: Prediction: If Riots plan to buff tanks is just to buff their damage
I would be perfectly fine with tanks receiving better ability to stick to their target and shrug of damage. Why? because people would like more to be killed slowly so that they would be made painfully aware of how hopeless their situation are before they see the grey screen.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5APqEc6c,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-30T08:57:14.072+0000) > _**What makes a Assassin "fair"?**_ What makes an Assassin fair in my opinion is a social contract that no longer exists for the Assassin design philosophy. That social contract entailed a handful of things: - An Assassin should be able to kill you in lane easily, but they should have extremely poor farming mechanics and must expend key abilities in order to achieve moderate farm. - An Assassin killing you should mean they are staying even, not getting ahead. "Getting ahead" for them should entail outleveling you and ganking other lanes, applying pressure, etc. Now an Assassin is allowed to just farm perfectly under the tower and their scaling is guaranteed, whereas they used to be forced to get kills and light/moderate farm to scale. You know, because they were Assassins. Assassins designed today just have the best of all worlds now. They kill you repeatedly in lane and they can maintain perfect farm. There is no analog to this privilege in the game. It's hard to even think of a hypothetical one. Imagine an ADC scaling heavily without needing farm, in other words, their late-game is guaranteed and nothing is required of them to get to late-game. The community would not tolerate this, but this is analogous to what we currently tolerate with Assassins. Nothing is required of them to hit their stride. The 0/3/0 Zed who failed to be an Assassin in lane was able to farm well enough, so he will just meander on down to Bottom lane and 100-0 someone because he safely farmed a core item under his tower.
That's terrible design from player experience point when playing against an assassin. Grey screen is the problem. Not strategical impact the assassin has. Yeah yeah we can talk how the latter is more important, but that's not what people are generally concerned about. Especially this suggestion, that you somehow should balance assassin over killing his lane opponent as a default. That's just .. sorry, but utterly moronic design, equivalent to stuffed triangle shape to square hole.
: >What makes a Assassin "fair"? As I look at it, a "fair" assassin is one that gives the opponent a chance to fight back. Not just through shitty, forced delays (as part of the assassin rework did), but rather through more natural delays (Something along the lines of Zed's R, or Evelynn's W) and through having reasonably dodgable abilities that *set up* their kill (Such as Ekko's stun, Eve's W, Ahri's E, etc.). An assassin ***should not have the damage to kill a healthy target*** without landing at least 2/3 of these reasonably-difficult skillshots. If the skillshot can *easily* be used point-blank and is near-instant, it's not a valid ability for this, because it's not reasonably dodgeable. Zed's Q coming out of R just isn't reasonably dodgeable, because it's point fucking blank. >What do you think a fair Assassin would feel like to play as/against? A fair assassin would feel like a test of skill for both the assassin and for the opponent. Nearly every death to one should feel like *you* failed, not like you were just fucked to begin with. Everyone should have a reasonable chance of surviving one - even in a 1v1 - And the assassin should have a reasonable chance of killing nearly anyone - Even in a 5v5. It should have less to do with positioning (that's more against mages) and more about proper outplay. The test of skill would not be whether or not a {{champion:40}} or {{champion:117}} was nearby to save the ADC, but rather whether or not the ADC could dodge the abilities properly.
If you make assassins being able to take out their targets 50:50 when we can simply delete entire class of champions. There will be no point picking them to begin with. Namely, the assassin shouldn't be taxed to pull off what it's role supposed to do. Squish however should be taxed hard for having a chance to win versus assassin 1v1. The engagement should never be on equal footing. Otherwise, there is no point in assassins. Why would you pick a champion who's mediocre (50:50) at one thing it's supposed to be doing and simply bad at everything else? Now, you pick assassin to have an definite edge over your opponent. And if you don't get that definite edge, all you're left with it's shortcomings. It seems that's what most people actually want is to delete entire class. They just articulate it in very sloppy way, generally by proposing how their kits should change to the point of being useless or not assassins.
