: But that means vel often HAS to rely on his team otherwise he dies, which is why his win rate goes up so high in high elo. I wouldn’t say he’s busted per se, strong? Ya, but if he was so busted nearly every elo would be hovering around 54% or higher. I do agree he needs a slight adjustment, and riot hasn’t been so great at managing their resources *cough* eternals. But they are trying to make a game that everyone enjoys. Kled has a pick/ban rate that goes up the higher you go in the ladder. “Why?” One may ask, and that’s because higher skill/more knowledgeable players are able to play around more in team fights, so they pick more teamfight oriented champions and/or comps. Is the game unbalanced? Oh fuck yeah dude. But that’s why we have metas. The meta changes based on patches. If we didn’t have patches to change things around, there wouldn’t be any new champions and the game would become stagnant.
You are right, but the point i was trying to make is that champions need to be designed to be pretty smooth ELO wise. And I'm not talking about skill needed to play the champion, but the dependencies the champion has on the team style. So if a champion has low winrate in low elo because is hard to master, it's fine, if it has a low winrate because it relies on high ELO teamplay than it's wrong
Rioter Comments
: The game has to go back to what made it work. Which was different champs doing different things for teams. Making macro an important part of the game would force gamers to learn it or be bad. But that worked bc LoL gameplay is fun and relatively easy. This would mean games (all else mostly being equal) revolving around counters and win conditions. With new kits too loaded it makes a lot of other champs simply not matter at high level play. Often now it is more risky to take a non-carry then a carry, because so many champs that can carry can also do a lot more. For example, in solo que Aatrox, Irelia, Sylas or Renekton who can all hard carry can also serve the purpose of hard engagers simply through winning lane. Other than carrying, engaging was usually the most potent weapon in the genre like a Blitz pull or Malphite R. Pulls are so strong of spells in mobas, that usually a champ that has one only gets that, bc pulls are risk free engages. Sylas has that and everything else in spades. But the main way to bring pro and soloq gameplay closer is to make macro important. The more you have to learn the game to be successful, the more you can balance for both. Then the really good players will not only have better mechanics, but also more awareness and creativity to take advantage of more situations. Which in tune makes it so there are more ways to be good, which means more ways to have fun. When champs individually do everything themselves, which is not how a 5v5 objective based should work, amazing players will be playing a different game then average ones. In pro-play the champs are actually utility carries to them, where they can do whatever a team needs in any game with certain picks {{champion:266}}. Others have so many tools they are just impossible to counter or kill, making a few new carries universally very safe if the player is skilled with kb&m. When macro is important, it is a more similar game for both, just the pros are better. Risk, reward dynamic has to be properly balanced back into the game too. Old Swain destroyed all assassins, and could be a bully but was not a carry so his win rate stayed consistent and he had a gameplay identity and a good reason to play him. If the only reason to play a champ now is he's cool, and maybe I can just win a 1v1 50/50 fight then most people will be turned off and quit. This genre and game are about creating 80/20 situations either through play or picks. If during laning Lissandra ults you and Rek'Sai gets behind you, you are dead. That is the game. Not going in and out of a cloud while having good sustain making you impossible to kill while you scale hard and fast, giving you a big reward and NO risk if you have the skill. Simply meaning kits need less in them. Whatever the champs still do, pro will do it better, but because they can not do everything it brings macro and risk back into play. Too much in kits means great players can do everything and become safe carries, while leaving most all other champs behind and destroying the macro play. The solution is to bring back a real early game which would require nerfing or changing Runes, then shelve/rework/revert/dumpster some champs whose kits are too loaded for this type of game, and introduce real carry dynamics beyond marksmen where getting a carry fed is an important part of the game for teams. The game is more fun if you are not forced to play one certain way. Tanks should be tanks, hard to kill bullies who can kill you early especially with help, harder to kill to late than non-tanks but not much dps and more about cc and making plays. No more class metas and start doing wider champ metas.
