: very very cool! my favorite improvements are to the empowered abilities. also, the line that the Q leaves now (like in god king darius' Q) is fucking SICK. one small thing: it doesn't show the empowered W in the video i dont think. if i missed it, my mistake. very impressive, as always!! the new E is the coolest.
> [{quoted}](name=The Goodest Boy,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qIvkQl9a,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-05T22:33:19.494+0000) > > very very cool! my favorite improvements are to the empowered abilities. also, the line that the Q leaves now (like in god king darius' Q) is fucking SICK. > > one small thing: it doesn't show the empowered W in the video i dont think. if i missed it, my mistake. > > very impressive, as always!! the new E is the coolest. It does show emp W, during the ultimate. Seems like the exact same animation as before, so not much to show there I guess.
: Would you want to play against a Lux who can cast Q,Ex2 and R in less than a second? The animation is there for a reason.For clarity so opponents know what is happening or restrict you from casting everything at once. Imagine Fiora moving and using W at the same.Now,it firsts casts Q and then W. If you feel like he's clunky making the animation faster is a far healthier approach than him being able to cast 2 abilities at the same time.
Then what about riven? She has quite a few ways to doublecast her abilities. In any case this is just about the Q and I see your point. But that is not the only thing I addressed.
: Because that's what animation is for?It meant to give opponents time to react or evade inomming assaults. Besides the above,they're meant to remove 0.5 one-shoots.
How exactly does my inability to heal myself with W while also using Q to deal damage, prevent 0,5 second oneshots? I'm not talking about the animation of the Q, I'm talking about the complete lockup i have while using it. Also, why shouldn't I issue commands for a whole 2 seconds before going into camo? 2 seconds in which the Indicator has already appeared, but i don't even get the critical strike, because i'm not camouflaged yet :O None of these lockups prevent 0.5s oneshots but instead just add clunkiness to the champion's feel.
: because perma slow is bs
Azir with rylai's exists, Ashe exists too, also Lissandra and Sejuani as well! Why not give permaslow to a melee tank for once. Feel way more rewarding to play as and not so toxic to play against, unlike ashe...
: I'm on mobile (out of office this week), so please don't take the brevity/choppiness/typos of this response as me trying to overly simplify or gloss over any of the issues here. As some of you may already know, I did the gameplay design on Rengar's assassin update, so this is indeed an important issue to me. I don't respond to many Rengar threads (because many seem to be trying to say the same things and it tends to feel like a dead horse is being beaten), but I do try and read all of them here and on places like rengarmains regardless. That said, the effort put in here is, at the very least, admirable and collaborative, so it seems like a decent place to speak up. Rengar is far from perfect in his current state. I'll be the first to admit that. I do remember feeling more nervous (than other updates I've been a part of) than usual prior to his release, because it felt like we took some pretty drastic steps to try to accomplish difficult gameplay goals. Some of these worked out well. Others did not. Outside any individual item, to me, the single biggest shortcoming of the update is that he feels too different too play to really feel like the same champion, which I suppose tends to feel quite bad as some kind of confirmation of my pre-release nerves. The experience has been valuable to me as we hone in on the ingredients of a great update and the risks we may feel comfortable taking, but that should be of little consolation to players that may be feeling betrayed by this update (or any other, really). I've read many ideas for what we could do or ought to have done for Rengar, and still, I'm not sure what would be best. It is easy to know what doesn't work. It can be difficult to know what will. In the spirit of thus thread, below will be my thoughts on Rengar's kit. Keep in mind that this isn't a commitment to any type of incoming change. P I do think the changes