:04.562+0000) > > As far as we know none of the Aspects have been show working together, so their numbers mean nothing if they're off doing their own things. I believe Rioters also confirmed that the Ascended and the Aspects vary along a power spectrum, some Aspects are as strong as/ stronger than some Ascended and vice versa. > (If we are counting _cans_ technically {{champion:80}} and possibly other Aspects, could summon {{champion:136}} in a fight.) > Aspects are problematic in scaling in geneal , and no we dont count aurelion summoning! > This does not apply to {{champion:266}} because none of his hosts are 'champion level of strength' and depending on the situation Aatrox could become increasingly difficult to defeat, for example if they are fighting among an army of weaker soldiers he could easily heal from them and if they are fighting after he has already defeated dozens of others making his vessel stronger. > Agreed , thats why i placed him first...However currently i doubt he can compete with the upper tiers..maybe i can push him to tier 5 ? has he presented any amgic resistance ? i really dont remember! > Likewise {{champion:161}}, for him to be that high up you have to assume he has defeated Ascended/ Aspects in the past, otherwise its questionable whether he would be able to analyse and deconstruct the 'god-factor' infused in such beings without taking lethal damage. Even if he does have information this 'god-factor' each person would have a different fighting style he'd have to counter as well. Which means we have to ask how combat efficient is Vel'koz? The reasons velkoz is up there are 2 : 1) he is the most powerful and oldest voidborn ( and we saw that ryze had problem against one , most likely less powerful). 2) Void energy /magic bypasses the conventional resistances of the ascended ( see the fall fo icathia).
Pale Mask (EUW)
: Too many tiers imo. It's unnecessary. Aurelion Sol is fine. Kindred pretend to be death, but have no actual fighting capability, rather reaping the souls that they can get to. I've never liked putting them on tier lists. Ryze, Lissandra and Vel'Koz should be on the same tier. Ryze is incredibly powerful, but Lissandra should be able to match him, considering she's nigh immortal, sealed several Watchers away and keeps those Watchers sealed. Vel'Koz needs no explanation; he's the oldest, most powerful and most intelligent Voidborn, and as close to a Watcher in power as Voidborn can get. Their cunning and experience greatly surpasses his. In Ryze's case, world runes shouldn't be considered at all, because while it's true that Ryze can use them, he will _never_ do it - not even in hypothetical situations. It goes against his very character. This doesn't move him off of his position, though. The Demigods should be tier 2 alongside Ryze, Lissandra and Vel'Koz. Ascended and Darkin are around the same power level. Kayle, Morgana and Soraka can probably be squeezed somewhere in here. Malzahar and Karma are not that powerful.
> [{quoted}](name=Tharizdûn,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-24T16:40:03.675+0000) > > Too many tiers imo. It's unnecessary. > > Aurelion Sol is fine. Kindred pretend to be death, but have no actual fighting capability, rather reaping the souls that they can get to. I've never liked putting them on tier lists. > > Ryze, Lissandra and Vel'Koz should be on the same tier. Ryze is incredibly powerful, but Lissandra should be able to match him, considering she's nigh immortal, sealed several Watchers away and keeps those Watchers sealed. Vel'Koz needs no explanation; he's the oldest, most powerful and most intelligent Voidborn, and as close to a Watcher in power as Voidborn can get. Their cunning and experience greatly surpasses his. > > In Ryze's case, world runes shouldn't be considered at all, because while it's true that Ryze can use them, he will _never_ do it - not even in hypothetical situations. It goes against his very character. This doesn't move him off of his position, though. > 1.i know that he wouldnt i explicitely stated that ....but he still can. In ryze cases if we dont count world runes he is tier 5 at best...we dont have feats to support a higher placement ..He was sevearly injured by an ionian assasin what leads you to beleive that he can win against an ascendand? Ascendands will speed blitz him! > The Demigods should be tier 2 alongside Ryze, Lissandra and Vel'Koz. The demigods are embodiments of elemental powers with aoe capabilites (see anivia) Ryze is a human archamge , that is damaged by a dagger..( if we dotn count runes) > Ascended and Darkin are around the same power level. I explained why this is not the case..read darkin description! >Kayle, Morgana and Soraka can probably be squeezed somewhere in here. kayle and morgana are in a limbo and soraka is just a healer nothing special power wise! > Malzahar and Karma are not that powerful. Malzahar scales from the targonian avatars the simmilarity is pretty clear...also why malzahar isnt that powerful and pantheon is for example? Karma destroyed a noxian ship with one blow ...also the real karma unless banished can come back forever! Also for further clarification on ryze , syndra vel and lissandra read my answer to RyzeTheSmurfMage
DirigoX (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Emperor of Fate,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-24T15:12:53.154+0000) **In general feets will be valued more than anything else.** > In that case {{champion:6}} is the clear winner
> [{quoted}](name=DirigoX,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-24T16:46:54.466+0000) > > **In general feets will be valued more than anything else.** > > In that case {{champion:6}} is the clear winner typos for the win anyway i meant feats !