Totally agree with you. The high damage, high reflex gameplay is eroding the core of the game that slowly loses its grip top its very foundation, which is a strategy-oriented game
: Might be beating a dead horse here, but make PBE more of an actual game balancing tool, not “I’m gonna fuck around on a new champion with a build that will never be used in play” Apart from that there are champions that are meant for players with a high skill level ie: {{champion:157}} {{champion:246}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:67}} If you look at stats, I didn’t go through all of them but I looked at Akali, vel, and morde. Vel’koz hovers at a 51-54% iron-diamond and jumps to an astonishing 64% in master+ Maybe that’s because they just win more in master and up? I don’t know. But it’s obvious that some champions are better in other elos. They try their best to balance everything, obviously they can’t make it good for everyone and make everyone happy, because let’s be honest, people like to complain. I remember reading something on the boards a couple of years ago saying that the game was balanced around platinum, which doesn’t seem to be the case anymore. It’s hard to balance a game perfectly with so many playable champions with so many different abilities with SO many different players of varying skill.
Vel’koz is busted, he needs a small redesign. If the team is smart and protects him, he gets to be too powerful to do anything against unless your assassins are top-notch Same but in other direction with Yi. Meh champion if he doesn't get feed as he plays a dangerous high reward game. Something he is usually denied in high elo. In low ELO he just snowballs out of control. Again, he needs a little redesign. But for Riot, a small redesign means VGU and that takes way too long. They need better management
: I'm 100% fine with balancing for pro play. They are the best, therefore people will be forced to learn to play like them or gtfo. Common sense says the average player quality would rise. Hell. They should balance match making around Pro play so Irons play with Irons and Plats with Plats etc etc so I don't constantly get teammates that are a full tier below me.
I would agree with this statement if pro play would be a soloQ. But pro play is a team tournament. Something the game doesn't provide. SoloQ gameplay is so different than pro play to a point balancing in pro play is irelevant for the soloQ. So I prefer being able to use a champion than be at major handicap using it because of some league gameplay that I will never experience. If something is super busted in pro and meh in soloQ, than rework. Takes time and resources but it's the game they have created
Kai Guy (NA)
: Well then. Sounds like you want a mmr system with stat adjustment. Ever look at the publications for trueskill? Far as distribution goes. That's how you build team odds and move accounts at what speed you want for rate of change. Logistical has slightly different curves at the tail end but they wont be to dramatic in an Elo system. Fractions of a % for the majority. I got access to a bunch of formulas. You may want binomial distribution at the start.
It's not a true MMR system because you don't have a definitive player rating you matchmake around. Not, it's a matchmaking system so yeah they are similar i guess in scope. TrueSkill2 is interesting and could be an improvement to the current algorithm, but alas, is patented and I dont' think it will work that well with the league system.
Kai Guy (NA)
: To control player picks requires knowing their champion prior to building the lobby.
It was not about the player picks. Xerath was just an observation
: Jayce MID is in a terrible state now, and he is unplayable as lower skill champs do more damage
Jayce is fine. He makes a damn good ADC and also a decent top lanner. Just stop building lethality on him or Black Cleaver as I see Jayces usually do Crit is where Jayce shine now
Kai Guy (NA)
: Aight. So 0-1 scale is equal to 0-100. For folks who don't like decimal points. Honestly not remotely important. If some tells you your system cant work from your scale value. Its an arbitrary value so ignore any comments that call out your scale as a problem. What generates the values is whats important. I dont think a hard reset will help as you have no "challenger" to build The curve and using prior seasons would just make it mimic prior seasons. Assuming you put directional weight on win or lose. If you do a weight off w and l for direction your basicaly just asking for modfication to riots current mm system. As they do mmr by role and "abuse" ties the range for all roles tighter together. If you want weight on more then W/L I do not know a model to use besides AI for automation. Your system is weak if it can't see what stats are impactfull or just noise. Personally I am biased to put weight on wins loss cuz it cant be faked with ease. Stat padding is weak, hurts teams and fucking easy in a mobas. Holding skills for proper usage is correct playing Stunning a Kat r for example but raw stat as a the metrics reward mindless spam. I dont know how to make a non subjective system that can track this with out wins and losses as a core value. I might be in error on things at times and I will correct when it's proven. I have so far attempted to be clear when a system is mmr or elo so you dont feel like I am trying to trick you into admiting elo and mmr work. I would rather show you the logic behind them. The math that builds them and how to test them. Help you fill out your own system then compare and test the two. So for your curve. I can give you some models for building curves when I get home. Did you have a distribution in mind?
