: A good camille can beat Jax, trundle is just a joke cuz you simple just E off of his pillar; urgot is the only iffy one, but even then she has a better teamfighting presence than him. Camille's ultimate is excellent for roaming mid, which is what most camille mains (including myself) do. Your opponent isn't destroying you in trades because of your shield. She can hard push once she gets Tiamat, which is usually when most Camilles start roaming.
> [{quoted}](name=Necroash,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P0FA7lfA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T23:56:13.548+0000) > > A good camille can beat Jax, trundle is just a joke cuz you simple just E off of his pillar; urgot is the only iffy one, but even then she has a better teamfighting presence than him. Camille's ultimate is excellent for roaming mid, which is what most camille mains (including myself) do. Your opponent isn't destroying you in trades because of your shield. She can hard push once she gets Tiamat, which is usually when most Camilles start roaming. Yes, A Camille player that is vastly superior to a Jax player can win. However, you should never assume that you are better than your opponent. Given equal skill, the Jax should always win. As for trundle. I mean, the pillar thing is irrelevant because he just presses r and face tanks you to deaht. Early game Camille simply does not deal even remotely enough dmg to stand up to Trundle, and now you've used your only escape to engage on him. Sure, you can roam mid but if we're being honest, thats a subpar strategy. Mid is a short lane that's hard to gank, and it assumes the enemy mid is too dumb to just look at the map. There's a reason roaming top laners are not very common, and it's because it's not a very effective strategy compared to just dominating the fuck out of it. I mena... THey also just nerfed tiamat, so that sucks.
: Woah, slow down there kiddo. Camille does pretty well against a lot of these. The only champs I see that counters Camille would be Darius, Fiora, Quinn, Poppy, Trynd and Teemo. Just remember Camille's strengths come from roaming and snowballing the other lanes, while laning phase is just a farm-fest if she gets into a troubling matchup.
> [{quoted}](name=Necroash,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P0FA7lfA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-18T19:11:33.483+0000) > > Woah, slow down there kiddo. Camille does pretty well against a lot of these. The only champs I see that counters Camille would be Darius, Fiora, Quinn, Poppy, Trynd and Teemo. Just remember Camille's strengths come from roaming and snowballing the other lanes, while laning phase is just a farm-fest if she gets into a troubling matchup. Yeah, well top lane isn't a roaming lane. You're on the most remote side of the map, as far away from people as you can get, as far away from dragon as you can get. But even beyond that, It's dumb to argue that she's a roaming champion. Roaming requries 2 things, pushing and snowballing. If your opponent is constantly destroying you in trades and pushing you in, you can't actually roam, because they'll take your tower and the thousand gold they gain from the tower plating before you even reach mid lane. Beyond that, even if you're winning, you have constantly be hard pushing to put your lane in a position where you have time to roam. Camille can't do either of these things because her numbers are so shit. Also... I mean, do u genuinly believe Camille wins against Trundle? Or Urgot? Or Jax? They all face tank her and shitstomped her.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Stop being so triggered lol, i said remove or change the **role**, aka move them to the jungle or something else. NOT completely delete them. You should be able to take your beloved sup champs to the jungle, and they would serve the same purpose in teamfights and objective control and so on. Calm your titties and learn to read. On your second point, all the things you mention like lane dominance, adc's being weak, more jungle ganks could easily be adjusted. E.g. nerfs to the lane dominant ADCs. Putting higher values on missed jungle creep, so jungle is forced to farm more so on. Incentivizing early farming instead of ganking and staying on your "own" side of the jungle. It could all be adjusted, even the players would learn after a few games and a new meta would develop. Might seem like a high price to pay, but the game is already in complete shit state, so turning everything on its head might be a fresh and interesting reboot to the game. Huge changes like this could be introduced through the off-season where nobody plays seriously and give people a few months of casual play to adapt. Lets look at the game today and 8 years ago... its barely the same game anymore. Not the same map, not the same meta, not the same objectives, not the same jungle camps. Almost all the champions have evolved and they have a completely different design philosophy. IMO this change could have a huge influence on bringing old and new players back into the game. Man kids take these posts so personal, cant even have a normal debate without name calling and such... yikes.
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=xEagsOqA,comment-id=0019000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T23:51:53.500+0000) > > Stop being so triggered lol, i said remove or change the **role**, aka move them to the jungle or something else. NOT completely delete them. You should be able to take your beloved sup champs to the jungle, and they would serve the same purpose in teamfights and objective control and so on. Calm your titties and learn to read. > > On your second point, all the things you mention like lane dominance, adc's being weak, more jungle ganks could easily be adjusted. E.g. nerfs to the lane dominant ADCs. Putting higher values on missed jungle creep, so jungle is forced to farm more so on. Incentivizing early farming instead of ganking and staying on your "own" side of the jungle. It could all be adjusted, even the players would learn after a few games and a new meta would develop. > > Might seem like a high price to pay, but the game is already in complete shit state, so turning everything on its head might be a fresh and interesting reboot to the game. Huge changes like this could be introduced through the off-season where nobody plays seriously and give people a few months of casual play to adapt. > > Lets look at the game today and 8 years ago... its barely the same game anymore. Not the same map, not the same meta, not the same objectives, not the same jungle camps. Almost all the champions have evolved and they have a completely different design philosophy. IMO this change could have a huge influence on bringing old and new players back into the game. > > Man kids take these posts so personal, cant even have a normal debate without name calling and such... yikes. your suggestions are insane, dude. "Not completely delete them". Okay, tell me, how do you suggest Janna exist as both a shielding support with almost no cc or damage as well as a jungler? Or Lulu? Soraka? Should shielding/healing supports just not exist? If you think that, you're wrong. I like them. I want them in my game. So, what then is your solution for shielding supports? How the fuck would you design them to be both junglers and be what they are now? Because the thing is, they're not a toxic part of the game. They aren't making it unfun to play, so what justification do you have to do that to them? That goes for your whole argument, you haven't actually established that support is a bad role, just that auto fill is a bad system. Well, I get auto filled onto jungle just as much as support, and I don't like jungle that much either. Therefor, we must ~~remove~~ change the whole fucking role into something completely diffrently because I personally don't want to spend maybe two hours of my life learning how to play it. Instead, all the players who have spent hundreds upon hours in the jungle should lose their favorite role and have to play as a second top support instead, abandoning all they've learned and what they actually like to play. Because I don't like auto fill, right? Do you just not know that some people actually like playing support? Does that concept not make sense to you? Around 15-25% of people are playing support at any given time, do you think pissing off circa a fifth of the player base would go well? And that's assuming everybody else in all the other roles would love it, which is probably not true. Adcs would probably be pretty upset, as would junglers. Also, it would not bring in old players and I can tell you why: They don't like change. Half of them stopped playing because it wasn't the same game as before. I've had old friends jump into the game after like five years, and I've had to explain to them that you can't buy dorans ring as your first support item and shit, to which they said it's bullshit, it was better when they played and they promptly stopped playing again. And lastly, you never actually gave a reason for why this all would be a good idea, except "turning it on its head". If that's what you want, we could make mid a second jungler, or adc. You just gave a few reasons for why it would be okay, which none of are true. It would take more than a few months to get this all balanced dude, this isn't a single champion rework, this is a twenty champion rework. THis isn't like the mage changes, where they essentially just gave one new ability to a few guys and fucked around with their numbers. Which, btw, then took several months to fix it all into a balanced state. I don't think you understand how unbalanced this new system would be, because Riot just would not be able to fix and balance 20 new champions in a role that nobody had any experience with in a completely new fucking game within a few months and expecting them to be able to is jsut ridicules. And that's assuming we only need to fix champions, and only support champions. You suggest overhauling the entire jungle, which is something that has demanded an entire preseason in the past. Now, just adding in a few new monsters and changing teh dragon reward is one thing. Splitting it into two completely different jungles where two junglers just keep to their own side would just be... that times a thousand millions. And, what about adcs. Look at draven, his design is based around needing a support to lock people down so he can kill them. Same goes for Mf, really. If you just move every single support like you insanely suggests, you're probably looking at upwards of 30, if not more, champions that are fine right now but for some reason will be changed completely. Just because you don't want to spend a few games playing support? Your justification for all of this is that you don't want to play support like once every ten games? lol.
