ARC RAZIEL (EUNE)
: Diana @Riot Zhanos
Disagreements. For your sports analogy: Most rules and restrictions in sports are put forth to make the game as fair as possible and it depends on the sport. The question is to what extent is the success of a technique attributed to either an individual's skill or circumstances that favor this skill. Let's take Nadal as an example. Why is he so successful in RG but not as much in other majors? His strong suits are his unmatched stamina and explosiveness that allows him to chase the ball constantly and return it reliably, turning the game into a battle of attrition. He is probably the best overall Tennis player, so how does he not completely dominate hard surface and grass courts? The answer is, his playstyle doesn't work as well in those courts. Those surfaces allow the ball to retain a lot more speed and spin, and since Nadal is not the best server and doesn't have the strongest strokes, his opponents can exploit that somewhat and send some unreturnable shots his way. That is why on grass we have twice seen a below 100 rank player (Dustin Brown) obliterate Nadal's playstyle. Brown's game consists of sending the opponent far with strong openers and then dropshooting the ball so the opponent has no time to reach it, while returning strong shots with even more aggressive and flat balls. This playstyle is complimented perfectly by a grass court that allows him to pull his speedy antics and it's where he's gotten to beat Nadal. That's a style he could never pull on a clay court. Is it anyone's authority to decide which is more unfair? I think not. But it is an imbalance that affects the player's potential, and in that regard they are all unfair.That's why no type of surface has been banned so far, because they allow for multiple playstyles to shine. In the real world, you cannot nerf or buff specific players though, and changing the rules around just one very successful player would be a no-no. In games however, you have the ability to directly affect the viability and functionality of certain playstyles to tweak their fairness so that everyone can be conent. Disclaimer: I'm not implying that Diana's nerf was on the right direction since I think the changes this champ needs to become fair are a lot deeper.
Voluug13 (NA)
: < Syndra, Viktor, Azir, Taliyah < Viable {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} Also Vlad and Rumble are toplaners and barely see play vs assassins. Rumble barely qualifies as a ''mage'' in the first place.
> [{quoted}](name=Voluug13,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2019-07-17T19:20:45.413+0000) > > < Syndra, Viktor, Azir, Taliyah > > < Viable > > {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} > > Also Vlad and Rumble are toplaners and barely see play vs assassins. Rumble barely qualifies as a ''mage'' in the first place. "I don't have an actual argument so I'm just going to point my finger and laugh at something I don't comprehend" A classic. Oh wait, my tongue slipped. Actually a tired, miserable, pathetic way to engage a conversation. Rumble is officially classified as a mage by the very people that make the game you play. Also, as a champion he interacts with other champions and does damage only via his abilities. He has spammable ranged abilities that all scale with AP and is mostly immobile while building tanky. That's a battle mage right there. Also an addition. They barely see play versus assassins...because assassins are barely played :o :o :o who would have thought.
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-17T06:39:39.164+0000) > > Here's everything I don't like about this thread: > 2) You seem to not understand why assassins have lower cds and mobility in comparison to mages. Assassins are normally *melee* champs. Without gap closers Tell me 1 assassin that doesn't have a gap closer
> [{quoted}](name=Cry of the Celts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-07-17T10:55:25.695+0000) > > Tell me 1 assassin that doesn't have a gap closer What you did there is the definition of "out of context"
Velasan (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=NelsieLisnen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-07-17T12:47:11.859+0000) > > I mean there are bad mages and all, but they still have it better than ANY other class. They are viable in every god damn role right now, that should ring some bells. Isn't that because their most common predators were tanks that can absorb burst and tanks have been weaker for almost 2 seasons and only in the last couple months are starting to come back? Used to be champions like Maokai were huge anti mage picks. Alistair works too. If there are less tanks, and the tanks that exist have a harder time dealing with damage it frees up mages to rain down aoe damage, but that's what they are supposed to do.
> [{quoted}](name=Velasan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-17T18:20:35.814+0000) > > Isn't that because their most common predators were tanks that can absorb burst and tanks have been weaker for almost 2 seasons and only in the last couple months are starting to come back? > > Used to be champions like Maokai were huge anti mage picks. Alistair works too. If there are less tanks, and the tanks that exist have a harder time dealing with damage it frees up mages to rain down aoe damage, but that's what they are supposed to do. Tanks are supposed to be hard for any damage dealer to take down. When tanks are strong it takes at least 4 enemies to reliably take them out of a fight. Mages being strong is also tied to their items which are a lot stronger, have a lot better magic shred and healing mitigation choices than the corresponding stats of AD items and of course mages are naturaly better at locking down big lumbering juggernauts than any other squishy damage dealer because they can also do it safely. Reality speaks for itself rn. Mages are the best midlane picks (Azir, Zoe, Syndra, Sylas, Taliyah, Anivia, Leblanc). They sport two of the best junglers in the game (Karthus, Elise), some have transitioned to powerful supports over time (Lux, Zyra), in top lane they can also dominate (Ryze, Neeko, Rumble, Vladimir) and they can even be played as adc (Neeko, TF). And of course the strength of a certain class is relative to the strength of other classes. What's the point in saying "Oh but if that other class was buffed to kingdom come then this class would be worse". Well yeah, but we are discussing what's happening, the point of the post was that mages are in a bad spot right now, which is ridiculous.
