Yes please. It would be one of the best additions.

> [{quoted}](name=StormBladeMaster,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=71Hv2WvL,comment-id=000c00010000,timestamp=2019-12-11T17:57:11.329+0000) > > ?? So Vladimir don't gain HP from his passive by building AP or he don't gain AP by building health ? He is staying at base HP all the game ? Sorry i didn't know... > > Vladimir is way tankier than Camille. Tell me why the Vlad always have 3000-4000 HP when with Camille i'm struggling to have 2500 Hp at least. > > Vlad can hard poke Camille and free regen with no mana cost. > > > Camille build don't give as much as HP as Vlad. Trinity is expensive and only give 300 HP. I have to farm while being poked and Vladimir can farm easily and get more PO than me. > > > Vlad may not be a frontliner but he could do it. He would be a better frontliner than Camille. He is dam tanky with his stupid regen. I don't see what the point of picking Darius when you have Vlad who can do the same job but in ranged. Well i thought you were talking about their base stats. As a whole yes vlad is way more tanky than camille. However that happens because of different roles. Camille is a diver while vladimir is a battlemage. Battlemages (Supposedly) thrive in the fray. Plus, thats vlad's niche. To be a rather beefy mage. As for the point picking darius over vlad, darius will tank for you. Vlad wont. In fact no vlad in the whole last season has ever been in the frontline. All they do is to wait to burst someone.

A small correction. In no world vladimir is more tanky than camille. At lvl 1 camille has higher base stats. This persists throughout all lvls. With the exception at lvl 6 where vlad gains a bit more hp per lvl than camille. But other than that camille has higher base stats. And vlad WONT take the place of a darius or a tank. He isnt meant to be on the frontline. He will be blow (or be forced to use his defensive shit which have a noticable cd).

> If you play into you lose. Ha. Good one. Morde winning over a duelist. Yeah sure. Clip or it never happened. > There is not one single thing you can do that game to beat him if he's with 5 kills of you. This applies to most champs. Its called snowball. > into any melee without any ranged abilities ( probably wins this match up too cuz why balance the game!). Not really. Mordekaiser wins because teemo doenst have many tools to deal with him. All he can do is slow him. Which he can avoid to a certain degree with his ulti.

But they are gated behind mana. The problem lies with the numbers themselves. I mean ffs, cass' s spells cost 50 70 50 at rank 1. At rank 5 these increase to 90 110 and *chuckles* e remains 50. Her bread and butter spell, the one that you cant dodge and deals the most dmg in her kit (yeah yeah it requires multiple casts but you get my meaning) costs a measly 50. Sure you can nerf the mana items give but you better give mages a way to regain mana (and this time without killing themselves im look at you xerath). Because if what you say comes true (less overall mana in the items) then mages would have no way to outpush assassin during the laning phase or even come close remotely to stop them from shoving (which btw chances are they are rushing zhonyas). And by late game adcs will be able to provide more efficient wave clear than mages, since mages would need to choose between using spells on minions or enemies.

> But many if not most of those guys instead have the safety of added range Which against zed is kinda useless considering he has big range. Also all mages will have to expose themselves. They cant farm only with spells after all. > Then there are some like Aurelion who have a 60% winrate into him at dia+ even with lesser range, Neeko, TF, Viktor, vlad, anivia, cassio and Syndra They have tools that help them vs an assassin like zed. Asol has 2 hard cc and can bypass laning phase. Neeko has 2 hard cc and her w to trick him. Tf has a very strong point and click stun and like asol roams a lot. Idk about viktor all i can imagine is that he has way better late. Vlad can evade burst and endure lots of dmg thanks to his kit. Anivia has strong stun and her passive to back her up. Cass has a strong (albeit difficult to land stun) but moreover, ground making impossible for zed to reposition. Syndra has a strong and easy to apply cc. > previously mentioned These have good winrates because by late game people up there know how to play. You know grouping. Still, this doesnt make an assassin any less bullshit. > Heck its worth noting that he has a 48% winrate into Ahri as well which paints a different picture than the I never said "he should survive". All i wanted was to dispell the myth that mages with hard cc screw zed during the laning phase.

> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IN0u2OsR,comment-id=00090000000100010000,timestamp=2019-12-05T18:00:39.075+0000) > > But on the other hand if he could not do this he´d be useless so it´s a moot point, he has to be that strong early or even someone like Ori could run him out of lane. > > That has happened before, which is not supposed to happen in a simple mage vs assassin early. > > > Just treat it like a bad toplane matchup, sit back, be passive and only go for CS that you think wont result in you taking a bunch of hits for it, sure his W-Q has a long range but it does not actually do a lot of damage through minions with just 1 Q early. > > And if he does use it thinking he can wear you down now you have lane priority for the next 20 seconds and can zone him off farm and harass to even the score, or if you are feeling awesome then play normally until he W´s then dodge both Q´s from his W and go in to fight him, he cant easily escape and he has no damage left. > > Not many mages can actually do this due to being weakish early but some can. > > > As for his infamous level 6? Most mages have stuns or CC in their kits, if they use those properly when he tries to go in he has literally no way to avoid it which lets you either run or shoot back at him depending on the situation. > > > Later on a proper teamfights you are just flat out better than him as a mage on average and you´ve got zhonya then so he´d be hard pressed to kill you unless something unexpected happens. > > > So morale of story? You get to sit back and be comfy later as a mage compared to him so it´s only fair that he gets to pressure you if you screw up early, which in this case, that Ahri did a lot. > > The only correct thing she did was to do what i described actually, charm him the moment his ult blink was done, then bail out.....and you know what most mages have compared to Ahri? More range. Well the stuns (or cc) arent that useful a lot of the times. For instance, xerath's and vel's cc. Both of them have terrible hard cc (one has a single target stun that scales with distance and the other has an "aoe" suspension, meaning it gets reduced by tenacity that has a rather huge delay before it lands). Xerath's e at melee is 0.5 (you wont get that far away from a zed) and vel's is 0.75 (which is actually better than xerath's as a peel tool however the delay being 0.55 while also having a big ass animation means that the timing is very small to land before zed can swap with his shadow). Others have a cc that really doesnt help that much like lux's (although she does have a shield). I mean sure he wont be able to move. But he can still cast spells. Then there are some with some form of build up (like zoe's or viktor's). The only mages with cc that can fuck him up (imo) are annie, lissandra, malz, ahri, anivia,

