Saranta (NA)
: It’s less about how much was kept, than it is about how much Riot cared. I don’t know too much about prerework Sion, but these other three are big reworks with a lot of changes and some callbacks to the previous iteration in the kit {{champion:3}} His Q resembles his old Q and W is a clear allusion to his old ultimate {{champion:83}} kept the ghoul mechanic, otherwise radically changed {{champion:6}} E resembles old ult (swap places with enemy) kept the Q and lock on mechanic These champions were changed quite a bit, unrecognizable to their old versions, but they at least tried to keep in mechanics and playstyles that feel like the old champ. They put in some effort. This is not the case with Aatrox. They wiped him away from the ground up, changing his playstyle drastically, and the only thing kept was the revive which made so little sense in the new kit that removing it made the champ feel better to play.
Sad fact is that all Aatrox gameplay was to jump in and click stuff to deaths. There was not much TO keep. They did try to keep draintanking and revive, and those were the only 2 distinct things that old Aatrox had.
: > [{quoted}](name=Revech,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EtdJO92x,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-12-07T06:26:16.743+0000) > > it's worth it even when you burn 10 LP and have a 1 hour timeout?
Lost game is -20 LP, comparable time loss, tilt and MMR loss. Dodge is a timeout and -10LP - except that this LP loss typically doesn't matter in the long run, because you are not losing MMR (so the system will give you more LP later on to offset that). So in reality there is just no long-term punishment for dodging.
: I agree with what seems like the main consensus here in that Karma should probably be a battle mage/enchanter hybrid. I'd keep her ability to sustain herself _(but scaling with AP)_, shield, and ms but drop her **_range_ **significantly so she needs to put herself in danger to be effective as well as nerf or overhaul her passive cd ult mechanic. Most battle mages have reduced range on their core damage moves * {{champion:50}} 850/750 * {{champion:8}} 600/700 * {{champion:136}} 650+ * {{champion:13}} 1000/600 Outside of Ryze, they are all under 850 range, but even he needs to get closer to deal his full combo; so I think Karma should stray closer to this aspect. If anything, I think her Q should be wider but shorter ala original Karma. ~~perhaps an almost fan-like cone~~ *cough* To offset this, perhaps her Q could go back to healing Karma with a few second delay, which maybe she can then choose to use on herself or give to her ally after 1 or 2 seconds with W or E. Further cementing her enchanter status ala Soraka, Nami and Rakan. To be fair, support/enchanter Karma already does this once she gets Athene, so I'd double down this aspect. I'd also appreciate it better that each of her abilities, like Senna, should have a enchanter and damage component. Lots of people have given ideas for this (including RQ healing zone, RW resistances, RE shieldbomb) which I think work well enough. I wouldn't mind losing out on some CC as well, as I don't think people pick Karma for her strong CC anyway; she should only have enough to be able to kite effectively and keep up her harass, that's pretty much it. But yeah, I'd basically exchange her burst mage and tank/warden-lite identities for a truer battle mage and enchanter identity.
Thing is, battlemage/enchanter identities are extremely conflicting - though it is not obvious at first sight. Enchanter weaknesses are being weak at 1v1, extremely squishy and providing almost no threat on their own. Battle Mage strengths are polar opposite of that - 1v1 beasts, hard to kill and biggest teamfighting threat on the team until lategame (or in some cases, biggest threat on the team period). Because properties of those classes "cancel" each other out, creating a hybrid between them leads to a mess - which is why both old and new {{champion:43}} iterations were always problematic. Now, it is probably not impossible to create a balancable kit that has properties of both those classes, it's just very hard. Because natural weaknesses of the playstyle are not achievable, it would require artificially "injecting" weaknesses into the kit, i.e. massive delays, hard to land skillshots, extremely poor early game etc.
Saezio (EUNE)
: When was the last time a DoT effect was introduced to the game?
So I won't bother to find the post, but they once stated that they don't like DoTs because they don't feel as impactful as instant damage, i.e. to make DoT _feel_ as powerful for the user as instant damage, it actually has to be more powerful.
: GJ Riot you somehow made the Jungle determines games situation worse
> Legit feels like the best way to win right now is to practice a top tier jungler But that has been the case for years and years now?
