wildfox99 (EUW)
: > Man the down votes speak for themselves,youre delusional not like it's the first time i see a forum,like the downvotes really matters,it may be that there are some people that agree with you and are just downvoting because i'm saying something that they don't like,idc it's just a really tiny part of a part of lol community btw even if the majority say i'm wrong,that doesn't mean i am,otherwise we would still think the earth is flat,so bad point (again) nobody is crying,i made my points so i don't see why i should be delusional...instead look how you are basically trying to find any excuse for saying i'm wrong,instead of answering me,but yes i'm the delusional one >"so basically i have to get 3/4 defensive items and giving up damage and CDR for getting killed with 1 or 2 more autos?" Liandry is a defensive only item? Zhonya doesnt give CDR? ROA doesnt give AP? Yeah,having 800 HP +45 armor you didn't get the point again i mean for having the same safeness an AP would need a full defensive build that not every mage can effort (not every mage can build these items,especially before their core ones),while an AD can have the same safeness with a 1300g item (vs the 3 slots 9000g needed for your 3 items?) have you even played an AP? they need mana pool,CDR (i see only 10% CDR in these items),high AP items (all low AP items,you won't deal any damage),no one of these items give at least 2 of these stats if you build these ones you wont build these items {{item:3165}} / {{item:3089}} / {{item:3135}} ,each give essential stats that a mage can't skip,you have to give up CDR,AP or/and magic penetration >Invulnerability which will end up delaying your death by 2.5 sec or being useless vs a DPS (i mean in 1vs1),there are just a few cases where it can be really useful >so basically i have to get defensive item and give up damage,lifesteal,armor pen, for getting killed with 1 or 2 more spells? you are giving up 20 AD,wow.... getting killed with 2 more spells or AA isn't the same,AA can't be dodged and have no CD,if you survive a mage rotation he have to wait like 7/10 sec before he can do any damage (especially with the lack of damage and CDR that the item you mentioned would give,the only decent is {{item:3151}} ),if an ADC can't kill me with 3 autos he need just another one,like 0.something sec after the previus? >you argue that ADC is not just someone,its the main damage source of the team,yet you have,as you yourself said with the most nerfed mid mage,managed to get almost every game close to the same or even more damage done than your adc. did you even read my answer? ofc if i have 20 or more kills and the whole time i'm fighting while my ADC got stomped and is playing the whole game bot afk farming i will outdamage him,but still my damage output (not damage over the whole game) was just a bit higher than him then we are talking about my main,not a random champion,i see you main ADC (should have noticed that from your points,you almost never played a mage),and i see your games with MF where you are overfeed as well,so i could make exatly the same point (which still makes no sense) >i cant seem to crit for 800 per auto as you stated full build i usually reach 300 AD/2.00+AS with some ADC (300*250% = 750,add any damage buff that every ADC or ADC item have),you named 4 items,but i said "full build or almost" (because with 4 items her W would deal somethinkg like 350-400 damage,or less,depeds from your build) >for the love of god you need to play a few games of ADCs,especially try to play something like Kog or Jinx it's funny how i just said i actually play ADC (and basically every role),sure last games were mostly with mages because i'm trying new builds,but i play many ADC >some adc that needs to be peeled for,and see how easy it is to pump out those autos when Kha comes out of stealth in your face again,we are not talking about assassins,but about mages it's the same if you are playing a mage,the only difference is that they mainly focus ADCs as they deal more damage than mages with a nice support (and eventually {{item:3026}}) a kha will never kill you unless you are out of positioning even you admited that ADC are too strong,there is a reason if an ADC can't be replaced while a mage can,or that ADCs are the first focus and they are the ones that you don't want to die and usually gets tons of shield,heals and buffs
Still man in a 1v1 fight if a mage lands his CC the ADC is dead or has 20% hp left,which means he has to run away now or risk chasing you till you get your cd back,which on most AP champs is 2--4 seconds for your main damage ability. Secondly ADCs maybe deal more DPS,but thats ALL they do,mages bring different things to the table,CC,AOE damage,long range artillery, There are just things that no ADC can do that a mage can,Malzha R is basically a death sentence for anyone targeted,Orianna R can win games,Xerath can do damage from half a map away,Ryze can teleport the whole team,TF can reveal the whole enemy team and can come to gank wherever needed,Cass can stun a whole team,Azir can make a turret,Taliyah can make a wall etc. They bring also with them the CC and utility that ADCs just dont have,they only have raw damage,and with that being sad even then most of the time they cant kill a mage 1v1 unless the mage misses 2 of his spells at least,or as you said they have a Maw,that still wont save them from a QER Jarvan or Rengar ulting. I do play mages sometimes,mostly Malzahar,who's op now,and Lux,and i stomp people with them usually,if you get someone in a Lux Q they're good as dead
HeHé (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=HarrowR,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n3yYGLHe,comment-id=0005000100010000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:53:15.899+0000) > > Was dia 1 on west on my other acc,now i barely even play ranked,nice fail Ofc my friend,aren't we all D1 in our hearts?I got rid of that spacebar after the comma to make it easier for you to read,no need to thank me.
http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=H%C3%A0rrowR You must feel pretty stupid now dont ya,didnt play here for almost a year so my rank dropped
: Hmmm, highest winrate champ in the game: mahlz (a control mage) Highest winrate assassin in the game: kat (an AP assassin). Meanwhile zed and talon both have under 50% winrate. Hmmmmm. Zoe can literally 1 shot squishies from a lane's length lol. Anivia is a control mage no? She has a solid 51% winrate dipping in 52 for a couple of patches now Same with twisted fate and zilean. Just the fact you compared ashe to an artilary mage shows your lack of understanding and total bias. If you think adc are so ez, why not pick one up and climb out of silver 4?