> Present a logical reason why it does not? You might have to back off a bit from a minion wave because you need to go ward. Back off because someone is missing and might come to gank. Stuff like that. > Morde is waaay beefier than Irelia, he can easily afford to walk up to her in the middle of her casters (post lvl 6 and ideally a haunting guise+cloth armor) and then just start attacking+ult if she doesnt run. True but its not like its a the end of the world for irelia. She can still use her abilities to dance around him for a bit. Hell you dont even need to cast q to dodge his e. The delay is big enough for most people to simple right click to away. > Irelia is sitting there and wondering what she can do. Simple. Soak xp and wait for the wave to crash to the turret. The other thing one can do vs morde is ganking him before he gets lvl 6 where he has the chance to win a 1v2. > i just ran straight into her face and auto attacked her before ulting and starting my E then using Q while it was dragging her. Like i said earlier, there is nothing stopping irelia from just right clicking to evade your e. Btw here a tip that you might not have noticed. Morde's ulti channeling (.75) slows for the duration. Meaning you can cast e and immediately cast ulti for an easy hook. > He goes into melee range, drops his E and she either flashes or becomes unable to dodge it and then while she´s getting dragged he Q´s. There are 2 things she can do (or rather 1 considering its basically the same thing). 1st, (ik its getting boring saying the same thing but bear with me) right click to avoid his e since it has the same delay no matter the distance. Or repositon herself so that her q will place her behind morde. His e hitbox is more or less the same as morde's hitbox. Irelia's q places her behind her target. Although im not sure if ive ever seen it as i was playing morde. > Tiamant is considered core on her to the point where you usually want to get it before anything else, then Phage for more AD&movespeed so you can dodge stuff, the AD of both is let her auto´s and Q´s actually do some damage even when spammed quickly, also boosts healing. Oke oke. I guess its true. Its not like i play lots of irelia or something. > What stops Morde from just freezing the minions by not letting her go near them? Actually nothing. Thats just the nature of hard zoning. > Simple logic, a person who masters their champ will gradually be able to use the champ to their potential even if it takes time to reach that level, Masters+ players meanwhile are just there already. Wait because i might have confused this part. So with "Simply because the strength of a champion in masters+ does not just reflect on the people up there, it reflects on the mains as well, so if a champion up there is absurdly strong then the mains post some amount of games&stream watching will be as well." you are trying to say that if x at master tier is op, then x at gold is op too (Provided that he mains x ofc)? > https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/irelia/top https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/mordekaiser/top Ah my favourite thing. Contradictions. Why the fuck cant these shitty as sites agree to something? Like for real though according to opgg morde falls off at 40+. However leagueofgraphs shows him falling of a bit, and then skyrocketing to fucking eternity (korea plat+). Like WTF IS THIS SHIT. Anyhow now is not the time for ranting. Yeah in some servers morde has apparently strong late and in others weak. The same applies to irelia. But yeah you are right on average morde has better late. > Was it not you who was seriously doubting my claims of how easy it was to beat Irelia with Morde when i used personal experiences? x) Im 100% sure that beating morde as trynda is far easier than beating irelia as morde. Thats why i doubted your personal experience. > Which site you looking at? Lolalytics states Vayne just isnt that bad, ever, and Olaf still isnt bad then. I look u.gg for match ups and lolalytics for winrate/time diagrams. > If at 6 Morde just sits in his minions and attacks the moment Ornn goes near before ulting then Ornn has no answer Yeah you are absolutely right. Minus 1 important thing. Ornn does have an answer to morde's ulti. And hook (pre 6). His w. Ive played this match up COUNTLESS times before this preseason so i have these experiences still fresh (and vice verse funnily enough). Ornn's w makes you immune to his ulti. Sure he will still steal the stats (although im not 100% sure that he does) but he wont isolate you. Also (a bit difficult) ornn can farm some minions with his q and if he is feeling daredevil enough, use his e to farm a bit. > and given that Morde can easily freeze the Ornn just ends up getting no CS and thus the games end before he can do anything. Again thats just the inherit flaw of playing safe when you are in an impossible lane to win (on your own ofc). Aka gotten counterpicked (imo ornn is getting soft countered by morde. While morde will have difficulties killing a passive ornn, ornn on his own cant kill morde). I mean what can a garen do vs a compenent vayne or quinn? He will try to reach them with his q only to get knocked back (vs vayne) or displaced briefly and then slowed (vs quinn). After these abilities vayne and quinn can harrass him while garen tries to run away. Here's another one. Veigar vs zed. Veigar can only play passive and farm whenever he gets the chance since zed can always kill him with ease. There is only one thing you can do if you fall in such a situation. Play safe (as such not letting your enemy get even more lead) and hope your team wont need you (unless you have a tp and you can help them) for a while until you reach your powerspikes. Ornn, for example, unlike juggernauts (excluding voli, i always end up losing to voli top when i have ornn) doesnt have to get ahead to be useful. He just needs to buy his 2 mastercraft items by getting lvl 12 and there you go. Ornn is ready to teamfight by knocking up his enemies and providing his team with his items. > Seriously depends on the enemy team comp. True. But usually thats how it goes. > Then he pushes down and starts wrecking the towers because now he has AP, then what? Morde doesnt have the splitpush power of a fiora, jax, yorick, nasus or trynda. So even he goes to splitpush, your own team can just focus on another play like an objective or even a turret. Hell even to force a fight is possible. > but betting that seems bad. Welcome to league of legends. Where hoping in miracles should be a thing. Thats essentially the life of every tank main. > I mean evidently in masters they do with great success so somethings happening there. Yeap. But its a combination of small sample size and the fact that trynda can only splitpush. At that rank people should know how to react well to splitpushing.

Maybe. However you cant tell me that you find his burst pattern healthy, right? As he currently is, by late game he unload his whole kit, burst 1 target and heavily dmg (if they are close enough) multiple targets, while being for some seconds untargetable and invulrenable thanks to his w and zhonyas. I lost countless games because this happened. A vlad flashes to my carry (in some games the carry was in the middle of our team), casts ulti, q, w+e and then zhonyas. You literally cant protect your carry that way. Sure its not like rengar's burst 0.2 second. But at least you can peel a rengar (and he is easier to kill than vlad). You cant peel when the champ in question can be untargetable.

> Which is why he should just walk up to her in the minions and auto once first before ulting, at this point running away is not really possible, and if she backs off then just permanently zone her of the minions like that. In theory yes. In practise, not so much. Ive played my fair share of champs with strong laning phase while my enemy has a bit tad weaker. What you say just doesnt work in practise (with some extremely rare cases where you cant avoid someone's dmg like a garen that faces vayne). > If Morde is close enough to irelia from the start then his E will pass through him and hit Irelia even when she is behind him. Thats true, but if she isnt, you cant do that. And when you face morde (or any other juggernaut) chances are that you keep a fair distance. > The issue with your assumptions is that morde would be dumb enough to not stack at least 1 part of his passive before ulting The issue with this is that your assumption relies that irelia will be close enough when he has 1 stack. What if he gains 1 stack with his q and irelia backs off as to avoid him from all ining? And before you mention permazone, i already stated that in practise its not always true. > I really disagree that it´s easy at all if the Morde is any good How so? Both of them are in melee. Morde casts q to dmg irelia. Irelia casts q to dodge his q. What could morde do? Cast q to where irelia would land? Because in that case irelia wont even cast q since she can see where his q will go. Sure in practise its a bit more tricky but thats just the truth. And this is not exclusive to morde. Aatrox faces the same problem. He goes for his 3rd q and irelia can just avoid it by simply going behind him with her q. > Incorrect at that point i am afraid. BVHGNMI{ oke im usually to lazy to do calculations but i guess i will make an exception this time. (based on your numbers) 85+60%=176 multiplied by 2 because of the mark = 352 E would deal 110 and her w would deal at least 86 dmg. For a grant total 352+110+86=548. Ofc these numbers are without runes, any autoattacks and lastly no resistances. By the way as i was looking this clip, em where the fuck is irelia's sheen? Im almost 100% sure that its a must buy. It adds a very good amount of dmg on the q which she mainly revolves around. And, em, why in her runes she has bloodline and last stand? Bloodline is a bad rune for irelia because she deals mixed dmg. And last stand just doesnt mend with her very well, or at least not as good as coup does. Anyway enough questioning. Morde at lvl 9 has 57 armour and 40 mr. Which means that he would take 37% reduced physical and 29% reduced magical dmg. As such he would take 222+55=277 physical and 78 magic dmg for a grand total of 277+78=355. The moment she is being sent to the realm and misses her e, she also unleashes an aa and tiamat (question AGAIN, why tiamat so early? Irelia has strong waveclear. I mean going for 3 items all together [hydra, trinity, wits end] means that you end up falling behind in important powerspikes). Her aa would deal 152 physical + 51 magic dmg reduced to 96 physical and 37 magic dmg after resistances. Tiamat would deal an additional number equal to 60%-100% ad aka 152 which is reduced to 96 after armour. That increase the grand total to 355+96+96+37=584. As for conq, screw it. The increase in dmg shouldnt be that big (Although it could mean a difference in life or death). So would irelia survive? Dunno. The scenario is difficult to imagine considering irelia would heal 2 times from her q + plus bloodline+ conq. Or at least this irelia since she doesnt have sheen. > Furthermore she actually healed to full HP after her initial engage which negated the first iso Q entirely, so morde only actually really landed 2 truly damaging Q´s on her and did most of his damage with his autos+passive. Thats irrelevant. If the iso q didnt matter then she would have more hp and she would have survived the last q she took. Most of the dmg came from iso q. Im 100% sure. Its a shame i cant prove it though. > And how exactly do you avoid Morde killing you when you are getting Triforce? Rushing qss and getting all minions under turret. Irelia has no problem farming under turret. You will lose cs when they arent under turret but you make them up by farming all minions under turret. There arent a lot of champs capable of that. > Simply because the strength of a champion in masters+ does not just reflect on the people up there, it reflects on the mains as well, so if a champion up there is absurdly strong then the mains post some amount of games&stream watching will be as well. Em proof? > That´s part of why champions like Azir, Zac, kalista and even Taliyah ate a ton of nerfs. Not quite right. There is also proplay. These champs are very strong when there is good communication. The reason they ate lots of nerfs is because pro players had them pick or ban (or something like that). Some of them where indeed strong even in soloq but they were the extreme minority. > Irelia falls off hard in the real lategame, her best points where she can hard carry i´d say are about 3-4 items if she´s ahead, Morde meanwhile just does not ever fall off unless the entire enemy team grabs QSS&anti healing and he is the only frontliner on his team. Yeah no. https://www.op.gg/champion/irelia/statistics/top Although extremely small irelia peaks at 40+ (not really a dependable number but that means that she shines at late), https://www.op.gg/champion/mordekaiser/statistics/top Whereas morde falls from 52% to 50% (yeah still not below 50% but my point is that morde losses winrate as the game goes on while irelia goes up). Lolalytics has a similar diagram. And like i said in my previous post, irelia has such a low winrate even late game because she is objectively speaking weak. > Morde has the following winrates into following matchups : Honestly speaking, i took his winrates from both plat+ master+ and diamond+. Mostly because some of them are kinda bizzare. Ive played trynda vs morde and it was hilariously easy. I rushed wits end and i just saw him drop like a fly. Jax plays rather similar to trynda. Gap close and aa the enemy to death while the rest of my kit enforces that. Fiora just makes it impossible for him to ever ulti her and he cant even bait her w. Vayne is an interesting one. Morde has to walk up to her to catch her but she has extremely strong kiting capabilities. His 7% movement speed doesnt help that much. Also without ulti morde simply dies to a vayne because of her dmg (true specifically), her passive and the fact that her ulti has less cd than morde's. Yet somehow she isnt as strong vs him in plat+. However at diamond+ she is his number 1 counter? Like wtf is this shit? Diamond+ morde have trouble facing her but plat+ dont? Vs olaf at plat+ its a pretty even lane but as you see at diamond+ it changes drastically. And it partially makes sense? Olaf can reliably poke him albeit at a high mana cost and morde is very weak (for a champ with sustain) vs poke. He can also reliable trade with him thanks to his strong dueling nature plus true dmg. And his ulti essentially breaks his ulti and deals more dmg. Mundo is generally strong vs magic dmg thanks to his e. Also mundo can easily outlast most enemies thanks to his strong sustain and high dmg. Also, morde has 49% winrate vs mundo not 54% As for noc. Well i guess his spellshield helps vs morde but other than that i know jack shit nothing. > Because no matter how you look at it he basically doesnt seem to have any really bad matchups at plati elo https://u.gg/lol/champions/mordekaiser/matchups Check plat+ and plat. > while his worst at masters are mostly casters like Cassio/heimer, high damage like Riven/akali/Yasuo or Juggernauts like Garen/kled/urgot. You forget something very important. Sample size. After plat, the samples get very smaller. For example master, morde has 60% winrate vs ornn. Which is weird considering ornn has much stronger late game. All he has to do is play safe and eventually outscale him. > Do you see why Riot has to balance around mains too now? :P If plati elo was used as a benchmark then Morde with his lack of real counters would be considered a hotfix worthy target. I think its even more complicated. I mean morde became like that because riot gave him strong incombat sustain with conq. He pays in combat sustain for having a 30% of max hp as a shield once in a while. Right now riot gave him 15% heal on dmg on top of having that big ass shield. > Then lategame hits and suddenly the enemy does 1500 per headshot on Irelia, she dies almost instantly while can build and not really lose out on killing potential or damage for it unlike Irelia, heck since it´s a potent slow it might even help those at times. Irelia can just fine buy omen too. https://u.gg/lol/champions/irelia/build Also morde is adviced to buy omen because unlike irelia he has to walk to his targets, while irelia can dash to them, minimizing the amount of dmg she will take before reachin her target. > Or Morde goes to splitpush and with his corebuild done and some armor can now towerdive Irelia as long as he manages to get close enough first and get or or two passive stacks first. Ok cool. Irelia should you know, at that point simply group up with her team not to 1v1, even under turret, a morde that is ahead. > And that reminds me, he probably screws Tryndamere so hard because his E lets him peel Trynda and he can build Zhonya to waste the trynd ult. Morde's e has a significantly more cd than trynda's e. However you could be very well be true about zhonya. But i dont think any sane morde would try to 1v1 a strong duelist in the first place.