: You are rather petty in your language however you seem to be missing the point, all other positions get catch up exp, and jung is the most vulnerable to being repeat invaded and cut off from exp so removing catch up from them is a major issue. I question your claim of being the first to 18 as I have yet to see a single jung out leveling much of anything, even when watching higher level streams I see the jungs on level with a support and not actual laners. And you misunderstood my last point, this update doesn't seem to fix that as I in both my games and the streams I watch see people are still just hugging one lane and ganking it over and over, they just accept "I won't get enough exp period so no reason to try for it" and so they just pick a early game jungler and repeat attack the same lane. As a jungler I DON'T want to be able to just sit on one guy all game, I often refused to do it last season but now I feel actually forced into doing it, like camping one guy is literally the only way i'm gonna get things rolling now, especially if the enemy keeps invading my jungle. Your entire arguement seems centered on the flawed git gud mindset rather than discussing the issues with the system. I have heard people suggest systems where junglers don't get much exp even for kills on laners early game and making it so our camps come back faster and give less per camp while being faster to clear, a system of effectively making jungle farm much more heavily so if say one jungler ganks too much early and the other farms up he would be majorly ahead in order to punish that. I do not know if this would work however the current system seems to encourage what they say they want us to stop doing.
> And you misunderstood my last point, this update doesn't seem to fix that as I in both my games and the streams I watch see people are still just hugging one lane and ganking it over and over, they just accept "I won't get enough exp period so no reason to try for it" and so they just pick a early game jungler and repeat attack the same lane. They do it because it was _the_ jungle strategy in solo que for years now and they are used to it. Literally every time Riot tries to do something with camp, junglers try to keep the community hostage by spamming "we will camp anyway, even more at that", but a simple fact is that junglers camp spam consistently since preseason 7 when red wards were introduced, leaving the camped laner defenseless.
: Jungle Exp
> but heck I am seeing games where junglers do really well and are the same level as supports or lower, Yes you do. Those are games when junglers spend way too much time ganking with very little average effect per gank, and get punished for that - as the system intended. If you objectively check _your own_ match history, you will easily find examples of junglers 2 levels ahead on support, even when behind in KD or not extremely fed (i.e. 8-10 shaco, 3-3 le song, 3-1 kayn, 8-11 ekko). So it's kind of clear to me that it is very possible to stay at reasonable exp level. If anything toplaners are reaching too high levels compared to the rest (partly due to exp change, partly because now that junglers are busy farming and controling bot side we suddenly have too much "breathing space" to just powerfarm), but junglers are perfectly fine.
: Criticism =/= insults. Saying something is bad and giving genuine, good feedback on how to improve it is fine. Its calling the skin a worthless piece of trash and demanding that it be scrapped/replaced and saying that whoever made it should be fired that's the problem. And its not even the criticism or the insults that bothered Stellari. Its the knowledge that she failed to deliver a quality product to a community that she cares deeply about(if she didn't care she wouldn't feel that guilty about it).
> Its calling the skin a worthless piece of trash and demanding that it be scrapped/replaced and saying that whoever made it should be fired that's the problem. What if the skin is actual worthless piece of thrash?
: > [{quoted}](name=Tentaku,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WFlTyVpk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-25T18:31:59.412+0000) > > Nonsense, overall jungle XP was actually increased by 5% (or up to 15% for junglers that didn't clear krugs regurarly). > > The reason junglers keep falling behind is that they still think they are allowed to camp lanes for free, which they are not - as was intended with the changes. > > As soon as junglers learn to pace their ganks again, they will be back to reasonable XP levels. And then laners cry for ganks. And your also forgetting junglers CANT sit and power farm. Objectives are a thing. Like said flying lizard.
Objectives, like said dragon, also give XP to make up for XP junglers and laners lose when going for them. And if your laners cry for ganks, well it's up to you to listen. You just don't get to do this for free anymore - as it should be.
: Love how 3 roles all got invalidated.