: *sees {{champion:13}} * *_I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED_* Thanks for respecting the blue archmage . But ignoring the Runes, I would say he is tier 4. Also Syndra is also tier 4. Same with Brand cause he still has that World Rune
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeTheSmurfMage,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-24T15:41:23.148+0000) > > *sees {{champion:13}} * > *_I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED_* XD > Thanks for respecting the blue archmage . But ignoring the Runes, I would say he is tier 4. Also Syndra is also tier 4. Same with Brand cause he still has that World Rune The reason why i consider (base) ryze syndra and other mages tier 5 is because they can not really deal with the magic resistance ascendants have and are speed blitzed by them..Remember no matter how powerful they still have human bodies (ryze couldnt defend against multiple ionian humans at once ..while ascendants killed 12 if a remember correctly with one blow ). the reason velkoz is in tiwe 4 is because he ignores magic resistance and is faster than the average human ( his short story) Lissandra coudl simply freeze the ascendants in true ice..ryze or syndra lack hax abilties like that.. edit : void powers ignore conventional magic resistance in general ( sicne their originate from another plane of existance)
: I do not think Malphite's old lore is "canon", but isn't he really strong? and this.... "The most powerful being in the entire universe at the moment would have to be Bard. He can travel through dimensions, realities, worlds, he can stop time. He guards Runeterra from all threats. The thing that shows his power the most, though, is that, well, he doesn't care about certain events. He didn't find the Watchers, nor the Ascension of Xerath a threat. He knows more than any mortal does, and, is currently in a much better spot than Aurelion Sol. The reason why he is at the top of this list is mostly because Aurelion Sol is enslaved, though even if he wasn't, Bard could most likely defeat Aurelion Sol, judging by Aurelion's ego. And, that is why Bard takes the first place as the most powerful champion in the League of Legends."
> [{quoted}](name=webstar1995,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=uG2L4Jpv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-24T15:31:19.662+0000) > > I do not think Malphite's old lore is "canon", but isn't he really strong? > > and this.... > > "The most powerful being in the entire universe at the moment would have to be Bard. He can travel through dimensions, realities, worlds, he can stop time. He guards Runeterra from all threats. The thing that shows his power the most, though, is that, well, he doesn't care about certain events. He didn't find the Watchers, nor the Ascension of Xerath a threat. He knows more than any mortal does, and, is currently in a much better spot than Aurelion Sol. The reason why he is at the top of this list is mostly because Aurelion Sol is enslaved, though even if he wasn't, Bard could most likely defeat Aurelion Sol, judging by Aurelion's ego. And, that is why Bard takes the first place as the most powerful champion in the League of Legends." Bard is another can of worms entirely so far he has no feats to support significant power...most of the things you present as ''abilities ''are head-canon at best..where did you find that bard can stop time? How did you know that bard can even stop xerath or the void? Just because bard can travel in other realms does not make him powerful .**.dont get me wrong bard could be powerful but we have no feats to support that ! ** edit : read my third clarification point!