to Ferocity generation were a great improvement to Rengar's gameplay, and I believe that this bonetooth is an improvement over the previous one, even if its progression and rewards are not as good as they could be. I'm unsure about the leap elements of the passive that get don't complaints, as I tried to set the range/speed/frequency as high as I could without being unfair to opponents, and I think that some of the complaints about these things mostly come from no longer being able to do some of the same exact jumping behaviors. I agree thus feels bad if you've learned all of them, but I still think the changes made here were generally acceptable. Q If I were to do it again, I would take more of an approach of "keep Q the same at all costs." The spell is mostly good in isolation mechanically (could be a decent spell on a different kit), but just feels bland, rushed, and uninspired here, primarily if you were attached to the previous Q. This said, reverting to the previous Q would result in the kit being back in a state where all of its damage could be applied instantly, and we were trying to move away from that for his update (which, at a goals level, I still do think is correct). W I don't think this spell is perfect, but I stand by it being mechanically better than the previous version. Whether that's true or not, honestly neither version is amazing. It's possible this should have been a new spell entirely, or that it should have part of a more extensive effort to make all of Rengar's instant cast spells not just stackable in the same instant. There is something to be said for the familiarity and simplicity of the spell, I suppose. E Bola is mostly fine. I was shocked by how many players complained that they couldn't instant cast it during leap, but I do think it having a cast time at all times was the right call. R After the Ferocity changes, I think the gains made to R's play for opponents was a definitive step in the right direction for Rengar's kit. I think there some merit to the spell having TOO much counterplay for opponents in the approach and not enough once he's there, but the spell seems far, far better for the game than the previous version, and with some tweaks, could be really great. I also know people tend to complain about the "free" crit on it, but I think rewarding jumping to the right target is appropriate, and damage seems appropriate as well. Perhaps it's the word crit? Maybe it should just be some kind of bonus damage. I'm not entirely sure, but that seems tunable. Pattern I'm not really concerned about whether people think Rengar is an assassin, diver, bruiser, fighter, skirmisher, or whatever. There seems to be enough division there that satisfying a singe singular majority doesn't seem possible. Closing Despite tending to think we made mostly good calls and took mostly good risks with Rengar's update, I think it's pretty clear that the changes to Q primarily tend to overshadow these. In my opinion, Rengar would have been best served by keeping the mechanics of pre-rework Q at all costs, though the way to accomplish that and still hit game health and counterplay goals we aimed for are still unclear, and are unlikely as simple as some passionate players may make it out to be. I'm thankful that League is a constantly changing game where we may get to circle back and revisit changes like these in the future. Thanks for taking the time and effort to put this post together. I know that sometimes it may feel like we aren't listening or don't care when something like this posted and maybe there's no response from a Rioter, but I do think it's rare that we're just turning a blind eye to something players care about. I apologize that it sometimes feels otherwise, and that we (I personally, on this case) don't always make the right calls, but I am thankful for feedback like this that keeps us in touch with player sentiment and helps us to improve moving forward.
What I, and i think many others want, is some time window that he might get some treatment. Now, I know it's difficult to even consider such a thing, but I don't want anything too specific, just something like "Yes, we will put Rengar on update schedule again, expect an update sometime in early 2018". Give us something to grasp on! As for his Q, what if it was a 2 part auto reset, similar to Vi's E? Just something I came up with a few minutes ago.
