: Lethality Jhin is actually pretty effective, a guaranteed crit plus execute damage while partially ignoring resistances can really, really hurt. You can actually see Lethality builds on a lot of ADCs, they're really effective into squishy comps which are pretty common as tanks have been doing poorly. To make Jhin's build work you will probably need 1, maybe two traditional ADC items, probably only IE and maybe Stormrazor because its synergy is great with Jhin.
I am aware about adcs being able to go lethality from time to time when the meta allows it. That wasn't the point though. That overly long passive is a very bad design. Jhin's playstyle doesn't change depending on the build(unlike varus in the olden days) and so w/e item build will be resulting in better damage will be used. So why even put it there? Just let the champion have its own unique straight ad build with no shoehorned benefits from attSpeed and other standard adc stats and adjust his ratios accordingly.
: League of Legends no longer feels like our game anymore.
I think the problem is that they started to overdesign everything and left only shooting/dodging skillshots game to the player. * Every non-teamfight strategy was getting nerfed any time any example of it working popped up * All of the champion designs are extremely linear. All of the champions have essays in their skills/passive only to make sure that champion will be played their way. Look at Jhin: he could've been an adc with some unique lethality or non-crit full ad build, but instead he has an entire novel in his passive to shoehorn him into a standard adc itemization. * Offbuilds are dead. Riot said that they wanted to support offbuilds a few months back but since then they released kai'sa(who plays the same as ad and ap) and that is it. I have yet to see any actually viable offbuilds. Gone are ad malz and ap MF who actually played completely differently compared to their standard builds. I don't include assassins going tank here as they all played the same as their standard versions just were able to survive and pull off more spell rotations in one fight. They are also a product of high base damage while real offbuilds are a product of a different scaling. With all of it dead we are left with just a boring in-the-moment gameplay that you already know how it will play out most of the time.
Stacona (NA)
: I am really happy that new Nunu + Willump is not a dark edgelord
"Go Willump feast on the flesh of our enemies!"
: "Stop dying", "play safe", "quit inting", "omfg quit feeding".
To be fair. Trying to follow kata's roams without wards is a very bad idea and will most likely just result in her getting another kill.
Wolfeur (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=RaikoPlays,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qH7YINq9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-13T19:01:52.955+0000) > > {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} rito The issue with WotA compared to {{item:3812}} is that unlike AD champions, AP champs can have built-in strong healing that makes them unbalanceable. I think only {{champion:122}} and {{champion:420}} have quite strong healing abilities and they're all AoE so it's not that problematic. WotA was pretty much removed because of Vlad alone.
lol WotA was used by vlad only. And saying that ap champs have better sustain then ad is just wrong on so many levels I can't even begin to describe.
LEAFERA (EUNE)
: 100 to 0 under tower at lvl 1, in 2 Seconds
Not trying to excuse this garbage yolo meta but...why did you start with rune prison? I haven't played ryze for a while but wouldn't it be better to start with E? You might've pushed the wave and got lvl 2 first and then things would probably have gone slightly less ugly. There was also a small chance to survive or trade 1 for 1 if you walked further into the turret range after rune prisoning him. Although I kinda understand that feeling of giving up when your hp bar evaporates this quickly without slowmo.
Haziv (EUW)
: Shaco “The Puppeteer”
Am I gonna have to buy it?
: Actually, I am seeing Blitz as one way that this the damage created by the changes this season could be "undone". A lot of the changes occurred because there was an outcry from the secondary content creators that they were not able to create the highlight reel stuff that they needed for their content PLUS the games were going much longer than their competitor's games. Blitz might be able to satisfy this demand - and hopefully might give the devs the breathing space to restore some sanity to the Rift.
They also have done a lot of changes that had a goal of "the game should look and feel the same way you see pros play in LCS". Which is also obviously not the balance team decision. This was the reason behind a lot of changes in pro play. So unless Blitz gets its own pro league, it will just get slowly relegated to a new for-fun aram-like mode that top dogs at riot wouldn't care about.