If you think adc are so ez, why not pick one up and climb out of silver 4? god damn,that burn's so nasty it needs a polar ice cap to cool it
wildfox99 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=HarrowR,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfzLlbE8,comment-id=00090001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T20:03:47.756+0000) > > If a mage could have something for not getting killed with 3 autos? Are you kidding me {{item:3157}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3027}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3030}} etc etc. Buy 2 of these HP items and you have well over 700 hp more than any ADC,buy zhonya and you get armor and invul. so basically i have to get 3/4 defensive items and giving up damage and CDR for getting killed with 1 or 2 more autos? 300 hp or 45 armor wont help much vs an ADC,**not as much as 1 half ADC item can do vs a mage** > You've never been one shotted by a mage as an ADC,come on,i lost it at this point,anyone here who ever played adc knows how easy it is to get one shotted,especially cause of the damage creep,Lux gets you with her Q? Youre dead,Syndra hits you with QWR youre dead,Malzh presses R,youre dead,Orianna full combo,dead,Annie combo,dead,Veigar can only press R and insta kill you,youre being very biased,you've played 2 games with an ADC and you think you know it all no,not without having them 8+ kills ahead of me (and yet just sometimes) i have to admit i may be bacause i main mid so i know how to counter those champions,but honestly no,i find so easy playing vs a mage as ADC >you've played 2 games with an ADC and you think you know it all what? i almost never played ADC in **ranked** unless autofilled,it's not my main role,but i played them a lot on drafts even in this pre season (i enjoyed running down bot without my support as draven and getting a triple when i got ganked XD) >You say you've built this on Vayne and tristana got full combod,and lived,lol,im not sure whats more unbelivable in this story,the fact that you bought Maw as what? 2nd,3rd item? and still did damage enough to kill them? Or the fact that full combo didnt get you to half hp,support Sona full combo maybe. On most crit adcs you need first 3 items followed by some Lifesteal or LDR,still if you bought Maw as a 4th item that would still mean that for at least 30 minutes of the game that mage had all the time in the world to one shot you,and you trade possible protection against a one shot,i say possible cause most mages can still oneshot even through a Maw or at least get you low enough that one more spell means death,you trade Lifesteal or Arpen for that,you dont see the bigger picture? Yes you can survive that burst now maybe,but that tank isnt going to die by himself,and the enemy ADC that got pen or botrk now killed your tank,and now you dont have a frontline,and now you lost,gg no need to get an early maw,an {{item:3155}} (just a 1300g delay,as crit items are that cheap you can efford it) is enought for not to being killed untill they don't get {{item:3089}} + {{item:3135}} especially if both the AP and ADC are the only fed,just get it and the AP wont be able to stop you while you still do more damage than enemy ADC because you are fed,what an AP can do here? nothing,both were fed but still the AP loses it is not ADC fault,i mean this damn item need almost 6600 gold for being countered,and when it gets his upgrade it give the same protection than 2/3 mage items,while still giving a nice amount of AD,lifesteal and CDR... >Edit: "it's not someone,it's the main damage of their team that can't actually get killed easily",i just checked your match history,80% of your ahri games you had Almost the same or more damage than yours or your enemies ADC,with Ahri,a champ that has 3 dashes,a CC,Sustain,and Damage,and you're still crying how you feel like you have to outplay an adc,how is hitting your W and then oneshotting them an outplay name me a champion that is not a support that can't oneshoot you if 15+kill ahead,tell me where i was whining,i've never said "ADC role is broken because it is" or something,i explained my points (or at least i think) >with Ahri,a champ that has 3 dashes,a CC,Sustain,and Damage (...) how is hitting your W and then oneshotting them an outplay i was taking you seriously,before i noticed you were trolling or something here are you seriusly complaining about ahri? one of the most nerfed mid laners? 3 dashed with 110 sec CD,her only CC is easy to doge and gets blocked by tanks,her sustain isn't that much (compared with other sustain abilities) as well and damage...damage...as if she wouldn't be barely able to kill a squishy glasscannon only if she hits **everything**,only TF deals less burst damage than her (because he still win on DPS with more than 1 rotation) especially there >how is hitting your W and then oneshotting them an outplay so...140+30%AP (30% for successive foxfires),with 600AP (full build or almost) it deals barely 500 **pre mitigation **damage,at the time an AD with crit deals 800+damage per AA don't make random points just because i play her,as if it isn't clear that you mentioned her only because she's my main,if i'd main nunu i'm pretty sure you would have complained about his as well (if it is even possible)
Man the down votes speak for themselves,youre delusional,"so basically i have to get 3/4 defensive items and giving up damage and CDR for getting killed with 1 or 2 more autos?" Liandry is a defensive only item? Zhonya doesnt give CDR? ROA doesnt give AP? Yeah,having 800 HP +45 armor and Invulnerability is useless vs an adc but by god you buy {{item:3155}} and those mages now do 0 damage to you cause you got 35 MR and 200 Magic shield,cant i use the same argument you did? so basically i have to get defensive item and give up damage,lifesteal,armor pen, for getting killed with 1 or 2 more spells? just change spells with autos and voila,also im not complaining about ahri,im saying how you argue that ADC is not just someone,its the main damage source of the team,yet you have,as you yourself said with the most nerfed mid mage,managed to get almost every game close to the same or even more damage done than your adc. Also,so...140+30%AP (30% for successive foxfires),with 600AP (full build or almost) it deals barely 500 pre mitigation damage,at the time an AD with crit deals 800+damage per AA,sure,i must be doing something wrong cause when i get {{item:3031}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3153}} i cant seem to crit for 800 per auto as you stated,the number would look much closer to 400 without the statik proc,to anyone that has Ninja Tabi or Zhonya. I get your frustration,im not saying ADCs arent strong,or that Mages are op,but for the love of god you need to play a few games of ADCs,especially try to play something like Kog or Jinx,some adc that needs to be peeled for,and see how easy it is to pump out those autos when Kha comes out of stealth in your face,one shots you,and then disappears like nothing happened.
: I think what we're both really saying, is that the game needs to get a huge shift back four or five years to before everything got power-creeped. >_>
Nah man,we're not saying the same thing,you want to see an entire class of champions gutted so they can be easy pickings anytime you take a champ that can dive or jump on them. You want them to all be immobile squishy kog maws where even if the team peels and protects all you need is to flash onto him and press R. News flash,ADCs four or five years ago didnt need supports,they were self reliant,there was much less damage and much less oneshotting,ADCs would build first item BT that gave them 100 damage,yes a 100 damage when fully stacked,and yeah,Vayne,Draven,Lucian,pre-rework Graves,Tristana,Ez,they were in the game 4-5 years ago,all who can 1v1 effectively,and why shouldnt they,why would an entire class look exactly the same as Ashe or Kog,just be a glorified turret minion. The state of the game youre longing for was 2 or so years ago when it was Tank meta and ADCs were nerfed to hell,everyone could one shot them and they couldnt kill anything,saying you want that back is like me saying i'd like to see tanks drop in 2 shots.