: **Change of playstyle and why it fails to capture his fantasy** Follow me on this. Rengar, old Rengar, was all about one thing. Picks. It would be all you were useful for as assassin Rengar. Optimally speaking. Not just one pick, but all of them. I want to pick people off by ambushing, stalking and preying on them. He had everything going for himself to make sure that you died and fulfilling these three. However, I would even dare to say that it was to easy for him once you had your basics down that you could get a kill every time you used your ult, assuming similar skill levels at play. The basics in question; 1. 5 Ferocity is best ferocity. Always have that before looking for a pick. 2. You are useless when your ult is down, stack that CDR. 3. Pick out the most vulnerable member on the enemy team to start the snowballing. 4. Learning your combos. It being nerfed was one of the best things to happen for League. My problem comes in with how it was nerfed. Because with the old ult, you had that going for you very well. Picks. With how Rengar was apart of the assassin update, there are two simple reasons why I don’t like the update and why it killed my entire enjoyment of playing Rengar, from having mained him since season 3 and had written a guide about him in a size of a novel. For being your ONLY hunting tool on a champion that is meant to capture the Trophy Hunter’s fantasy, it has a lot of counter productive interactions with the intended playstyle when you want to make picks. There is only really one hunting tool for you to ever use and it just isn’t as satisfying as it once was. Which pulls me into another topic. **Bushes or ult. Remove one and Rengar is useless.** With the rework, Rengar got a few changes. 1. Leaps have a consistent 725 range. 2. Your ult has the same cooldown at all levels. 3. You gain 1 ferocity when leaping at 0 ferocity. 4. Ferocity decaying when out of combat. (Straight to 0) Rengar is riddled with the problems of his old kit, an overreliance on ult to be useful. And that CAN be fine. A lot of champions have that “Problem” aswell. (Sejuani and Amumu coming to mind.) The problem is that how you’re very cooldown based on your picks with it being the only reliable one you got. And if you can’t reliably assassinate, you can’t do your job. Thats binary gameplay, ones and zeros. Where you only have ONE job and only have two outcomes. **"If the ult was so easy as you put it, what made a good Rengar good?"** Let me put it this way; Ask any Rengar main worth their salt and they will have 3 things to say. Nightblu3 is a shitty Rengar main. Oneshot montages are fucking boring. Toplane Rengar mains are the hardcore mains. And so you come to my own opinion, what seperates the good Rengar mains from the decent ones? How you manage to be useful even with the lack of your ult. Those were the best Rengar mains. Nightblu3 was top percentage reliant on his ult to be useful, making him a bad Rengar main in my eyes. Every oneshot montage starts always in their ultimate. Toplane Rengar mains are forced to interact with people during a time when they don’t have their ultimate yet, when they can be the most vulnerable. (That doesn’t excuse the lvl 2 cheeses and stuff like that though.) --- In the end, it all loops back around to the ultimate. The changes didn’t “Remove” the playstyle, but I would say that it tries really damn hard to stop you from using that playstyle on him. There are definitely a lot of other problems I have with the rework but those problems I can live with for the fact that what should matter with any kind of art or enjoyment should be how fun it is as a whole, or in simpler terms; Does the pros outweigh the cons? Possible solutions; Replace the ult with other methods for hunting. Allow Rengar the playstyle of the old and cut the stealth or vision instead. The ult has to either go and replaced with other hunting tools to allow different pick methods which Rengar will have to work harder for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting#Methods for a nice list to start from and get inspired from. Or you change the ultimate yet again to allow such playstyles that the old one reveled in. Personally speaking though, I would just prefer if Rengar was built from the ground and up with an entirely different kit with the playstyle of the old. Picks. Many different ways to gain a pick. For a great analogy; Imagine the torture scene in GTA 5. Imagine old Rengar only having a hammer to work with. What I would love to see would be to have more tools than just the hammer. I would like a saw. Nails. A dildo. And so forth. Let your creativity run free with how you could combine them to get the desired result.
I think, if he didn't have stealth at all, we wouldn't have any problems with him at all. Let him have the same ult as before but without stealth and longer duration. Now you can see him coming and react to him but if you ever let him get to you, poof! you're gone! That, of course, assumes he has his old oneshot kit. What're your thoughts on this? He gets his hammer, his nails, his dildo, but loses stealth.
: I want to pick up on this in particular, because a lot of players at large tend to associate the old Rengar with one-shots, and assume his playerbase wants those back. To clarify, if Rengar were taken to a state where he was very fluid and had little to no animation locks, yet could no longer one-shot his targets, all else held equal, would you consider it preferable to his current state?