Rioter Comments
: Alright folks I need a new anime to watch I am caught up on all mine
Fate/Zero; Fate/Stay Night(2014!!!) Don't watch non ufotable fate stuff though. For good edgy and dark stuff One Punch man; Mob Psycho 100 (from the same creator) for light fun+epic animations and overall interesting spin on shonen Baka and Test for the comedy.
: Ok... that's not the point though. You said she got a damage buff which she didn't. And the Lee Sin changes are only a damage buff if he builds more offensive items, it does less damage to tanks because it lost the %missing hp damage.
What's a tank?
: It's actually a relatively divided topic internally tbh. From a pure data perspective, the amount of damage in the game isn't meaningfully higher than it has been in the past (and is actually down for some champs), the main difference is how much more frontloaded it is. Whether that be from Duskblade, Scorch, Aery etc, it's easier to apply reliable damage that amps your combat rotations or poke. That's an area where there's more division, on one hand higher damage ensures that fights conclude, that playing aggressively is rewarded and that playing purely defensively is easier to take advantage of. This is probably a bit spicy, but I personally believe that the Ardent Censer meta from worlds couldn't have existed this season given that aggressive teams could have better taken advantage of the weaker earlier game of the team going for the AC rush (no vision, no hp from sightstone etc). Picking aggressive combos like Leo/Trist would have been a much better counter to the strategy. That being said - and this is my opinion - I think there's probably a bit too much damage right now that lacks sufficient counterplay. I played against a Soraka yesterday in a playtest and her being able to apply both Aery and Scorch immediately to me with E doesn't feel particularly great. I don't want to get too deep into the weeds here though, since that's just my opinion - but hope that once we collect our thoughts next week we're able to give you a firmer stance and what/if we're going to do something.
Have you considered just making high damage skills more clunky to use? Using a skill without stopping to cast it or casting it instantly does feel good, but it also makes all of the champions feel the same and removes a lot of difficulty of use. I understand why you don't want to do it, but I feel like with 100+ champions on the roster it is high time to make some of them(especially the ones that either do damage and are useful or they don't and they are useless) actually hard to use and not just hard to master.
: I agree with this. One of the major problems I find with League's current design philosophy is that it appears that there's now a prevalent zero-sum mentality when it comes to implementing fun in League: any win for one player is seen as a loss for another, even when said win applies to simply using an ability. I feel there are three major problems with this mentality: for one, I feel this is simply not true, as I personally believe it's possible to make interaction fun for all, and to have counterplay itself be a source of positive gameplay for all, not just one side or the other. Second, while this wouldn't contradict the premise, if it were true, it would effectively imply that League as a whole generates zero net enjoyment, which is not what you'd want out of any kind of entertainment product. Third, I think the mentality also doesn't apply in practice because there are some situations that generate _negative_ total enjoyment, which I think has been happening at increasing frequency in recent times. In the current stompy environment, for example, it feels horrible every time to get stomped, but past a certain point, stomping itself doesn't feel all that special, certainly not as intense as the opposite feeling. In a League where winning feels decent, but losing feels terrible, it's far less easy to generate solid commitment than it is to simply burn players out, or turn new players away. Counterplay I think is another large problem in League's modern design philosophy, and I feel that in recent times Riot has kind of unlearned much of what they had previously learned on it. When League launched, counterplay wasn't really conceptualized in a clear manner, and so some matches felt really unfair when certain comps or champions were around. This eventually led Riot to realize that champions need to have more of their power depend upon how they interact with their opponents, and this was the driving principle behind a ton of reworks, as well as quite a few new releases, including the VGUs we've had in the past few years. However, somewhere along the way, someone decided that counterplay wasn't all that important, and so we started receiving an influx of new champions that were severely lacking in counterplay, such as Yasuo, Azir, Kalista, Ekko, and so on. There even was a Riot post where the developers themselves said they'd essentially forgotten to value counterplay on many of their newer champions, and promised to add more later on. Immediately after, however, we received Camille, and Zoe not that long ago, in addition to a whole bunch of reworks that failed completely in making their champions more interactive (namely the Tank Update). It doesn't at all feel like