> I am biased to put weight on wins loss cuz it cant be faked with ease It's already weighted in win and lose, the system doesn't renounce that. You got the league system that creates the pool. You can increase the "weight" of the win-lose weight by decreasing the pool range from the start. Win-loss is not that relevant in current league as a matchmaking tool because the solo carry is limited unless a heavy smurf. So you could be great and loss a lot of games because of bad luck.Sure you will eventually climb but it will be a grind fest Current stat system is pretty decent. Also you need wins . If spamming stats give you win then good job. I have no distribution in mind
Pyrosan (NA)
: There's a 16 - 3 Draven and you think the 6/1 support Xerath was the issue..?
Definitely, he hardcarried draven bro. I was unable to get near creeps while he got a perfect farm without any problem because jungle never ganked despite constant pressure
Rioter Comments
Kai Guy (NA)
: Your not super clear on what the system looks like player end. Same as it currently is? So Iron to Challenge? Then are your using a distribution for 5 divisions that's hidden behind that system or not? that's the -2 thru +2 range you mentioned. Riots League system has 0 information on skill with out MMR. You want to change the distribution Model so I want to know what are you using for that. How much better does your system expect a -2 vs -1. -2 vs 0? Etc. MMR and Elo use their distribution model to build and set a value for this, when that value is wrong they adjust. What is defined as more skill vs less skilled by your system? If your unable to create a consistent value for this, a reliable expectation of skill for how often you expect player A to beat player B. How can it be used for MM? Subjective judgment is looking some one and going they did X Y and Z very well, that's 8/10 points! So that would be observing for context of each game by holding up a standard of how closely did some play to the correct move all game. The problem doing this is if you don't have the ability to watch and grade with the context of individual games subjective rating wont work well because 1500 damage on an adc in game could be a game winning result due to short game time compared to 2500 in game B which would be low due to say game time. Now you can try grading on a curve. Take average stats and individual stats to check for positive or negative gap. But average stats in league are gonna to skew and population and popularity will constantly be shifting your expectations. You also have a very real issue, not all champions need the same metrics. So you cant run it by just Role averages, how does some one with 0 CC or 0 healing generate those values? I hope its self evident why you'd have to account for champions individually. So if we get to the idea that winning = skill and who your playing = how hard it should be to win or lose? Thats Elo. Its not subjective. It does not care about gameplay, just the results of a game. Did you win or lose. Who are you playing. But you don't want to use that and you think it will not work? "Remove Elo/MMR." So my attitude is if that's what your asking for.... remove Elo/MMR then replace it with an Elo/MMR. Seems a bit pointless yea? How does your system generate its values? You provided some undefined values are saying that hey if you use this it will work. Why will it work? How are your systems values generated. If you cant provide WHY they work is there any reason to not treat it like a random guess on your end where you just pulled out some numbers because they looked good? What does your system do that's superior to the work of mathematicians and statisticians for a well established and peer reviewed system? Ways I know about and what uses them. Normal Distribution and WR? Elo. Verhulst population logistical distribution and WR? Elo. That was a 9/10 play? Subjective grading. Your X stats compared to the average Y and wins do not matter. Like Fantasy football I guess, Statistic grading. Your X stats compared to the average Y and direction of movement is decided by Wins or loss? Elo.
