Hiemdol (NA)
: I think their may be a misunderstanding between us. It sounds as though you think because Riot removed the Institute of War ie League of Legends from League anything they do with their characters in the future will not be lore. While I am familiar with the removal of the IoW I have not read anything to suggest Riot was stopping the production of lore all together. In fact as of tomorrow with the new patch a lore event will result in Gangplank receiving a new base skin due to the Burning Tides event. Both in context of just League and many MOBAs in general that is a fairly high connection between new lore and the game. So to be blunt, is what you are saying any stories told outside the context of happening in the League of Legends as an institute can not be lore?
No, I think you're the one misunderstanding. I'm fully aware Riot still has staff producing stories about characters originally created for their video game. I just refuse to let them get away with calling it lore when it has nothing whatsoever to do with the game at all. Their stories doesn't even have a setting for crying out loud! and in just a short month that fact'll have it's one year aniversary. --- Lore is expandatory material (for a (video) game specifically, or atleast I haven't heard it used pertaining to any other media), it's story elements you can't convey in the game directly, or side-stories which are only tied to the game's world and not directly a part of it. Also included are details of game elements (like the explanation behind how the Town Portal Scrolls from Diablo and Diablo II work, as well as the details in the JoJ about how Summoners and Champions sort of Mind Meld when they're summoned and this is new temporary entity is why you have to re-level skills every match). Random stories (or not-so random, but you need a setting for stories not to be random and unconnected, and Riot's new Runeterra hasn't been one for almost a year) about characters bearing the name and likeness of characters portrayed in the game doesn't count as lore if those stories don't take part in the same world as the game. Riot claimed in various roundabout terms that they were gonna stop telling the story they were telling about the game's world/setting, because they didn't feel like telling it, and that the new story (or stories as currently there's nothing connecting the various short works we have) would not factor in the game at all. Hence the new stuff can't be lore because it doesn't support the game, doesn't involve the game, or concern the game at all. Honestly I find it odd that they'd disable Gangplank because he's dead in an AU that has nothing to do with the game, after they went to such great lengths to distance their story from the game for the sake of being able to do whatever instead of telling the story they were already telling (and which was the deciding factor for me getting so much into the game personally). But calling any of the stuff they're doing now Lore, associating it with real video game stories and pretending the details within their various short whatevers concerns the game in any way shape or form is nothing but a big fat set of lies. Or if you wanna hide behind bad definitions of the term lore, then atleast it's a big fat set of deceptive marketing. I know i'd be really miffed if I discovered the game now, read the lore events and the random short stories, watched Tahm Kench's video... and then found out the game was nothing like that but was more like a decent WC3 mod and didn't either factor in the story at all, nor was factored in by the story. They're cool stories (probably, I stopped caring when I found I couldn't manage to be excited at all for the Bilgewater event ;_; ) but they're not lore. And I really wish Riot had the guts to admit it.
Hiemdol (NA)
: This confuses me. If the Burning Tides story was not lore what was it? In that story we saw the first actual progression of events from a lore perspective in years. Sure they could have put out a new block of text about Gangplanks motivations but this story, which I feel I am not mislabeling lore, actually changed his character. Not just saying he had a past, but allowing us to read his fall from power in tandem with the evolution of Graves and Twisted Fate's relationship. So what I am wondering is in what way was their story not the same as their lore? It is fair to say you did not like the event, but that is not the same as this event, and the story in particular, not being lore.
None of their new stories actually count as lore, since they actively severed their stories' connection to the game. Can't be lore for a game unless your stories happen in the same setting as the game now can you. Not that their new stories have had a full setting for the last almost-year.
: With Bilgewater wrapping up next...where do you think the lore team's headed next?
Well, it doesn't really matter which unconnected story they tell next. In about a month, the previously-lore will have been settingless for a year! I'm so exited to be able to say they took out the core setting concepts from their story and left them there for a year.
: yeah because trundle before was so interesting character. That is why now people actually play with him
I found Trundle interesting as a character. Really interesting becausewhen it comes to 'trolls' as a noteworthy named character, you hardly find the scrangly, scarred and ugly, actually normally intelligent and even cynical characterisation that often (if at all). The brutish dumb ogre clamoring for might. That's the standard more than anything exceptional. --- From what I can gather the reason they wanted to redo Trundle was that they could tell more stories with him. How long ago is that? how many more stories do we have and how many did we lose? I know we lost two, his Bio and his Judgement. How many did we gain? --- Not that there's any sort of justification for straight up removing a character and pretending it's ok because you replaced them with someone bearing the same name and sharing some descriptors. Riot just seems to get away with it the same way they got away with pretending Champions were helpless puppets to the Summoner Summoning them.
: Riot...What's with Fiora's Leg??
I've been wondering about that leg ever since I saw it. Someone made a fix for it, but it was posted in gameplay/balance (which is ironic since her current pose has no balance).
: Does anybody else think that the current GP look is just worse than prior?
The new base skin on the PBS looks absolutely nothing like Gangplank at all. Another Champion goes the way of Trundle the Cursed Troll.