: [MEGATHREAD] Let's Discuss: Rengar
Hmm let me think... What I don't like about the cuurent state of Rengar is the new Savagery and the constant lockups! I am prohibited from using abilities in all kinds of ways and that is frustrating to say the least. Why can't I use W while using Q? Why can't I use more than one ability during leap?? Why does my ult get canceled if I use an ability before I enter camo?? Rengar's gameplay fantasy should be something akin to a bursty skirmisher/diver with emphasis on the burst. Give me the proper tools to hunt while also letting the enemy know that I'm hunting them, without giving away crucial information such as my location. Also, make me actually WANT to stack trophies, not just stuff more meat in my meat can. Basic gameplay changes I would suggest concern his Q: Savagery. It's a partial revert of the ability, except now it's a point and click spell, similar to talon's Q that can be flashed just like Jayce's Hammer form Q or Jarvan's Ultimate. In addition, change the current W into something I can make use of in order to assassinate someone and not completely waste it. Something like a shield that scales with AD perhaps and it's empowered version enhance the shield and also give him a burst of movespeed.
: I do think that they need to have some compromise in between. An on hit modifier on an assassin has proven problematic on Rengar because of his kit (leap on enemy and Q them twice/three times). Personal belief here, I think it should still be a spell, but apply on hits and can crit, similar to Yasuo's Q but it doesn't scale on attack speed. It would at least be easier to balance.
My concept is to make it like talon's Q, a targetable ability, but at auto range.
: > [{quoted}](name=hitted,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sER7BVBr,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-06-12T11:11:41.423+0000) > > I believe you should have chosen different words for that point. The results were not mixed, the player's reactions to the reworks were. Well since a big part of the motivation behind her rework was the fact so many people hated playing against her, I'd say mixed reactions=mixed results(unless these reactions changed with time, which they didn't, people are happy to see le blanc less) >Leblanc saw extremely less play and people just forgot about her and Rengar started off way overtuned and then was gutted to the ground only to meet the same fate. First of all I completely disagree that rengar or le blanc were "gutted", both are pretty damn strong in the right hands, but nevermind that for a second(no seriously I barely play anymore so this is highly subjective due to very small sample size). Let's say that they were gutted, fact of the matter is: if you asked people prior to their reworks "how would you feel if the le blanc/rengar reworks gutted them?" about 80% of experienced players would've answered it with "GOOD.", they were(Frankly undecided about now, but I don't see them and that is a solution in its own right) horrible to play against, so making them healthier is an improvement, seeing them less: also an improvement. >They both feel healthy to play against only because of how weak they are. They still don't feel healthy to play against, less cancerous? sure. healthy? Not there yet, not even close. >Sure that may seem as an "improvement" to most but that's only because they don't play these champions. And you need to remember that their opinion is important too, it's not just how fun a champion is to play which is important, it's also what's it like to play against it, and for rengar and le blanc the answer was "horrible". >Also, let me ask you one thing. Do you main any champion? I'm quite curious because if you don't, you can't understand where any champion mains are coming from when they complain, even for the most basic things. If you do, how would you feel If your favourite champion completely lost their identity and their kit was replaced with "counterplay"? The problem is my mains already have plenty of counterplay. One thing that I will agree with you on is riot takes too long to admit to a problem, they could've given you a heads up that the way rengar/le blanc previously functioned was unsustainable and just didn't fit into the game, but chose not to.
> Mixed reactions=mixed results I feel that game balance and player's facing a champion and feel bad about are two different things. Take lee for example. Most people hate playing against him because in the right hands, he seems unfair. Does that mean he is unhealthy? Of course not. > About 80% of experienced players Where does this number come from? WHO exactly are "experienced players". IMO anything from D1 and below shouldn't be taken into such heavy consideration when facing complaints about playing against a certain champion. > For Rengar and LeBlanc the answer was horrible I never denied they needed a rework. > The problem is my mains already have plenty of counterplay You miss the point there. By "counterplay" I mean no counterplay at all. It was more of a sarcastic remark. (Please don't mention Rengar's ult, I understand it offers counterplay due to it being camo and the mark but the free crit, insane free damage, and an unmissable swimming Q kind of negate that).