: Changing or removing the support role is the wisest move here. Probably gonna piss a few players off, but majority wouldn't care at all (+80%). They just want to do damage and carry, why do you think champions like {{champion:143}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:555}} are so popular? Rito has changed entire champion classes, rune/mastery system, the map, towers, dragons, baron, plants, herald and everything in between. _"~~Deleting~~ Overhauling"_ a class wouldn't really be a problem, sure some crybabies but its for the overall health of the game. It would be a net positive. Keep in mind that support was not considered a role in the early days and they can with some effort go back to this concept. They could introduce 2 junglers; one for each side of the map, tweak xp, create more jungle camps on each side and remove the support items. I am sure this would be possible and would open up interesting strategies and make it more exciting for the 5th player. My point remains; having 1 shitty chore role out of 5 is unhealthy and a poor direction to lead the meta. I dont want or need to feel responsible for your enjoyment, that not my job, its riots. You can call me dick or whatever for standing my ground, but it doesnt change the fact that autofill is causing major frustration amongst players especially those trying to climb and who are *forced to waste elo and time archieving nothing. * _Yes you are **forced** to play sup by the client._
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=xEagsOqA,comment-id=00190000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T21:13:33.012+0000) > > Changing or removing the support role is the wisest move here. Probably gonna piss a few players off, but majority wouldn't care at all (+80%). They just want to do damage and carry, why do you think champions like {{champion:143}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:555}} are so popular? > > Rito has changed entire champion classes, rune/mastery system, the map, towers, dragons, baron, plants, herald and everything in between. _"~~Deleting~~ Overhauling"_ a class wouldn't really be a problem, sure some crybabies but its for the overall health of the game. It would be a net positive. > > > Keep in mind that support was not considered a role in the early days and they can with some effort go back to this concept. They could introduce 2 junglers; one for each side of the map, tweak xp, create more jungle camps on each side and remove the support items. I am sure this would be possible and would open up interesting strategies and make it more exciting for the 5th player. > > My point remains; having 1 shitty chore role out of 5 is unhealthy and a poor direction to lead the meta. > I dont want or need to feel responsible for your enjoyment, that not my job, its riots. You can call me dick or whatever for standing my ground, but it doesnt change the fact that autofill is causing major frustration amongst players especially those trying to climb and who are *forced to waste elo and time archieving nothing. > > * _Yes you are **forced** to play sup by the client._ But it being a shitty role is your opinion, lad. Firstly, Support isn't a shitty role at all, since plenty of people do like being supportive players. Sure, perhaps not hte majority, but more than you seem to think. That's why pretty much every single role playing game ever has had a healing class. Because some people like to heal and help their allies. Duh Secondly, its needed for the balance of the game. If you remove supports and replace it with another role, you won't just affect that, you'll affect adc's too, which have most of the early game power, which would then impact the entire pace of the game. Supports exist because adc's are weak and vulnerable early, they need to hold a supports hand so they don't get lost at the mall early game. If you remove that and replace it with another jungler, what happens to adc's? Weak early game adc's like sivir will just get completely dominated by the likes of draven without the help of a support. More over, waht would be the role of an adc? Both "bot-side" junglers would just constantly hug bot side, since the adc's are super weak and vulnerable, thus making them prime gank targets, which would also force the bot side junglers to constantly be around bot side to guard it, which would just make them supports with extra steps added. What's your fix to that, not make adc's weak early game? Okay, then what is the point of lucian, draven and mf, who are supposed to be early game adc's? What is the difference between an adc and a mage at that point, except one deals magic damage and one deals physical damage? Also, if you make them strong early, they can't be as strong late because you can't have a role being too good at too many things, so what then? If adc isn't the late game role, then which is? What about the players who want to play for late game? Did you even concider any of these things? And that's not even counting in that doing this would probably just kill the fucking game. Doing this would make it completely unrecognizeable as league of legends except that the characters are the same. The flow of hte game would be completely different, the porpuse and strenghts of roles, how lanes are played, map rotations, everything would just get scrambled into hell and even pro players who spend their lives learning this shit would have a hard time adapting to it, much less casuals who just play a few games every now again for fun. Changing runes, dragons and barons is one thing. They have all remained the same at the bottom level. Runes enhance your character in different ways beyond just your in-game items. You can kill dragon or baron for some kind of reward that has changed every now and again. Towers has had a few nerfs and buffs but nothing more than first tower bonus. Which, like herald, isn't changing or removing something, its adding something new. And no, Riot has never fucking ever changed a class to the degree you're suggesting. They have made some small general changes to assassins for example, but every assassin remained an assassin after the assassin rework. Those who didn't was nerfed back into assassins promplty. Certain toxic or bad champions have been reworked, but never a bunch at the same time. For good reason. The first one I've already mentioned. It would be so hard to adapt to new things. It can take a month for the community to get adjusted to just a single new character, maybe even more. Imagine around 20 champions being completely changed. It'd be fucking insane. And, how the fuck do you expect riot to be able to balance all of it? THey can barely manage to design one new balanced champion. Camille and Ornn both took months to find a place in the meta where they weren't completely broken or useless, imagine them doing that to 20 champions in a completely new role that had never existed before. Do you see the fucking problem? And the biggest part of it is that support isn't even a toxic or badly designed part of the game. Like i've said, every single class-based game ever has had some sort of a supporting role or character. Because SOME PEOPLE JUST LIKE DOING THAT. Would you be okay with jsut flat out removing assassins from the game? Cuz A lot of people utterly hate them, but they're needed for the game to exist in some state (though, I do admit that they are currently a bit too bursty with nothing else to them). Or, how about early game bullies, huh? I find them toxic and frustrating to play against. They frankly ruin my games. So lets just remove every single early game champion because I find them annoying. No, you mongaloid, lets not that do. I'll be the first to admit that there are problems with support, just like every god damned role, but just flat out removing them would be bonkers. Don't rip shit out of the game that people like, fix it.
: I hope you realize that this discussion is not really about you or me, because whether we change our behaviour won't make any difference in the bigger picture. I am not saying you are less important than me, but you can't design a game where 1 player has to sacrifice his enjoyment for the sake of other players... thats just bad design phillosphy. You have to look at cause and effect and what incentivizes people to play the support role. At the moment there is very little and thats why the role is unpopular and autofill function is needed. Its overall a bad game design, if players need to suffer because support role is boring and tedious and at the same time offers lower impact than other roles. Imagine if all roles were equally fun and impactful, then there would be no need for autofill and nobody would complain.
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=xEagsOqA,comment-id=001900000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T17:08:14.404+0000) > > I hope you realize that this discussion is not really about you or me, because whether we change our behaviour won't make any difference in the bigger picture. > > I am not saying you are less important than me, but you can't design a game where 1 player has to sacrifice his enjoyment for the sake of other players... thats just bad design phillosphy. > > You have to look at cause and effect and what incentivizes people to play the support role. At the moment there is very little and thats why the role is unpopular and autofill function is needed. Its overall a bad game design, if players need to suffer because support role is boring and tedious and at the same time offers lower impact than other roles. > > Imagine if all roles were equally fun and impactful, then there would be no need for autofill and nobody would complain. Because neither solution is fun. It's not fun waiting ten minutes for a game, its not fun to play a role u don't really want. I'd rather play support, because really, it isn't that bad. The thing is that your little dream where every role is equally important and fun is basically impossible. If you look at every single comptetive pvp game with different classes, some are always better than others. In wow pvp, some roles are shit and others are broken, same for For honor, Dota, star craft, literally every single pvp game with classes or different factions ever. That's not a solution, because it's impossible. Support will always be less popular unless its a really strong class, becuase it's a utility class, not a power class. Most players want to have massive health bars or see other players healthbars melt thanks to their own plays. Just using {{item:2065}} to speed somebody up to melt another player isn't quite as exciting. However, unless you're suggesting completely overhauling the core design of supports, which would not only piss off those who do like to support, and probably just break the game because of how impossible it would be to get the new designs working, you have to choose one of them. And regardless of what you may feel like, riot has stated that a majority of players prefer autofill to longer queue times. If it was the other way around, they'd just give us increased queue times. Riot doesn't win by pissing us off, believe it or not. Now, you have two options: Leave the game or adapt. Or, I guess I lied since there is a third option: Continue to be a dick head and ruin the game for 4 players because you don't like to play the game you're playing.
