Truli91 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m2F33l8w,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-05-27T15:30:41.195+0000) > > I once made a thread a long time ago about Rank and Balance, and one of the things I said there was this: > > "Most people don't want a truly balanced game, they want a fake balance where they win doing the exact same thing they always do. A real balanced game means that the more skilled player wins the fight, regardless if it's you or your opponent, but we know that that isn't how things work. When someone loses, even if it's a fair fight, 90% of the time they will complain about it being imbalanced, and thus they don't want actual balance. They want a balance that seems fair and they win." > > More or less around those words, had to trim down that whole chapter into that paragraph. not true. give me balance. Im bronze and in normals sometime i get metched against gold/platinums. not even kidding. its not fun to get rekt by a guy whos 4 tiers above you. and before you tell me: "oh its normals, MMR and sht",no. Some people only play normals and they want a fair matchmaking. im not gonna complain if i lose to a bronze, but im gonna complain when i dont even had a chance to win from the start. 15 min waisted.
I think the fact that you completely misunderstood what I wrote shows you are Bronze, no need to tell us that. I'm talking about champion balance, not matchmaking. Many people do not want an actually balanced game, they want champions to be balanced in such a way where they win regardless what the others do. Look at all the complains about "diversity" in how "if you get counter picked you lose", then look at Kai'sa, a champ that can't be counter picked because she can do anything that's needed given the player playing her knows how to play her and the enemy doesn't int into her. The cry changed from "we don't like being counter picked" to "she's too good because she can't be counter picked". Although many cry about the current meta and such, this is mostly their own doing. They don't want the game to be balanced around player skill, they want it to be balanced around bad players because they want to win easily not to get better and work for their win.
KazKaz (OCE)
: Well in that case, why not give her another rework that might be healthy and balanced for everyone?
You still have to name 1 champ that is balanced for everyone. Until you can, stop asking.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s4eaiEkU,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-09-09T19:11:01.063+0000) > > Or at least part of the nerf. > > Ok, she's losing damage on it, that's cool. > Ok, she's losing the micro stun on it, that's cool. > > But for the holy name of Ahri, at least don't let that CD nerf to go through as well. nah, way i see it it can just be pulled back entirely. no need to even touch the micro-stun at this point. her Q is what is annoying about her and what actually frustrates people when they come across a "good" akali, which just translates to "they see zones better than i do" so they maximise the Q-pasive spam which should get some reward no doubt, which while i can do it's not something i enjoy fixing my hands to do so clearly there's some mechanical floor that has to be met to play teh champion. what should be done about her Q? dunno, would just call it a feature at this point, i can assume that lowering the cooldown makes her energy redundant and she'll be kennen 2.0 with no real costs because all the moves are on cooldown long enough for energy to have been recovered, so there's a game to be played with the low cooldown Q in terms of baiting energy out of akali. are people willing to play by akali rules though? probably not, so she'll get nerfed in this way this patch, and then her Q or passive will receive another nerf in the future. what's left at that point of the champion i dunno. my main gripe with her was her obscurity cause i legit didn't get to play league against her, now she's playable. punishes idiocy hard, but she is playable even if the opponent is a "mastered" akali.
Look, I know that, you know that, most don't know that. Look at this guy, the OP said she has to be easy enough to be able to carry after just a few games, in a thread I made, people said she has to be weak enough for anyone to beat on autopilot (not their exact words, their exact words were "players shouldn't be forced to learn to play against her"). People will never be happy no matter what Riot does. Is she weak if not mastered but requires a bit of extra thinking to play against? "Ree cancer champ".
floo (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Farih Fynrux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E3mndAzU,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-09-09T13:29:29.310+0000) > > all the no brain fizz one trick downvoting this lol. idk why riot hasnt nerfed him yet. he snowballs pre level 6 just W-Q- then E back to safety while deleting half hp then after level 6 he snowballs so hard and you cant do anything unless you flash or zhonyas sometimes either of those wont save you :/ i would say nerf his E cooldown and W or R damage so people will use E as disengage only and you can have time to counterplay without being one shoted when he lands R does full combo. Do you even realize how few sense that change makes with your innitial complaint? If he already uses his E as disengage why lower the cd to make people use it as disengage even more? If you play a ranged champ mid, outrange him and don't let him farm. If you stay far enough and don't overcommit, he won't even get in Q range. Bait his E if you can all in kill him or before a gank to make him helpless. That's why he's a low elo stomper and useless higher up.
Your "low elo stomper" has his lowest winrate at 51%, in Challenger, even at D+ he's at 52%
: akali is actually fine as she is right now, i would even suggest rito pull back the incoming nerf.
Or at least part of the nerf. Ok, she's losing damage on it, that's cool. Ok, she's losing the micro stun on it, that's cool. But for the holy name of Ahri, at least don't let that CD nerf to go through as well.
KazKaz (OCE)
: I am referring to all those demographics, yes. Although that said, she becomes a real nightmare once mastered since her entire kit is unhealthy, so I suppose that demographic definitely has some more significance than the others; to which I say, you are correct in your response. However, pro players haven't really mastered her, she's just amazing in co-ordinated play thanks to her ability to counter most champions picked within pro play, especially in the top lane, where she lacks any real counterplay. That's when she gets nerfed, thus hurting those who have mastered Akali within solo queue. Outright, Akali is worse in solo queue than she is in pro play, and that's due to the nature of solo queue and the champs she has to compete with (who are currently Rambo champs thanks to damage meta), who outperform her thanks to solo queue being a chimpfest.
It's just impossible to balance for all those demographics. There's not 1 single champion in the game that's balanced for all. And no, Akali doesn't do good in pro play because she counters stuff, those players picking Akali actually know how to play her, but they have something yolo que doesn't have, and most importantly, yolo que doesn't even know exists, well, at least the vast majority of yolo que: actual propper wave management. Yes, Prof. Akali may be a better Akali player than 1 of those pros, and maybe even solo challenger mains may be better Akali than the procs, BUT, those pros are also 1000 times better Akali players than 99-100% of the Akali you see in your games, based on your elo. Akali is outperformed in solo que for 3 reasons mainly: 1. Most players don't know how to properly play her and her power spikes/curves 2. Most players don't know how to properly manage waves 3. Most players don't know how to properly play match-ups. Akali needs much more than just "skill on the champ". Yes, being able to play her well is nice and all, especially when the enemy is dumb as a rock (like the Veigar in my last game, he was actually allowing Akali to get in melee range of him without using E or W or R, heck, I've seen him go close to her, for some unknown reason), but even if you can play her, if the enemy also knows how to deal with you, without knowing how deal with the match-up and how to manage the wave, you're cucked.
KazKaz (OCE)
: Balanced for all players.
You seem to want to be vague on purpose, so my question is, are you vague because you don't know how to reply or don't want to? Balanced for which "all players"? - All players that have her unlocked to the point where they can carry with her after the first 5 games? - All players who mastered her? - All players in lower elos? - All players in high elos? - All players in pro play? You see, what Riot wants to do with her right now is the 2nd one, balancing her for all players who mastered her. So by your "request", they do that, they balance her for "all players", just that those "all players" has a caviat, they need to learn to play her to be good.
KazKaz (OCE)
: My problem with her is that she's being constantly nerfed, even while she's only just "decent" at most levels of play. I do not enjoy playing champions who get nerfed into underwhelming states, then slightly buffed, only to be nerfed again. I personally have 0 issues with facing Akali, it's just that in terms of her being "balanced" there are enough signs to indicate that she can never be associated with that term given the current state of her kit.