: Another thing that must be noted is that they may be already looking at Rengo, but it doesn't mean that they started on Friday Morning and on Monday night there will be PBE update. It's easy to forget this when one cares about their champin, that's totally understandable, but maybe Rengo is just in queue for getting looked at, then be subject of discussion, then get changes on private BE, then gets adjusted, then gets changes on PBE, which means that even If they listen in the instant moment a thread is made, the changes may only take place few patches in the future. And while they might at least respond "Yes, we listen to you, no need to make 10th such thread, it'll get released five patches later", making such premature statements is very often hazard so they might resort to silence (which makes it look like they ignore the theads) rather than responding.
The thing is, Stattik said on reddit when they made that post on subclasses that Rengar is in a "stable-ish" spot right now so he is not on the radar. This may have changed since then though.
: Running through the enemy team unnoticed is a pretty cool assassin concept though. But yeah, for the most part, the old Rengars were very unhealthy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2LpTxW2OEo ^is a good example of that. New rengar kind of just tries to ram down his foe and doesn't really assassinate anymore unless fed. Right, let's get into the abilities then. His ult does need a change where he gains more than just see a single target and crit them. Maybe instead of just seeing every champion, Rengar casts his ult on a particular foe, and only gains the bonuses when hunting that target. This gives a more hunter feel since you picked the prey and plan to deliver, as well as a better warning for the enemy team who gain information on who to protect. Maybe also add in a more interesting indicator. Instead of just "in range get indicator" the indicator depends on how much distance is between them. For instance, a closed eye for very far away (2000+), semi open eye for closer (1000-2000 units away) and a fully opened, vicious eye for when Rengar is almost there (1000 or less units.) Next, his Q. I think we shouldn't make his Q an auto attack enhancement again, but we can do something similar. Remember Yasuo, the champion everyone hated? His Q technically is an auto attack, but at the same time it isn't, so we can use that for reference. Rengar can target a small area and stab his dagger into it, dealing physical damage to the targets in the area (acting as a basic attack to the target closest to rengar). A short delay for the opponents to react to. Next, his W. I disagree with a shield, it promotes bruiser builds still because a bruiser can still build AD and has resistances to make it more effective. I would think a damage % reduction would work well (based purely off his bonus AD. Early on it's weak, later on it's strong.) A shield based on enemies hit probably would be easier to balance though.
The Q, could be like Talon's Q. Not an auto reset/enhancer but targetable ability at close range.
: > [{quoted}](name=hitted,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sER7BVBr,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-12T07:34:34.341+0000) > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tudnEmGv-there-was-a-red-post-a-while-back > > Said person made a point that goes like this: > * Often stonewall community feedback, leading to considerable frustration when nothing happens despite loud, continued, unanimous community feedback asking for a change. > > This particular point I would like to focus on, because while Riot have improved in that aspect since then, there are times when I feel like they haven't. > > Take LeBlanc for example, after the assassin update. LeBlanc's was a rework that apparently failed and the community, whether that is the champion's playerbase or not, pointed out the problems with the rework and they were made clear and apparent to Riot. Thus, they announced that they are looking into her once again. That's not true. Le blanc's rework failed le blanc players sure, but everyone else was happy to see her less, it didn't even matter why, she was so horrible to play against before that this was actually an improvement to most players once the nerfs hit. > So why is this not the case with Rengar? I understand that Rengar needed a Rework both Rengarmains and the community have been crying for a change since day one! The not rengar player part of the community wasn't asking for a revert, it was asking for nerfs, and for the moronic cc immunity to go away. >We do not ask for a full revert, only that Riot addresses the issues that have arisen with the rework. The way Riot has handled the whole thing just outright disturbs me because this is not what I thought this company was all about! Listening to the playerbase has ALWAYS been their strong point, but when it comes to Rengar, all they have been doing is ignoring the community's cries and contradicting themselves! You need to understand that the boards do not represent the community as a whole, simply because of the amount of circlejerks going on here, the majority of players are happy to see rengar less, same as le blanc, and they don't really care why. Both le blanc's and rengar's reworks aren't a complete failure like you try to make it out to be, they have mixed results, the ones who enjoyed them before don't like them, and pretty much everyone else sees them as an improvement.
