: I asked for "lock in place times" Other champions also become locked in place when they cast certain spells I'm asking how does Zyra's time of being locked in place compare to other champions being locked in place.
Who knows, but not nearly as long - I mean for similar efective-ranged champions, not Xerath's Q, I'd look on Veigar, Brand, Malz, Swain, Heimer, Syndra maybe, etc.
: just change every single a to double a in champion names like Jaax, Braand, Vaarus, Caaitlyn, and Veigaar.
Only if we include {{champion:266}} , too. Aaaatrox. *Is someone screaming here?*
: I have 100 games played as Zyra this season. About 75% of those are mid lane. She was a solid mid until: 1) The huge nerf with her plan AI a couple months back 2) The Abysal Scepter / Banshees rework (Abysal was a great 1st item rush. Banshees is less damage, plus other mid laners grab it first which makes her much weaker) Now, she's decent into some match ups, mostly against champions that arent played a lot. Like Lux and Annie. Otherwise, she's pretty bad. The cast time is a problem, but the plant AI is the biggest issue.
It's kinda funny cuz as I posted this post, I went like 9/2 on Zyra mid, but I agree with your points. Yes, the AI change made the delay step out and the Abyssal/Banshee's is a catastrophy for almost all of my champions.
: Great late game? What elo are you and what keystone/build do you use? Versus any competent team with atleast 1 person doing shielding or hard peeling or hard cc means I cant get in without dieing even if I were to go roa. IDK, I guess I am just getting bad luck. But you are right about the changes, it doesnt fix her problems because you still cant stay in long enough to get off 3 autos without dieing and you cant get out easily unless you flash although SRS helps this alot. I can see where they are trying to take her though, with making her more auto based but then we have to deal with survivablity and itemization. Only 1 AP AS item in the game and a royal metric fuck ton of MR/Health items or MR/AD items. Banshees change threw diana into the sun cause you have to either risk getting close to pop the SS with W or E or Q and hope they stay in range for another after the first attempt failed....
You're right with the Banshee's/Abyssal change. The thing is, I don't play her as a oneshotting assassin, so I have a good time surviving in teamfight, I usually build one or two last items as tank. That and also I don't engage, I wait for my moment or just splitpush.
: So Grasping roots has in her in place longer than Cho by ~.1 seconds. Her roots are active immediately, can still hit multiple targets. It also can spawn Vine Lashers which will CC the enemy for longer than Rupture and can apply On-Hit effects. .1 seconds seems pretty fair to me.
Nononono, you still don't understand. 0.75 is the duration of **Zyra being rooted**. 0.625 is not the time Cho can't move, it's the time between the visual of the spell appearing and the damage + knock-up proc. That's just for the imagination, I'm not comparing cast times, those are different quantities, it's just for the comparison for people who don't play Zyra. Uderstand now?
: True, but I think they try ane keep champs ona pretty balanced level. Making sure abilites don't outdo another champions at an early level. Good suggestions however
Diana has been on the weaker side for a while, change of Abyssal Scepter was her last nail in the coffin. She sure needs a little buff, not to her lategame tho.
: I usually play Diana in a smart way at first. It helps a little bit
Of course, you'd feed your ass off if you didn't. Doesn't mean it's necessary when Riot can change it.
Rioter Comments
Auccuatt (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caUyt822,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-26T11:37:13.991+0000) > > Yes, there are other slower champions, but those possess a range that helps them to survive! {{champion:82}}
1. What are his cast times? 2. He's a juggernaut, not a squishy mage 3. He's got shield, heal and no resource to help him lane Literally comparing apples to pears.
: So her delay is comparable to other champions?
No, that's the delay after which the Grasping roots fire - his is the delay after which Rupture explodes when being casted. Everyone complains that it's unhitable because of how slow Rupture is. Plus Cho's tanky, even tho his casttimes are huge, too, Zyra is hella squishy and needs to kite.
Rioter Comments
Ralanr (NA)
: And usually dps mages can hurt tanks well since resistances are better against burst than dps.
Well that's not true either now since {{item:3194}} exist, this item simply removes a champion, Idk why noone builds it, it's actually busted and was not necessary.
Joxcab (NA)
: Galio is supposed to be the middle finger. You're not supposed to beat him as a mage lmao. Also, people have FAR less MR than they do armor, and same for itemization. Multiple armor items are generalists. That's not the case for MR items. Void Staff is also total percent pen, unlike Last Whisper which is bonus only. Stop whining.
> You're not supposed to beat him as a mage I did not know this is DotA or Rock, Paper, Scissors
Ralanr (NA)
: ... Mages are burst. Tanks counter burst. That's why mages are not massive threats to tanks.