Again, balance for who? You say she has issues and she'll never be balanced, but balanced for who? Balanced for the good players or balanced for the average player? You always need to ask that when talking about balance. For who?
Smyrage (EUNE)
: It's a complicated matter. Quite a few champions were designed with proper teamplay in mind, therefore those champs can be quite oppressive in coordinated play, but zero use in an uncoordinated solo queue match. We know that picking for example {{champion:429}} without a premade support is just trolling, especially if the support takes a mage or an enchanter, which renders her R quite impractical. Another matter is the mechanical intensity. Champs like {{champion:86}} are extremely hard to balance without making him a must pick in low elo, because in high level play he can't perform well because of his simple kit. My opinion is simply that if you main such champions, you either need to play the game really good, or just simply learn a more complex champion, whose kit is actually useful in more situations.
I think it is fine to have a select few champions be made specifically for one side of the spectrum, as long as that's stated from the start and their balance is kept as much as possible, or even better, only around that side. To use your examples, it's ok to have someone as Kalista who's designed specifically for coordinated play and is pretty much useless without at least a duo, as those who do want to play her can if they do find a duo and put enough time. Same goes for champions like Garen, where they just can't become pro play viable (even tho Garen won a game, as ADC), it should be stated from the get go that "this is the highest where you can go with him unless the stars align". But champs like this are a design choice, and player skill has much less impact than on champs like Akali or Aatrox, where the problem comes from how rewarding they are when played to perfection.
Rioter Comments
KazKaz (OCE)
: Akali's rework has failed and she needs either a revert or another rework
Balanced for who and for what? You see, there's a problem people don't understand. Akali is hard to play to perfection, but the pros can and such they show how strong she is when mastered, but then we see the "reworks" from the boards, which all they do is reduce the difficulty but keeping the same power level. Want an example? A guy suggested to remove the circles on the passive, and have it give her the empowered AA automatically after 1s from a spell hit. Just lowering the difficulty while keeping the same power level will actually cause her to get even more nerfed because she's now easier to execute so more players can play her. The problem is you either have her: - As a hard to play champ that is rewarding when mastered but pretty bad when played by a dumb dumb (unless played by lil' Jimmy from Plastic 12 against lil' Connor from Paper 3) - Avg skill level with avg reward. I for one love the fact that she's hard to play, makes it actually feel like it's rewarding to play a character I love. You don't like it, I don't care, you have Annie, go play her if you want something easy. Not everything IS and MUST BE for everyone. A-Sol was unique, few played him but those who did loved him, and well, then a rework and now you see the result, it's hated because it's not good. It took away what made him unique and turned him into another combo mage.
: No, neither of these have been overnerfed. They are exactly where they should be, albeit in Riven's case we should still give her a couple of patches before they decide. These idiots take 4 seasons to nerf Riven but less than a patch before they decide to buff her back. Edit : Literally none of those champions require buffs. Aurelion Sol straight up needs to be reverted.
Ok, so you know how if a champion's play rate drops, it makes the win rate drown slower? That's because the mains remain while those who only jumped on the champ because "freelo" leave, lowering the win rate impact. Well, after the Q CD nerf, not only did Riven lose around 5% play rate, she also dropped 6% win rate, and due to the above, if her play rate would've remain the same, her win rate would've dropped from anywhere between 7% to 10%. That is huge, considering Riven is one of the very few champs with an above 7% play rate who is mostly played by mains.
Sucction (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-30T17:23:41.722+0000) > > Even if she hits River Q, doesn't guaranteed a Wall Q. I've had quite a good bunch of people dodge it because they were sitting in the middle of the lane. > > She's an assassin, so how the early game goes is important. Don't feed her and she's not scary. It does though. River Q snares and then slows, there's not enough time to dodge anything unless you flash out of it.
There is enough time tho. I can guarantee there is because I've been on both sides of the deal and I've both dodged it and had others dodge my combo.
Saezio (EUNE)
: WOW what a bunch of bullshit. 4 dashes? So, she can dash towards you 4 times? AOE stun? First of all, that's getting removed, secondly it's a microstun for a negligible amount of time if you are anything bellow diamond. And akali has been so gutted that you need to be really high elo to be able to play her effectively, so if you are not in the top 1% of the player base and you still lose to akali, you are doing something really wrong.
I made a thread stating that Akali can be beat, at least the general ones you play against, not the high elo mains. I was told that just because I know how to play against her, not everyone should be forced to learn to play against her.
Sucction (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2019-08-30T14:25:16.116+0000) > > She only has 1 guaranteed Q thanks to her E, if you get hit by Wall Q soon after, it means you're too close to her so you can't dodge, but if you're too close to her in order to dodge and she can easily aquire Wall as well, then it means you're close to a wall. > > Positioning is key. And then you realise that her Q is going to root you, lining you up for another autoQ anyway. And to second that, it's virtually Impossible to not be near enough to any walls, brush or the river. Barely any places in SR can even get this.
Even if she hits River Q, doesn't guaranteed a Wall Q. I've had quite a good bunch of people dodge it because they were sitting in the middle of the lane. She's an assassin, so how the early game goes is important. Don't feed her and she's not scary.
musixxal (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-30T07:51:42.064+0000) > > How is it "wrong"? These are all literally just facts about her kit. > > Her combo is guaranteed, that's a fact, her Q tracks if she Qs during her E. > > Therefore her combo cannot be dodged. There is nothing subjective and nothing to argue here. because skillshots don't target themselves. if you're getting hit by everything she has then that's frankly on you.
Sadly, for most people conterplay only equates to "what can I do after X jumped on me?", nothing before, especially not the stuff that was done to allow the jump.
Sucction (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=musixxal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T17:27:38.072+0000) > > dude, this is so wrong that it's actually laughable. > i'll wait till my main is unbanned from the boards to post qiyana insights so that the boards can stop whining about how to beat her and they can instead feel bad when beaten by her. How is it "wrong"? These are all literally just facts about her kit. Her combo is guaranteed, that's a fact, her Q tracks if she Qs during her E. Therefore her combo cannot be dodged. There is nothing subjective and nothing to argue here.
She only has 1 guaranteed Q thanks to her E, if you get hit by Wall Q soon after, it means you're too close to her so you can't dodge, but if you're too close to her in order to dodge and she can easily aquire Wall as well, then it means you're close to a wall. Positioning is key.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=000200010000000100000001,timestamp=2019-08-29T19:24:55.724+0000) > > Typical, "I have no arguments so I will resume to trolling the comments". > > Janna has good ganks, sure, but she has no clears. > > Brand and Zyra can clear quite well because they are mages, not enchanters. > > Notice the difference? 1st quesiton you ask when you want to think of an off meta jungler is "can they clear fast/healthy?" Both Brand and Zyra can clear both fast, and depending how good you are at kiting, healthy. Janna can't either. So by that logic, just because you trolled doesn't mean she's viable in the jungle, even if 2 other support picks are. > > As I said, look at what it offers in that role, Janna can't offer jack because she can't clear. > > Morgana and Zyra, along others, were mid laners, now they are mainly supports (tho Morgana is still a solid mid laner), Vi was a top laner, Blitz was also a top laner, Nidalee was a laner. > > You need o actually think of why something works in another role to have a reason why it can be viable there, not the "I decided to troll in a 5 man". If you said "Kha'Zix can be a good support because evolved W has a 90% slow for 2 full seconds", I would've taken you more serious, I have a friend who does that, and has nearly 60% win rate on Kha support in over 40 games. Is Kha'Zix support the new breaking meta pick? Not by a landslide, but is he viable there? If your ADC doesn't troll and plays safe till 6, he sure as hell is. > > Notice the difference? There's a reason why he picks Kha'Zix support, there's something that the champion offers that benefits the team. Ever tried Ashe + Kha'Zix bot? Hell that's one tilting lane combo, after 6, if ya get hit by either's W and have no quit way to defend yourself, just embrace the gray screen. Is Kha good in any match-up? No. Is he good with every ADC? No. Can he be picked and win lane without it being a smurf/troll? YES. No. It is an argument. Just because something CAN be played in a different role doesn’t mean it’s effective. You CAN play Darius adc. Does that mean it’s good? I CAN play Ezreal top. Does that mean it’s good? But once an adc becomes good in another role. They get gutted without mercy. They are the only class that it only allowed by riot to be played effectively in one role.
