Saevum (NA)
: Full of bullcrap reasons.
> [{quoted}](name=Saevum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=00690000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-13T15:22:20.482+0000) > > Full of bullcrap reasons. Nice bro, I wanted to be civil here but you are a...not so talented player who likes to call arguments "bullcrap" then offer none of their own. Stay in Silver child and keep asking for Tank Buffs...it will help I'm sure :) XDXDXDXDXDXDXDXD
Saevum (NA)
: No, i mean, why true damage again? Why something you cannot mitigate? just why? I know it's a nerf. Why tTrue Damage. WHY. You did not answered that. btw, I don't play on NA. This is a whine only account for the Boards.
> [{quoted}](name=Saevum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=006900000000,timestamp=2019-02-13T15:11:50.544+0000) > > No, i mean, why true damage again? Why something you cannot mitigate? just why? I know it's a nerf. Why tTrue Damage. WHY. > > You did not answered that. > > btw, I don't play on NA. This is a whine only account for the Boards. You said "more" True Damage in your original comment. As for why true damage is needed? There were two huge "reforms" in League recently. 1. Tank Rework. 2. Runes Reforged. In patch 7.22 they adjusted stats to fit the new Rune system. As a result of that and really powerful tank items top lane bruisers were getting pushed out of the lane...basically Tanks outtraded them with base numbers. There were several signs which should have been red flags for Riot: * bruisers rushing Tiamat just to get out of lane and roam because Tanks made the lane non-interactive * Tanks not having to rush tank items but building TriForce because their base stats are so high * Bruisers getting pushed out of top (some of them at least) * Tanks / Juggernauts played mid lane because they became so tanky they just shrugged off ranged poke (Sion mid, Cho mid, Aatrox mid etc.) * Traditional lane bullies are moving to mid to have impact (Jayce, Gangplank,) because their damage is no longer significant top lane * Tanks no longer have a weak laning phase and they can outright bully bruisers, this was not the case for 7 Seasons. Tanks had to farm up and scale. Still their itemization is dirt cheap and super efficient. I think these are the reasons why True Damage was introduced, there was no other way to meaningfully trade with a Tank / Juggernaut without this rune.
Saevum (NA)
: Why are they just throwing more true damage around? what is this?
> [{quoted}](name=Saevum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=0069,timestamp=2019-02-13T14:27:14.658+0000) > > Why are they just throwing more true damage around? what is this? Current Conqueror does 6-35 bonus AD and 20% of your total damage is converted to TRUE DAMAGE. So this new Conqueror is not "throwing" around True damage, it is a huge nerf. This is the problem with Silver players, you just like to whine. I looked at your account, you play like 1 game a week. Maybe if you stopped spending so much time bitching about stuff you clearly do not understand you could climb out of silver after like 3 seasons :)
: New Conqueror Changes
I changed my mind...this is complete trash. You cannot prep it on minions meaning you have to auto a Tank 5 times to get the true damage and healing. A Tank outtrades you with 2 spells before you can get the True Damage. Also keep in mind that bruisers do NOT primarily build AD but they build on-hit. Triforce gives you +25 AD so the 10% True Damage is dogshit. Even after two items most bruisers are under 200 AD so... (from a bruiser's perpective ofc)
: New Conqueror Changes
Good...this is the only option for bruisers to do ANY meaningful damage to Juggernauts and Tanks. Can hardly wait for this change even if it is gonna be a bit of a nerf.
: Anyone else find Neeko's dialogue to be cringy and her voice actor a bit off?
She sounds like a mentally challenged person. Nothing wrong with MC individuals but it is clear that the writer / voice actor just wanted to push this to the next level which is really disturbing. Speaking in third person singular etc. Not really a good performance all in all.
: > [{quoted}](name=ThrowsTheBird,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LxAqVeEx,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-22T16:55:58.308+0000) > > Yeah you are right....they are forcing it SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH that no assassins have been in pro-play (except for Leblanc) since like season 4. > > Tanks are outright oppressive top lane but I guess you have been stuck bronze for 3 seasons so why do you even talk about metas? I wish people would fucking get this. Pro play and average play are EXTREMELY different. And hate to break it to you, but leblanc DID see pro play. The exception is not the average.
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LxAqVeEx,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T20:27:30.349+0000) > > I wish people would fucking get this. > > Pro play and average play are EXTREMELY different. > > And hate to break it to you, but leblanc DID see pro play. > > The exception is not the average. Read my comment. I wrote "except Lebland". Reading comprehension is bronze too I see :) Maybe you have a low IQ and that is why you want a tank meta. Even Riot admitted that tanks are the lowest mastery curve champions in League...boring as fuck :) Nobody with a brain wants to see that.
: Can Riot explain ranked logic too me?
Look at this thread...lot of great info there: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tEkWeQUw-have-to-win-against-platinum-to-reach-bronze-3-introducing-the-next-generation-of-matchmaking And this is the followup (got gold with plat 2 MMR) : https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/PjwF8eu5-preaseason-ranked-experience-observations-and-remarks-part-2
: But if tanks are good, then assassins can’t be good, and riot wants to continue forcing this assassin meta down our throats.
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LxAqVeEx,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-22T13:20:26.014+0000) > > But if tanks are good, then assassins can’t be good, and riot wants to continue forcing this assassin meta down our throats. Yeah you are right....they are forcing it SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH that no assassins have been in pro-play (except for Leblanc) since like season 4. Tanks are outright oppressive top lane but I guess you have been stuck bronze for 3 seasons so why do you even talk about metas?
Rioter Comments
GFREEMEN (NA)
: Riot built it like that because people will keep trying to climb the wall they cant climb. Video game Theory is based off an experiment done on Rats. The Rat would be trained to pull a leaver and get rewarded. But then they would make pulling the Leaver a bad experience. The idea is to make the Rat still pull the leaver in the HOPES of getting a reward even when pulling the leaver was bad. This works on Humans too. Ranked is this to the T. Few have fun in ranked and still Que up in the HOPES they will get the next reward. Its all part of addiction. If Riot can keep you pulling the leaver they keep making $$ (even if YOU dont buy anything % wise ppl will) You can look at all video games like this that have micro transactions or monthly subscriptions. Only one time buy games dont do this.