Moody P (NA)
: Mages up to their nonsense again, eh?
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-07-17T11:00:41.016+0000) > > Mages up to their nonsense again, eh? I mean there are bad mages and all, but they still have it better than ANY other class. They are viable in every god damn role right now, that should ring some bells.
: R.I.P Control Mages
There is no coherency in your categorization. Firstly the term control mage/zoner is obsolete since most mages do the same thing, they zone. Syndra and Viktor are a lot stronger than the other picks you mention and they get picked every now and then in competitive. If it wasn't for Azir being the optimal mid mage they would be seen a lot more. Lissandra was a terror up until the spring split after which she was nerfed to the ground, it doesn't have to do with assassins being strong. You are comparing mages, the strongest overall class, with assassins, the weakest/second (?) weakest class in the game. And why not talk about control mages that dominate the game like Lux, Azir, Zilean and Taliyah. The very existence of zoning mages is what makes juggernauts nonexistent in the game. The strength of AP items right now gives mages the best shred in the game and since most juggernauts are reliant on facetanking they just get kited, CC'd and rendered useless by mages in fights. Assassins are the single most obsolete class in the game. There is literally ONE all around viable assassin right now, that is, Akali and that is primarily because of the early clock/hourglass not affecting her so much since she is a skirmishing assassin. The rest do not constitute optimal picks over any good mage in any kind if situation. Let's compare, Pool of viable Assassins: Akali, Zed (barely and only in theory, hourglass destroys him). Pool of viable Mages: Syndra, Viktor, Zilean, Lux, Azir, Taliyah, Leblanc, Zoe, Neeko, Rumble, Lissandra (albeit very situational), Ryze, Elise, Sylas, Vladimir. And now that my rant is over, I have to say, I agree with the gist of your post, just not the specific examples. It's bitterly true that some mages have been left to rot in the gutter. Ziggs, Xerath, Annie, Brand, Veigar, Vel'koz are the ones that pop up in my head immediately. And it's sad because if you strip their kits down they are centered around the same idea as those of other viable control mages. It's just that riot doesn't want to deal with refreshing their kits and numbers so that they can compete with the rest of their class. It's a problem of inter-class instability, not a problem of mages being weak as a whole.
Barkley (NA)
: Oh no! Illaoi used her ult! What do we do!?
This champ's worth is all funneled in her E ability. That's some Rito balancing right there.
: They can't reasonably nerf her any more than they already have without making her completely unplayable.
Yeah that's right, keep stomping on my feelings guys :'(
: Uh... what you describe sounds nothing like what I've heard from the developers I've had the chance to talk to. What you describe is literally assuming the worst about game design, which is what twitter and reddit would love people to believe about how these things work, but doesn't line up with any of the first and second hand accounts I've heard. No offense... but you really need to stop talking about things you don't understand. You're just propagating a negative image you have no actual evidence of that serves to do nothing but increase the unnecessary hate directed towards developers. Please stop.
Saying that a capitalist conglomerate has been organized around the end goal of making money and taking all the necessary steps to make the greatest amount of money as possible isn't an assumption my dude, it's as obvious as the frickin sun, even riot head devs have admitted that. And I've made a deliberate effort so far to distinguish between what an employed developer envisions vs how that vision is hampered by the constraints of the people that own the IPs they work on, though you have been ignoring that. My goal is not to spread hate but to elucidate how profit usually precedes pure and fair intentions in a capitalist environment. Also I don't know what you've heard so I can't really answer that point. Have you talked to anyone employed at a corp like Ubi, EA, Konami, Bethesda hell even Riot and they told you what? That they were given orders to make people happy and ignore marketability? That what they want to do creatively is never limited by the constraints put forth by their chief developers? That they feel like their talent is put to good use when they have to design the next shameless loot event? I honestly want to know because I might as well have a completely twisted view of what goes on behind those walls since what I say is deductive.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: Perfectly balanced, as it should be.
Hey, 4 is an even number. **BALANCE ACHIEVED**
: if you knew the basics of how winrate works you would know we dont just use winrates. its winrates WITH pickrates that make the stat meaningful. low winrate low pickrate overall? the champion is guarunteed weak for the current meta. low winrate high pickrate? assuming the champion is mechanically challenging, this should be normal if its ~49%. if its less then they become a candidate for a buff, although this one varies by champion. high winrate low pickrate? champion is usually too underused to make a claim for either side due to a low pool to draw stats from. but if katarina has a high winrate and pickrate, for people that DONT EVEN MAIN HER, there is a serious problem.
And your nonexistent understanding of the difference between descriptive and inferential statistics, as well as your faulty logic can be countered by a very simple observation. Ryze, Azir, Akali. All lower Win and Pick rates overall, considered leagues better than Katarina by any pro you will ask and have been meta ever since their latest iterations. On the flipside even a lot of high elo Katarina mains recognize how bad this champ is and of course she is nonexistent in pro play. At this point I'm just waiting for you to claim that pro play doesn't matter so that I can giggle.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=NelsieLisnen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hyRvBTPE,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-07-15T14:44:45.942+0000) > > Try to be reasonable in a rant post=downvotes. That was your one and only mistake dude. You are probably right. OP probably heard that she is "a low elo stomper" from a stream of some high elo scrubs smurfing with her on iron.