counterplay is treated as a core design pillar; rather, it feels like it's treated like a necessary evil at best, and frequently as an option that can be fudged in the name of cool, flashy mechanics. It also doesn't feel like counterplay is at all a driving principle behind modern releases, when I think it has immense potential to be developed into a source of fun gameplay for both the champion and their opponent. Sion's unwieldy ult gives an incredible rush to the player using it, even when they fail, but is also terrific fun to dodge or simply watch as the Sion faceplants into a wall as his opponent. This is the kind of non-zero-sum enjoyment that good counterplay creates, that we need much more of in League. On that note, I think a large part of the issue with this mentality, which is also mentioned in the OP, is with the way developers allocate power onto their champions. Rioters in the past have frequently talked about "power without gameplay", and tried to design away from mechanics that merely act as free stats, but more recently it feels like we've entered this similarly immature period of design, in which champions are given gameplay purely through more power and options, rather than truly diverse playstyles. Too many champions are saddled with mobility, CC and damage, even when those are not meant to be strengths they're intended to have, simply because those mechanics are considered "fun" to have. The additional layer to this is that some of these mechanics are so prevalent that they're even considered _necessary_ for a champion to be enjoyable or viable in a competitive environment, which is why so many champions have been given some sort of semi-global gapcloser on their ult. Very little comparative effort is made to generate cool playstyles via limitations, or other drawbacks that force the player to make interesting choices, and that allow opponents more options against them. This is why Riot seems perfectly fine with letting players get every upgrade on Kai'Sa's kit at once, when the original intent was to have her tailor her playstyle, or why champions like Thresh, Yasuo or Zoe get to access essentially every mechanic in the game. In the end, it's caused a great deal many champions to blend into each other, as champions frequently end up with a very similar mix of mechanics with only slight differences in power and implementation. When everyone is given every toy in the box just to feel special, no-one is. In the end, another major problem with this kind of design is that it's also ended up being incredibly cannibalistic: a common defense of CertainlyT's champions, for example, is that they'd be perfectly fine in a game where every champion was designed in the same way. However, the reason they're not healthy is because they tend to be extremely forgiving of their own mistakes (practically every CertainlyT champion has a ton of different outs and answers to any given situation), while punishing others extremely hard for messing up (champions like Thresh, Yasuo and Zoe all have comboes designed to either kill or severely damage enemies from full health if they get caught by one single effect). Champions like Camille, Kayn, Kai'Sa, etc. follow similar lines of design, and the end result is that they give themselves plenty of agency, while offloading all of their responsibility for providing the same to their opponents. All of these champions rely on their opponent having a similar amount of options and overload in their own design to be healthy, so when they inevitably go up against a champion with fewer answers, it feels like only one side gets to dictate the entire pace of the lane, and sometimes the entire match. It's a different kind of zero-sum design that tries at all costs to make new, individual champions sell well, in exchange for making the game worse and generally more precarious for everyone else. This is also why I don't buy arguments such as "Yasuo is the most popular champion in the game", because ultimately Yasuo isn't the only champion in the game, and his isn't the only popularity that matters, particularly since he's only popular when he cannibalizes a lot of the fun from his opponents. We need design that aims for the long term, and that tries to add fun gameplay for _everyone_ involved, instead of providing fun exclusively for one champion at the expense of all others. It is this very short-sighted, narrow kind of design that I think has become a large part of League's decline over the last few years, and the more Riot follows this unhealthy mentality, the harder it will be to get out of it in the long run.
I agree. Can you imagine a game where {{champion:92}} would not have a stunlock but instead just one source of hard cc(and one slow if it was neccesary), {{champion:41}} who didn't have free ms boosts from just blowing up a barrel(and instead had to either rely on barrel slow or had to get into melee to smack you for this ms boost), {{champion:114}} only getting q resets from hitting vitals, {{champion:202}} without passive that would shoehorn him into standard ad itemization(god forbid we have an adc that scales differently and has unique build)...The list of powercreep can go on forever with what this game has become.
: For once, let's blame Ghostcrawler for something he's actually responsible for!