: Why so butthurt? Because of meeks like you, this game is going down the drain. Rito looks at you and thinks: _"Hey these guys are not gonna complain, even if we treat them like slaves and force them into games they dont want to play... Why fix the core issues of the game if you can make kids happy with shitty pajama skin$."_
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=xEagsOqA,comment-id=0019000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T16:33:21.200+0000) > > Why so butthurt? > > Because of meeks like you, this game is going down the drain. > > Rito looks at you and thinks: > _"Hey these guys are not gonna complain, even if we treat them like slaves and force them into games they dont want to play... Why fix the core issues of the game if you can make kids happy with shitty pajama skin$."_ You're not forced to play the game. Again, I could super easily turn this on you. You are forcing me to play a game I don't want to play, a game where one of my teammates doesn't know wtf he's doing. You're treating my experience as less important than yours, and by extension of logic me as less important than you, since apparently wasting my time isn't as grave as wasting your time. Why fix the core issues of my gameplay when I can just tell the kids to stop whining about it. Right?
: I play league for my personal enjoyment, not to learn some useless skill that i dont enjoy. If i want to do some chores, i can do my laundry or clean my house... why the fuck would i waste my precious time doing some useless chore in an online game only to regress in elo? >being good at multiple roles is a skill Most players including me, dont see any value in this skill. I would much rather specialize and improve in certain skills and playstyles that i actually find enjoyable. I would rather wait 10-20 more minutes in queue if i can avoid ~~playing support~~ getting autofilled and suffer for 20+ minutes, putting me on tilt and ruining my next couple of games. I can use that time to destress, learn something, watch videos or listen to music... WITHOUT LOOSING LP. Other player's game quality is honestly not my responsibility, thats not what i signed up for and riot can't expect anything from me here. Of course i will respect other players and not flame them and so on... but If i need to sacrifice **my** enjoyment to please **others**... nope never... its a bad business model. If support is such an unpopular role riot should change it to have more impact (equal gold and xp) or in worst case just remove it.
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=xEagsOqA,comment-id=00190000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T15:53:07.923+0000) > > I play league for my personal enjoyment, not to learn some useless skill that i dont enjoy. If i want to do some chores, i can do my laundry or clean my house... why the fuck would i waste my precious time doing some useless chore in an online game only to regress in elo? > > Most players including me, dont see any value in this skill. I would much rather specialize and improve in certain skills and playstyles that i actually find enjoyable. > > I would rather wait 10-20 more minutes in queue if i can avoid ~~playing support~~ getting autofilled and suffer for 20+ minutes, putting me on tilt and ruining my next couple of games. I can use that time to destress, learn something, watch videos or listen to music... WITHOUT LOOSING LP. > > Other player's game quality is honestly not my responsibility, thats not what i signed up for and riot can't expect anything from me here. Of course i will respect other players and not flame them and so on... but If i need to sacrifice **my** enjoyment to please **others**... nope never... its a bad business model. > > If support is such an unpopular role riot should change it to have more impact (equal gold and xp) or in worst case just remove it. Well, using your selfish logic, idgaf about your problems with autofill and I don't see why I should have to suffer ten minute wait times just because you don't wanna play support. After all **_~~Your enjoyment is not my responsibility~~_**
: Nothing to do about being casual, this should apply in ranked as well. Why do i need to leave and wait 20 min, because riots shitty ass system can't give me the role i want to play? Why does my hard earned 14-20 lp from solo carying previous game, need to be negated by a random autofill? I have basically wasted 2 games (60-120 min) **archieving nothing.** Even dodging a ranked game makes me wait 20 minutes for a "casual" game. What they are basically saying here is that ranked is ~~not always~~ _almost never_ supposed to be a fun experience and that we as customers need to obey the service provider (rito) even if it wastes our time, ruins our mood and maybe even puts 4 other people on tilt. **Sounds like the perfect recipe for an insanely toxic and frustrated community.** *_meanwhile they want me to buy their shitty pajama skin.. fuck off please_
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=xEagsOqA,comment-id=001900000000,timestamp=2018-11-11T13:16:15.625+0000) > > Nothing to do about being casual, this should apply in ranked as well. Why do i need to leave and wait 20 min, because riots shitty ass system can't give me the role i want to play? Why does my hard earned 14-20 lp from solo carying previous game, need to be negated by a random autofill? I have basically wasted 2 games (60-120 min) **archieving nothing.** > > Even dodging a ranked game makes me wait 20 minutes for a "casual" game. > > What they are basically saying here is that ranked is ~~not always~~ _almost never_ supposed to be a fun experience and that we as customers need to obey the service provider (rito) even if it wastes our time, ruins our mood and maybe even puts 4 other people on tilt. > > **Sounds like the perfect recipe for an insanely toxic and frustrated community.** > > *_meanwhile they want me to buy their shitty pajama skin.. fuck off please_ You should wait 5 minutes and lose 3 lp for dodging, not 20 minutes and a bunch of lp, because ranked is the place to test your skills and being good at multiple roles is a skill. Being able to do more than one thing is a skill. Learn it. Also, there's not another option. Either you deal with having to play support every like fifteen games, or you wait much longer for each game. And maybe the wait time wouldn't be that high in lower eloes, but just getting up to platinum is enough is enough for ten minute wait times without autofill. And lastly, you complain about riot ruining the game for you? How about your ruining the game for everybody else by refusing to learn support, either forcing your team to play at an disadvantage or making other players wait a lot longer for matches? Not gonna mention or think about that bit, are ya?
: This is a video game, not a **full time job**. When i log on and queue up for a game, **i am the customer** and riot is providing the service. I decide what i want and do not want. Why would i use my **precious time** doing stuff i dont want to? If i dont want to play support i dont need to.