> What the heck are you smoking? She cant facetank shit that´s why she has to dodge you know? OKe that was my fault. I phrased it wrong. What i wanted to say is that she can facetank his aa and his passive (until his ulti fades). > And the massive issue with the matchup is Morde´s ult making it impossible to Q anything but him which makes it very, very easy for him to land his shots on Irelia. How so? Morde uses his e to catch an irelia. Irelia simply uses q on him and dodges it. Then morde tries to q her, but irelia uses q on him and dodges it too because it repositions her behind the target. By the time he has activated his passive, his ulti will have already expired. > Because either she uses Q on him and does damage or she doesnt and deals no damage while he activates his passive and now does more damage than she does. Unless you are fed, i dont think as irelia you want to try to take on a morde on his ulti. Your objective at that point is to survive. As such, aa until he uses his spells and which point you use yours to dodge his kit. Thus forcing him to aa you which will take a considerable more time than using his spells. After that long you simply wait 1 or 2 seconds for his ulti and there you go, you are free. > Unfortunately all her damage is loaded into her Q and passive so she has to start her passive and use Q´s or morde will just trade auto attacks to start his passive and win the fight, but if she uses those then he can freely Q or E and then he wins anyway. Yes which she always has 1 or 2 stacks ready. And like i said above, you dont have to kill morde in his ulti. Just endure him and run away later. And as i stated earlier you can easily dodge his kit. > It does, had you ever played the matchup you´d know. Lets look at a video : Kid ofc i have played the match up. Its difficult to land your shit when he can just q on top of you and dodge your skillshots. As for the video, im not seeing any melting as you say. What i do see however is an irelia taking 3 isolated q (out of his 4 q). Also him missing his e isnt as important as irelia missing her e. Morde's e deals close to no dmg and only exists for the cc and his passive. Irelia's on the other hand is for the cc, her passive and her mark which is far more important. Had irelia not missed her e she would have won that trade ez pz. > Important part is that he doesnt pay squat for it, Irelia invests in magic resist and he just gets damage and HP which outscales her, it´s how the game generally works. Damage scales better than defence for the most part. Lol nop. Or at least not for defence and offense items for the most part. Damage outscales PURE defence. Wits end (and scimitar) provide both offensive stats. Also its not like irelia will keep buying mr for morde to outscale her. She buys wits end, trinity and steraks. After that she can go whatever she needs. Morde CANT outscale her. Irelia has far better late thanks to her strong teamfighting. Morde can abduct one (hoping they cant get out of his realm) and then get cc to death. > Heck i even played this matchup not too long ago, i was passive early due to jungle attention then when i got liandry´s i literally walked in under her tower (she had triforce+merc threads) and i tanked 2 shots and went down to like 50% health with previous damage, Yeah im not buying that. That sounds extremely sketchy to be true. > Come the next wave when she was ready she instantly engages on me, i ult straightaway, drop the E on myself so she cant dodge it Em, why did she go on offense? Thats just a scenario of an irelia making a bad call. Engaging when you have no reason to do. > Still not good on her though because she´s balanced around getting triforce+hydra/sterak early due to proplay. We are talking about late game tho. Qss is for early, scimitar for late. > ....Ops, had it set to masters+ Elo there. Oops we arent masters. We shouldnt balance for the top players. Likewise we shouldnt balance for the bot players. We, or rather riot, should balance around the middle. At plat (+) she has 43% vs morde. > You cant just be like " LOL she wins ez if she gets wits end" then be like "yeah but she´s weak though so actually she doesnt" By winning i didnt mean kill him. Rather endure him. She wins when she reaches late game. > Praying Getting QSS and refusing to interact with him the entire game, even if this means being useless later because you´ll be permanently zoned off farm but he wont be fed which gives your team a chance to deal with him. Beg your jungler for a early camping session so that you get ahead to the point where he cannot recover on his own. Sounds like a general top lane experience. Get real she isnt the one that has to deal with a difficult match up. Wanna hear a difficult match up for the so called "overtuned" morde? Trynda, jax, fiora, vayne, olaf, mundo, nocturne. A lot of them can also make great use of wits end. > One guy suggests the matchup can be survived as long as you properly kill him once or twice early and rush wits end, it will give you significant breathing room until he gets his at which point you should have gotten a , then you should really consider grabbing and then it´s still easy. Em at that point i think you dont even have to face him. You can just group up (if you arent very behind) and offer much more than morde.