: Lol isnt that the case seeing as they have A SUPPORT? literally any class that sneezes on them blows them up. Most of the people crying about carries either cry because THEY got caught out, or the enemy team peeled for their carry. No adc can survive without peel in a fair fight (meaning he didnt get fed), idk where you people come up with these absurd scenerios of adc 1v5 insta gibbing everyone, but 99% of the time it doesnt happen.
Im always asking myself the same question,especially since most people crying are bronze/silver elos and there you know nobody peels for the adc,he's a free kill,even if he gets fed a bronze adc will usually go into a teamfighting and try to chase the enemy backline or something,or he will stand there right click and not move or kite
wildfox99 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=HarrowR,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfzLlbE8,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:03:23.808+0000) > > Oh no you have to outplay someone to kill him,especially in a 1v1? it's not someone,it's the main damage of their team that can't actually get killed easily if a mage would be as impactful as an ADC it'd be ok,if an ADC couldn't deny a mage kill pressure with 1300g it;d be ok,or if a mage could as well have something for not to getting killed with 3 autos it'd be ok >to know how it feels like to have to outplay someone everytime you 1v1,play an adc it's not like i don't play ADC,i played varus and kog with {{item:3091}} + {{item:3124}} and enemy were melting while a mage couldn't get barely half of my HP with 1 combo (no,i wasn't feed) or vayne/tristana or basically every ADC with a {{item:3155}}/{{item:3156}} and {{item:3139}} if needed,it happened many times that i had a shitty positioning and enemy mage engaged me,even thought i got in my face a full combo i still killed him unless there is a feed **AD **(because if he's an AP ujst get an {{item:3155}} as i said and you are ok) assassin or we go in TF and i get focussed by 5 people because i was out of positioning i've never been oneshooted > I really cant imagine Jhin killing a Jarvan,Rengar,Zed 1v1 i've nerver mentioned bruisers and assassins,plus they are all AD champions (what a coincidence)
If a mage could have something for not getting killed with 3 autos? Are you kidding me {{item:3157}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3027}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3030}} etc etc. Buy 2 of these HP items and you have well over 700 hp more than any ADC,buy zhonya and you get armor and invul. You've never been one shotted by a mage as an ADC,come on,i lost it at this point,anyone here who ever played adc knows how easy it is to get one shotted,especially cause of the damage creep,Lux gets you with her Q? Youre dead,Syndra hits you with QWR youre dead,Malzh presses R,youre dead,Orianna full combo,dead,Annie combo,dead,Veigar can only press R and insta kill you,youre being very biased,you've played 2 games with an ADC and you think you know it all You say you've built this {{item:3156}} on Vayne and tristana got full combod,and lived,lol,im not sure whats more unbelivable in this story,the fact that you bought Maw as what? 2nd,3rd item? and still did damage enough to kill them? Or the fact that full combo didnt get you to half hp,support Sona full combo maybe. On most crit adcs you need {{item:3087}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3094}} first 3 items followed by some Lifesteal or LDR,still if you bought Maw as a 4th item that would still mean that for at least 30 minutes of the game that mage had all the time in the world to one shot you,and you trade possible protection against a one shot,i say possible cause most mages can still oneshot even through a Maw or at least get you low enough that one more spell means death,you trade Lifesteal or Arpen for that,you dont see the bigger picture? Yes you can survive that burst now maybe,but that tank isnt going to die by himself,and the enemy ADC that got pen or botrk now killed your tank,and now you dont have a frontline,and now you lost,gg Edit: "it's not someone,it's the main damage of their team that can't actually get killed easily",i just checked your match history,80% of your ahri games you had Almost the same or more damage than yours or your enemies ADC,with Ahri,a champ that has 3 dashes,a CC,Sustain,and Damage,and you're still crying how you feel like you have to outplay an adc,how is hitting your W and then oneshotting them an outplay
HeHé (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=HarrowR,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n3yYGLHe,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2017-12-08T23:09:46.306+0000) > > Oh shut up with that stupid old "he's not played in the LCS,people need to know how to play against him" argument > I've been playing this game since Season 1 Uhhhh, low Platinum after 7 years that hurts.
Was dia 1 on west on my other acc,now i barely even play ranked,nice fail
: Not sure wat ur talking about, sorry.
Mb thought you were the same guy saying vayne shouldnt one shot no matter how fed she is
: > [{quoted}](name=Mimr,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZelvoE65,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2017-12-09T12:24:51.645+0000) > > If it's any comfort to you a Wukong recently managed to 100-0 me in 0.31 secs. Then he was fed. I play a lot of Wukong and that just isn't possible unless massively ahead.
Wow,take a step back and rethink what you said,you dont care if Vayne was overfed,she cant do that,but if champ you play a lot does that well its kay cuz hes just fed. Biased af
Kaeblen (NA)
: Can anyone explain to me... {{item:3087}} {{item:3094}} ????? The "Marksman" or "adc" class is theoretically centered around consistent, ranged, dps damage. They are a low hit point class, which was not origionally known for being "high mobility". These two items are fairly 'core build' to many adc now days. They give very high burst (predictable, but non-constant damage on an adjustable cooldown) to simple auto-attacks. ######They crit. Which is also a form of burst. and crit has been highly debated in its own right. And the to boot, they grant stacking movement speed to a class never EVER highlighted (positively) for its mobility. **These Items seem to be antithetical to the ideas a "Marksman" is based on.** They would make sense on an assassin, or even a mage (mages actually do have this in ludens echo), but they don't make a lot of sense for a marksman. Can someone explain this all to me.
Oh wow,so you must be pretty tight with riot developer team to know what adcs are and what they arent meant to be. Ive been playing since S1,back when where there wasnt crazy mobile champions like there are now and adcs still built 2 phantom dancers,one of the oldest adcs are all mobile,Vayne,Pre rework Graves,Tristana,Ezreal,Lucian etc. So i dont know where people get this adcs arent intended to be mobile shit
: I'd like to see ADCs have their self-reliance stripped away more than their damage, to be honest. If they want to enjoy having the game's highest damage potential then they should lose their ability to escape a bad duel. What I want is a return to the state where ADCs die instantly the moment they get caught alone. No more kite-everything-to-death or lifesteal-full-HP where they don't even need allies to protect them. Make them die the minute their team doesn't watch their back if you want them to have such overcharged damage power.