So, It's pretty clear there won't be a perfect system. But the current one is definitely not working. It hasn't worked for years, but when solo carry was more impactful and the games where less snowballing skill alone could save games which made teams less relevant than today. Now, people can see the flaws of the MMR system, especially in lower than diamond leagues, where the "population" is huge compared to the end of the "league" Now you question is how does the system generate the values, the system already gets those values https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=https://news-a.akamaihd.net/public/images/articles/2018/august/stats/Stats_Combat_EN.jpg Are those parameters absolute and clear? No, definitely. But they are the best you can get without AI. A further study from big data Riot gathers can reveal other parameters in the future. So why rely on them then? Because they are the league average, let's call them Skill Performance Indicators (SPI). What is the +2 and -2 div ... it's the player pool. Why this pool: - SPI don't work on the whole pool as a player in Bronze might have it easier to hit better SPI - Because if the MMR doesn't exists anymore then you need a player grading system, and that remains solely the league structure. - A 1 division pool is small and can lead to big que times. Same with +1 and -1 division. +2 and -2 is indeed a little stretch but I think Riot can play with these numbers. Why keep the SPI in the first place? Because while the division is an average skill indicator the game is structured in 5 different roles with at least 2-3 playstyles for each role. So you need a deeper grading for better matchmaking. Also,** very important**, the SPI must be based on pool average otherwise you can have skewed results favoring underperforming and disfavoring overperforming, something you don't really want. You want good players to climb, and bad players to demote. You also need a way to track him swapping to abuse the system, I called this abuse rating. You simply track how often he swapped with his lower positions and how big is the difference. SPI should be calculated based on Challenger best median values over 20-50 games How will the system works abstractly: Let's take John, he is S1. First the pool is created: S3 S2 S1 G4 G3 From this pool, the games compute the average pool SPI for John's selected positions. The SPI scale is 0-1. Let's say John has a jungle SPI of 0.2 and an ADC SPI of 0.3. The pool average SPI is 0.4 and 0.5 for these positions. John occasionally has and abuse rating of 5% of his matches, so his abuse score is 0.05. His highest rating is the top with 0.4 SPI. Because John has an abuse score of 0.05 this means 0.05 * 2 (<- a constant that Riot should use to adjust the abuse prowess) = 0.1 (the score is capped at 1) of the difference between the highest is added to other SPI. So his new SPI are Jungle: 0.2+0.1*(0.4-0.2) = 0.22 and ADC: 0.3+0.1*(0.4-0.3) = 0.31 Now let's return to the system. A quick recap: Jungle SPI: 0.22 , ADC SPI: 0.31 and Average Jungle SPI: 0.4 and Average ADC SPI: 0.5 The game now creates a team. He looks for other people with John SPI for Jungle since is his primary role. But because of John's SPI being bellow the average for league, the game will look to matchmake him with someone who has a better SPI than John by a factor of a difference. The constant should be adjusted by Riot after field test. How will that work: John Jng SPI: 0.22 - person to matchmake John should be at least 0.22+ 0.4 _ (<- average jng SPI) _ - 0.22 * Skill Gap Constant (let's take it 0.25) =0.22+ 0.18*0.25 = 0.22+ 0.045, so the game will search around 0.265 with a small variation (let's say +-0.005 or +-0.01, i dunno, these should be tested in field) The game has a hard time to find a jng in those values, tries on ADC. Computes the ADC SPI and finds one. Voila, you'll have the whole team nearly balanced. For further balance, they can factor the fact someone is below or above the median SPI and try to balance the number so that each team has the same bellow and above players Hope this clears the air. Imho this will be a way better system. Not saying there aren't other better ideas out there, but Riot should make their mind and implement one already
Kai Guy (NA)
: Ok, But the assumption is that higher = better right? I need to know if your trying to do it subjectively or objectively for your ratings. So can you put a expectation on how much better +2 is compared to a 0 for example and is it consistent between players? What is the point to division +1 or -1 if they are not separating players by skill as You cant use that to have MM for skill if its non existent. So, how do you grade skill and what does it look like? Are you talking about an Objective system or Subjective system for grading? If you use WR and you have set expectation for probabilities to win? That's an Elo derivative. If you want to use a Subjective rating that ignores Win rates and who your vs that's a Subjective system. Something in-between can be done, if that's what your aim is how much better are players across divisions? What value is that and how is it generated? Please tell me you have some numbers in mind and solid logic to support it. I want to know what your talking about here. Elo? Subjective rating? Other (If so what is its values?) Also how does this fix non communitive teams or deal with some one who tilted then threw a game?