> You see the issue in this particular matchup is that Irelia relies waaay too much on being able to dodge shit with Q dashes and healing off shit. If she is behind. On equal footing she can just fine( lvl 6 ofc) face tank him and win him vs him (she still has 3 q and with those q she can easily avoid morde's q and e essentially heavily reducing his dmg) > All he has to do to win that fight at lvl 6 is to literally walk up to her in lane, auto attack once, melee distance, ult, hit his Q and E when she tries to all in and then just auto attack with his passive up to demolish her. COOL. Too bad he cant do it because the moment morde uses his e, irelia can just q on him (this will put her behind morde). The same applies when morde attempts to q her. And she has her e and r to mark him. > Wits end? That thing that needs her to auto in melee range and sit inside Mordekaiser´s passive with Liandries rolling inside it? She melts like butter. No shit? She is melee. Also liandrys wont melt her (unless its late) because wits end provides 50 mr. > Doesnt help that Morde has built in magic pen either. HO BOI Im pretty sure that 5% (at early ofc) is going to make a world's difference. Even at later stages its only 15%. > In teamfights? If she wants to participate in those she has to buy cleanse or he will just keep ulting her.......unfortunate part here is that Irelia doesnt really like the Cleanse item that much, so she ends up being shit against him. She can buy scimitar. Its not like she cant make use of the item. Dmg? Check. Mr? Check. Movement speed on activate? Check. Lifesteal? Check. > U.Gg at 33%. At u.gg its 42%. But even then its kinda in vain considering the state that irelia is currently at being objectively speaking weak.

> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kuByVxQ8,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-12-01T21:35:06.086+0000) > > Wits end doesnt actually accomplish anything for Irelia in that matchup, she can never 1v1 Morde unless fed as hell. > > She scales way too badly to ever match him. Yeah no. Every champ that can makes great use of their aa can use wits end. This item is perfect for aa focused champs to deal with morde easily. Dmg, atk speed, sustain and lastly mr. Also did you just say that irelia scales bad compared to morde? Omegafuckinglol.

The reason why some champs have things that their class shouldnt have is because riot sucks at balancing. Simple as that. All they have to do for example in vlad's case is reduce his burst.

First of all, where the fuck is your wits end. Second of all, juggernauts should in theory 1v1 with ease divers, aka fighters that have access to mobility but less durability (or dmg) overall.

> [{quoted}](name=KazKaz,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zPN8bMIA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-12-01T06:18:09.665+0000) > > I just played a game with no mages...my god, towers were relevant, teamfights were engaging, people weren't getting onetapped from a full lane away and Zhoyna's wasn't being abused. Overall, a solid game! Em how exactly mages threaten turrets more than adc or fighters do?

> [{quoted}](name=Veloz Destello,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TvyQWAIE,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2019-11-29T09:56:38.440+0000) > > A champ with damage in area, true damage, permaslow, 0 mana waste and 0 CD is a noob champ. Doesn't matter if he has no mobility Omegafucking lol. He does have aoe. And true dmg. And slow on a cd. And 0 costs. And 0 cd costs. H O W E V E R His aoe (excluding ulti) is very weak (compared to someone like neeko, xerath, ziggs, asol, azir, cass etc) and even his ulti requires his enemies to hug each other. His true dmg comes at the expense of ratios (q has good ratio, as does his ulti although it needs to be fully channeled) since his w at max has 40% and his e 30%. Similarly his base damage (excluding again ulti that requires channel) have mediocre to low numbers. The slow has a decay. And lastly 0 costs or cds. He is a champ that needs to land multiple spells in order for his passive to activate. It wouldnt make sense if his spells had high costs otherwise activating his passive would be close to impossible early on. The same applies to his cds too. Although only his q has low cd naturally. W and e have both 10+ cds. So im not sure where exactly vel koz is a 0 cd champ but w/e. An opinion is an opinion. And by the end of the day he heavily relies on skillshots. Yes in the past old nidalee and zoe have proved that a champ can be op (or broken w/e you want to call it) and rely on skillshots. However these 2 relied not on skillshots but skillshot. Their q specifically had high numbers because it was their only dmg spell (or at least for zoe i dont remember well old nidalee).

> [{quoted}](name=Veloz Destello,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TvyQWAIE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-29T03:39:09.780+0000) > > You get outhealed by a champ with no heals in her kit? {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} > > She's one of the most fun champs to play as, a bit annoying to play against her BCS her shroud and mobility, but anyways is punishable. Prefer to play against her than against Darius, Garen, Velkoz, zed or other 0 skill required op champs Velkoz 0 skill? Excuse me?

> [{quoted}](name=NaughtyWord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7WGVJZy,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T08:34:52.676+0000) > > A knockback is not a hard CC. > > A hard CC in any game is any ability that causes loss of control or movement. Eg: A stun, a root, a sleep etc. > > A knock back is a soft cc, you maintain control of your character, it is simply moved. Even if I were to give you that, MOST ADCs do not have a hard cc, so my overall point stands. Actually it is hard cc. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Crowd_control Besides, you cant take any actions during any knockback (or airborne effect) so it is a loss of control. Yes you are moved in a direction but you still have no control over your champ.

I was about to comment but naughtyword covered me.

> [{quoted}](name=XJ99999999999999,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XVcfO3dd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-21T01:06:28.552+0000) > > it really isn't. I just went through the list of champions a bit ago and I think less than 20 were actually "ok" with the item. I think there were around 5ish champions that it would be good on, some in rushing it, some in having it later. > > It is a situational item though. > > It's not too weak that people just avoid it, and it's not too strong as it has counter play and there is a trade off compared to other lethality items or an item such as blade of the ruined king. Counterplay? You mean dont 1v1 him? Oke cool i guess. So we sent 2 to deal with the sanguine user? This only helps his team at doing stuff. Now they can take objectives or even force a 3v4.

> Tanks having more CC wouldnt be an issue because there's already CC creep when assassins like Qiyana, Ekko, etc have the best stuns in the game. Stuns can get reduced. Being chain knocked up, not so much. Also more cc leads to a game where fighters need to auto win their lanes vs tanks because tanks will be so much stronger in teamfights. Thus sending tanks to the support role which BTW just recently lost the healing from the tank supp item. > A low damage champ locking you up for 5+ seconds wouldn't actually be problemstic at all. Yes it is. Because suddenly juggernauts cant do shit in teamfights. Adcs can kill you in a very little timeframe (despite dealing sustained dmg). Imagine what will happen to you if you get knocked up for 5 seconds. > It doesnt matter if they're behind when ornn can literally do 70%+ of your HP in magic damage with a combo. 2 W+ 3 brittle procs, before considering flat damage. Which said w is extremely easy to avoid. He also has to get close to you and aa you with one very VERY slow aa. > The problem is usually that tanks rush to 40%+ CDR Armour tank items usually lack cdr. So unless there is a major ap threat, i doubt a tank will hit 40%+ cdr. > So that 20 seconds turns down to 10 or less unless you have sustain and significant resists. Or you know, arent behind. Most damage dealers can deal with a tank on their own provided they arent behind. > I'm just confused about why they let Ornn/poppy do what they do Because riot is a very bad company when it comes down at balancing.

> [{quoted}](name=Zeyphel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lymuazsh,comment-id=00000000000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T04:05:08.282+0000) > > They can, Poppy and Ornn do absurd amounts of damage. Play them, they are just tankier assasins right now with less mobility. Yeah they can. However they need REQUIREMENTS. Both of them needs walls and in addition to that, ornn needs to proc his brittle. Talon's burst, 950+(610% bAD) in a timeframe of around 2 seconds. Poppy's burst, 920+(370% bAD)+16% target's max hp, in a timeframe of about 4 seconds. Oh and needs a wall for her burst to hurt that much. Want another one? Sure thing bud. Maokai's burst, 970+(115% AP)+16% target's max hp, in a timeframe of about 2 seconds. Oh and he needs a bush for his e to get empowered. Nautilus's burst, 1100+(210% AP) in a timeframe of about 2 seconds. Fizz's burst, 970+(300% AP) in a timeframe of about 2.5 ulti. Although he needs to land a long range shark. Also it doesnt take into account his dot. So how exactly are tanks just tankier assassins? Sure tanks have similar base damage but they fall very behind in ratios. Meaning even if they go dmg , assassins still outdamage them.