I see the problem you have. You're mistaking "viable" with "optimal in any match". Being viable means you can take that pick and have success without being a smurf, optimal in any match is just the meta stuff. The pick doesn't have to be the best in said role to be viable. Ornn works in the jungle, he is viable there, same for Twitch. Are they the meta? No, but you can pick them.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=0002000100000001,timestamp=2019-08-29T18:37:00.832+0000) > > Just because it has little play rate doesn't mean it's not viable. > > Viability means the ability to go to that role and win it **__IF__** the player playing the champion in said role has enough skill to perform properly. > > Off role builds are off meta, meaning they need a whole different skill set than playing them in the intended role. Playing Kai'sa jungle is much different than playing Kai'sa bot lane. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOB1TiCq_Mk&t=6s > > Or what about stuff like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFArYvYW0Zc > > You see Twich jungle smurfs with super high win rates, why? Because he can't be played there? Twitch, Graves and Kindred are the marksmen (and markslamb) of the the jungle, ask anyone if Twitch is a viable jungler and if they have any remote idea how the game is played, the answer is yes. > > Ask anyone, especially in the higher elos if Tristana is a good mid/top, and well, you get a smashing "yes" reply: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkh0YB5ooHg > > Karthus is now a meta jungler, but if you asked anyone right before he became a meta jungler, they'd either say "hell yea, he's busted there" or "no he isn't, he barely is played there". Now he's played almost exclusively there. > > Go look at tier lists online, from Pro Guides to Mobalytics, to others, consider Syndra a, A tier bot late pick, but do you think that means you pick Syndra there and stomp? She's much more viable than many other mids in bot lane, and you've seen it happen even in pro play. > > Can you win your role by being better (without being a smurf)? Yes/no, why? > > Can you win with Ornn in the jungle? Hell yea you can, and it pucks a punks as well. I don't Ornn jg in ranked, but I like to do it in normals (hint: I get put against higher ranks in normals than in ranked), on the other hand, Virkayu does a hella lot of Ornn jg in ranked, he even has a guide for how to play off meta champs, here's a good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6lEuHHXH-o > > Your autofilled Kayn support doesn't count, we're talking actual players picking the champion in that role with an actual plan for an actual reason. And I mean, he specifies exactly what off meta means: "These champions were clearly made for another role, but they offer something that lets them be viable junglers __**in the right hands**__" (it's a jungle vid, so ofc he talks about the jungle, but same logic applies to any lore) > > To properly play these champions in another role you need a different skill set, but if no-one looks for what else can they do and where else could they be played, would you find something new? Taliyah jg? How many cried that she's unviable after her Q change, then she just proves that she's became the best jungler, she's even viable in the jungle even now, granted, in high elo. Karthus jungle, did anyone would've considered him a good jungler unless they actually sit down and considered what can he offer from there? > > What's viable is also an effect of what's meta now, so pick viability is divided either by "does it do exactly what the meta requires?" and "how can it counter what the meta does?". > > Also, let's not forget {{champion:81}}. During the course of his lifespawn, Ezrealy was played in every role, every way, tank, ap, ad, mix, sustained, burst, you name something and Ezreal did it (at least the Korean ones). Using your logic, because I trolled around with 5 people and did ad jungle Janna that means Janna is now a jungler? Mkay
Typical, "I have no arguments so I will resume to trolling the comments". Janna has good ganks, sure, but she has no clears. Brand and Zyra can clear quite well because they are mages, not enchanters. Notice the difference? 1st quesiton you ask when you want to think of an off meta jungler is "can they clear fast/healthy?" Both Brand and Zyra can clear both fast, and depending how good you are at kiting, healthy. Janna can't either. So by that logic, just because you trolled doesn't mean she's viable in the jungle, even if 2 other support picks are. As I said, look at what it offers in that role, Janna can't offer jack because she can't clear. Morgana and Zyra, along others, were mid laners, now they are mainly supports (tho Morgana is still a solid mid laner), Vi was a top laner, Blitz was also a top laner, Nidalee was a laner. You need o actually think of why something works in another role to have a reason why it can be viable there, not the "I decided to troll in a 5 man". If you said "Kha'Zix can be a good support because evolved W has a 90% slow for 2 full seconds", I would've taken you more serious, I have a friend who does that, and has nearly 60% win rate on Kha support in over 40 games. Is Kha'Zix support the new breaking meta pick? Not by a landslide, but is he viable there? If your ADC doesn't troll and plays safe till 6, he sure as hell is. Notice the difference? There's a reason why he picks Kha'Zix support, there's something that the champion offers that benefits the team. Ever tried Ashe + Kha'Zix bot? Hell that's one tilting lane combo, after 6, if ya get hit by either's W and have no quit way to defend yourself, just embrace the gray screen. Is Kha good in any match-up? No. Is he good with every ADC? No. Can he be picked and win lane without it being a smurf/troll? YES.
musixxal (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sucction,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T15:24:11.979+0000) > > I'm not arguing for her balance, nor do I feel positively nor negatively about it. > > My issue is that her kit is 100% guaranteed in any situation she dictates. If she's engaging on you, she'll have snare Q prepared, and it becomes a targetted 600~ range dash into a targetted snare (it auto tracks if you hit Q during E), into Auto EarthQ, with an ult in there if she's not able to kill with that combo. > > It's 100% reliable, and that's just...not really how healthy assassins operate. There's a reason leblanc and Rengar are hated so much, and it's because reliable assassins are unhealthy. > > This is coming from someone who mains them as my primary class alongside mages, so no bias here. dude, this is so wrong that it's actually laughable. i'll wait till my main is unbanned from the boards to post qiyana insights so that the boards can stop whining about how to beat her and they can instead feel bad when beaten by her.