Zapzya (OCE)
: Have Riot changed their lore update schedule?
I think that smaller and more frequent lore updates are better ..i also beleive that we are getting more content overall as well!
Rioter Comments
: Lissandra's Bio Should Get Rewritten
I am conflicted now..although i did like the way the story was told a lot i understand that for a biography it was somewhat unfitting.I really dont know , from the one side questions like : why did she sacrificed her sisters and erase their history can be ansewered in futere lore pieces , i mean lissandras lore is not the first one that lefts questions ananswered .. On the other side it would be nice if we knew what lissandras goal is now.. ( except from keeping the watchers trapped ) because although we can speculate a clear answer is more suitable for a bio! However, that being said i dont agree that lissandra was out of character during the bio , of course you would panic if you had to choose between killing your own family or letting the world be consumed by eternal darkness.Also fearing the watchers ( creatures able to end the universe) is understandable and makes her feel real... All in all iam leaning towards keeping the bio as it is and expand it with other stories , i dont see how this can be more harmful than the bio of , lets say , kindred ! If riot changes one vague lore then it must replace all vague bios ..and in the end what or who will decide when a bio is vague enough to be rewritten ? we dont know what leblanc's goal is or how did she lived for so long should her bio be rewritten ? i don think so... The same applies to lissandra the mysteries of the past will slowly be unfolded we dont need to get all the answers in one bio..
: One funny thing about Lissandra's story
''With her sight taken, Lissandra chose instead to walk in dreams. As she navigated the fitful visions of those around her'' also deef people are able to speakif they ahve learned to do so before their loss off hearing!
: "Confused and vague writing" doesn't equate to "complex themes". The writing itself didn't introduce any such themes, it was just so vague and all-over-the-place that you were able to freely conjure up those themes in your head and make them fit. It's very similar to a lot of SoulsBorne fan theories. The writing leaves a lot unsaid, in this case too much imo, and people start running wild with their ideas and theories. As an example, this line from your OP: >Tormented by nihilistic visions of her demise see sought eternity no matter the cost , and the quicker way to grasp eternity was through oblivion We have no reason to believe she was tormented by anything. We don't even have a reason to believe she was after immortality, as you seem to suggest, but rather it seems the story is suggesting she's reaching for a higher plane of existence entirely. Again though, it's left unsaid and we're just grasping. Or this line: >Then she made the pact with the nightmares from beyond promising to be their herald ,and thus sacrificing all creation in the altar of false dreams , freezing her humanity in the process.Clothed in ice the ice witch relished a period of fullfilment until her sisters shattered the glacier prison that had traped her sight along with time Yes, she made a pact with the Watchers, that's accurate. But nothing about this implies "freezing her humanity", or losing it in any way. She became Iceborn, but so did her sisters. This doesn't seem to require any loss of humanity, it seems more like an addition. >their ideals sook lissandra and in a moment of epiphany she realized that what mattered the most to her was family and not eternal life ..and then her vision was restored and desperately tried to make the watchers change their plans ( or so she hoped) ..''yes more time'' she surely thought ''i can persuade them to stay silent ..and then , and then we will be together for ever '' This...doesn't seem accurate. More like she was trying to soothe and persuade her sisters into following along with her plan, and her plea for more time was specifically so that she could win her sisters over to her side and have their support. Her final betrayal reads more like a snap-decision caused by pressure and a lack of time. But at the same time if that was her plan why get her sisters killed? Why were these her only choices, and why did she have to sacrifice them? It just feels like the story is conflicting with itself, and I can't get any sense of who Lissandra actually is as a character because of it. We don't even really know why Lissandra is trying to erase history. To make her look good? But she's hidden away, out of sight, she doesn't even want to be seen. Is it to hide the information about the Void? Seems counter-productive if she's against them now. If True-Ice is needed to keep the threat sealed away, why kill off the reincarnations of her sisters? Wouldn't they be able to help with that? What the hell? And just to top it all off, if she's already betrayed both the Void and her sisters, why the hell would she think professing loyalty to the Void would be of any help at all? Is she just a weak-willed character now? Because that's the impression I'm getting. This character just doesn't make any sense to me. Also, your post is very hard to read and grab quotes from without formatting of any kind. Just a heads-up.