Xavanic (NA)
: dunno what to ban anymore
I ban Trynd .. just don't like the champ. :D
: I Hate The Disrespect For Low Elo Players
Hashinshin is garbage. And people who follow his talking points are too in general. That's the bulk of toxicity in the game. https://youtu.be/fFHS1C5VKSI https://youtu.be/9kAagyuArrE Argument should stand on their merits. Rank is irrelevant. Although, generally people of low rank don't make sound arguments. However, it's important to point out that just because you have high rank, does not make your words and arguments true by default either. But people are lazy and care more about feeling right rather than actually being correct on things. So they oversimplify.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 27
I do believe that trying to balance lcs and soloq is a fools errand. It's not even a question of players being of high skill, but that entire environment of the game is drastically different due to much higher levels of team cohesion which is not achievable even in highest levels of play in soloq. It's a different game. Maybe it's time to admit it finally, because it looks like beating on the dead horse for countless iterations by now. What this produce is that it makes some champions LCS exclusive and removes those champions for play for players who actually play the game. This gets so horrific at times that you actually do not want to see your favorite champions in LCS doing well anymore, because if you do that causes anxiety that you're favorite pick will get hammered. Yeah, on the surface they still exist and anyone can pick them, but in practice they simply do not work and serve as a trap. At this point it seems that only legit options is to remove these champions from competitive or tune them differently, much like some champions are tuned differently in twisted tree line. Because otherwise there is no neutral gear here. Either LCS goes first or the rest of the players. Someone will has less champions to play with. And it's insanely demotivating when your main gets the lcs treatment. I've essentially quit playing lol on any serious level after Shen got nerf hammered back at the season 6 I think. It's just not worth, it's not fun, it's not enjoyable when you feel that to play the things you enjoy the most, you put yourself at huge disadvantage. And lcs be damned really. This makes players hate it when it directly takes their favorite picks from them. Sometimes the only picks which makes them like the game.
Shobek (NA)
: Bring back old runes - Give them to everyone for free - Make reccomended pages for new players.
The old runes were garbage. It's like with any other game which offers a lot of needless complexity with loads of inferior choices just to add one more grind / timesink / chore to the game, which provided passive stats. The meaningful choices are now built in. and are part of champions while passive stats as choices are removed. So that player would not gimp themselves. "Dumbing down >: O" - there was nothing smart about runes. There was no problem solving related to the rune pages. Just look up to forums copy paste builds, done. Current mastery pages are a lot better and generally (not all, still need to improve some) provide some sort of mechanic which player can base decisions on. Rather than just have passive stats. You should counter-act players. Not counter-grind (dumb time sink of any kind, including going to forums copy paste rune pages) players with runes before the game against that player even begins. Mastery pages to shine still requires acting, while passive stats do not. Even if there is a few instances of imbalanced match ups (not sure if that's a big issue that few match ups are super difficult, some should be like that), that's a small price to pay for huge problems the old rune pages infected the game with. Same goes for meaningless yet excessive talent trees. Which only provide illusion of choice, yet what they actually provide is meaningless noise and a traps for people who do not grind. Seriously f grinding. Show problem solving, not time sinking. One should not be rewarded just for sitting in front of screen for hours.
: Reached a Point Where Mobility & Inflated Kits are Ruining The Game For Me
I don't really get what 'overloaded kit' means. Just reminds me of this scene: https://youtu.be/c-nLNEQz88Q For example in top lane, I've noticed that most lane bullies are actually immobile or with very little mobility to speak of.
: Rework him again, I say. Reverting him would only make things worse, since they were doing the same thing before his rework too. Vorpal Blade healing 3 HP over several seconds was so hilariously bad that people used it to last hit and harass rather than as an actual dueling tool. He won't survive in this meta unless he gets a real rework instead of the half-assed approach they took with the spirit anchor. It feels like an unfinished ability, and I would wager that it is.
I liked the rework, personally, my issue is that he's simply kept underpowered ult bot. Currently that also stands true in LCS where he is used for very same reason and is picked in support position, where he doesn't take away more impactful top laner position. At the time when he reached all times low 44w/r, the reason for nerfing was that lcs teams play around Shen and bail him out from failure points due to lack of energy or similar. That's unique to specific game environment,, yet players who play the game must pay the price, but cannot technically reap the benefit due to difference of game environment. :( Back to the point, LCS and SoloQ must be decoupled.
Rioter Comments
Queš (EUW)
: Thats the point,Mao can just back off after it and be basically incincible for Jax(7-0 OMEGALUL).Its not about damage,its about kit. Ah and of course,1-2-1 bami tabi bramble Maokai need to outtrade 7-0-0 carry top,this makes sense,conq too op Kappa
So you want to be able to burst a tank under tower? Sorry, I'm not fallowing.
Glîtchy (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=kurnubego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ewAZExGY,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2018-07-09T23:32:58.733+0000) > > I think at this point there was a thread like this for each and every champion. > > Yes, he is. Distinct strong points, distinct weak points. CC doesn't count as a weak point, almost every champ shares that
No, not really. There are champions which have less predicable move patterns. And thus can only be reliably cc'ed by point and click abilities. There is also champions who stay out of range and can't be cc'ed reliably by point n click (short range abilites) or can dodge long range ones without much issue. And there are bulkier champions who may also build tenacity and getting cc'ed doesn't mean death by default. "But Q!" Q is predictable move pattern. And only useful against players who blow their cc right away. When in fact it's reliable move pattern which allows to trap him, since you know where exactly he gonna appear after a second. So no. It's not the same. Far from it.
Queš (EUW)
: Tanks b4 Conqueror btw OMEGALUL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ37DFwmwaA&feature=youtu.be Seems like we want this pure skill and fairness back because this makes sense right?