I mean, I agree with you. If you stay near a wall when she has River Q prep, then who the hell is to blame? You for misspotioning or the Qiyana for abusing your mistakes. I got more kills on my enemies as Qiyana because they positioned like potatoes than because I actually had to outplay them.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6d03VmQM,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-08-29T08:43:03.955+0000) > > Currently Rat jg, Tristana mid/top, Vayne top, Va(a)rus mid, Jhin top. > > Koreans had abd still use Caitlyn mid as a pocket pick. > > Kai'sa at the high elos is also played jungle. > > Ashe and MF were the supports and I've seen some even recently having success. > > Koreans recently picked up solo lane Lucian again. > > The biggest problem with "ADCs have nowhere to go" is not that they can't go in other lanes, but you need a hefty amount of skill on both the champ and as a player to pull it off, but considering a huge amount of ADC mains see the only real supports being Enchanters or Braum/Thresh, what would you expect from them when they would be forced to play alone. Entitlement of the ADC mains is matched by none, not even the Zed mains. Everything you’ve mentioned has under a 1% play rate. The only one even close to true is Vayne top. For the entire week that was viable. Oh and guess what. She was nerfed through rageblade because of it
Just because it has little play rate doesn't mean it's not viable. Viability means the ability to go to that role and win it **__IF__** the player playing the champion in said role has enough skill to perform properly. Off role builds are off meta, meaning they need a whole different skill set than playing them in the intended role. Playing Kai'sa jungle is much different than playing Kai'sa bot lane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOB1TiCq_Mk&t=6s Or what about stuff like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFArYvYW0Zc You see Twich jungle smurfs with super high win rates, why? Because he can't be played there? Twitch, Graves and Kindred are the marksmen (and markslamb) of the the jungle, ask anyone if Twitch is a viable jungler and if they have any remote idea how the game is played, the answer is yes. Ask anyone, especially in the higher elos if Tristana is a good mid/top, and well, you get a smashing "yes" reply: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkh0YB5ooHg Karthus is now a meta jungler, but if you asked anyone right before he became a meta jungler, they'd either say "hell yea, he's busted there" or "no he isn't, he barely is played there". Now he's played almost exclusively there. Go look at tier lists online, from Pro Guides to Mobalytics, to others, consider Syndra a, A tier bot late pick, but do you think that means you pick Syndra there and stomp? She's much more viable than many other mids in bot lane, and you've seen it happen even in pro play. Can you win your role by being better (without being a smurf)? Yes/no, why? Can you win with Ornn in the jungle? Hell yea you can, and it pucks a punks as well. I don't Ornn jg in ranked, but I like to do it in normals (hint: I get put against higher ranks in normals than in ranked), on the other hand, Virkayu does a hella lot of Ornn jg in ranked, he even has a guide for how to play off meta champs, here's a good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6lEuHHXH-o Your autofilled Kayn support doesn't count, we're talking actual players picking the champion in that role with an actual plan for an actual reason. And I mean, he specifies exactly what off meta means: "These champions were clearly made for another role, but they offer something that lets them be viable junglers __**in the right hands**__" (it's a jungle vid, so ofc he talks about the jungle, but same logic applies to any lore) To properly play these champions in another role you need a different skill set, but if no-one looks for what else can they do and where else could they be played, would you find something new? Taliyah jg? How many cried that she's unviable after her Q change, then she just proves that she's became the best jungler, she's even viable in the jungle even now, granted, in high elo. Karthus jungle, did anyone would've considered him a good jungler unless they actually sit down and considered what can he offer from there? What's viable is also an effect of what's meta now, so pick viability is divided either by "does it do exactly what the meta requires?" and "how can it counter what the meta does?". Also, let's not forget {{champion:81}}. During the course of his lifespawn, Ezrealy was played in every role, every way, tank, ap, ad, mix, sustained, burst, you name something and Ezreal did it (at least the Korean ones).
: Adcs complain when other people go into their lane because that’s the only place they can be. Any time they go out of those lines rito guts them. No other class has this issue except enchanters. Assassins can go mid, top, jungle and now support Bruisers can go mid top and jungle Mages can go mid top and jungle Tanks can go top jungle and support. Where can a traditional adc go? Entirely bot lane.
Currently Rat jg, Tristana mid/top, Vayne top, Va(a)rus mid, Jhin top. Koreans had abd still use Caitlyn mid as a pocket pick. Kai'sa at the high elos is also played jungle. Ashe and MF were the supports and I've seen some even recently having success. Koreans recently picked up solo lane Lucian again. The biggest problem with "ADCs have nowhere to go" is not that they can't go in other lanes, but you need a hefty amount of skill on both the champ and as a player to pull it off, but considering a huge amount of ADC mains see the only real supports being Enchanters or Braum/Thresh, what would you expect from them when they would be forced to play alone. Entitlement of the ADC mains is matched by none, not even the Zed mains.
Rioter Comments
: They need to rework her for high plat to low diamond instead of keeping her as a pro-tweaked champ. Most players can't play her because of how she's designed she has to be nerfed for them. Pros will either insta pick or ban her because of she's designed. This isn't something that can be balanced with a few numbers, her kit is just unmaintainable for any elo. She needs a rework to take her out of pro hands.
And what's bad about that? I don't get it, why should lil Jimmy from Plastic 12 be allowed to play any champ? GM and Challengers can play her, she's good in high elo as well, not just pro play, so what's the issue?
Zoli Ben (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=SEKAI,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ouIEbI5B,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-08-27T08:58:32.546+0000) > > What's with Riot's vendetta against Taliyah? > > I was for sure she would be receiving a Star Guardian skin. It's such a no-brainer and it would be a good PR move for some good reputation revenue for Riot. > > But nope. > > I guess Riot just hates Taliyah with a burning passion. That is the only possible explanation. She has 2% playrate at maximum, thats half of Urgot's 4% so yeah, bad money.
Taliyah only has her release skin, which being honest, is quite poor quality. The only reason she got SSG is because the pros chose her. Taliyah may now have a 2% "general" play rate. In Challenger she's at 6%, GM is 5%, M is 4% and D and bellow 2% and bellow. She's still a good champ, and for a while she was the most terrifying jungler in the game (proof that Rito doesn't do skins only for OP champs, as she still got nothing even when she was stupidly broken in the jungle)
Antenora (EUW)
: ADC's don't like Mages bot lane.... But ADC's are unviable in Solo lanes or are** highly niche picks** ({{champion:67}} {{champion:236}})
Don't forget: {{champion:18}} Also Koreans had {{champion:51}} mid for quite a while this season and she still is a pocket pick for some midlaners.
JackMcCarry (EUNE)
: Close, he actually rocks a solid [48%](https://u.gg/lol/champions/zed/build?rank=bronze) in bronze and a [54%](https://u.gg/lol/champions/zed/build?rank=iron) in iron, which sound crazy, but then you see it's because for some reason it only counted 238 games in iron (strange)
Can't say it's not true, U.GG updates daily, so it's not unheard of shifts like that. Few weeks back, from U.GG, he had no negative winrates, as in, nothing under 50.5% in all ranks from Iron to Challenger, his Challenger at the time being 62%.
Antenora (EUW)
: Plenty of champions should not be played in bronze - Yasuo - Vayne - Zed - Riven - GP - Irelia - Fiora - Yuumi - Bard - Thresh - Pyke - Ryze - Cassio - Azir - Akali - Draven (Unless Turbo smurfing) - Rengar - Lee Sin - Elise List goes on
Zed last I checked a few days ago had an ~56% wr in Bronze and Iron, so he clearly is an overpower pick there.
: About Akali - maybe you could change the functionality of her passive to not have the circles? I feel like having her mobility and sustained damage output being so conditional really hinders her in areas not Masters and higher, similar to how ryze was before the e and shield changes. I was thinking a good change could be to have the enhanced auto be available after a flat time, like 1 ~ 1.5 secs, and she would still get a speedboost (hopefully smaller) during this time.
I'm sorry, but I for one don't like that change. Look, I get it, nerfing for pro play and buffing for solo que isn't the worst idea out there, but the worst idea is "taking skill away so lil' Jonny from Plastic 12 can master it easy". Look what happened to Zed with all the changes they kept making. No-one feels like Zed takes any skill nowadays. Don't get me wrong, we all know it takes a good amount of skill to pull of those perfect Zed plays, BUT, his kit is so straightforward and easy that anyone can do quite well on him, and for a good amount of while, Zed's lowest win rate was 50.5%, in Bronze, rest all above 51%, even now he's lowest win rate is 49.6%, with an avg playrate of 13%. Lowering the reward for the skill but also lowering the skill needed can make a champ more balanced in solo que without breaking them in pro, but what you're suggesting is keeping the reward and lowering the skill, which would only make her even more broken in pro. Lower the reward but still keep her as an actual high skill champ, not make her so everyone can play her.
