: Part of the intention of 10 bans is to open up ban slots for more than just banning champions you and other people don't like AFAIK.
People will never ban actual powerpicks, everyone will ban obnoxious champions instead.
: You'll have to learn too many champions per role if they start banning your guys. Its hard to master a champ for ranked purposes.
fixed if you don't play FOTM or annoying champs
: I play champs that people ban for reasons other than being too strong. Having 10 bans gives them far more opportunity to do that. As for the claim that it will only remove 1/13th of the total roster: while technically true, lets not pretend that all champs are banned equally. Assassins are banned far more than any other class even when they're just slightly above average, while a mage or support can be OP for ages and never get banned. Hell, Ivern has a 57% winrate and I still see him open all the goddamn time because he's not the kind of champ people are inclined to ban. If you main champs like {{champion:161}}, 10 bans is almost guaranteed to not affect you. Main {{champion:238}}? Prepare for your 48% winrate champ being banned because people hate assassins.
As a {{champion:161}} i agree. He's sitting at 53% winrate and higher permanently, people bitch about him being ridiculously broken yet he's never banned.
: How is the lowest base movement speed in the game "decent", and how is being one of the squishiest champs in the game with no hard cc on a basic spell "decent survivability"? To boot, Sona can't 1v1 for shit just as much as Ivern can't. And how does Ivern's abilities BACKFIRE outside of using W next to Teemo/Rengar/Khaz'ix?
Yeah, let's pretend Sona doesn't burst you for at least 1/2 of your hp every time she can ;) Sona is very decent at 1v1. As for backfiring, his passive costs 1/3 of his health in early game which makes him extremely vulnerable. If he marks multiple camps he dies to breeze. Allies dying from clicking on Q'd target? Every. Fucking. Game. W? It can really backfire when enemy zones you out of these brushes, if you don't have a ward on hand you're giving your enemy SERIOUS advantage. E's duration is rather short for a shield, specifically 2.5x shorter than Janna's. This means it's reactive rather than proactive. Slow/damage is very telegraphed as well as easy to dodge.
: Actual math for one level 18 Powerchord Q on one target: (160 + 329 + 60) base + (.2 + .28 + .5) scaling = 549 base + .98 Scaling And it isn't every 5 seconds. It's every third spell, whatever that may translate to in practice.
{{item:3100}} is still extremely popular on her. And even without it, 549 base+0.98 scaling is ridiculously strong considering its range, cooldown and reliability. Next, Q has 4.8s CD at 0% CDR, which means she can Q->powerchord->W->E->Q->powerchord to nuke twice in 4.8s. If she wants to do that again, she has to wait 1-2 seconds more, but it's still TONS of damage.
: When was the last game you saw where Sona has the time/income to complete 5 items?
Not a Sona - related issue, affects every support. She doesn't scale any harder with items than any other support.
: > [{quoted}](name=Verdade,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aofAyM3w,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-26T14:33:11.086+0000) > > Sona has {{item:3190}} {{item:3107}} {{item:2049}} in her core build, and that alone makes her tankier than half of the roster. Sona doesn't start level 1 with a Locket and Redemption. > Sion has 1784 base HP and 74 base armor, Zed has 1939 HP and 86 armor. Therefore, according to your own logic, Sion is squishy and Zed is tank No. Sion has an infinitely scaling HP passive, so he starts out squishy to make room for his INFINITELY SCALING HP PASSIVE. > As far MS goes, Sona can have permanent 14%(0.06AP) MS with 0% CDR at level 16+, which alone makes her more mobile than half of the roster. Additionally, {{item:3504}} {{item:3100}} are very popular on her, making her move even faster and buffing her MS boost as well. What support gets to level 16 consistently enough for this point to matter? > Sona with T2 boots, LB and Censer has: Why are you putting items in your depiction of Sona's mobility?
17 champions have less HP/level than Sona 4 champions have less base HP than Sona 22 champions have less base armor than Sona 31 champions have less armor/level than Sona ______________ 24 champions have same base MS as Sona (325) 8 of which have less total MS (if you account for her steroid), rest have jumps/dashes or various strength __________________ Shit about supports not reaching lv16 consistently etc. applies to every other support, so its invalid.
Rozzeta (NA)
: Having autotarget is rather bad in a support, since she has no skills for bush checking other than having to place a ward on it, which migh not be the best if you have all deployed already.
