Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 14
Im really glad that you arent planning on reverting the game to ADCs being mandatory. A lot of space has been opened for other champion archetypes to go botlane. Carry mages, bruisers, even duo support (with Lulu)
: In bot lane? Maybe. Not overall. It has a good way to go to see variety/diversity as a whole in the LCK and LPL. **LCK Summer 2018 has seen 56 champs so far.** **LCK Spring 2018 has seen 85.** **LPL Summer: **58 **LPL Spring: **96 Currently sitting at 141. By nerfing the ADC in this manner, you are really indirectly removing a good portion of the eSports fan base. I wonder how the NFL and MLB would be if they removed the pitcher role, the quarterback, or goalies from the World Cup? I mean, it gets boring when a good goalie keeps stopping the other team from scoring. Let's just get rid of it. /kappa The game rarely takes any strategic planning now. It's just a clown fiesta, much like the decision to make MSI a volatile Round Robin. But I guess that's what Riot wants and the casters just eat it up because they get to spend more time **screaming** now. **Much like their Aatrox rework.** Let's make everything volatile so we can finally see our golden child, the NA region actually win Worlds for once right? I feel like the people who like this change are the ones that play Call of Duty just for Nuketown.
Lmao LCK and LPL Summer have 3 days since they started, wtf are you even comparing? And LCK and LPL Spring had this number of picks in multiple patches, not one Also the role is BOTLANE carry, not ADC. Your comparison of ADCs and NFL positions is laughable
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 11
Meddler in your previous QGT you stated that the mana changes were intended to be power neutral, with buffs to the early mana. 2 Questions 1) You really think that control mages dont need nerfs, considering how much they dominate pro play and high elo? 2) Why the early buffs are necessary?
Rioter Comments
: Waveclear work for 8.6 or later
Omg finally! Please go through with these changes (or whatever iterations) and dont be discouraged by the inevitable kneejerking of the Boards/reddit that follows every big change. Waveclear is a bane in high level play and it has been for years. Big scale changes like this are needed, if some outliers appear then just nerf them individually.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 7
Meddler can you explain me why you nerfed the ability of banner that almost every pro play play viewer loved (its ability to destroy turtling playstyles) instead of hitting it somewhere else? Like the stats it gives, its gold cost etc What was so bad about banner that you instantly changed it after 3 days? It seems absurd to me. When theres a big issue that it gets abused re-actively then you can take weeks or months to fix it.
: > why Riot never speaks about it? It's hard to talk with players about problems you don't have clear answers to. It sets odd expectations, especially when things don't go according to plan. I submitted some stuff to testing last night that increases the Health of caster minions to get a feel for that world. I don't have high hopes for that particular iteration (it probably actually closes off viable picks due to making waveclear thresholds more restrictive rather than opening them up), but we're testing it and we'll probably test some more extreme stuff as well.
I see. I hope that you will reach a viable and healthy solution for the matter. I personally consider it the biggest problem in LoL since a long time ago.
  Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=KonArist87,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W5EkXQ7G,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-11-10T15:37:11.004+0000) > > well meta's and game play have to change or else the game gets stale. after all it's only first 3 days so things may be toned down.. but until they add more ways of getting passive Magic resist or armor then it will be fast paced with how easy it is to kill your lanes.. So are you happy with the late game coming at the 10 minute mark? That is the point we are at now. The loading screen seems to last longer than some games.