Jax is simply playing poorly. I've pointed out my remarks in other thread :)
: Is Yi at all a healthy champ?
I think at this point there was a thread like this for each and every champion. Yes, he is. Distinct strong points, distinct weak points.
Aimléss (NA)
: You can't outplay him without CC. Any champ like that is flawed by default.
Your team comp is flawed.
Queš (EUW)
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ37DFwmwaA&feature=youtu.be Tanks b4 conqueror OMEGALUL
In short trade, yes. Maokai blew all of his cooldowns and aftershock. Jax has autos and continues stream of damage Maokai can't hope to top past single rotation. It's easy 1v1 kill if not for tower protecting maokai. It's not that maokai does a lot of damage, is that jax is squish and the opponent doesn't die in one rotation so is able to hit back. That's all it takes. With ultimate on trade would go very differently. OMGLUL.. this mindless "tanks do too much damage" circle jerk is annoying.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=RaikoPlays,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L0qHAKjN,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-08T21:29:53.040+0000) > > Remember when you actually had to think about your build as an AD assassin? The other side of the coin is that you actually had to think about what you wanted to build against assassins because tank items actually had value. However, that was declared as unfun for the assassin mains who could not 100-0 the enemy champions, because that was their fantasy role. My issue with the assassin role is I don't find the "fantasy" to be balance able just like I don't find the tank "fantasy" to be viable to balance. How do you balance something being able to 100% kill anything while still having the safety to get in and out? To top it off, tanks and supports and even control mages were nerfed to the point where they are unable to stop assassins unless they get the very first reaction off. That is why we are where we are right now where everyone does assassin level damage, because at least if you react to them jumping you, they might die first. The reason I don't think tanks fantasy is balance-able is because I see it as never dying. You also can't balance a class around being 100% unkillable. My proposed change is that we revert assassins back to when they just finished off players at lower hp. Sure everyone is going to complain that assassins are weak, but fuck it, if assassins are able to 100-0 everyone instantly there are 4 other classes that can't play the game (tanks, supports, adc's, mages)
"My proposed change is that we revert assassins back to when they just finished off players at lower hp." When exactly that was the case? Don't point me time frame, point me what kind of champions and meta was currently dominating at that time. Leathality nerfed assassins. Even at max level you don't receive the armor pen you did after purchasing the item. Add that to runes and masteries. That was 52 flat armor pen at mid game.The change happened because once assassin got 2 kills in lane it span out of control so rapidly that usually it ment gg.
Bijeesny (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=RH Venom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lUAuFmlz,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-08T02:23:16.725+0000) > > I'm not going to talk about the glory days that I've had with league and how I'd wish we could go back to them, rather, I'm just going to give bullet points as to how ruined it is right now. > > 1) Damage is to high, you can't fight me on this, it's just to high, period, move on. > > Solution? Dial back damage on everyone by 10-15% on all abilities/base stats and start from there. > Completely agree. > 2) Towers and games are moving too quickly, there is no such thing as late game anymore, and the "live design team" state that this is intended because they don't want games to be too long in competitive. TO LONG FOR WHO? THE 500 PEOPLE THAT COME TO THE LCS STUDIO? WHO ARE YOU CATERING TO? You don't have 25,000 people filling a stadium every week, this is an online game that most people watch on there phones on the go, or on the computer. > > Solution? Bring back 40-55 minute games where outplay potential requires you to think 10-14 seconds ahead in a team fight, not 2 seconds. > With Riot refusing to buff towers, and nerfing tp, I don't think they will make games longer, which is fucking sad. Is this game for playing, or for watching? > 3) Your "live design team", is a joke, a literal joke. Some of them don't even play the actual game. Some of them are ranked very low and don't understand damage potentials and what not, all they see are numbers on a spread sheet and who needs to be buffed/nerfed because a computer algorithm told them to. Also, Ghostcrawler is a joke. > > Solution? Get new people to design your game, people who actually care about the game, not these headless chickens running around. > It would be okay for them to not play the game, but only if they would listen to players feedback. > 4) Runes reforged pushed the game deeper into the hole of garbage. The entire system is unbalanceable or will take years to even start to see any balance of it. Stop watch is an abomination, who thought that it would be a good idea to give a free zhonyas active that can 100% turn the sway of a fight, or even give the ability to buy it out right? Resolve is a shit show in itself, you know why it's so overpowered in terms of sustain and durability? BECAUSE DAMAGE IS TO HIGH, who would of thought that insane sustain in lane would be needed when there's so much damage floating around? > > Solution? Go back to the old Runes/Masteries, it was much healthier. > I'm still asking myself 'Whats the point of these runes?'