: Lore blending with the game is not the same as lore interfering with the game.
See, the logic to find here. Is that for some reason when the game puts restraints on it's story it's a bad nasty thing which makes writers cry. But when the story is used to interfere with the game then it's for some reason innovative and should be praised. /sarcasm (discalimer: use of sarcasm may not be fully over) It's really just hypocrisy on the side of Riot's storytellers. They don't want to have to bother with the details of a story they either don't know very well or just straight up don't like, so they claim creative freedom and distancing the story from the game in the most counter-innovative way possible in order to get to tell the story they want using the same names and base character concepts/archetypes. Then they turn around and push the story into the game to be innovative. Y'know what was innovative? Casting a match in-setting. Was it somewhat clumsily done? maybe. Would I mind if they remade the match and just in general cleaned up some of the wonkiness and rough edges here and there? not as long as the main beats and details remained the same. Was it more honest than claiming factual errors about your own story in order to justify scrapping it? hell yes. --- To date they haven't come forth with a single Idea which wouldn't have worked in the old lore. The only problems that you could understand were gross factual errors of their part (either through their own ignorance or an attempt to decieve their consumers, pick whether you want incompetent storytellers or malicous (probably too harsh a word but I can't be bothered to find the correct one) ones?). I really ought to make a post/thread to cross-reference the JoJ and that dev-blog, just to make it more visible, and easier to sound less like a rabid fanboy. I miss the lore that made me really get into the game. For years now i've longed for a game with half as thorough gameplay/story integration, and I really loved the setting premise, as well as the general style of storytelling, the Judgements the JoJ, the VOs, even the really heartfelt though semi-amateurish acting in the Noxus vs Ionia match... All of that made it more than just a story or a collection of stories. It made it a world. Now they've made a full 180 degree turn in what kind of story they wanna tell and what they want to focus on. I don't even know if the setting premise of de/reconstructing war-scale battle magic is standing or if the rune wars went out with the IoW. Atleast I know that the thorough gameplay/story integration is out the window... except apparently for when they decide to have aspects of the game be interfered with to reflect the story they're telling at the moment. I feel somewhat cheated to be honest. And it doesn't help that they tried lying to me (or just were incompetent at their jobs) about their reasons for doing so.
Mimaropa (NA)
: In a different perspective, I think riot is OK with the lore. Riot did destroy old lore but the new lore were summoners don't exist is better. It gives me a bigger world vibe and not focused on the summoners rift. Lore does take a lot of work. Making up a good non generic story takes time. They have to brainstorm a lot and give a champion a unique personality and identity. I like what they did to miss fortune. She's not just a slutty bounty hunter,it goes deeper. The story does have a lot of plot holes but riot will eventually seal them up. It takes time. I think riot is releasing new lores by bundle in events. Its better and more organized than giving a piece one by one. After all it makes events even better and more interesting. In a business perspective, riot will release incomplete stories to keep us for wanting more. Riot gives us incentives to keep in touch with the game and making events that generate income. I do want LoL to last 15 years or more. Its like one of those TV series styles where every episode ends with a cliffhanger or new information that leaves us with questions or wanting more. I do want more about what will miss fortune do next or tf and graves are a romantic couple but that's for the next bigewater event. I expect to be more bilgewater events in a few years. I think eventually in the next few years, riot will have gotten over all the factions/countries by then and I don't want the lore to just stop there. Its not as short as waiting for the next episode of game of thrones but it is as enjoyable. I think it's just me, I have a lot of patience and I try to understand and not judge people. Anyways LoL is a FREE game, I don't expect them to earn a lot of money but they do release great stuff like Music and new champions. Just be patient or ask Tahm kench so he can satisfy your hunger for lore :3
They didn't retcon the setting. They removed it. And part fo their reasons for doing it were blatant factual errors. Don't forgive them for being awful at their job or lying to your face. And don't say it's ok to leave the setting hanging for a year. The old lore was focused on an entire world, with an ongoing plot (also, way to leave out the other Fields of Justice, shame on you). The story was centered on the game and driven by it because, hey, it's lore for a video game that's the natural state of things. The new lore where summoner's don't exist simply doesn't exist because they removed the setting and any ties to the game. And that's when it stops being lore for a video game and starts being a random collection of short stories, no matter of glossing over it on their part, lying to our faces about their own story (or just not knowing their own story in the most incompetent way possible), or being pampered by people who clearly didn't know the old lore really well at all either. None of that will change the fact that they said they were gonna do a bunch of stuff, that a bunch of stuff was now the case. And then left it there for the next almost year (and counting). The bilgewater event takes place in their new, non-lore, game-unrelated AU, and it's hyprcitical of them to let