That's an awesome and at the same time tragic analogy. Another disappointment for me. The first one was when I found out that reworking champions was a business decision as well. They cannot pump out new champions because a large champion pool would make the game (more) inaccessible to new players so they introduce new stuff by using the "rework model". Damn shame because it ruined a lot of champions I loved :( Give this a read if you have the time: https://web.archive.org/web/20180706095917/http://nikkone.blogspot.com (for some reason it got removed but Internet Archive has it all)
Kai Guy (NA)
: I set the starting MMR for the game to be bronze. I lower K factor in Silver 4. Lower it again in silver 2. I can now reasonably keep a majority of the games population under gold MMR. Hell with Iron tier I can make it so less then 10% of the game ever makes it up to gold. At no point does it rig matches. Any one consistently able to climb to the top 10% will do so. This is super easy. I don't have to rig a single match. My match maker system does not have to stat track. Or try to find ways to throw matches. I as a dev have 100% control over my MMR to Division Precentiles. If you think forced 50% is real your lying to yourself. If you cant climb that top 10% wall, bummer your literally just not good enough or able to invest enough time. Oh right. Time investment that's something your arguing. I still don't have to Rigg matches. Low MMR gain losses. Low LP gain losses. I can tweak this in relation to the start point. Your new? kudos its going to take 400 wins at a 60% rate to hit gold. Oh old accounts? Soft resets? easy. Set them to be a much lower value and bleed extra MMR from the system. Then set the K factor to change by account differently for wins and losses. Double your MMR losses. Now you need a 66% win rate in placements to break even, not with your last seasons MMR but my arbitrarily decided Start point. I don't ever need to try and make impact on the quality of matchmaker. Becuase as a dev i can 100% make ranked ladder work how ever the hell I want. Rigged 50% is a garbage excuse for not climbing.
> [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEkWeQUw,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-13T10:43:45.728+0000) > > I set the starting MMR for the game to be bronze. I lower K factor in Silver 4. Lower it again in silver 2. I can now reasonably keep a majority of the games population under gold MMR. Hell with Iron tier I can make it so less then 10% of the game ever makes it up to gold. > > At no point does it rig matches. Any one consistently able to climb to the top 10% will do so. > > This is super easy. I don't have to rig a single match. My match maker system does not have to stat track. Or try to find ways to throw matches. I as a dev have 100% control over my MMR to Division Precentiles. > > If you think forced 50% is real your lying to yourself. > > If you cant climb that top 10% wall, bummer your literally just not good enough or able to invest enough time. > > Oh right. Time investment that's something your arguing. I still don't have to Rigg matches. Low MMR gain losses. Low LP gain losses. I can tweak this in relation to the start point. Your new? kudos its going to take 400 wins at a 60% rate to hit gold. > > Oh old accounts? Soft resets? easy. Set them to be a much lower value and bleed extra MMR from the system. Then set the K factor to change by account differently for wins and losses. Double your MMR losses. Now you need a 66% win rate in placements to break even, not with your last seasons MMR but my arbitrarily decided Start point. > > I don't ever need to try and make impact on the quality of matchmaker. Becuase as a dev i can 100% make ranked ladder work how ever the hell I want. > > > Rigged 50% is a garbage excuse for not climbing. Thank you very much for the detailed answer. I will say that I agree with you about some parts, I actually get 32 LP for a win and only minus 8-10 LP for a loss so it is working in a sense. I just got home from work, let me get back to you tomorrow (Central European time) and address some of your fine points.
: MMR system is bugged right now. Anyways. Avoid boards like the plague. It’s infested with low elo players spreading misinformation. If you actually wanna climb look at YouTube or Reddit. If you want to moan about how Riots holding you back, you’re welcome at boards.
> [{quoted}](name=WashyMoney,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEkWeQUw,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-01-13T12:49:18.817+0000) > > MMR system is bugged right now. > > Anyways. Avoid boards like the plague. It’s infested with low elo players spreading misinformation. If you actually wanna climb look at YouTube or Reddit. If you want to moan about how Riots holding you back, you’re welcome at boards. Not looking to moan at all, I'm trying to understand how the system works. So far people confirmed my fears, the MMR system is indeed working against the player. I should be playing in Bronze instead of Gold - Plat right now. If I beat bronze players I should climb if not then I should stay there. This is completely made impossible with the MMR system. As for Reddit...well I have never seen more whiners in one place constantly crying about everything. I will however follow your advice, I will steer clear of all forums. Thanks.
: tbh tho, plat 4 isnt even that much better then gold 2 players, so rlly its not much a difference in skill tbh
> [{quoted}](name=GodlyBane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEkWeQUw,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-01-13T00:00:37.037+0000) > > tbh tho, plat 4 isnt even that much better then gold 2 players, so rlly its not much a difference in skill tbh To be honest I do see quite a skill difference between low plat and high gold. However my problem is not that we get plat players...my problem is that it only occurs on the enemy team. I am playing a relatively tard proof champion top lane (Quinn) so I can at least go even with plats but whenever the enemy ADC is plat he / she will wipe the floor with my gold 4 ADC. These matches are not even close and that is my gripe.
GFREEMEN (NA)
: Yes this is how the MMR System works. If you are a good player it will place Dumb as Rocks players on your team to push you to 50%. Also New accounts will climb much faster then an account that has 1000 Ranked games. The system does not handle old accounts well because you are so close to 50% any wins will be quickly offset by a game with afkers or run down mid feeders. The system is complete TRASH and I Grade schooler could design a better one.
> [{quoted}](name=GFREEMEN,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEkWeQUw,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-12T22:15:35.029+0000) > > Yes this is how the MMR System works. > > If you are a good player it will place Dumb as Rocks players on your team to push you to 50%. > > Also New accounts will climb much faster then an account that has 1000 Ranked games. The system does not handle old accounts well because you are so close to 50% any wins will be quickly offset by a game with afkers or run down mid feeders. > > The system is complete TRASH and I Grade schooler could design a better one. Well I'm said to hear that. Maybe I should not play ranked then...if the system just wants to fuck you in the ass what's the point? :(
: yeah because of the rank restructuring MMR ratings are probably unreliable for a while. Still, every year you should wait a few weeks before ranking. This will let all the higher ranked players climb a bit and the actual low elo players to drop. So you win on two fronts and should have an easier time climbing. otherwise you might lose a bunch of games to players who are currently ranked way lower than they belong and tank your mmr
> [{quoted}](name=OrangeMarine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEkWeQUw,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-12T22:07:01.239+0000) > > yeah because of the rank restructuring MMR ratings are probably unreliable for a while. Still, every year you should wait a few weeks before ranking. This will let all the higher ranked players climb a bit and the actual low elo players to drop. So you win on two fronts and should have an easier time climbing. > > otherwise you might lose a bunch of games to players who are currently ranked way lower than they belong and tank your mmr Thank you for your response. That makes sense. Also does that mean that I am right about how the system works? Is it grouping me with lower mmr players to have the proper team mmr?
Rioter Comments
Eedat (NA)
: You criticize for not knowing the difference between outdated and unhealthy but then show you don't know the difference between overloaded and unhealthy yourself. He doesn't have an overloaded kit. He's just a ball of numbers. That being said, I don't think he's any worse than like Darius or Pantheon. They all dont really require great mechanics to play
> [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M08LQVXT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-12T18:59:31.443+0000) > > You criticize for not knowing the difference between outdated and unhealthy but then show you don't know the difference between overloaded and unhealthy yourself. He doesn't have an overloaded kit. He's just a ball of numbers. That being said, I don't think he's any worse than like Darius or Pantheon. They all dont really require great mechanics to play I don't believe I am confusing things here. Riot called Irelia and Akali outdated before reworking them even though their kits had elements which are used by other "modern" champions as well. So I pointed out what's really outdated (a zero mobility kit) and then followed up with a demonstration on what goes into keeping such an outdated kit alive. As for the second part of your comment: Darius has very clear openings and if he misses his Q (you dodge it) you can trade with him. In case of Pantheon I agree with you, very little you can do. However bringing up bad kits does not really help us solve the issue of Nasus.