. Riot said they want to create diversity in your rune setup, but that's far from reality. Old rune system had much more diverse options. It's true that most people took rune builds recommended by pros / Lol guide websites, but players like me always made their own rune setup, and I honestly hope they bring it back one day. > 5) RNG never needed to be introduced into this game farther than crit, zoe/dragon RNG/scuttle bull shit/fruit plants, that was all un needed. > > Solution? Go back to fundamentals of season 1-3 where RNG was looked down upon and didn't need to be in the game, take it out. > imo, only Zoe is the 'rng issue'. The rest of it isn't THAT bad. > 6) Stop giving everyone complex flashy kits, the community is tired of it, do you know why? Because we're sensitized from how much of it you've put in the game. When Zed was first released, he was absolutely insane to watch pull off a combo and jump around a team fight. Now? Almost everyone has insane crazy kits. > > Solution? ease up on the insanity of kits, you don't need that, it makes your player base tired of flashy plays because they happen all the time now. > i don't think a lot of players mind flashy kits, but those kits are mostly OP on relase (Zoe, Kaisa, AAtrox??) > > 8) Your little patch big patch cycles being a joke are a product of your idiotic design team. > > Solution? Do 1 huge patch every 1 month, or 2 months, that addresses many things. > Good idea. > I don't know what else to list, but I don't care to put anymore thought into it, as the design team doesn't care either. > So this ^ My final thought about all this: I'm like Hashinshin, I just want to go back in time where my biggest concern was how to play against Riven :P
"It would be okay for them to not play the game, but only if they would listen to players feedback." - They do. Big part of this whole damage meta is due to player feedback. Problem is players pushing for changes usually have very little for sight how those changes will actually effect the game. I mean the question is when which player feedback you should listen to? I remember Hashinshin crowd this winter. I think last year november / december. Neace made good response video, no longer relevant, but serves as reference to .. well, overall maturity and cognitive capacity of players who give 'feedback'. https://youtu.be/fFHS1C5VKSI Another question is how do you listen to feedback. Player saying item x requires more damage doesn't mean that item x needs more damage. It only means that the player feels that item x needs more damage. And this might be due to number of different factors. Third, players who play a game in few or only one role see the game in very low resolution. They are fixated on close proximity phenomena which they regard as an issue, but can't really say why it happens. That's why we can only refer to master / challenger players or actual game analysts to make proper judgement in this case. Small change, lets say in bot lane to specific item, can cause chain reaction to touch top lane. Now when you're bot lane player you don't think about such things. But the one doing the balancing must take it into consideration. Forth. They do listen to feedback. And that's mainly done by questionnaires which are distributed via in game client. Boards consist of very limited and certain type of player which are not an accurate reflection of the majority. And there is ofc reddit.. which also reflects another / partly the same part which also not reflect the majority.
Ðïana (NA)
: It's the generally accepted build on the Dianamains reddit, as well as on some of the high end Diana streamers. She's an extremely versatile champion, with a lot of build diversity. I build her every which way, but I DO follow the reddit almost religiously. Revolver+Deathcap is an extremely accepted build for Diana. It may have changed a bit in the last patch or two for any number of reasons, but overall it's often discussed as her best rush if she isn't behind.
A bit off topic, but .. what do you think about Hail of blades on Diana?
: And not the meta where fucking tanks are dealing more base damage than any other class. We need tank meta from season 2 and season 3 when ADCs bought a tank item, let alone other classes. Teamfights involved multiple spell rotations, MANY OUTPLAYS (something that just doesn't exist any more) and tactical awareness combined with teamwork. Funniest thing is that back then regular gamepaly was same as LCS because it was perfectly balanced, nowadays assassins are breaking the game in SoloQ while mages are garbage, meanwhile in LCS mages still "dominate".
You can still find success with picks like Swain (tanky) or Brand (reliable stun super high damage).. but I can't imagine what kind of hell it's for Xerath players.
pistoria (NA)
: ulting as shen is fucking pointless now
:( .. yeah. Stopped playing on my main account. I guess you can still do well with Shen with extra effort. But it just doesn't feel fair and therefor enjoyable to continue playing my favorite champion. As if nerfs due to LCS wasn't enough on it's own.
: How the fuck do I counter the insane damage that is in the game right now?
And someday, the young ones will realize, that for tactical game play to resurface we need to find ways back to the tank meta.
: Snowballing Erases Skill Expression
Not sure about what kind of skill you're talking about. Harnessing gold and taking advantage of early power spikes or turtling for scaling are common options. Without gold you make early game irrelevant. One's amount of earned gold is the ultimate skill expression. Flashy outplays are secondary if matter at all.
Ðïana (NA)
: Revolver+Deathcap rush is pretty standard on Diana, including at the highest levels of (Diana) play. Not sure about the other AP Divers, I'd guess that other items might just be more efficient for them, but for Diana at least it's definitely a core item in most builds. Either RoA+Nashors, or Revolver+Deathcap, for initial rush items.
Seems like the standard build is Nashors to zonhyas or lich bane. Any item which comes 3rd or 4th can't really be considered core. Lolalytics suggest that. But after checking pro builds net it also does not support your claim. Maybe that's the way you build it.