She is a stomper exactly because of people like the poster of this discussion. They think they can explain everything through winrates. I'd love to see them explain why she is never picked in pro play. According to u.gg Akali is Katarina's best matchup. Tell that to any serious pro and they'll die laughing in a shit puddle of their own making. Akali can continuously trade into Katarina, and keep her off the creeps for like the first 4 waves. Especially if you match her cheesy conqueror with yours. Akali can also negate Katarina's ultimate with the press of a button and then proceed to smash her with superior mobility. Any good mage can also keep her off the wave and severely punish her if she takes a dagger. Katarina's weakness comes down to her having a very streamlined and predictable engage pattern. If every player knew how to take advantage of her non existent early laning then we wouldn't be seeing these farces.
: [Champion Concept] Lyndaira, the Sand Slayer
So you are proposing another 4-dash champ. Are you looking to get death threats from Boards users?
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: LOL. Katarina is not OP in any way. Every single cc in the game cripples her. Not to mention every single matchup beside {{champion:136}} and {{champion:45}} in mid lane is a losing matchup naturally because she is melee. @op, you got 1.7k mastery on her... Play her more and see her weaknesses are very easy to exploit. EDIT: i love it that people don't have any actual counter argument to the truth so they just downvote and don't even reply to my post
Try to be reasonable in a rant post=downvotes. That was your one and only mistake dude.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=NelsieLisnen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=292drrqz,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2019-07-15T09:41:51.902+0000) > > At least they left Quinn alone. Happy thoughts I legit didn't see quinn ingame in the past month.
Well ya, she isn't anywhere near as strong as those other lane bullies that are all top tier. I usually play Quinn when someone bans Kayle to punish their hubris.
: Goodbye cancer ranged top picks
At least they left Quinn alone. Happy thoughts
: well look at the bright side at least its a free skin.They dont have to do the events .Long time ago free skins where given out once in a blue moon from events like when ufo corki back in the day.normaly years apart from the next free event or promo skin.
I think that is a faulty mindset to begin with. Riot know very well why they do these events. They want to rekindle interest in the game for people that might become disilussioned. It's not a favor on their part. It's a reenforcement technique. There are tons of ways in which they could make the grind feel more rewarding, especially when it regards only one freaking skin. But they choose the one way which is statistically more likely to let you down and make you consider buying orbs for better chances or directly buying skins. Dryad Soraka skin man. Give me some understanding here.
: It is utterly ridiculous to assume that a smart publisher is going to meddle in the affairs of a dev team like that. Put simply, they're smart enough to know that the dev team knows how to make the game. That's why they hired them. It's like if you hire an artist to paint a picture of you, you don't tell them which techniques to use or what paintbrush to use. Publishers don't micromanage devs like that. They lack the knowledge, training, and skills to do so. So they don't. I will say that sometimes publishers set deadlines that are unrealistic for games release, which is what leads to things like Anthem and Fallout 76. It's not that they told them what to do, it's that they didn't give them adequate time to do it.
The publisher, the shareholders don't really mess around with the intricacies of design, that is true. But what they care about is income, and that mindset is delivered top - down in a company through a chain-of-command hierarchy, that's how corps work. The work environment of riot is not a playground. Developers have to conform their creativity and priorities to suit the overarching mindset of creating a game ripe for mass consumption that panders to the maximum amount of people possible. That's a reality in corporate affairs, I don't understand why we have to go so far to establish that. That's why we see, with a lot of champion releases nowadays, design concepts from their early stages that were much more interesting and unique while the end product ends up looking more neutered and digestible (Kai'sa is a good example). That's not a corporate capitalist literally breathing down the neck of the designer telling them what to do, however the developing teams have tο consider addressing those game issues that are "hotter" from a perspective of popularity because they impact a greater amount of customers. Balance and game designers I'm sure, always have to get their designs approved by their direct superiors before they start to implement them. And of course, while time constraint may well be the #1 problem of development cycles, it is but one of the hurdles designers have to face before their creations see the light of day.
: If you think that the people in charge of balancing the game look at the financials before making changes, you have no understanding of how game development works. Developers work on the game because they WANT THE GAME TO BE GOOD. That is why they make balance changes. That is why they continue to work on it. The company chooses to employ those developers because the game continues to make money, yes, but it is utterly cynical to assume that Tencent goes into balance meetings and says 'hey guys, we need this champ to be strong because it makes money' . Not only would that lead to an awful game, but it would probably lead to a lot of devs quitting because every developer I've ever spoken to at any company SINCERELY wants to make the best game they can. Syndra is good because she has an instant knock-back and extremely fast burst, allowing her to somewhat handle assassins. Swain and Viktor are VERY tanky. Taliyah has global presence. Lux is mostly played as support. Karthus is beneficial post-death(so killing him isn't really effective). Vel'koz's damage is so high that it is sometimes worth picking him. Vel'koz's damage is so high that it crosses into the threshold I talked about before: so high it overcomes the risk of playing. Honestly, if Assassins and Divers weren't so strong, vel'koz would probably need a nerf.