Sure, im all for giving her skillshots. Let's see how it will turn out, but im 100% sure "Sona mains" will cry because they just lost they 100% undodgable nuke. The fact she can deal instant and undodgeable 1.4 AP+631 damage at 550 range every 5 seconds is pretty fucking disgusting.
: This enemy (Brand) stops my engage by killing my team! perfeclty fine and balanced. This enemy (Janna) Stops my engage by reporistioning our team slightly and shielding one person! GUT IT FFS RITO WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU. You people make no sense at all. Soraka, Janna, Lulu, Karma, Sona, are among the healthiest in the game. Your reasoning for them being unhealthy, is because they can stop you just braindead assfucking the enemy team. Solid logic.
If your team gets killed by Brand they sure fucked up big time.
: and Zyra/Brand don't have the same shit?
: Except he **IS **wrong though: * Weakest heal in the game * Weakest shield in the game * Shortest-duration shield in the game * Crappy MS that's weaker than Nami's passive Literally everyone has blinks and dashes, Sona is a free kill or a free burned Flash the moment anybody looks at her funny.
Sona has {{item:3190}} {{item:3107}} {{item:2049}} in her core build, and that alone makes her tankier than half of the roster. Sion has 1784 base HP and 74 base armor, Zed has 1939 HP and 86 armor. Therefore, according to your own logic, Sion is squishy and Zed is tank _______________ As far MS goes, Sona can have permanent 14%(0.06AP) MS with 0% CDR at level 16+, which alone makes her more mobile than half of the roster. Additionally, {{item:3504}} {{item:3100}} are very popular on her, making her move even faster and buffing her MS boost as well. Sona with T2 boots, LB and Censer has: 325+26 (censer)+22(LB)+45(T2 boots)+73 (E) - soft cap reduction = 475 PERMANENT MOVEMENT SPEED which makes her extremely mobile.
Pika310 (NA)
: Did you really just claim Sona, the champion with the lowest effective HP in the game, has survivability? Did you just say a champion with 325 base MS, the lowest MS tier in the game, has decent MS? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. I legitimately feel pity for you.
I like how you ignored everything else i said LOL Talk about bias Edit: Interestingly enough, Sona is NOT the champion with lowest EHP in game ;)
Eedat (NA)
: > Look, you're going to need to learn, that Winrate alone is not whether something should get nerfed Yet when any champ that isnt a mage or support hits similar numbers, the board forms a lynch mob to destroy them. I.E. Lucian, Jhin, Vayne, Lee, etc. "High pickrate should deflate their winrate! High pick rate and win rate means they're a generalist!"
Problem is, if Lucian or Lee or Vayne become meta, they also become ban/pick. This isn't as bad in other lanes because there are pretty versatile champions. Jungle requires fast and safe clears with strong ganking presence. If Lee becomes meta, all junglers worse than him are just bad. Same goes for ADCs, because all they do is damage. Whoever gets more reliable damage is better than the rest. It seems only Ashe kinda sticks out, as shes ADC safe pick, because she offers tons of utility as well. Support, mid and top offer much more utility, which directly translates into versatility. While there are powerpicks, theres also large amount of "evergreens" who preform well in nearly every meta, such as Blitz, Janna, Orianna, Velkoz, Darius.
Pika310 (NA)
: Winrate propaganda aside(LB & Yas were both nerfed when they were already at like 43% winrate,) enchanters aren't allowed to be good in this game. Sona in particular is strongly hated by a number of influential Rito employees; Meddler, Jag, Repertoir; I could list a dozen names, but those are 3 of the big ones. Also, Ivern is brand new and filled with potential for **#LC$BIGPLAY$**, in a time when their viewership is declining for multiple unrelated reasons, Rito is trying to increase revenue from pro games. Sona was everywhere in season 2, Meddler as a Janna main is tired of seeing her strongest counter enough for one lifetime. Short answer: BIAS. Pure simple Rito BIAS.