Smyrage (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9qGYwByQ,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-24T16:43:50.526+0000) > > He just commented again on this thread saying that for him it's "neutral objectives 1st, ganking 2nd" but then in the same comment complained how "laners don't help him with objectives". > > I mean, if we got no priority, he doesn't help us get priority, then he gets collapsed on, not our fault. > > Hypocrisy at it's finest. The only exception is that ganking benefits the jgl and the specific lane if it's a success. Taking the Drake benefits everyone, so the team gets a huge advantage if they take. And it's such a shame that you think that "Drake is low priority". Drake >>>> 300 Gold. The thing is, you are crying that "dem toxicity in EUNE", but the fact is, that many players' problem is actually presented in this thread: wrong mentality and pettiness. You take it personal, that the jungler didn't gank you, when he was miles away from you and you are expecting him to stop raiding the enemy jungle, just to help you, but you are refusing to help him with something, which benefits you as well. So all in all, the post creator clearly has no idea how jungle works at all, but lectures others what they should be doing, and it's just another empty complaint, flaming the junglers. Seeing your match history, you are a mid main, correct? I lost much more games, because mid messing up all the time, than I lost because the jungle didn't gank. Worths a thread for it, doesn't it?
Here's the deal, if I'm in a position to actually need the jungler to gank for me, then there's an actual problem, tho that problem is smaller than your reading problem. If I'm camped, I never tell my jungler to come and gank me, I specifically send them bot or top, as all I need if it's early is for them to put some pressure on the map so their jungler can leave me alone. So please, stop lying on how I said "I take it personal if the jungler doesn't gank me" when most of the time I actually ask them to gank other lanes unless the enemy mid is a free kill that I can't get alone (Yasuo sitting close to my tower while you're a Jax), I don't need a jungler to win me my lane, I need a jungler who's not 0-0-0 with the 20 farm down on a 10-0-4 J4, which sadly, it's exactly what you are. But let me put it your way: the only way a drake benefits the team is if you manage to take it, if you get contested and lose it, it benefits no-one but the enemy team, and you lose the objective because your team didn't help...wait isn't that what you said in the other comment? That laners "refuse" to help you? Gee, I love how this turned out full circle for you. Well, if the laners have no priority, they can't help even if they want, and if they have no priority, it most probably means that you can gank that lane as the enemy laner is past the middle of the lane, aka, gankable. You don't relieve pressure from the lanes, you don't get to call laners out for not helping, that's how it works. Sometimes all you have to do to relieve pressure is show yourself, not even needing to go in, just the threat that you're there can make the enemy back off and give your lane some breathing room, not like you for one would go and help anyway, but still. You say that laners refuse to help the jungler the same way I say that a lot of junglers refuse to help laners, so let's go with the idea that "they can't help eachother" for the sake of this argument. You get invaded at blue, but top has no priority to move and help you for free, he either has to sacrifice minions and tower plates to try and save you, or let you die. In your own words, it's more beneficial for him to save his tower plates and get the xp, so you die. Same applies for mid and bot, they can't help you because they have no priority. Now, under what conditions is a jungler unable to help at least 1 lane: - all lanes are losing so badly that any opponent from mid/top can 1v2, while bot can easily 2v3. But if that's the case, that game's over, it's just one of those unwinnable games unless the enemy team throws. - all lanes won, but not by such a degree to make a dive so you can't help them with that and they keep the wave in the enemy side of the map (if your lane has won and put up a freeze, you must be the worst jungler in the history of the game to think that ganking that lane "won't succeed"). But if that's the case, the game is most probably won unless your team throws. So except for those two situations, there's always at least 1 gankable lane where the gank can succeed. Also, I have no idea how the jungle works? Gee, you checked my profile and still believe I can't jungle? http://prntscr.com/ox29dm The only one with a bad win rate is Evelynn, I just can't make it, she's a feeder magnet, when I play her, no matter how ahead I get, or how ahead i put the lanes, people throw. But you don't believe me, I'm the bad player, so let's look at a few: - The exact last one where I ended up 0-3-0, my mid is also 0-3-0, adc is 1-6, top is 1-5, I could've even get off the ground before that game's over. But hey, you'll say that that one's just "bad luck", so the very next game after it (not the remake) - I end 9-9-4, my mid is 1-11-8, adc is 6-12-8, Tahm never joined the team at all, because he and Diana were flaming eachother all game. I tried helping mid, I ganked for her more than I should've, I ganked bot as well, tried to push the team up, but couldn't get it done. - Game prior to that, I go 7-8-4, my mid is 2-9-3, hard inting the Ekko early, she was 0-6 and I just couldn't gank the Ekko, I tried 3 times, he always got away because Kat had no damage and I alone couldn't push through his ult. Bot was vs Lulu Ez, that sure is easy to kill..../s - What about the game where I ended 5-8-5? That one I did worst so far, so it clearly isn't my laner's fault....oh wait, 0-8 top, 2-9 mid, 3-11 adc. yea, nvm. So yea, except for the Evelynn games as I get way more throwers there than for the rest, I think the other 3 junglers I play, Taliyah (50%), Vi (60%) and Kayn (56%) show that I'm quite capable to jungle, and even my lane win rates for ranked look quite solid, tho I've mostly crawled my way from B4 where I had to start this season to gold promos 3 times mostly as a jungler, so a support main doesn't get to tell me that I don't know how to jungle. Then again, I hope I never you on my team, or if I do, I'm dodging, no offence, but have you seen you KP? Even after clicking "show more", I only found 6 games where you had a positive KP regardless of lane or champ, all those games being hard stomps, your avg KP is 25-30%, you're just someone I can't count on. You're more lucky with the team mates than I am, good for you, I have to pull my wins out of my ass. In your last 7 ranked games, you got 11 winning lanes, in my last 7 ranked games, I had, not including my own, 5, so yea, I don't get carried as much as you do, I have to keep my team together trying to win them. Now, there's a reason why I put up all the stats to confirm myself, and it's not only to confirm that as a matter of fact, I do know how to play jungle, but also, to showcase something else, the exact opposite of what you said: "objectives benefit the whole team, but ganks only benefit the team when they succeed", and that opposite is __**BOTH**__ benefit the team only when they are a success, but you can win without drakes just as well as you can lose with 3 infernals. No drake can turn around a game where all your lanes are lost because you refused to help the team, but pushing out as a team helping eachother can win games where drakes aren't taken by your team, that's something I've had to learn the hard way, by having some of the worst junglers when I'm a laner and the worst laners when I'm a jungler.
: > [{quoted}](name=Smyrage,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9qGYwByQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-24T12:13:09.761+0000) > > As a jungler I must say that ganking isn't a privilege. It's an opportunity. Junglers gank when the opportunity presents itself. **S U R E** Let's be honest: junglers ganking or not ganking is based entirely on how they feel, not what *should* happen.