Exaggeration to the point of total stupidity. Never change, Boards
: Hey there. I don't really want to use this as an opportunity to defend my record. (Spoiler: I think it's fine). However, I'd love a chance to talk about how we view League's long-term strategy, which may be a topic that not every player often thinks about. The traditional way to make a game was to package it in a box for 60 USD or whatever and put it on the shelf in a Gamestop, or going way back, an EB or something. You wanted players to love your game, but you also wanted them to finish your game, because you only made money on the box, and you needed them to not only value that box, but to want the next box, and the one after that. We sometimes talk about this consumer product strategy as "planned obsolescence." The first game I worked on that didn't follow that strategy was an MMO, where much of the revenue came from a subscription. The strategy was to keep players so engaged that they never got bored and risked unsubscribing. Turns out this is pretty hard to do. Players do eventually move on to other games, so to keep your revenue constant, you need to keep bringing in new players. This model tends to be even more extreme in microtransaction games, especially mobile ones (and especially low quality mobile ones) where players may quickly get tired of your nonsense and paywalls and running out of resources. The business model here is to constantly get new players (or rope current players into bringing in their friends) because if you ever run out of new players, you quickly run out of money. The reason we think League can be evergreen and last for many years is that it works really differently. The game is free to play and there is no subscription. Much of League's revenue comes from optional cosmetic content. This creates a situation where players don't often feel the need to formally quit - there is no unsub moment or anything. The icon is still sitting there on your computer when you want to go back to it. So compared to many games, our churn rate is really low. Players may take breaks, but many come back. This also means we are less dependent on new players. Our strategy is to keep current players engaged and happy. Historically we've made very little effort to attract new players. In terms of evergreen games, I often use examples like Magic, D&D or possibly Pokemon. Those are games that you can drift in and out of for years. They evolve.They release new products. But they are still recognizable over time and have been around for decades. Will they last forever? I don't know. But they last a lot longer than most games. That's what we aspire to do with League (and no, we're not there yet). Riot as a company invests heavily in esports, but on the League team it is not always forefront in our minds. Our balance philosophy for example focuses on players in the high Plat / low Diamond skill level. Balancing only for esports is a little short-sighted because you are tuning the game literally for a few dozen people, while probably making the game worse for tens of millions. When we do make changes specifically for esports, it tends to be right around Worlds and is also focused more on esports viewers than pro players. In other words, we don't make a ton of changes just for esports, and those we do make are often targeted on making a game that is fun to watch. The vast majority of our features (things like missions, champion mastery, matchmaking, Star Guardian Invasion) have almost no impact on esports at all. They are for the rest of us. As a company, esports does have benefits and that's why it's an important part of our company strategy. We don't spend much on traditional marketing, and in a way esports is part of our marketing. Pro games also provide a way for players to stay connected to League if they're taking a break from the game as I mentioned above. Esports can also be aspirational because it's inspiring to see players playing the exact same game as you but doing things you didn't know were possible. It's an opportunity for the community to come together. It's a celebration of League. Does Riot want additional games? Absolutely. We want to be a game company that stands the test of time, and we know we need a whole library of games to do that. But we aren't willing to shift so many resources away from League and towards new games that we hurt the one successful game that we do have. Remember, we don't need that planned obsolescence model that I mentioned above. More games will come in time, and we have time. I know that was long, but I hope it helps provide a little more perspective about how we think about product strategy.
If anything, i think that you arent focusing on Esports as hard as you should do. You keep talking about balance perception. The pro scene is a MAJOR contributor to that perception, propably the biggest. When people see the same 50-55 champions getting spammed, you think that they will perceive LoL as a balanced game even when there arent any similar problems in their games? Keep your watchers happy with action packed games and diversity, and you will see how the tide of perception will turn. Nobody cares if some platinum player thinks that the game is balanced. But MANY take at face value whatever they see in Esports scenes
: > [{quoted}](name=Ghostcrawler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OwBA1Kct,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-11-10T22:51:26.913+0000) > >Our strategy is to keep current players engaged and happy. You have millions that are UNHAPPY with this current crappy preseason patch. Why don't you fix it or better yet, revert it? That would make your current players "engaged and happy." Edit: Stop downvoting me. That's rude as hell.
"Millions" lol. Its just the same 100 people in Boards upvoting the same complaints over and over again
: when do they ever cater heavily to esports tho
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 7.22
What are your opinions on Harvest? I feel like it was fine in PBE (maybe deserved slight nerfs) but got gutted due to youtube clickbaits. Atm Electro is better to take in like 95% of occassions
Penns (EUW)
: I dont think Resolve is a viable option for laners like mages and assassins and Im not sure if it should be one ("take this rune in a losing lane as {{champion:38}} for example = almost unpunishable") Armor seems kind of low on mid laners imo (havent played much yet), Hp/level were most used seals because most matchups were AP champs. If you didnt have armor runes vs a Zed or Yasuo before preseason you kind of.. lost.
>I dont think Resolve is a viable option for laners like mages and assassins It most certainly is as a secondary path. Its very strong
: Well,goodbye League of Legends
: Touching base on Runes Balance for Pre-season
Please, please dont be discouraged by the knee-jerking in here about "TOO MUCH DAMAGE" and stuff. I greatly love this preseason, its easier to roam and make plays. It feels such a breath of fresh air after 3 dull seasons (imo). Please dont make everything hit like a wet noodle again As a side note, i think that you went too hard with the nerfs on Harvest. I feel that its weaker than Electro in most cases, even if you want to scale
Rioter Comments
: People like the game when people can live for more then 2 seconds in a fight, adding more and more dmg to the game is a bad idea.