> if they are not separating players by skill Being in a division is a separation of skill in itself. Then you have the lane mastery rating I proposed for a deeper matchmaking in that skill range. Now the division distribution is indeed skewed atm, but if you reset the ladder and implement the system, the skill will redistribute itself The rest of the questions make no sense to me, so please rephrase them more clearly
: He is in a Superposition state
That's why he can quantum tunnel from 0/11 to 22/11
: RIOT ARE BUFFING YASUO AND KINDRED
Does akali need more nerfs though?
Kai Guy (NA)
: How much better would a +2 player be vs a 0. How much better then a -2? What odds would you give them?
I meant there to be the player pool and those are the division range they are matchmade, like a Silver 1 can only play with Gold 4 and 3 and silver 2 and 3 . Thus the matchmake pool is G4,G3,S1,S2,S3 . Now matchmake pool is based on MMR, division don't really matter just as an approximation for the hidden MMR. Ideally, an incrementation system would be the best, so the pool starts with your division only, then in 30 seconds widens one more +1 and -1 division and in 3 minutes widens more
Hordes66 (NA)
: Wow, after 8 months a rioter finally shows up to acknowledge the existence of a thread about the awful state of season 9 matchmaking. Don't you have balance issues to ruin?
Was surprised too, but a welcomed one
Bazerka (NA)
: Curious if you had any thoughts around how we could design a system to account for things like how often a player communicates etc. Sounds like a lot of the factors that make up "balance" as you describe it is more around the people playing the game that you have to play with rather than the game itself?
Ok here are my 2 cents for the matchmaking: - **get rid of MMR ELO system**, because obviously getting rid of the **league ** system is not in discussion: I get it, ELO system is easier to balanced mathematically since there are tons of algorithms out there, but this "hack" never worked. The answer to this is sure: "but dude, this will leave too many gaps, like how do we account for boosters? how do we balance quick climbing, or "going down" . Here comes my next point - **lane mastery matchmaking** : You already have this system in place, it's right there in the game where few know how to find it. You give a score and account for a number of parameters for lane prowess. So you compute a 0-1 scale mastery that is ever-changing and visible. This will have 2 outcomes: people will try to improve their actual game, not just chasing kills and ofc in matchmaking. How will people then not abuse this by having one max lane mastery and 0 in others and they will matchmake? If the difference is too big and he is not autofilled, the game accounts the lane mastery+(abuse rating 0.5-0.8 scale)*diff(max lane mastery- lane mastery) . What about the player pool? +2 and -2 div will mean a player pool of 5 divisions. Master + Challenger should be locked together + if it passes a certain time to account lower division (like: 5 minutes passed, consider D1, 10 minuts passed consider D2, etc) - **angel system**: when the game detects a player is performing poorly, then to engage with that player with a pop-up to give him hints on how to improve and to serve as a sort of a 'tilt barrier' and some videos he can watch on topics he needs to improve
  Rioter Comments
: Early picks no longer fall off.
They fall off hard. The problem is gold Kill gold is so valuable compared to farming. Not only that but a champion like that also stops you from farming efficently. They also probably taken turret plates, which are imho a stupid snowbally concept. So 30 min in you get 3 items and they have full build. Ofc you can't do anything against them
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: >The only reason they care about TFT is because DotA released a popular game mode and Riot wanted to cash in on it. dota didn't release shit, a player copied a warcraft mod and made it into a dota arcade mode
I mean DoTA itself is an ex warcraft mod. That's a weird criticism
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: Yeah he is not AS squishy as NAMI but he is by all means, squishy. Sorry but you're only getting upvotes because this thread is a huge circle jerk. Pyke is definitely not a tank and every single person who says he is a tank should just simply walk out of this discussion cuz he got no idea what he's talking about.
If you go 2 lethality items rush, ofc he's squishy,but that's not what a good puke does unless he is way ahead
Rioter Comments
: when is ff@15 going to be reduced to 4/1?
No This is stupid, so many people die while losing a TF and announce the game is over. 20 minutes later we win. You play until the last. Surr should be when the enemy team is clearly way ahead, CLEARLY. If they are that away ahead the game is under 20 min anyway
: Just ban Lee Sin if you're worried about it. Learning how to deal with pressure on your jungle is part of being a good player.