And i want tanks to not deal insane damage and i want assassins to actually have to land more than one spell to kill me not just proc duskblade hit one spell and instakill me,tough luck
: He'll be getting a lore update! Fiddlesticks is made of a bunch of sticks and a darkin
A bunch of lesbian sticks
: Where the hell did people get the notion that Malzahar is a "CC bot". If being a CC-bot was all it took to get a 55% win rate and be pick/ban in competitive - then you'd see Lissandra/Lulu mid a lot more, and Galio wouldn't have an absolutely abysmal win rate. No, its because his damage was also bonkers. I've played a lot of Malzahar in the past patch - and often times you would easily chunk someone for 2/3 of their health with just an E mid-late. Also 3 min flash was fucking broken on him.
True,buying QSS doesnt even matter,if you land Q,hit E and do some damage with R before they break,out of the cc they are dead anyways,if they chase you,your little minions will eat them away
wildfox99 (EUW)
: >If it in a team fight and you CC the ADC, then they are definitely dead as your team should follow. i build full damage as a mage (so i'm squishy as well),i need my teammates help for killing a squishy ADC while they still do more damage than me in TF,seems fair > If you are playing a burst mage (assassins, Victor, ect) it's all about positioning. Don't put yourself in a spot where they get the jump on you, you need to get the jump on them. If you see the ADC split pushing bot by themselves, sit a bush or over a wall, and when they get close burst them ADC don't have a lot of health, and rarely build defensively until their 5th or 6th item. If you are teamfighting, there are a massive amount of variables you need to consider to determine what you should do, but at least you should have your team around you to help deal with the ADC. i just don't see why a class which is supposed to be the **main damage** of the team and that is already protected by his teammates have to be this strong in 1vs1 fights and that hard to kill...you want build full glasscannon and dealing 800+ damage per auto with 2+AS with no counterplay (you can't dodge autos unless you are jax or shen) while lifestealing for the 30+% of your damage? ok but you should get popped by everyone and you shouldn't be that strong if not peeled,actually i feel like i have to outplay an ADC for killing him,and that mages exist only for not to allow tanks build full armor
Oh no you have to outplay someone to kill him,especially in a 1v1? What a cruel joke riot has played on you,you shouldnt be allowed to lose ever obviously,also on a side note,if you want to know how it feels like to have to outplay someone everytime you 1v1,play an adc,you get cced,rip,you cant kite,rip,the enemy has duskblade,rip,you are playing an immobile champ vs mobile one,rip. I really cant imagine Jhin killing a Jarvan,Rengar,Zed 1v1
: Low logic always amazes me
And then the same people come crying to boards about this and that,and they wont ever accept that theyre the ones doing things wrong,hell i was playing adc since S1 and it took me a few years to figure out what was my role in a teamfight,was always trying to rush besides the frontline to kill the enemy adc,and dying ofc, whats sad is that even now in plat sometimes i get flamed for focusing the frontline bruiser/fighter/tank instead of miraclously walking through the whole enemy team to focus the enemy adc
: That moment you realize that Yasuo isn't viable in the highest level of play because players that are more skilled actually know how to deal with him. - Yasuo at worlds? Nope. Yasuo in the LCS last season? Once. Yasuo ever viable competitively? Nope. - Yasuo is just like Master Yi, a champion that punishes players that have no idea how to play against them, but is borderline useless in organized play. This is a "get good" issue more than it is an issue with Yasuo being "overpowered".
Oh shut up with that stupid old "he's not played in the LCS,people need to know how to play against him" argument I've been playing this game since Season 1,and i've played VS more yasuo than Ark fucking Data has played Yasuo,and yes,he can get wrecked,hell,he gets wrecked fairly often,im not even complaining about that small % of Yasuo players that can 1v10 on him,im just baffled that they put so much shit into one champions kit,you cant have Double Crit,No mana,Free shield,unlimited dashes,and a fking basic ability that blocks every ranged skill/attack/ultimate(except lux and vel) in the game,just one or two of those things would be okay. Its not even a matter of knowing how to play against him,its a matter of me and my team mates using our ults just so he could block it with a 15 second CD ability,its a matter of him going 3/10 and still being able to 1v1 anyone thats fed and not a tank,its a matter of him getting that lucky Q knockup and instantly bursting you down,its a matter of how irritating it is to play versus this champion,i swear to god when i see him have his knockup Q ready i get anxiety,when he blocks that one last auto or ability with his shield or just erase all abilities flying towards him with his windwall i get depressed,i swear to god i've stopped playing champions that arent mobile enough to escape or kite him,and the fact that every 2 days theres a hate post regarding yasuo that gets upvoted to hell is a good indicator that somethings wrong with his kit.