> They just get SOOOOO MUCH MORE experience it’s not even funny. Nonsense, overall jungle XP was actually increased by 5% (or up to 15% for junglers that didn't clear krugs regurarly). The reason junglers keep falling behind is that they still think they are allowed to camp lanes for free, which they are not - as was intended with the changes. As soon as junglers learn to pace their ganks again, they will be back to reasonable XP levels.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tentaku,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-11-25T00:35:16.156+0000) > > Have you ever thought that if your teammate is 0-3 you are NOT supposed to be able to help them easily anymore? This is awful game design your suggesting. It's basically why we have these out of control snowball games. More importantly my MID laner could easily shut down top in the scenario and so could my bot lane duo. But for some reason the role that supposed to be best at that can't actually do it. Makes literally zero sense.
No, mid laner would pay in waves in plates - that is, gold and xp - for every try to help the feeder. Now the junglers pay as well - as it should be. > But for some reason the role that supposed to be best at that can't actually do it It is not supposed to be the best at it, and you thinking that only shows your bias.
Abrosis (NA)
: Is the currency your overall ability to actually affect the game? This isn't healthy for junglers. This has easily made it the least picked role in the game. Ofcourse you're a top main. Get out.
Healthy or not, jungle agency had to be reduced. You can not have a 5v5 team game where one player on each side has 50% agency.
BlackXIV (EUW)
: Except you CANNOT control objectives from jungle, lane priority is MUCH more important than smite now. Even if you try you give up tempo for it.
Oh my so 4 players combined finally have a way to oppose a single smite? Thats like... insanly unfair! Completely!
Abrosis (NA)
: Again i feel like the point is being missed here. If this guy was on the opposite team, he still couldnt 1v1 the 0-3 yasuo who cannot farm to save his life. Does that make any fucking sense?
Why yes. As a jungler you have perfct ability to force a numbers advantage (unlike this Yasuo). Use it.
Abrosis (NA)
: Imagine having a teammat go 0-3, has half your farm and is doing far better than you who is actually making good plays. Its bullshit.
You have to pay something for your superior ability to influence the map and control objectives.
: Riot seems to learn nothing from the past. Power farming meta is not healthy. The jungle being virtually afk for the first quarter or half of a match is not healthy. It is the reason why devourer was removed. It is the reason why Warwick was reworked. It is because the jungle doing nothing but a farm game for 10-20 minutes of the match is not healthy. Jungle was bad last season and it's worse now. And Riot professing a healthy change in clear paths is absolute crap considering the fact that pathing has been outright warped by the dragon changes.
> The jungle being virtually afk for the first quarter or half of a match is not healthy. It is the reason why devourer was removed. It was removed because the jungler would AFK farm for 20 minutes, and then come out of the forest completely unbeatable, not because we wanted more camping.
016 Hiro (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Tentaku,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-11-25T00:35:16.156+0000) > > Have you ever thought that if your teammate is 0-3 you are NOT supposed to be able to help them easily anymore? No fucking shit sherlock - you clearly mistunderstood me. Before in S9 I would be level 7 maybe 8 - So i could atleast try to shutdown enemy top. Now I could only mute crying Yasuo and ignore toplane for next 15 minutes
In S9 you could do 3 ganks for this Yasuo and don't even lose a level for it, freely denying any advantage that enemy toplaner generated. Now to deny a 3-0 advantage you need some massive outplay. As it should be.
016 Hiro (EUNE)
: My today's game: Me (Lee Sin) in jungle, my toplane (Yasuo), enemy toplane (Poppy) Me: Lvl 6 after few ganks one drake, one death, clearing camps - 0 time wasted Poppy: Lvl 10 Yasuo: Lvl 8 with 0/3/0 stats and half of Poppy's farm Yasuo ask for a gank - so tell me Rito how I am supposed to gank toplane now? This is fucking joke
Have you ever thought that if your teammate is 0-3 you are NOT supposed to be able to help them easily anymore?