their spinoff stories influence the game in any way, because the entire premise was that tying the game and the story together was too constraining and difficult. The story they're telling, isn't League of Legends' story, it isn't the same story they were telling before in any aspect, it doesn't actually have any grand setting-wide plot holes because there is no grand setting because no such thing has been detailed yet for the last soon-gonna-be-a-year that they've had to release a pretty simple run-down of here's what's changed and here's what's the same and here's how everything happened instead. --- They're not telling the story of a world and it's major players, with a fairly unique and even somewhat innovative premise. They're telling the stories of a bunch of fantasy stereotypes doing mostly cliche fantasy things. The rebirth of Shurima is a really cool story to set in a world where you are provide ongoing tidbits about the state of politics. It's rather shallow as the end of a story about raiding a tomb and unleashing evils (and a good or two) sealed in a can in the most cliche manner possible. And for all you might cry and Riot's storytellers might claim that there's gonna be more Shurima stuff coming and that last year's even was just the beginning of Shurima's story. It's been almost a year, which is a fairly long time to ask someone to wait for a story to move on from its prologue. It's also a really long time to take in laying down some really basic setting details (like what about the rune wars? why isn't Valoran blown up by the next one when the IoW and the LoL isn't created to prevent that from happening? What about Noxus' invasion of Ionia, how does that happen when they're not safe from Demacia invading them? How does it play out when Ionia can't halt it by joining the League? Did Kalamanda happen? How did it happen? or did it not happen and Skarner is just a generic monster scorpion tomb guardian now?) There's a lot of questions which is not something they can take their sweet time telling through youtube shorts and huge yearly events. A lot of these things are stuff they had to answer right away to have the right to a tiny shred of respect from their customers, and it's been a year (almost). And the most important thing to answer after retconing the League out of it's own lore: What is the League of Legends? And that is the one thing i'm confident won't be answered for years until they forget some really simple fact about their story (or just no longer like it) or just simply wanna tell a different one and decide to scrap everything and start over with a new 180 turn in direction. I'm sure we'll get more stories from Riot Games. Just as i'm sure that none of them will be relevant to their game, even if they'll use some of the same characters in non-game incarnations. It'll not be lore. Lore is something which expands on and explores facets of the world belonging to a video game. The new story, thoroughly disconnected from the game in an attempt to act more professionally, is not Lore. Anyone saying otherwise is (intentionally or not) decieving you. --- For what it's worth, what little of the new story material i've read i've thoroughly enjoyed. Sion's little segment, Kalista's video, the Harrowing video, Bard's champion reveal video, Ekko's champion reveal video, Ekko's random comic, Tahm Kench's champion reveal video, and even what little of the Bligewater event stuff I could be bothered to read before losing interest and moving on to a real fantasy book i'm currently reading. I've liked it all, and loved some of it. Sion's stuff, Ekko's video and Tahm's Video are really really great. They're just meaningless out of their own little existance because there's no setting to tie them to, and no actual connection to the game they're created for. I've stopped playing league now, finally (atl east trying to), because while I love playing, I hate the game. I was bait-and-switched, came for the story and great character design, but stayed mostly because I realised the story was excactly what I'd been dreaming for in a video game story... except much more in-depthly so. And then they took that away for mostly flimsy and some objectively bad/wrong reasons, and it's caused me so much mental stress and sleep-rythm disruption over the last almost year. I hate the game now, and I hate it's creators. Most of all I hate the storytellers, not as people (I'm sure they're great people, at least that's my impression from the red posts i've seen), but as professionals. Because their work is causing me pain, stress and nothing else. There's so many other things I could do with my time. Like read up on the lore of a game I'l be playing in for the next year, a game with actual setting. --- P.S. This is why you shouldn't make long replies at me. Also why I shouldn't be replying in them iddle of the night. P.P.S. To any reds: At least give Factions a thorough community spotlight before you remove the rest of the lore, it's well deserved. More so than any other community project I can think of, because this is lore-continuation(so fan-art and fan-fiction I guess), game-mode and community engagement all in one.
: Tristana appears to be masturbating when you spam Taunt quickly
Tristana's not the only one -.- It's really awful.
: How does the lore move forward from here?
Before the story they're telling can move anywhere but random disconneced short (various lengths of relatively short) fiction. They need to establish the new setting, giving us major core details like what is the world like, what has prevented it being blown up by a new runewar without the League in place, what happened instead of all the stuff that happened in the lore and where the heck in the timeline even are we? Y'know basic stuff they should've told us the same month as they announced the forthcoming retcon, or atleast the same calendar year. Offhandedly claiming that everything is the same except what they took out (ie. 'everything') is not good enough.
: So have we forgiven the lore team?
