: technically it wasn't "nerfs" but instead that riot needed to "change" her obscurity/true stealth mechanic and her healing so that she couldn't have such an oppressive and non-interactive playstyle
I mean....a 42% wr, at the time the lowest in the game, was indeed "oppresive". Just as Akali's W is annoying people, Yasuo's W annoys people, so it would only be fair to five him a similar treatment.
: Yasuo as of this patch has 46.9% winrate, 10% pick rate, and 59% ban rate. Yasuo holding too much power in his kit is the funniest thing I've heard so far. His wind wall is on a 26 second cooldown level 1 and if you can't play around that then you're just bad at picking fights. There are a lot of mechanics in League that "negates" things and Yasuo's is one of the easiest one to play around. I'll agree with you that Yasuo is obnoxious and annoying to play against, I would know because I play a lot of Yasuo, but being annoying and being a strong champion are completely different things. If you're really complaining about something as ridiculous as this then I can say with 100% certainty you're below gold where players don't take statistics into account and don't bother to learn on how to play against different threats. And lets be real for a moment, only reason why this post is even getting upvotes is because 70-80% of League players are silver and below. No shade, just facts.
Well, when Akali had a near 60% ban rate, 5% play rate and 42% win rate, people still cried she needs nerfs because "she's unfun to play against even tho she isn't OP", and on those threads, almost everyone agreed that champions with that high of a ban rate needs re-balancing, so by that logic, Yasuo needs some power taken away and shifted somewhere else. It was accepted for Akali that win rate and pick rate didn't matter, it only mattered that she's unfun to play against at all ranks, and now Yasuo is in that spot, so why isn't it accepted for him to get changes but for her it was "mandatory"? Double standards and hypocrisy maybe?
: when balancing for NA it tends to be more balanced.
That's like saying "when balancing for gold instead of challenger, it tends to be more balanced". The eternal question: for who is it balanced? My opinion is that they should balance only for Korean diamond and above. Why? Those guys are known to be the best in the game. It's solo que so it solves the problem of "pro play coordination" and Koreans play ranked for 1 reason only: to win. So by balancing for their players, you ensure that the game is actually balanced when people actually learn how to play.
: Can we nerf Riven and Vayne yet?
Thing is, if you look at more than win/play/ban rates, you'll notice something different about Riven. - Diamond: KDA - 6.1/5.2/4.5 Gold: 11.134 (#41) Damage: 15.152 (#92) - Platinum: KDA: 6.4/5.4/4.7 Gold: 11.442 (#37) Damage: 15.943 (#90) Those are average stats, but I don't think they look like a champion that's "OMFGBBQCHOCOLATEBROKENOPIMBALANCED" as you guys make her to be. As for her mains, which Riot already stated that there are a lot more players with 100 recent games on her than newer players in that 15% pick rate. She is over rated, simple as that. Due to her huge main population I'm that play rate, it's only normal for her to have a positive win rate, it would've ment she's complete and utter trash if it was negative. No-one is denying that she's on the good side right now, but OP? Give me a break. Just because wins a game in which is doesn't mean she's carrying, and the stats above, in plat and diamond show that most often than not, she's just there. Not feeding, but not carrying either. Of course she's a problem in NA, NA, depending on who you ask is considered one of the worst regions skill wise, and how can she be a problem for the Asian side? Koreans ate the best players and some other countries in that region aren't a dumb dumbs either. I still remember watching a video from Skill Capped on how to lane when behind and one thing they said made me burst in laughter. " The mistakes Jax made aren't something you see often in high elo, but in lower tiers like Diamond, Platinum and NA challenger, the opponents will give you a lot of opportunities to come back from a lost lane". Maybe take a step back, tie your hands so you can't rage type a response, calm down from being enraged by being called lower skilled than the Asians, and think: - Why is she only a problem in the regions that are considered lower skill wise while in others where the players are much more skilled, she isn't? - Why anywhere bellow Master/Grandmaster/Challenger she's only there, not doing much for the win herself? She's a second Yasuo, if remotely playable, people cry.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: You can if you play a handful of hyper carry champs that are quite broken atm in soloQ and like you said have crazy skill. Also, you prob. need to duo a lot. He also go placed in plat 4 and ended up just in d4
Jay Sea does it ad well every season, in the top lane, and he doesn't pick his champion but has YouTube commenters pick it for him. The most called champion in the comments 9f the newest vid will be played in the next one. If he can do it and get from Iron to Diamond when he doesn't even decide by himself what champion to play, what's your excuse? "Skill doesn't matter when you pick hypercarry champs"? He had games where he got called a troll for the pick and still stomped.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QHvwUg3s,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-21T12:41:27.350+0000) > > Reverting the E nerfs would be making him busted again. > > His revive has to go, it's one of the reasons why he is strong on pro play while being Ryze tier on soloQ. > > Maybe this change fails, but it's a good try to maybe balance this overloaded champ Kayle gets an immunity, Trynda another long ass immunity to right click you to death, all these can stay offensive while extending their lifespan whereas Aatrox revive just stalls.
Remind me, when was Feedamere played in pro play last time? And I don't mean winning, but going like "hey, finally I'm picked". Aatrox wasn't only played, he was murdering it.
Skuxballz (OCE)
: TBH if it isn't ranked, there is no need to balance it. Norms gameplay is boring and not orientated for the win. If you want to just have fun, play ARAM or ARUF.
Update: you want to tell me that this is a fair match: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/448473930810916864/558379962219102245/Screenshot_20190321-220216_OPGG.jpg The number of games played is a tad skewed, not sure why, as that Vayne is a Vayne main with over 520k mastery
Skuxballz (OCE)
: TBH if it isn't ranked, there is no need to balance it. Norms gameplay is boring and not orientated for the win. If you want to just have fun, play ARAM or ARUF.