> [{quoted}](name=wuthappen,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=xEagsOqA,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2018-11-11T10:07:02.879+0000) > > This is a video game, not a **full time job**. > When i log on and queue up for a game, **i am the customer** and riot is providing the service. > I decide what i want and do not want. > Why would i use my **precious time** doing stuff i dont want to? > If i dont want to play support i dont need to. Then leave the lobby. It's ranked, its not casual. If you're going to be casual, leave.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-10-27T01:43:18.171+0000) > > Just because something is possible doesn't mean it should exist. The game right now, for better or for worse, is designed for certain champions to be in certain positions. Let me give an example to you to show why champions like Viktor existing in top lane just doesn't work. > > A few years ago, don't remember exactly when but it was just when Grasp was released, everybody played shit like Tank ekko with it. Top lane became the most boring farmfest ever, and in response, Riot gutted the sustain in top. Hp regen of like half the champions have over time been nerfed. It was because of this that they reworked nerfed dorans shield, which lead to it then becoming reworked later, and why they nerfed the hp regen on corrupting pot and increased the mana regen. They wanted melee people to actually fight top, cuz that's what's fun about the role. And this was a smart move actually. > > Now, of course, this lead to ranged top laners becoming really strong, because sustain was down so much that they had a much easier time poking people down. The extra mana and dmg didn't matter, because they just forced bruisers and fighters out of lane because any fighting could occur. In response to this, Riot nerfed a lot of ranged top laners. Gnar's jump has a 22 sec cd, Vladimirs pool has like a 28 sec cd. Again, these are just a few examples of how they did it. > > Now, it worked. How well it worked is arguable, but it did work. Bruisers have managed to survive the lane thanks to these admittedly small favors they've earned from Riot. > > But, this created a very fragile balance. The bruiser vs ranged top lane match up has always been based either the ranged champion having really long mobility cooldowns that allow the bruiser, when played correctly, to keep up the pressure and win the lane, or have a really shitty late game, as with Jayce for example, so that bruisers can at least hold on and have a chance later. > > Viktor breaks this balance completely. And so does Cassio, btw. > > Viktor simply isn't designed to be top. Jax's stats, cooldowns, damage numbers and all the rest isn't meant to fight Viktor, he's meant to fight darius and to an extant Jayce. And Viktors numbers, stats and cooldowns aren't meant to be used on JAx early, they're meant ot be used on Syndra, Taliyah and whatever else. In mid lane, where everybody has a long ranged cc ability, his forcefield isn't that bad. > In top lane, pretty much nobody has that and his forcefield is insane. > > In mid lane, everybody has some form of ranged poke, so it's okay for a mid laner to have really strong poke, because everybody else has. > Nobody in top lane, except for like Jayce, has super strong poke in top lane. > > In mid lane, everybody has burst, so it's okay for him to have decent burst because everybody else has decent burst. > In top lane, pretty much all dmg is sustained damage and bruisers don't have the stats to survive his burst, making it insane. > > See the problem? See why it breaks the game when champions who aren't designed for top go top? The same goes for all other roles btw. REmember Ezreal jungle, how he broke the game because he wasn't meant to go jungle so they nerfed him super fast? Remember when Graves jungle was first becomming a thing, when he broke the game cuz his numbers were designed for fighting champions, not monsters and how they had to nerf the fuck out of him to the point where he's unplayable anywhere other than jungle? There is a reason ADC is now called Bottom. There is a reason why people try out things that are not normally a thing. If you are smart about it, you can annoy laners really easy... all because people have your mindset. If you do not know how to play against something, then try it for a few games. See how other people deal with it, see the strengths and weaknesses that you could exploit that comes from playing a champ. Sure you can figure it out by playing against it enough times but it takes SOOO much longer. Currently you are trying to play how a new player is. They just want to get the hang of their champ first before trying anything new. If you are new, then you dont have much weight in the conversation because all you are doing is spewing what other people say while having no experience to back it up. If you are not new, then you have a mentality that needs a major change. You will end up dropping to bronze if you are not already there, simply because you will not try anything new at all even for a few games.
> [{quoted}](name=Wolfcub2000,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T02:18:40.018+0000) > > There is a reason ADC is now called Bottom. There is a reason why people try out things that are not normally a thing. > > If you are smart about it, you can annoy laners really easy... all because people have your mindset. > > If you do not know how to play against something, then try it for a few games. See how other people deal with it, see the strengths and weaknesses that you could exploit that comes from playing a champ. Sure you can figure it out by playing against it enough times but it takes SOOO much longer. > > Currently you are trying to play how a new player is. They just want to get the hang of their champ first before trying anything new. If you are new, then you dont have much weight in the conversation because all you are doing is spewing what other people say while having no experience to back it up. > > If you are not new, then you have a mentality that needs a major change. You will end up dropping to bronze if you are not already there, simply because you will not try anything new at all even for a few games. It's not about getting the fucking hang of a champion or whatever else, how many times will I have to repeat this. It isn't a matter of what I want in my lane, it's a matter of how the game is designed. I gave you two examples of how it ruined the game and I can give u more. After hte assassin rework a bunch of assassins, abusing the then Grasp of the undying used degenerate off-tank builds and they ruined hte game. Remember Tank ekko? Tank Fizz? yeah, all these champions got into top lane when they weren't meant to fucking be there and they CRUSHED the lane. It wasn't a god damned matter of what I wanted, it was the matter of them being fucking broken. VIKTOR IS BROKEN TOP BECAUSE HE IS NOT DESIGEND TO BE TOP. Ffs dude, how many times do I have to tell you, he shouldn't exist top. And trust me, he probably won't for long. Ekko top died, talon top died, fizz top died, the assassins top lane fad died because it wasn't meant to exist in the first place. Now the new fad is mages and I can't wait for them to wipe it out as well. BUt until then, I'll keep shouting out that Viktor, Cassio and whatever else top shouldn't exist. And if they're going to exist top, riot needs to fix them so it's god damned possible to play against them.
drash79 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T01:53:02.249+0000) > > Everything u just said is just fucking wrong. No, I am not the bully in this situation, and trust me, I fucking try to be. I try to murder top lane viktor players every chance I god damned get. > > Viktors Q, level one, if u include the auto, deals 110 dmg. Sure, the cooldown is 8 secondes long, but in top lane that's pretty standard. > > Now, lets look at the items. Yes, his hexcore costs 1150 gold. A phage costs 1250. Shut the fuck up. > > Iceborn gauntlet gives cd so he can spam his already low cd spells even more, gives him slows to kite, as if he needed it with his forcefield and q speed up (WHICH BTW COUNTERS THE MOVESPEED PHAGE GIVES U), armor to lower your dmg and the on-hit effect is super easy to use with his q. > > Also, it doesn't cost any more than BLack cleaver and it costs less than Triforce, so how the fuck is he the one dependent on gold? > > No, I don't beat him with half an offensive item. Again, it goes like this: He q's you, u jump him. He forcefields and either u're stunned or u run away. Then he q's you again and e's you. You lost the trade. The end. And that's just a fact. He out damages top laners and his forcefield counters any engage, unless you're like Fiora or Irelia, but those are exceptions, not the norm. > > And how do u expect me to shove in when he's poking me? And why would he have any trouble farming when he's the one shoving me out of lane? THis isn't mid lane, Viktor isn't weak early game top, he's just not. Its no use talking to him, guys he's gonna full hashinshin. Everything is op in he's b5 eyes
> [{quoted}](name=drash79,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T01:58:50.799+0000) > > Its no use talking to him, guys he's gonna full hashinshin. > Everything is op in he's b5 eyes I literally said in a previous comment that I don't have a problem with Jayce, Pantheon, Kennen, Vlad, Gnar or any other ranged top, other than Cassio and Viktor becuase they are op. How come, when I bring you legitimate evidence, you just throw it away? I've written like three massive comments explaining the god damned history of riots balancing of top lane since like two years ago, explaining why champions who are designed for a particular role or lane shouldn't play another. Ekko tank top wasn't god damned healthy, Ezreal jungle wasn't god damned healthy for the game and Tank Viktor top isn't god damned healthy either, u mongoloid.
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T01:20:52.510+0000) > > Again, before u fucking say it, I'm not crying Are you sure, because it sure sounds like you're just crying. He is comically weak early on. Any champion that is trying to scale on mana is going to take a painfully long time to come online. Even farming with him is difficult AND HE NEEDS GOLD. His build doen't even work if he doesn't upgrade his Q {{item:3196}} 1150 gold. Then he is relying on mana {{item:3070}} 850g and time 750 stacks, and more mana {{item:3025}} 2700g , and more gold {{item:3003}} 2350g If you get half of an offensive item you are going to beat him. If your jungler ganks and he tries to fight, you're going to beat him. He simply CAN NOT trade with you. Fight him and zone him and he is going to suffer. Shove a big wave under the tower and call your jungler to dive on him and he will suffer. He must run away OR HE DIES. You're the bully, not him. If you are letting him farm, you are shooting yourself in the foot.