He just commented again on this thread saying that for him it's "neutral objectives 1st, ganking 2nd" but then in the same comment complained how "laners don't help him with objectives". I mean, if we got no priority, he doesn't help us get priority, then he gets collapsed on, not our fault. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
Smyrage (EUNE)
: Look, we can say the same, when you guys refuse to help taking the Drake or Herald (the latter can actually be soloed), because you'd rather get that 160 gold from turret plates, instead of helping your jungler to get something, which benefits you all. The issue is that most players think in shorter term and not in longer term, because losing lane =/= losing match, but many of you are tilted, when you lost your lane. Most junglers actually take advantage, when the enemy camps top so hard for example. Sure, it sucks for top, but quite many times the end justifies the means. I play ranked to win, and if it means that I have to sacrifice my top lane to get drakes, win on mid and on bot, then sure, I will do it, because the junglers primary purpose is to get the jungle objectives. Ganking is secondary. Also: midlaners exist as well, you can gank as well, but as jungler my primary focus will always be the objectives.
You swing.....and miss again. Go read the question I left for you on the other comment, then come back to reply with something that will show you actually understood what the problem is. Also, you just complained about laners not helping, then say that "ganking is secondary". How in the holy name of Ahri are WE, the laners supposed to HELP you with objectives when we need YOUR HELP FIRST to get priority and have the capability to help with the objective? You have a skewed understanding of what the jungle is all about. Then again, it's not like every actual jungle video is telling you to gank 1st so you have your laners to help you with the objective, but since you care about objectives and not the team, please stop blaming us for not helping you. If we got no priority, you try to get an objective and get collapsed on, know, we weren't able to help because we had no priority, and thus not able to move in and help you. Also, as you put it, if I can't ask for help because "objectives 1st, helping team 2nd", then you are not allowed to ask for help from us because "win lane 1st, you 2nd". Fair?
: Yes, she played it perfecrly, but a 100-0 through his passive in that sort time with no lead is still a no-go. Such a play should be revarded with a clear health lead that forces malzahar to play very defensive or even recall, but straight killing from fullhealth+passive within 1 quick combo is disgusting.
People need to open their eyes. Malzahar wasn't at 100%, he was at around 83%. Then, since people still don't know what to look for: HE DID NOT HAVE HIS PASSIVE WHEN SHE DID HER KILL COMBO. SHE STOPPED HIS PASSIVE WITH HER E WHICH IS HER MOBILITY SPELL. Almost all of the mid lane assassins could kill an ~80% hp Malz with no passive at level 3 in that lane, because Malzahar had no lane lead and most assassins have a way to take it off before the engagement. Zed Q, Kat Q, Talon W, Fizz quick in out combo, going in with Troll Pole then out with dash. Akali is the only one who would've actually have an issue there. Malzahar played it like crap, stop defending him and his lies. It wasn't an 100-0, it was an 80-0 where his passive didn't block any part of the kill combo and she used Ignite.
Eedat (NA)
: Lmao what? I have never heard someone say that once in 7 years of playing and you've heard that 12 times in 2 days? You need to work on making your stories even remotely believable
EUNE is a server know for being toxic, sadly. But yes, I did get that told that many times recently, that's why I even made this thread now not in the past. If I'd have that said daily, ya think I would've made it? Bunch of youtube videos about how you can "1v9" as a jungler came up recently. Skill Capped has one and I've seen a bunch of others as well, specifically stating the "you can 1v9", here, take a look yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrZehi3PKvc Whenever some big channels like Skill Capped, Pro Guides, Game Leap, etc, make videos about the jungle, junglers start becoming more toxic than usual. The Evelynn and Quinn I had earlier today both said that at different times when called out that they only go in to "help" when they can get the kills. The exact line used in the title was from a WW a while ago, Eve today said "I only go for kills because I need to carry" while Quinn after stealing kills and doing nothing else, not even ganking, "How can I carry you if I don't get the kills?" Variations of those 3 are what I've been hearing a lot these last 2 days.
Smyrage (EUNE)
: As a jungler I must say that ganking isn't a privilege. It's an opportunity. Junglers gank when the opportunity presents itself. If you keep overextending and pushing the enemy under their tower, then just don't expect a gank from your jungler at all, especially if the jungler can't towerdive. Some junglers can't really gank well prior lv6, you'd need to understand it. Furthermore taking sub-optimal picks for the lane you are playing on is just your fault, not the others'. And when the only way for you to perform is the jungler babysitting you, then I must say that it's totally your fault. Learn your lanes and stop taking sub-optimal champs for specific lanes.
You swing.....and you miss. Can't say I didn't expect such a comment when talking about junglers. I know how the jungle works, I'm a mid/jg main. When the enemy is constantly close to your team's tower, you're a Jax, and your mid laner is Qiyana, do you gank the Yasuo, while both are 0-0 and you're farming Raptors, all pre 1st back for the laners, you already backed and have your Skirmisher's, do you gank or not? If you answer no, congrats, you're my jungler. When you see the enemy jungler go top, it's Yi, top is Mordekaiser vs enemy Aatrox, Morde is 1-0 at that point, you're Quinn, you just finished top scutler: a) Flash to steal mid lane's kill? b) Go help Mordekaiser? If you chose "a)", grats, you're my jungler. If bot keeps asking for help, they are Vayne Leona, vs MF Veigar, you're level 8 Eve with ult up and just finished gromp, there's no control wards in that bush because it's already warded by your team, Vayne is 2-0 because MF inted twice but then started playing smarter, Leo has ult, do you: a) go mid, wait for your laner to die sitting next to them then ER to have the kill and telling your mid how you are much better b) help bot lane. If you chose "a)", grats, you're my jungler. Now you get the point? These are the 3 games I had today, out of 5. The other two had a Kindred farming S, so obviously helping the team was included as she needed as many kills as possible, then a Nunu who said it clear that he doesn't wanna gank. Junglers need to drop their ego, I mean, what, you ain't gonna reply to the part where I said "if your midlaner is hard camped, gank bot or top to create some pressure"? I never once said "go babysit a lane" or "don't try to get kills", I even said "you can still time it so you can get the kill, just do it while your team mate's alive, not wait for them to die before using your skills" Then again, 99% of the junglers feel victimized if you tell them to do their job. 10-0-6 J4 diving every lane to get the enemy dead while you're 0-0-0 Trollibear, still buffering, 20 farm behind when not even invaded "it's not my job to win your lanes" when told to help. And no, these types of junglers are not something I get "once in a while", they are something I get every single game. Some feed their asses off and lose the game, others feed the enemy 6 kills then rage quit, others take all the kills, do manage to carry and think they "barely won a 1v9" when the only reason they had to 1v9 was because they refused to help.
Rioter Comments
Zardo (NA)
: Because if they're an issue in pro they're generally also an issue in masters+
RE10 (NA)
: Issue is that outside of akali and qiyana mid lane is in a rather weak spot currently, azir wasn't good, it's just that everyone else is bad.
If that was case, Syndra would've been a top tier meta pick, as that's what she wants, everyone else to be worse than she is. Azir at the highest level of play is much different than general yolo que Azir. Azir is a monster when mastered, and if he also has a competent team to work with properly, he becomes something else, the true emperor at whom all those oppose him look at in fear and cower before him. Ok, that's a bit exaggerated, but not by much. He keeps getting nerfed because he is just that good, but his skill gating is off the charts. Zed is Garen level when compared to what Azir can do (not that Zed is too high above Garen when it comes to pick up and play, but that's another story).
: What's the tradeoff for Qiyana's low ultimate cooldown on such a high utility spell?
Good for objective control, non existent in base fights unless the enemy groups on the exterior wall, but inside a base is where she is at her weakest, no elements but rocks, so no passive resets, little places to hit.
Dukues (NA)
: Same shit happened to me yesterday. I get getting outlaned by better players (and in this case the enemy mid was better) but still.... like... i don't get wtf as a mage I am supposed to do to her. I am not the best {{champion:61}} but if I tried to poke her she would just do that combo and beyond out trade me. I even avoided walls most the time but fuck man..... so annoying. Literally every ad assassin mage w/e is so fucking annoying. They always have such mobility and insane burst damage..... really unfun for the game not going to lie.