Yea...no. I find those 2 modes stupidly unfun and when I'm forced to do them by a quest I'm quite pissed. Normals need some sort of balance as well, regardless if some people take them more lightheartedly or not. I've met more tryhards in normals than ranked.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Infernape,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FpzwcIEY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-20T03:49:34.072+0000) > > Neeko's ultimate isn't a channel. It's just one huge cast time. > > Cast time abilities (like Lux's and Ezreal's ults) can't be cancelled by anything but death. It's the reason why she can ult Zhonyas herself. You sure ? since Neeko can move and Ezreal and Lux don't , something is different
Unless it got a hidden nerf, Ez can both E and Flash during his ult and it will go off from the place Ez started it regardless where he is now, because his ult is just a long cast animation, not a channel.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=00110000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-19T13:20:03.504+0000) > > Quite often really, at least when I play with my friends, as I rarely play alone. > > I haven't saw a Riven with under 70k mastery points yet, most being in the range of 100k to 150k. > > And I said you might be mistaken because I recall Riot saying that a majority of her her player base are people with around 100 games. I gave the 12% as an example because I'm not remembering them saying the exact values, just that Riven mains outnumber those who just try her out by quite a lot. > > Anyway, Rylalei is leaving the building. Yeah, i fully believe you when you say the majority of riven's playerbase has a ton of games. However, the key distinction is that not only her playerbase is playing her right now. Her pick and ban rate are far too high for that to be the case.
Yes, understand that, but, how much is the majority and how much is the randoms? We can't know for sure, so it's nigh impossible to know for sure if she really is broken or not, the only real data we have from Riot points that she isn't broken, let's look at 4 examples: 1. She has 5% of her playerbase as her mains and her current win rate. In this case, she's over powered. But this example is false because 5% is not a majority and Riot gave us the data. 2. 15 split in 2 is 7.5, 8% is majority, so let's roll with this for this example. At her current win rate with this ratio of main to non main, she isn't over powered. Why? Someone said that most mains have a 60% win rate on her, so let's roll with that. In order for that win rate the mains take her to to be brought down to 52%, then most of the non mains should be having quite a lot of bad games, thus indeed showing she may be a bit over tuned, but nowhere close to over powered because if something is over powered, most players will have a good win rate on her, thus not enough players to decrease the win rate the mains are setting up. If you raise the win rate mains have any higher, it will put even more power in the "she's balanced" argument because it would need even more players to feed on her for the win rate to be brought down to 52%, and if so many players feed on her so often, it's clear that she's not over powered. 3. Say 10% of the 15% are mains (opposite of 1), then at her current win rate, she's still not OP because it's just decent for a champion that has that ratio of main to non main. 4. 8% are mains, 4% are people who aren't mains but have around 30-50 recent games on her, 3% are non mains. While the mains have a higher win rate, the guys in 4% should be capable enough to hold a 50% win rate (let's be honest, if you're unable to hold a positive winrate after 50 games, then either you're bad or the champ is hard to play) and the guys in 3% are split into both positive and negative win rate. At this split and ratios, her general win rate is still too low for her to be over powered because this ratio is giving her quite a lot of positives with more than 12% of the players being able to hold a positive win rate and it's still just a 52%. If she was indeed overpowered, then in this example, because of the lack of enough players to drag down the win rate, it should be close to 60%, but it's not. No matter how you spin it, the win rate is too low for how her player base can be split based on the data we have. Is she slightly over tuned because of various reasons like Conq, Spear, etc? You could make a point for that, but in that case, it's not the she herself the problem but the thing that makes her such because without said thing, she's not over tuned, so it's the thing that needs the nerfs, not Riven herself.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=001100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-19T13:08:54.140+0000) > > Or it could be the other way around and you're misinterpreting it? > > Regardless, let's leave it at that as my day was crap at work and I'm no mood to continue this (no offence, not your fault, I'm like Scar at my workplace, surrounded by morons) Just ask you how likely it is that in 12% of every game played, there happens to be a player with over 100 riven game, riven isn't banned, and said player gets to have riven.
Quite often really, at least when I play with my friends, as I rarely play alone. I haven't saw a Riven with under 70k mastery points yet, most being in the range of 100k to 150k. And I said you might be mistaken because I recall Riot saying that a majority of her her player base are people with around 100 games. I gave the 12% as an example because I'm not remembering them saying the exact values, just that Riven mains outnumber those who just try her out by quite a lot. Anyway, Rylalei is leaving the building.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-19T12:33:30.966+0000) > > I think you misread or misunderstood what I wrote. > > The data Riot released about her shows that although her play rate is decently high, she is played almost exclusively by mains, as in, around 12% of that 15% are people who have around 100 recent games on her. > > That's why I compared her to Shaco. When I commented on how, at the time, Shaco had 9% play rate and 60% win rate, I hot told that he's hot garbage, weak, etc, and he is played almost exclusively by mains. Although they have no proof of that, unlike with Riven where there is Riot's data, it does make q good comparison. If a champion that's hot garbage and played almost exclusively by mains is allowed a 60% win rate without being OP, even at a resoectably high play rate of 9%, why is Riven called OP for a 52% win rate while being played almost exclusively by mains? There is data, Google it. > > Quite the opposite tho, it shows that Riven is in fact balanced, if not even being played almost exclusively by mains grants her a win rate of 55%. If she was indeed OP, then her win rate would be at least 60%. > > Which brings to Repertoir's comment on how it's just player frustration. Riot released data, she's not OP according to it. OP.GG, League of Graphs and the rest only label OTPs as mains, but you don't need to be an OTP to be a main. If you want to argue and dismiss the data from Riot, you need solid proof of her being OP, and anecdotal evidence is not accepted, as everyone can have a good game once in a while, especially in lower tiers where "how to play against X" is https://goo.gl/images/zum9U4 > > I mean, I played some Yasuo myself, here's my match history on him: > > https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/EUN1/219466781?champion=157 > > As you can see, I'm not playing him often, played him 6 times in 2 months and before that, the last time I played him was in September, yet I'm doing quite well on him. > > Now here's my Riven history: > > https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/EUN1/219466781?champion=92 > > As you can see, I suck at her, but even so, I've still managed to have a few decent games, and if you read on the boards, there are quite a bunch of "I've played her once and stomped, she's OP". Who's to say that didn't get lucky in that one match? Or what about those with their "honour" of "I won't stoop that low to play her" and just cry she's OP? The official data shows she's not OP while all those who cry have no actual proof other than anecdotal, if even that. I think you are misinterpreting what riot meant. 12% of all games won't feature a player with 100 recent games on riven. What riot meant is that when you look specifically at riven mains, a large number of them have a ton of games on her. However, this does not apply to all games that riven is picked. Riot has been pretty vague in the way they talk about numbers which leads to a ton of misinterpretation and misrepresentation. Any champion that has a 52% pick rate and 35% pick and ban rate is overpowered. That includes riven, shaco, or whoever else you want to bring up. Anyone that tells you shaco isn't overpowered if he has a 35+% pick and ban rate and 52% winrate is an idiot.