People also like the game when they can make plays and not get cucked by unkillable tanks and insane heals
: What is a turret? You mean those loot chests you pop at 6 minutes? Last game was 4 dead towers under 10 minutes. Love it.
Yes i love it. Season 5 - season 7 LoL was garbage exactly because it was full with forgiving shit for bad players. This is what the game should look like. Fast, fun and punishing
: This patch has ghostcrawler written all over it. Enjoy. Same thing happened to WoW
>Enjoy. Thank you, i most certainly do.
: early defense gone. early damage taken away but supplemented with runes that are way more busted. the worst part is they make everything outscale defense from the begging of the game straight to the end.
Good. Most people want fast gameplay and burst, not dumb tanks or mages hugging towers and waveclearing for 30 minutes. THAT is toxic for the game
Raoul (EUW)
: I feel like the new rune system (like so many things in this game) heavily favours ADCs...
I dont think so. It certainly doesnt favour them more than the previous meta at least
: As someone who has been playing on the PBE you are in a world of pain. Dark Harvest is a keystone that shouldn't exist. Bruisers are even worse now. i.e there isn't a decent replacement for losing Fervor Tanks have really shitty Keystone options. Also the resolve tree is objectively weaker than the damage trees. Certain junglers are going to really suffer in skirmishes/ganks because lack of AS vs champions. I could think of more problems that I've already noticed but I think you get the point. Edit: Arcane Comet is not a suitable replacement for DFT I don't care what Riot says.
>Bruisers are even worse now. i.e there isn't a decent replacement for losing Fervor If you were picking Fervor to bruisers you were doing something horribly wrong
: Well i think they've deadlocked themselves. Their whole design over the past ~1.5-2 years now has been Assassins > Marksmen > Tanks > Assassins Yet this model cuts out substantial portions of the roster from ever being the meta, and forcing them only into supporting roles. If they were to shift the meta, with how things are currently designed, it'd be impossible for it to be anything other than an assassin or tank meta again.
>Their whole design over the past ~1.5-2 years now has been Assassins > Marksmen > Tanks > Assassins Assassins? They have been complete dumpster for around 2 years now, along with other anti-carries. I think that you mean "control mages" As a Rioter said, a major reason of current problems is that from the Burst > Sustained damage > Tanks > Burst equation, they remove the Burst component.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 3
A while ago you said that you consider changing the patch routine (a big patch every month or so, with 1-2 small patches inbetween). What you decided?
: Maybe her model, but her abilities don't look out of place at all.
Also her looking like a character from a Disney movie was exactly Riot's intent lol
Not xPeke (EUW)
: The way the game changed is good? That's funny considering that the average Summoner's Rift game across ALL regions and ALL ELO's is < 30 minutes at the moment. It goes from around 29 minutes in Bronze, reducing more and more until matches are around 24 minutes in Challenger. EDIT: 27 in Challenger, 25 for Ranked Flex. This is a huge change to the game as a whole. Games on Summoner's Rift used to last on average 35 minutes+. The old client itself used to advise players that games usually lasted between 35 and 40/45 (can't remember which exactly) minutes - a huge difference to now. This sort of game is not designed to be and shouldn't be a fast paced game. If we wanted flashy plays and fast games we would be playing Call of Duty. The game's identity has completely changed. Change for the sake of change is never good. Ask Runescape and even WoW how good all the unnecessary changes they introduced were. Even big and popular games can come crashing down if you exaggerate with shitty changes.
From where do you even get your stats
: yeah honestly the last time i remember REALLY having fun playing league was s4.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 1
Meddler i remember that you said 2-3 months that one of the preseasons goals is looking at waveclear. What happened to that?
: riot balance: some champ is doing too much damage to fight this others must do as much or even more damage! but now these are OP. ok, give EVERYTHING "tons of damage" btw have u seen nami with new runes? :D
The current meta is exactly due to burst mages/assassins/divers not doing as much damage as they should. You could oneshot people before and now you cant unless you crit someone with a marskman. Boards complaining about "damage creep" goes as back as the creation of this forum. Its posts like this that nullified the checks of ADCs and gave us this Ardent cancer meta. Made the entire game an arms race between ADCs and tanks.