I like how you are intentionally ignoring skill requirements for both champions... Sona is faceroll QWE with autotargeting on 4/5 of her kit with decent MS/survivability Ivern is jungler with worst ability to trade, can't 1v1 for shit, his abilities require considerable timing and skill input and most his abilities can backfire
snarin (EUW)
: Don't know about rework, but here you go fam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fH_BGIg0RE
i know that skin exists, but it has nothing to do with any other traditional skin
Jaredc3 (NA)
: Maybe it's just me but I can't play vel against him because of how immobile vel is, and he can just dash out of your ult so quick and windwall your q and w. But maybe it's just me as a bronzie lol
Vel doesn't have to hit yasuo once, that's the trick. Yasuo can't touch Velkoz in lane if Velkoz doesnt want to.
snarin (EUW)
: Well, you are wrong about it being 3, because Lee Sin has a traditional as well. I don't know the exact number of traditionals myself. But even one case is enough to set a precedent, by definition. Personally, I think a traditional skin is more rewarding to the old mains, but since it requires relatively much work, they can also look at quicker options -such as excl. summoner icons.
Dude what? Traditional lee sin? Lee sin wasn't reworked or anything.
: If you are good enough, that last part is true, but it is still best to counterpick. If someone goes {{champion:161}} into my Yasuo, he won't be able to deny me any gold, he will be my personal minion.
As a {{champion:161}} i crap on every yasuo i meet
: What are some good counters to Yasuo?
{{champion:161}} {{champion:78}}
: Why is she getting buffed at all is the better question.
Because she's pretty damn weak? She is keeping her win rate only because she's really safe and easy to play. She desperately needs damage buffs, but that's not happening because she's just too oppressive and there's no counter to her range. She doesn't have to come close. If they significantly nerfed QER base damages and massivelly buffed her passive, it might do the trick.
: Why is Lux getting buffed in such a ridiculous manner?
This change promotes something Riot has been very consistent about: disliking long-range fire and forget abilities. They removed Nida's nuclear-tipped spears because they were oppressive. If they want to make Lux better, they should move QER damage to her passive. This allows buffing her numbers significantly (which is very needed, her numbers are very anemic) while nerfing Q/E spam and giving her enemies more room to counterplay.
LuIú (NA)
: Neither of them are mages. Blitzcrank gets smashed if he goes anyway else, and so does Leona (who is also not a support). Naut is efficient top, jungle, or support. They're healthy for the meta, as opposed to doing 50% of your health level 2.
Naut can easily take 50% of your health at level 2. So can Sona and Karma...
LuIú (NA)
: 17% of the time support is played, it's by champions that aren't supports. Where did I say it was taking over the role?
Blitzcrank and Nautilus aren't supports either and somehow you're okay with them
Tôast (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Tôast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4VKEOtdy,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T16:10:13.622+0000) > > Here's the thing. Ranked matchmaking would be much much slower than mmr matchmaking. > > For ranked mm to get you from s3 to s1 it would take you 11 + 2 + 11 + 2 for a total of 26 games with only 2 losses. while it only takes 10 + 5 for a total of 15 games with 8 losses (and 8 wins including the free win) I'm not entirely sure if you even read it. What's above pretty much summarizes the difference between ranked mm (what you want basically) and mmr mm (what we have right now). And, honestly, if it takes you more than 50 games to get out of a cesspit than maybe you weren't such a good player in the first place ;P
http://i.imgur.com/d4edfCA.png http://i.imgur.com/fG6qEqb.png http://i.imgur.com/x6T6MLo.png Do you see what is my problem now?
Tôast (NA)
: I'm going to assume you meant to link me to your post and not that comment. Basically what you want is to be matched against silvers because your rank is silver rather than mmr correct? Here's the thing. Ranked matchmaking would be much much slower than mmr matchmaking. +20 LP on a win and -20 LP on a loss. Let's say out of 10 games you lose 1. 90% Winrate, not that bad. For every 10 games you gain +80 LP. So it takes about 11 games to get into a series. Now with mmr matchmaking you win 50% of your games since you're against equal teams with +30 on a win and -8 on a loss. Over the course of 10 gains your net LP gain is (150-40) 110. Which gets you into a series. But the only problem here is promos and so with ranked mm you win your promos and go to s3 to s2. Now let's say you lose your promos with mmr mmj and go down to 84 LP. You win a game, getting back into promos, get a free win, lose a game, then win a game. To get through these promos you got through: 2 losses, 1 win to get back in, 1 loss, and 1 win for a total of 5 games to play vs 2 but you skip a division and go from s3 to s1. For ranked mm to get you from s3 to s1 it would take you 11 + 2 + 11 + 2 for a total of 26 games with only 2 losses. while it only takes 10 + 5 for a total of 15 games with 8 losses (and 8 wins including the free win) Now you might say what about both! Why can't I get +30 LP on a win and get matched against silvers and skip a division so I only have to play 6 maybe 7 games to get from s3 to s1!! To an extent they already do. I've stated before that even with my higher mmr I was still frequently matched against players of the same rank (G3 level) getting me more wins than losses yet still getting around +25 LP per win and -15 LP per loss. Although I didn't skip divisions is was fairly easy to climb.