Or it could be the other way around and you're misinterpreting it? Regardless, let's leave it at that as my day was crap at work and I'm no mood to continue this (no offence, not your fault, I'm like Scar at my workplace, surrounded by morons)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2019-03-19T10:19:58.494+0000) > > But if Riven's winrate is just around 51-52% after the adjustment, and Riot confirming that around 80% of her playerbase are people with 100 (give or take) recent games on her, so pretty much lots of mains, wouldn't that means she's actually balanced, if not a little weak because even a lot of mains struggle to keep her wr positive? > > I mean, when I pointed out that Shitco had a 60% general win rate and 9% play rate as whileeee ago, I was shot down with "he's almost exclusively played by mains, and he has a lot of them, so they deserve a high winrate" and Riven's win rate isn't anything too spectacular for being played almost exclusively by mains, who apparently should have a high win rate on her. > > Or is the "mains only" argument valid only when it benefits certain people. 52% winrate with 35% pick+ban rate isn't really balanced by any measure. While a large portion of riven mains have a lot of games on her, she is being picked by a lot more than just her mains right now. Riot's point was that if you just isolate riven mains, you would expect them to have a higher winrate than most other champion mains because riven mains tend to be riven one-trick at a far higher clip than other champioins. However, we are looking at general winrates, not just those of riven mains. At 15% pick rate and 20%, she is obviously being played by a lot more than just her mains.
I think you misread or misunderstood what I wrote. The data Riot released about her shows that although her play rate is decently high, she is played almost exclusively by mains, as in, around 12% of that 15% are people who have around 100 recent games on her. That's why I compared her to Shaco. When I commented on how, at the time, Shaco had 9% play rate and 60% win rate, I hot told that he's hot garbage, weak, etc, and he is played almost exclusively by mains. Although they have no proof of that, unlike with Riven where there is Riot's data, it does make q good comparison. If a champion that's hot garbage and played almost exclusively by mains is allowed a 60% win rate without being OP, even at a resoectably high play rate of 9%, why is Riven called OP for a 52% win rate while being played almost exclusively by mains? There is data, Google it. Quite the opposite tho, it shows that Riven is in fact balanced, if not even being played almost exclusively by mains grants her a win rate of 55%. If she was indeed OP, then her win rate would be at least 60%. Which brings to Repertoir's comment on how it's just player frustration. Riot released data, she's not OP according to it. OP.GG, League of Graphs and the rest only label OTPs as mains, but you don't need to be an OTP to be a main. If you want to argue and dismiss the data from Riot, you need solid proof of her being OP, and anecdotal evidence is not accepted, as everyone can have a good game once in a while, especially in lower tiers where "how to play against X" is https://goo.gl/images/zum9U4 I mean, I played some Yasuo myself, here's my match history on him: https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/EUN1/219466781?champion=157 As you can see, I'm not playing him often, played him 6 times in 2 months and before that, the last time I played him was in September, yet I'm doing quite well on him. Now here's my Riven history: https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/EUN1/219466781?champion=92 As you can see, I suck at her, but even so, I've still managed to have a few decent games, and if you read on the boards, there are quite a bunch of "I've played her once and stomped, she's OP". Who's to say that didn't get lucky in that one match? Or what about those with their "honour" of "I won't stoop that low to play her" and just cry she's OP? The official data shows she's not OP while all those who cry have no actual proof other than anecdotal, if even that.
: Just a hunch but I think lolalytics winrates are across the board 1% higher than actual stats. Look at their winrate table and compare the win% and games played of champions above and champions below 50%. Also riot’s discussion about riven always pegs her winrate as 1-1.5% below lolalytics. That isn’t to say those champions shouldn’t be nerfed, they are all over performing even if you do adjust for the error, just a bit concerned lolalytics may be adding unnessary fuel.
But if Riven's winrate is just around 51-52% after the adjustment, and Riot confirming that around 80% of her playerbase are people with 100 (give or take) recent games on her, so pretty much lots of mains, wouldn't that means she's actually balanced, if not a little weak because even a lot of mains struggle to keep her wr positive? I mean, when I pointed out that Shitco had a 60% general win rate and 9% play rate as whileeee ago, I was shot down with "he's almost exclusively played by mains, and he has a lot of them, so they deserve a high winrate" and Riven's win rate isn't anything too spectacular for being played almost exclusively by mains, who apparently should have a high win rate on her. Or is the "mains only" argument valid only when it benefits certain people.
: Nami/Soraka are only “good” right now because all of the other enchanters suck so when the team comp “calls” for an enchanter support they will always be picked. Im not here to defend any of the other champions you listed though, just thought I needed to defend those two so unnecessary bandwagoning doesnt happen against them.
Sona would also like a sound with you, she's been an S tier support for the last 10 patches, sometimes even having the highest win rate in the game.