Squey (NA)
: damage creep is up but it seems like more of a flat value. Thats why champions designed to burst either get ahead and destroy or are even and get out damage by everyone else. Thats because even sustained damage is more bursty now. And with the inclusion of shield and damage reduction items. Sustained damage is going to always out perform burst champions. Vlad never used to 1 combo people till full build and even then he had to be going with a very offensive build. But then item buffs and bad reworks have made him a burst mage on top of good sustained damage. Lux used to be love for her 100-0 potential. Now any mage with items can 100-0 a squishy if they get a full combo with similar items. ranged top laners used to poke you out of lane. Now they combo you out of lane as soon as u get back to it. junglers used to be weaker then lanes. They would just be helping the lane. This season especially junglers are usually just as strong or stronger then the lanes for most of the early game. It used to take assassins landing there combo to kill people. Now its not required. A zed ult e auto will do 800 damage by itself with just 1 item. akali and dianna only need 1 ult to kill . Tanks used to win trades by just being more durable and having mini sunfire. Now tanks have base damage almost as high as mages. Its alot higher then almost all bruiser and skirmisher ability base damage. It used to be tank would outscale your damage with there durability. So you had to punish them early. Now tanks have the stronger early game but get outscaled by the damage.
Burst of assassins and burst mages not only has gone down, but also there have been introduced a ton of abilities and items to counter it the past years. This is a fact. Sustain damage may have increased but its only because tank durability also increased. Its an arms race between tanks, control mages and ADCs, with every other class being in the dumpster
Rioter Comments
: I don't think it would be good for League's appeal to the broad playerbase if Riot were to do away with the current lane set-up in favor of a less rigid structure. Because of this set-up, it is possible for a non-hardcore dedicated gamer (read: a casual player) to hit the play button, join a game and roughly know what he/she needs to do at a given position. Just my 2 cents.
Yeah and the dedicated playerbase should suffer from lack of diversity because the "casual player" cant bother to make a choice. Great reasoning
: I just want wards everywhere. Junglers suck. I'd like not to deal with them if possible.
Im sure that you arent saying the same in games where you get crushed in lane lol
: Current issue is that defensive play is more rewarding than aggressive play. The only "initiation" type abilities/champions were seeing are ones that are great defensively but if used offensively they can run away if they decide the fight might not be in their favor. True "Hard" initiation needs to be FAR more powerful while these dual-purpose abilities need to be far weaker to make up for their flexible nature. ----- TLDR: Riot made the most defensive meta to date, Hyper Carries are the best thing to defend, so that's what we have.
>True "Hard" initiation needs to be FAR more powerful while these dual-purpose abilities need to be far weaker to make up for their flexible nature. Great point.
: Perfect initiation by Sej, with great followup from team, everyone throws all their shit. Kog's health fails to drop below 50%. woot
I remember when Riot was saying that shields are a fun and interactive mechanic. Now "Interact" with these huge ass shields which btw have close to 100% uptime.
Skorch (NA)
: "Kog should have been dead as soon as the Shockwave went off." Everyone: Entire teams die so fast. I miss longer teamfights. Riot: Here are several support items and ultimates to make it so that peel and defense are more available so that you dont get blown up in 2 seconds. Everyone: WHY ISNT KOG DYING RITO??
And this is exactly why catering to low elo players always leads to dead ends.
Voluug13 (NA)
: Nautilus's shield is big in theory but he doesnt get the gold (on supp or jg) to get enough HP items.
Nautilus is better in toplane than in supp or jungle. He was played there at Worlds
: Almost completely lost the love for the game this season.