> I think tanks needed a buff to their survivability but also a nerf to their damage. Very risky. If you lower it a lot, they will get ignored. Unless you buff their utility to the a whole new level. Which would in turn create a new set of problems. Mainly cc creep. > I definitely hate that they can oneshot you so easily with their combo while being so tanky. Unless their target is behind they cant do it. And these that can have lots of requirements. Ornn needs to land his breath and a wall. Sion needs his w and a a semi charged q. Mao needs bushes for his empowered e. Malp needs to stack armour. Sej needs to proc her passive. > they should not have assasin levels of damage by no means. But they dont. Assassins deal shits like 500+270% ratio. Tanks hardly do that (nunu can but its because of his channeled ulti).

> [{quoted}](name=MrSîsterFister,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lymuazsh,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-20T19:51:19.973+0000) > > Well, considering yasuo akali and zed have much higher pick rates than say, orianna, syndra , anivia, Cassiopeia, its safe to assume that most people consider mobile champions more fun than immobile ones. Indeed because they deal dmg. Tanks need others to deal dmg. Not all them pick them because they are more fun. Some pick them because carrying with them is much easier than with a tank.

> [{quoted}](name=Greenlightx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lymuazsh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-20T18:16:50.775+0000) > > tanks are anti fun, they are the most boring to play and play against, they make assassins and bruisers absolute "which is a good 30% of the champions. hopefully riot realizes this before season 10 starts. Subjective. Me and others find yasuo, akali, zed and all the high mobile shit anti fun and boring to play as and against.

> [{quoted}](name=Zardo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=i7UrZ2i1,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-17T16:57:09.574+0000) > > Or-- hear me out here- > > People who don't surrender actually learn how to play from behind, in turn winning more games from behind. If you always just give up at 15 if you're behind, of course you're not going to know what to do. However, people with experience can stall games out and come back. Its not always possible.

> [{quoted}](name=Darth Sucadic ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Op8uT0TW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-14T22:41:59.186+0000) > > Stopped reading there actually. If you feed the {{champion:11}} {{champion:157}} for example, the game is 100% over. All the teamplay or objectives won't matter anymore. Inb4 "high elo" players come and saying hard cc is their menace.

> So how is this idea safe? That they cant be punished. Zed is going to be snared by lux. He presses w to avoid it. How is this not safe? Yes they have to take "risk" at killing her, but usually they do it because she is easy to kill (small note here, lux because of her shield might not be that easy, however a veigar would most certainly be an easy kill to a zed). > No this isnt what the "high risk high reward" means. The risk of locking in an assassin is if you dont get fed you become useless. So at the risk of becoming useless you pick a champ that IF you get fed can shut down 1 enemy champion. Thats was once. Nowadays the dmg is so high (or rather the defence is low) that high risk doesnt exist because killing a squishy mage is relatively easy. > Mages can match the burst of an assassin if not beat it once they have 4-5 items On average not really. And those that can have an easier kit to dodge (like veigar's). > Thats poor positioning from the jungler but this response is besides the main point i will make to answer this. How come? How else is he going to gank? The other way is for the mage to bait fizz. But thats risky since fizz could always kill him. > You cant gank them if their abilities are up but theyre also melee and are easily harassed. Once again, it depends. Dodging lissandra's q is not. Dodging vel's q is easy. > Why would i play fizz if he's prone to being killed early AND needs to get a lead to be as relevant as a mage? Because you want to take the matters in your own hands. Lemme explain. As a mage you need to wait to become relevant (unless the enemy feeds you kills) for whatever reason. Like getting fed before the enemy carry reaches a certain powerspike. As an assassin is way easier to do it because your kit allows you. As veigar i cant get fed unless my jungler camps me. Fizz however when he reaches 6 he can kill almost all mages (or force them to to go b) with ease. Thus you are getting fed and are able to shut down that enemy carry easier. > Assasin- The mage has to position poorly AND the enemy jungle has to be on the map at the same time. Mage- Harass the assassin from range while he tries to farm until hes low enough to full combo down with your cc to lock him down. (this could end up poking the assassin out of lane and forcing him to fall behind by missing cs) Not sure what you are trying to prove here. > I wouldnt say avoiding xerath's poke is easy, I would say its a bad xerath if hes missing most of his poke His targets can always react to his poke. Everything is telegraphed. They can adjust to xerath's q direction. P e r i o d. > When played properly its incredibly hard to dodge "poke" because they'd be poking every time you try to get a minion The timeframe for such an action is incredibly small to pull this off perfectly. Most of the times they just dont aa when you press q. Not everyone is kalista you know. You can cancel your aa. Also that might make you fall behind in cs since you focus on poking. > Because a champion's auto attack or ability cast is a "mini root" for lack of better words which means the champion cant move for a really small duration which is just enough time to poke them with an ability Yep. Which in actuallity is not possible. Even high elo xerath players cant pull this off. The window of opportunity is horrendiously small. > forcing the assassin to push up in lane and lose their kill potential on the mage without turret diving or opening themselves to a gank. They also can roam at that position. > Because walking up to a velkoz as zed is should be a walk in the park. The vel should never be in range for zed to ult and if zed W's into vel and ults well he just lost 1 of his dodges. And his other dodge is returning to his R so if vel puts his E where zed is coming out with that short delay on his R cast vel gets a full combo on zed and now zed needs to decide does he take R back He can always walk sideways to avoid that full channel ulti. But otherwise you are right a vel should never be in range. However he will go aa range at some point. If he dont, he will start falling behind in cs. > But even if we ignore the state of the lane velkoz's full combo does 726 dmg with 0 AP at level 6 where zed has 920 hp. This doesnt include comet, coup de grace, or scorch and obviously not the free 12 AP from runes or any AP from items or ignite. This doesnt include the fact that vel needs to channel his ulti for 2.5 sec. > Where as zed's full combo ulting landing 2 Qs and his E is 381 dmg (applying vel's base armor) where vel's hp is 868 at level 6. 381? Hmm my calculations 436 after armour. That is also 1 aa and i put 3 q because its possible (no ratios ofc) and his ulti has yet to proc. Anyhow to moving on, this will leave him with 431 hp. Funnily enough this puts him under 50% as such his next aa will also proc his passive. As such his next aa will proc passive for an additional 40 magic dmg (after mr). When his ulti procs it will deal an additional 146 (after armour) dmg if my calcs are correct. So both of them deal more or less the same dmg. Runes and items dictate who will deal more dmg. However something to keep in mind is vel's ulti. He needs to channel it while zed is free to move around or even use his w to reposition. > Which means the mage knows this and can back up and play more safely during these 10-20 seconds. What this exactly? That his jungler is top or that zed's w is up? > Lost chapter doesnt give cdr And now i feel stupid for thinking it gave cdr. > As for mana, manaflow band is more than enough as long as you're conserving your mana instead of spamming it however you like. True but most mages dont want to farm under turret. > Oddly enough you mention the assassin only needs to harass the mage once before all inning whereas you never mention that means during those 20 seconds the mage can harass the assassin 2-3 times during the cd of his W and where the mage doesnt even need it to burst the assassin. Yes he can. If it wasnt for the fact that mages have a more difficult kit to land, for a better word. During said time zed (in our case) can stand back and farm with his q for the time being. > Because you know they dont have hard cc. Vel E xerath E Lux Q Ori movespeed buffs and debuffs and her R Vel's e is 0.75 and reducable (if you land it considerin the delay). Xerath's q is a terrible peel cc since at melee range is 0.5 (hardly enough to get far away). Orianna has both a speed up and a slow, alongside her ulti and shield. She can survive ganks. Vel and xerath however lack these tools. > m not going to bring up players into this discussion because when discussing this topic its about the concept not how its played. If we're going to bring human interaction into if something is balanced or not, then you need 2 individuals who are equally skilled at the game, Most definitely. > What you're saying is. "if assassins can capitalize on my mistakes, then we should nerf them until the mistakes lead to balanced output in the lane". When did i say that? All i said is that mages are made to function (to an extent and some of them) even from behind.