Blåsigt (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=00160000,timestamp=2019-03-18T05:21:34.190+0000) > > Why would he waste his cooldowns. He's an energy champ, he will regain his resources far faster than you and his passive lets him trivially CS while resering his W to WEQ electrocute combo half your health off if you so much as get within 650 range of him (which is longer range than virtually all the battle mages and matching a similar range to the likes of Lux and Ahri). > > Thanks to his damage buffs he doesn't even need to land more than 1 QWAA+ignite electrocute within his ult to get a kill, so he has no need for landing multiple Q's while ult is up other than against bruisers. > > Once he has 2-3 items he can outright kill either the ADC or support with just WEautoigniteauto, no Q's needed. He has cooldowns - attack when they are down (like with any assassin)
Attack who? The only Zeds I see doing bad are the ones who try to farm with AA against ranged match ups. All other Zeds farm with Q wanting you to push towards them so they can freeze or safely farm under tower, because his level 1 passive adds 30 dmg vs melee creeps and 20 vs casters. I did the math in another thread a while ago. So it has hard to miss cs under tower with, but you can't freeze against him either because he can break it with WEQ. Punish him when it's down? You need your jungler for that because he always stays back, and well, if your jungler's not able to help right away, sucks to be you. Zed right now is too safe and doesn't need to commit to poking. Did I mention they buffed the early CD on W, which he maxes last, being a buff to his safety?
: First two? Yes 100% without a doubt. Zed? He has far more counterplay than the other two, assassins get a lot of hate but the champ is unironically fine. If you build seekers and play smart even the best Zed's can't kill you and will fall off.
Ciotowaitalittle. Zed has a 50% ban rate in the stats from this thread and a strong win rate. When Akali had similar ban rate, half the play rate and a bellow 45% win rate, people kept asking for her to get nerfed because she's unfun to play against and many brought the argument that a high ban rate lowers the win rate because you get to play against stuff they are weaker against, thus losing more, and Zed fits that mark, with him on some sites having a 60%+ ban rate in D+. If that argument is true, then with a much lower ban rate, Zed would easily have way over 65% win rate, if not more, and if that's not OP, then what is? To follow up on that, if Zed is "fine and easy to counter play" then he's straight up unfun to play against no matter how bad the champ is (hint: he's anything but bad). Akali at one point had the lowest win rate in the game and people still banned her because they didn't had fun against her even if she was basically a free win almost every time, so Zed is anything but "fine" due to all the things combined. He's strong, he's unfun to play against and he's popular as well. No Assassin stigma there, Zed needs nerfs or a full rework. And no, don't bring up the "But pros don't play him", people use that argument only when it's convenient for them. If they want something buffed just so they need less skill to play it and that won't happen because said thing is OP in pro games, or something is nerfed because of pros play, then everyone screams and cries how pro play doesn't matter and how Yolo que matters because that's where the vast majority of players are, but as soon as something popular needs nerfs, the "he's not played in pro games so he's fine" comes up. Hypocrisy isn't an argument.
Rioter Comments
SCP 106 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UKINxF4z,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-14T14:24:23.013+0000) > > Korea - 65% > EUW - 68% > EUNE - 65% > JAPAN - 68% > OCEANIA - 65% > RUSSIA - 66% > TURKEY - 68% (Zed is at 77% there, first time someone is more banned than Yas) > BRAZIL - 69% > LAS - OMG! 57%! Below 60! > LAN - WOW! 55%! It's a fucking miracle!(Both Lan and Las ban Zed more.) > > Please, how is this even remotely okay? > > There are, counting Garena as one server and discounting PBE, only 13 servers. > > How is Yasuo viewed as okay while having >60% banrates in 9/13 servers? > > I wouldn't doubt China has a high banrate for him as well but i cant figure out LoL box. > > How can RiotRep bring up Riven only being an issue on NA, while Riot also ignores Yasuo, who is an issue on the majority of servers? > > Is this seriously not indicative that his design isn't healthy? > > Source: https://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ Okay listen, Most Yasuo banners ban YASUO because hes annoying rather than broken, They've admitted it, So bans don't mean jack, Being broken is broken, Being annoying isn't broken.
Where were you when Akali got gutted? Everyone agreed that her ban rate came from the fact that she's annoying to play against, not because she's strong, heck, she was weak, and even before her full gutting she dropped at bellow 50% wr in pro games as well. No-one wanted her to stay because they didn't had fun against her, so why is Yasuo allowed a pass when Akali isn't?
: well, the problem is that the professional players do not play the same game. They have the best equipment money can buy, mandatory training sessions, insider info on all of their opponents, Strategies and counter-strategies that they spend MONTHS EVEN YEARS DEVELOPING AND PRACTICING and they frequently make use of champions that are designed and balanced around that they ** NEVER GET THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITIES PROS SET UP FOR THEM** then in addition to that, so many of Riot's changes that have been implemented have had the **OPPOSITE EFFECT OF WHAT WAS INTENDED FOR PROFESSIONAL PLAY** and only inconveniences players in the process (such as the extreme bounties, first tower, minion wave pushing instead of neutralizing, so you have to waveclear whichever minions are perceived to be on the "winning" team by riot's programming....
Balancing around Koreans isn't balancing around pro play tho. Koreans are the best players in the game, so balancing around their solo que ensures that that feeder in Iron 4 and the rank 1 Korean player play the same game, solo que, and it's just player skill that differs. So if you balance around the best players, the game is healthy.
: Riven needs a few hundred games to master from what riots winrate per games played graphs show. However, you only need 100 or so to level out at the higher end of her winrate. However, the 13 percent playdate she has right now is almost all players with 85+ games with her.