> [{quoted}](name=Elite4Runner,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T01:38:01.892+0000) > > Are you sure, because it sure sounds like you're just crying. > > He is comically weak early on. Any champion that is trying to scale on mana is going to take a painfully long time to come online. Even farming with him is difficult AND HE NEEDS GOLD. His build doen't even work if he doesn't upgrade his Q {{item:3196}} 1150 gold. Then he is relying on mana {{item:3070}} 850g and time 750 stacks, and more mana {{item:3025}} 2700g , and more gold {{item:3003}} 2350g > > If you get half of an offensive item you are going to beat him. > > If your jungler ganks and he tries to fight, you're going to beat him. > > He simply CAN NOT trade with you. Fight him and zone him and he is going to suffer. > > Shove a big wave under the tower and call your jungler to dive on him and he will suffer. > > He must run away OR HE DIES. > > You're the bully, not him. > > If you are letting him farm, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Everything u just said is just fucking wrong. No, I am not the bully in this situation, and trust me, I fucking try to be. I try to murder top lane viktor players every chance I god damned get. Viktors Q, level one, if u include the auto, deals 110 dmg. Sure, the cooldown is 8 secondes long, but in top lane that's pretty standard. Now, lets look at the items. Yes, his hexcore costs 1150 gold. A phage costs 1250. Shut the fuck up. Iceborn gauntlet gives cd so he can spam his already low cd spells even more, gives him slows to kite, as if he needed it with his forcefield and q speed up (WHICH BTW COUNTERS THE MOVESPEED PHAGE GIVES U), armor to lower your dmg and the on-hit effect is super easy to use with his q. Also, it doesn't cost any more than BLack cleaver and it costs less than Triforce, so how the fuck is he the one dependent on gold? No, I don't beat him with half an offensive item. Again, it goes like this: He q's you, u jump him. He forcefields and either u're stunned or u run away. Then he q's you again and e's you. You lost the trade. The end. And that's just a fact. He out damages top laners and his forcefield counters any engage, unless you're like Fiora or Irelia, but those are exceptions, not the norm. And how do u expect me to shove in when he's poking me? And why would he have any trouble farming when he's the one shoving me out of lane? THis isn't mid lane, Viktor isn't weak early game top, he's just not.
: With Sion, Irelia, Leesin, and a few others moving mid lane, you did not expect someone to be playing a commonly played mid in top? Heres some other champions that i have played top and that others play top that is not conventional tops: 1) Vayne (i dont, but she is a very common pick vs champions like cho and sion) 2) Kaisa (same as vayne) 3) Quinn 4) Lulu 5) Cassiopia (one that i play top from time to time) 6) Tristana (i beat up an aatrox with her, lost because the Zed came top to deal with me instead) 7) Zilean (done a few times, annoyed many enemies) The list goes on and on. BUT THEY ARE NOT TOP LANERS SO I WANT THEM OUT OF MY LANE! <== your arguement. It is because of people like you that people play Viktor top for example. And why Mordekaiser was bott, Yasuo adc. Irelia mid, Sion mid, Zilean mid, Ezreal jung, Twitch jung, Graves went jung, but can top. Etc etc etc etc. There are so many examples of things that are done and that work well for the simple fact that people are so dense that they think they dont have to learn what another champ does in lane because "well ill never have to deal with it so i dont care". Then when they fight it they get stomped. Go figure! Toootally unable to be seen coming! Not at all! EDIT: btw, i stomped viktor top with Blitzcrank with PTA top. You can settle down with "that is so op!" Stuff, unless you are going to say blitz top is even more op.
> [{quoted}](name=Wolfcub2000,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-27T01:25:00.568+0000) > > With Sion, Irelia, Leesin, and a few others moving mid lane, you did not expect someone to be playing a commonly played mid in top? > > Heres some other champions that i have played top and that others play top that is not conventional tops: > > 1) Vayne (i dont, but she is a very common pick vs champions like cho and sion) > 2) Kaisa (same as vayne) > 3) Quinn > 4) Lulu > 5) Cassiopia (one that i play top from time to time) > 6) Tristana (i beat up an aatrox with her, lost because the Zed came top to deal with me instead) > 7) Zilean (done a few times, annoyed many enemies) > > The list goes on and on. > > BUT THEY ARE NOT TOP LANERS SO I WANT THEM OUT OF MY LANE! &lt;== your arguement. > > It is because of people like you that people play Viktor top for example. And why Mordekaiser was bott, Yasuo adc. Irelia mid, Sion mid, Zilean mid, Ezreal jung, Twitch jung, Graves went jung, but can top. Etc etc etc etc. There are so many examples of things that are done and that work well for the simple fact that people are so dense that they think they dont have to learn what another champ does in lane because &quot;well ill never have to deal with it so i dont care&quot;. > > Then when they fight it they get stomped. Go figure! Toootally unable to be seen coming! Not at all! Just because something is possible doesn't mean it should exist. The game right now, for better or for worse, is designed for certain champions to be in certain positions. Let me give an example to you to show why champions like Viktor existing in top lane just doesn't work. A few years ago, don't remember exactly when but it was just when Grasp was released, everybody played shit like Tank ekko with it. Top lane became the most boring farmfest ever, and in response, Riot gutted the sustain in top. Hp regen of like half the champions have over time been nerfed. It was because of this that they reworked nerfed dorans shield, which lead to it then becoming reworked later, and why they nerfed the hp regen on corrupting pot and increased the mana regen. They wanted melee people to actually fight top, cuz that's what's fun about the role. And this was a smart move actually. Now, of course, this lead to ranged top laners becoming really strong, because sustain was down so much that they had a much easier time poking people down. The extra mana and dmg didn't matter, because they just forced bruisers and fighters out of lane because any fighting could occur. In response to this, Riot nerfed a lot of ranged top laners. Gnar's jump has a 22 sec cd, Vladimirs pool has like a 28 sec cd. Again, these are just a few examples of how they did it. Now, it worked. How well it worked is arguable, but it did work. Bruisers have managed to survive the lane thanks to these admittedly small favors they've earned from Riot. But, this created a very fragile balance. The bruiser vs ranged top lane match up has always been based either the ranged champion having really long mobility cooldowns that allow the bruiser, when played correctly, to keep up the pressure and win the lane, or have a really shitty late game, as with Jayce for example, so that bruisers can at least hold on and have a chance later. Viktor breaks this balance completely. And so does Cassio, btw. Viktor simply isn't designed to be top. Jax's stats, cooldowns, damage numbers and all the rest isn't meant to fight Viktor, he's meant to fight darius and to an extant Jayce. And Viktors numbers, stats and cooldowns aren't meant to be used on JAx early, they're meant ot be used on Syndra, Taliyah and whatever else. In mid lane, where everybody has a long ranged cc ability, his forcefield isn't that bad. In top lane, pretty much nobody has that and his forcefield is insane. In mid lane, everybody has some form of ranged poke, so it's okay for a mid laner to have really strong poke, because everybody else has. Nobody in top lane, except for like Jayce, has super strong poke in top lane. In mid lane, everybody has burst, so it's okay for him to have decent burst because everybody else has decent burst. In top lane, pretty much all dmg is sustained damage and bruisers don't have the stats to survive his burst, making it insane. See the problem? See why it breaks the game when champions who aren't designed for top go top? The same goes for all other roles btw. REmember Ezreal jungle, how he broke the game because he wasn't meant to go jungle so they nerfed him super fast? Remember when Graves jungle was first becomming a thing, when he broke the game cuz his numbers were designed for fighting champions, not monsters and how they had to nerf the fuck out of him to the point where he's unplayable anywhere other than jungle?
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T00:50:12.735+0000) > > I have no intention of ever playing Viktor. I&#x27;m a top lane player, not a mid lane player. > > Also, your logic is really bad. Using it, a adc player could never, ever say that a jungler is op, or that an assassin is op, or that tank is op or whatever else. Vice versa, a jungler could never ever say that an adc champ is op using your logic, which is just dumb. I didn&#x27;t play mid or Zoe, but it was still pretty clear to me that she was broken cuz, you know, I got hit by her thousand dmg q from across a whole lane that&#x27;s on like an 7 sec cd. > > Yes, Viktor is op. His damage is way too high, it&#x27;s impossible for a melee top laner to properly punish him unless you&#x27;re playing something like Akali or Irelia, which are op champs in of themselves. So you just got beat by him. I see, yeah that makes sense. To be fair, I knew that when I asked. You see, the problem with YOUR LOGIC is that he IS being played in the top lane. So like it or not, he's someone you're going to need to deal with until Riot decides to do something ... IF they decide to do something. So you can either cry about how unfair it is, or you could actually learn from the situation and adapt to it. Whenever you are playing against a champion that counters you, it is usually wise to play that champion to figure out their weaknesses. It also helps to get a better understanding of how long it takes for them to scale,.. which in Viktor's case, is considerable. Or again, just complain about it and hope that Riot will make it all better for you...