> 90 mana pe..... straight clearing. Oke first of all props for doing such an analysis. Second of all, thats a very cool analysis and has some insight on her mana however all these kinda fall down when you realise that she will be forced to use her other abilities too. Also you mention "clearing waves", you mean clearing all 6 (and occusional cannon) with her e only no aa? Also please next time use some paragraphs. That shit is hurting the eyes a bit xD. > I had to go back to double check, but then you're proving my original point correct. You said zed scales faster than lux, i told you a 2 item lux can kill just like zed can. And you just agreed that this is the case. Im not really sure exactly what exactly i even tried with this point tbh. > Unless the zed is fed or the squishy has 0 armor 1 Q isnt going to kill the target. Assuming (E Q Auto after the R), in which case again this is the assassin captializing on the mistake of his opponent. It wont be 1 shuriken. It will be at least 2. A shadow spawns in the location where zed used his ulti. A lot of experienced zed players will w somewhere close before using their ulti to land 3 q and/or immediately reposition. In such a scenario, unless you have pure dmg reduction you will take a lot of dmg (provided he isnt behind). As for a mistake, eh i find wrong to call it a mistake of his opponent. That shit has 650 range. You will be forced to get that close. You can always not go but you usually have to go (secure minions because your farming ability is on cd, didnt kill a minion, passive forces you to get closer etc). > Im assuming we're dropping ori from this discussion because shes a safe laner cuz of her shield. My point was that there arent a lot of mages that have shields. And aoe at that. > . Xerath and vel you say lack strong utility but they dont lack it, sure it can be reduced in the case of xerath but that doesnt mean its not there. Utility is anything that isnt related to dmg. Cc, buffs, debuffs, shields, cripples, vision, goldmaking, etc. Xerath and vel really have dmg and a bit of cc. Their cc is weak because its easy to avoid (vel koz has a delay until it lands on top of a crippling cast time) or is extremely difficult to use (xerath's stun is single target that scales with distance. As someone that has played A LOT of xerath i can safely tell you that landing it max range is highly unprobable for a variety of reasons it usually has a duration of 1.2 sec). Is it there? Yes. Is it gamechanging? Well assuming vel's e knocks up more than 1 target yes (spoiler alert, nigh impossible because of said delay and radius). Assuming xerath lands his max range e on a priority target yes (which wont happen because he has more than enough time to react to it). > Malz can literally lock down the assassin who's trying to assassinate him Yes his niche is rather pontent. Doesnt mean he has a lot of utility. He has an aoe silence (soft cc btw) and a suppression (that also knocks down dashes). He can also body block sometimes thanks to his passive. In terms of utility he has certainly more than xerath or vel. > So xerath and vel were your two example i think ziggs is another one that falls under this category and what do they all have in common as artillery mages? Eh ziggs is in a far better position. He has dmg just like these two above. But he has far better zoning thanks to his whole kit, better cc (you cant reduce a knock back) that can also act as a dash for himself. Also pushing potential. But yeah im getting off topic. Yeah they are all artillery mages. However their kits dont bring a lot of utility. Because almost everything in their kit is dmg related. > I've said this before in this post and ill post here it again what your statistics show are that playing assassins is easier capitalize on player mistakes. What this doesnt show, is that mages are weaker late game than assassins. Oke im confused. Do you believe that mages are weaker late game than assassins or not? > We're debating whether the assassin class falls off And how exactly do you do that without using the above stastistics? > Statistically you'd have to use an assassin's dmg numbers Idk. Mages have lots of aoe. That inflates their dmg post game. > Bringing up numbers that assassins are better at punishing players who refuse to group means little to nothing. Emm the stats are form korean server. Koreans are very good at this game. I cant speak from personal experience unfortunately but they could be better than the average player in other region ( ik they could be exaggerated but still there has to be some truth in what everyone says). I highly doubt (opgg uses stats from plat+) that these lads cant group up vs an assassin. > Evelynn Evelynn? How come? Her cc is very telegraphed and can be body blocked (her q prioritzes closest champ).

> Also, my version only drops agro once, on the first cast. Fair enough. > Plus, you still should tanky enough to withstand her initial salvo, and she should be squishy enough to die once a bruiser gets to her I mean this happens even now (kinda). The problem is that at top they cant stay on her to dmg her enough. And what little they deal is healed up. Even if they have aoe they dont deal enough dmg to punish her (there are some exceptions like illaoi but i doubt she will be able to hit her). You try to q her as darius? She will just hug you and you wont be able to hit the edge.

Try using > "" for quoting. > Yet they still need to get ahead to be viable later on in the game. No shit? Thats the story of every champ that lacks good teamfight presence. > Assassins are a high risk high reward class for a reason Were. Back in the good ol days they had the risk of dying a lot because they had to fight the enemy. Nowadays they outdamage and will almost always kill them before they get killed (they are however some exceptions). > So calling them "safe" when theyre everything but safe comes off as odd to me to say the least They are safe because most of the times you cant gank them. Every missposition is fixed with the press of their mobility ability. Fizz got ganked? He will q your jungler (if he is behind him) and e to safety. In order to gank them you need to have the jungler around and then wait for them to use their mobility. However if the assassin has a brain he wont use it when the enemy jungler is missing. Sure the assassin wont be able to trade, however the jungler wont be able to do anything because he will be waiting in the bush for the assassin to use his mobility. > They need to take fights to get ahead most are melee and easily poked. Depends on what champ pokes them. Avoiding the poke from xerath or vel is easy. Avoiding poke from malz or liss isnt. Even then they have tools to farm from safety. Zed his q. Talon his w. Kassadin his q. Akali her q. Ekko his q. Katarina her q. And zed akali and kata dont even have mana to manage. And they are also spells that they usually max. > If they ever choose to all in (which you refer to as the mistake) they're easily killed. A full hp zed vs a full hp vel? I doubt. Zed has stronger burst and can move around to dodge his kit. > Take for example zed if he uses his W forward to poke or harass his laner hes now prone to a gank for the next 20 seconds. Indeed. However zed could always w to harass when he knows that he wont get ganked. Crazy i know right? If the enemy jungler is top, he can easily w to poke his enemy. > How often does zed need to use his W to wither down his opponent. Only one actually. After a lethality component he needs w combo to damage heavily an unarmored mage (provided that he lands ofc). If the mage buys armguard he misses mana and cdr. Without that you are free to push and roam. That way you force him to use mana to farm under turret and eventually he will be forced to go b. > whereas mages who are the ones that can have safe laning phases If a mage gets ganked he gets ganked. Unless he is ziggs, lissandra or neeko they wont be able to evade the gank (unless they use flash). > because they can be viable without an influx of gold can play passively and take the game at their own pace Well they have to fucntion like that because a lot of the times they concede lanes to assassins. If they didnt, well why the fuck would you pick mage? Especially when assassins are so popular. > Because its harder to sit back and spam E to farm with lost chapter than it is to try to dominate your lane or at least push in an AoE mage as a melee champ so you can roam. Lux cant spam e to farm. That shit costs a lot of mana and even then its not enough to one shot them. Lux will have to go aa range to finish them. If she also goes lost chapter she can be easily killed as long as the assassin has lethality. You dont try to outpush the mage that has lost chapter. You can but its not advisable. You outright kill them since they are squishy. You just engage them after they use one of their spells to push. The lux that used her e to push wont be able to outdamage you if you engage her immediately. Thats literally trading 101. > Lux at 2 items can wipe a duskblade building zed with 1 snare (ludens + deathcap) Em not possible in an actual scenario. No lux goes dcap after ludens. And even if she does, she is extremely fed. But anyways i will do the same. A zed with 2 items (duskblade + ghostblade) will wipe a lux with ludens if she gets in range. > Lost Chapter + Seekers lux nullifies all of zed's kill potential as well as gives her control of the lane. Yes and no. She has mana to farm and armour to not die immediately. However she delays hard her powerspikes. And zed can still kill her. Although he might have to work a bit more. Also she falls behind in dmg. > Whats unreliable about lux's kit? If you say landing Q i respond with zed has to land 2 Qs at least to match lux's dmg Well her q. In order to burst you, you need to be immobilized. Zed too BUT dodging a q from point blank range is not possible. And he builds duskblade for that 0.25 99% slow. So yeah you wont dodge that q when he ults you. > Hell even some champions like lulu completely nullify zed when played properly Because thats her job dude. To shut down assassins (and divers). Thats like complaining that janna completely nullifies garen. > Whereas lux can safely pump her dmg out from her team's backline while applying cc and shielding her team. Thats her job you know. Just like zed is going to be roaming and picking off lone targets. And if there are none he can just engage when the enemy is busy. > You dont think zed needs to land his Qs to burst his target? Dodging a point blank range q without flash (and under a slow) is not really possible. > Try playing zed and see what happens if you're not fed This applies to most champs. Even champs that bring utility and cc suck ass when you are behind. Try playing ornn when you are still 10 lvl and the enemy top laner is 13. You wont be able to tank shit. > Safe laners are mages since they dont need to get ahead to be viable because of their utility Lol nop. Not all mages are lux. The other mage that brings shield is orianna. Some mages lack strong utility. Xerath and vel for example bring some easily dodgable (and reducable) cc. But no shields. Ahri brings a single target charm. Malz brings aoe silence and a single target suppression. Not every champ has the kit of lux. > Where mages remain strong throughout the entire game assassins fall off https://www.op.gg/champion/fizz/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/kassadin/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/orianna/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/cassiopeia/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/xerath/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/ahri/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/mid https://www.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle https://www.op.gg/champion/evelynn/statistics/jungle https://www.op.gg/champion/khazix/statistics/jungle My point? They dont exactly fall off. Some of them have good winrate even during late game. And some peak at late game. Conversevely, some mages seem to fall off late game. The whole "mages strong throughout the game and assassins falls off late" is not true anymore. Its far more complicated. > Your gonna need to provide some logic besides "he can W away to get out" because if he doesnt use his W he isnt killing anything without being ahead. As i said earlier he can always w in when the enemy jungler cant interfere with him. If he is around, he is taking precious time from the enemy jungler by drawing his attention. Because thats how a 5v5 game works.