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=kurnubego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3FG29UIU,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2018-07-07T14:07:08.001+0000) > > It's equivalent of IE. Not a necessary item to keep champion scaling relevant. It's useful on some champions. Champions which has less use of Deathcap are diving / melee AP champions like Ekko, Fizz etc. IE is NOT the equivalent lol. One it's crit only, and two it gives true damage not AD. It isn't buildable on any ad champion. Also both of those build dc...
Well same way marksman is not equivalent to a mage. But generally the items are equivalent to respected 'classes'. And it's been written by developers quite a few times when balancing the items. Goal of both item is to increase damage scaling based on previously bought ones. Ofc it's buildable. Just not really useful.
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Master2139,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3FG29UIU,comment-id=000d00000002,timestamp=2018-07-07T03:33:28.643+0000) > > Vladimir, Swain, Brand are the top champions in botlane while aside from lucian and kaisa who is hybrid, ad marksmans are at their weekness https://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=ADC&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend Please feel free to edit your comment. Vlad especially was an interesting choice, that 47% winrate and 2.25% playrate is REALLY scary....
LCS go first, pub goes second. Vladimir is still very relevant pick in competitive.
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Melledoneus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3FG29UIU,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2018-07-07T06:28:44.807+0000) > > At least AD doesn't have a Rabadon's equivalent. > > ...I hope this doesn't become a thing. {{champion:202}} {{champion:238}} AP vs AD scaling on abilities have deathcap taken into account though, meaning that deathcap is pretty much a requirement for most AP.
It's equivalent of IE. Not a necessary item to keep champion scaling relevant. It's useful on some champions. Champions which has less use of Deathcap are diving / melee AP champions like Ekko, Fizz etc.
ADC Bard (NA)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=ADC Bard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OIAZquPM,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-06T01:15:11.066+0000) > > Windows 7 takes around 5 GB once installed, I've had to reinstall windows multiple time, I know what I am talking about. You don't. Keep spouting your ignorant hate on windows, it's pure comedy to me. > > {{champion:432}} I have windows 7 on one of my current machines. And it's over 25 gb. But it's not even the main issue. A significant minority of people have huge issue using any kind of propriety OS. "Suck it up" well, consumer problem is also the providers problem. Gaming industry was catering to propriety os'es too much already. I'm aware that kid gamers aren't very tech savy, but not only children play now days. It's legit entertainment media. And it benefits you if people who are more serious and have free money to spend have access to entertainment you are using for free. There aren't many developers who use windows as their mainstay OS. Well, mac might be popular between some front-end engineers, but other than that it's usually some kind of debian based distribution. It's not that people really 'hate' on windows, it's that it is generic propriety OS designed for casual everyday user. Not everyone are casual users.
: Tbh I'd love a more "balanced" tank meta. I feel like it's the most enjoyable one, biggest issue is that tanks in this state will simply deal too much damage and prevent anything else from being picked. A "tank meta" with tanks actually dealing less damage would be far more enjoyable because you'd actually feel like outplaying someone (dodging things and managing to kill the guy). But y'all remember {{champion:516}} over-buff after his release 100-0 with one rotation with {{item:3800}}
That's usually the one which requires most skill, due to the room of outplays longevity provides and windows for team communication through fights. Something which is rather absent in high damage metas as there is little tactic in who gets to blink first. I suppose the later chaos can be fun to watch for a while, it gets dull rather soon too, as people learn the risk and simply stop risking it after fooling around a bit.
: Riot Scuttle crab meta Riot introduces a "mini objective" to limit river vision, reduce jungle diversity (they lied about increasing/improving it). Jungle camps experience nerfed hard leaving solo junglers under level of solo laners usually for 6 mins in game up to new mid game of 10 (mid game used to be further along) by 2-4 levels making only early ganking or dueling junglers meta, removing a lot of tanks/ap and late scaling junglers. Duo Junglers on other hand played a carry jungler teamed with a support in lane by taking jungle and a lane (as really only way jungle has any real impact in scuttle crab meta). Riot then proceeds to nerf junglers who were barely in the fray (Not the S tier junglers but the B-F grade junglers).
Maybe people try things with hope of making them better but due to a lot of variables, so many that such of yourself wouldn't be able to make a single good thing out of, it backfires a bit? What's up with "lie" thing here?