> [{quoted}](name=GingahBread,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=99Vd2rk2,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-21T02:26:10.117+0000) > > "Confused and vague writing" doesn't equate to "complex themes". The writing itself didn't introduce any such themes, it was just so vague and all-over-the-place that you were able to freely conjure up those themes in your head and make them fit. > This is your opinion of course it introduced some themes...i explained in detail my interpretation of the story....Also i never said that confusing equals complex , i said that the so called vagueness of the story makes it interesting and unique since you have to think in order give your interpretation of it .That story **just so happens to** introduce some complex themes as well , i may havent phrased it so well so confusion is understandable ! ( also to be even clearer i never implied that what i beleive to be the case about the story is the only possible interpretation of it) > It's very similar to a lot of SoulsBorne fan theories. The writing leaves a lot unsaid, in this case too much imo, and people start running wild with their ideas and theories. As an example, this line from your OP: > > We have no reason to believe she was tormented by anything. We don't even have a reason to believe she was after immortality, as you seem to suggest, but rather it seems the story is suggesting she's reaching for a higher plane of existence entirely. Again though, it's left unsaid and we're just grasping. > ''the lingering abyss promised not only an ending, but infinity. '' and ''the Watchers would grant them** near-immortality** in exchange for preparing Runeterra for the coming of the Void.'' so immortality was the gift of the watchers , existance even after the end of the material world ! > Or this line: > > Yes, she made a pact with the Watchers, that's accurate. But nothing about this implies "freezing her humanity", or losing it in any way. She became Iceborn, but so did her sisters. This doesn't seem to require any loss of humanity, it seems more like an addition. > well siding with entities that want to end the world indicates complete apathy towards the mortal world if you ask me..by choosing that path lissandra denied humanity and became something entirely different.Sorry if what i wrote seemed like a condition.. > This...doesn't seem accurate. More like she was trying to soothe and persuade her sisters into following along with her plan, and her plea for more time was specifically so that she could win her sisters over to her side and have their support. > Yea lissandra was trying to find a way to delay the inevitable she really didnt want the world to be destroyed in the first place , she realized that siding with the watchers was a mistake :In that moment, her only choices were to let all the world be consumed, or to give up what she cared for most'' and see chose to protect the world , a world that had previously literaly exchanged with immortality ! Also her sisters was ''what she loved the most''. > Her final betrayal reads more like a snap-decision caused by pressure and a lack of time. But at the same time if that was her plan why get her sisters killed? Why were these her only choices, and why did she have to sacrifice them? It just feels like the story is conflicting with itself, and I can't get any sense of who Lissandra actually is as a character because of it. > The reason lissandra ''betrayed'' her sisters was to trap the watchers without them realizing that she betrayed them as well..we will propably learn about the details of that battle anyway... > We don't even really know why Lissandra is trying to erase history. To make her look good? But she's hidden away, out of sight, she doesn't even want to be seen. > To prevent knowledge leaks about the watchers , remember lissandra was not their only minions what if velkoz learns about their location , or malzahar or even worse , soemone foolish enough that wants to control the watchers and their power. > Is it to hide the information about the Void? Seems counter-productive if she's against them now. > see above.. > If True-Ice is needed to keep the threat sealed away, why kill off the reincarnations of her sisters? Wouldn't they be able to help with that? What the hell? > I think that the reason lissandra want to get rid of sherildas adn avaroshas descendants is in order prevent her lies from being exposed and subsequently her old allegiance with the watchers( in the eye in the abyss story we learn that the frostguards worshipp all the sisters as gods that fought the void imagine what would happen if the frostguards learned that lissandra was an ally of he void....maybe some of them would hurry to do the same in hopes of receiving simmilar powers ) > And just to top it all off, if she's already betrayed both the Void and her sisters, why the hell would she think professing loyalty to the Void would be of any help at all? Is she just a weak-willed character now? Because that's the impression I'm getting. we dont know what exactly happened during the battle of the howling abyss , iam sure we will learn about that soon...a bio can not be huge anyways... > > This character just doesn't make any sense to me. Also, your post is very hard to read and grab quotes from without formatting of any kind. Just a heads-up. Yea thats true ( about the text)