> [{quoted}](name=Wilk Rycerz,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=E4tHv1Jy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-13T17:17:23.937+0000) > > So this one is going to be a hot take: > > Akali had a better design potential when she had obscurity on her shroud. > Here's why: > > One of the main problems assassins have had throughout the years is the lower counterplay they can have when they get rolling, due to how fast they are able to get off their entire kit. Riot has tired several times to extend their burst window, usually to poor results (for example: the season 7 assassin update, which has resulted in 2 reverts). > > However, one of the best things that they did with Akali is the fact that they extended her burst window **without** it feeling completely tacked on and horrible to play. Her rhythm of moving in and out of her passive ring, as well as the bulk of her damage loaded behind that enhanced auto means that there is a natural timer on how quickly she can deal her burst. > > That timer is something that the obscurity greatly helped. With the strong safety tool that she had in her shroud, Riot could afford to move damage away from her abilities (her up-front burst), and into her passive autos (the regulated damage). Granted, there were other problems. One of them namely being *how* quickly she was able to re-stealth after attacking (which could cause in-flight autos to just cancel). > > In my opinion, a healthier Akali would be one that has her stronger in-combat safety tools back, but at the cost of lower up-front ability damage. Something perhaps like: > * Shorten the base duration, but re-add the incentive to drop in and out of shroud to extend the length. When deployed under turret range, her shroud would last a *significantly* shorter time, similar to Azir's soldier timer (likely by removing the extension possibility) > * Add a range limit to her E second-cast, allowing you to retreat without making yourself still a target. In exchange, it would follow dashes and blinks, provided those occur while she's already in motion to you (I.E., either leave or stand and fight. You can't have it both ways). > * Either change cast type of R1 to targeted, or shorten the dash range of both R1 and R2. Greater in-combat safety should not be coupled with a strong ability to just turn tail and run. > * Shift the energy return of Shroud cast to her passive. > * Shift damage from her abilities to her passive auto. Retain the increased damage to minions and monsters on her Q at max rank (possibly increase to compensate the overall damage loss on wave clear?) Why do you want to make turrets incapable of protecting? Seriously they are already trash. I dont think we need them even more incapable. Also > Shift damage from her abilities to her passive auto Im pretty sure this will make her an even more nightmare vs juggernauts and tanks on general.

> When marksman and mages are putting up numbers in as high and can do it more consistently and safe whats the point of playing an assassin Assassins have a much safer lane because of their mobility. You cant gank a lb, fizz, zed or talon without them making a huge mistake. > . Why would i want to play lets say zed who has 0 hard cc and needs 14-20 seconds for his combo because his W and can burst kill one target after 3.5 seconds (.5 seconds for the delay time on his ult and 3 seconds before the pop) when i can play lux gain hard cc, range and the utility of mage items and also bring shields to my team while bursting targets with Q E R combo from a safe range away. Why would one want to play zed over lux? Because zed has a much easier and safer laning phase. He scales faster than lux. He can get out after a fight and lastly his kit is much more reliable. For lux to burst someome she needs to land her q which is skillshot. For zed to burst someone he has to get in range for his r.

> Yes, sivir absolutely sieges better than caitlyn, especially early game. In early game maybe. However later on caitlyn will just spam her snares under the turret, making it impossible for the enemy to defend the turret without taking all this "Caitlyn's next basic attack deals (50 / 75 / 100% (based on level) + (125% + Infinity Edge item ) critical strike chance) AD Attack damage bonus physical damage" which her snares increase this by 60 / 105 / 150 / 195 / 240 (+ 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100% bonus AD). Her strength doesnt lie with her waveclear. But her ability to deny her enemy from taking any action.

> Ezreal E is a short range blink Yes. Because it is O N D E M A N D. Whenever he feels like it he can press e and blink 475 units. Other champs might get more range in their blinks. However its not on demand/has a requirement/telegraphs their landing/ is in their ulti. Ekko, elise, evelynn, katarina, kassadin, lb, lissandra, pyke, yasuo, zed and zoe require a target/is telegraphed/is ulti. Shaco is the only one that has a blink on demand (that has indeed no cast time). But he is a REAL mess tbh. > and he has no move speed steriods outside of it Because he has range. Do you see xerath or varus have any sort of movement speed buffs? No. Then why the flying fuck should ezreal, that possess a blink, have movement steroids? Because of that blink he also has 325 movement speed compared to xerath's 340. Also again, ezreal regularly builds iceborn, so each q is going to slow his targets (and an area around them) by 30% for 2 seconds. > you can legit run an ezreal down with just base movespeed alone after he E No shit? Who told you can missposition and expect to survive all encounters? > ive done it on vayne twitch and many other adcs and ive been ran down by 90% of the champs in this game even if they dont got dashes Vayne has a huge movement speed buff. Twitch has huge range alongside a big ass slow. Ran down by 90% of champs? Well eventually. However without dashes i highly doubt that garen is going to keep up with that 30% slow. Sure his q will cleanse one slow. But he wont be able to recast q for some seconds. Unlike your q. Darius will keep up with you if he lands his e. Good thing you can dodge it by blinking away when he gets close. Although that is actually difficult to pull off. Mordekaiser might land his q. But he wont be able to land his e. And yeah, he cant really walk up to you without you gain a big distance. Yorick needs to land his e to even have a chance to catch you. Good thing you dont even need your e to dodge his. > 9/10 there is a monster on that wall an little escape you pulled off is ruined as you die to baron/dragon/buffs/camps. I love how much you struggle to downplay such an ability. Keep trying im pretty sure one day you will succeed. Probably.