And that's what those people don't understand. While yes, Riven is on the stronger side at the moment, her high play rate, even stated by Riot, is almost all consisted of "mains" who all have 80+ recent games on her, and if you play something for 80 games almost exclusively or very often, you are bound to be good enough to carry. When Shaco had 8% play rate and 60% general win rate, everyone tossed the "only his mains play him, so he deserves a high win rate", even tho the majority of his mains had around 80% win rate on him, and that was after the jg xp nerfs (glad the clown is gone, at least somewhat), so why isn't that applied to Riven as well? If say 12% of the 16% play rate she has are mains, then her having around 52% general win rate is just normal. It's nothing out of the ordinary, because even if other people may have a "decent game" once in a while, most of the non Riven players will feed if the opponent has any sort of idea what he's doing, she's not Pantheon after all, and even if the lane opponent is a dumb player and you get fed, you still lack the knowledge of when Riven is capable of entering fights, how to play them, etc, and you'll get dumpstered if the enemy team is somewhat capable. In lower elos, depending on site, she even has a negative win rate, so not even mains can save her good looking ass there.
: Riot, now that Crit ADCs are back..
Quinn didn't need her nerfs so a revert of those would be nice. I'll quote LS on what he said when she got nerfed: "It's sad that Quinn gets nerfed like this, she's in a balanced spot herself, she's just a product of the meta and when the meta will change to no longer favor her, she will keep her nerfs and be much weaker than she should be. Change the meta first and see how that affects her, if she's still too good, then nerf her, if she isn't then it's obvious she was never the problem". Then again, when will people learn to play something else other than carries that get killed fast?
SatomiKun (EUW)
: I don't think that we have to wait and see. The data clearly shows that she is too strong right now and her interaction with Ruunans and Rageblade is the cause of this. In the bot lane, when it comes to her direct ADC opponent, she **does not have a single bad match up**. She wins against every other ADC more often than she loses, many of them even by a landslide. And she actually wins against the engage tanks you pointed out, too. She can deal fairly well with getting dove with her ultimate, which gives her a shield and an AoE stun. For all I care, people can still keep playing Neeko as an on-hit ADC if they find it exciting. But her W interaction with Ruunans and Rageblade is an abuse case. She can get 2 procs of it with a **single auto attack**. This is kinda BS and should be removed. If after this fix she still is played in the bot lane position with an on-hit build, I am not against it. But overpowered mechanics should not be allowed to exist.
They can only go away when Yi's passive interactions with RB are gone as well. Why? Yi's passive works the same way as her W passive and it's allowed to stay. Yi can also get 2 procs of his own passive if triggers during a Phantom Hit, making 1 auto be 3, and well, each one applies all the on hits he has and since that auto was a Phantom Hit, you know where this is going. Plus the passive triggering during Phantom Hit also contribute to it's own stacking. One goes, both go. That's only fair. You said it yourself, busted mechanics should go, it doesn't matter if one champ is more played in high elos than the other, tho Yi having a nearly 7% play rate and 51% win rate in D+ is a bit concerning.
: I've never seen a Zyra Jng, maybe sole day I'll try her there
Just head on to Virkayu on youtube, he's the defacto Ornn/Zyra jungler, as those two are his pocket picks. He even has a video on how to play off meta junglers and he uses these 2 as examples.
SatomiKun (EUW)
: I actually think that Vaynes interaction with Rageblade isn't fair either, however, this is about Neeko. But at least Vayne doesn't get 2 procs of her W with a single attack like Neeko is currently able to do with the combination of Ruunans and Rageblade. When Caitlyn abused Ruunans to get her passive procs more quickly, Riot made this nerf to make her healthier by giving wider gaps between her passive procs. And her playrate might be low, but she isn't out long enough that you could really call her players experienced mains either. With this build, her playrate will increase too when more people notice how insanely strong she is and I doubt that her winrate will tank alot from that. Her interaction with the combination of Ruunans and Rageblade is too much, so I hope Riot stops this.
You need to wait and see. Her play rate is just too low to even consider correctly. You need to consider that her situation may be similar to what Quinn had. She wasn't busted, she wasn't strong by herself, but that meta favored her. Win rate isn't everything. Right now, top lane is full of people who play bruisers, no tanks to cc her, no champs to have easy engage on her. The match-ups she has there are good for her, but she's also made of paper and she's not building defensively either. Bot lane is similar, little to no hard engage. No Alistar, no Leona, barely any Thresh atm, everyone's Brand, Lux, Xerath and other mages. Those work good against normal adcs, but not against Neeko (Xerath's range can prove a problem for her tho, if Xerath is good, but if he isn't, then Neeko just out maneuvers him). GP can make short work of her on top lane with his barrels, a good Leona/Alistar engage on her can put her down and a 2nd engage will sent her to base. No-one is playing stuff that's good against her, almost everyone is playing stuff that she's good against, similar to how Quinn was back then. Quinn was the best top laner because all the match-ups there were favorable for her. Put a Pantheon against Neeko, see what happens, she's made of paper and he has a hard engage and burst...but....no-one's playing him. Stuff that's easily kitable and dodgeable is stuff that Neeko is good against, but that's what most play. So what about, instead of nerfing something new simply because it's good, why not buff something that's unplayed but good against her? Neeko isn't Viktor. Viktor had no bad match-ups, just even ones, Neeko has bad match-ups, just that no-one's playing those champs.
Azwel (EUW)
: Riven almost 54% winrate over 10% pickrate.
Riot released something about her, that unlike many other champions with high play rate, almost all her player have over 100 recent games on her. That was when she had 16% play rate with 51% win rate. So if her play rate got to 10%, losing amount, it is obvious that her win rate would go up as well. So far from what we know, she is unique in that aspect, and thus it makes a lot of sense about her win rate being high. Now, is she too strong right now? Hard to say as only Riot has that data, we can't say because of the above mentioned information.
Anatera (NA)
: Statistically, he's not OP. Of course, statistics means absolutely nothing when you're in the game and have to deal with his overblown kit. People ban him because he's an irritating chore to play against. Of course, Riot doesn't really care about that because they've become so disillusioned with the idea of FUN, that they'd rather pour over data and statistics, instead of asking how it feels to actually PLAY against him. They're not developers anymore, they're accountants. Keep giving me downvotes yasuo mains. It doesn't come across as embarrassingly desperate or anything.