Rioter Comments
nfzeta (NA)
: I don't think making comeback mechanics makes the game more casual but rather more complex and/or difficult, maybe too difficult in some instances but that's another discussion. Comeback mechanics by design just makes players think more even when they have a lead and rewards people who keep their cool when behind.
> [{quoted}](name=nfzeta,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=tz8AEMWx,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2019-01-10T21:35:32.137+0000) > > I don't think making comeback mechanics makes the game more casual but rather more complex and/or difficult, maybe too difficult in some instances but that's another discussion. > Comeback mechanics by design just makes players think more even when they have a lead and rewards people who keep their cool when behind. That's really nice of you to think of the losing side. What about the winning side? What about keeping your cool and getting advantages which translates into a lead? How about respecting that? A team that consistently plays well SHOULD WIN against a team who misplayed lanes and made bad decisions for over 20 minutes.
darkdill (NA)
: There needs to be some sort of comeback mechanics pertaining to vision
If you make a "come-back mechanic" to combat every aspect of the enemy team having a lead then there won't be a point in gaining a lead. Yes, a team that is winning has more control over the map and rightfully so. They focused objectives, took turrets (otherwise they wouldn't be in your jungle) so you have to play more careful and use blue trinkets AND COMMON SENSE to slowly make your way back into the game. This game is already too casual: death timers are so short you can literally die and not lose a single farm, you get exp even when you are dead, catch up xp is morbidly overtuned, now the bounty system is showering gold on the team which is behind....just don't dumb down this game any more, it is overly casual as it is in my opinion. Just look at the amount of shutdown gold....being just slightly ahead you are liable to give away 500-1000 gold....that's literally 2-3 kills to an opponent who did bad, but you get punished for doing good?
Baikenn (EUW)
: My in-depth explanation of how the game has been going downhill since the start of season 3
Lowered early game death timers. Experience gained WHILE DEAD. Catch-up xp modified so you can be afk for 10 mins and still come back. A new bounty system that aims to punish you for doing good while rewarding those who did bad. Just a mess. Feels like no matter what I do, it is all about one baron play or one teamfight and it is over. What I have done to that point is quite irrelevant.
: Did you personally ask all 100,000,000 of them? You could have had to for that to "literally" be true. Everyone I played with has at least 10 runes pages covering everything from "tank vs all AD" to FULL AS/flat armor jungle pages. Maybe it's something people that are new to the game made a habbit of? Hell dude there used to be very popular webpages that literally did nothing but post slight variations in rune configs. Do you even remember when Akali required a custom page? Or dodge runes? The very things you started as being "wrong" were what made the game so damn popular to begin with my dude. The players were here BEFORE the recent changes. Tanks traditionally have had very safe laning phases due to much higher sustain and much lower damage than LoL in it's current form. Exactly when in League history are you talking about? I still remember when taric had an infinite healing ulti, eve stuned with an auto out of stealth, GP could kill his own minions, you could stack 6 sunfire capes and you could start 15 health pots and they healed for 200 each. Ever try to force a Shen out of lane when he had 3000 points of health potions at level 1, a Q that heals, AND an activated shield? I assure you tank lanes back in the way were easy mode compared to now.
> [{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=B8fa3kEu,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-11-28T17:53:58.821+0000) > > Did you personally ask all 100,000,000 of them? You could have had to for that to "literally" be true. Everyone I played with has at least 10 runes pages covering everything from "tank vs all AD" to FULL AS/flat armor jungle pages. Maybe it's something people that are new to the game made a habbit of? Hell dude there used to be very popular webpages that literally did nothing but post slight variations in rune configs. Do you even remember when Akali required a custom page? Or dodge runes? > > The very things you started as being "wrong" were what made the game so damn popular to begin with my dude. The players were here BEFORE the recent changes. > > Tanks traditionally have had very safe laning phases due to much higher sustain and much lower damage than LoL in it's current form. > > Exactly when in League history are you talking about? I still remember when taric had an infinite healing ulti, eve stuned with an auto out of stealth, GP could kill his own minions, you could stack 6 sunfire capes and you could start 15 health pots and they healed for 200 each. > > Ever try to force a Shen out of lane when he had 3000 points of health potions at level 1, a Q that heals, AND an activated shield? I assure you tank lanes back in the way were easy mode compared to now. Well you said it here for all to see: you want farm lanes. This is what you said..you want 5k health tanks farming and being invulnerable in lane. This is your idea of "fun". This is not competitive, this is boring and robs TWO people of good gameplay. The tank and the opponent. Tanks DID NOT have safe laning phases, that is just outright false. You can watch ANY video on youtube feataring gameplay of ANY season before season 7-8 and you will see that tanks took a lot more damage from poke. > and you could start 15 health pots and they healed for 200 each. Already explained above, they changed it so you have less sustain now and you are forced to make decisions and better guard your healthpool. Also you are wrong about what made the game popular. Throughout S1 to S5 tanks were pretty much considered a bad pick especially in soloQ. At Worlds you would see Assassins and top lane was NOT a tank lane. What made the game popular is that it was fun and surprising. You know why there are very few tank streamers? Because the gameplay is boring, it literally kills streams. People want to see action and outplays, not farming for 25 minutes...understandably. If you want a boring farm simulator as you described then fine, go for it! :)
: I'd like to point out is was quite possible to start with 30+ flat armor and 12mr from just runes... + old masterys GAVE you more armor/mr and toughness.... as well as a good bit of health. Not to mention you used to start with a LOT more sustain from flasks/potions and base HP regen values were higher for almost every champ. I used to run full armor/scaling armor pages and start cloth + 5 pot into bursty ad champs all the time. Then you'd go heart of gold + philo stone. Every season champs have done more damage and been less tough... with the exclusion of season 5 where for a brief time tanks were tanky again.
> [{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=B8fa3kEu,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-11-28T10:36:36.606+0000) > > I'd like to point out is was quite possible to start with 30+ flat armor and 12mr from just runes... + old masterys GAVE you more armor/mr and toughness.... as well as a good bit of health. > > Not to mention you used to start with a LOT more sustain from flasks/potions and base HP regen values were higher for almost every champ. > > I used to run full armor/scaling armor pages and start cloth + 5 pot into bursty ad champs all the time. Then you'd go heart of gold + philo stone. > > Every season champs have done more damage and been less tough... with the exclusion of season 5 where for a brief time tanks were tanky again. And literally 99% of players did NOT have all-armor or all-MR runes. Tanks ran 3 Armor Quints (3x4.5 armor) or MR Quints so no, I don't buy that argument. Too much sustain (potions / flasks) is BAD for laning because it makes it non-interactive, non-rewarding. You basically render it a farm fest and that was changed with new potion prices and Corrupting Pot. I think it was good change. The surest way to kill League is to make it non-competitive, uninteresting. This is the direction they are taking it due to non-stop whining of Reddit and others. About tanks. Do you know why nobody plays Quinn anymore? Or why Jayce is mid lane or why for that matter why Irelia is mid? These "bullies" consistently underperform since Runes Reforged, Stat Adjustments and MONTHS of buffing tanks / juggernauts. Tanks traditionally HAD a weak early game, that was the opening, a time to shut them down. Not only was this removed (they are very tanky early game) but they pumped so much free stats into tanks and made such horrible decisions (Chogath not losing stacks) that it literally does not matter if you kill a tank 7 times. Laning generally consists of the bruiser (or whoever you play) buys an early Tiamat just to get out of lane because NOTHING is happening. If there are two tanks then it is not even worth looking at the lane. At the same time tanks are not strong enough later in the game in my opinion. They just stand there and carries can shred them apart. I think a power shift is necessary. Let them have a weak early game again and let them scale better in exchange. In their current state they are choking top lane. They are boring to play and play against while being useless in teamfights. You may love this but I don't. I want to see outplays which is possible on any other class besides tanks / jugs who have the lowest mastery curve (stated by Riot).