Of course its possible to climb, but it's far slower than it should be. Are you a good player and you got placed into cesspit? Too bad, it will take 200 games to climb out of it...
: This is your smurf that got placed higher than your main but was lower than your main last season, right? Because if it is right then you are complaining about the one issue that actually exists with the ranked system. The whole promotion/division thing is BS as it doesn't properly reflect your actual strength as a player and is simply missleading people about your skill. In my opinion transparent display of a players skill is all that a rank system should do - or the most important thing atleast. Well GL dude, you will probably skip at one point.
Nope, i played both accounts simultaneously. One got to P2, the other to P3. It's because i have friends on both EUW and EUNE, so i play both accounts
Nymzo (NA)
: Oh man, even when there's only one of the ''Fantastic Four'': {{champion:63}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:90}}{{champion:161}} (heard that somewhere, will always use that term to describe them now), you do NOT want to use Leona or Alistar against them unless you're a masochist or you know that your jungler is going to gank a lot at bot lane. Just trying to use relic shield on the minions is a pain, don't even think about engaging them without you getting your ass kick. Especially Leona, she's sooo vulnerable to poke. At least Alistar has a heal.
NEVER pick alistar against Vel'koz. {{champion:12}} : "MOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" mashes R intensely {{champion:161}} uses R :"Tears appear to serve no function."
Arakadia (NA)
: So one single point made his entire post wrong?
Okay, so let me rephrase. You're NOT support main, you're not even ADC main. You build frozen gauntlet on Veigar, Liandry's on Bard and ridiculous crap like Bard jungle and whatanot. Your points aren't backed by anything, no explanations, no experience, just your opinion.
Tôast (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Tôast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4VKEOtdy,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-20T18:29:53.629+0000) > And what about his promos? If he wins as much as he loses than it's likely that he will win a game to get into his promos, win another, than lose the next two losing his promos!!! > Rito has overall made the ranked system a much better place to climb due to MMR. It's easier since you gain more LP than you lose if your hidden mmr is higher than your rank mmr, **get a free win on your second promos, can skip divisions**., etc. It's also much easier to spot where your "peak" is. Example if you went on a long win streak and climbed from Silver 2 to Plat 4 but suddenly lose a few than you can assume that you're probably around the Plat 5 level. > I don't think it screws you that hard tbh. I've skipped S5 to S3 and went from S3 to S1 which saves me an extra 12 **wins** (not games but wins) which is pretty huge imo
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xuT9wjBN-problem-with-climbing?comment=00000000000000000000
Goku7474 (NA)
: matchmaking makes the mmr of both teams as a sum pretty close together, so actually your teams are pretty even, if your playing with higher elo players then your team mates are as well.
That's true, however my impact on the game is much lower. I can't carry as well against plats as i would carry against silvers, which makes these promos much harder
Goku7474 (NA)
: that image is literally unreadable lol
That image is clearly readable, just click it.
Goku7474 (NA)
: If you gain 30lp per win then you aint movin slow lol, idk if you expect to jump all these divions in 10 games, its a climb for a reason.
Read the post. Getting 30lp per win is okay, it makes me climb faster. HOWEVER Getting matched against players 10 divisions above me makes climb MUCH slower. That's my problem. I literally spend more time in promos than in non-promos.