> [{quoted}](name=Elite4Runner,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T01:01:46.008+0000) > > So you just got beat by him. I see, yeah that makes sense. To be fair, I knew that when I asked. > > You see, the problem with YOUR LOGIC is that he IS being played in the top lane. So like it or not, he&#x27;s someone you&#x27;re going to need to deal with until Riot decides to do something ... IF they decide to do something. So you can either cry about how unfair it is, or you could actually learn from the situation and adapt to it. > > Whenever you are playing against a champion that counters you, it is usually wise to play that champion to figure out their weaknesses. It also helps to get a better understanding of how long it takes for them to scale,.. which in Viktor&#x27;s case, is considerable. > > Or again, just complain about it and hope that Riot will make it all better for you... "Adapt and stop crying" is not an excuse for something being op. How hte fuck can u even think like that? I don't complain about Gnar, Kennen, Jayce, Pantheon or all the other super annoying ranged top laners because they're at least somewhat balanced. I'm complaining about Viktor cuz he's fucking op. Get it? OP. He's not just annoying, he's fucking OP. He outtrades every top laner, he outpokes every top laner, he outscales every fucking top laner. Viktor isn't supposed to be in top lane. He's just not. And when he somehow makes his way into the lane, he breaks it. Jax isn't built to fight Viktor level 1-9, he's build to fight Garen and Fiora. Riot has been really careful about making ranged top laners. Gnar's jump has a 22 sec cd, Vlad's has a 24 second cd and both of them lose trades if the bruiser can get on them. Kennen's damage isn't all that high really and most of his poke comes from a singletarget skillshot that u can just hide behind minions to avoid. Jayce and Pantheon scales like shit, making up for their obscene early game. Viktor's forcefield has around the same cd as the average bruisers gap closer. His q shielding and dmg lets him outrade and since his q is a point and click and his e passes through minions, his poke cna't really be played around. And he scales really well. Better htan most fighters. Tell me waht point of this is fair. Again, before u fucking say it, I'm not crying because he's annoying and don't u dare fucking tell me to adapt. I have adapted to tanks, ranged champions and all the rest despite how annoying it all is, but I draw the god damned line here. I can not be expected to deal with osmething so blatantly over powered, unfair and just simply unfun to play against.
: So... have you ever actually played it, ... or did you just get beat by it?
> [{quoted}](name=Elite4Runner,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=hX2iTKEx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-27T00:42:21.025+0000) > > So... have you ever actually played it, ... or did you just get beat by it? I have no intention of ever playing Viktor. I'm a top lane player, not a mid lane player. Also, your logic is really bad. Using it, a adc player could never, ever say that a jungler is op, or that an assassin is op, or that tank is op or whatever else. Vice versa, a jungler could never ever say that an adc champ is op using your logic, which is just dumb. I didn't play mid or Zoe, but it was still pretty clear to me that she was broken cuz, you know, I got hit by her thousand dmg q from across a whole lane that's on like an 7 sec cd. Yes, Viktor is op. His damage is way too high, it's impossible for a melee top laner to properly punish him unless you're playing something like Akali or Irelia, which are op champs in of themselves.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cdZspPn1,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-09-06T21:28:58.828+0000) > > prove it Play the game. A single misstep or a single failed doge will kill you even when you're playing a bruiser or off-tank. Beyond just champions stats, look at the items. The offensive options are massive and super effective - Like ludens echo, liandrys, rabadons and spellbinder -, meanwhile the defensive options are limited and not that effective. In earlier seasons, when banshees veil gave just tank stats, a lot of carries would use it, giving them solid defense but not making them so insanely dmg heavy. Now though, every carry is basically a glass cannon. Even the few defensive options that there are give an equal or larger amount of offensive stats than defensive stats. Even for off-tanks and bruisers, this is a problem. The defensive stats of items like steraks, bc and titanic are lesser than their offensive stats. They're like 30%defense, 70% offense, and there are no 70% defense options. This makes it so that even the tanker characters are also really squishy but also deal a fuck ton of dmg.
> [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cdZspPn1,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-09-06T21:37:41.983+0000) > > Play the game. A single misstep or a single failed doge will kill you even when you&#x27;re playing a bruiser or off-tank. Beyond just champions stats, look at the items. The offensive options are massive and super effective - Like ludens echo, liandrys, rabadons and spellbinder, trinity, I.E, duskblade, etc -, meanwhile the defensive options are limited and not that effective. In earlier seasons, when banshees veil gave just tank stats, a lot of carries would use it, giving them solid defense but not making them so insanely dmg heavy. Now though, every carry is basically a glass cannon. Even the few defensive options that there are give an equal or larger amount of offensive stats than defensive stats. > > Even for off-tanks and bruisers, this is a problem. The defensive stats of items like steraks, bc and titanic are lesser than their offensive stats. They&#x27;re like 30%defense, 70% offense, and there are no 70% defense options. This makes it so that even the tanker characters are also really squishy but also deal a fuck ton of dmg.
Moody P (NA)
: prove it
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cdZspPn1,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-09-06T21:28:58.828+0000) > > prove it Play the game. A single misstep or a single failed doge will kill you even when you're playing a bruiser or off-tank. Beyond just champions stats, look at the items. The offensive options are massive and super effective - Like ludens echo, liandrys, rabadons and spellbinder -, meanwhile the defensive options are limited and not that effective. In earlier seasons, when banshees veil gave just tank stats, a lot of carries would use it, giving them solid defense but not making them so insanely dmg heavy. Now though, every carry is basically a glass cannon. Even the few defensive options that there are give an equal or larger amount of offensive stats than defensive stats. Even for off-tanks and bruisers, this is a problem. The defensive stats of items like steraks, bc and titanic are lesser than their offensive stats. They're like 30%defense, 70% offense, and there are no 70% defense options. This makes it so that even the tanker characters are also really squishy but also deal a fuck ton of dmg.
Rioter Comments
: I'm torn on this argument. One the one hand you make a decent point that some champs are going to have a *very* hard time dodging. On the other hand, it's equally hard to dodge a lot of things. That by itself isn't a strong indictment of his champ design. There are plenty of champs where the proper counterplay is "don't be in range of xyz," and yeah, it feels shitty, but that's just how it is. Pretty hard to dodge Swain E or Taric E if they are close enough to land it, too. Can't dodge Alistar W-Q knock up without a dash, either. The point about people not liking him is just wrong. I, personally, have started playing Aatrox since the rework because I think the kit is sick. It didn't make the mains happy, sure, but when are all the mains going to be happy about a release? Some people are always going to be upset when a champ gets reworked, so it's never going to be a reason *not* to rework a champ. Best argument that you've got here is that he's too strong early and too weak late. That might be true, and might need more than just numbers changes. Best defense would be that it's not easy to figure out *how* true that is before release. You aren't wrong about the facts, but it's not helpful to blame Riot for that problem, in particular.