: Comparing the gold values of the different rune shard stats
Also, the only reason defensive is cheap is due to tank items being very cheap. There is no reason for that, if anyone wants similar value then just raise the cost of tank items by 100-300 gold. They can farm just like anybody else and it is not like tank items are bad...every season a champion arises that abuses them (it is Viktor currently). We had tank bruisers, tank carries, tank assassins....wonder when Riot will realize that tank items are just too efficient at this point.
: Damage is an issue. No matter where you come from we are all aware of damage creep, whether it be in the "tracking" section of the domination tree or the newly added shield bash, RIOT has been adding damage slowly but surely into the game. Combine this with the rampant burst meta (Luden's, Stormrazor and Duskblade being the main proprietors) and every role has some sort of super high damage combo, in which they burn all of their cool downs to try and kill 1-2 people as fast as possible. These defensive runes offer a gate for incredibly strong early game bursties (Talon for instance), which allows late game champions that would normally rely on consistent damage (Aurelion for instance) to lane safely and comfortable, but in exchange give up some of their kill and roam potential. I personally think that the defensive runes need to be higher, or the offensive runes need to be lower, as it has been stated multiple times that the gold value of the defensive runes is abysmal compared to the ones of adaptive force. A large reason why you may not see this type of burst in higher elos/pro play is that it forces the players to play more defensively. One wrong move and they get 100-0'ed instantly. As a result of this very conservative and passive play, RIOT buffed damage more (in an effort to give new life into the game) but ended up making players play even more defensively. This is an argument for another time, but it is clear that damage (more specifically burst) is off the rails due to creep and other factors. In the end it is a burst creeped meta with people trying to find some way to reduce it and be able to play champions that are weak to burst. Personally, I would love to see all damage reduced in the game by a percentage, but as a compensation buff champions will get cool down reduction. This would make fights last longer, champions take more skill to play in general (AA modifying items need to be reworked) and the game be more fun in general. Champions could disengage from fights if it was a close match, or if you were a crafty assassin you could stick onto the target just long enough so they die. More defenses -> more playing the game.
> [{quoted}](name=JeaneGreene,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=B8fa3kEu,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-11-24T13:44:53.712+0000) > > Damage is an issue. No matter where you come from we are all aware of damage creep, whether it be in the "tracking" section of the domination tree or the newly added shield bash, RIOT has been adding damage slowly but surely into the game. Combine this with the rampant burst meta (Luden's, Stormrazor and Duskblade being the main proprietors) and every role has some sort of super high damage combo, in which they burn all of their cool downs to try and kill 1-2 people as fast as possible. > > These defensive runes offer a gate for incredibly strong early game bursties (Talon for instance), which allows late game champions that would normally rely on consistent damage (Aurelion for instance) to lane safely and comfortable, but in exchange give up some of their kill and roam potential. I personally think that the defensive runes need to be higher, or the offensive runes need to be lower, as it has been stated multiple times that the gold value of the defensive runes is abysmal compared to the ones of adaptive force. > > A large reason why you may not see this type of burst in higher elos/pro play is that it forces the players to play more defensively. One wrong move and they get 100-0'ed instantly. As a result of this very conservative and passive play, RIOT buffed damage more (in an effort to give new life into the game) but ended up making players play even more defensively. This is an argument for another time, but it is clear that damage (more specifically burst) is off the rails due to creep and other factors. > > In the end it is a burst creeped meta with people trying to find some way to reduce it and be able to play champions that are weak to burst. Personally, I would love to see all damage reduced in the game by a percentage, but as a compensation buff champions will get cool down reduction. This would make fights last longer, champions take more skill to play in general (AA modifying items need to be reworked) and the game be more fun in general. Champions could disengage from fights if it was a close match, or if you were a crafty assassin you could stick onto the target just long enough so they die. More defenses -> more playing the game. Damage and power creep are relative. With that I mean that if they keep raising defensive stats then it is in equilibrium? (not a native speaker but I hope you get the point) A much more interesting question is WHY the power creep is a constant issue? I want you to take a look at top lane for a moment. Look at Darius, Fiora...other bruisers. They have received nothing but buffs for months. The reason for that is patch 7.22 stat adjustments and Runes Reforged. Tanks / Jugs received so much base stats that they had to buff Darius and they were clear about the reasons: "we want an anti-tank option" (I'll try to look up the dev corner post). Resolve Tree, stat adjustment in patch 7.22 and random buffs to champions like Garen (???) made bruisers struggle so Riot was giving them nothing but buffs. My point is that in this case the power creep was an answer to a defense creep. I completely disagree with the burst part. Anyone now can take Resolve Tree (Lissandra is just one example) and the Boneplating was designed to completely negate burst. Also I do not see burst as a bad thing in League. In a 1v1 situation where the adc / squishy mispositions then he / she should be dead very quickly. Already there are too many options / champions to completely cuck assassins (Lulu, Janna etc.). You have to ask yourself..why are melee assassins completely absent in pro play? With these new Stat Shards I expect that assassins will suffer....and that will bring about buffs which again just adds to the power creep you mentioned. But again...they are going to buff these early game champs just to give them a chance to have an impact before falling off so again it is going to be a response to defense creep. On my main (not this acc) I play in mid to high plat. I just don't see the assassin domination there I'm sorry. Everybody plays it very safe and this rune system is designed to further strengthen that (anti game) playstyle.
Ukon3 (NA)
: Passive gold generation
+1 Anything to make this game more competitive! Nice write-up!