{{champion:136}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:74}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:143}} and I left out many DPS mages because they actually have burst, too.
: I've never had a problem with people dodging my spells any more than any other caster. Do you have data comparing her spell speed to other Mages of similar range?
While the spells are slower, too, it's not what I have a problem with (see Zyra's E projectile speed 1150 vs Lux's Q 1200). I have a problem with her being basically rooted for 0.75 seconds when she's casting her E. You can compare that to Cho'Gath's Q delay, which is 0.625 s, which means there is a posibility of him casting Rupture after Zyra casts Grasping roots and still knock her up sooner to interrupt her spell.
Mig89 (NA)
: Because hes not a monster in pro play and is only good against people who dont understand how to play this game. Im not knocking anyone specific person, just a collective group's inability to rotate.
He's monster in low Elo, that is also a flawed design. Not gonna lie, tilted from my last game which he facerolled 1v5 with PD and DD, but that is it's own problem.
Rioter Comments
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=caUyt822,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-06-26T18:20:33.551+0000) > > She's basically unviable mid. She's a support champ, you might as well be complaining that she's a bad jungler.
Quepha (NA)
: Champ is extremely powerful, I don't know why you think she should be buffed.
She's basically unviable mid. I play her since season 4 there and it has never been worse. Yes, I think she needs to be buffed, but adjust might be a better word: take something from her when she supports. You might aswell be more specific, because her winrate does not say anything about "extremely" (while I understand it's not the only fact that shows champion's power) and my feel even about powerful.
Tseison (NA)
: That and her E needs a visual update as well.
It did tho, Idk if model of it, but recolor for sure
Vekkna (NA)
: The problem with her E is that tenacity makes it so useless for kiting anything you would want to kite. Seriously, you cc yourself for as long as you can cc most juggernauts and tanks. And when you compare Zyra's E to most "catchers," it's pretty obvious that Riot sees the self-cc, short cc duration, low damage, and low AP ratio as a huge tax for being able to cc everything in a line, whereas most catchers have far stronger 1-2 target cc spells. Then you also consider that Zyra's EW means that you still get a consolation slow even if you miss your E, and that's also very different from most other catchers. But then you have {{champion:134}} doing the exact same thing I just described, but with a far stronger cc and none of the tax. Seriously, just compare the actual numbers here. Syndra's QE can be cast while moving, has same stun range as Zyra's E, travels more than twice as fast, cc's for twice as long, does more damage, cc's everything in a line, and still has consolation cc of a slow *and* and knockback.
I was about to quote part of your comment and say "THIS.", but then I finished reading and decided not to, but instead: ***PRAISE***
AmazoX (EUW)
: To answer your question, She is the way she Is because when Zyra mid was viable, Zyra support was OP.
Well I did not ask a question like this because it's obvious, parts of her kit should be adjusted to weaken the support role - otherwise this rework goal failed.
: Yep and now her plants barely even target enemy players. What a let down.
I'd say hitting the skillshots to target champions actually reflects skill - or it would, if it worked better than I described in the post.
: I feel like her old Q paradigm (the circle) was actually better for mid lane. Now to dodge her q you just walk back because it's a thin horizontal line skillshot rather than a circular one. It's also worse for waveclearing compared to old Q.
What I think about why this shape was implemented (besides the Brand's W similarity) is that you can actually aim better to summon specific seeds, which the circle shape could've miss or not hit at all. But this change rendered the spell itself as a damaging ability very weak.
: Why always mid?? Zyra supp is okay, it is one of the few supports, where you can actually build damage and carry, instead of multiplying zeros
That's why, because only pussies that can't carry out of mid take her there.
Rioter Comments
: When Zyra goes full AP
I did not laugh Because Zyra **SHOULD ALWAYS** go full AP :') And mid.
: Nice comeback. Where'd you learn that, sixth grade?
: Nice comeback. Where'd you learn that, sixth grade?
I am Oto (EUNE)
: It's true that I didn't brainstorm that much on the bonuses of the passive, but my philosophy was that: - The first bonus is something she always has currently, so it's the cheapest (500g). Lower duration and better effect so it feels like a little sprint. - The second bonus is based on the fact that, usually, your enemies on botlane will at least have {{summoner:7}} and maybe even a healing support. - The third bonus gives Sivir access to kill streaks and stickiness, especially in teamfights, which occur around mid-game. - The fourth bonus is the most expensive because I felt like it was the most powerful to be honest. The idea of the passive is that going back to buy items can sometimes be an important decision to make. Should I go buy a B.F, or do I feel like I can do a double kill if the jungler is coming? Should I go recall with 2k gold or do I feel like I can handle anyone with my empowered spellshield? And I can swap the third and the fourth bonuses if you want to.