I believe you should have chosen different words for that point. The results were not mixed, the player's reactions to the reworks were. Leblanc saw extremely less play and people just forgot about her and Rengar started off way overtuned and then was gutted to the ground only to meet the same fate. They both feel healthy to play against only because of how weak they are. Sure that may seem as an "improvement" to most but that's only because they don't play these champions. Also, let me ask you one thing. Do you main any champion? I'm quite curious because if you don't, you can't understand where any champion mains are coming from when they complain, even for the most basic things. If you do, how would you feel If your favourite champion completely lost their identity and their kit was replaced with "counterplay"?
Raznald (NA)
: Hey this is just an idea what about the thought of old fero system with new ult but allowing to empower the ult to gain the bonus effect of scouting all the enemys this would remove the prepping 5 fero for aQ nuke or E snare idk im really tired ive been working for 10 hours and still have 2 to go this just came to me Edit: just noticed this could kind of fit his hunter theme in a way of how he would prepare for the comming hunt by using his fero as a tool for his ult Edit2: and this could also prevent a feels bad man feeling for losing all fero stacks upon entering his ult if a mechanic like that was added i think
This is actually really cool! But make it slightly different. Don't give him the option to empower it but empower the ult only IF he has max ferocity!! Think of it like this: If you have less than max ferocity then the ult just stealths you, reveals the closest enemy and drops whatever stacks you have to 0. If you have max ferocity, then give it some extra utility like the suggestion you made!
: > [{quoted}](name=hitted,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNhkKVnO,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2017-06-12T06:43:56.486+0000) > Some champions are hated by the rest of the community (E.g. Yasuo, Riven, Fiora, Rengar, gp), but don't you think it's unfair to destroy said champions because "they are hated by most"? No. If he's so frustrating, hated or unfun to play against that he can't make it through a single ban phase he should be changed. Clearly he is pissing off 90-some % of the players in the game and that is a VERY bad thing. No game should try to preserve something that is ruining the game for almost everyone that doesn't play it. It's bad design. Rework the jerk so he's not the most obnoxious thing in the game and people will stop banning him. Then his fans can play him again without ruining the game for everyone else. And after Yasuo... we need to rally and permaban THIS little fucker next. {{champion:105}}
Let's just agree on the fact that Riot makes mistakes on some champions and that they should admit those mistakes and fix them.
: Listening and bending over to every demand the community makes are two separate things. You also can't take one common variable from something (a rework being bad) and then apply what's happening with one to the other. You're ignoring every other variable and detail.
Hey, don't get me wrong, all I'm asking here is for them to take another look into Rengo.
: > Listening to the playerbase has ALWAYS been their strong point They stopped doing it after the terrible skarner rework they did just by listening to the player base. And that's great that they stopped. Most people dont know what they really want, they have no clues about game design or balance and even when they know what they want, they dont know how to express their needs.
While that is true, I must say in rebuttal that most can understand when a champion is bad, or if a rework fail. Sure it's not easy to propose meaningful changes, but amidst all the trash proposals there are some very amazing suggestions.
: Why do you think this? Because the community basically gave Riot the green light to do so. When {{champion:43}} was reworked, the first of many, no one except her small playerbase vocally demanded for revert/changes because of how rushed/bad it was. But the rest of the community didn't speak up. Which gave Riot permission that they could do whatever they liked for reworks. Because obviously players didn't care enough. As Riot continues to rework your favorite champions, there is not going to be much reasoning they'll listen to. Because we, as a community, already gave up our voices regarding that aspect a long time ago.
I only recently realized how bad it was for karma players... It feels this was the first of many ;/
Rioter Comments
: The real question is... does anyone WANT Yasuo back? I mean... other than Yas mains, but I'm pretty sure they're not real people.