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=HarrowR,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6e9EhfYj,comment-id=000600000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-07T20:14:27.728+0000) > > ???????? Just play the god damn champ,get fed one game,find a sona thats feeding,and see for yourself,if its not 70% then its 60%,which is still nothing to laugh about and proves my point of the game being a snowball fiesta where if youre ahead one spell or auto can do 50% of enemies hp,jeez man always some bronze 4 or silver 5 smartass in the boards teaching us what the game is or isn't You don't just move goalposts like that, you know? You're now claiming "its not 70% then its 60%", okay . . . except it doesn't just go that way, because the setup I used was deliberated exaggerated just to prove how impossible the "70%" claim is, by showing even in this almost impossible case the number does not reach 70%. Thus it is invalid to use that 60%, for the same reasons as 70%. The normal number, if I were to guess, is about 10-25% of someone's HP from Lux's E alone on reasonably fed targets with respectable HP and 40% at most if we consider the cases of snowballing under most practical scenarios. Now that is out of the way, good. .................. All of this does not "prove your point", in fact it proves that whatever you have there is opinion at best. Your "proof" is utterly insufficient, and has been the subject of rebuttal since the very beginning; it's just that you don't get it for some reason, and now I have to go through the trouble spelling it out, again. Coming back to your very first post and why the replies happened in the first place > Don't cry,i've seen Lux deal 70% of enemies HP with just her E that is also AOE and longer range than an auto,this game is just all about who snowballs the first and stomps the other team While the second part is your argument, your justification for the said argument is the first line. And it suggests 1. You say Lux's E alone can do 70% of enemies' HP. 2. You say E is also on top of it, an AoE and longer range, and so it makes it 'better' in a sense or at least 'comparable' and therefore we shouldn't complain about Vayne allegedly 1 shotting people with AA. Hence the "Don't cry". Issues have therefore been raised against the claims that formed and supported for your agenda. And so far we've successfully shown that the first bit is definitely false, something you also admit at this stage. And because of the shortcomings in 1. you thus also failed to justify the "don't cry" sentiment and the implied equivalence of mages and AA carries of 2.. This means you have not proved that the game is a "snowball fiesta" without prejudice between champ class as initially claimed and/or implied. Therefore the argument is now baseless and invalid, at least as an argument, for its justification is no longer existing; and OP's rebuttal by pointing out that your point is ultimately based on moot, on the other hand, is entirely valid as a counterargument against your opener. So you can say "it's all about snowballing". Cool. Awesome. But that would be an opinion here unfortunately, because you've failed to justify it as an universal fact that is equally applicable for all champ class as you believe it is. And that's kinda the gist of the whole ordeal.
: I just played lucian adc for the first time since runes reforged and he's hot garbage
He needs at least a mini rework honestly,he's so useless against tanks,even with botrk,its much safer to take Tristana or Ez and just stay out of their range while you shoot them,second shot could deal % max Hp damage,or his ult could be reworked to something that can actually do more than 300 damage to a tank,its a shittier MF ult,where you can move but your whole ult can be blocked by a tank or just dodged,at least MF can get lucky and ult 3-4 people and kill at least 2
Hügö (EUW)
: Then you did something horribly wrong. Take press the attack and be a cool broken champ.
He did something horribly wrong? Lucian is literally the LOWEST winrate adc,check it for yourself,he's one of my favorite champs and one of my most played ones and even with all the time i've spent with him it still feels like garbage to play compared to Vayne,Twitch,Ez,Mf,Tristana,his range is too low and he does 0 damage to tanks,why would anyone that him over Vayne who can shred tanks,kite better than he can,actually has a usefull ult,can stealth,can self peel and stun etc etc.He needs a rework
: Weren’t there threads about how twitch is OP and Vayne is OP near a hundred votes just this week?
SEKAI (OCE)
: > Its a shame you tried so hard to calculate her E damage and is it possible for her to deal 70% of the damage but you cant use your brain and imagine a real situation I had deliberately exaggerated the case by blowing it out of certain levels of proportion already, just to see even in an almost perfect and unlikely scenario how much damage would Lux's E alone do; and Lux's E still fails to do the claimed 70% HP damage on the squishest champ in the game, who does nothing in preparation other than tanking it with their base, even in this deliberately exaggerated and unlikely setup. And so it means that "i've seen Lux deal 70% of enemies HP with just her E" is pretty much a practical impossibility, given it fails even in this deliberately extreme case of pitting Lux in arguably her highest damage possible form against the squishest possible champ entirely in their base. For your convenience, outside of the fact I comically assumed all procs would go off in that 1 hit and they all hit without fail, I even included in the damage booster of Death Cap, which is something almost nobody can finish before the end of game; though ofc, I didn't go full extreme of pitting full build Lux against say, a lvl1 character, because it's not anywhere practical and thus we don't consider it. Therefore, with the results, it's safe to claim that OP's rebuttal of "that's impossible" is entirely valid. I don't need to just sit there and "imagine a real situation" which you probably just mean pulling it out of the ass, because I already know for a fact your claimed case is one that approaches the chances of impossibility in a practical situation, or at the very least, VERY unlikely. I mean, why do you even think calculations and analyses are for, if not to enhance one's problem solving beyond mere "imagine"? .............. > ... is Lucian OP He's at 46% winrate or something,so yeah,a lot of things can happen in League Because balance and state of a champ are not just considered at winrate alone? So because you're inadequate in understanding even the very basics of statistical analysis, it means statistical analysis as a concept is invalid and inferior to "imagine"? Nah, mate. It's not that intuition is never useful, but you have to have relevant background knowledge first before you can make valid intuitive guesses. And atm you've shown us neither.
???????? Just play the god damn champ,get fed one game,find a sona thats feeding,and see for yourself,if its not 70% then its 60%,which is still nothing to laugh about and proves my point of the game being a snowball fiesta where if youre ahead one spell or auto can do 50% of enemies hp,jeez man always some bronze 4 or silver 5 smartass in the boards teaching us what the game is or isn't
: Season 3-4 actually
Then you remember that the only time ADCs like Vayne couldn't do this damage was in the dark ages of Tank meta while ADCs got also nerfed to hell,i remember how painful it was to play then,no matter what you did you couldnt kill a tank,and tank items were so cheap and gave so much that any figher or even assassin could just buy a sunfire as his 3rd item and be unkillabe for the adc,not long ago we had something similar with Tank Ekko and Tank Fizz,now imagine the same situation with ADCs having 3800 gold IE and 20-30% weaker than now
: Didnt the circle jerk agree adc are assassins? And divers?
And also at the same time drain tanks,even though everyone is crying about insane damage in preseason and how everyone can one shot peoplejavascript:;
Rioter Comments
: Didnt realize how ridiculous cost disparity was until its put like this so easy to see.
Don't be fooled so easily,like someone already mentioned,you dont build all of those costly items on a Bruiser,you usually build one or two and go tank,in the same manner i could present ADC items as being very expensive, BT 3700 BOTRK 3400 IE 3400 ER 3400 Triforce 3733 Merc 3600 etc,but you usually only build two of those items,i didnt see a lot of Bruisers going around with the OPs build
: Actually Riot: let’s revert BC nerfs and give it 30% armor shred again, lul
Can you link when they said that? I've seen some other people also posting about reverting BC changes
: one of the largest problems with adc is that they can afford to skip lifesteal items these days.