Nylisa (EUW)
: I'm glad we can agree on this. because before Watchers change to masters of the Void, they were an ancient mysterious force in Runettera that could have been enemies of the Void even! i mean Targon has its aspects why not Watchers in Freljord as well? i was imagining the potential of the "Watchers" in a fight against the Void. so Lissandra working for Void was never part of the old lore right? I even went as far as to speculating, maybe Lissandra wants to wake Watchers up because she knows an "unknowable force" is Rising from the Void and she is hoping to use them against it. i took that change in her story as a bad Omen at first but i thought to myself. maybe Void is more complex than i realize? maybe Watchers are like banished Forces of Void that's why they were helping Freljord. or maybe it was part of a bigger scheme and they were looking to achieve something for the Void in Freljord. that made me completely blind to that fact that Lissandra story might change to revolve around this!
> [{quoted}](name=Nylisa,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=99Vd2rk2,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-20T23:27:22.785+0000) > > I'm glad we can agree on this. because before Watchers change to masters of the Void, they were an ancient mysterious force in Runettera that could have been enemies of the Void even! i mean Targon has its aspects why not Watchers in Freljord as well? i was imagining the potential of the "Watchers" in a fight against the Void. so Lissandra working for Void was never part of the old lore right? > That was my line of thinking as well , it would be so cool if lissandra blackmailed , for example , ashe and sejuani into helping her revive the watchers in excange for their help against the void legions that ravage their tribes....( but this went out of the window a lot time ago :( ) > I even went as far as to speculating, maybe Lissandra wants to wake Watchers up because she knows an "unknowable force" is Rising from the Void and she is hoping to use them against it. > > i took that change in her story as a bad Omen at first but i thought to myself. maybe Void is more complex than i realize? maybe Watchers are like banished Forces of Void that's why they were helping Freljord. or maybe it was part of a bigger scheme and they were looking to achieve something for the Void in Freljord. that made me completely blind to that fact that Lissandra story might change to revolve around this! I guess time will tell how good of a choice that was personaly i love the **current** changes , but i maybe read into them a little too much , i have extremely high expectations for the futere so i hope i wont be dissapointed !
Nylisa (EUW)
: >the elements that were discarded were already core themes of other champions ( malzahar , leblanc) That's exactly what bothers me. i'll explain why. you mentioned: >"what motivation lissandra ahd to help the void bring the end of the world ? thats right none." forgive me but that's wrong isn't it? we were never told she is trying to bring void back to end the world! she was suppose to bring the watchers back. last time they were in Freljord, things were great. they gave the sisters so many things until Avarosan decided to rebel against them. the first thing that bothered me was that watchers were changed into void masters. having another mysterious force rising from Freljord that is not Void "yet again" was a thrill for me and that was gone! I probably end up loving this Lissandra as time passes because i just love Freljord, but for now its a bit of a bumper.
> [{quoted}](name=Nylisa,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=99Vd2rk2,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-20T23:07:26.405+0000) > > That's exactly what bothers me. i'll explain why. > > you mentioned: > > forgive me but that's wrong isn't it? we were never told she is trying to bring void back to end the world! she was suppose to bring the watchers back. last time they were in Freljord, things were great. they gave the sisters so many things until Avarosan decided to rebel against them. Yea i was talking about the lissandra that served the void and wanted to bring an end to everything .. >the first thing that bothered me was that watchers were changed into void masters. having another mysterious force rising from Freljord that is not Void "yet again" was a thrill for me and that was gone! The change of of the watchers into vodi masters is ''another story'' as lissandra would have said....~~i tend to agree with you tho~~ > I probably end up loving this Lissandra as time passes because i just love Freljord, but for now its a bit of a bumper. This is completely understandable !