So we're left with that Xerath and Ziggs actually need a buff/QoL change. Because Xerath also has a stun and a slow. And Ziggs has a knockback as well as a slow. Their terrible state leaves only the right tweaks to be desired. Maybe all the developers you've interacted with are good faith actors but that is beside the point. Developers have to, at the end of the day, answer to their employers who in turn have to answer to their shareholders. And guess what those care about. It's not quality, it's not creativity, it's what sells. It is utterly naive to assume that Riot's creative and balance teams will prioritize things only on the basis of good faith and balance. If they did, the champions I listed well above would have already been looked at. Developers may want to give us the best game they can but I think there are enough examples in the gaming industry that prove fair intentions on their part is definitely not the deciding factor of a game's end quality. I'm sure the developers behind Fallout 76, No Gamer's Sky, Anthem, FIFA would much rather have given us wholesome games. But we got scammed instead.
: I used to main support before I switched to mid, and having your adc not understand what the supports role or what the supports abilities are, is one of the most frustrating things to deal with. I remember being Janna, below level 6, didn't have a full heal/shield item yet, and they asked me, "why didnt you heal me" as they ran straight towards the enemy jungler. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
ΗΑΗΑΗΑ, I used to attempt to communicate with my ADCs about the specifics of my champion but experience has taught me to only speak in Questionmarkanese. They don't listen anyway.
: I do not at ALL think Riot makes balance changes for financial reasons. Literally 0% chance of that in my eyes. I think you're just underestimating how powerful low-mobility mages would have to be in order to be meta in a world where Zed/Yasuo/Ahri/Qiyana/Pyke/etc exist. I don't think that Ziggs/Xerath/etc. are much underpowered. Their damage numbers are huge. They just have no answer to the meta of assassins, hook champs, and divers that is prevalent right now... so they can't be played at high tier without becoming fodder. As a result, they either have to nerf ALL the assassins, hook champs, and divers(which I'm honestly somewhat okay with... but I doubt they're going to do) OR they need to VASTLY overbuff these long-range aoe mages. As far as Nocturne goes... if he gets strong, the game basically becomes 'at 6, someone dies without warning', which feels HORRIBLE for the enemy team. When Nocturne is strong, the enemy team has literally 0 agency. Once he hits level 6, someone dies. Full stop. There's nothing you can do about that if Nocturne is strong. He has a spellshield, a dive that goes over a screen, he stops teleports and targeted global ults(like Shen), etc. If he's strong, he makes the game HORRIBLE to play for the enemy team. He just... kills someone. Without outplay potential(because his damage is all autoattacks and not many champs can block those - and Shen certainly isn't going to be his target), the ability for allies to help(since they can't see anyways), the ability to escape(his trail gives him enormous move speed, and his fear tether will stop you from running away anyways), the ability to cc him(spellshield), or really the ability to fight back(since it's going to be 2v1 or 3v2, with Nocturne getting a significant burst of damage to start it off from his ult).
Riot is a company right? Any change they make to the state of the game is mediated by its financial sustainability. Otherwise they'd just ignore complaints and leave the game as is. The only reason they keep changing up stuff is bcs they want to ensure the game will continuously make profit. Changes that might impact a bigger playerbase will naturally be put into greater consideration. There are low-mobility mages that are actually really strong, Syndra, Taliyah, Swain, Viktor, Lux, Karthus, Vel'koz. That denominator doesn't mean a champ's going to be bad. Mages are the strongest class overall and they sport a multitude of low mobility characters. Xerath and Ziggs are in fact outliers when it comes to mages. In fact there isn't much of a difference between what a Xerath/Ziggs' kit can do and what a Vel'koz/Syndra can do but they take more skill. Their kits are very similar. Their damage numbers aren't in fact huge. What makes them seem strong is every bad laner that refuses to buy a hexdrinker item into them. And their problems could be fixed with minor kit updates that would allow for a bit more safety through their cc abilities. Nocturne having no counterplay is not a thing. Even when he was good he was not as oppressive as a Karthus. The problem was his damage was too high and no considerable effort was put into making follow-up adjustments after his nerfs that would put him in a semi-decent spot.
KuroCorbeau (EUNE)
: but the issue here is that not enough people play support, so if no autofill exists, no games can be played. The Qs would be extremely long
Autofill sometimes causes me to not get my main for like 5 games straight. Wasting 10' to queue for a better chance at my role would be ten times better than having to waste like 3 hours of my time to the same end.
KuroCorbeau (EUNE)
: I do believe that Supp is the least played roll because of the following reasons: 1. It is without a doubt the hardest role to play. When u have a bad supp, u lose bot. When u lose bot, the chance that u will also lose the whole game is over 70%. 2. Supports get none of the glory 3. A good support takes no kills, but most people prefer killing over winning. I believe that there needs to be a greater encouragement for people to play it. Autofilling them and basically forcing them to do it, is the wrong way. Maybe awarding them for doing it would encourage more play. Bonus BE would definitely make me wanna start playing as a supp, so i can afford more champs.
I'll just share my reasons for not liking supp: My favorite supp is Bard. Pretty much only have room in my heart for him. It doesn't matter that I don't get to farm, do a million damage, I don't mind that I'm short ranged and easy to harass and I couldn't give a shit about others' praise. However, most ADCs are profoundly clueless about what bard does. Most ADCs think Bard is a heal supp and that I'm supposed to save them if they feel like facetanking a thresh hook or morgana bind in a full creepwave. Like, no-one understands bard can't really heal you during a fight, not considerably at least. And most people can't discern when Bard's ult means focus the ulted enemies or focus those out of it. Bard is the only champ I can have fun with in this god forsaken role but it's so frustrating to play with bad teammates that I've quit going for supp altogether, I dodge 100% of the time nowadays.