Yenn (NA)
: Jungle EXP needs to be hotfixed, this role is now unplayable in games with good players
> These changes should be completely reverted. Most definitely not, impact disparity between jungle and other roles, especially the solo lanes, needed to be vastly reduced or this game wouldn't last another season. Sorry but falling behind because your lanes don't have prio is really no different then falling behind bacause your jungler doesn't has prio. Nor is getting invaded any worse then getting camped. Now, the nerfs _might_ have been too much, IMO it's hard to judge them immediately due to simultaneous dragon changes, but they were extremely needed and _way_ overdue. Junglers were allowed their "overlord" role in soloq in the name of dynamic pro play for way, way too long. So some help for junglers - probably yes, I can definitely see the struggle. Complete revert - plain and simple no, those changes overall pushed the game in better direction.
IainG10 (EUW)
: Range; range is the difference
When I get pushed out of lane by an immortal lane bully, what do I care if it is nearly unkillable {{champion:13}} with 600 range pushing me out, or actually unkillable {{champion:58}} with 900 range dash oneshoting me? Frankly, I prefer the former.
LankPants (OCE)
: I'm of the opinion that the best way to go about this would be a general damage reduction and not just a buff to tanks. The issue isn't just tanks dying too fast, it's everything dying too fast. That probably ends up being a small buff to tanks overall, they may still be slightly weaker than average but they'd be better and once the game's in a more palatable place we could always go back and look at tanks/tank items again anyway.
Damage is definitely way too high, thats right. However, nerfing damage across the board doesn't buff tanks, it actually nerfs them further, because it buffs in-combat sustain, both self-sustain and healers, which tanks always have trouble dealing with. Also if everything lives a bit longer you need tanks less. Meanwhile, buffing tanks indirectly nerfs damage, because a) tanks prevent damage dealers from dealing damage too fast by their CC, b) if tanks are playable then less spots in each game are filled by damage dealers and c) damage dealers need to use parts of their kits to outplay CC/damage tanks rather then just go for squishies right away (i.e. Zed is way less scary if he has to think about tank ulting them right after his R). So buff tanks, because they are unplayable, and then, if still needed, nerf damage across the board. But honestly, if tanks would be able to compete with damage dealers then most likely we will only need some nerfs to outliers, not across-the-board damage reduction.
Ulanopo (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XPgk5MhA,comment-id=000e0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-02T22:46:10.286+0000) > > Where else are you going to post it? Bad matchmaking is a gameplay issue. GD. I'm curious how you think matchmaking is actually a gameplay issue. Yeah, it affects your experience, but there's nothing you can do to affect matchmaking beyond choosing queue partners and when to queue. If there was a post about those things, we would leave it up. Otherwise, it's just griping.
See, that's the reason why people don't seem to like those changes. You have an opinion on what GP should be and some other poeple have another opinion on what GP should be, and despite the fact that they are both equally unfounded (one could easily say that matchmaking is _clearly_ a gameplay issue since it can lower quality of gamplay), you are willing to enforce _your_ opinion by means as extreme as removal of content.
: It's obvious that one of the pieces of feedback we're getting here is that many people remain unhappy with the moderation program. I will only ask to remind people that we're human. We handle so much every day that most of the Boards never see, including really serious criminal hacks and threats and vicious racism - that's a big reason that our process of curating the *rest* of the material here can feel so harried and imperfect - but people still keep saying things like "Fire the mods! Dock their pay!" here, seemingly oblivious to the fact that we don't collect any pay and are unpaid volunteers. I'll be happy to start a conversation with those who are unhappy about how the moderation program can be improved - maybe on another thread, I'll talk to Ula about it.
There doesn't seem to be anything to discuss, Ula is clearly willing to enforce his _unfounded opinion_ on what GP should or should not be.
: or play a tank, or play an echanter, basically anything but the mages. how dare you insinuate that they're killing the playerbase by not giving mages mana regeneration on their spellthiefs. mages don't even fucking belong in the support role, might aswell call it the apc role in your world
Enchanters do need mana too, however I think that's kind of the point. Enchanters were so dominant over tanks in past two seasons that as soon as they took only 3 of top 5 support spots, their playerbase started crying "we're gimped".
: It's 12% **missing** hp, so likely 10-11% max HP. That's further reduced by the GW on Ignite to about 6%. 6% max HP. During any trade where ignite is likely to make the difference, which we can assume is early level, thats....about all of 60 hp. Are we actually complaining about 60 hp on a kill?