You realise it was an example no and he's not only champion :)
: Why does Riot continue to invest on E-Sports/ Pro play when it's not even close to be profitable ?
What do you define profitability? If e-sports is bringing them exposure and a stream of new players, then it's profitable. Also the pro scene offers the game credibility that is a fair competitive game, which boosts retention. So at the end, profitability is a vague term
: Correction: jungling if you are trying to gank is frustrating. Forget all the pro shit you watch. Just remember that jungling has three modes that you can play. Farming - Low risk, low reward. Chill out in your jungle, grab a Bloodrazor and get up to 2 items before you come out swinging. Often times you can carry if you get farmed up, but you can easily lose the game before that happens. (Late game strategy, preferred by hyper carries like Yi and Shyvana, countered by gank junglers because kills give more gold to the enemy team than you get by farming) Counterjungling - Medium risk, medium reward. Put your opponent behind by sneaking into the enemy jungle and taking camps. Often times, you can even deny the enemy jungler's first gank if you start at their red while they start blue. They need the health regen from red to make an early gank and if you take it away, you are setting them behind in gold and XP. (Medium game strategy, the preferred strategy of tank junglers because they usually can't gank before 6, countered by farming junglers because you can't farm their jungle faster than they can) Ganking - High risk, high reward. Punish extensions by forcing summoner spells and then return to the lane to capitalize and get some gold and XP lead for your team. A very popular strategy in coordinated comps with voice chat (see also: all pro teams) because exact timing between abilities allows for unique combos that would not be possible without the fog of war (a perfectly timed Thresh hook can pull someone slightly back into an Amumu bandage, for instance). (Early game strategy, the preferred strategy of mobile assassins, countered by counter junglers because they leave their jungle exposed and reveal themselves on the map so often, and kills do not grant very much XP) If you don't want to gank, don't gank. Just set up a strategy in another way. Often times, when I'm jungling, my strategy is map control. I like to rush {{item:3512}} in the jungle and bring my Demolish when I gank. I can force a flash and when the enemy backs at low health, we crush turret and grab some free turret gold. It's not as much as a kill, but it's more permanent. A dead enemy will get back up. A turret won't. Grab dragons and Rift Herald when the enemy jungler ganks. Permanent buffs to your team, again, won't come back to the other side. But you can make up gold.
No, When there's fpr example a Lee Sin that constantly puts pressure on your jungle, you are left to do nothing unless your lane comes to help. Guess what, almost never happens. That's why in lower ELO counter jungling is pure nightmare to be against and an easy way to carry games if you do it
: u realize the rank 1 is a jungler, and jungler does not need buffs, it needs nerfs. https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Santorin
Karthus jungle spam. Healthy champion /s
: Jungling is frustrating.
They need a kill reduction early on, like first 6 minutes, kills give half the gold.
: God it's almost like riot is a business or something and have to make money what the fuck right?
God it's almost like a business has to screw its core values and player base or something and just to make money what the fuck right?
: the state of riven
They need to somehow make riven more tankier and with less damage. She feels like an assassin-fighter hybrid most of the times
Lapis (OCE)
: How is nerfing a 47% winrate champ making her healthy?
Win rate doesn't necessarily dictate a champions healthiness. Look at Akali and tell me if that champion used to be healthy. Now it's better, but still
Rioter Comments
: Similar with Gnar and Yummi botlane. It makes any ADC want to pull their hair off.