Like someone already said,everyone is complaining of how incredible the damage creep has become and that everyone is one shotting people,why then just not oneshot the ADC,he surely cant lifesteal a 2k dmg burst
: Everyone is talking about how there's tons of damage available now through through runes, how if you make one mistake you die instantly, and calling it the largest problem in the game and that it has ruined it... Yet also "one of the largest problems with adc is that they are skipping a combat sustain item".
If you've come here in search of logic, you have come to the wrong place.
: You are ignoring what i am saying Its not that Adcs cant have Mobility but on a class like that Mobility and CC should be niche cases and they should be super gated so that you cant excape with the same spell 2-3 times in the same fight none the less use it for damage and excapes like some adcs do
Also im not sure why youre even here discussing this,from your match history and your profile i see you are,and were bronze since season 4,your games are usually negative KDA with some very random build paths,it looks like youre playing the game just to have fun,so then just play to have fun,don't spend too much time discussing things. If you want,try playing Vayne or Twitch or any other "OP" adc for 10 games and see how many times you've managed to actually escape or outplay the enemy with your mobility,im guessing it wont be much
: You are ignoring what i am saying Its not that Adcs cant have Mobility but on a class like that Mobility and CC should be niche cases and they should be super gated so that you cant excape with the same spell 2-3 times in the same fight none the less use it for damage and excapes like some adcs do
Why not man,i just dont understand your reasoning,you have so many Divers/Fighters with much more mobility and cc than an ADC,Not to mention Assassins,how in the hell are you going to get away from an Akali? or Kassadin with 2second cd on his ult,hell,in a team fight he could go around the lane in 5 seconds and get to the backline,oneshot an ADC and go back,Jarvan has QE,if you escape that he has a range on his ULT,Sejuani has a HUGE aoe ranged stun,thats hard to dodge etc etc. For every mobility spell that an ADC gets other classes get 2 more,like i said,you obviously want ADCs to be reduced to Ashe,an overly team dependent champ that still can be dived and killed rather easy,at least Vayne has a chance to survive Zed,outplay him even maybe,this game should require skill,not just stat check and which class should kill which,its not rock paper scissors
: > [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6e9EhfYj,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2017-12-06T03:48:37.439+0000) > > It should ***NEVER*** be the case that *any* ADC bursts that hard, that quickly. Their supposed to be steady, safe, sustained damage dealers who can poke towers down, or chew through teams if left unchecked. > > Not able to out damage most assassins in a half second window, with a single Q + RMB from 550 range that you can't counter play in any way. Even if you CC her, or blow her up immediately after, that shot will still hit you, for apparently 1500ish damage if it crits. So basically, even as a super fed ADC and late game - I should never be able to kill a support or assassin that dives me, even if I out play them. Because their TTK - in your world - is supposed to be always better than an ADC. Yeah if that ever happens I'm uninstalling.
Chill man,most of the people here on this boards are Assassin/Mage/Yasuo mains that constantly complain about something,if its not ADCs doing damage its about Assassins doing damage,if not its about Tanks tanking damage,or something and most are bronze 4. Also for some reason most of them hate the guts of the ADCs,i've discussed with so many people on this boards that think adcs shouldn't get any mobility,hell,why not just delete all adcs and leave only Ashe then,why would the class need diversity or god forbid a way to escape from a gank or that Malphite that slammed his head on the keyboard,ulted,and now is chasing and burning you down with his sunfire cape
: Back when i started playing, vayne never just one-shot people. She did do alot of damage, but it was over time, due to the use of her silver bolts, and not just q-auto. I guess what I'm getting at is, she used to take alot more skill to use than she does now
And when was that? Season 5? Anyone here played since season 1? Hell i remember i would build 3 Phantom dancers,IE and 2 Blood Thirsters that gave +100 damage at the time on Ashe and would walk into an enemy base,and literally 1 shot people,and then I'd get flashed by a Ryze that had that cancer jumping ability that would jump between me and him and would 100-0 me in half a second,if you think that League didn't have this mcuh damage before youre very mistaken
Yets4240 (NA)
: It should ***NEVER*** be the case that *any* ADC bursts that hard, that quickly. Their supposed to be steady, safe, sustained damage dealers who can poke towers down, or chew through teams if left unchecked. Not able to out damage most assassins in a half second window, with a single Q + RMB from 550 range that you can't counter play in any way. Even if you CC her, or blow her up immediately after, that shot will still hit you, for apparently 1500ish damage if it crits.
In a game where Sona can burst down people in seconds and a full tank Malphite does 50% of Squishies HP with his full combo i dont see why an overfed Dedicated damage dealing class like the marksmen shouldn't be able to deal huge damage to an underfed squishy. I think what most people don't understand is that you being killed fast or one shotted doesnt only depend on the enemy that is attacking you,but it also depends on the champion and the build youre playing with. In other words no matter how fed a Vayne gets,she still doesnt build any HP or Resistances,and just an Ignite can deal 15-20% of her HP,not to mention that a 3/10 Rengar could still probably kill her with a Duskblade and his full combo,but thats just the way it is,the damage dealers like ADCs,Assassins and Mages are often squishy,and the one that strikes first usually wins. I've never seen a full tank Maokai,Poppy,Shen etc get one shotted by Vayne,did you?
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Akumu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6e9EhfYj,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-12-05T20:51:42.286+0000) > > Thats impossible sorry. I dont even need to explain why. Did a rough calculation and showed that even in extreme scenarios like a full damage build Lux up against a base Janna at level 18 (who is the glassiest champ in the game overall if we just count base constitutes), Lux's E would do about 60% of Janna's HP, assuming everything from that spell(E)+items+Runes hits and procs and Janna builds no resistance nor HP and does nothing to mitigate any damage beyond tanking with her base. Sure as far as theoretical possibilities are concerned, I'm sure Lux's E when full leveled and full build can legit 1 shot some lvl1 base characters; but as far as some practicalities are concerned, and given that it even fails to achieve 70% in that pretty extreme setup, it is indeed true the guy's claim, that Lux's E can 70%-shot someone's HP, does approach the impossibility side more than it does otherwise.