I wouldn't mind assassins carrying games if they required actual skill to play. Right now they are so overloaded with damage that their 1v1s are just freebies. 1v5's certainly take skill but quite frankly no champion should be able to jump in 1v5 take a kill or 2 and get away no matter how skilled you are. Their skill expression should be to find vulnerable target and strike. But having crazy damage is only half the problem. I wouldn't mind this damage if they were getting bursted down just as hard. But they aren't. Defensive ad itemization is absolutely insane with plenty of options that tanks could only dream of. And next patch there's just gonna be more of those... Why??? And don't even get me started on the gunblade cancers who need 1 item to become draintanks. But an even worse atrocity is their kits. They are as streamlined and smooth as the rest of the champions. One would think that there would be some tradeoff for such power. But no: Kata's blades will always land behind you cutting off escape add resets to that and your only options are to fight or die; Kha's q is still instant and landing w is far from required, ekko still destroys squishies with one passive proc, zed doesn't need to land his shurikens to get a kill and all he needs is to land them twice in lane phase and you're out and so on. Add riot's philosphy that champions should only have clear strengths and 0 clear weaknesses...aside from mana pool. God forbid mages will have something to do in this game aside from being fodder for asssassins. I really liked this game in season 2 as a more responsive and smooth version of dota. I liked playing underpowered roles like junglers and supports as carrying from them actually felt good and I knew that it was due to my skill and game knowledge. Nowadays I rarely feel that I lost to a better player. I only see a champion with much better numbers and an empowered ignite that will finish the job if they suck. Wp rito's balance team. You outplayed me pretty hard.
Zellios (NA)
: I can't take this "stomp or be stomped" gameplay anymore
Lucky you. Most of my games are 5 carries vs 5 carries that always stretch into 35+ minutes because death timers are way too short to do anything(especially with buffed baron) and then its a coin flip who bursts who first.
: @Riot What happened to the potential yasuo changes from 2017?
Guess those changes were considered a projectile.
DW Diana (NA)
: If Malzahar was reworked by the guy that made Yasuo
w: voidlings now randomly dash through enemy targets(1 sec cd)
DeusVult (NA)
: Riot, what is supposed to be the tanks response to ADC item changes??
I can guarantee you that no adc will ever get to this build. I mean just compare costs of items that you brought up. New adc build will cost fuckton. And now it features sexy new build path for {{item:3031}} which guarantees that if you ever lose a teamfight while building it you will most likely lose a game. It is the same struggle mages have with {{item:3089}} . If you ever come back to base with less gold then required for {{item:1058}} or recipe you won't grow your power and your opponents will and it will all go downhill from there.
: Just had a sad moment in my last game
Silver is purgatory where you await judgement by rito's matchmaking.
Revali (NA)
: I think mages are fine, people tend to think they're weak when it's more a mages work goes unnoticed until you look at the damage screen at the end of the game, then you see they do more work then people think.
{{champion:17}} also usually ends up in the top damage dealers list. Much good that does for his team. All the poking that most mages do becomes kind of irrelevant when enemy enchanter support gets into the equation. They are also kind of fucked in lane with no strong early items now.
: Just a quick notice here: Precision is intended to be the ADC tree. There's really not much point in complaining that the runes in a tree cater specifically to the tree's target audience. (>_>)
This is the part that really pisses me off. Everyone can use ad/ap, hp but not everyone can effectively make use of attack speed. How come adcs can take supposedly suboptimal for them tree like sorcery/domination and still make use of it as efficiently as any mage/assassin would since they will scale off of it. And yet there's a whole bunch of champions who can't really make use of attack speed for whom going Precision means getting a useless appendix of attack speed that they can't make use of. Everyone can use sorcery, everyone can use domination, everyone can use inspiration, everyone can use resolve(more or less) but precision? Only ad and on-hit carries allowed.
: Saying that Morde has 25% extra HP is just flat out wrong, because that's assuming you're always at full shield, which means you're always damaging champions and dealing enough damage to completely fill your shield. Remember, Mordekaiser is one of the most deceptively tanky AND deceptively squishiest champs in the game. If you catch him in a teamfight or in a minion wave, he becomes super tanky. If you catch him anywhere away from any of his ally units, he becomes really squishy and pops. Same happens if you just hard CC him.