I don't think Triumph letting someone survive early ignite is a problem, but it teamfights it can definitely be problematic. Especially when multiple people on one team take it and they all get the heal from a single takedown, it can be a lot.
: Lol. You can get all information from the game. That doesnt mean it's reasonable to do so. Urgot can execute at 25%. Ok. Click on cho. He has 5347 hp. Cool. 25% of that is. Um. 1337. Let's look and see if he's at 1337. Lol. Not super practical.
It might be hard for you to calc 25% on the spot, but for most people it isn't. Then again other ults like Cho's give you exact value, so you don't even need to do that.
: Not many to be sure (aside from maybe Braum, Ali) which would probably explain why Riot is not gutting them.
So Riot is not gutting tanks because they already gutted them? Gotcha.
Jaspers (EUW)
: After Pyke's release they added it to Urgot and Cho. Cho used to have a small indicator around the champ but it was easy to miss however Cho's can be shielded so that's deceptive. Urgot's to me is also utter bullcrap, 25% HP, doesn't matter if you are a 6k HP Cho or 1700 Nami, less than 25% on a pretty easy to land fast skill shot and you gone. They need to remove those indicators entirely, make it about judging how much damage you are going to do, not give them a free pass.
Those indicators exist, because you can actually get this information from the game already (you just need point the enemy with mouse), but it is inconvenient. They don't any "free pass" that you can't get yourself if you are tryhard enough.
: I bring these things up mostly because, while most of what the original post says is well-intentioned, our intent as a program is not to be one where our users need to be "protected" *from us* - it's supposed to be one where *we help to protect the community*. We are human and imperfect, so we don't always succeed perfectly, but overall this is why we moderate what we moderate. And when community members feel we're failing in that duty, they have the right to tell us on [Discuss The Boards](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/community-moderation) or our [Discord channel](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/community-moderation/7rtKBZLi-boards-moderation-discord-verification). ---- I also want to note as one final point that League is an international game. Whether or not the U.S. Constitution even applies at all to players playing a game outside of the States or to our Boards programs in other countries is very dubious. We do try to promote freedom of speech and self-expression on the NA Boards, but overall, assuming an American viewpoint on everything regarding this game is not really a good idea as League is played all over the world.
Sorry, but you _either_ promote freedom of speech and expression, or you ban people to protect other people feelings. Harsh reality is you can't have both - even if the post you moderate out is clearly racist/homophobic/whatever, you are still silencing a person because of what _you_ think is right (well, not you personally, but Rito). There is no middle ground - you can't both support freedom of speech and protect people from certain kinds of speech. To be clear, I do think it is an OK thing to do (cutting out racist content and similar, for a private company), but if you do you shouldn't pretend that freedom of speech in your medium has any value for you (or the company) - because if there is a person/group deciding _which_ kinds of speech are OK, it defies the very purpose of freedom of speech.
Xphineas (NA)
: I made a post similar to this about a month back. I dont understand why people dont realize this.
For someone without interest in law, I can imagine it is counterintuitive that a private company can do something to you that a government can't. Normally it is the other way around, i.e. a private company isn't allowed to steal some money from you for every transaction you make.
OHminus (NA)
: Or, they could have just nerfed the other hook supports. That's a thought?
And let enchanters take ALL of the top 5 winrate spots again? No thank you.
: He's banned solely because he's popular? Why would anyone waste a ban like that? Ban priorities should be: 1. Pick/ban champs no one on your team is planning on picking 2. Champs that hard counter who you are planning on playing. 3. Hard counter options to teammates with multiple hard counters if you can handle what's going to be thrown at you. 4. Low winrate champs you want to keep off of your team.
> 4. Low winrate champs you want to keep off of your team. That's borderline griefing.
: No, he's not touched by Riot because he's popular.
Rather he is the most popular because he is allowed to be permamently broken in solo Q.