Tôast (NA)
: Flex is totally different from solo/duo and the problems with flex are very much different than in solo/duo. In flex, you can queue with your silver friends even if your diamond since your flex rank is the same as your friends which completely screws the MMR balancing of the game. I've had games in flex where the MMR differential is 400 because of this which makes flex fairly uneven. The problems with solo/duo are different because you can't queue a diamond player with bronze player (unless smurfing/duo boosting). So what are the problems with solo/duo? From the perspective of the boards, it is Rito working against them by matching them with trolls, feeders, etc on their team causing a sudden streak of losses after a couple of wins. Additionally, as OP brings up, "Why is it that in my promos, the teams will be equal, Plat 3s-Plat 1s Vs. Plat 3s-Diamond 5s, but yet, when I get promoted I get a Gold 2/3 on my team and some Plat 4s to carry against a team of Plat 3s and 2s?" The answer is simple. MMR Matchmaking. For the same reason you will get "uneven" teams at rank face value (e.g. a gold with plat mmr vs a diamond with plat mmr due to the gold going on a win streak and diamond on a loss streak) you will be able to climb as the gold in this scenario "Why have the league system if you are going to just face people of your own skill anyway? How will a person climb from Gold 3 to Plat 5 if they are constantly matched with people that are Plat 4/5/G1?" Let me elaborate. If the Gold 3 is going against G1s-P4s then it is probably due to the Golds MMR being equal to that of the G1s-P4s. When your MMR is higher than your current rank mmr you gain more LP than you lose. So if you're up against equally skilled players (e.g. your level MMR players) you will continue to climb EVEN IF WIN AS MANY GAMES YOU LOSE. When you are winning as much as you lose then you are at that level of skill. Losses are expected after large win streaks you will start to be matched against **equally skilled players**so you will start to win 50% of the time. Let's go back to the Gold 3 example. The Gold has been winning a number of games because he has been matched against lower skilled players and therefore his MMR has increased to a Plat level. He will start facing against Plats equal to his and although he wins 4 games and loses 4 games he still gains a net +40 LP since he gets +25 LP on a win and -15 LP on a loss. Yet he only gains 40 LP when he needs more than 200 LP just to get to G1. Why is Rito making this harder for him???? And what about his promos? If he wins as much as he loses than it's likely that he will win a game to get into his promos, win another, than lose the next two losing his promos!!! Here's the thing. Rito has added the MMR system to make it easier to climb. If you're MMR is high enough, you will skip divisions. In the case of the Gold 3 I do think it's possible but I think the alternative that he will be placed against Gold 2s and 3s lower than his skill level yet equal to rank is much more likely. I say this from personal experience. When I recently climbed from Gold 3 to Plat 5, only occasionally did I get a game a against equal MMR players. For the most part, I was facing against the same rank players making it much easier to climb. I only started frequently facing against Plat 4s when I was G1, at that point where the ranked discrepancy is not that high (compared to Gold 3 of course). Rito has overall made the ranked system a much better place to climb due to MMR. It's easier since you gain more LP than you lose if your hidden mmr is higher than your rank mmr, get a free win on your second promos, can skip divisions., etc. It's also much easier to spot where your "peak" is. Example if you went on a long win streak and climbed from Silver 2 to Plat 4 but suddenly lose a few than you can assume that you're probably around the Plat 5 level. It also should be noted that if you get trolls, feeders, etc on your team after a win streak it's just UNLUCKY and no more. You never hear about the people who got a free promos due to an afk twice on the enemy team. My Plat 5 promos was so free because of this. I played two games in which the enemy had a troll and got easy wins. I've also had games where the opposite has happens and I get the troll. At the end of the day, it's just unlucky and knowing whether or not a player will troll in a ranked game is out of control of the match making system. Any questions? TL;DR MMR system helps with climbing. You can climb with a 50% winrate with the MMR system since you gain more Lp than you lose with high mmr. Just unlucky with trolls on your team.
This is true, however when your MMR vastly exceeds your rank, you get buttfuked by promos. How does this work? Im S5. I play 30 games and get into S2 with 75% winrate. Now i have high gold/low plat MMR. All is fine, i gain 30 LP/win, -8lp/lose. However, promos require you to WIN 2/3 games, so your MMR doesn't work here and you have to win against enemies MUCH higher than your actual division. This slows me down considerably, as i would literally stomp S2 players, however stomping plats is MUCH harder. This means i have to play alot more games, which is just waste of time thanks to broken system. All would be fixed if promos gave me LP towards my next division, so if i got 2/0 in promos i would start with ~60 LP instead of 0...
Goku7474 (NA)
: After you lose a promo series your given a free win on your next attempt and then you only have to win 1 of 2 games, so its not that bad tbh
still wastes TONS of time. Even with this and ocassional division skip (G5->G3 instead of G4) its way too slow.