You try to wither her badly levels 1 and 2, she's super weak at that point, but after level 3, only try to hit her when she's W as she needs to wait the Cool down again to go in for the pressure or force her to just hit the wave with you doing the same. Don't try to harass her directly but keep hitting her as well as the minions. If you can't do both, just focus on the minions while keeping her in a tether, by doing that, you force her to lose too much gold from creeps if she tries to go on you but you should also have a health advantage making you able to kill her or just force her out of lane (forcing her out is better than greeding for a kill).
: ***
That's the mentality on the boards, lowball what you agree with and high ball what you don't. I remember this guy, a Zed main talking about Akali around her release. His comment was something like this: "Akali is snowball reliant, but has the tools to go even at worst, which is not fair, if the opponent plays much better than her, she should lose lane, pure and simple" (note, I fully agree, or would fully agree if not for the next part of what he said, which was in the very next comment) "Zed needs to at least go even when in his worst lane match-ups, if he loses lane he's be useless, and since he's snowball reliant he needs to have the tools to go at even at worst or be able to win the lane in most cases". Exactly the opposite of what he wanted for Aakali. The boards will never change their opinion and would rather change the facts, "remove Electrocute and Ignite" says it all.
Ifneth (NA)
: Like other posters have said, you made a lot of mistakes. 1) Playing to the enemy’s win condition rather than yours. Assassins like Quiyana want to trade and fight, while mages like Malzahar want to push and poke. You tried to fight Quiyana even after getting lane control and a health lead, which you could have used for a free gank, turret plates, or recall. 2) Ignoring level lead. Quiyana was Level 3 while you were Level 2. That’s over a kill of base stats and a whole extra ability difference, right when they mean the most. That all-in was her one window to turn around a terrible lane, and she seized it. Tilt-proof Quiyana kept her cool and nerve. 3) Matchup knowledge lacking. Quiyana can punch through your passive and say hello to your health bar. Respect her ability to strip your shield or accept that even Malzahar has some bad early matchups. Also, playing Teleport into an Ignite Assassin leaves nothing to prevent an all-in, sharpening your push-poke win condition to a requirement. Overall, respect Assassin burst and focus on the fundamentals I showed above.
And don't forget: staying near the wall she's she has an easy time hitting close range Qs instead of at the middle of the lane. Positioning like that is also a huge mistake.
Honorable (EUNE)
: yeah that's why i ban this champ. literally i'd rather play against zoe and akali compared to this level 3 oneshot from full health champ. i love how triggered qiyana abusers defend this champion "lol you walk past minions to qiyana you lose" thats sounds delusional. no champ should be able to do that especially to a malz with passive up
Malz didn't have a passive there tho. He did in theory, not in practice. She broke his passive with her E, which is used solely for the mobility. So all her actual combo went through when he didn't have passive up, hence why I say that he didn't have the passive up. Also, can you tell me why is he staying near a wall against her instead of the middle of the lane?
: TBH, the second death was a total rookie mistake, a total flub. The first death, really, what is the counterplay? NEVER AT ALL ONCE be in her massive E range? lol. she has one fucking long sword and she's globaling a defensive oriented mage. Talon could do something similar to this, but his W has very apparent counterplay and gives you plenty of time to react to it. This is a point and click skill that roots you, then refreshes her passive and Q. It's just not okay. It's never going to be okay again.
Counter play doesn't mean only "what can I do after she jumps". Wanna know what he could've done to not die? Sit in the middle of the lane. Nothing more was needed. I explained in 2 or 3 other comments why that was all he needed to do, so I won't do so again here. Think of it similar to Camille, you don't want to stay right near a wall, but that's exactly what he does. On top of a lot of other mistakes.
: > But then again, those are poorly played by Malzahar as well, so.... ...The dude is literally either behind his wave or trying to get some poke out as a mage with a passive who blocks the first ability. At this point, your definition of "poorly played" is playing a mid mage against an assassin and having the guts of even leaving fountain...
You can't see why he played it so bad? Well, since you clearly didn't read my other comments, lemme give you a quick TL:DR. He didn't try to push wave as he used everything on her, putting himself hugely behind on XP, he positioned worse than a potato, and he greets like no other. Why do I say he's a potato at positioning? Qiyana can't use the EQ combo to root because his passive lingers for quarter of a sec, so where should he stay? Not sure, somewhere like the middle of the lane? Sitting there prevents her from jumping on him, as her E is fixed distance and would've landed her in tower range with no way out other than Flash. Also, being in the middle of the lane allows him to dodge the QWQ combo simply because he has more room to move and there's distance between them, but where is he staying? Next to a wall.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=000700000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-23T08:53:53.076+0000) > > It's easy: see something you like? Lowball it hard. See something you don't like? Highball it. > > Just look at the replies from the math I gave. Even if Qiyana's E is no damage, they kept adding it in, and even tho Zed would've broke Malzahar's passive before the engave if he had the same lane lead they insist that Zed's double Q would be blocked. > > Yes, in another scenario, say vs a TF with no gold card available, Qiyana would do more damage, a good chunk more, but Zed is the safest assassin while Qiyana is the least safe one, so of course she has to have something else. Her utility is good in Baron fights but hot trash in base fights, can be forced to lose her Q CC before a fight and depending on where the fight takes place, it can be gone for good for that fight. > > The majority will look only at the strong side of what they have and weak side of what they like. the boards are largely incapable of understanding how different kits can interact with each other. so as far as they're aware malz' shield never should have been popped in that engagement until her ice Q could whiff. i just gotta mention again the execution from this qiyana is fantastic lol, how this malz doesn't flash away when she tumbles for her rock Q i just don't know. i've had to flash away, i've seen people flash from me, it's occured with all manner of champions not just qiqi, flash out of leblanc chain, or flash out of fizz's E, or talon's second W proc, or just flash away from zed's shadow. shit is nothing new and i hate this thread for thinking it's some brand new shit. when these champions execute correctly, they get kills, surprise lads.
Let's not forget that for 90% of those guys (and I'm being generous) counter play only refers to the part where they get jumped on. If they can do so getting after they get jumped on, then it has counter play, if they can't, there isn't. Similar to how Malz wouldn't even be considered kill worthy if he was sitting I the middle of the lane where she had no way to jump on him and where he had enough room to dodge her Q, if any was thrown, but hey, sitting exactly on the wall is clearly not a mistake, what do we know? And I agree, that Qiyana was flawless, and I'm not talking only about looks.
Velasan (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=00070000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T18:08:29.651+0000) > > Well, I don't think he'll believe it, he seems to think that he did everything perfect, was the one baiting, etc, but from what it's shown and how perfectly she executed everything, I'm leaning on believing that the one actually baiting was her and those "bad trades" she took were calculated. In all fairness you are right about players being rewarded for landing combos. However, the argument is not whether you should be rewarded for landing the combo it's that the reward here is too high. Also, mechanical complexity is different for different people. Some people are naturally better at micro mechanics like chaining together combos. Sort of like the difference between street fighter or magic cards, where one is about positioning and chaining combos together and the other one is about strategic turn style game play. League as a game needs to reward multiple play styles, you should not get an auto win just because you can chain a combo together. By the same notion how much should a champion who is not an assassin be rewarded for landing their combo? What other champion will instant kill someone with their combo that early? Qiyana doesn't even bother me I'm just asking. Honestly she will probably just eat a damage nerf in a patch or two and her kit otherwise isn't that bad conceptually.