Yenn (NA)
: I've gone 14 consecutive games without getting my primary role. This is not acceptable.
Mid main huh? I sympathize 1.000.000.000.000.000.000%. And to ad insult to injury, I'm trying to main Yasuo. When autofill protected I have, I'd guess, a 60% chance to either get secondary/banned/first picked. When on autofill I just turn to god to get through it.
: The thing is that they don't WANT a lot of these champs to be viable. Some of these champs need a redesign for exactly that reason - Rot can't make them strong without making them oppressive, so they WANT them to be on the lower end of the balance spectrum. That's why they're on the update list to begin with, in a lot of cases. Ya it sucks. But there are reasons...
I don't think these kinds of champs (kind is used pretty arbitrarily here) are inherently set to be harder to balance than more modern champs. For starters, let's call them gutter champs. So, there are many and different kinds of problems when it comes to why gutter champs aren't or can't be viable. Something like e.g. Volibear is a champ that is pretty much obsolete on all fronts. His aesthetics don't make sense anymore and his game style is not viable in this meta off keep-away mobility and cc which is here to stay. If you had to buff voli to the point of viability then yes, you would have to make him super oppressive in lane and disgustingly tanky later on. But, something like Nocturne on the other hand was pretty good a few patches ago without being super oppressive or broken, at least not in the way the Irelias and Akalis were at the same time. He was a meta jungler and his kit and meta allowed for it, with help from his numbers that were nerfed afterwards. Ziggs is another example. He has a more potent kit than a lot of mages, but riot's refusal to tweak his numbers in the right way keeps him in trash tier. IMO sometimes there's a good gameplay reason for champs to remain untouched for so long (Volibear, Fiddle), but in some other cases I think the reason is mainly financial (Xerath, Ziggs, Noc).
CPaladin (NA)
: Nocturne does not need vgu... He looks rly modern to me, and his kit was really good last year in the worlds year. I think Gambit abused him in worlds, I'm not sure
I could understand it if you said you like his kit or something like that. But, have you looked at his model? Dude looks like an enemy from a PS2 rayman game, at least to me. Definitely not nearly as imposing as his splash art wnts him to be.
Mc Raton (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=NelsieLisnen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ThssZX5E,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2019-07-11T13:21:24.703+0000) > > Tell me about it, Quinn player here. > **cries in eagle** She is playable somewhere only to get gutted next patch.. Riot favoritism at it's finest.
It's a vicious cycle I think. Riot makes champs that invite a lot of players and champs that invite a miniscule amount of players. The former are treated to more content because they bring more revenue and more obscure champs are ignored. However, that's akin to a self fulfilling prophecy. Just pay more attention to those characters and make them more healthy/viable, maybe give them an aesthetic makeover and if you do it right people will swarm to them. I mean look at Akali for god's sake. A nowhere champ that became one of the most played in pro scene and gained an obscene amount of mains. And also Galio, Nunu, Irelia, Urgot, Aatrox. Not all reworks can be success stories from a financial point of view, but it don't hurt trying.
Infernape (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Mc Raton,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ThssZX5E,comment-id=00170001,timestamp=2019-07-12T12:33:28.979+0000) > > She is playable somewhere only to get gutted next patch.. Riot favoritism at it's finest. To be fair she was overly strong in three roles. That's why she got nerfed.
Overly strong I think is taking it through the roof. She used to be strong-er because of numbers. The innate problems of her kit were and are still there. I love the Quinn playstyle but riot should either focus on her ranged assassin aspect by giving her more reliable escapes in fights or focus on her scouting ranger side by giving her more ways to control vision and poke. I don't know if a compromise between her two aspects could ever be but then again I'm no designer.
: Quinn has only been nerfed since her rework (that people didn't even want) in season 5. Not a single standalone buff.
Why did you have to tell me that? Now I'm even more depressed.
: The problem is that if they do skins for him NOW it just makes the VGU harder, since it adds to the number of skins they have to change when the VGU comes. So champs slated for full redesigns like that tend to get ignored since its just the logical use of dev time. Ya its not the best news for people who love the champ, and I get that totally... but development is all about trade-offs, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend dev/artist time now that is just going to force you to spend more later. Especially since Noct isn't that popular a champ to begin with, so it's not like that dev/artist time is going to have much of a financial turnaround either.
Agree and I comprehend the reality behind the VGU mindset and the prioritizing of cash-cow-champs. But stating that it's annoying and unfair is also an obvious thing. Even if it's not as profitable for Riot to release skins for scheduled VGUs or champs that will someday somehow be overhauled, they could at least get a single skin out or show that they care about the champs in some sort of way, some balance change, some move that is in good faith, since they are too slow in updating their old champions seeing as how this year they went back to focusing on new releases which was a bad move imo. And it's not like there aren't hundreds or thousands of mains for less popular champs that would pay for their cosmetics. I mean Noc is one thing, but other champs have it leagues worse. A moment of silence for Ziggs, Xerath, Quinn, Kog'maw, Skarner and all these other merry chaps I'm forgetting.