What? Did you ever play League of Legends,im not saying full build Lux did 70% of HP to a full build Galio,i just said that i've seen Lux do it,it might have been a 15/0 lvl 16 lux doing that to a 0/10 lvl 10 Sona or something,it doesn't matter,the fact is that its more important to snowball in this game than what champ youre actually playing,Any champ can do 70% of Max HP with one ability if they're fed enough and the enemy is underfed,I've seen Veigar 100-0 people with his W,i've personally killed a Nami with Lethality+Crit Lucian with just one shot,literally one AA,she was full hp,is Lucian OP? He's at 46% winrate or something,so yeah,a lot of things can happen in League Edit: Its a shame you tried so hard to calculate her E damage and is it possible for her to deal 70% of the damage but you cant use your brain and imagine a real situation where one person is overfed,like Vayne in the OPs post,and the other person is underfed,also factor in a basic auto + Lux passive proc + Lichbane into that E and you'll see its very possible to do 70% of Squishy HP with just her E and passive
: Because those champions have to trade long cooldowns and lots of saftey to do that (not yasou) but because marksmen have tons of either mobility or cc the champions you listed can't ever do the one thing they are effective at and its not just marksmen its also mages and usually changing Mobility for shields but they still get to build mobility {{item:3113}}. The problem isnt the mobility in itself but that their mobility doesnt cost them lots of mana and long cooldowns. Yes marksmen did have mobility from early but Tristanna was a mage with hybrid scaling and mana gating her. Vayne only had mobility toward her enemies i dont think it was quite as large as it is now or up quite as often and marksmen didnt build {{item:3086}} much none the less 2 zeal items that was for fighters. graves has long cooldown e with mana trade offs all of those things are gone. Sivir had conditional mobility through movement speed only when she hit and killed stuff or long cooldown ult and high mana cost hit her e would cost her mana not give her mana.
Well Tanks shouldn't be in the safety of the backline,they're the frontline,of course they're trading their safety,they're trading it for the safety of the Damage Dealers. Im not really sure what's your general problem with mobility,do you think only melee should be mobile,or what,also Zeal items give almost no mobility compared to champions that have gap closing abilities,what good is +20 MS if Rengar jumps and one shots you? Or Zed uses W+R to get you half a lane away,also im not sure when you started playing,but even since season 1 ADCs would build 2 Phantom Dancers and they would both give +7% MS each i think,maybe even higher. Also you seem to not realize that champions trade certain aspects for others,For example,Vayne and Lucian are mobile but are low range,on the other hand some champs like Jhin arent that mobile but have more range and CC. Also in a game where every new champ has some mobility spell i think its ludacris to say a whole class of champions,that doesn't have any CC,doesn't even have burst,and of course is the squishiest class of all,should also lose their mobility (which not every champ even has) I mean,i get that you hate ADCs or something,but try to not be so biased,its like me saying Tanks shouldnt have CC
: Marksmen shouldnt have good mobility they sit in the safest spot in lane and every fight they shouldnt have extra mobility while mobility is inherent in their build {{item:3086}}
I know its a 9 month old thread that i accidently stumbled across,but i just cant help but ask why in the hell do you think ADCs dont need mobility,just cause they are in the "safest" spot in the teamfight doesn't mean they're actually safe from gap closers like Jarvan QER,Malphite ult,or long rage spells like Ziggs ult,Xerath skillshots,Rengar,Wukog,Jax,Yasuo Knockup + Ult etc etc etc,and they shouldn't be only Viable in a 5v5 scenario,sometimes you have to fight 2v2,1v1,3v3,and dont always have someone to peel for you,so having the extra mobility is crucial,it would also make the ADC class very boring and generic if you didnt give any marksmen Mobility,hell,why bother with the class at all,just delete all of adcs and leave Ashe there,but rework her ult so it doesnt stun and remove slow on her passive,also limit her Max hp to 10,would you be happy then? Marksmen had mobility since the earliest of them,Tristana,Vayne,Graves,Sivir etc. so there's no reason to say they shouldn't have mobility,its like saying no mage should have Stuns,even though most mages already do and always had,arent they also ranged? cant they also be at the safest spot in the fight,even more so cause they can just spam abilities and then retreat,and repeat,they dont even need to stand there and AA like Adcs do/
: > [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ef8bHTEF,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-12-06T14:01:35.505+0000) > > I always played reworked Graves in the bot lane and I think that these changes make it a bit easier again. > > His Q (which you max first) costs less mana in higher ranks and the attached 70% slow on rank 1 W will make it easier to engage on the enemy team. > > Will probably not be meta anyway, but I appreciate the changes. Respectable, I never had success with reworked graves in bot except when he was blatantly overpowered. I just loved old adc graves, the mafia skin had such a smooth AA animation. With solid abilities and a 70% AS buff dash that had it's CD lowered by auto attacking he actually had a really good right click build that was overshadowed by pen builds in later seasons. Riot reworked him because Lucian occupied a similar playstyle but I don't enjoy playing Lucian but I really liked Graves. Lucian is a slick outplay type champ but graves was a beefy bursty adc with a nice right-click fallback game. I just want my champion back rito {{sticker:sg-soraka}}
Someone understands me,Graves was my absolute favorite champ in league ever,so unfair they changed him just cause a LATTER adc had similar playstyle,why not change lucian,why even make lucian if you thought its too similar of a playstyle
: Make ADC's more varied!
Every class in the game needs more Variety,i remember playing Dota when i was younger and Heroes of Newerth a little latter,you could literally build so many different things on any of the champs,and every item felt very special and very strong,those that played know,there were items that make you Windwalk(instant invis and bonus damage on next attack,like a mini rengar ult),then there was an item that when activated gives you 2 clones of yourself,you could deal a lot of damage while also having the chance that an enemy will kill your illussions first giving you even more time to kill him. Items that gave you the ability to push or pull someone,to put them in a cyclone,to silence or stun an enemy,hell,there were items that cost health to use that you could use to kill yourself and Deny your enemy the gold. League on the other hand is more of a stat check game,its not about how you use the items,its about how many items you have,still i love LoL more,but the items really need variety
Druushk (NA)
: I have all the champions, nothing to spend BE on, except...
My real question is why the hell arent we able to buy Keys with B.E at 10 000 a piece or something,its way too much B.E For anyone to spend except those that alreay have over 100k B.E and have nothing to buy
AR URF (NA)
: Ok guys you were right.