Nea104 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cr825bPc,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-09-21T14:21:33.587+0000) > go to op.gg and look at stats by tier for each region to put it in perspective. > > 1.5 mil NA ranked population > 2.8mil EUW ranked population > 3.6mil KR ranked population These are _accounts_, not players :P > always worthwhile to consider that the ranked ladders have lower populations than the other casual queues in the game (except TT i guess) True, still who plays ranked is much more likely to have many smurfs. > we could talk twitch stats but then one needs to bring up stats from all streaming platforms. > that aside we could average daily viewer counts from each game and add them up over 365 days and see who comes out on top. I compared Lol's peak with Dota's peak, and the average Twitch viewers (roughly) for both. I guess that the proportion should be pretty consistent, even if someone argued that Twitch is less popular in Asia (but that woul affect Dota as well).
> [{quoted}](name=Nea104,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cr825bPc,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-21T14:50:13.916+0000) > > These are _accounts_, not players :P > > True, still who plays ranked is much more likely to have many smurfs. > > I compared Lol's peak with Dota's peak, and the average Twitch viewers (roughly) for both. > I guess that the proportion should be pretty consistent, even if someone argued that Twitch is less popular in Asia (but that woul affect Dota as well). DoTa tournaments have insane amount of money put in them (like: insane even copared to LoL) and it generally sucks to play for a typical, "casual" player. I do not find it surprising that much higher percentage of DoTa players sends their time watching it instead of playin then in LoLs case.
: I may sound biased (I probably am) because I like Zed and play him a lot if I get to play mid but I honestly think he takes the most skill among all assassins. Early armor, standing behind minions to reduce Q damage, long ass CD on his only mobility tool makes the laning a lot easier. His early ult seems oppressive but is easy to counter especially if your champ has a dash. His ult damage mainly comes from his Qs, especially early game so sidestepping/dashing in an unpredictable way will make his ult damage suck. While his E isn't necessarily a skillshot and forces him to stay close to the enemy. Which means it's avoidable (if that is a word lol). Compared to other assassins like LB, Talon, Fizz, Akali his kit really seems healthy since his ult needs _3 full seconds._ to explode. That is enough time for your support to heal/exhaust/shield/CC Zed so he can't reach you for extra damage. The other assassins? They jump on you and you die. If they fail they die. Pretty much 0 skill involved. Akali may take some skill since low elo she sucks badly but her kit gives her so many out-of-jail-cards that the counterplay vanishes in higher elos. Zed has the biggest drawbacks for the safety he has and the "point and click" nuke (ult) he has. At least he has some conditions to fulfill to nuke someone, can't say that about the other assassins.
The thing is, other assassins don't get to freely (read: blink + untargetable dash) engage on you from 1.3k units away. Most get like half of that, and also in a way that can be canceled by a good support/tank. All the "drawbacks" don't really matter that much when his engage range is twice that of Kha'zix (who's jump is also cancelable), can't be canceled, and he still gets to dash away in case of a fakap.
Bârd (NA)
: If it's done properly, we gain dozens of buildpaths for every champion and lose *nothing of value*. Barely any champions would even need to be touched. {{item:3031}} 80 Attack Damage UNIQUE Passive - Crit Damage: Increases the multipliers of any crits by 0.25. UNIQUE Passive - Critical Strike: Wielder has a 30% chance to crit for 2x damage {{item:3086}} Zeal and its derivative items no longer grant critical strike. They now grant a moderate amount of attack damage. {{item:3508}} Either doesn't exist or has been reworked. {{champion:23}} "Tryndamere has up to a 35-50% chance (based on level) to crit for 2x damage, based on his current *fury*". {{champion:157}} Removed doubling crit chances. "Yasuo has a 25/50/75/100% chance to crit for 1.8x damage at levels 1/6/11/16". {{champion:22}} "Enemies afflicted with Frost Shot take 10-50% bonus damage from Ashe's basic attacks" {{champion:51}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:498}} Removed crit chance ratios. AD ratios on these abilities now additionally scale with level. Harrier CD lowered based on level. {{champion:203}} Removed crit damage ratio on E. Multiplier increased by 5%. {{champion:202}} Removed crit chance > AD conversion. AS > AD conversion increased from 25% to 44%. ___ The only champions you even need to consider here are the ones with Crit built directly into their kits, and even in those cases *you don't need to do anything*. As long as you're replacing those items with something good, it doesn't matter. If you don't believe me, lets see how one of the biggest Crit ADC's, Draven, would do with Dota's items, in which their IE equivalent costs 5330 gold. As it turns out... he would be completely fine. If Draven were ported into Dota 2 right now as a ranged strength hero, his build could contain almost any combination of: * Phase Boots * Power Treads * Hurricane Pike * Mjolnir * Satanic * Desolator * Daedelus * Diffusal Blade * Monkey King Bar * Black King Bar * Heart of Tarrasque * Sange and Yasha * Assault Cuirass * Bloodthorn * Blink Dagger * Drum of Endurance * Nullifyer * Moon Shard * Linken's Sphere * Hood of Defiance * Aghanim's Scepter * Hand of Midas * Boots of Travel * Silver Edge * Eye of Skadi * Heaven's Halberd The Marksman rework didn't fail because League's system for Crit is some sacred thing that can't be changed. The Marksman rework failed because *League's items suck*, and Riot refuses to fix that issue. Hell, if Riot wanted to, they could literally build unique crit chances/multipliers into each champion's BASE STATS, but they won't.