Maybe, but still ... this has to be addressed ASAP. If I get more games like this when I feel like fighting a raid boss despite similar item cost I'm done with this game (i know he ended the game full build, but at one point he was only a little ahead and he was still nearly unkillable)
arowin242 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=GripaAviara,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbOor4ea,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-07-23T14:16:25.772+0000) > > At the end of teh game yes. But he didn't need the end of the game to be like this. We couldn't damage him 15 minutes and 2 items earlier so yuumi pretty much was attached on him from 15 mins in? i have a sneaking suspicion that those 2 where communicating / cooperating seeing as he used the shield bash rune, which is usually useless on garen. not only that it seems he crushed renekton's lane, snowballed of that into the unkillable raid boss state which most juggernauts are infamous for. next time, buy your own black cleaver, lethality / crits wont achieve anything if he builds randuins' omen (which also has a good active for garen.) communication vastly improves a teams performance, his team consisted out of 1 strong late game character (vanye) 2 strong mid game characters (garen and ahri) and a strong support (yuumi). his team clearly was communicating in order to achieve victory, and they achieved it. alternatively, buy a lord domoniks regard or mortal reminder next time, if you must rush it so you can deal with him. crit is nice and all, but it wont achieve much without a LDR or mortal reminder to punch trough 300 armour and without IE you can forget damaging someone with randuins. That's all.
> if you must rush it so you can deal with him. While it would've helped, was my next to get item, garen wasn't the only one there and alone, without precursor items, that item is useless I have no problem in the end he won, the problem was that we couldn't deal more that 15% damage to him, all 5 of us in a 20 second fight. That's nuts when you consider he could 2v5 which is not normal at that stage of the game
arowin242 (EUW)
: that Garen had about 300 armor at the end of the game, combined with his spirit visage (which boosts healing received, including yuumi's) allowed him to easily tank your primarily AD comp (renekton, kha'zix and jayce) despite that he still had about 150+ MR giving him enough survivability against your lux and karma. to add up on this his 2 damage items where black cleaver and steraks gage, these 2 items alone can boost garen AD into the 250's which allows him to shred your team of primarily squishes apart. combine this with sterak's gage shield which was probably around 1500 hp worth of shielding, yuumi's healing increasing when her attached partner is on low HP and also giving them AD/AP. yeah no wonder he tore you all apart. i'm not even going into details such as the villain mechanic, or the fact he carried when he had a xin zhao who was completely AFK. your team apparently did not know how garen functions, at least not completely. also where his other teammates nearby in that last fight? that ahri and vayne could have easily sneaked in allot of damage. That's all.
At the end of teh game yes. But he didn't need the end of the game to be like this. We couldn't damage him 15 minutes and 2 items earlier And wtf is your point really? It;s this ok to have a champion like this? I get the mechanics but that's utterly not the fking point
: > [{quoted}](name=GripaAviara,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbOor4ea,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T14:05:27.575+0000) > > Adapted? he just had the standard tanky build second wind and shield bash. its not the standart. second wind makes it harder to poke him down, especially with yuumi heals and shields added. shield bash is a rune that garen would otherwise never take. it grants him additional bonus resistances when yuumi shields him. this combo would probably work with other juggernauts, or maybe even tanks aswell. i can see this working well with {{champion:75}} who would add his lifesteal on top of yuumis sustain and become almost impossible to poke out. especially with wither to disengage all in attempts. i could see this work with {{champion:36}} too who already has a lot of innate sustain, farms pretty well and deals a lot of damage in melee. the reason why he dealt so much damage by the way is because {{champion:350}} grants a lot of bonus ad or ap to the champion shes attached to.
And you find that OK??? Yummi is fking invulnerable so it's basically an undamagable garen you are facing that if he gets close kills you in a 3-4 seconds
: its yuumi. her shields and heals are nuts and increase with her allies missing health, so garen/yuumi uses that in combination with garens base health and defensive stats off his w. they also stack shield bash on top of it, which gives him exta armor and mr during yuumis shields. another big key component (probably the biggest) is the double support items. garen runs {{item:3302}} and yuumi runs {{item:3303}} overall garen just becomes a vehicle for yuumis poke that is hard to engage on. that way theyre stacking extra gold generation in the duo lane. its the same concept as with {{champion:37}} {{champion:44}} bot lane where both of them get a support item and generate an extra gold stream. usually you also run orianna mid lane with that combo for another shield + more resistances and another speed boost. i wanted to play that lane for a while now and try it for myself. its actually interesting to see garen in the bot lane position for pretty much the first time ever.