Even with the bligewater story event, they still haven't given us a basic introduction to the new setting, explaining all the things they claimed they were gonna retcon almost a year ago. Y'know, all those core setting details they conveniently claimed flasehoods about to justify telling a completely different story instead of making lore for their game. Don't forgive them for throwing away the setting based on factual errors about their own lore just because the new unrelated stuff they're doing is high production value. They still don't have a setting, because they haven't detailed the new core elements to replace the old ones which held it together. They haven't actually retconned anything at a large scale. They just claim to have done so and people go along with them, allowing them to get away with claiming flasehoods of their own lore and not follow up on their claims. If they've *retconned* the Summoners, The IoW, the game itself, and the non-lore setting doesn't include those, then what does it include? What about the world? How was a new rune war prevented? or wasn't it, and why hasn't that blown the setting up yet? Claiming that "everything's the same except the setting details we can't be bothered to get a basic grasp of" isn't retconning. You have to actually say what's happened instead of a (in theory atleast) neutral institution being set up to police MMD (Magic of Mass Destruction) usage, and provide an alternative conflict resolution method to potentially world-ending wars. Just saying everything's different now isn't enough. You've gotta say how everything's different. So far all they've done is expand on the old lore, remove a lot of stuff, and rework some of the more out there champions. But they haven't actually gone contrary to their setting. They just stopped referencing it. So I atleast don't forgve them for not giving us closure. (I also don't forgive them from doing the stupid "retcon" thing in the first place, because League's Lore is what i've been wanting out of a game the last 6-ish years, but that's just me. I also feel they really ought to give Factions a community spotlight.) We should definatively not forgive them for not knowing their own lore, and basing major shifts in the direction of storytelling on easily recognized factual errors about their own story (AKA. Either they lied us straight in the face or they're utterly incompetent at their job).
: Is Gangplank's death cannon?
It's canon for the AU. Nothing to do with the game expect their arbitrary disabling of him.
: Why is everyone so upset about the silly "GP is disabled" thing. It's a joke. They're not deleting him or anything. Is there a huge pile of SUPER HARDCORE Gangplank players out there who utterly REFUSE to play anyone else for a day or so? I saw it... I laughed... I played a different champ.... the end. Don't get your panties in a bunch. The lore for this event was VERY good by riot standards... let's not discourage them from putting out more stuff of this caliber.
I'm upset because of their inconsistency, their "We're gonna rework the story and leave it hanging for almost a year, in order to separate it from the game. But we're still gonna pretend like they're connected" attitude. They can have either a game with high-integrative lore with gameplay impacting stories and story driving gameplay. Or they can have a settingless bunch of stories. Not bound to the game. Not both. If your story isn't gonna be restricted by the game it's supposedly the story of, then don't restrict the game based on a story it doesn't feature in.
kolpy99 (NA)
: When lore controls a game
What I don't get is why they go to such great lengths to distance the lore from the game and then do this. What does GP dying in a game-unrelated AU have to do with him being able to Summon or not in League of Legends?
Impetual (NA)
: @Riot, How Should Players Interpret LoL's Original Lore?
Well, they said they were gonna retcon the entire setting (read toss it out and replace it with something entirely different, Trundle style). Then we didn't hear anything about the new setting for most of a year. We still haven't.
KYU22 (NA)
: GP rework doesn't seem to make him much stronger
They removed so much of his play just by changing one ability. I find it kind of sad to be honest, but at least his new gameplay can be kind of fun. I'm gonna miss Pistolplank though. {{item:3031}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3142}} was silly but fun.
: GP does laugh during his ult.
New laugh can't compare in any way to the old one. The old one was way more in line with MF's ult laugh. New one is so very lackluster, like it's an afterthought that they even put it in there.
: Why aren't PD and Shyv built together on Yasuo?
As others have said there's two simple reasons. 1) AS+Crit without lots of AD is not very worthwhile, especially on Yasuo who deals reduced crit damage. 2) You overcap your crit chance just with those two items, and if you get both you're guaranteed to need Infinity Edge to boost your crits higher. If you really really want more attack speed and crit then build a Zeal into Trinity Force. If you have Shiv, Phantom Dancer adds nothing because you need IE and that gives you all the crit you need, and there are better options for attack speed/movespeed. Even PD's collision ignoring passive is less useful on Yasuo because of his infinite dashes.
: Fiora rework breakdown
The main problem I have with her ult is that to reliably proc the AoE heal you need to be ahead, and the AoE healing field is only really useful when you're behind. Ideally of course, if you're behind you can proc the passive 4 times and then you have a rallying point where your team is stronger than the opposition because of absurd healing. However, if you're behind it's hard to get the benefit because you're squishy by nature making it harder to proc when you're behind (relegating you to being a melee assassin without a solid ability to initiate). If you're ahead, as soon as your team gets a kill or two, the enemy will start scattering, fleeing/regrouping rather than staying and fighting a stronger opposition, so you won't be fighting in the area where you have the advantage anyway. In a situation where your team is weaker, an AoE healing field can turn it around and create a massive advantage for your side as you get a strong advantage in that area. In a situation where your team is stronger, by the time the healing field comes up you'll generally have them on the run anyway so staying to heal will mean giving up momentum. Both situations are problematic, and that is before touching upon situations where the target dies only after they manage to retreat away from the battlefield anyway, so the healing area is useless. It's also problematic that the boost you get from your ult combat-wise is really not very strong compared to most steroids. It adds relatively little, giving you three extra vital zones to hit, but since they refresh quickly anyway the benefit there is relatively low unless you're already on top of your target and can dance effectively with your new Q to hit all 4 vitals in 2-3 seconds. The only real upfront benefit, is the passive movement speed you get when you're close to the target. Everything else is locked away until you get in a rapid series of hits. They only need to kite you for 8 seconds to make your ult wasted by the way. --- I love the concept of a sort of finishing move series of strikes which ramps slightly up with each movement in a signature duel-ender series of moves. Not to mention that the Grand Duelist's ultimate is a big sign for the whole team to agressively butt in and focus fire. It's not Fiora's moment to shine, it's a callsign for her team to come in and help her. It's really bad thematically, a focus fire benefit has no place on a duelist. Her ult should emphasise her own power to defeat her opponents, not her team's ability to swarm one unlucky target. Not to mention it's a tool best used on squishy mages, supports in particular, since the faster and easier the kill the earlier you get the heal-zone... I'd imagine her ultimate ability be something that aids *her* in taking out big contenders, other duelists, bruisers and tanks, not something which rewards her team for ganking the nearest squishy. --- The most immediate fix if they wanna keep the "healing-on-kill-because-victory/adrenaline rush/inspiration" gimmick, is to make it an AoE buff around **Fiora** instead of a field centered around her target. So that it's rewarding even when you overwhelm the enemy and chase them two screens away from the initial fight.