It might be less it might be more. That second bar is always in flux and is indeed situational so it's hard to tell. My point is morde hp bar is not the problem so stop making stupid threads about that. If you want something to complain about complain about actual problems like his lack of utility and not some objectively false memes.
: Other keystones are way better for these champs
That's just false. Whether it is early or late game 2 extra autos will always result in more damage then thunderlord comet or aery. And if you add some juicy on-hits/3 hit procs. Why, that could be pretty broken.
: Problems with Domination Tree and Hail of blades.
How {{champion:29}} is {{champion:203}} hall {{champion:11}} of {{champion:56}} blades {{champion:77}} useless {{champion:5}} ? {{champion:5}} ?{{champion:5}} ?
: Am I the only AP main that is jealous of the new Essence reaver?
I, on the other hand, wish that this "fun" item won't go through pbe. Really not looking forward to fighting all ad mini-katarinas it will spawn.
: > [{quoted}](name=Puppet33r,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AyVl3gcx,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-05-03T06:19:13.592+0000) > > Could you morde mains stop crying and pretending like you don't have a second highly replenishable health bar underneath your usual green hp. And that technically you got 530+25%=662.5 max hp which is by far the highest. And, even if you somehow got bullied out of lane creeps or shoved too hard and can only rely on your green hp, this is still far from the worst base hp... Wow. Did they update Morde? Does his shield not deplete down to 20% after 2 seconds out of combat. Oooooooooh so Morde not running around at full shield value all game.
Is it that hard for you to hit a creep with any of your skills/autos every 2 seconds? Also let's not miss the **highly replenishable** part. It's not like you can't restore it during combat. If your enemy is in your w it regens like crazy. Not to mention reactivation w which restores your actual hp. No other champion have access to such insane amount of sustain from lvl1. But keep circlejerking and ignoring facts. You guys are good at it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Puppet33r,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AyVl3gcx,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-05-03T06:19:13.592+0000) > > Could you morde mains stop crying and pretending like you don't have a second highly replenishable health bar underneath your usual green hp. And that technically you got 530+25%=662.5 max hp which is by far the highest. And, even if you somehow got bullied out of lane creeps or shoved too hard and can only rely on your green hp, this is still far from the worst base hp... are you actually saying mordekaiser is op in this high mobility cc chain adc-centered meta? is this real? am i having a stroke?
Where exactly did I say he's op? I just said his hp pool is fine it's his kit that is garbage. He autowins most of the melee trades and pushes like a machine from lvl1. But he can't escape a gank, can't close the gap, can't cc. His only option is to snowball and control drakes. So either pick him smart, cheese with him or stop complaining about things that are not the problem.
: If you read my post I specifically mentioned that in the notes
You mentioned it and yet you didn't account for it at all. You are saying that despite increased cost it should still be way weaker then before. New {{item:3031}} is obviously meant to be what {{item:3089}} is right now. An item that you will never build first and an item that you will only decide to build when you are ahead and know for a fact that you will be getting ~1300 gold before each back. And if you make the decision to go for it and then you will lose next teamfight it will be pretty much over for you. So no, infinity edge is definitely not the thing to be worried about with the next update. The scary changes are the buffed up defensive ad items that will turn divers into assassins again and reworked {{item:3508}} that will spawn multiple mini-katarinas and instantly by itself bring back the problem of a way too early power spike for certain adcs.
: Can my boy here also lose 4 armor to get a f* ton of HP?
Could you morde mains stop crying and pretending like you don't have a second highly replenishable health bar underneath your usual green hp. And that technically you got 530+25%=662.5 max hp which is by far the highest. And, even if you somehow got bullied out of lane creeps or shoved too hard and can only rely on your green hp, this is still far from the worst base hp...
Arammus (EUW)
: essenz reaver now reduces cooldown after using your ult. hey yi, is your q in urf mode? ie now turns 20% crit dmg into true dmg and doubles the crit chance. oh whats that yasuo? conquerer gives you 40% true dmg? 8.10 is going to be horrible for adcs. an absolute nightmare.