: Disagree with pretty much everything and quite frankly you're 100% wrong. Point 1. Main beneficiaries are not tanks. Even if they are Tanks have been weak for the entirety of season 8 due to damage out scaling defenses from both runes and items and the abundance of true damage from things like conqueror. This is a fact backed up by winrates, champion popularity and worlds pick rates. Tanks were non existent this season. The main beneficiaries are immobile squishy champions who have been getting shit on tby this 1 shot meta. Point 2. Damage has been too high for the entirety of season 8. Riot has admitted it, the majority of the community has been complaining about it, Pro and former pro players complained about it and even the worlds casters said it MULTIPLE times during worlds. Damage in season 8 was WAY TOO HIGH. This not even a point to be disputed, its a fact. Resistances made assassins who were way too strong weaker? Good, thats exactly what needed to happen considering assassins were basically 1 comboing people at level 3 for 100% of their healthbar consistently. Thats not good gameplay. 5-12 resistance doesnt even come close to moving us into the direction of too little damage. Damage has gone down by sub 10% to a single damage type if you take both of the same resistances, leaving you with 0% reduction to the other or 3-4% to both. To say that this is making damage too low is utterly absurd. Your entire post is a massive exaggeration and filled with falsehoods.
> This is a fact backed up by winrates, champion popularity and worlds pick rates. Tanks were non existent this season. I don't see these stats and I never saw it while browsing champion.gg and op.gg stats. Worlds used Sion / Urgot / Aatrox extensively (Juggernauts and tanks). Champions with linear kits such as Garen / Nasus / Mundo enjoyed a 50+ % win rate in SoloQ throughout the whole season. I am talking about Platinum and Diamond elos. Also you completely missed my point here. I want the game to have strong tanks LATEGAME. My issue with adding early game resistances is that the early game of Tanks / Juggernauts is already very strong, stronger in fact than in every other season. If a Tank / Jug plays the lane properly you will not kill them, they will just recall when even slightly low on health and they can certainly afford to lose some farm seeing as how their items are dirt cheap and a lot of power is in their kit, including free resistances. The point is that top lane is the least interactive lane, it is a bore farm fest where bruisers are forced to rush waveclear item just to escape lane because the tank / jug cannot be duelled if they play properly. Do you understand this? > Point 2. Damage has been too high Ok. They gutted Domination Tree, they buffed some tanks, they buffed Doran's Shield, they nerfed Duskblade and Stormrazer. They made several changes to dumb the game down and make it extremely forgiving: you gain xp even if you are dead, new reward system immediately puts you back in the game, they lowered early game death timers (basically you may not lose even 1 farm even if you die and you just tp back). How casual do you want it? League grew becaues it was a competitive experience. Remember season 4? Tanks had to farm up and play safe early and if somebody showed excellence they could carry the game 1v9. This is competitive....farming top lane with Garen is NOT. > Resistances made assassins who were way too strong weaker? Good, thats exactly what needed to happen considering assassins were basically 1 comboing people at level 3 for 100% of their healthbar consistently. Thats not good gameplay. Thet is your opinion, not backed by any data. Assassins consistently have 50% > win rate (most of them anyways). So even if they could blow up their targets - which is their primary ROLE in the game - they were not oppressive in soloQ as shown by the stats. You like to talk about pro play a lot, let's talk about it then. Since Season 5 Tanks have ALWAYS BEEN PRESENT in the pro-gaming scene. You know which class is completely missing? Yeah, assassins. One of the most exciting class has been absent for YEARS (with the exception of ranged Leblanc). And it is bad for the game, instead of seeing Faker play Zed like back then you can see waveclear control mages mid and Urgot vs Sion "battling it out" top...until they all group and teamfight. Wow how exciting... Have a nice day! :)
: I agree with the issues you brought up, but I also wanted to mention another one - which may change the approach to a solution. In the 2018 rune system, you could take Inspiration if you wanted to stack the scaling Health bonus or start with 18% Attack speed. This option is now gone in the new system, leaving some champs without their optimal or favorite rune paths. Many junglers appreciate the armor, but I would argue overall clear speed is more important, especially with the race for scuttle early. I think the new stats previously unavailable to the 2018 runes (CDR, armor, MR) should be one-ofs in the selection tree, while allowing health and attack speed to be taken twice to stack, similar to adaptive damage. This allows Riot to have less newer variables to take into consideration, and can more readily compare champion performance with the same starting stats as the previous season. Is this champion weak because they lost 9% attack speed at level 1, or is there a more probable reason? Perhaps something like this: ROW 1: Adaptive Force // Attack Speed // CDR/level ROW 2: Adaptive Force // Health/level // Armor ROW 3: Health/level // Attack Speed // Magic Resistance This leaves the 'new' stats champions can start with in the third column without the ability to stack any one of them. It does not allow for pure tank (Health/Armor/MR) setups similar to the current system, and allows junglers that care about attack speed to further take what interests them (adaptive force for even faster clears, armor for the rough jungle spots, or HP to scale with cinderhulk). Characters not being able to take 10 armor off the bat I think will address the dullness of laning phase you mention while still offering a primarily defensive choice setup for characters that want to survive the laning phase. The biggest issue I forsee with this system is the Adaptive/Adaptive/Attack speed pure offense setup becoming dominant, but I think that that option should be available to players. This does leave the laners that might want a pure defensive rune tree out to dry, but I think the power of the effective combination of health and a resistance can counteract the pure offensive setup. Or at least the stats could be tweaked a little better to even them out. Trades in lane will not too often get an extra attack in early on with just the 9% attack speed, but I'd have to do some testing for that claim. This still does not address the last point you bring up, that the game could leave squishies feeling like there is 'too much damage,' but I think there are other levers that can be used to tune that within the rune system, typically via keystone adjustments. As a bit of an aside, taking 10 armor or 12 Magic resist is very much a problem with this system for another reason - no option for penetration. Many rune pages included magic or armor penetration back in the day before runes reforged, which helped balance out the stats of runes. Champs that wanted to be aggressive early game could take flat AD/AP, and champs that wanted to scale could take penetration for when resistances became higher and their base damages got scarier with level. I think Riot has come to the conclusion (one that I agree with) that penetration should be something you really have to build for rather than just get and take on every character. So I'd still say the scaling resists are better than reintroducing penetration in runes. Do you think my proposal addresses the same issues that changing to scaling resists would, or would some combination of the two work better?
> ROW 1: Adaptive Force // Attack Speed // CDR/level > ROW 2: Adaptive Force // Health/level // Armor > ROW 3: Health/level // Attack Speed // Magic Resistance I really love your approach but as you say, the AS + AD would be too dominant and people are complaining already. (Not me, I loved damage meta where mistakes count and you can 1v9). ROW1 (flex0): Adaptive Damage // CDR // Armor ROW2 (flex1): Attack Speed // Health // Magic Resist ROW3 (flex2): Attack Speed // Health // CDR Still not perfect but given the number of slots I may do. It would allow a tank to start with armor + mr + health or trade something for CDR which he needs. It would obviously need some number adjustments but it is fun to experiment wit this. Perhaps a system where there are more than 3 elements in a row? They talked about this already. The sad thing is that this is starting to look like the old Rune System but completely "barren". They wanted to unify the Masteries / Runes to have them in one system....now they again separated them and we are operating with Keystones that resemble the old Masteries and Stat Shards that resemble the old Runes if you removed 90% of them....isn't it sad?