I don't know if it's smart for bot, since u can barely farm. But the moment he gets 2 items and Yummi on top of him, he is unkillable and he has enough damage to destroy anyone. Maybe i donno Vayne, Kaisa or other broken dps champions can deal with him, but otherwise like we saw last game, you can't kill him. You can't damage him almost at all. This has to be one of the lowest point in this games life. Because it's simply stupid and make me want to delete the game. It's not fair to waste 30 minutes to be faced by an undamagable wall that silences and deals tons of damage despite he is a fking wall
: Maybe that Garen you played adapted his built based on your team's comp. But I do see in some of games he's just impossible to kill; worse than Mundo and Tryn during his ult.
Pxerkza (EUNE)
: PASSIVE: Garen permanently gains Armor icon 0.33 bonus armor and Magic resistance icon 0.33 bonus magic resistance every time he kills an enemy unit, up to a maximum of 50 bonus resistances at 150 unit kills. ACTIVE: Garen reduces incoming damage by 60% and has 60% Tenacity icon Tenacity for the first 0.75 seconds. For the rest of the duration Garen reduces incoming damage by 30%. DURATION: 2 / 2.75 / 3.5 / 4.25 / 5 he was also building full tank and you also had no forms of anti tank damage
I specifically wrote after the spell went off. We kited him to hell but to no avail even if he wasted the Active like a fool in some occasions
Rioter Comments
Εlin (EUW)
: Imagine you are allowed to delete one champion from the game?
Veigar, he's broken There's no other champion that tilts me the way veigar does. Only his stun is ultimate level, you can literary shut down a fight with veigar using that stun . On top of that you have Q+R combo that deletes any champion not being a MR tank
: Nerf Kaisa
The problem with Kaisa is her invisibility. It makes her too overpowered once achieved
: No, Kai'sa doesn't kill a Cho'Gath in 0.6 second
2 seconds, she can easily if goes hybrid and cho builds no MR+Armor
Darvasi2500 (EUNE)
: My only problem with sivir is her spell shield. Because it's way too forgiving. If they would just make it like tf's blue card so it costs some mana but it gives back more mana then it costs that would be fine imo. Or at least the laning phase wouldn't be like: "Great she used her spell shield to get away from a hook, now we can kill her. (Except that she has a passive that helps her run away and our engage spell is on cd because she just blocked it)... and there she goes using her shield again for the 7th time now but we still didn't really achieve anything because it doesn't have any mana cost." Although at least most sivir players who just tend to spam the spell shield can be killed in the late game because of that. Ezreal on the other hand. I hate him. It's so annoying that he scales so well that no matter how bad he's been doing early game once he gets his muramana stacked he can kill you in a full combo.
Sivir without her spell shield would be the worst adc, as she has 0 escape, 0 cc. What actually makes Sivir strong is her jumping blades crit. That needs to be removed on champions
Rioter Comments
coreym11 (NA)
: Bot lane has turned so stressful and so cheese to play, doesn't even feel competitive
I hate lux, I started to ban that overpowered champion kept in this state to sell the damn skins. While maybe Lux is not your 1v5 hard carry for people to consider being broken, it is. The fact a stary Q can hit you and with a full combo you are dead at lvl 8 vs theoretical support it's absurd. Not to count the fact being rooted means you are also mad vulnerable to their ADC
: Irelia fanart by Chengwei Pan
Riot: not enough ass, pass!
: When an "assassin" support is safer than the quintessential backline "safe" supports
Pyke is a mess of a champion. It's fun to play but stupid to play against and overloaded
: Can't believe people are actually crying about Pyke. Get better, try that for a change. Pyke has the worst damage output out of all the champions in this game. Don't believe me, test it. Play 15-20 games, look at the damage to champions at the end of the game, I bet anyone a free skin that you can't get him at the highest dps on that chart fed or not fed. You can literally go 20-0 on pyke and I guarantee you would still not be at the top of chart as far as DPS to champions. His damage output is a joke. If you nerf his ult, you are completely rendering a champion useless. His last nerfs hit him insanely hard, it baffles me that people are asking for more nerfs.
You don't need damage output when you got teammates to do that.
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GripaAviara

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