That's a good point, but how high the reward should be also based around what else is available. Let's ignore the situation in the vid, as except for naysayers, most assassins could've killed Malz there due to missplay. Look at Zed, he is the safest assassin, has easy wave clear, no mana, free last hit assistant, long harass range (just his Q has 900 range). His level 3 WEQ + Electrocute can chunk the vast majority of mids to around half HP. And if timed correctly and/or correctly predicted the move pattern, not the hardest to hit either. Now look at Qiyana. She's the assassin with the least safety. Her kill combo can be used to wave clear if shoved, true, but if she uses it that way she has to wait for W to come off Cool down twice to be able to try for a kill, and from my own experience, getting showed in makes it stupidly hard to go for kills when they have a level advantage, most probably HP advantage, minion advantage and so on. In the vid, except for HP advantage, Malz had nothing. The reward of the combo has to also reflect execution difficulty, reliability, safety, etc. Bad plays from Malz doesn't mean she overdid anything. To use this Malzahar as example, since it's stupidly easy to pin point his mistakes. - he was level 2 to her already level 3, so he played it too defensively giving up lane pressure - he used all he had on her instead of the wave without having too much impact, and such, he lost more minions than he forced her to lose. - showed no respect. She's an assassin, even if she couldn't kill him, she would still force him to base because of how much damage assassins have (due to his lane disadvantage, all other assassins would've taken off his passive before going in for the kill, so saying "his passive would X" is plain stupid) - positioning......holy, he was crap. Staying near a wall will ensure she has the easiest time possible hitting her full combo, so not only did he show her no respect, he also positioned worse than a potato. - greed, self explanatory. I won't bother to explain how he should've laned against her from the start, but I'll explain what he should be done right before he greeded for the minion (Also applies when he tried to stop her back). Stay near the middle of the lane. At how close the wave was to his tower, she couldn't kill him. Why? She needed to E him to break the passive, but if he was in the middle and not at the wall, and her E being a fixed distance dash, she would've dashed right in tower range getting herself killed as she wouldn't have had the time to wait for the passive. If she would've tried to dash to him then go to the side not in tower range, she wouldn't be able to kill him as he could just sidestep the Wall Q. This was the biggest mistake, the one enabling her to get the kill, the last one, the greed was just the "go" button. So how rewarding a combo is is based on how hard to execute it is, safety, reliable CC, etc. Qiyana is the assassin with the least safety (I've played all but Fizz, so I can confirm it), her CC is reliable only in certain areas of the map, while in others she can be considered as not having any. Due to how her empowered Q works, forcing her to constantly use it for wave clear removes a lot of her kill pressure. Let's not even start on the skill gating. So yes, her combo may be quite rewarding, but the main problem is the current levels of damage. Considering everything, it's only "too rewarding" if the opponent is bad, in all other cases, it's just right. Edit: corrected some grammar, didn't notice what autocorrect did T-T
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=0007000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T21:19:25.281+0000) > > I did mention that Qiyana did around 440 damage when including runes, electrocute and etc, while if nothing else is considered, she would've done 468 damage, while Zed (since many said Zed wouldn't deal enough damage to kill) would actually deal 495 damage when not counting armor and runes, meaning that on the same setup, Malzahar would've died even faster to Zed than to Qiyana, and Zed's WEQ-AA-AA combo would've been much faster than Qiyana's full combo, which we can agree, takes quite a bit of skill to execute it that fast and perfect without fucking up (if I saw correctly, Malz died on the last tick of ignite, so if she would've done the combo just a bit slower, he might've lived) > > And someone posted the link of the match, Malz didn't have Boneplating. no boneplating, or second wind/dorans shield combo, means one is open to being lvl 3'd. like lol isn't hashinshin getting popular now? every single stream clip starts with a lvl 2 or 3 all in which he coinflips against tanks and juggernauts. how is everyone else playing league?
It's easy: see something you like? Lowball it hard. See something you don't like? Highball it. Just look at the replies from the math I gave. Even if Qiyana's E is no damage, they kept adding it in, and even tho Zed would've broke Malzahar's passive before the engave if he had the same lane lead they insist that Zed's double Q would be blocked. Yes, in another scenario, say vs a TF with no gold card available, Qiyana would do more damage, a good chunk more, but Zed is the safest assassin while Qiyana is the least safe one, so of course she has to have something else. Her utility is good in Baron fights but hot trash in base fights, can be forced to lose her Q CC before a fight and depending on where the fight takes place, it can be gone for good for that fight. The majority will look only at the strong side of what they have and weak side of what they like.
: > [{quoted}](name=Aazzlano,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-22T21:40:02.150+0000) > > level 3 Qiyana EQWQ with 1 auto does 332 + 434% bonus ad + 100% total ad > > passive, procced twice since it resets on W: > 23 + 55% bonus ad > 23 + 55% bonus ad > > Q, procced twice since its reset, plus bonus damage on low health: > 80 + 90% bonus ad > 80 + 90% bonus ad > 48 + 54% bonus ad > > W from single auto: > 8 + 20% bonus ad > > E: > 70 + 70% bonus ad > > > Zed full combo WEQ with 1 auto does 270 + 280% bonus ad + 100% total ad > > passive: > 6% max health, like 40 damage > > Q twice: > 80 + 100% bonus ad > 80 + 100% bonus ad > > E > 70 + 80% bonus ad > > > level 3 Qiyana EQWQ with 1 auto does 332 + 434% bonus ad + 100% total ad > Zed full combo WEQ with 1 auto does 270 + 280% bonus ad + 100% total ad > > hmm And you're not factoring in that Qiyana is allowed to slip in several more autoattacks, given how her trading pattern and mobility works. That guy's math is questionable at best.
My math's not off by more than like 10-15 damage, because I'm calculating for that scenario, not in general, while you calculate it as "in general" or "sub optimal" (like Zed throwing his combo when Malz's passive is still up while if they had the same positioning as in the vid, the passive wouldn't be up unless Zed missplay and doesn't break it, but we look at optimal play, so it should be down.)
Aazzlano (NA)
: level 3 Qiyana EQWQ with 1 auto does 332 + 434% bonus ad + 100% total ad passive, procced twice since it resets on W: 23 + 55% bonus ad 23 + 55% bonus ad Q, procced twice since its reset, plus bonus damage on low health: 80 + 90% bonus ad 80 + 90% bonus ad 48 + 54% bonus ad W from single auto: 8 + 20% bonus ad E: 70 + 70% bonus ad Zed full combo WEQ with 1 auto does 270 + 280% bonus ad + 100% total ad passive: 6% max health, like 40 damage Q twice: 80 + 100% bonus ad 80 + 100% bonus ad E 70 + 80% bonus ad level 3 Qiyana EQWQ with 1 auto does 332 + 434% bonus ad + 100% total ad Zed full combo WEQ with 1 auto does 270 + 280% bonus ad + 100% total ad hmm
Go redo the math correctly. I didn't do it for "who can burst harder" but for "can others burst this Malz". Qiyana's E deals no damage, take that away and recount, she deals slightly less that Zed by ~10-15 damage. I didn't count Malz's passive vs Zed because I placed them in the same lane positions, so if Zed wouldn't had broken the passive with a Q earlier then he's just bad. If they were in the same lane position, Malz wouldn't have his passive up vs Zed. So yes, although normally Qiyana will burst harder with the same combo than Zed does (we can also agree it's much harder to execute than Zed's), in the scenario above, if both Qiyana and Zed played correctly, Zed deals equal to a bit more damage.
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Rylalei

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