This season is the final form of nerfing burst champions, individually or systemically, and buffing the defensive capabilities of sustained damage dealers. Through items, shields, heals and the list goes on. I mean Riot even admitted it, when from the equation Burst > Sustained damage > Tanks > Burst you remove the Burst this is what you get. An arms race between tanks and control mages/ADCs which leave every other class unplayable in high gold income positions (top/mid/jungle)
Tortunga (EUW)
: It ofc doesn't make defences completely irrelevant, but he has a point that it hurts the viability of tanks/juggernauts that (almost) exclusively rely on items for their defences, Tank-items aren't that amazingly cost efficient to start with, and losing 35/40% of the MR/Armour value, because the enemy bought an item, really stings. Just look at the tanks being played at worlds. All of them have extra defences in their kits, if they didn't they would just melt as fast as everything ells would. A Naut or Zac would roughly bring the same value as Sej/gragas do, but as they don't have any extra defences in their kit, they are just to squishy for this meta. While % penetration is ofc not the main reason (Hyper-carries/Ardent being broken is that), it amplifies it by making tank items even less value for their bucks. I don't think removing them is the solution though; you still need a way to kill tanks, but the commitment should be more then 'buy' this item. One idea I had myself is making Last Whisper not work with crits. Would mean you had to go for a non-crit build if you wanted to be a true tank killer, losing damage against non-tanks (On hit builds will be a problem, but meh it was just an idea)
Nautilus has a huge shield and Zac has his passive. They may not be defenses with your definition but they most certainly help their defensive capabilities. Also Nautilus was played at Worlds. The reason that Sej and Gragas are dominant is because they are overtuned and they have rather broken kits (highly mobiles tanks are cancer)
Antenora (EUW)
: Removing Last Whisper and Void Staff from the game would mean armor/magic resist numbers/stats and base stats on tanks and other champions would need to take a MASSIVE nerf.
I agree with you. Long term though it would be better to remove them and do said nerfs to tanks and off-tanks. That way they wont be literally immune to everyone except sustained damage dealers
Rioter Comments
: Man, when {{champion:1}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:29}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:67}} are better assassins than the actual assassins in the game.
Annie and Veigar are burst mages, they are supposed to be able to assassinate (and they are as shitty as the assassins right now) As for the rest yeah, the result is ridiculous
: > [{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bPE1A1gi,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-10-17T00:38:55.682+0000) > > My personal opinion on the matter is that the game that was built at the beginning with: > Burst &gt; Sustained &gt; Tank &gt; Burst was one that worked. > > It also has costs, namely people dying instantly with very little counterplay. > > When we changed unconditional burst to not be a viable strategy (think old LB, old Rengar), we also removed one of the checks for ADC&#x27;s. On the flip side, mages are now more sustained damage threats in themselves (since their power is translated) and can rival ADC&#x27;s in mid game as well. > > Ultimately, we could give sustained AP the best late game scaling (as champs that can miss), but it is not a trivial problem space and there are a lot of run-on problems from solves in this space. > > Needless to say, we certainly hear you and something we debate about on a regular basis and are not particularly happy with, but again it is a large and difficult project. So you 're going to leave it that state You practically removed the real counter to ADC by nerfing the **** out of all assassins-like champions. You gave ADC's a stronger early and mid game. And to top it of, you pretty much re-defined every class on how they can help ADC do their job better And your response is, "it is a large and difficult project" SO why not do immediately starting working on it. No one is asking for major rework. You can't possible think it's okay that a late game full build adc can crit for 1.7k dmg and pretend like a Xerath doing 1500 dmg with full rotation is okay It's ridiculous
>You practically removed the real counter to ADC by nerfing the ** out of all assassins-like champions. You gave ADC's a stronger early and mid game. And to top it of, you pretty much re-defined every class on how they can help ADC do their job better This, plus releasing a ton of broken anti-anti-carry items
: 9gag accidentally reliesed the Sona rework
Rainfall (EUNE)
: Riot Not Going To Give Armor To Ap Mids
If you were permabanning Yasuo and Zed this season you were doing something wrong
Rioter Comments
: >In this case, it means that in one of the most important games in most of C9's players careers they felt like Graves was their best option. Actually what happened was Contractz randomly suggested it because he likes Graves and Reapered decided to allow it. Jensen admitted after the game the team never really practiced around a Graves jungle. My reading of it was a case of they were trusting their jungler's comfort and style more than anything else. >A pick in competitive is also no rare happenstance thing. When I see that, I assume that not only do these professionals think that it's the best pick for the situation but that they have also practiced it abundantly in scrimmages AND have been getting good results from the pick. If you watched the interview after the replay, you'd know this is the exact opposite of the case.
Can you give a source for your claims?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
Meddler before few months you said something about looking at waveclear with the intent of some changes. What happened to that?
kargish (EUW)
: What if Rengar became an actual stalker?
Thats a great suggestion actually. Unusual for these forums
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