ADC always preffers the damage (in the ideal world they wouldn't, but we're here) and going into a teamfight without items is a bad option. If anything, I think survivability buffs would be better - if they would't encourage turtleing too much. What if it only gave the first buff that would scale with the amount of gold? Let's say, 40 (+ 10 per 200 gold currently holding) movement speed? With 1000 gold it would be 90 bonus MVS, which is a huge buff, but she would trade damage in that moment. Would need to be capped for sure at like 120 at most and/or have a short CD. If you put offensive power to this passive, it always ends up at the question about cost efficiency. Based on the math with {{item:3123}} , Grievous wounds cost 275 g (if needed, I can post the whole equation). Basically you buy it for 1000 gold with little MVS buff on attack as a bonus - and we could continue. Not to mention if their healing is high, you'll buy EC nevertheless, thus making part of her passive or damage irrelevant since midgame, from which the player obviously chooses passive.
: The joke. ------> Your head.
Intelligence. -----> Your head. Because this post was not about turrets dealing damage (which I agree they do not) and your comment was not funny.
I am Oto (EUNE)
: [REWORK CONCEPT] Sivir, the Battle Mistress
I like the Q change. The passive doesn't sound right - while thematically it's awesome, you need to look at what it provides gameplay-wise. This means that Sivir is rewarded for holding her gold and not recalling, which might be a good design for a late game champion that wants to stay in the lane and farm as much as she can, but I think different bonuses would be better (have no idea what bonuses tho). Ricochet is awesome, fits great thematically and works against her being feast or famine, great idea the gold scaling with level of enemy hit.
Noveross (NA)
: Azir rework Idea
And they say Azir now is overloaded.
Cyprusse (NA)
: Powerplant Zyra Skin
: Lol you think turrets actually do damage. You must be living in the past.
I did not say anything like this. The point is if you go to them, at least you TRIED to survive. But if you are still pushing a wave and then are surprised Katarina in your back killed you, don't be mad at midlaner.
: >happened to be nearby Yeah, it's called teamwork. When you see a potential combo and potential pick you move with your team.
Every champion does that and every other champion needs alot more effort to be able to do well like this. Lee and Yasuo both need to press a button and they do not even need to be THAT close to each other, just as far as even not a coordinated player always is, because Yasuo's ult range is just so long. That is called imbalance. This interaction is not uncommon in games where these champions are both, what OP described is a typical situation and that situation is absolutely onesided. And please, don't act like this combo needs any good coordination, literally everyone including the lowest bronzes could do that.
: Then it still accomplishes the intention, to lessen the use of it on ranged champions.
Not lessen, remove. It would not be a difference.
: You got outplayed by tight coordination. I don't see what the problem is. Teamwork should be rewarded.
Coordination like: Lee ulted a squishy and I happened to be nearby with my ult off of CD (and my kit tells me there's someone knocked up btw, I don't even need to pay attention); press. No, that's just a *too* good interaction.
Rioter Comments
Stusauce (NA)
: Ok well 1) So you admit, much of ez's damage is portioned to landing his Q (as I said already). Also Ez's late game damage does not compare to a hyper carry like Trist, because as I said, and you ignored, Ez does NOT build crit, and Ez does NOT have a true steroid. So, compared to a hyper carry, his late game, tank shredding damage, is not as high, even with botrk. Once again, take a full build tank and have full build Ez attack him. Take that same tank and have full build Trist attack him. I 100% guarantee Ez loses the race to kill the tank. 2) You brought up the fact that Ez does "just as much targeted damage" as other ADC's. That is incorrect for the reasons I mentioned before and that is why I proposed the duel I detailed earlier. That duel is not what makes him a hyper carry or not, but it's a good example of how his build/kit doesn't suit that role, OR that his targeted damage is not the same as other ADCs. If it were, he'd fair just as well as Trist, or Twitch, or Vayne, or any other hyper carry. 3) I wasn't arguing whether Azir is or is not a hyper carry, just pointing out that you're wrong to say that Ez is one. Your reading comprehension is bad and you should feel bad.
> So you admit, much of ez's damage is portioned to landing his Q (as I said already) I said Ez's **ABILITY** damage, not damage overall, so no, I did not admit anything - plus don't act like this long and fast skilshot is any hard to hit, I thought we already overcame the myth that "having skillshots in kit" doesn't mean the champ is hard to play or unreliable 2) So much blabbering, no facts 3) This is what this discussion is about, why wouldn't Azir be able to have a dash if he'S not hypercarry then?