: I guess I’ll post again because I got downvote bombed for suggesting that my champion was not treated fairly. Nocturne’s last skin was released April of 2016, which was a 750 rp skin. The skin prior to that was released in December of 2012, eternum Nocturne. He has received 10 buffs since his inception in March of 2011, with a few being reverted and a few being met with worse nerfs, not to mention having bugs that have not been fixed in years. His biggest buff ever was 30 seconds off his ultimate cooldown at rank 1 in early season 5, down from 180 to 150. Some other notable buffs that are relatively recent are +5 damage to Q, +5 AD while on trail (ignoring the fact that he had his base AD reduced by a bunch), +0.15 AP scaling on passive. He has a 1.5% pickrate with a 47% winrate. Ten buffs in 8 years and 4 months. 3 skins released in total aside from his release skins.
I'd like to know the thought process behind those people that downvoted. Like, Noc has been ignored for way too long, that's fact. And the fact he'll be getting a VGU doesn't help any. For one, his VGU will be AFTER Voli and Fiddle so more than a year off, not that we know for sure it's going to be after these two. Secondly, just because a champ is "scheduled" for VGU doesn't mean they don't need attention. Like, Noc was really viable 10 patches ago and he still got jack shit.
: Nothing feels worse than loving a champion who isn't on Riot's favorite list
Tell me about it, Quinn player here. **cries in eagle**
Rioter Comments
Rektagon (EUW)
: I saw comments about Qiyana jungle on reddit. I guess part of the reason these champs are hard to come by is because jungle meta changes more frequently than lane metas, at least in terms of the type of viable champions.
Hmm it might as well be that. True, I didn't account for the shifts the jungle sees, which usually benefit a very specific subset of junglers. I focused my gripes on themes and execution. But both problems seem linked. Both Rek'sai and Ivern for example share this internal link to the jungle role, but one is top tier and the other is left behind. Maybe the real problem is that jungle's mechanics right now don't optimaly allow for a variety of playstyles to thrive in its environment. Most meta junglers are gankers with flexible kits. I shed a tear for my dear assassin junglers. Really want to see an upset for the jungle in the years to come.
: I recently had a game playing sona, and people would run into team fights without me and die. Its not like I could run in with them as well, since the enemy team was very intelligent. They'd focus me because of how much healing power I had at that point. There was one moment where I was with my adc trying to take down an enemy while the top laner held off the other enemies, but instead of finishing the person she was attacking, she zoomed ahead of me and ran into the team fight. She died, and I died to the enemy she could have finished. I couldn't fend for myself because I went for a full support build. When we were under tower as well, my allies would spread out instead of staying close to me, and I had to basically run back and forth to keep them alive, and they still died. That's why I play mid or top lane in ranked. Support can be very frustrating. {{sticker:sg-soraka}}
Share dude, I totally feel. Even the best support's efforts will fall flat if their teammates refuse to use their brain.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rockman (NA)
: what a savings!
Corporation: If I was a douchebag, I'd ask for 100$ for this totally normal shirt, but all I ask is a 50$. **BUY IT YOU SCROOGE**
: You're right. It's not like a single unavoidable Morg Q or Zyra E completely destroys Nunu's kit, snowball,etc. Not like hard CC doesn't destroy his R. Not like after that he's stuck with 1 sustain and 1 long duration conditional cc..... You're never going to zone with me a Nunu ^.^ Most of the champs you just mentioned destroy Nunu. My Morg and Zyra can solo Nunu. My Evelynn can solo Nunu.... My Nidalee can solo Nunu and survive with over 80% HP. https://champion.gg/champion/Nunu/Jungle? Nunu's lowest win rate average is at the start of playing him with an almost perfect exponential win rate gain curve. Nunu has the 5th highest deaths of all junglers. Yi is Nunu's #1 counter. Vi is #2.... Sejuani is his #3 counter as well..... You really choose wrong examples. Your only real point: Nunu is a 53% champ and 53% champs are safe picks.
Your morg and zyra solo Nunu. Nice way to ridicule an argument. Also his matchups differ according to site, I'm not evoking stats since those are fluid and depend on the site, not constituting any argument. On op.gg he has a better winrate against yi and goes toe to toe with sej. I didn't even mention Vi, Nidalee, are you desperate to prove something that isn't there? It's not like any initiator gets countered by Morgana or Zyra, is it? It's not like hard cc is a prime counter mechanic throughout the game, is it? Does a Yi survive when hit by long hard cc? Does a Xin Zhao? An Evelynn? An Elise? Rengar? Kha'zix? It's not like EVERY champion has counters, is it? You are using generalist arguments, like before, to talk about just one champ. Every champion is vulnerable when on cooldowns. And I don't need anyone telling me that you do worst with a champ when you start learning them, that's a given for anything. He counters most skirmishing junglers by nature. He can't duel them per se but he can assuredly kite away from them, and lock them down in teamfights. He also counters most tank junglers and that's something every expert will tell you. If you play an optimized Nunu and don't fuck around with shit like predator or AP builds, this champ becomes a great initiation machine that also provides buffs to his team. And his kit is meant to zone, your understanding of design must be flawed somewhere. He is almost all AoE and his abilities create ZONES in which enemies don"t want to stay because they'll get disabled and perish. I really don;t know why I'm still doing this. "Your only real point: Nunu is a 53% champ and 53% champs are safe picks". And that was one of my main points, so since you understand that, discussion over I'll say. Bye
: You can argue all you want, but he has several serious "right off the shelf" weaknesses: - Aiming his snowball when people know it is coming is extremely hard, and most teams know that hitting him will make it travel in a straight line. - He's one of the easiest champs to catch out and kill, even if tanky. - His snowballs are low damage, and using his bite correctly takes learning. He has an easy clear. Not denying that. But his champ interaction is pretty high skill.