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zEGlB4Og-why-do-adcs-and-supports-have-the-cheapest-3-item-cores-yet-they-scale-the-hardest Dont mind the post,read the comments,people already explained that other classes core builds are just as cheap plus they have added passives and benefits,unlike buying a BF sword which only gives you damage,a mage buys {{item:3802}} that gives AP Mana and free mana on a level up,most ADC items are useless untill finished and even so a Mage with just a {{item:3165}} is far stronger than an ADC with just an {{item:3031}} ,ADC power is multiplicative,its true,but still you need at least those 3 items to compete with a Mage since building just {{item:3031}} Doesnt give you any AS and % Crit is just not enough to make a lot of difference,Also not sure why are you all bitching on the forums about Crit items when strongest ADCs at the moment {{champion:81}} {{champion:21}} aren't even building crit,lol
Kaìju (NA)
: I've been saying it for a while now, ADC and damage items in general need to be more expensive. MF dominates lanes phase with just Duskblade and with Youmuus on top of that she just half shots people. And marksmen getting the IE crit on Statik is huge too. Marksmen should be rewarded for farming and getting fed but right now it's too much. Ideally you want to reward the kid that gets the fastest time but right now crit items and some lethality is more like participation ribbons. And this is coming from an ADC main that plays almost solely Ashe. Damage items are too cheap, they need to be more expensive so that a double kill doesn't equal 65 AD from BF and Pickaxe because if the lane opponent gets that and you only have one of them or even just two long swords, just short of them going afk the lane is over and you lost.
I know the feeling of going back to a lane where the opponent has a BF sword and you have just the Dagger but i dont think any damage items should be more expensive,i'd rather nerf the items to have -10 damage than to have to get 10 kills and 300 cs just to build my 3 core items,you can get longer games and less snowball in other ways not just by getting the items to be more expensive. Maybe they can increase the shutdown gold reward you get from killing that 3/0 enemy MF,so now she's 3/1 and youre 1/3 but with the bonus gold of almost one more kill,so its more or less even now.
: Would you rather have to deal with an unkillable Maokai
You getting down voted to heal is a real inside look to how many Tank mains are on this boards day and night crying. The reason behind the crying? They can no longer pick a braindead tank and stomp everyone and be literally unkillable,Maokai is one of the most cancerous champs in the game besides Yasuo,i've seen so many games where Mao got 2 kills early and was literally killing people 1v4,alone,and killing all 4
: Mmm full AD susan just got even better. Although dark harvest might simply be too much damage to get rid of....hmmm.
: ... What Jinx would ***EVER*** buy a goddamned Youmuu's??? Don't try to claim I'm misusing stats when you have her with an item she will ***never*** have.
Man relax,people that never played ADC are talking shit about things they don't know,its funny how he put Yomuus there,everyone that ever played some adc knows that Yomuus on Jinx is wasted gold and don't even get me started on how awful Fleet Footwork is compared to Warlords,which was a decent mastery but i can honestly say that for every 1 time i survived cause of Warlords i got 20 times instakilled where my sustain didn't mean shit cause i got stunned or bursted 100-0,he's just salty cause for some reason he thinks that the Precision tree should also be for mages,you dont see any ADC main yelling how Comet or Phase rush is not viable on adcs
Akumu (NA)
: Remember when ADCs were sustained damage dealers and not Assassins?
Don't cry,i've seen Lux deal 70% of enemies HP with just her E that is also AOE and longer range than an auto,this game is just all about who snowballs the first and stomps the other team
: Good think all of you played from January 2016 - june 2016 where marksmen used these 2 items and black cleaver were in every position Crit wasnt needed but could still be built. Mages may have ended up in the support slot every now and then but they werent there to burst adcs dead. This build made every other class Tanks fighters assassins unplayable because Marksmen were ranged juggernauts that could surround you and focus you before you even reached any of them and you couldnt deal with any of them even if you jumped on the coupled with the mobility and cc each of them that allowed them to self kite
Man i've been playing adcs since 2010. And except Lucian and MF no one ever built BC,you sure as hell didnt see Vayne,Twitch,Tristana or Cait with it,steraks/maw combination was usually used by Graves who is now jungle,like i said,whoever built that didn't do any damage to anyone that is full tank. I dont want to be that guy to say this but,and its a huge but,youre literally bronze 4,its not that im saying you're bad or something,but in low elos anything goes,hell,i bet teemo and yi are gods and no one knows what to do against Vayne..You get to plat/dia,and things change a lot,you get a tank or two,and a support that are all there to keep the adc alive and soak up the damage,if you're full build and waste 2 slots for Sterak/Maw instead of BT and LDR you're getting outdpsed,it doesn't matter how tanky you are if you are not getting hit,on the other hand that full build enemy Cait or whatever was popular then is shredding your own tank,ripping him to pieces,and he still cant kill her cause she heals from BT,so yeah,going steraks and maw was fun on some adcs maybe so they cant get bursted and can 1v1 better,but that build has never seen the light of any competitive play
SuperHornio (EUNE)
: Im an adc main and i hate
Only the butthurt will say its an easy role,everyone that plays it knows how hard it is just to survive sometimes,ive been killed countless times by an underfed zed,maokai,sejuani etc
: The only reason it is wasted is because they were 2 completely diffrent shields with 2 completely diffrent activation conditions but marksmen using them made them impossible to kill for other classes due to their range (and the fact that marksmen have low cooldown cc even if it is a slow or a root and mobility that no body else ever wants to mention.)
Please for the love of god try playing an adc with those two items and try killing a maokai,post a video of it,and then ill believe that those two items were ever a problem on any adc,one of those is okay for extra surviveability,but buy two and now you dont have botrk and its %hp damage and no ldr and its arpen,not saying you wouldnt be harder to kill,but in a good team comp where you have a good frontline you waste your damage and the enemy adc will outdamage and outsustain you,you can just hope to survive a diver or some burst but in the end of the day if you dont kill the enemy no matter how much hp you have you will lose
: They could always just increase Graves range to 500-525 and then let his pellets pierce through targets instead of being blocked by them. Would need a bit of number tweaking but I think it's entirely possible to make Graves an ADC again.
He still wouldn't be played bot for the same reasons quinn isn't played,the range and tank killing potential is just not enough
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HarrowR

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