AGHU this comment gives me cancer but oh well i will endure it. > Ezreal E has a channel time and so does his Q when you are kiting that time you spend castin Qs allows people to catch up to you, your base move speed is super low and even people with standard movespeed increases can catch up to you. Oke so? Its extremely small. Most spells have a cast time. Also you are phrasing something extremely wrong. E doesnt have a channel time. Channel immediately means that you can interrupt it. You cant interrupt his e. Quote from wikia "Arcane Shift's cast time cannot be interrupted by anything other than Ezreal's own death" . Also as ezreal you usually build iceborn to slow your targets. Making their attempt even more difficult. As ezreal you naturally get 40% cdr. Thus your e goes from 13 to 8. Each q reduces your spells cd by 1.5 Will the oposition eventually catch up to you? Yeah because ezreal has low movement speed and your enemies might have other tools to catch you, slows cc dashes etc. And thats fine because ezreal isnt made to kite. His e isnt there to kite but to safely blink out of trouble. > Ezreal E is so over estimated its not even funny. Im actually amazed as to how much you try to downplay it. Honestly its kinda cringy. > Trist dash also resets on kill/assist or a full stack exploding bomb. she also has a massive knock back and huge range. Now you just listed half of her kit. Besides, hers is a dash. She can be knock down during her time in the air. Blink>dash. At least when measured as to how safe it is. > sivir spellshield and ult and passive and aoe damage allow her to kite and run, avoid stuff that can lock down ezreal. Now you just listed half of her kit. But anyways, whats this??!?! Sivir has better kite capabilities than ezreal?! Who would have thought. Seriously now her job is to kite. Ofc she can kite better than ezreal. And you have it a bit wrong. Sivir cant avoid lock down as easily as ezreal can. Ezreal can avoid a bad situation by pressing e and getting the hell out of there. Sivir's e will block 1 ability. But she is still in a bad situation and her passive alone wont be enough to help her run away unless maybe if she uses her ulti. At least in such a situation ezreal has better chances at surviving. > Kai'sa has a insanely long range dash that also gives her shield and stealth similar to vayne, has insane hybird scaling and damage and single target burst. GJ on saying her niche. Very nice. You know whats ezreal's? Safety, by fighting from a safe distance and having a blink on demand. Wake up dude kaisa isnt as safe as ezreal. > Xayah ult is the best counterplay for anything that can lock you down target wise an if a team runs at you an you ult you can get a 5 man aoe snare which will also chuck most champs and kill squishies. Indeed her ulti is very strong. Thus the extremely high cd of 160. As for that 5 man aoe snare. Extremely unlikely. Enemies must be literally hugging each other. And you mustnt do it against someone with so aoe as xayah. > Ezreal basestats are also the lowest of the low he prob has about as much hp as sona/yumi Oh thats very easy. Ahem, HIS Q HAS 1000 RANGE AND ON TOP OF THAT HE HAS A ON DEMAND BLINK. If you get on top of him you deserve to damage him. > has lowest base atk speed of any adc No shit? Nowadays i dont think ezreal relies on aa all that much. And even then your passive is there to help. > ezreals ratios and cooldowns have been hit so hard over the years that he is a shell of his former self, The last patch he was touched at 9.16 he got a 15% nerf at his q ratio and his e cd got increased early on. Which makes sense, most strong defensive tools have long cd, fiora's w, yasuo's w, vlad's w. Hell even aatrox's w which is not defensive (or even warrants the cd but w/e) has 26. At patch 8.23 his w got stupidly buffed "Base damage increased to 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 from 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275. AP ratio increased to 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90% AP from 70% AP at all ranks." and his ulti "REMOVED: The total damage is no longer reduced to 100% − 30% (based on enemy hit). NEW EFFECT: The total damage is now reduced by 50% against minions and non-epic monsters." At his relaunch he lost 10% ap ration in his q. So tldr he lost 25% ap ratio in his q. And he got an increase on his e. So much for that "hard over the years". > ontop of his itemzation being nerfed and still having to rely on tear to even scale due to his mana costs I would argue that he lacks one since unlike other adcs he doesnt rely on crit or on hit dmg. > the new W has a channel cast time also that the old one did not, i miss old W so much and this rework is a total failure. Seriously whats with all this hate towards cast times? M O S T S P E L L S H A V E O N E. And you miss old w? What the fuck im pretty sure all ezreal players hated that shit because it felt out of place.

In which world a champ that has a spellshield is as safe AS someone with a blink that has its cd lowered each time he presses q? Even when you take into consideration her passive she still is not as safe as ezreal. Ezreal has his e to blink around the battlefield. Sivir has to walk around albeit faster and she has occusionally a spellshield to block 1 ability. Ezreal is going to be attacking (worse case scenario ofc) from 1000 or so range. Sivir will have to walk up to something so her w can bounce off or/and use her q to dmg something beyond her aa range. > Between that and her ability to siege a lane unmatched by any other ADCs is how she oppresses the shit out of a lane. Sivir sieges better than caitlyn? Do you even play lol?

My problem with her ulti is her ulti deals dmg each 0.25 second scaling down to 0.18 at rank 3. Meaning that you cant even flash before you take dmg.

> [{quoted}](name=NaughtyWord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ia06LtJZ,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2019-11-11T20:07:48.755+0000) > > Laughs in {{champion:15}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:498}} Sivir isnt as safe as ezreal. Her spellshield blocks one spell AND has a long cd. Whereas ezreal's e cd gets lowered each time he presses q. Also said q has a huge range meaning he doesnt even have to get that close. Tristana might have a big dash. However that means that she can be displaced when she is in the air. Also unlike ezreal she cant sit back 1000 or so range to deal dmg. Kaisa has a dash on her ulti (that can be interrupted i think) and outside her w has no range whatsoever. She does have her e but she can still take dmg. Xayah does indeed have safety. However its gated behind 160 cd. Outside of that she has some range (it doesnt compare to ez's but still) and some cc. Also fuck xayah.

> your damage is very low and you dont scale as hard as crit adcs or mage mid lanes Thank goodness you mean. A champ with such safety SHOULDNT have strong late. As for how you are going to play him. Dark harvest for late burst potential, electro for early burst potential and conq for in combat sustain.

> [{quoted}](name=7deadleesinss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M6Ftise8,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-09T17:52:29.262+0000) > > i clearly stated that in my post. its a combination of banshees passive being very bad and zhonyas active beeing rly good and the item being very gold efficient. if banshees worked like sivir e i would buy it vs fizz, malph, zac, ahri, etc... Thats exactly why. The item lacks a proper ability.

The reason people buy zhonyas in response to ap burst is because banshee's is fucking trash.

> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JjJpAbNE,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-09T14:30:08.825+0000) > > And Deathcap with its passive and Void with its current high pen amount. Void's problems can be solved easily with base stat scaling buffs, and DC straight up either needs to lose AP from the passive or AP from the item itself. The 3 you listed are indeed big problems. > > Also another thing that makes mages broken (certain ones) is Glacial Augment. Want an easy way of landing your shit while denying any counterattack? Just grab this rune and buy two slowing items with decent AP ratios on them and reap the heavy rewards. You cant nerf DC and expect ap users to be able to dent heavily armoured targets. I mean look at this shit. https://imgur.com/a/5eHAtLa I was dealing shittons of damage. Yet i was dealing very low dmg at cho. My q dealt what? 250 or so dmg. Ofc i couldnt finish DC in time but still, imagine if DC didnt give that much ap. How the fuck should a mage kill a tank that has 2 mr items?

> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JjJpAbNE,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-09T14:30:08.825+0000) > > And Deathcap with its passive and Void with its current high pen amount. Void's problems can be solved easily with base stat scaling buffs, and DC straight up either needs to lose AP from the passive or AP from the item itself. The 3 you listed are indeed big problems. > > Also another thing that makes mages broken (certain ones) is Glacial Augment. Want an easy way of landing your shit while denying any counterattack? Just grab this rune and buy two slowing items with decent AP ratios on them and reap the heavy rewards. You cant nerf DC and expect ap users to be able to dent heavily armoured targets.

> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4ZEGHvUa,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-08T07:31:03.551+0000) > > Aren't they designed to be carnivores but for some reason still think eating mostly bamboo is cool for some reason? I can't see an animal like that surviving naturally. Eh i cant say for certain but apparently while giant pandas (because there are also red pandas) have a taxonomic classification as a carnivoran they are adapted at eating almost exclusively bamboo. Also according to good ol internet giant pandas emerged some million years ago. So its very likely that, despite having such a weird lifestyle, you can survive just fine provided your natural habitat isnt destroyed.

> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4ZEGHvUa,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2019-11-07T21:35:36.375+0000) > > Oh yeah, we aren't helping, but if we as a species didn't exist, I don't think pandas would be able to survive on their own, they just like...don't put up the levels of power to actually survive in the wild. I dont think so. They have very few natural predators when they are fully grown (i imagine tiger might be the most dangerous). The biggest threat they have is the loss of their natural habitat because they rely heavily only in bamboo. Take that away (or deplete it) and they will have trouble feeding themselves. If humans didnt exist, pandas would most likely remain around just fine, albeit they would have very low numbers thanks to their specalization to eating bamboo and being you know, panda. They are very weird behaviour wise.

> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4ZEGHvUa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-07T08:15:34.351+0000) > > I'm like 99% sure that if humans didn't exist, pandas would have naturally gone extinct. Well humans actually contribute to panda's extinction. Their natural habitats are in danger thanks to human activity. So yeah.

> [{quoted}](name=AlienPrimate,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=y0diLyLk,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-07T04:50:57.089+0000) > > People have already done the math and elder buff seems to actually be a nerf with a significant loss of burn damage. The amount of damage lost on the burn is more than the damage gained from the execute. True but still. You can take actions because its a dot. New elder means that if you take dmg below 25% you die instantly. Whereas vs current elder you can try to heal through it or use zhonyas.

> [{quoted}](name=RyzeRework,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ix1rnlss,comment-id=000e0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-07T08:00:11.965+0000) > > I dont think you play ornn then I think that YOU dont play ornn. And it make sense. You have only 3 ranked games with ornn. Ornn does have damage. However it hardly counts as one shot since it takes a very long time. His q has a delay, his e has a delay, his w has a .75 duration before it brittles, his ulti has a delay. Hell even his aa have a big delay. One shot means shittons of damage in a very small timeframe. Aka veigar style.