: Interesting opinion. My take on that leg was that she had placed her foot at the hand rail that we see to her right. I also don't think she is suppossed to be fighting in that image, but rather showcasing her balance and agility by catching that rose petal with her blade.
Yeah, that's one assumption, and it would be really cool if we could see it. my problem is that since I can't see it, and since the background is so indistinct from Fiora herself (it really does remind me of a character image layered over a background, Visual Novel style) the way the perspective works, I can't see where the handrail would go, neither can i really assume anything of how her foot goes. I do admit that a foot on the handrail would be pretty damn fitting for her.
: > [{quoted}](name=NorthernDruid,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=h33cE9LN,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-07-26T10:40:54.911+0000) > > What's that leg even doing? is it just jutting straight out or something? that would be graceful on a ballerina dancer maybe. > > As it is it just looks weird and unbalances her stance. Best edit i've seen is one which just moves it straight down so she's standing in a more classic fencer pose, straight legs straigh(ish) back with a sword pointed at you. > > Not weirdly dancing around and waving a sword in your general direction. > > here's the thread with the edit. Moving that leg down makes all the difference in making her look like a duelist and not a random with a sword from a mediocre VN. > > http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2R07FpWq-my-take-on-fioras-new-splash "Weirdly dancing around" is what fencers do. In fact, her new passive is "duelist's dance". Even though it also looks good with her legs down, I'd rather see her in action (in the middle of a fight) rather than posing for the camera.
If she's supposed to be in the middle of a fight, then maybe showing a full body shot and not just knees up would work, so it's very possible to see what the hell that leg is accomplishing. Fencers may dance around, but they don't do the ballerina thing with legs weirdly jutting out to the side. They do the thing with legs behind each other so they have a slimmer profile which is harder to hit. It really looks like a generic pose picked for the ease of drawing that particular general stance with those cutoff points than a concious decision.
: question: are you using barrels? because if you are then you shouldn't have too many problems. I think the passive should only apply to champions though. I don't like using it accidentally last hitting when i really want to put it on my enemy.
Champions, Monsters and buildings. Not minions.
: > [{quoted}](name=NorthernDruid,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=h33cE9LN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-07-26T03:06:23.084+0000) > > First step is to fix that godawful leg in the splash, and make her stand on both feet instead of stumble like a drunk. She looks more graceful that way. The thigh of that leg, though, is weird looking.
What's that leg even doing? is it just jutting straight out or something? that would be graceful on a ballerina dancer maybe. As it is it just looks weird and unbalances her stance. Best edit i've seen is one which just moves it straight down so she's standing in a more classic fencer pose, straight legs straigh(ish) back with a sword pointed at you. Not weirdly dancing around and waving a sword in your general direction. here's the thread with the edit. Moving that leg down makes all the difference in making her look like a duelist and not a random with a sword from a mediocre VN. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2R07FpWq-my-take-on-fioras-new-splash
Mubbin (NA)
: Thank you very much for listening to us about Fiora's hair, Riot.
First step is to fix that godawful leg in the splash, and make her stand on both feet instead of stumble like a drunk.