Marshad (EUW)
: Making support an attractive role
Your post is garbage because of the 2. point. Mage supports aren't even played much, they have tons of counterplay, they are squishy and immobile.
LuIú (NA)
: Support is fine where it's at, minus the mages taking the role like Zyra/Brand/Malz
http://i.imgur.com/FIVMUHd.png DAMN THESE MAGE SUPPORTS TAKING OVER SUPPORT ROLE!!!!111!!1elven!!!! /s Seriously, Brand, Zyra and Malzahar combined are played less than Thresh...
: Thats way too hardcore/non casual friendly for me No thank you i dont play LoL 10 hours a day
Rioter Comments
Mooomoooo (EUW)
: I find it funny how all the hardstuck players make this stuff up. Last season it was dynamic queue now its this xD. No clue where you even get this from stop blaming your team and git gud.
Actually, im in S3 despite having 62% winrate in P2 last season. Why? Because i don't want to play, i have MMR of Gold1, i get 30+ LP per match, but even then it takes like 7 games to get ONE DIVISION. It's ridiculous crap, i can't dedicate so much time for fking video game.
Xonra (NA)
: They push out most of the other potential supports, as well as multiple adcs. - When you have all the mages, they usually have higher scaling, so they need less ap itemization to have high damage. - They are going to have as much CC as "normal" supports with more damage to back it up - They will almost ALL have really really good (and damaging) poke, making less immobile adcs, let alone immobile mages rough to play and lane into them - They imbalance damage as a whole, as you go from the high CC, high sustain, high tank, or high utility (or any combination of those) to, high damage, and high CC, with potential utility. - It actually LOWERS the support champ pool because it goes from healers/ultilty mages/tanks to damage and poke. - As soon as mages start becoming popular in support, they are almost immediately nerfed (see Malz), which means now they HAVE to stay support, because they are no longer properly viable against Mages that weren't played support (See, nerfs to Malz again, Zyra, and even Morg previously, compared to Syndra who hasn't been a popular support. She is flat out better than all three if they tried to go against her in mid solo now, because of nerfs from being played support), so they are either down tools for solo lanes, or down damage (or both). The other issues I have are more player related issues, and not the champs themselves, like people refusing to buy sight stone. As a support player, I foam at the mouth seeing Brand "support" just going full ap with no sight stone, while bursting down my adc (and me) and probably my jungler, and no real way to punish them for it without having to trade something in order to do it.
It seems you misunderstand how do support mages work. Let me explain. - Support mages don't care that much about their scaling (which really sucks, hi {{champion:63}} {{champion:143}} ). They gain most of their power via MRpen and items/masteries ({{item:3151}} {{item:3151}} , DFT/Thunderlords) - I don't think this is in case. Brand has single-target stun with 2 conditions (hitting skillshot, target burning), Vel'koz has short, targeted AOE knockup with significant delay, Malz has hard CC tied to his R, and he stuns himself doing it. Only Zyra has good CC. If you compare it with real supports, Janna has AOE knockup and large AOE knockback, Naut/Leona/Thresh are stunbots, Lulu has extremely reliable CC as well... - they are immobile themselves and they are really hardcountered by poke as well. This is the reason why Varus/Ezreal are so used, they simply outpoke these mages. - Again, there is nothing like high damage AND high CC. - It doesn't lower anything. It's rock-paper-scissors... Support mages are hardcountered by engage supports (Blitz, Naut, Thresh), who get countered by tank supports (Leo, Alistar, Braum) who are countered by peel (Lulu, Janna, Nami) who are countered by heal (Raka, Sona) -Vel'koz wasn't nerfed when he started to transition into bot lane, if anything he was buffed. But yes, it's a shame most of them are getting nerfed. As far sightstone goes, yes, it is an issue. Most people think that "no sightstone = no vision", which is completely false. On the contrary, mage supports NEED vision, because they are squishy and immobile. They don't have gold to build Zhonya's or Abyssal, so Vision is the only thing the have. If you look at stats, you'll see support mages have the most pink wards/game and the highest pink ward uptime of all supports, they are just not willing to spend 800 gold for one item early in the game. One more reasoning why mage supports don't like sightstone: If Janna dies in late-game it's not end of the world. Your team is weaker, but its still possible to win teamfights. If Brand dies, well, you've lost huge chunk of your teamfighting power and you can't fight until he's up. Janna has sick mobility and she's very hard to catch, which means she can go solo warding with pretty low risk involved. Brand is much slower, squishier, can't CC his pursuers to oblivion and he's really easy to gank. These 2 facts make warding really unappealing for mage supports, especially in late-game.