If only there were some adcs who would turn godmode with 1 essence reaver...oh wait {{champion:145}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:110}}
: Math and other stuff on PBE ADC changes
Why does everyone completely neglects to mention the price changes. It is the real killer for this double zeal + ie build. All zeal items cost 200 more and ie costs 300 more. Which is pretty substantial by itself. Add a really awkward build path for ie into this equation and this build becomes pretty much not viable in the current meta. As far as this build is concerned rito did what they promised:ie+zeal item is much harder to get and is weaker. No more 2 items spike. But... then there is this 1 item spike that is cropping up with everyone on boards blissfully ignoring it which is this monstrocity:{{item:3508}}. With its new passive {{champion:236}}, {{champion:145}} and {{champion:110}} will be destroying everything after 10 minutes.
: ADC Burst vs Squishies WAS NOT nerfed on the PBE and I have the math to prove it
You forget price increases. This build on current pbe costs 400 more gold. Also they never said that they want to make adc irrelevant. Otherwise new essence reaver wouldn't have that absurd passive. Their goal was to nerf 2 item spike that they were getting with ie+zeal item. And that price increase might just do the trick. The real question here is whether the reworked items provide an even better 2 item spike instead?
: Marksmen are getting some changes (crit damage nerfs from what I'm aware of, IE, Essence Reaver, and Dominik's getting changed afaik) that will be hitting the PBE along with the jungle changes, and as well as a potential new item for enchanters to be more helpful for AP champs and not just shieldbots for marksmen (AP friendly equiv of ardent)
But for the next ~2 patches botlane will become demigods singlehandedly deciding how the game goes because other roles got shafted first.
: Fact and fiction: Mana changes
Fact: Those item cost increases are gonna fuck up your laning phase after first back and any assassin with half a brain will abuse it to destroy your life and dignity with his cheap {{item:3134}}. And it will never be double longsword against tome and crystal, it will always be dirk vs mana crystal and tome. This is exactly how assassin meta was born back in the day with mages not having strong early options. Guess it's back to the dark ages.
: Riot's already stated that they intend to make botlane more open to non-marksmen, and they've stated that they want to lower lategame marksman crit damage. As to whether or not the changes will hit the mark, I can't say.
Yeah they said that... And then they nerfed mages as a class who will have nowhere to go.
: {{champion:22}} Doesnt have any powerful waveclear, she cant spam W without running outa mana fast as hell without ER+zeal to keep her going. {{champion:21}} Also runs outa mana if she tries to spam. {{champion:67}} No waveclear at all. {{champion:119}} ^ {{champion:51}} Runs outa mana if she tries to spam Q, relies on static/hurricane for clearing. {{champion:236}} Same deal as with Ashe. {{champion:96}} Same as Cait except hes worse off. Marksmen have waveclear? We could argue that they do if we bring in their items but name me one that isnt a support that doesnt have access to some item that drastically enhances their clearing? ,,,,,Actually even some supports can do it.
Just read the post above the one you are replying to. I'm not gonna write it all over again.
: > [{quoted}](name=Puppet33r,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yvh82t28,comment-id=00070001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-19T12:59:44.750+0000) > > 1. My every point still stands. Stop pretending like adcs don't have waveclear skills. Every one of them has aoe/spammable single target skill that rito shoved in there to make farming more exciting and smooth. Nuh uh! {{champion:67}} don't have no waveclear skillz and so you're entire point is invalid. /s
Daunt (EUNE)
: What? Those champions are still gonna be better than other mages at doing that since they're designed that way. They're only making that strategy slightly weaker, and for right reasons. If all mages get nerfed, that means that in a mage vs mage matchup pretty much nothing is changing besides the whole class being slightly weaker. Speaking as if this impacts the class enough to make it really that much weaker. Taliyah is actually a pretty disgusting pick in regards of not having to know how to play the lane out but still coming out either even or ahead of the enemy laner due to how her kit works. If you think her only strength is waveclearing then you obviously don't understand enough to discuss about this subject. And people keep complaining about variety on mid yet when Riot does something about it people start going on upvote farming rampages about subjects they don't understand. I'm actually glad that they're making mid a bit harder again in regards that champions that actually have to keep track of their resource bar the most finally have to do it again.