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=kurnubego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=000400000000000100010000,timestamp=2018-07-04T05:33:09.707+0000) > > Which tanks exactly do a lot of damage? We don't count early game until people have at least two times, because that's time before any character specializes. Lets say at two and a half items mark. > "Which tanks exactly do a lot of damage? We don't count the bit taht they do high daage in but prefer to focus on the point where everyone else has managed to catch up through scaling." I short, ALL of them do too much damage early, and aren't tanky enough throughout. > CC/Utility is main tank tool (depending on subclass). "Tanks" who have little cc aren't tanks, those are commonly juggernauts, who are DAMAGE carries. They pay for their high damage and ability to eat a lot of damage by low mobility and poor target access. They are commonly bullies in lane too, unless you play ranged champion because they can simply overpower most other champions. That's Darius, Mundo, Garen, Volibear. > Yeah, when I think of under-powered i always think of Daruis, Mundo, Garen and Volibear.... Tehy are more tanky then tanks, do more damage then anyone, and tend to be more mobile as well. They all also have CC... > Tanks are Shen, Nautilus, Rammus, Maokai. Yeah I know who the tanks are, just look for the ones that have huge early damage, then fall off in every way mid/late game. Want that to change? Give up some of that pointless early damage...
Sorry but I don't see you laying down arguments. Just frustrations. >Yeah, when I think of under-powered i always think of Daruis, Mundo, Garen and Volibear.... Tehy are more tanky then tanks, do >more damage then anyone, and tend to be more mobile as well. They all also have CC... Primary role of these champions is to do DAMAGE. These are CARRIES. The price they pay for it is target access. However, target access isn't all that huge when you're 1v1 in lane that's why they become lane bullies. They aren't tanky early either, so they do some damage. Just as pretty much anyone else. Honestly how much though you've put into this other than just being upset about perceived unfairness? How much you think roles should stand out? How much of a purist specialists champions must be. What is ok damage for a tank? 1/2 hp ? 1/3 hp of a squish in quick rotation? Do you know what juggernauts are and what's they role in the game? Can you tell a difference between Sejuani and Garen other than both preferably building tank items? The way you deal with a juggenaut is not by outdamaging them, because they have high damage and supposed to have it, but by not allowing yourself to be close to them. Not to come as offensive, but I see these posts again and again and again and it doesn't seem that people really put the effort to learn, read and analyse. Do you watch lcs at least?
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=kurnubego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-03T23:04:33.598+0000) > > Juggernauts are carries as is their role is to do damage (Darius, Mundo, Olaf, Garen etc). They are not tanks. When we are talking tanks we are speaking champions like Moakai, Nautilus or Shen. Also Steraks was originally designed to be used by Juggernauts. It also now gives bonus, not base. Since 8.12 I think. > Yes i know this, and with steraks it depends on which change you mean (Bonus AD was 8.12, the bonus HP scaling on the shield was LONG before that). I'm not sure how that changes the fact that if you buff ANY items from the "tank" list, you are in essence also buffing anyone that builds either Steraks or Titanic. > Also if you are this .. philosophy proponent that tanks should do no damage if they don't build such, how about removing any kind of life steal from carries, because it is de facto tank stat. Why should they be able to build both with single direction of itemization huh? Gunblade, Ruined King, Bloodthirster, Death Dance. We could also remove sustain from abilities. > I'm not saying tanks should do no damage, I'm saying they should do LESS damage then they currently do. They only need to do so much damage because they lack tankiness, so if they are to gain more tankiness, there has to be a trade off. With regards to lifesteal, I main mages and have to do without any healing beyond my potions, so others could too though I fear this is more an attempt at retaliation rather then a real suggestion, like me saying "well if tanks are tanky then they don't need any CC because that's a mage stat. Lifesteal is clearly not a tank stat as fuck all tanks build it.
Which tanks exactly do a lot of damage? We don't count early game until people have at least two times, because that's time before any character specializes. Lets say at two and a half items mark. CC/Utility is main tank tool (depending on subclass). "Tanks" who have little cc aren't tanks, those are commonly juggernauts, who are DAMAGE carries. They pay for their high damage and ability to eat a lot of damage by low mobility and poor target access. They are commonly bullies in lane too, unless you play ranged champion because they can simply overpower most other champions. That's Darius, Mundo, Garen, Volibear. Tanks are Shen, Nautilus, Rammus, Maokai.
: > [{quoted}](name=kurnubego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-03T23:04:33.598+0000) > > Juggernauts are carries as is their role is to do damage (Darius, Mundo, Olaf, Garen etc). They are not tanks. When we are talking tanks we are speaking champions like Moakai, Nautilus or Shen. Also Steraks was originally designed to be used by Juggernauts. It also now gives bonus, not base. Since 8.12 I think. > > Also if you are this .. philosophy proponent that tanks should do no damage if they don't build such, how about removing any kind of life steal from carries, because it is de facto tank stat. Why should they be able to build both with single direction of itemization huh? Gunblade, Ruined King, Bloodthirster, Death Dance. We could also remove sustain from abilities. Juggs are peseou/off tanks. They have the same durability as tanks should have but higher damage, the trade off is that juggs can't peel or engage on their own so if they can get in the enemy game it's GG. In addition they also lack Utility apart from a few select ones and doesn't offer much but tankiness(LUL in this meta) and damage.
Sorry, but you're just demonstrably wrong, as one board participant already pointed out.