Akali was gutted because of a high ban rate, that now Yasuo exceeds, as in, he now has a higher ban rate than what Akali had in her peak. And unlike Trashuo, she had a bellow 49% in high elos, and even when it reached bellow 45%, she still had a high ban rate and was deemed in need of nerfs because "she's unfun to play against". If that reason applies to her, it should apply to everyone.
Rioter Comments
: i think the worst part is during Vault you are technically airborne giving a Yasuo a free ult opportunity.
Not quite. Yasuo can ult only off of friendly airborne, so you can even use a Blast Plant near you and he can't ult, but if one of his allies uses a plant, he can ult. So basically: - His team makes you airborne? He can ult. - You yourself or your team makes you airborne? He can't ult.
: Nobody's going to talk about Shaco's winrate/current state?
Odd, I'm seeing him at 52% wr at 5% pr, but w/e. Now, I get it, losing 12% wr in the matter of days is something big, but it's not quite the reason you specify it. Since Shaco is my main ban, I regularly check his stats just to see if I should still ban him for the off chance of a Shaco player. Mid patch 9.2, after all the jungle nerfs, etc, I saw him at 60% wr with 7% play rate, and a few days before 9.3 hit, when checking again, he had a 6% play rate but only 48% wr. There was no hotfix for anything related to him during the patch, but something happened. It wasn't all the jungle and item nerfs from 9.2, because as I said, he did have a 60% wr at one point in the middle of the patch with a decent play rate of 7%, so it clearly was not the item and xp nerfs, but something else, as losing 1-2% wr in a few days on a champ with over 55% wr not something uncommon, but losing 12% when the player base got lower is something else entirely.
0XFallen (EUW)
: 1. Its currently a straight nerf after lvl 6 2. He has negativ win rate since several patches in plat+ according to champion.gg 3. His playrate might be high, but has a lot of mains as he is a very unique champion 4. he has a very low winrate up to late game where he is straight op bit garbage early, powershifting is needed
1. You sure are living a delusion, aren't you? According to the wiki, R gives Zed a 5 + 5/10/15% of the target's AD as bonus AD. Using Xayah as an example, at level 6, her base AD is 71, but let's assume that at that point, she has 100 (easier to do the math on). So if Zed kills her, since his ult is rank 1, he gets a wooping 10 AD, but due to the increase of Zed's bAD on Q from 90% to 100%, at least at levels 6-10, it's a neutral change, unless there's an enemy Jhin or the enemy ADC/Yasuo is super fed, but if that's the case, unless Zed himself is also super fed, he won't really be able to kill them unless they missplay. Now depending on how fed the enemy is, at levels 11-15, it can be a bit bigger of a nerf, or just insignifiant because of his Q buff. So it's an actual nerf after level 16, and Zed's late game is already strong. Levels 1-5 -- straight buff, 6-10 -- unnoticeable, 11-15 -- noticeable depending on how the game goes, 16+ actual nerf. 2. Champion.gg is already knows to be very innacurate. Leagueofgraphs has him at 51%, Lolalytics at almost 53%, OP.GG is under maintenance atm. 3. Proof? According to the boards, anything past 4% is not just mains, and only Riot can say right or wrong. If that 10% play rate is indeed just mains, then he's fine, but if it isn't, then he's not fine. Unless you can bring solid proof for Zed being played only by mains, then this argument you made is invalid. 4. I posted a screen shot with his win rate by game length. In case you missed it, here it is: https://prnt.sc/mj8b57 At 10 mins, his WR is 60%, between 15 to 20 mins, it dips a little bellow 50%, after that until 40 mins where it drops at 50% it goes up to around 56%, while after 40 mins, it starts going up to 100% at 50 mins. So basically, your highest chance to win against a Zed is between 10 to 20 mins, if you don't force the enemy to surrender or straight up murder them by that time, your changes to win against Zed are between "low-ish" to "Balance is a lie". EDIT: coding broken, it won't number them as I set them, so ignore the number listing.
Rock MD (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nzwqBHvR,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-10T20:10:56.826+0000) > > There is a difference between "noone's playing him" and 10% pr with, depending on tracking site, 25% to 30% ban rate in D+. > > Zed doesn't only have a high a win rate, but pick rate and ban rate as well. > > Then again, typical "pro play" argument. When something is bad in pro play but strong in solo que, people say that "it's ok, he's not played in pro play", but when something can't be buffed because of pro play, they all flock to "pro play doesn't matter, solo que matters because that's where the vast majority of players are". > > The hypocrisy is strong in these boards. I mean if you've read my posts I'm consistently in favor of high elo or pro play for balancing and most of the players on this board are bad. They hate Zed and would agree with you Zed needs to get nerfed.
Look, I'm with you 100% that balance should be done in favor of high elo and pro play, I'm a dota player afterall, and that's the norm there. But in his current iteration, Zed can't be good in pro play unless he gets to be pick ban level of strong, but that doesn't mean he's weak in solo que, and in solo que a 52% wr at a decently high play rate and a "high skill cap champ" shows he is not weak, even Masters+, which is decently high elo, a 57% with 9% pick rate is nothing to scoff at and call weak. So if Riot is dead sent to keep Zed as he is without giving him a proper rework to make him actually viable in pro play without him being broken, then we also need to discuss him in that context, as a solo que exclusive champ, and right he is quite strong there. So yes, in terms of pro play, Zed is weak, but in terms of solo que, he is anything but weak, and I'll point again, skill alone seems to not be able to overcome Zed, as if even Master players are having issues with him, and his win rate and pick rate there show it's the case, then there's a problem that can only be overcame by a 5 man communication that doesn't happen in solo que. If that's the only thing that can reliably shut him down, he needs nerfs for solo que. Unlike in Dota, because Riot balances for both solo que (too bad their point of balance is around P/low D) and pro play, we can't look only at pro play and say "because he's weak there, he's weak everywhere".