Every champion has a player base. Some champions are hated by the rest of the community (E.g. Yasuo, Riven, Fiora, Rengar, gp), but don't you think it's unfair to destroy said champions because "they are hated by most"? The thing with such champions is most probably their high skill cap and carry potential, which enables them to appear to solo carry games. Except maybe Fiora. IMO she is way too overloaded.
: To all the players who are supporting the '' revert rengar '' thing
I cannot agree more. Most people do not realize he NEEDED the rework only see the surface of things. However, this current version is a complete and total failure and it is quite certain that there are other ways to address his issues.
: Please stop trying to put old Rengar on a pedestal. He needed a rework for a reason. While his assassin rework didn't work out so well that doesn't justify trying to bring back his old kit which was feast or famine. Not too mention not much counterplay except for a pink ward or the exclamation mark (Which didn't do much). Riot had the right target in mind but they missed the mark. Let them aim again instead of taking away their shot. They have been doing very well recently with the small reworks (Malz, Kindred and Rek'sai). Also this really doesn't mean much saying that the Lol boards want old Rengar cause the boards don't know shit. They pushed for many changes in the game, some were good, but many were bad. They circle jerk causing unpopular opinion to get pushed aside despite the circle jerk being about something stupid (Excuse my use of the term circle jerk). They raise certain people on pedestals, such as Malicious Metal, which makes it so even if they post something stupid they still can make front page. And because of this people who post about the similar issues and some solutions to those issues get shot down. Right now Rengar feels like a popular topic, not a "Circle Jerk" yet but it is getting there.
Let's just agree though, that current Rengar is a mess. Yes, he needed a rework, that much is certain, but there were other ways to go about addressing his issues than this abomination we have now.
: A cloth armor? That's like saying Talon was countered by building a cloth armor.' Only reason talon was bad because of a abysmal laning where he fell behind in 95% of the games by default. He was hella strong when he didn't though, something that remains after the rework as i understand. Rengar is the same, get one or two kills early and he´ll snowball extremely hard because every single ulti is almost a guaranteed kill. And while i agree that rengar didn't have a good winrate i am also quite sure he had a fairly high playrate instead. For a champ that does have a skill floor it makes sense that newer players would drag him down quite a lot since he just like Zed are one of the "cool champs" that young guys like. And Zed is currently among the most banend if i recall. However Rengar lost most of his playerbase except dedicated mains after his rework made him clunky, until it was discovered that he was OP. Then nerfed repeatedly, and here we are. Rengar with a 50% winrate in plati and above according to OP.gg It actually looks good, 50% is pretty much perfect.
The reason he has 50% WR in plat and above is simply because only dedicated mains play him at that elo... Sure 50% looks good but you have to understand the circumstances that produce such a number. And trust me, no one wants to play a champion whose main damage spell at level 1 deals 50 damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=jaycer97,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q3scZE41,comment-id=004800000000,timestamp=2017-06-11T14:28:54.834+0000) > > How was the old bonetooth necklace system unhealthy? You may camp one person to get the stacks, but all they offered was utility. There was an imbalance of what was being traded on both sides of the old Passive. There's a reason killing the same champion over and over again reduces their value -- to prevent players from snowballing off a target that's too weak to defend themselves. There should be no difference in Rengar's Trophy mechanic. You kill someone, you get the maximum value from them, and you move onto the next target. It doesn't matter if all you're getting is Utility, it's still something that makes you Stronger through minimum effort. >Now if you get all the stacks quickly, you end up having 200+ ad at 10 minute mark, and how is that healthy? The only time I've seen Rengar's get all 5 stacks by the 10 minute mark is if they were smurfing 2 tiers below their rank. This simply does not happen in real games. >Furthermore having only 5 stacks is incredibly boring. With old rengar you truly felt like a hunter, having 20 max stacks available. How having extra movement speed or leap range is incredibly unhealthy? Even if you camped someone, you still would have to kill one single person 20 times, to get max stacks. And to kill someone 20 times, they have to intentionally feed you. You don't even know how the old passive worked! You'd get 2 stacks per kill and 1 stack per assist. In most cases Rengar would have his 12 stacks he needed for long Ults before the mid game and would have all 20 by the end of the first Team Fight. It was ridiculous. I'm all for changing the Rewards behind the Bonetooth passive to give Rengar a bit more flavor, but 1 trophy per enemy needs to stay. > > With old ferocity system, you had to master your ferocity management, now you just jump, spam all your abilities, with their hour long cast times, and get 4th stack by the time you got cc'ed, which you have to use to escape. Yes. Stack abilities on a camp and mozy into a fight with full ferocity. Very masterful -- so hard. I could see this taking Hours -- No -- DAYS of practice to get right.