Check out GP's 50/50 build, and say again that we lose "nothing of value" when all crit builds stay random until lategame -_-"
Rioter Comments
SEKAI (OCE)
: Zed, similar to many other assassins, will actually take skill to play again once the game isn't filled to the brim with damage (and shitty/atrophied resistances) so they actually need to commit and invest to actually get kills. No more Zed going R and missing his double or triple Q but no worries, he just E and AA you twice and boom, dead. ....... Still, Zed still has his own fundamental design problems. This is mostly centered on how he has not 1 but 2 reposition tools (technically 3, since R can be used twice), while his offensive power is completely not lowered to compensate and in fact we could say his overall offensive power is actually higher given his R usually guarantees kills. That's just not right. Zed basically has the LB problem. And we all know LB is bullshit.
> Zed, similar to many other assassins, will actually take skill to play again once the game isn't filled to the brim with damage (and shitty/atrophied resistances) That's definitely part of the picture - it's way easier to play assassins when heavy CC champions are almost not picked.
Zed genius (EUNE)
: In videos made targeted at silver players. If a silver can pick up zed with a few games, they can carry all the time. Even in platinum if you try and play him, you won't be able to do much most of the time.
Right right, that's why he maintains 51% winrate and 10% pickrate despite being banned in almost every second game in p+. Sorry but if you think Zed is as weak as you wrote, you are just biased in favor of your main.
Zed genius (EUNE)
: Zed's a 4fun champion at this point. I'd rather play versus a masters zed player than a diamond mage main.
Funny how Zed players say that, yet his stats are high enough to be permamently classified as S+ tier. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
datfatguy (OCE)
: I just feel like Zed doesn't take a lot of skill to play anymore
Zed is really hard to master, but his baseline difficulty was never that great (i.e. really high skillcap, not that high skill floor). I mean, his typical combo is pointing the enemy with mouse and tapping each button once, in metas when he is strong enough to kill with that he is picked by literally every midlaner. He used to be difficult when you needed to poke your enemy for quite a while before going for all-in, or outplay CC to ensure you land enough autos for a kill, but that was not a case since like season 5.
: Ya, if riven can nuke my turret while tanking my hits, why cant I do the same to her turret...
Not sure why the downvotes, this is exactly the problem at hand. Tanks are gimped since plates became a thing because if they don't build Bami they have no waveclear, and if they build bami they can't sneak plates without killing the enemy, while every other class can do so.
: If you deal damage to an enemy below a tower you get targeted by that very tower. No exceptions. It can be any AoE effect such as Bamis, Tiamat, Ludens (+ their respective upgrades and jungle item versions), a DoT through your runes or abilities, even a Braum E intercepting your AA's aimed at the turret (done this myself quite a few times). I think this is a very clear rule that doesn't allow for any exceptions. Is it just Bamis? What about getting attacked while you have Thornmail? Now maybe you would want to limit it to small ticks, as both these damage sources deal only a minimal amount of damage. But what about basic attacks then? As long as they deal less damage than the threshold, these wouldn't trigger aggro either? There is no elegant way to solve this except saying "item damage doesn't matter", and that is a stupid rule within the framework of the game. That's why I think there should be no exceptions. If you attack someone under a turret, you should be prepared to face the consequences. If you don't want to deal damage to them, then you should play around not getting aggro maybe? Just as they should play around to get the turret to target you - be it attacking you so they get damaged by Thornmail, going close to you to get burned, or even the Braum tactic I mentioned earlier.