: can't help but wonder if riot does or doesn't keep track or what they did a few months ago ... as for their treatment regarding Yasuo well when a champ has been first pick and ban since he exist and yet is still, going unchanged you know for a fact that the only reason for it is that it is the most profitable champion for riot by far and as a company that's evolving more towards the profitability than the quality of their game why would they harm this champ?
Read the newest thread about gameplay in Dev Corner, they said Yasuo will get nerfs next patch.
Rock MD (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nzwqBHvR,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-02-10T19:57:12.095+0000) > > snip Before Malzahar's rework, Malzahar had a 53-55% winrate depending on the day. That's HUGE. So why didn't Malzahar get play until his rework? Because he had glaring weaknesses that were too hard to ignore. His ultimate required you to get in short range yet didn't you didn't have any tools besides walking up to them. His minions were awkward and provided not nearly the utility they do now. In the same way, Zed might be statistically overtuned, but he doesn't provide enough to the team, plus his predictable and outplayable laning phase leaves him with a lot to be desired. That's why people say Zed is bad. You'll never see him in a professional game until he has a more clearly defined role in the game.
There is a difference between "noone's playing him" and 10% pr with, depending on tracking site, 25% to 30% ban rate in D+. Zed doesn't only have a high a win rate, but pick rate and ban rate as well. Then again, typical "pro play" argument. When something is bad in pro play but strong in solo que, people say that "it's ok, he's not played in pro play", but when something can't be buffed because of pro play, they all flock to "pro play doesn't matter, solo que matters because that's where the vast majority of players are". The hypocrisy is strong in these boards.
: Why do people act like win rate means anything important when there is way too many variables for it too be taken at face value. All winrate is how much a champion wins not if there good or bad you can look at patterns in it that can help but just looking at a champion with a high winrate and thinking that means a champion is good and also thinking that it is enough to use to back up your argument probably means you shouldn't be using any statistics since you have no clue what a statistic is. Zed has a high win rate since you can easily snowball with him not because he is good like he is not good and the buffs are not compensation for anything they arw moving his power around that will result in him being better if you read the reasoning you would know this.
Well, then I guess someone who's present quite often with 9% wr and manages to snowball and win 57% of his games in Masters+ is "weak", and also, considering his general win rate is 52%, at 10% pr, for a champ that's "high skill and weak" looks to be a bit too high, or should I say, too easy to snowball? Plus, I gave you the screen shot of his winrate based on game length, the longer the game, the better his win chance, to the point where it even reaches 100% at 50 mins, basically meaning that if there's a Zed in a game and the game does reach that length, he wins it no questions asked. While it's true that 1 win rate alone isn't a sign of him being good, but all win rate's showing that except for between 15-20 mins in a game Zed has a high chance of winning it are quite a big indicator that he doesn't need compensation buffs. If you wanted to balance Zed to be more rewarding to play and better for the Zed mains, you'd lower how easy he can snowball and make it so that he rewards good players, not the R-1Q-E-AA = dead.
: How exactly did they make his early game safer? The only thing they changed is the second cast distance of W aside from some very minor damage buffs. The way I see it, they want him to be able to splitpush again like he did in season 4 and 5.
2 seconds less on early W, and since he maxes that last, his laning is safer.
Zed genius (EUNE)
: Ok so let's say that every Zed player of any rank is just a delusional biased dumb fuck for saying the champion is bad. Let's also say that every high elo player who knows Zed is garbage is clueless. Put all this aside, and let's just see how the changes play out. They might even end up being a nerf who knows yet
You sure love to miss the point, don't you? 57% win rate in Masters+ is tremendous, his over all win rate is 52%, so even in general play Zed isn't weak, after 40 mins, he wins pretty much every game he's in, plus, he has quite a decent play rate, or you gonna pull the old Shaco 1-2 punch "everyone who plays him is a main". His current stats and all win rates over a lot of ranks show 1 thing: Zed isn't weak, far from it. The only place Zed isn't picked is pro play, but that's an inherent weakness of all but 1 Assassin, LeBlanc. Akali was an exception because she worked in coordinated teams, but after how heavily nerfed she was, to the point where even Riot said she needs some buffs, it's gonna be quite a while before she sees pro play again. Akali, Aatrox, Irelia, got gutted for being good and when the final nail hit, they got no compensation buffs. Irelia just now is starting to get some power shifted around and added back into her kit, after being a 40% wr champ even in pro play. Zed on the other hand? Buff after buff after buff after buff. Excluding the QoL like the ability icon now showing how much time you have left to swap and bug fixes, here are all of Zed's changes till now from s8 (as s9 didn't had anything yet for him): 8.7: Q - Secondary bonus AD ratio increased to 54% bonus AD from 45%. - - Secondary base damage increased to 48 / 69 / 90 / 111 / 132 from 40 / 57.5 / 75 / 92.5 / 110. 8.6: Q - REMOVED: Damage being reduced on shurikens that hit the same enemy. R - Percentage of damage stored increased to 25 / 40 / 55% from 20 / 35 / 45% 8.4: R - Cooldown reduced to 120 / 90 / 60 seconds from 120 / 100 / 80. His last actual nerf was in 8.3, which was: Base health regeneration reduced to 7 from 7.092. And even in patches prior to that, Zed had a bunch of "compensation buffs" to his base stats, and when he finally gets an actual meaningful nerf, compensation buffs are straight out of the game, while other champs are left in the gutter. If Zed is indeed that "weak" as you people make him be, provide proof other than "Faker said so", as all of the stats show otherwise.