Stelyar (NA)
: > Tanks / Juggernauts do not need any more early game resistances. Tanks have a solid, even strong laning phase while they get shredded to pieces later in the game. This is bad for both tanks and for those who lane against them. Interaction in lane is minimal, most bruisers rush Tiamat irrespective of whether it fits into their build or not. The Tank can play safe so bruisers just push the lane and roam. Already Juggernauts and Tanks are pushing out true damage hypercarries according to win rates. At the same time some Tanks / Juggernauts are so tanky early game that they can be played mid lane because they shrug off ranged poke as well. This problem will be made worse if Tanks / Juggernauts will walk to lane with +10 armor or +12 MR. Which tanks are you referring too? Like I can understand Ornn, bc of how strong his W is, but I find that even he is often bullied out of lane by popular bruisers. Even Sion, who just very high durability and good damage, is often killed by smart aggresive bruisers. Other than those two most tanks tend to get out damaged and out-sustained by most popular top laners (specifically thinking of Darius, Garen, Camille, Gangplank, Illaoi, Fiora, Irelia{maybe}). I also don't think the extra resists will do much since true damage is so prevalent in top lane meta with conquerer and built in true damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Stelyar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=B8fa3kEu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-16T03:02:29.024+0000) > > Which tanks are you referring too? Like I can understand Ornn, bc of how strong his W is, but I find that even he is often bullied out of lane by popular bruisers. Even Sion, who just very high durability and good damage, is often killed by smart aggresive bruisers. Other than those two most tanks tend to get out damaged and out-sustained by most popular top laners (specifically thinking of Darius, Garen, Camille, Gangplank, Illaoi, Fiora, Irelia{maybe}). I also don't think the extra resists will do much since true damage is so prevalent in top lane meta with conquerer and built in true damage. I'm looking at champion.gg stats (you can look up any other site, the stats are the same): https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=ascend&roleSort=Top Fiora / Irelia / Camille and even Juggernauts like Darius are below 50% win rate while overtuned kits (Garen, Sion etc.) fare very well. It is no longer encouraged to learn a complex champion when Garen has 52% win rate in Diamond while having a decent play rate. Bruisers with the exception of Jax are around 47% (stats are from PLatimum + elos) Yes I am aware that win rate is not everything, the point here is that low mastery curve champions with high win rates are more effective than complex hypercarries. Also I am talking about both Tanks AND Juggernauts. Garen / Sion / Urgot / NAsus / Malphite / Yorick are just a few names of high win rate high play rate champions, but I would say Chogath is equally toxic. Look at what they did to Nasus and Cho during Tank Rework. Instead of farming and scaling up they were given stats for free (nasus ult, Cho ult, Garen W). It is extremely unfun to lane against these champions. Instead of slowly scaling up they are completely invulnerable at 20 mins with 1- 1,5 items. These champions should SCALE into mid-late game and not be oppressive early game.
Rioter Comments
GigglesO (NA)
: Riots new stat changes are an Illusion of choice.
> Here is the gold value of the shit they are trying to give us 5 armor = 100g 6 MR = 108g 6 ad = 210g 10 ap = 217g 15hp = 39g 90hp=234g 9% AS = 225g Clear bias for damage. The only reason for this is that tank items are DIRT CHEAP for no apparent reason. Tanks no longer have a weak early game so they should be able to farm just like everybody else, make their items more expensive. Or look at it from the other side: damage items are expensive so it is only fair that ad and ap are worth more gold. Armor and MR have low gold value because these items cost like 2700-2900 gold while most other items go to the 3200 range. You can't have it all you know. Tanks are spoiled with cheap items so it follows that tank stats are worth less. You want a less biased system? Make tank items cost 3200-3500 and immediately those values will change :)
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ThrowsTheBird,realm=EUNE,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-11-13T23:44:16.953+0000) > > If they pump any more resistances into this game then the whole point of aggressive laning will be lost and it will be a dumb game. > > This new system allows you to start the game with half a Cloth Armor or Null-Magic Mantle and that is still not enough for you? > > I don't want wet-noodle fights, I want to be rewarded for risky plays and not just play farm simulator for 25 minutes. You are talking about extremes not just slightly backing off of damage. Those are two very different things. Also, the new runes don't let you start with a NMM or cloth armor {{item:1033}} gives 25 MR {{item:1029}} gives 15 armor... Runes don't give that much. Plays are also not risky enough with how fast you can kill the enemy because you just play farm the enemy champ simulator.
> [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-11-14T06:25:39.888+0000) > > You are talking about extremes not just slightly backing off of damage. Those are two very different things. > > Also, the new runes don't let you start with a NMM or cloth armor {{item:1033}} gives 25 MR {{item:1029}} gives 15 armor... Runes don't give that much. > > Plays are also not risky enough with how fast you can kill the enemy because you just play farm the enemy champ simulator. I like how you deliberately changed what I said. I said HALF an item. You can start with 12 MR that is HALF of a Mantla OR you can start with 10 Armor that is 2/3s of a Cloth Armor. Also you understand I hope that giving early resist stats (most of which will be used by Tanks and Jugs top lane) does nothing to solve the "too much damage in the game" issue you perceived. It is just a huge "F You!" to assassins and other early game champs while making a whole class (tanks) even more broken. Also some champions were DESIGNED to be weak early and strong late. Twitch / Vayne / Cassio etc...scaling champions who have godlike late game. This pumping resistances into the game is just ignoring balance considerations. First they say "there is too much damage" so instead of taking some away from items (both ap and ad) they buff tanks WHILE they nerf the Domination Tree. Now they buff Doran's Shield (again...Tanks and Jugs use it mostly) while introducing even more resist stats into the game. Horrible direction.
GigglesO (NA)
: Riots new stat changes are an Illusion of choice.
If they pump any more resistances into this game then the whole point of aggressive laning will be lost and it will be a dumb game. This new system allows you to start the game with half a Cloth Armor or Null-Magic Mantle and that is still not enough for you? I don't want wet-noodle fights, I want to be rewarded for risky plays and not just play farm simulator for 25 minutes.
Squad5 (NA)
: Ornn changes on PBE
You are giving him lower costs and more damage? That will just make him oppressive in lane and does not help his main purpos (teamfighting). You are killing top lane.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 9
Dear @Meddler In patch 7.22 you adjusted the base stats of champions (runes reforged). Thanks got a lot of armor that made them virtually unkillable in lane making the lane a non-interactive experience. Now you introduce even more resistances whose greatest beneficiaries will be Tanks / Juggernauts. Do you think you will adjust the base stats of these champions again? Tanks traditionally had a weak early game, this is no longer the case since you keep buffing them and pumping resistances into the game. (not to mention champions - a whole class - that rely on early game aggression otherwise they cannot snowball mid game)
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 31
Dear @Meddler @MapleNectar I was wondering if you will be taking away some of the armor and magic resist stats you gave to tanks / juggernauts / etc. to off-set the removal of runes in patch 7.22. Most tanks / juggernauts got between 9 - 20 armor which was quite ok because the new rune system did not provide armor at the start. However this Stat Shard system now provides resistances at the beginning of the game so shouldn't the base stats of those classes be lowered?
: Preseason Dev Update Number 3!