Illâoi (EUW)
: Reasonable arguments or arguments you accept? I have no problem with them existing. I think most champions should able to Support to a certain degree *if* they are forced to trade some of their power for the sake of *supporting* the Marksman. And Mage Supports don't do this at the moment. Not to mention they're oppressive in lane, and a large amount of them refuse to buy Sightstone (which is a player mentality issue, not a balance one). Also, it seems like Mages who Support only do so because they're no longer strong in other lanes, which is a shame.
I simply don't think mage supports are more oppressive than Soraka or Blitzcrank. Look at it this way: If you screw up against blitz, you get grabbed and nuked from 100 to 0 before you land AND you lost your positioning, meaning you can't really run. If you screw up against support mage, you get nuked from 100 to 0, but you can still flash/heal mid-combo and you don't get killed. Of course, support mages are strong, no denying that, but they aren't that bad to play against if you know how to exploit their weaknesses. Also, yes, it's shame Zyra/Brand/Malz were forced to go support, and i believe that was caused by heavy mobility creep in both JG and mid lane. However, there's one long-time support mage who has nearly 50/50 games played as supp and mid, and has very decent w/r in both lanes-{{champion:161}}
Illâoi (EUW)
: I'm happy for you. The only three problems I currently have with the Support role is Mage Supports, the Redemption+Locket requirement, and that four of our item slots are reserved (but that's part of the Redemption+Locket point, so fix one and you'll fix the other). These are just minor annoyances for me, at least. If they fixed them the Support role would be awesome, but it's not that they have to fix them right away. So yeah, it's like you said: Good job rito!
What's problematic about Mage supports? Really, every time people bring this up they can never back it with reasonable arguments.
: Because you're never going to get last hits with Nami's weak autos. This isn't like Thresh who has his E for an extra 80/110/140/170/200% damage base on his AD and soul count. All it would do is make you waste mana trying to use her E for extra damage to get a last hit. All of this would also require your ADC to be up for you trying to do this and a lot of them don't even like when Thresh players do it. If you want to be durable then it's better to go with a tank rune page. I've used one armor reds/yellows/quints and mr blues and it makes me deceptively tanky. But taking Targon's makes you waste mana to try to get last hits, time that can be spent watching the map and harassing, gold that you aren't getting because you can't last hit with Nami very well, let alone when you're competing with someone else for the last hit, mana regen, ap. You lose a lot of good stats for Nami for an inefficient purchase that you won't be getting any gold from come late game since no one will let you attempt to last hit then.
Why would you ever have problems with last-hitting as Nami, or any other ranged support? You ping the minion and just kill it with auto. What's hard about that? Of course your adc has to use his brain (which is quite rare), but it certainly does work in premades or with intelligent teammates. Pros of Targon/its upgrades are: It provides passive healing to YOU and YOUR TEAMMATE. This is equal to 1 healing potion every 2 waves, and can be stacked if you need more. This can offset lack of mana regeneration, as you don't have to use your ability to heal. Bonus HP helps YOU against enemy burst, shield on FOTM also prevents burst on you or your ally. It's certainly not something you'd want in every game/matchup, however it's really potent in right situation. Im a long-time Vel'koz main, and i've seen this used by enemy Nami. Thanks to this, i was never able to kill her or ADC in one rotation, as shield/hp/healing provided by this item was much better at denying my nukes than any other item would. She would later build Locket, and i was pretty much screwed. After that match i tried it myself, and despite my skepticism it worked pretty well.