Rioter Comments
: “Akali - as expected is in a very weak spot.” This is the most blatant lie I’ve ever heard. As expected? If you guys knew if it’s going to be this way and you actually cared about balancing you WOULDN’T HAVE done this. Either you guys have no idea what you are doing or you don’t care about making Akali playable right now. As expected? Yeah right. *eye roll*
She got a new leading dev for her stuff, and the guy said that "the W and Q nerfs from this patch are a 0 power shift and will need further nerfs", (can we get that guy fired please?) Also, the new mentality of hard nerfs then steadily bring buffs is much better than the mentality they had in the past, so let's see how this goes, maybe Akali will become again my 100% most played champ in the last 20 games XD thingy as she once was. Bah, can't find that image, I might've deleted it by mistake {{sticker:sg-ahri-1}} So this will have to do (had a few autofill games back then) https://prntscr.com/g7ksfv
: Spear of Shojin is a testament to the utterly idiotic balancing in this game
I have a question: If people cry "damage is too high that even tanks can't tank", then how is it that 250 HP from the Spear is "too much bulk"? Like, those things contradict each other.
Görgoroth (EUNE)
: Hexdrinker is too strong in early.
You're asking for nerfs on an AD item, especially how much the boards love AD champs. Like that'll ever happen unless it's a whole item class that gets changed.
: How to balance Zed - Reward good players , punish bad ones. Make this happen - upvote.
I'll get downvotes, but what ever. Zed currently has a 50% win rate with a 10% play rate (depending on site) in D+ while M+ shows his (again depending on site) anywhere between 53% and 56%. 50% win rate at that pick rate is too high for a "high skill champ" Those aren't "he's in a bad spot for high elo". The only place where he's bad in pro play, but other than Akali and LeBlanc, assassins are bad there by default and only get picked when they are borderline overpowered.
: I mean the fact she can dip in and out of her w dropping and regaining tower aggro if you do it perfectly you can get shot 0-2 times.
Her W restealth timer is 1s, scales with game timer, so she will only be able to dodge tower shots after the 20 min mark when it gets to bellow 0.8s, and assuming she is playing it perfectly, so even now, if she gets out of W, she can't dodge a tower shot because of restealth timer. Meaning she already can't do that till later in the game, and can only do so if she plays it perfectly. But why someone who is playing perfectly rewarded? Not fair. - Boards
: Can you clarify about the Edge, I didn't understand, I have a peanut brain.
Instead of forming a donut making it larger, it gets smaller starting from the outside inwards. That wouldn't be a bad idea tbh, but her TTK still needs lowered regardless since it's a nerf to W
: > [{quoted}](name=Leetri,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=KlvQnRph,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-04T17:31:25.804+0000) > > It does affect your main rank, people are just being idiots. i mean, the splash is negligible. You only lose like what, 3 lp on your main rank? Basically like a dodge/
Well, not quite. Do keep in mind that Riot set it in such a way that if you lose TOO MANY offrole games the splash will increase, making so that if you lose, say 20 out of 20 offrole games and you're doing poorly in each, the splash can get quite high, and since we don't know if there's a cap, I can safely say that trolls who do that might end up losing 40 LP from their other roles when they lose an autofill game and that's 2+ wins worth of LP which can be a high punishment for trolls. These numbers I gave are all speculations so do take them with a grain of {{champion:157}} .
: yasuo's shield is for dealing with melee, not ranged? it's an advantage against ranged because unless they deal targeted damage(which conveniently almost all of his counters possess...) , he can use his E to avoid their damage easily and even be given an opportunity to engage yasuo, in exchange for his hyperscaling and mobility and utility, has the worst base stats of almost any melee, that's why he has a shield, because most other melee can crush him or go even easily i'm not sure about the surviving thing...it's hard to comment on that because it sounds like sarcasm?
Um...auto attacks are targeted. The shield makes him take less poke from autos. As for the surviving part, depends which, if you mean the one where I got called a cheater, if there's a way to show you the all chat, I would, if that's not what you ment, then it's a bit hard to explain. You see, yes, people do cry about "damage too high", but they are ok when they can kill something at a similar speed to which they are killed, but when they can't kill it, that champ is broken. If you didn't saw a week or so ago on the boards, someone cried about Lissandra surviving assassin combos due to Aftershock and that Aftershock should be nerfed so she wouldn't survive. 2 games ago, our Mundo was called names for being almost unkillable to the enemy team, we only lost it because Ahri kept spamming the surrender, Pyke went crit and Wukong rage quit when he went 0-6. "Damage too high" is an issue only when something kills people faster than they can kill it back, and it's understandable, but they also seem to hate when they can't kill something, even if said something can't kill them back.
: LeBlanc is nonsense
This will get downvoted because it shows a LeBlanc losing lane to an immobile mage that people seem to consider extremely weak, aka TF, and the guys even tell people to actually think, oh the horror, but for those who actually want to get better at the game, here, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W44vIaidMCM
: thought it was half a second. 1 second is around right, though it's still very dangerous for melee champions with that time we'll know soon enough still seems crazy that they avoid issues for so long...her stealth was already crazy unique and they thought that "obscurity" is what made it unique?
If you make the restealth longer just to make it easier vs melee, also remove Yasuo's shield. He needs it vs ranged but it's just free advantage vs melee. The reason for the obscurity was the almost full removal of her defensive stats as she's made of paper now and her stupidly high TTK, as almost anyone can kill faster than she can unless she has her 120s CD ult, and even then her TTK is still low due to the forced lock out. She needed that to be able to fight, bug people don't like it when others survive their damage, that's why they hate Lissandra as well, for them it doesn't feel fair when you survive, heck, a couple games ago I got called a cheater because I survived (red smite).
ORB1TS (NA)
: I find it funny how normies still use the term "noob" as if it is 2012
I for one find it extremely funny that Yi players call other champs "noob/brain dead champs", tho having players who kept crying to 1v1 give up and say it's a team game is also such a superb victory in itself because it just shows they gave up and acknowledged that you are better but still too proud to say it.
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Rylalei

Level 164 (EUNE)
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