: The real problem with the art team
As a whole they also need to make sure they have a grip on who their characters are (not to mention what their story actually is) instead of going off of their own hunch and wishes. Fiora isn't a teenager stumbling around and waving a random sword in your face. She's a precise and skilled duelist, this needs to be reflected in her splash. They need to stop changing things for the sake of changing them, make updates updates and not from-scratch projects. And if something's functioning, leave it as such (at least when it comes to the art side). And when they're making changes make sure they're good changes and not stupid ones like Kayle, Vayne, Lee Sin, Janna and Fiora's splash arts (probably a few others i forgot as well, but quite a few of the updated splashes have been really good (Shen!) or at least acceptable (Anivia, Ezreal)). In their eagerness to upgrade everything to the latest and highest and modernest standards, they forget to pause and examine whether something is actually good in and of itself regardless of style. The old splashes for Vayne and Kayle for instance, were really good works isolated from League. Same with Fiora, that's a really good image. But if they're not generically modern enough it has to go apparently. I really wish they'd do more discussion around and tke more input during the process of, re-presenting a champion. Such as when there's a visual/lore(well, random AU story details) update, let us be in on it and tell you which details we feel detract from the character, what details we feel need to be emphasised more. I'm sure I'm not the only one for whom it can be really small stuff, a recall animation, a pointlessly stupidly lifted leg, a bland hat and non-flaring coat, a couple of distasteful animations. Which really turn me off from liking the whole, because while everything else is great, those small details are otherwise what turns you from thinking something is good to considering it great, and when they're then changed to something you don't like, or even detest, then it goes from good to mediocre instead. Not that I don't have big peeves either, like the general compositions for Vayne, Kayle and Lee Sin. Some of League's old splashes are really, really iconic. And that style can be something which draws you in (I especially miss the old Ezreal splash, as well as Kayle's old one, the new ones don't do them justice in the same way). Removing some of the points which draws people in isn't only likely to make them leave your game, it's likely (because the gameplay is addictive and only small parts are destroyed at a time, and most of it's still well-functioning) that they'll stay around and spread negativety about the subject. Because we don't want the things that draw us into the game to go away, because then we're left with a shallow addictive experience we can't break loose from. Whether it's character/art design, a particular set of VOs or a particular champion, or even the game's (now replaced with random stories) lore. Changing these kinds of things, which presents the game and it's components to the player, breaks the experience much more than any alteration of the gameplay. After all, when you unlock a champion or a skin, you're supposed to have acess to them permanently right? Tell that to the people who unlocked Trundle the Cursed Troll. Tell that to the people who unlocked Gangplank for his visuals, or Fiora, or Karma, or anyone. Now visual updates are good. Sometimes, for some reasons visual reworks might be needed. But when they are, make sure we're in on it all the way. Because it's our game much more than it is yours. You only make it, we make it happen. We make the cosplays, and I don't want my hard work at making this costume invalidated by a (percievedly) corporate decision to redo Taric and give him a drastically different look. If it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. Fiora wasn't broke, Gangplank wasn't broke, Vayne, Kayle, Lee Sin, Ezreal, Janna, their splashes were great, certainly not anything which needed exchanging for something entirely different. And when something is broke, like Poppy or Yorick. Or Taric? Evelynn? Give the people you're fixing it for their good say and input on what it should be like. 'Cause if Evelynn is changed into something entirely different from before, if she's turned into something she wasn't close to before, and you shoved it to live after a mass of complaints on it... Why should I keep playing her? Why should I keep playing this game? Because I'm addicted to the gameplay? Is that a good reason to keep playing? I love playing League, but I hate the entire thing, because the things I started playing for are the things that are being taken out. Great gameplay, awful management. Don't change stuff out for the sake of being modern. If you want to turn League into a completely different game, the go make a new game. And let me have what I came for, what you offered me. (Disclaimer: Written at ~5 AM, coherence not guaranteed, especially not towards the end)
Wolfeur (EUW)
: Stop saying Riot doesn't listen
Now if only they implement some fixes to her pose so she's standing and not stumbling. that lifted leg is really really destroying the rest of it.
: Well outraged Fiora players , you got what you wanted
Cool, now when is she gonna get a real pose and when is her run animation gonna be running and not skipping. Fiora's new running animation is the silliest thing in league. Only rivaled by her new godawful unbalanced pos in the splash.
: Riot gave Fiora her bangs back in her splash
Now they just need to fix her pose. Like not bending her spine like that, and standing stably on both her legs instead of stumbling on one like a drunk.