I have 0 concerns about mage vs mage matchup. They are indeed for the most part getting hit by this nerf together with a few exceptions. And the real reason mages are a dominant mid pick is not so much because of waveclear but because there are VERY few other roles that can go for ap carry. I mean look at it from the invert standpoint: "What role can you pick mage atm and not suck horribly?". Aside from tanks and a few barely viable junglers your team can't have any other source of magic damage other then mid mage. Also I'm not taliyah main. Taliyah is strong but far from disgusting. I will take taliyah meta over any other meta any time of the year even if I won't get to play her and be forced to play against her. Why? She has 0 bullshit in her kit. No percent damage. Pretty much all of her damage comes from skillshot ability which can easily be blocked by tanks(who can tank her for hours since she has no %hp damage in her kit). Her only hard cc is very difficult to land. The only problem she has is excessively low cd on q at last level(which didn't get nerfed because rito smart balancing).
Daunt (EUNE)
: You're talking as if most assassins aren't shit right now. Just because you're unable to play vs Zed in gold elo doesn't mean that he's actually a good champion.
Assassins are shit against _*insert any champion with damage here_ **+ Support**(notice the second part). In 1v1 they are still as unbeatable as they always were(assuming you are at least on equal footing with your opponent). They still get to outstat any non-tank champion early game and get guaranteed kills while missing half their skillshots post lvl6. And that's not bringing up cancers that can use {{item:3146}} in their core and basically become draintanks. Also I'm high plat-dia you asshole(look at previous seasons if you want to be anal about it). I just played on different server with a buddy of mine this season.
: the discussion is about laning regardless, zeal items got nerfed and are being looked into further with the adc patch everything is in the red posts you quoted, come on man, you know that
1. My every point still stands. Stop pretending like adcs don't have waveclear skills. Every one of them has aoe/spammable single target skill that rito shoved in there to make farming more exciting and smooth. 2. Zeal items never got nerfed. Statikk got a slap on the wrist and that's it. They are still ridiculously cost effective. They still have ridiculous synergy with IE(with no cost to their sustain that adcs had to pay for such power back in the day). 3. I don't care about next patch or patch after that if my current experience is gonna be shit. If you suddenly want to introduce clear weaknesses to classes you do it to every class and you do it at the same time. Preferably in preseason, when sweeping changes are appropriate and there's time to test it on live servers with little to no consequences to player's elo and sanity. 4. I never quoted anyone, OP did.
: but adcs champions already have to individually auto attack every minion several times... so do most assassins... those champions don't need to have their waveclear nerfed because it isn't a problem... mages waveclear is... it's not difficult to understand.
Yep you are correct poor little adcs can't do anything but right click. None of them have waveclear skills or access those mage items like {{item:3087}}(an item that was very specifically marketed as a waveclear option) and {{item:3085}}. The difference is adcs can waste their mana pool to waveclear and then use autos to push further or fight enemy champions. Mages who run oom is just free gold. You can't even push you can only last hit.
: you are overly dramatic, like that kid who cries a river over eating vegetables or seeing a needle. the changes aren't that significant, you'll barely notice them probably, you'll just have to be a bit more conservative with your spells and spend a bit more time being active in lane instead of doing nothing waiting for the next minion wave.
Will adcs have to be more conservative with their bullets? Will {{champion:238}} have to be more conservative with his shurikens? Didn't think so. And those mana changes by themselves are not that big of a deal... sure. The real killer and a testament to riot's stupid transparent "shove assassins into pro games" intent is the cost increase to early mage items. Coming back with a {{item:1052}} and {{item:1027}} against {{item:3134}} assassin is not a joke. Even now with {{item:3802}} or {{item:3070}} you have to be careful but at least you know that you can waveclear and retaliate if he forces a stupid engage. Doesn't look like it will be the case any longer. Also, roaming **IS** being active. No one is waiting for the next wave.