: There is little point in tanks if they can't tank the damage. I propose buffing all tank items to the point where they can shrug of 10 seconds of focus fire from an entire opposing team. See how beyond stupid it would be balance a class solely around their name? They are called assassins, so what? That doesn't mean they should be able to unconditionally assassinate anything that isn't a tank. In a balanced game, you'd have to either catch your target out of position or be fed enough to take them out even with a team protecting them.
That's false equivalence. You can tank some damage and you can do some damage. You cannot some kill, and that's why they are very hard to balance and are extra sensitive to numbers and base damage values (tank fizz / ekko). There is no some less or some more damage in case of assassins, just 'enough' damage or not. You either take away the additional gun out of the team or you don't. If latter becomes true assassins will become obsolete and in turn Divers will completely take over their role. There is no point in assassin if it can't 100-0. Assasssins should be balanced in the way pull off a rotation the target gets pop. The defense is not to eat that rotation. If you want assassins removed from the game when agitate it like this. Because now it doesn't seem you forsee the effects of what you're proposing. So either you don't thought about it very much and just feel frustrated, or generally, don't care about anyone else but yourself in the game. Currently rotations of assassins are quite slow and provide plenty of time to react. Talon W, plenty of time. Zed initiates his ult in around 3 seconds, plenty of time to avoid damage. Fizz, maybe a bit too frontloaded, but plenty of time to dodge. The only champion who jumps and deletes you now maybe is Rengar, who is NOT an assassin, but Diver.
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=The God of Rams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-07-03T09:43:35.124+0000) > > Sterak's doesn't scale offensively off tank, so that's not an issue. The only issue here is Titanic. Also, I haven't seen an Irelia build mostly full Tank in a long time to be honest. > Steraks works of BASE AD which scales with level, and Bonus HP which scales of tank items. Thus it scales both as a damage item and as a tank item. Irelia was used as an example in this case because she can easily go 2 items in tank (and often do) without negative impact. > Also, every Top Laner right now that goes 1-2 damage items and then pure Tank is actually performing pretty dang bad. The best Top Laners are the ones that build several items that grant offensive bonuses along with very minor defensive ups, like Trinity Force, Sterak's, Titanic, Black Cleaver, Dead Man's Plate, and Sunfire Cape. The only Top Laners that build pure or mostly pure Tank now are Cho'Gath, Ornn, Mundo, and Maokai. The rest build mostly damage items with enough minor defensive boosts sprinkled in to make them not die to Marksman basic attacks. > If you can find me a successful Top Lane champion that solely builds Trinity and maybe one other offensive item then goes PURE TANK (not Sunfire, Dead Man's, or Abyssal because you don't build those for Tank, you build those because they have the added bonus of giving Tank stats along with their effects) and isn't one of the champions I named, you'd have surprised me. I think you're confused as to what are TANK items... Sunfire for example is a TANK item. It does a little AOE damage for helping clear waves, but mainly it is tank. Same for abyssal, it increases magic damage within a small radius around you, so your mages can do bonus damage while you are in the fray, but otherwise it is clearly for tanks. Deadman's grants mobility, but is STILL a tank item. I think where we're getting wires crossed is what you consider a TANK item. A tank item to me is one that gives only defensive stats (thus being a tank item). They might had a passive that does something damagey like sunfire or deadmans or thornmail, but the STATS on them are clearly for a tank (HP, Armour, MR, HP regen etc). When you start thinking along those lines, you realise "but wait, almost all of those items can be built by divers, juggernauts, bruisers and anyone else AD in top lane!" and hopefully my comment will make sense to you.
Juggernauts are carries as is their role is to do damage (Darius, Mundo, Olaf, Garen etc). They are not tanks. When we are talking tanks we are speaking champions like Moakai, Nautilus or Shen. Also Steraks was originally designed to be used by Juggernauts. It also now gives bonus, not base. Since 8.12 I think. Also if you are this .. philosophy proponent that tanks should do no damage if they don't build such, how about removing any kind of life steal from carries, because it is de facto tank stat. Why should they be able to build both with single direction of itemization huh? Gunblade, Ruined King, Bloodthirster, Death Dance. We could also remove sustain from abilities.
: Defense is mathematically inferior to damage
When there is too much damage going around general skill required to play the game decreases. What we end up is church of scuttle crab or ward cheering, because if player is somewhat skillful one rather not take a gamble because the time window to take advantage of variables present in situation is shorter and more relies on .. pure luck or who blinks first. And that's not consistently winning strategy. Now sure, what we have is super easy to get baron and awfully expensive crit items so we end up with some chaotic meta for the time being, but in general the outplay quality in LCS is garbage. There is very little of it. It's either foolish mistakes of damage forsight or forced fights around baron which work like clown fiesta when you actually watch the events unfold in slow motion without casters yelling. What tanks previously gave is longevity. For team fighting it ment that bigger risks could be taken because there were there more possibilities for bail outs as well as more room for outplays. As longer time spans allow for more tactical thinking within the moment as well as team communication. Very little of it is present. First time I have to say, that I do think that quality of pro play decreased. Not because players got worse, gosh, current players are way better than whatever lol had at early seasons, but just the game pace and how it allow players to execute their plans leaves less variables and windows to work with, thus less opportunities for skill to manifest. When defense and offense is actually balanced, the default go to option in case of doubt is always defense. And that's simply correct way to play the game, well, almost any game. As punishing mistakes and not doing mistakes yourself is always easier to control and more cost effective than than to force others to make mistakes when all variables are equally impactful. Now it has been attempt to forcefully break it.. and in turn dumb down the game.