: Gangplank's new voice over isn't fun anymore, and here's why that's a problem
Well said. I feel like ever since that devblog where they shut down the game's lore to do game-unrelated stories, they've just been trying too hard. Like they're big now so they've gotta do things right. Their pirate captain has to rival Blackbeard, their world has to be the most mysterious and mystery filled, they're too good for a story belonging to a videogame anymore, they've moved on to real media like comic books and youtube shorts. Same with all the ability reworks and new champion kits really, not that they aren't overall good, but... they're so *gimmicky* in a way. I love tossing down Barrel's as Gangplank, but there was something simple and easy in boosting everyone's morale and racing around fast. Critplank used to work because you already had naturally boosted AD and movespeed, and could steroid both of them. Not because you crit the barrel and then the entire minionwave explodes and you can buy the special ult upgrade with your special plunder coins. Same with Fiora, her kit may have been hard to balance, but at least it was easy to evaluate and had straightforward uses. I very much feel like every recent new champion and rework, when compared to older ones, have more mechanics and less straightforward gameplay. Just like I feel their new stories are just trying to play it up big but fails to deliver the same immersion as the lore did. There's just better settings out there to read about than Runeterra, better stories to read about than the ones I find here. I could read all that text, or I could read up on the Eberron setting, which will actually be relevant to a game I'll be playing in come fall. It just feels too much like they're trying to do this massive overhaul on League until it's a completely different game, and if they wanted to do that they should really just be making an entirely new game instead of ripping out stuff that was there from before. A lot of the new splash arts also give me this feel of "Now we're being proffesional, look at this generic dynamic action pose we have to prove it!" Not that some of the new stuff they're doing isn't also really great and helps make League better. But changing their style so much (a full 180 degree turn in terms of what kind of story they're telling), changing champions so much as to actually replace them outright.. It's not very good and doesn't speak well for Riot's integrity, because what'll happen in a few years when this all seems out of date, are we then going to go into another phase of everything being slowly choked out and replaced with something new? It's just so pointless, like the Fiora visual update, done for the sake of showing off more so than Fiora needing a visual update. If they'd tried to polish and really work with what they had instead of change everything for the sake of being more modern and proffesional, then maybe they'd have a more even product. But whenever something's not the way they'd have done it if they were gonna start work on it tomorrow, they scrap the entirety of the idea and start from scratch on it and everything related. When will large companies realise that people don't want lots of new innovations and drastic changes and modernisation. They want what they came for, and they want that experience expanded upon and polished. If that means hanging on to some campy VO lines, or a story made for a video game and not for a series of novels, then so be it. Better to excecute something of medium quality properly, than strive hard to turn it into high quality, bit by tiny bit. --- Like seriously, if they're gonna stop doing lore for the game, change all the playable characters out for other characters with the same name, and revamp every single aspect of the gameplay until only a few themes are left behind as artifacts (until they also go the way of Karma's Shield Bomb). Then why not just start over with an actual new game, instead of trying to warp League into being that game. --- It's pretty clear that either way, Riot does not have a good connection with how their characters are percieved by the players. Then again, they also didn't know the story they were telling well enough to avoid basing major decisions in the direction of their storytelling on basic factual errors. So I don't know why we should expect anything of the sort.
: Upvote if you want the new Irelia splash immediately.
Agressive like her *new* playstyle? How the hell do you play Irelia and not be agressive?
Vekkna (NA)
: Ranked Minimap Is an Eyesore (Literally), Because Science
The new HUD's minimap has too low contrast between ground and jungle blocks. Which makes it harder to take in on a glance. The old one has yellow ground and green blocks, while the new one has builsh-teal ground and teal-ish blue blocks.
: My take on the Fiora splash
There was an edit posted in the gameplay which just roughly move her left leg do that she was standing properly instead of stmbling like she's drunk. Made all the difference.
: The other possible Fiora VU we could have had
... We could've had this? Outside of the stripe not being quite distinct enough this is perfect. Still looks like a bit of Blizzard Pauldron Syndrome (BPS for short) but the way the cape is attatched it actually works.
Artits (EUNE)
: My take on Fiora's new splash.
That... fixes it. Atleast for me. I'm still gonna like the old one better, but for me the leg not being lifted for no reason other than general posing makes all the difference. With her legs straight she looks much more poised to move rather than for some reason stumbling around and vaguely pointing a sword in some direction. She looks dignified, like an aristocrat, ready to slice you up for some insult you just slung at her. In the current proposal from riot she just looks so random. I can recognize Fiora in your edit, even if her style is completely changed and she has those oversized stupid pauldrons. I can't recognize her in Riot's thingy. I can't even recognize that as a serious attempt at a fencer character.
: Another thread complaining about Fiora's visual "upgrade"
All of them? Her serious yet casual "you're not really worth my time" expression, the red stripe, the slim and agile outfit, the parrying dagger held behind her back. She looks as dynamic as she is ingame, and she doesn't have blizzard worthy pauldrons.
: Hey look, somebody else fixed it for you already, Riot.
Nice. Really nice. Still has that awful pose though, but that's Riot's fault I guess.
Vera (NA)
: ---> [POLL] <--- Old Fiora v. New Fiora Visuals
Old. No question. Let the royal guard have the new one's hat though. I might be a sucker for that style of hat <.<
: http://www.maidofheaven.com/maid_assets/extras/joanpiffard.jpg http://mentalfloss.com/sites/default/legacy/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/Ingres---Joan-of-Arc.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/John_Everett_Millais_-_Joan_of_Arc.jpg http://i.imgur.com/HfwCbLK.jpg
Ok, anyone with the style of weaponry modern fencing is based on?
NemeBro (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=NorthernDruid,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ofXJ5nqV,comment-id=002d,timestamp=2015-07-22T01:02:51.774+0000) > > Why does the new one have that "show of my curves" pose as opposed to a more martial one? Well, the old one has the same sort of fanservicey pose, to be fair. It's just one of those things I accept from Riot games.
I disagree really, the forward leaning angle of her torso as well as the parrying dagger makes all the difference to me. The new splash has this incredibly ugly backwards leaning pose with the lifted leg thrown in for no good reason. Not that it's not fanservicy to some degree, but the new one is so much worse.
: fioras new base kit looks awesome, but that ult makes no sense.
I like the thematicness of "when she wins the grand duel this inspires her team because it's just that awesome". I don't feel like "after her opponent dies, stand inside the magic circle to be healed" fills this theme though. I'd much rather see her shave a few seconds off of everyone's basic abilities, enough to guarantee she herself is still in the fight but not too powerful a boost to everyone else.