Dear @Meddler @MapleNectar I was wondering if you will be taking away some of the armor and magic resist stats you gave to tanks / juggernauts / etc. to off-set the removal of runes in patch 7.22. Most tanks / juggernauts got between 9 - 20 armor which was quite ok because the new rune system did not provide armor at the start. However this Stat Shard system now provides resistances at the beginning of the game so shouldn't the base stats of those classes be lowered? TLDR: they got compensated in patch 7.22 due to the new rune system and now they are getting another buff in resistances EARLY game. Could you please look into this because top lane is already a lane where there is zero interaction if the tank wants to play it just slightly safe. Is there a chance where you make tanks a scaling class again? The raw base stats completely kill top lane and you are constantly buffing bruisers just to catch up to juggernauts and tanks (Fiora still at 47% win rate as a true damage carry). The traditional weakness of tanks used to be their early game...that was completely wiped away in Season 8 which caused a lot of problem both in lane and out of lane.
Jansuo (EUNE)
: Season 4
Bring it back! League is dying...this season is the medicine!
: Preseason Development Update 1
> We’re moving the minion spawn and monster spawn times about 30-40 seconds earlier. We want to leave room for invades and other interesting early strategies, but in 95% of games players end up waiting around for 30s. In our efforts to make LoL the best game it can be for the vast majority of you, we think streamlining this phase lets you get to the fun quicker. I would be very careful about this. You are removing more and more options and opportunities from the game. We are going to end up HOTS level of dumbness. First the rune system, then dead champs gain xp, then death timers are lowered early game, now you artificially lengthen laning phase AND you remove the every exciting moments of invading the enemy jungle. You are removing FUN and CHOICES from this game. How about taking a look at Season 4? Simple fun which people enjoyed and it made Riot tons of money instead of losing players due to overbuffed tanks in season 8? How about looking at those earlier seasons?
: My Core Issues With Top Lane in Season 8
Completely agree with you OP. Also stop trying...in Season 8 they overtuned tanks / juggernauts with Runes Reforged so much that it literally does not matter what you do to them. I say stop trying because I tried it several times...the forums are ruled by silver kids who play tanks because they are horrible at the game. We had a Garen / Mundo top lane meta for how long? Months? Half a fucking season? Nobody cared that two champions who have the WORST / TOXIC / LINEAR kits in the game can be META? A kit that involves you running towards your enemy is good for the game? The only way these kits were viable is because they were artificially overtuned by Riot for absolutely no other reason just to ruin soloQ experience. To make a kit like that viable they had to buff them so much that it is outright impossible to lane against a Garen who has half a brain? Why should a player invest time into learning "hard" champions like Irelia / Fiora / Camille / Jax when you can play a zero IQ tank and be just as effective or even more useful than carries?? Has anyone at Riot's balance team EVER asked the question why TF Blade rushes Tiamat to push the lane and make plays elsewhere? Oh could it be that it no longer matters what you do top lane? Could it be that I can kill a Chogath 5 times and he is still invulnerable mid game? Could it be that Nasus is no longer a stacking late game monster but 1v1s you lvl6 without problems because of the free stats they pumped into his ult? Could it be that Garen can just wait a few seconds out of combat to enjoy his free Warmogs so he cannot be pushed out of lane anymore (also partly due to the FREE STATS he gets from W passive)? Garen is supposed to teach you the game yet he has a 52% win rate in diamond? (then these silver shits talk about kiting...interesting so diamond players forgot what kiting is or how the fuck is his win rate so high there???) Could it be that a huge fucking company does not see this as the MAIN REASON that the game has become unfun and one lane is completely dead?? One lane is ruined out of 3... Edit: Just look at big brain colton147 here, he has all the answers. HE IS SILVER FUCKING 4 after 227 levels and mains tanks. He could not escape low silver after so much time so what did you expect? He does not even know what the game is like in higher elos yet here he is opening his gaping mouth spouting bullshit. This is the forum in a nutshell.
Reav3 (NA)
: We definitely care about Diana. We have actually tried doing a mini-rework on her internally twice, but both got scrapped because we couldn't find something that we thought would be good enough. We wan't to do something with her, but we want to make sure it's good. We could also wait a little longer and get through some higher priority VGUs and then do a Diana/Leona VGU like we are doing with K&M, where we do bigger kit stuff to Diana and a smaller mostly VU to Leona. That could be pretty cool as well. Time will tell.
> [{quoted}](name=Reav3,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0YgbTFIJ,comment-id=000400180000,timestamp=2018-08-27T16:21:27.759+0000) > > We definitely care about Diana. We have actually tried doing a mini-rework on her internally twice, but both got scrapped because we couldn't find something that we thought would be good enough. We wan't to do something with her, but we want to make sure it's good. We could also wait a little longer and get through some higher priority VGUs and then do a Diana/Leona VGU like we are doing with K&M, where we do bigger kit stuff to Diana and a smaller mostly VU to Leona. That could be pretty cool as well. Time will tell. Dear Reav3, Please do NOT do a full rework of Diana. Everything about her is iconic: her kit, her model (armor and weapon), her playstyle, and her voice (best voice actress in League). She is a hallmark champion in League of Legends just like Leblanc. Changes would likely destroy the champions identity and Aatrox rework was bad enough. There is no Diana without her Crescent shaped skillshot or her top notch quotes. Can you at least **confirm** at this point that she will only receive a mini-rework and not a full relaunch? The champ has 51% win rate and a solid 4% play rate, she is being played across all elos. I'd really appreciate any answer you can give us. Thank you.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 3
Yes...buff tanks and nerf everything assassin related. We have too many assassins in pro-play. The holy trinity returns: Tanks - Aoe Mages - ADCs Tanks - super fun, super well designed class, every player's dream to play them or against them. AOE Mages - for some reason they are welcome to deal massive aoe damage to a whole team BUT single target burst is bad. Ok. ADCs - God forbid this class ever became weak. Meanwhile assassins and bruisers just go and die in a corner because having exciting kits and focus on outplay is somehow "bad" for a "competitive" game. You decided to battle high damage with high sustain / tankiness (Resolve tree, bone plating etc.). That broke tanks / juggernats but helped nobody else. The results? Weak early game of tanks is now gone. Bruisers are getting buillied out of top lane. People are actually playing Garen and Chogath mid lane because they shrug off poke damage. Jungle Trundle still is oppressive. as ever. I am not hating on these champions nor do I think juggernauts and tanks are evil. I merely think that the way you pumped tankiness into this season to counter the high damage completely turned things upside down. There are killable roles: bruisers, assassins, adcs, supports And then we have tanks / juggernauts who need at least 2 or 3 people to lock down and kill. When Season 8 hit and you guys did Runes Reforged you adjusted the base stats of every tank and juggernaut and left almost all other class's base numbers intact. You assumed that all tanks / juggernauts would take tanky Quint runes hence you gifted them base stats. Then we have other classes like mages and adcs (Orianna with a starting armor of 17) and a high impact rune system. And then we wonder why these squishy targets dissappear. The solutio is not to cherry pick assassins and nerf them into the ground but perhaps to look at the classes whose base numbers you did not adjust and see if you can help everybody instead of gimping just one class by gutting Domination. If you decide to nerf everything assassin related (pretty much everything you listed is used by assassins) AND you don't address the current state of juggernauts / tanks then things will be even worse. People want a fun and exciting game which is just impossible until you address not just the damage but the tankiness issue.