> [{quoted}](name=KnightsKemplar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-09T14:25:34.868+0000) > > I&#x27;m torn on this argument. > > One the one hand you make a decent point that some champs are going to have a *very* hard time dodging. On the other hand, it&#x27;s equally hard to dodge a lot of things. That by itself isn&#x27;t a strong indictment of his champ design. There are plenty of champs where the proper counterplay is &quot;don&#x27;t be in range of xyz,&quot; and yeah, it feels shitty, but that&#x27;s just how it is. Pretty hard to dodge Swain E or Taric E if they are close enough to land it, too. Can&#x27;t dodge Alistar W-Q knock up without a dash, either. > > The point about people not liking him is just wrong. I, personally, have started playing Aatrox since the rework because I think the kit is sick. It didn&#x27;t make the mains happy, sure, but when are all the mains going to be happy about a release? Some people are always going to be upset when a champ gets reworked, so it&#x27;s never going to be a reason *not* to rework a champ. > > Best argument that you&#x27;ve got here is that he&#x27;s too strong early and too weak late. That might be true, and might need more than just numbers changes. Best defense would be that it&#x27;s not easy to figure out *how* true that is before release. You aren&#x27;t wrong about the facts, but it&#x27;s not helpful to blame Riot for that problem, in particular. It's probably not fair to blame riot. I have no idea how easy/hard it is to predict how strong champions can be. But, I won't really give up on taht first point, because it's beyond that. Swain's and Taric's stuns are very hard to dodge, yes, but they're still Dodgeble, ya know? Idk if u read my responses to another guy, but Aatrox's q and E feels like if Darius had Riven's e. If darius had a dash he would literally never miss his q ever again, or if taric had a dash he owuld never miss his stun, it would be complete bullshit to play against. Now, add to that taht Aatrox has double the range on his q and three tries to hit it, and you have a real problem. moreover, the difference between Alistar and Aatrox is that alistar is prob not gonna solo kill u.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T13:57:01.602+0000) > > His q range is longer than my pull range, even if he dashes in. Depends where he hits you, on the tip yeah, anywhere on the inside, same range. >Moreover, taht doesn&#x27;t really matter, because Aatrox still outdamages Darius with his second and third q. More damage based off what?
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T14:02:09.480+0000) > > Depends where he hits you, on the tip yeah, anywhere on the inside, same range. > > More damage based off what? THe point is that his e allows him to always hit with the tip. If Darius had a similiar dash, he would pretty much always hit his Q. Also, he outdamages just because... He outdamages. It's enough to just hit 2/3 q's and his passive, and darius is at like 1/3 hp if they're both around level 6.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T13:40:20.669+0000) > > Because there is no opening for outplay on Darius&#x27;s side. > > Riven can dodge Darius&#x27;s q. Even if the Darius plays perfectly, Riven can dodge his q out of her own skill. Same for Vladimir, since he can Dodge Irelias stun and Camille&#x27;s hookshot. Darius, as i&#x27;ve already explained, can not dodge Aatrox&#x27;s q. It is completely On Aatrox to fuck up, not on Darius to outplay You could use the opportunity when they are dashing in to pull them and disrupt the knock up of their second Q?
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T13:54:42.944+0000) > > You could use the opportunity when they are dashing in to pull them and disrupt the knock up of their second Q? His q range is longer than my pull range, even if he dashes in. Moreover, taht doesn't really matter, because Aatrox still outdamages Darius with his second and third q.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-09T13:31:57.451+0000) > > I know it isn&#x27;t literally a flash, that&#x27;s not hte point. > > And also, it is. Generally, Darius coutners Riven, but riven can still wreck Darius if she plays well. Generally Camille or Irelia is good vs Vladimir, but Vladimir can still win vs them. Generally Garen coutners JAx, but jax can still win. But that can't happen against Darius against Aatrox because reasons right?
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T13:35:53.049+0000) > > But that can&#x27;t happen against Darius against Aatrox because reasons right? Because there is no opening for outplay on Darius's side. Riven can dodge Darius's q. Even if the Darius plays perfectly, Riven can dodge his q out of her own skill. Same for Vladimir, since he can Dodge Irelias stun and Camille's hookshot. Darius, as i've already explained, can not dodge Aatrox's q. It is completely On Aatrox to fuck up, not on Darius to outplay
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T13:21:47.368+0000) > > The problem is that Aatrox doesn&#x27;t have any clear openings that I can exploit. Aatrox&#x27;s Q is like Darius&#x27;s Q, If darius had a free flash he could use to reposition himself. If Darius could do that, playing against him would be impossible, because there&#x27;d be no way to dodge it. Right now, u can outplay a Darius to dodge his Q, i do it quite often. But u can&#x27;t do taht with Aatrox, cuz he has a free flash he can use every time he q&#x27;s, or a free dash, rather. It isn't a flash, it is a very short range dash. > Moreover, picks should not decide who wins the laning phase. That&#x27;s not a skill check, he didn&#x27;t outplay me, he just got to pick after me in pick ban phase. That literally isn't possible and hasn't been possible in any game with a roster of characters that have any variety in their play.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-09T13:24:27.992+0000) > > It isn&#x27;t a flash, it is a very short range dash. > > That literally isn&#x27;t possible and hasn&#x27;t been possible in any game with a roster of characters that have any variety in their play. I know it isn't literally a flash, that's not hte point. And also, it is. Generally, Darius coutners Riven, but riven can still wreck Darius if she plays well. Generally Camille or Irelia is good vs Vladimir, but Vladimir can still win vs them. Generally Garen coutners JAx, but jax can still win.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T12:57:18.527+0000) > > It is almost like some champions naturally beat others because of how kits work. > > https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/files/Thinking_Face_Emoji.png?9898922749706957214 > > And this logic doesn&#x27;t apply when Darius is playing against say a Nasus...why? The problem is that Aatrox doesn't have any clear openings that I can exploit. Aatrox's Q is like Darius's Q, If darius had a free flash he could use to reposition himself. If Darius could do that, playing against him would be impossible, because there'd be no way to dodge it. Right now, u can outplay a Darius to dodge his Q, i do it quite often. But u can't do taht with Aatrox, cuz he has a free flash he can use every time he q's, or a free dash, rather. Moreover, picks should not decide who wins the laning phase. That's not a skill check, he didn't outplay me, he just got to pick after me in pick ban phase.
> [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T13:21:47.368+0000) > > The problem is that Aatrox doesn&#x27;t have any clear openings that I can exploit. Aatrox&#x27;s Q is like Darius&#x27;s Q, If darius had a free flash he could use to reposition himself and ensure that it will hit. He could even do it at the last literal second of the spell, not even giving the opoonent even a milisecond to react. If Darius could do that, playing against him would be impossible, because there&#x27;d be no way to dodge it. Right now, u can outplay a Darius to dodge his Q, i do it quite often. But u can&#x27;t do taht with Aatrox, cuz he has a free flash he can use every time he q&#x27;s, or a free dash, rather. > > Moreover, picks should not decide who wins the laning phase. That&#x27;s not a skill check, he didn&#x27;t outplay me, he just got to pick after me in pick ban phase.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T12:52:03.890+0000) > > No, because that makes it so that Aatrox is the one that has to misplay. Again, if The Aatrox never misplays, and never gets baited to miss a Q, then what can I as a Darius do? It is almost like some champions naturally beat others because of how kits work. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/files/Thinking_Face_Emoji.png?9898922749706957214 > Darius could be a literal god at the game, but as Long as Aatrox doesn&#x27;t display himself, Darius will never win because of how Aatrox&#x27;s kit works. And this logic doesn't apply when Darius is playing against say a Nasus...why?
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T12:57:18.527+0000) > > It is almost like some champions naturally beat others because of how kits work. > > https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/files/Thinking_Face_Emoji.png?9898922749706957214 > > And this logic doesn&#x27;t apply when Darius is playing against say a Nasus...why? The problem is that Aatrox doesn't have any clear openings that I can exploit. Aatrox's Q is like Darius's Q, If darius had a free flash he could use to reposition himself. If Darius could do that, playing against him would be impossible, because there'd be no way to dodge it. Right now, u can outplay a Darius to dodge his Q, i do it quite often. But u can't do taht with Aatrox, cuz he has a free flash he can use every time he q's, or a free dash, rather. Moreover, picks should not decide who wins the laning phase. That's not a skill check, he didn't outplay me, he just got to pick after me in pick ban phase.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T11:08:24.252+0000) > > In what way are they not those things? Its uninteractive because it&#x27;s impossible to dodge without a dash of your own. Literally impossible, like Darius can not dodge Aatrox&#x27;s q&#x27;s if Aatrox has his e up. And, its unfair that I lose because of my pick, and it&#x27;s unfun to lose, not because you got outskilled, but because of a broken design. You can bait it out, or space it, also an option. Ever think Aatrox might just be a counter to Darius?