: the idea is that you would want to copy what the pros do because they are playing the game optimally and so should you. if the optimal way to play the game is to pick a mage, shove the wave and roam to gank sidelanes or clear vision, that's what you want to be doing too because that's what wins you games. and since this winning strategy is deemed unhealthy for the game as a whole (too much pve, not enough pvp) riot is addressing that. let's be honest, if you are bronze or silver, these changes don't matter because you have no idea what you are doing anyway.
That is stupid because mages like {{champion:163}} and {{champion:136}} were very obviously designed by riot themselves to do just that. And now {{champion:163}} gets doublenerfed(current patch+those stupid changes) as a result and won't be able to do what she was **designed** to do. Which is funny cause she has no percentage damage and no true damage and her q is easily avoidable and gets blocked by tanks. Her only strength was waveclear strategy. And now she won't even be able to do that. It would be like removing all lethality from assassin items and telling them: "have fun doing your job killing people". Not to mention that aforementioned assassins do the same thing because riot reworked all their kits to include waveclear in it. These changes are stupid on so many levels when you stop even for a second to think on it.
: This mana change shoud not apply only to mages.
If those nerfs were happening in a vacuum and all of the league champions were mages then sure... This change would be fantastic. But this change is happening after 4 zed buffs in a row. After a bunch of individual mages nerfs to their manacosts and cds. And, most importantly, no other class gets any new weaknesses introduced. Just mages. Right now, in the current state of the game, mages not running oom just feels like part of the course. Since adcs are killing them in 2 crits. Assassins just straight up outstat them with raw damage/tankiness and just automatically win any 1v1(unless they fuked up somewhere along the way) AND all of them got the waveclear in their new and shiny kits.
: How are you going to react when I tell you that Lux has a minor rework's worth of changes coming soon? https://clips.twitch.tv/VictoriousKawaiiHamburgerPunchTrees
Are you going to mention that those changes are most likely going to force her into support role?
: The balance and design teams loves to get cute and cause tons of collateral damage in the process
: You guys have been complaining about powercreep since the start of the season
Because this "powercreep" is only taken away from one role at a time letting other roles run rampart. Not to mention how hard they hit the mages. I can somewhat understand the whole mana rebalancing thing they decided on. Even though at the current state of the game mages not running oom quite frankly feels just a part of the course since most of the other roles don't. And it is a scary thought that they are gonna be the only ones who will have that weakness(since riot designers a long time ago decided to make champions with 0 clear abusable weaknesses). But hitting tear items on so many avenues at the same time seems a little ridiculous. Especially its price tag feels just excessive. Never have been entire roles hit that hard in one patch...ever. It has been known that zeal items for adcs are stupid cheap for what they offer for a long time. And yet 0 changes. No one is asking a definitive changes immediately but a small and simple price increase or small stats nerf to keep them in check would've done wonders for game health. Same with support items. And yet it's just the mages who are gonna have take it for the team for the next 3-5 patches at the very least.
k wìx (NA)
: These mana changes are going to destroy mage supports - check my math!
Lol. This guy thinks he's gonna get 850 at level 5 as a support.
: I agree with everything except the last part about rework. Fiora, Gangplank, Swain and Talon turned out fantastic. They have clear strengths and weaknesses and all feel very fluid to play. But despite that, I am officially quitting League today. Personally, I feel that Riot has removed almost everything fun about the game.
I don't think gangplank has a clear weakness. Maybe if he didn't receive free speedboosts from just blowing a barrel(and had to actually smack you in the face with a melee auto for it)... As is he is nearly untouchable for some champions with no dashes.
: You are wrong, so I am correcting you. It is coded as terrain. Poppy and Vayne can both E people into it for a stun and Ornn will get a knockup if he charges into it. This means that the 4 listed as being coded as minions is incorrect. As for Bard, I actually had to look it up. The wiki states that Bard's E lasts longer than player created terrain so to avoid an odd interaction of a portal being in mid air, they coded his E to not interact with created terrain.
Are you sure? I don't see any changes to his R since patch 6.24. And I was playing him back then and vayne was definitely tumbling through his ulti. Unless they did some work on player created terrain overall(I have not been playing league as religiously as I did back in the day) she should still tumble through it.
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Puppet33r

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