: She has a lot of risk in trying to get into the fight, so she gets a reward for killing the target She inspires her allies by showing her amazing dueling prowess and poise
and then they... get slowly healed as long as they stay within the magic circle spawned by the death of her opponent?
: Yeah, this is the thematic tie-in that we were going for. Fiora's duel, or 'Grand Challenge,' is a game defining moment for everyone, not just the combatants. Fiora's team should care about whether or not she's successful and be able to join in the celebration if she is. Gameplay wise, adding reasons for Fiora's team to care about her in important. Selfish champions can lead to degenerate teamplay experiences, whether they are winning _or_ losing. Accordingly, by adding some team utility to her personal challenges, we can make Fiora a strong 1-on-1 duelist while keeping her team invested in her success. Heal might feel weird here, and I totally get that, but it was the most fitting tool in our box.
That thematic tie in makes almost sense, though something a bit more... connected would probably suit it a lot better. An AoE area heal... why do my and my friends get magically healed in this area around the enemy i just killed? and how? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a transitory buff to all nearby allies? Even if it's a buff to their health regen, the ground targeted AoE just seems out of style for an inspiration effect.
: "Fiora Doesn't Look Like A Fencer"
OK... now where's the pics of women who did fencing not as a sport but as a way of fighting and killing people?
333lom (EUNE)
: Why the hell are people downvoting you? I agree with your observation, yes she does look like a fencer now.
Sure, she might look more like a sports-fencer.
Krizalid (EUW)
: Actually it's not too late
It's the shoulderpads which really does it. They're just so hillariously bulky.
FelRain (NA)
: Riot, Fiora's Visual makes no sense.
I like the new hat atleast, but I might be biased towards that style of hat &lt;.&lt;
Tendrian (EUW)
: The new Fiora splash looks like the old one done by a less talented artist.
Why does the new one have that "show of my curves" pose as opposed to a more martial one?
: > [{quoted}](name=NorthernDruid,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=d94Akswz,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-07-21T00:29:47.043+0000) > > Their new stories doesn't factor the game,8 because they got details of the lore wrong apparently), why on earth should the game change to accomodate a story it doesn't feature in? Because it can showcase the setting, rather than be in the setting. MOBA gameplay is a dumb thing to base your setting around anyways.
And? The story exists for the game, not the other way around. Or atleast that's how it should be, that's how it used to be, that's the natural state of the *lore* for a video game. League of Legends is a video game after all, and there's compelling stories to tell using that specific medium. The game should be kept in the center of things, and the old setting used that really well to have an involved world with more stuff going on than merely the gameplay, but the important highlights of the story revolved around the League of Legends because that's what the story is made for. Nothing is a dumb thing to base your setting around, Zelda has a setting built around the gameplay of a dungeon crawler action/adventure. Lord of the Rings has a setting built up around made-up languages, 'cause the linguist who made them wanted to have someone speak those languages. Any arena-style gameplay is easy to ubild a setting around, and arena-style games really have potential for it, because you can flesh out where the arena fighters come from, their motivations, their out-of-arena interactions, and then you can structure stuff around the people who care about the results of the battles in the arena. Y'know, politics and all that. There's lots of things which spring out from the basic concept of "there are people, repeatedly fighting in an arena for some reason". You just ask the obvious questions (why are they fighting in an arena to begin with, who cares about the arena, why do they care, and all other manners of questions like that) and find answers. "Why is the League of Legends even a thing, why don't the various factions just wage war with all that powerful magic instead? Because that would likely lead to the end of the world!" As a thing to build your setting around, it gives a good enough starting point to develop any part of the setting you need to. Having a diverse base for your setting to me seems smart. Atleast it's better than having assorted characters and vague areas with no relation to each other. And in my opinion, having a setting is (almost) always better than not having one. And currently, they don't have a setting. Because they cut out the parts of the setting which made it not be blown up by WMD scale war magic. And then didn't put anything back in. So again, why should the game be changed to accomodate their random unrelated stories? There's no setting to even showcase, and even if it were, that setting doesn't support the game which is supposed to be in focus (and yeah, as soon as they put a League of Legends logo in there, they put the game in focus). So what good reason is there to tear down both the game and it's story, when they've already established they don't want the game in their new stories.
: Summoners > Azir
It wasn't really the character incompatibility that made them drop the entire setting, at least not only that, one of the main factors was getting core setting details wrong. Like grossly wrong. As in what they claimed summoners were and how they interacted with champions is nothing like how it actually was.
: > [{quoted}](name=NorthernDruid,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=d94Akswz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-20T08:09:21.757+0000) > > I say they shouldn't touch it. If the game's gonna be separate from the stories they tell, then let it keep the story it has. I'm fine with Factions being the only development of that story, but I'd vastly prefer if narrative kept their AU out of the game they're no longer telling a story for. This makes no sense at all.
Their new stories doesn't factor the game, because they got details of the lore wrong apparently), why on earth should the game change to accomodate a story it doesn't feature in?
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