You are right, I can and I will argue all I want. Most of the things you mention apply to most champs, all champs have weaknesses and everything takes learning, that doesn't make for any sort of comparison. - I already said that aiming his snowball is hard, but if you put time into navigating it you can cut off most escape routes especially in sidelanes, even easier during lane ganks. If enemies want to dodge it they have to completely interrupt their escape pathing or burn flash because of its width. So even when it doesn't land it fucks up the optimal escape route of the enemy, serving as a zoning tool to set up your or your ally's cc. And it's pretty much the only mechanicaly skill expressive tool he has. - His snowball is a zoning and cc tool that gives great mobility, asking for damage is just poor balance sense. - Hitting him doesn't interrupt his snowball channel. Hard cc and silence does - He's easy to catch and kill in what sense? He has AoE hard cc and slow, a heal and a movespeed buff plus a lot of tankiness later in the game. All the right tools to disengage or delay for your team to counter engage. What is every immobile mage, most ADCs, most squishy supports, Yi, Rengar, if Nunu is easy to catch and kill? Your warding is really vague. Every champ is easy to catch and kill if you put enough resources into it. Nunu is not going to go down being caught by any solo champion. That's already better than a lot of champs can fare. He can survive through the cc, then apply his e and w away. Even getting caught by two champs won't faze him if it's not something like a fed carry and cc support combo. That's provided they land everything on him. - His bite is just a point click burst. All you have to remember is that it deals more damage and heal to non champs and that it heals more when low health. If your standard for hard to use is this skill then I don't know if there are more than 10 skills in the game that count as easy. - His clear is not just easy, it's easy AND healthy. Ivern's clear, for example, is easy, but not healthy. That's already more than any filled jungler could ask for. The ability to gank level 2 or 3 from full health is really valuable. Especially now with the scuttle changes that make early junglers' clears less healthy. Plus Nunu counters soloQ terrors like Yi, Rengar, Karthus, Rammus, Sejuani and many more, mostly assassins. As a fill pick he requires much less experience to be effective than most jungle champs.
: Nunu has an insane learning curve to use correctly lol.
He is by far one of the easiest junglers to farm with. Probably healthiest clear in the game if you don't factor in kiting skill. If he is isolated he can escape and is pretty resilient. He can default gank from any angle because of his speed. Any immobile laner is jam on his toast. His smite-chomp combo is one of the easiest to secure objectives with. He has good tankiness which makes it less punishing if you fail gank or get counter ganked. And most important of all, he is an initiator. Low elo, people are really bad with entering teamfights unless they have a very clear directive. And Nunu does exactly that. He head-dives, spreads cc and zones, which essentially commands his team to follow up. In return you just have to practice his snowball a bit to become a sick drifter. His qualities are imo the best bargain you can get relative to his medium-low skillcap. There are other junglers that can be good for filled players but their success often relies on cheesy strats or enemies being dumb. Also Rammus could be a good addition here. Same logic, less skill, and if enemies have bad mobility you can destroy the whole map with him.
afmghost (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=NelsieLisnen,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zuuZr9pL,comment-id=001a00010000,timestamp=2019-06-27T07:23:15.706+0000) > > Because gambling is a lot more profitable when you can pass it of as "faaaaaaair", and constantly refresh your monetizable goods. That way they get to milk their big cows and their scrawny goats every week or two AND keep those that wouldn't play if the game was subscription based, while maintaining the prospect of even them paying for something every once in a while. People have no clue about their rights as consumers. They think it's unfair or unethical to demand better deals from corporations who constantly rely on striking unfavorable deals with customers to keep inflating their profits. It is our, the playerbase's fault for being too docile to request better prices and the exclusion of lootboxes en masse. That just means that the playerbase needs to wake up and hit them where it hurts: their wallets.
> [{quoted}](name=afmghost,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zuuZr9pL,comment-id=001a000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-27T12:56:03.760+0000) > > That just means that the playerbase needs to wake up and hit them where it hurts: their wallets. Bullseye. Now, hit me with a plan becase I honestly don't know how to turn such an extensively conditioned playerbase into responsible consumers.
: > [{quoted}](name=NelsieLisnen,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zuuZr9pL,comment-id=001a00000000,timestamp=2019-06-27T07:09:22.286+0000) > > Wow, is that so hard to understand? Firstly, free means lacking any cost, so the game is not "literally free" it's literally free wtf are you talking about bro. this is like saying it costs money to play tera online or warframe, it doesn't, it's literally free to enter free to play, i'm not going to pander to people with gambling issues when they could just go to a GA meeting or something and talk about it with someone there. if you want to get technical and say the PC costs fucking money then be that type of idiot i really don't care.