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-09T11:18:17.880+0000) > > You can bait it out, or space it, also an option. Ever think Aatrox might just be a counter to Darius? No, because that makes it so that Aatrox is the one that has to misplay. Again, if The Aatrox never misplays, and never gets baited to miss a Q, then waht can I as a Darius do? Champions like that, where it is on the player to misplay, not the opponent to outplay, are fundamentely broken. Riven was like that for a while, and she broke top lane. Azir was like that for a while, and he broke midlane, because it didn't matter how good u were, you just could not outplay them. Darius could be a literal god at the game, but as Long as Aatrox doesn't display himself, Darius will never win because of how Aatrox's kit works.
Jamaree (NA)
: I don't think yo > [{quoted}](name=Godking Yuuumie,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-08-09T11:00:30.614+0000) > > Honestly, the only problem is his q and e, because they&amp;#039;re just unfun, unfair and interactive. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/34/03/cf3403a44afac001803b4cb6732dea98.gif
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LA1h9yAt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-09T11:02:27.303+0000) > > I don&#x27;t think yo > > https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/34/03/cf3403a44afac001803b4cb6732dea98.gif In what way are they not those things? Its uninteractive because it's impossible to dodge without a dash of your own. Literally impossible, like Darius can not dodge Aatrox's q's if Aatrox has his e up. And, its unfair that I lose because of my pick, and it's unfun to lose, not because you got outskilled, but because of a broken design.
Rioter Comments
: I assume you're mad about the game where the Trynd beat you by 7000 gold Here's the thing: Tyrndamere isn't all that great. He's very strong at split pushing and can 1v1 well, but that is all he can do. He loses team fights easy since CC can stop him from making the most of his unkillable ul and allow squishies to run away from face-stabbing range. His big strength is that he's not supposed to be fought all alone, like you did with Darius, who falls off late game. If you kept challenging Tryndamere in a 1v1 fight that many times and expected to win, you are Einstein's definition of insane.
> [{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Ov1x2L5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-03T01:31:49.687+0000) > > I assume you&#x27;re mad about the game where the Trynd beat you by 7000 gold > > Here&#x27;s the thing: Tyrndamere isn&#x27;t all that great. He&#x27;s very strong at split pushing and can 1v1 well, but that is all he can do. He loses team fights easy since CC can stop him from making the most of his unkillable ul and allow squishies to run away from face-stabbing range. His big strength is that he&#x27;s not supposed to be fought all alone, like you did with Darius, who falls off late game. > > If you kept challenging Tryndamere in a 1v1 fight that many times and expected to win, you are Einstein&#x27;s definition of insane. I didn't say he's good, I said he has a shitty design. There's a distinction. Yes, that game made me write this post, because it finally pushed me over the edge. I've hated Tryndamere for two years now, and playing against taht degenerate ap Trynda finally made me want to complain about it. Look, I know Trynda has plenty of weaknesses, and that game was actually were close. We lost it duo to a macro mistake, where my team didn't want to back while trynda destroyed our base. I'm not saying he's op or even that strong. I'm saying he's poorly designed and frustrating.
Rioter Comments
xRoyalty (EUW)
: I would say his laning phase is broken, but rn thats the only thing going for him seeing as he basically REVERSE SCALES and gets somewhat useless. I havent really had a chance to fullbuild or get near to that as games appear to be ending quite early, possibly due to him getting weaker around midgame and not being able to do much with him. earlygame is really fun though but after the first tower getting destroyed you will feel the drop in power.
> [{quoted}](name=xRoyalty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9bAZpwlJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-15T23:18:02.486+0000) > > I would say his laning phase is broken, but rn thats the only thing going for him seeing as he basically REVERSE SCALES and gets somewhat useless. I havent really had a chance to fullbuild or get near to that as games appear to be ending quite early, possibly due to him getting weaker around midgame and not being able to do much with him. earlygame is really fun though but after the first tower getting destroyed you will feel the drop in power. I mean, that's pretty shitty design tho, right? It means he's really unfun to play against because basically doing nothing but getting killed for 10-15 min is really unfun for the opponent and then being useless for the rest 10-20 minutes of the game is really unfun for the aatrox. Idk, I think his rework is actually pretty poorly designed. He does not feel like a fun and healthy champion.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: When the enemies say a champ is op in all chat
Well, sometimes a champion genuinly is op/broken/frustrating.
: Can we fix toxic Akali now?
The problem with {{champion:84}} is that there is no chance to mechanically outplay her. There are no skillshots to dodge, there are no timings to play around, as with vladimir q. There are no special circumstances she needs to hit to use multiple dashes, as with Diana ulti. There is no way to reveal her stealth, there is no way to stun her and wait out her q duration as the duration is longer than the cooldown. She is one of the few absolutely binary champions in the game, where if she's stronger she's going to kill you and there is almost nothing you can do about it but if you're stronger you're gonna kill her and there is almost nothing you can do about it.
I FK AFK (NA)
: Any recommend easy top lane champ?
All these people are dumb, lol. If you have problems farming with champions under tower you don't pick tanks, {{champion:8}} or {{champion:50}}, since those have the absolute hardest time farmin under tower. Moreover, I believe you should play champions that are good at things you're not good at, as to learn to do those things. {{champion:164}} Low mana costs, good early, good mid, good late, good at punishing mistakes but if you fall behind or go even she is still useful. THE BEST fighter in the game. She will teach you all about punishing opponents mistakes, backline diving and when to split/teamfight {{champion:58}} Amazing kill pressure, amazing early, amazing mid, poor late. Rene will teach you all about learning when to fight in top and how to snowball the lane. {{champion:59}} Jarvan is one of the most flexible top lane champions in the game, as he can go full lethality assassin, full tank or anything inbetween. He'll teach you about adapting to the game and when to engage.
Sujiren (EUW)
: Small quality of life change/ buff to Darius
2 seconds is waaaaay to long of a duration. Make it last just one second instead but up the damage reduction, because what would happen if it was too long is that the ranged guy tries to wait out the duration, as dealing that much reduced damage would lose him the fight but then when it finally ends Darius is about to kill you anyways. If you lower the duration but increase the precentage what happens it taht it rewards good darius players because they can time the short duration better to shut down the opponents while better punishing bad darius players for using it at bad times.
Teslyn (NA)
: Would adding a buff to minons fix turrets
The idea itself is sound, but what would happen is that turtling champions like {{champion:67}} {{champion:41}} would become super meta and the game would slow down conciderbly. Depending on just how strong the buff is, we could go to a farm for 20 min under tower meta with champions like {{champion:69}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:102}} where the game then goes into 40 min stall fests were people hit eachother with sacks of gold.
Rioter Comments
Glîtchy (NA)
: Well he has been an insanely good pick for awhile now
Engelin (NA)
: If your team refuses to allow you to split push, play by their rules. I've had easily-won games turn into struggles because my team didn't want to play around my split push, but since _I_ played around _them_ instead, we still won. ######tl;dr btw
> [{quoted}](name=Engelin,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=3Rsunsw4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-08T18:11:21.333+0000) > > If you team refuses to allow you to split push, play by their rules. > > I&#x27;ve had easily-won games turn into struggles because my team didn&#x27;t want to play around my split push, but since _I_ played around _them_ instead, we still won. > > ######tl;dr btw It wasn't meant as a salt fest about stupid ppl not letting me splitpush, more just a basic guide to something I think a lot of ppl don't understand.
: Let's talk Top lane: Implications of the Grasp rework, fighters, and more
Idk why rito hates top lane but there's a sooooo many players offering solutions but they just don't seem to care. This would be fantastic but we also need more.
Rioter Comments
: Ha ha ha. Why should i take tp for bot lane?? I bet you blame the jungler just like everyone else when u get solo killed on lane. Dont act like your above anyone and be humble
> [{quoted}](name=Grimspeake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=m4d2GWVh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-06T17:09:25.871+0000) > > Ha ha ha. Why should i take tp for bot lane?? I bet you blame the jungler just like everyone else when u get solo killed on lane. Dont act like your above anyone and be humble I don't. I said quite literally that I don't expect any1 to gank for me so why would i blame my jungler?
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Godking Yuuumie

Level 125 (EUNE)
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