: Garen? Weak early game? Garen, Mundo always useful because of bulk and CC? I agree that both are over the top atm, but your "analysis" shows disregard for meta-games from 6 out of 8 years. Most of their existence (S2 Atmogs meta aside) Garen and to a lesser extend Mundo were dead before they could even get close to an ADC, due to how busted crit and arpen were for YEARS. Just because YOU like everything to blow up instantly doesn't mean others do. As for your claim that League is losing viewers to tanky metas - the huge difference between LoL and Dota2 used to be TTK, particularly in older seasons when LoL wasn't as pre-dominant as it is now. League's slower and easier to follow pace was one of the reason why this game succeeded against Dota2. Sadly it's already going into that very games direction since the runes rework. Burst mages like Blanc, Zoe, Ahri, Ekko and assassins like Talon, Zed and Kha (Quinn) dominate solo queue across all elos. So maybe your observation of League losing viewers is based on the exact opposite of the what you claim.
> Most of their existence (S2 Atmogs meta aside) Garen and to a lesser extend Mundo were dead before they could even get close to an ADC, due to how busted crit and arpen were for YEARS. So the argument here is that they should be broken now because they were weak for years? I don't really agree with that. > Just because YOU like everything to blow up instantly doesn't mean others do It is not even about blowing up stuff anymore it is having a laning phase where you can get ahead. If a Garen / Mundo decides to just play it safe or just keep a little distance you are NEVER gonna get a chance to duel and / or kill them. If he is low Garen can just wait for 10 seconds in xp range and enjoy his free warmog. And no, I am not hating on these champions. I feel Runes Reforged overtuned most juggernauts and tanks. Darius can walk up and auto me to death with little to no counterplay because he is so tanky. At the same time mages and adc-s did not get their base stats adjusted (for Example Orianna still starts with 17 armor??) hence assassins pick them apart just like you say. Ever wonder why people are starting to bring Darius / Garen / Cho etc mid lane? Because they are so tanky with base stats that they don't give a damn about poke damage. Nevertheless at least Assassins / Mages / ADCs / Supports are able to have impactful laning phases. Top lane if a tank / juggernaut walks to lane there is little else to do than push the lane with a Tiamat and roam. This is what Meddler wrote in his Gamepay Thoughts in january 24: > Laning in general: > A period of small scale PVP, where it’s your skill against one or two opponents most of the time. Tests different skills from team fighting in particular. > Should last for a fair duration and success during lane should set you up with a meaningful advantage post laning phase. If you win hard enough, and translate that lead into a wider advantage for your team, that could be very influential in deciding the game outcome. > Your choice of champ relative to your opponents should matter, but shouldn’t decide the lane (strength in counter-picking, but not hard counters). > Success should come from both how you play the lane (farming, zoning, trading etc) and how you contribute strategically during the laning period (roaming, TPing, objectives etc). > Lanes should have frequent interaction between champions, not just passive farming. And I fully agree with these points but NOTHING of them actually apply when you are facing a tank / juggernaut . No PvP, no skill expression, nothing but boring farming.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 27
Dear @Meddler, Garen (juggernaut) 12% play rate 53% win rate. Mundo (tank) 8% play rate 51% win rate. The two of these already account for 20% of all the picks top lane. They are destroying the lane. No skill expression, full farm lane whenever they come to lane. If you look at the statistics DUELISTS LOSE against these champions. I repeat MAX PERCENT HEALTH true damage carry like Fiora LOSES against these guys. Tanks always had godlike scaling, dirt cheap items, very low skill ceiling (and skill cap) AND they were useful even when behind since control (cc) is not dependent on how well you did in lane. To counter all this they had a **weak early game.** Not in Season 8...in this season they are tanky already early game and they just get unkillable 1v1 after 1 item. That goes against your philosophy of laning (pvp action, skill expression etc) You talk about helping tanks, how about giving them back their traditional weakness? Or should a class exist that is strong from early to late and takes 50 IQ to play? Will that be good for a "competitive" game? Tanks are underplayed because they are not fun, require very little skill. Nobody wants to see a Maokai farm for 20 mins or a Mundo throwing axes from a safe distance for 20 mins. They literally scare away viewers from streams. League is losing players / viewers. Nobody, NOBODY wants to watch tanks people want to see exciting stuff. Tanks / Juggernauts are already pushing out bruisers top lane, if you force these changes a lot of players will just stop playing top lane or leave League altogether. Just look at Chogath and Nasus. You spent months buffing them to the point where they are unkillable in lane 1v1 and STILL nobody plays them. If a champion has a bad kit the answer is not buffing them to viability but perhaps address why the kit is unattractive. You just "opened up bot lane" and you repeat time and time again that you don't want a stale meta. The top lane meta is already stale. You want to FORCE PEOPLE to play tanks now that runs counter to everything you have done to the game so far. There is nothing, no statistics no data out there that warrants buffing this class. Let people decide what they want to play. I really hope that you can address some points in my comment.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 24
@Meddler 2018/22/07 Garen 12% play reate Mundo 9% play rate Both above 50% win rate across ALL ELOS. You certainly did not fix anything top lane and there is no reason to learn complex champions anymore. Can we expect anything?
Rioter Comments
: the leblanc rework was a failure
It is disillusioning to see the replies here. They reflect the average attitude and level of intelligence of the community. Before the recent rework her play rate was around 8% with a 47% win rate (champion.gg and op.gg) So what are you guys on about? She was never oppressive and in plat+ elo you needed to be very good to get an advantage in lane. Above that..high diamond and upwards she was not even played because people could counter her very easily. The rework moved her damage into her passive which means that instead of having to balance several parts of her kit now her whole kit revolves around ONE THING, the passive. Having only one thing to balance opposed to several made Leblanc even more unbalanceable hence she was pushed into the gutters and left to rot. What is so hard to understand about this, The guy responsible (Ricklessabandon) has shown complete incompetence when working on champions. He destroyed Viktor / Azir / Nidalee / Akali / Leblanc...all these great champion are now useless in League. But of course you guys want to have it easy..you don't want to learn to play against Leblanc or any assassin. You don't want to learn what "mispositiniong" means or what non-mechanical counterplay stands for? You don't want to itemize against Leblanc but you are fine with Annie instabursting a whole team with point n click abilities. You guys deserve a dumb game and apparently Riot is going to give it to ya.
: @Riot Sigh, Another troll game with people banning your picks
The most disheartening thing here is the state of Akali. Riot....you are removing fun from the game. Yeah...give them Redemption, give them plants...cement the tank meta with Nasus buffs and Courage of the Colossus while the reworked assassins are unplayable.
: cotc is the stupidest thing to happen to this game
It is stupid on tanks and even stupider on Yasuo. Riot is losing it....no idea what the thought process was behind making such a hideous mastery.
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ThrowsTheBird

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