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zuuZr9pL,comment-id=001a000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-27T09:57:02.837+0000) > > it's literally free wtf are you talking about bro. > this is like saying it costs money to play tera online or warframe, it doesn't, it's literally free to enter free to play, i'm not going to pander to people with gambling issues when they could just go to a GA meeting or something and talk about it with someone there. > if you want to get technical and say the PC costs fucking money then be that type of idiot i really don't care. You have some learning to do. Get to it because league boards won't make a person out of you.
afmghost (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=NelsieLisnen,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zuuZr9pL,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2019-06-26T21:34:14.327+0000) > > Riot cuckboys in 3...2...1- oh wait, I was late to the party. They'll tell you it's just cosmetic and ignore the socioeconomical implications of a system that causes a legit gambling addiction while keeping the rest of the consumers out of the conversation because they have cultivated the notion of personal choice. I empathize pal, but how do you think this game is still afloat? Through people that are sensible? Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft Argument invalid. You didn't hold down the f key long enough. Seriously though, this is a computer game, not a casino. Why is there gambling?
> [{quoted}](name=afmghost,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zuuZr9pL,comment-id=001a0001,timestamp=2019-06-27T00:35:00.006+0000) > > Argument invalid. You didn't hold down the f key long enough. > Seriously though, this is a computer game, not a casino. Why is there gambling? Because gambling is a lot more profitable when you can pass it of as "faaaaaaair", and constantly refresh your monetizable goods. That way they get to milk their big cows and their scrawny goats every week or two AND keep those that wouldn't play if the game was subscription based, while maintaining the prospect of even them paying for something every once in a while. People have no clue about their rights as consumers. They think it's unfair or unethical to demand better deals from corporations who constantly rely on striking unfavorable deals with customers to keep inflating their profits. It is our, the playerbase's fault for being too docile to request better prices and the exclusion of lootboxes en masse.
: > [{quoted}](name=NelsieLisnen,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zuuZr9pL,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2019-06-26T21:34:14.327+0000) > > Riot cuckboys in 3...2...1- oh wait, I was late to the party. They'll tell you it's just cosmetic and ignore the socioeconomical implications of a system that causes a legit gambling addiction while keeping the rest of the consumers out of the conversation because they have cultivated the notion of personal choice. I empathize pal, but how do you think this game is still afloat? Through people that are sensible? Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft you don't have to interact with it though. the game is literally free you don't need a little legend. that's where your whole argument falls the fuck apart.
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zuuZr9pL,comment-id=001a0000,timestamp=2019-06-26T23:31:42.087+0000) > > you don't have to interact with it though. > the game is literally free you don't need a little legend. > that's where your whole argument falls the fuck apart. Wow, is that so hard to understand? Firstly, free means lacking any cost, so the game is not "literally free" (oh my GOD this word), it is only free on the level of access to a limited core, any level deeper is ripe with monetization. Do you have any clue what the social impact of gambling is? It is dependent exactly on the misconstrued values you portray. Gambling hides behind the notion of "free" personal choice while also employing psychological manipulations like behavioral reinforcement that make it statistically certain that people prone to gambling addiction WILL fall for it and spend excessive amounts of money on it. All the while, this system mutes people like you because your egocentric ideology is too easy to exploit, by patting you in the back with free access, which belies a certainty of lush profit. Learn to see beyond your nose.
: Riot, these lootboxes aren't making you look any better.
Riot cuckboys in 3...2...1- oh wait, I was late to the party. They'll tell you it's just cosmetic and ignore the socioeconomical implications of a system that causes a legit gambling addiction while keeping the rest of the consumers out of the conversation because they have cultivated the notion of personal choice. I empathize pal, but how do you think this game is still afloat? Through people that are sensible? Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft
stoyo8 (NA)
: being autofilled jungle is miserable
It's also about what junglers you play. I'd suggest Nunu 100% if you are not experienced. You can gank from anywhere, have a healthy clear and you are not that dependent on kiting camps. Also nunu's tankiness makes it somewhat safer to fail a gank. A well aimed snowball can at least get the laner's flash every single time and your pressure makes objective timing more forgiving. Give him a try if you haven't yet.
: The basic rules of lowelo
I played kai'sa today, got lux support. At the start, enemies chase us into the jungle and I get a double kill. In lane, lux keeps disrespecting a Xayah-Rakan combo and gets picked like 4 times. I type that she should be more careful and that we shouldn't be so aggro. She proceeds with "I don't care about this game" and goes on to camp base. I'm an advocate of learning, but stuff like that makes me think some people's brains are biologically incapable of higher thought processes.
Lemexis (EUW)
: You forgot something else : Splitpushing is trolling and never a legit tactics. If you lose the 4v5 you wholeheartedly jumped into, spam the "?" ping on the splitpusher and report him for trolling. It doesn't matter if he just took 2 turrets and 1 inhib, and if he warned you not to pick a 4v5 while he was doing it and his TP wasn't ready.
Quinn enthusiast here. That comment speaks to my soul.
Naalith (NA)
: PSA: don't buy Little Legends when TFT releases, this pricing model is scummy even by Riot standards
Riot will never quit being scum as long as there are people who defend them. I made a post the other day about how the grind system for BE is designed to coerce you to spend even more money on the game and how it's toxic and draggy. I got all kinds of riot white knights and bootlickers spamming shit like "poor Rito has a right to make moneyzzz", "you just want everything to be freeee, reeeeeee". Honestly, the extent to which people are brainwashed is scary.
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NelsieLisnen

Level 62 (EUNE)
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