I do agree that all damage should trigger aggro, but the problem of Bami's needs to be adressed. {{item:3068}} is absolute core on most tanks, so right now if you get ahead on a tank you face a choice of building {{item:3751}} and not being able to take plates from your enemy, thus forfeiting much of your momentum, or not building it and screwing up your core build. Simple solution would be to make it a toggle.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Tsuko (NA)
: I'd love to see someone try to defend on how "First timing champions in ranked is perfectly fine".
> Riot has been anti-smurf since as long as I can remember. eee? Smurfing is explicitly allowed, all that Riot does is protect very new players from smurfs by matching them together. They never did anything to discourage anyone from creating and playing multiple accounts, with exception of like 3 people that were personally banned (i.e. T1). Like very recently Riot said they don't "endorse" smurfing because of clash, but they never ever said it is not allowed.
Bârd (NA)
: It's sizable. Considering most of her damage comes from onhits (plasma, muramana, nashors) it's a decent hit.
Also considering that she needs to stop attacking for a while to access this AS bonus.
: Yeah no, if i ping to back off i am not counter ganking and likely have a good reason for it like not being able to fight that {{champion:64}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:121}} because they straight up slaughter my champion until my champ gets ulti, if i did go the only result would be 2 kills instead of one, or one kill and a burned flash, or they turn on me kill me then clear my entire jungle and now i am useless entire game.
There is a difference between "I cant fight that" and "I won't fight that because I'm finishing my camp" and we were discussing the latter. Obviously if you can't match enemy jungler presence on the map you shouldn't, but as I wrote in my previous post, in current meta you are gimping your team early game so hard by picking a champion like that, that you absolutely need to be ready to be THE strongest asset later on, like with {{champion:11}}.
: if anti fun champions like yasuo, Pyke, Kaisa, Sylas are allowed to be in the game. Revert Yorick?
I'm an old-time Yorick player, both old and new Yorick, and Pyke, Yasuo, Kai'sa and Sylas are just not comparable to how toxic old Yorick's laning phase was - it might not _seem so_ because he was permamently _nerfed to the ground_ while those champions are allowed to be _permamently strong_, but in the short period of time when Yorick was allowed to be as strong as Yasuo, you just didn't get to play your lane. I'd say that the only version of Yasuo that was more toxic then Yorick was Frozen Force Yasuo - similar amounts of counterplay (that is, none really). I.e. I do believe that Pyke could be made a fair champion with severe nerfs to his safety - Riot just won't. Laning vs Yorick was never fair, he was just made so weak that you could win a game against him even if you forfeit most of the farm. Akali - yes, new Akali is way more toxic then Yorick ever was. While SOME of her abilities do have _certain amounts_ of counterplay, her kit is so overloaded with mobility that dodged E's don't really matter, you won't get to punish her regardless.
: Ill destroy your entire argument with 1 sentence. If i ping you to back off and you dont listen dont expect me to stop my camp to come help you, you dont listen thats your problem now.
Sorry but have to agree with the other guy here, it is very common to see junglers stop their camp to go for a countergank in high elo streams/proffesional matches. Having someone ignore your backpings and dying obviously sucks, but having your jungler not matching the enemy sucks just as bad, i.e. even if the laner does back off and enemy jungler doesn't even touch them, they will break their freeze, clear their wards and possibly even take a plate - all that for absolutely free. In previous seasons it wasn't the case (i.e. ganks were costly, as there was no catchup exp, there was no plates, no red wards, no duskblade...) and a gank where you didn't burn a summoner was a failure that set you behind, so I would agree with you, but nowadays it's just not the case, the only junglers who can allow themselves to just backping their laners instead of matching their enemy presence are ones that scale well enough to basically 1v5 lategame, like {{champion:11}} or so.
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Tentaku

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