: Some of the things Vel'Koz says
"Bones are surprisingly inflexible" "Are no organs safely removable?" "Their skins appear non-transferable." "Hm, this is a fragile species." "Creature appears to seek its maternal unit." "Have they ceased to evolve?" "When bisected, neither half grows back." "Odd creatures of blood and flesh." If you add all these together, you can get pretty rough picture of native void creatures: -they don't have parents, or at least not father/mother. It's more likely they multiply by division like cells -this is further supported by fact they can regrow when split in half -these beings are capable of growing organic carapace which works as exoskeleton and "holds them in shape". It's very likely they can grow it consciously (At least Kha can). It appears they can grow to practically unlimited size (Cho). For example, Kha's blades seem to be made of his internal matter, so it seems he doens't damage/cut using physical strength, it's more likely he's using something like Vel's plasma beams (think of lightsabers) -they need sustenance, and they can get it by either devouring matter (Kog, Cho, Kha, Rek) or absorbing energy (Vel) -they are very individualistic and often refuse to work with other void-born, however they seem to follow some kind of leadership -there is some great void creature, possibly leader or ancient/primal voidborn that seems to spawn voidlings/command invasions
: > [{quoted}](name=Verdade,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEVHa6qf,comment-id=001300000000,timestamp=2017-03-19T18:16:50.826+0000) > > There's literally no difference between grass with potential Blitz in there and with visible blitz. Blatantly false.
Would you be so kind and explain your post? Or is that just "i know better" attitude?
: 1) I need to find this server everyone's playing on where Lux is a good support. 2) Brand/Zyra are not your standard supports, and even they can stand to get {{item:2301}} and boots before finishing Rylai's/Liandry's. 3) I need to find this server everyone's playing on where Sunfire Cape is a good item for a support to buy over Redemption or Locket. If you're playing in Silver and the enemy isn't going to punish you for this bad decision making, then I guess you can go for it by all means, but don't make it a habit. It doesn't last.
You're just meta sheep. No sense in responding, you have your truth and you will stick to it. Beee
: After your tier 2 support item is one thing, but honestly, after that point, I'd be looking to make it your next buy. Supports really don't offer much to build in the first place, so why bother putting off vision?
Actually there are very strong items you can get early on supports. For example Liandry on Brand/Vel/Zyra Rylai on Brand/Zyra Sunfire on Naut/Leona Luden's on Lux etc.
boo910 (NA)
: quick question generally when I play lux support I go spell thiefs edge, sightstone, then double dorans rings for the mana regen. should I finish frostfang, then sightstone, or should I stick with my original build?
You HAVE TO get T2 gold generation before anything else. After that its your preference, i'd suggest frostfang->boots->1 full item->sightstone
: I just won a game today two games ago because the enemy support built like a moron, not building vision for 31 minutes. Enemy Teemo absolutely ass-blasted our Graves to the point where he couldn't even think straight. Enemy team was dividing our man-power all over the place so we couldn't run them over with our superior team fight. Only issue is that they were relying on split pushing strats without vision, so we got shut downs on Teemo which allowed us to net the gold we needed to hold against their splitting, which doubled in potency when I finished Banner to lure the enemy Teemo away from team fights. You really don't need to be delaying vision. Support spikes aren't big enough to warrant it.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEVHa6qf,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-19T19:23:29.122+0000) > > I just won a game today two games ago because the enemy support built like a moron, not building vision for 31 minutes. > > Enemy Teemo absolutely ass-blasted our Graves to the point where he couldn't even think straight. Enemy team was dividing our man-power all over the place so we couldn't run them over with our superior team fight. Only issue is that they were relying on split pushing strats without vision, so we got shut downs on Teemo which allowed us to net the gold we needed to hold against their splitting, which doubled in potency when I finished Banner to lure the enemy Teemo away from team fights. > > You really don't need to be delaying vision. Support spikes aren't big enough to warrant it. Anecdotal evidence, also Teemo isn't played because his late is literal shit. Additionally, no-one ever said sightstone is bad or anything, just that it's bullshit to rush it. You can't ward other lanes/jungle in early game anyways.
: Might be a case of different ELOs, but I often have to rush SS to be able to keep not just river bush warded, but one or both of the lane bushes at times. Down here there's a lot of poke "supports" {{champion:63}} and CC bots {{champion:53}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:111}} constantly dipping into bushes to give less warning for when they fire off abilities. Many times rushing SS ASAP has allowed me to save my ADC from getting hit and killed by bush wankers.
"bush wankers" aren't countered by wards. There's literally no difference between grass with potential Blitz in there and with visible blitz. You should play the same in both situations. The only difference is when your jungler comes over and you see that blitz overextended.
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Verdade

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