Woaah, hold it there, old passive NEVER, even on release, gave 2 stacks per kill. It was always one stack per kill and one stack per assist. Not that I disagree with you though. The passive I think the way it is now s a step in the right direction. Also, ferocity management is not as easy as it may seem. The old system made Rengar quite vulnerable in certain scenarios when he wasn't "ready". Making yourself always have 3 or more ferocity was when Rengar could reliably engage in a fight because he could only get three stacks with his abilities IF he hit them! It's not as simple as you say "just stack on a camp before fight" because the game doesn't consist solely of teamfights. A return to the old ferocity system however could only be viable if an R cast dropped all stacks to zero before stealthing.
: Thoughts on Rengar Revert
Where are you Riot? It's been almost a day and no response whatsoever! We want answers...
: btw so would rengar get vision of all enemies back on his ult or just still 1 enemy. What are your opinions on that? :)
Don't believe it matters. I mean, TF gives true sight to eveyrone globally, why can't Rengar have trues sight of everyone in range?
hotarse (NA)
: Just revert ALL the reworks and make him like he was on release, but tune the numbers a bit to make him a little less bursty and to have better sustain to tank through long team fights.
That is a bad idea... Coming from someone who mained since the moment he was released.
Tranoze (NA)
: If you revert the Q, rengar will die, yes die so much in the jungle. Raptors + krugs require you to deal more AOE damage, which rengar cant do it with his W. Because it require him to farm a lot early game, this will hurt him alot.
Not necessarily. Depends on cooldown, base damage of the ability and how well a player can kite the camps. Also, some camps can be skipped in favor of early ganks (skip raptors for example and go straight to wolves in order to gank top after blue). In addition, he wil get extra lifesteal from machete, therefor increasing his early jungle sustain. The only real impact will be on his clear speen, not his clear health,
Outclαss (EUNE)
: Just revert this abomination already. Even though he is stronger than pre rework rengar, being able to kill their adc and still survive, i dislike the clunkiness of his kit. Also, they lowered rengar's skill floor so much that you can't diferentiate the good players from the bad ones anymore. Before rework you had to be ahead, manage your ferocity and time your combo perfectly to kill an adc (q leap e w hydra mid air), now all you need to do is build bruiser and right click. If you don't believe me, look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLehtecT7kc Look at that fake laugh and sudden realisation that they fucked up this champion so hard. I'm waiting for some changes, you can't ignore us forever.
Wasn't there a post in the subreddit about this? Cause I made the exact point of that fake laugh :D Glad you posted it here mate. This needs to be seen.
: As a non rengar player, i thumbed this post up because i understand where you guys come from. And fuk it the kitten was awesome wasnt he?
Sincerely, we thank you for the support! And yes, the kitten was effin' awesome!
: Thoughts on Rengar Revert
The point is, they don't need any new ideas. The community have offered tons of cool ideas and balancing work with and without numbers (ratios etc.). What need to be done is actual change. They need to understand they messed it up and give Rengar to more capable hands and change him for the better, both for the ones playing as Rengar and those playing against him. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}

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Level 126 (EUNE)
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