: Since Lissandra is one of my favorite characters, I'm glad she has some more depth. Like OP said, the core elements of her story were maintained - yes she's now trying to prevent the Watchers from returning where originally she was trying to bring them back but that was necessary once the Watchers became lords of the Void. Otherwise she would literally be a Frejlord version of Malzahar. I'm actually okay with that particular turn around anyways, seeing as villain who wants to unleash doom upon the world is pretty overdone. But for those who say she's not a villain anymore, I think we should remember she's not exactly on the side of the angels here. She may be fighting for a "greater good" - as in stop the Void - but she's clearly still pretty morally gray. Nunu's lore talks about the Yetis being betrayed "by the blind one," so she's definitely screwed some people over - which is really just part and parcel of having "plans within plans." Currently, I'm equating her somewhat with Illidan - being viewed as a villain but trying to keep a greater evil at bay, but still not exactly a _good_ person, in the classic sense of the word. Not to mention initially allying with said greater evil before turning on them. TL;DR If you think about it, she's still the Ice Witch, just with more interesting story.
> [{quoted}](name=PerchancetoGame,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=99Vd2rk2,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-20T22:16:28.827+0000) > > Since Lissandra is one of my favorite characters, I'm glad she has some more depth. Like OP said, the core elements of her story were maintained - yes she's now trying to prevent the Watchers from returning where originally she was trying to bring them back but that was necessary once the Watchers became lords of the Void. Otherwise she would literally be a Frejlord version of Malzahar. > > I'm actually okay with that particular turn around anyways, seeing as villain who wants to unleash doom upon the world is pretty overdone. But for those who say she's not a villain anymore, I think we should remember she's not exactly on the side of the angels here. She may be fighting for a "greater good" - as in stop the Void - but she's clearly still pretty morally gray. Nunu's lore talks about the Yetis being betrayed "by the blind one," so she's definitely screwed some people over - which is really just part and parcel of having "plans within plans." > > Currently, I'm equating her somewhat with Illidan - being viewed as a villain but trying to keep a greater evil at bay, but still not exactly a _good_ person, in the classic sense of the word. Not to mention initially allying with said greater evil before turning on them. > > TL;DR If you think about it, she's still the Ice Witch, just with more interesting story. I agree with the points you make and i think more people should have given the topic a little more thought before jumping into conclusions about champion deleting!
Nylisa (EUW)
: She had no motivation because we were never given any information about it. it's not that this story isn't great, it's that some of us loved the way she was and was looking forward to how that story progress! she did not seem to be just a random villain. i spent years waiting for her story update to see what her motivation was what is so mysterious about her plans, what is she after based on the things i knew about her. it's like i read first chapter of the book waiting for the second chapter but instead i was handed a new book, its not that the new book is bad. it's that i was already invested in the first one.
> [{quoted}](name=Nylisa,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=99Vd2rk2,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-08-20T22:17:43.910+0000) > > She had no motivation because we were never given any information about it. it's not that this story isn't great, it's that some of us loved the way she was and was looking forward to how that story progress! > > i spent years waiting for her story update to see what her motivation was what is so mysterious about her plans, what is she after based on the things i knew about her. it's like i read first chapter of the book waiting for the second chapter but instead i was handed a new book, its not that the new book is bad. it's that i was already invested in the first one. i understand your poitn but in all honesty i think that most of her old elements were kept intact..think about it she is still an ice witch that at one point in time allied witht the watchers because they promised her great power ..then the ideology of her sisters forced her to open he eyes to the horrors she was about to unleash and at the last moment she betrayed both! She is still closer to evil than good and still tries to rewrite history ..the elements that were discarded were already core themes of other champions ( malzahar , leblanc) ,..i as a lot of you was here since (almost ) the begining ( season 2) so its not like i dotn understand you it is that i try to embrace a story before i trash talk about it ( this is not an attack on you i speak in general about the reactions i saw on boards )or call it a delete of a champion!