Stusauce (NA)
: This is patently false. The term hyper carry and ADC are not the same. Ezreal is a burst oriented ADC, reliant on skillshots to maximize his damage output. He has a quasi AS steroid that is also dependent on landing skillshots. More importantly, his build is not a late game, tank melting build like a true hyper carry's. Trist with full build will 2-3 shot basically any champ. Ez, while his damage output is very high, does not have the same 2-3 shot capability because he doesn't build crit (or at least not nearly as much as Trist). True test to determine who would win a point and click DPS contest. Both champs with their respective standard max build. Walk into range and right click each other and see who wins. My money is on 2-3 shots to kill Ez, 5+ to kill Trist.
That's also funny, because this "burst oriented" ADC's main spell is on 4.5 CD without CDR, the spell that contains like 65% of AD Ez's ability damage budget. > More importantly, his build is not a late game, tank melting build like a true hyper carry's. Since when does he not build BotRK? Lol, talk about *platently false statements. > True test to determine who would win a point and click DPS contest. Ok so why do we consider Azir a hyper carry again? The only point-and-click damage source of him are his AAs and passive shots. Not to mention that this statement is just bullshit because- **WHY** would you judge it this way?!
Arakadia (NA)
: Azir's ult is not exclusively his shuffle. Shen's ult is exclusively his ult. You can take away Azirs shuffle and he still has his iconic ult.
And who said Shuffle has anything to do with the Emperor's divide? Hay5eed just said it's iconic for Azir, nothing different in any sort of way.
LankPants (OCE)
: Out of those the only hyper carry is Tristana, and compared to Azir her range is much smaller and she is far less safe with lower damages and a shorter dash range anyway. The fact that this is the list you could produce proves my argument. Ezreal's a hypercarry, really? He has the lowest sustained damage of any ADC in the game, he's the exact opposite of a hypercarry.
Lol, so many lies Both Tristana and Ezral can oneshot squishies way faster than Azir with their items for far less effort. What is funny is that you said that *something* is the exact oposite of a hypercarry and an ADC (=AD CARRY) aswell in one sentence. He carries as hard as any damage oriented champ with targeted damage (or be a little bitch using only max range skillshots that you never catch and carry as hard), your statement might be true if we were talking about maybe a tank like Sion.
: Ziggs doesn't have mobility, and I'd argue Caitlyn doesn't really either. Azir can move so far so quickly, but his range is also very large. That's a problem mooooostly just because the soldiers that chunk you CAN'T be killed. At least you can fight back Ezreal if he E's in on you. In fact E'ing in as Ezreal is like a cardinal sin of league, right next to chasing Singed. Azir risks nothing by using his mobility
No, **Anivia** does not have mobility They both have dashes and FAR longer effective ranges than Azir - which btw is like hundred times harder to play, you need to be rewarded for playing him correctly - and in what situation is Shurima shuffle/Azirsec less risky than agrassive Ezreal E?
Rioter Comments
LankPants (OCE)
: The shuffle doesn't belong on the kit of a longranged hypercarry. Azir ever having mobility was a huge mistake. He has to lose not just the shuffle but the entire E if his kit is ever to be balancable. Not removing it will just leave him in the exact same spot as he is now.
{{champion:51}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:115}} ({{champion:203}} {{champion:76}}) Yeah, mobility on a long ranged carry, **unheard of!** Edit: One might be interested in a fact that I support the immobile version of the rework. PSYCHE
Arakadia (NA)
: It would not be like taking Shen's ult from Shen because Azir's ult is not ONLY the shuffle. Shen's ult is ONLY his ult. If you remove Azir's shuffle, he still has his iconic ult, minus the shuffle.
: What job would your main have?
{{champion:143}} You expect me to say a gardener, but no. She'd be a butcher. Edit: Or a curly-haired streamer's buddy.
: It doesn't matter what the scenario is in real life. If you started a game, you should finish it. It may simply be a game for you, but every game is fun until someone becomes toxic.
What a disgusting lie. When you basicaly get oneshotted if you walk out of your fountain, noone has fun. It's just waiting until they end, which they don't, because they have fun oneshotting people as they walk out of the fountain.
Vishan (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Umbra Z,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=jkJAUBNU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-18T16:55:37.246+0000) > > I understand some games are winnable, but god some games are already decided, if their vayne is 13-3 at 25 min and your only champ with cc is afk just let the game go, sometimes you just cant win 'em NO WAY MAN. This one time my cousin told me that he won a 3 hour game that was a 4v5 and it's totally worth it to waste everyone's time on the rare occurrence that it would happen.
Is he unranked? Because from mid-silver higher that won't happen.
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Sexy Bisex Plant

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