: Idk man. They just basically retconned her voice lines, witch self, long quote for howling abyss. THAT made her character for me. Look at this cinematic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPBUcguEGAI Refresh your memory guys. THIS is the evil witch. Not some Malzahar#2. I really don't know about making her an anti-hero/ less of a villain. She is the witch that has plans within plans!
> [{quoted}](name=MagmusOverlord,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=99Vd2rk2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-20T21:43:54.399+0000) > > Idk man. They just basically retconned her voice lines, witch self, long quote for howling abyss. THAT made her character for me. > > Look at this cinematic. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPBUcguEGAI > > Refresh your memory guys. THIS is the evil witch. Not some Malzahar#2. I really don't know about making her an anti-hero/ less of a villain. She is the witch that has plans within plans! i have heard that clip a dozen times ......now let me ask you what motivation lissandra ahd to help the void bring the end of the world ? thats right none..i explained the nuances of her current character in my post in detail ( interpretation part ) . Lissandra is still an ice witch btw so pls take a second look at her stories i think if you give them a chance you will love them{{sticker:sg-soraka}}
Pale Mask (EUW)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Tharizdûn,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cKr2v5E8,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-20T21:05:22.555+0000) > > This being a retcon is his opinion as well. > > Is he not allowed to have it? when did i said that? i just expressed my opinion and he replied to me in a passive agressive manner!
The Iceborn (EUNE)
: Freljord unclarified Lore Questions collected
1) lissandra can not wield dark ice dark ice .dark is nothign more than tainted true ice ''slowly tainting the True Ice around them into something darker. '' (Watchers are the ones with tainting capabilites ) 2)''her only choices were to let all the world be consumed, or to give up what she cared for most'' her sisters or in otehr words family is what lissandra truly cared the most for ( you can see my full analysis on that topic in my thread) 3)watchers gave her ice powers , ( or power to control her enviroment ) those powers combined with the durability of the bridge orhn created keep watcers trapped into the abyss. 4)'' as manifested once more in two powerful Iceborn—one an idealist, the other a conqueror'' they descendants are also called iceborn that answers 5 as well 6) proably not since you knwo runeterra stills is at one piece.. 7)''The monstrous beings she had frozen were merely slumbering, slowly tainting the True Ice around them into something darker.'' they rest...:P 8) to use his magic in order to hopefuly defeat the watchers again when they emerge! 9) Her inner circle propably yes since they already know abiut the watchers there is no reason to hide herslef edit : this took way too long
The Iceborn (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Emperor of Fate,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cKr2v5E8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-20T20:34:58.991+0000) > > All of those questions are answered in lissandras lore idont know ..you can read it maybe? > > > edit : thinking about it is part of the process ... Not that I noticed... Hmm This thread was made for everyone who didnt quite understand the story maybe you can help clarify some things ?
> [{quoted}](name=The Iceborn,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cKr2v5E8,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-20T20:42:38.834+0000) > > Not that I noticed... Hmm > This thread was made for everyone who didnt quite understand the story maybe you can help clarify some things ? wait iam in game right now in 10 mins or so i will
: > [{quoted}](name=Emperor of Fate,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cKr2v5E8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-20T20:36:11.794+0000) > > improvements! what ever make you sleep at night {{sticker:vlad-salute}}
> [{quoted}](name=Camille Ferrøs,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cKr2v5E8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-20T20:38:50.918+0000) > > what ever make you sleep at night {{sticker:vlad-salute}} its called an opinion..you know people tend to have different ones from time to time !
: retcons.
> [{quoted}](name=Camille Ferrøs,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cKr2v5E8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-20T20:31:10.404+0000) > > retcons. improvements!
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Emperor of Fate

Level 109 (EUNE)
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