: You are quite literally missing the point lol. 1. Assassins SHOULD NOT be able to 100-0 a target UNLESS they are Fed. 2. Assassins SHOULD NOT be able to get in and out in the blink of an eye. 3. Assassins SHOULD NOT have some of the best wave clear in the game.
1. When there is little point in assassins if assassin can't assassinate the target. If you want to get rid of entire class of champions when state it like that. 2. Yes they should. And that's main feature which differentiates Assassins from Divers. In turn they get nuked just as fast when CC'ed. 3. They don't. What they have is some waveclear which can be useful in lanining phase and not to waste time while farming side lines. They can't however, defend vs siege. Remove that bit of wavelcear and you will need to buff their pvp to keep them relevant as they won't be effective at roaming anymore.
: Every time I get to 52% I get slammed with bronze, preliminary, and 30% win rate people for like twenty games.
You also get more points for winning in that circumstance in your league progression.
Elohaven (NA)
: Garen is losing because he's a dirtbag in the God King lore
I though it's because Damacia is totalitarian s***hole country.
Infernape (EUW)
: It's because everyone (read: AD champions) have easy access to true damage. Armour feels like a useless purchase against any champ that uses Conqueror or Infinity Edge (bonus points if they use both). You get shredded far too easily (like Conqueror Yi with Bloodrazor and Guinsoos) dealing a shit ton of damage as unmitigatable damage.
I remember after hashinshin contraversy whine festival .. I've been pointing out what will happen. Sometimes I hate to be right. People suggesting balance chances have very very little oversight of how inertic meta is and how many variables there are.
: So? Currently sion is a tank and voli is a juggernaut. It doesnt matter what their other build paths are.
I'm sure that the problem we are discussing is utility of building defense. Not 'tanks' as a class. Which is mostly felt by champions who utilize building defense the most therefor people refer 'tank'.
: Aatrox rework was good, change my mind.
Well, the original design was terrible stat check champion, so it wasn't that hard to make it better. Although I like the new concept. Question is did they got the numbers right. I suppose he will receive some tuning in upcoming patches.
: What has happened to this game???
People were always complaining. Nothing new. The start of complaining from the eyes of the complainer usually commense after a year of playing the game. Or generally after the honey moon ends. I would say around 95% of all the threads and complains have absolutely zero merit. And remaining 5% generally are just partially true based on narrow sighted analysis. The number of threads on the boards indicates nothing. As people who feel satisfied with the game simply play it. People who aren't for numerous reasons search where to put their frustrations. The actual data Riot depends on is questionnaires distributed via game client and not the boards. Although boards can be useful sometimes developing a concept. The toxicity is not league of legends problem. But just how people are wired and react to social circumstance. It's not something the game invented. It's what people are when forced to play into circumstance they perceive unfair (which is often fault of their own biases, however it's irrelevant for the person it feels real). People value punishment of wrongdoers more than rewards for themselves. And this is very well documented fact of social psychology. LoL cannot solve the problem, only put incentives to try minimize such behavior, but the root problem will ALWAYS be there as long as human animal exists. I guess that's all I have to say here.
: why cant we choose our own flat stats in runes instead of forced stats
There wasn't much diversity with runes. Everything boiled down to few viable ones and everything else being a noobtrap, except for very few niche ones.
: {{champion:84}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:7}} Need to be super far in. {{champion:126}} {{champion:238}} Poke from across the map.
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Midnight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X5u4dqXJ,comment-id=00260000,timestamp=2018-06-26T01:00:30.101+0000) > > {{champion:84}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:7}} Need to be super far in. > > {{champion:126}} {{champion:238}} Poke from across the map. One example doesn't disprove a trend. As for AP assassins their itemization differs from regular mages. For example Lich Bane is unique item which doesn't have any equivalence. No tri force isn't the same, because it doesn't scale. They also been consistently very hard to balance sensibly due to this. Jayce has some poke, to actually kill something he still has to go full in. Someone like xerath, lux even ahri - doesn't.
: Indeed. Now, what do you make of the reports of perpetually-offline friends lists and famous streamers moving on?
That people in time grow up and have to attend to other responsibilities in life. Gaming becomes less of a thing. Also gaming is poor man's hobby due to it's accessibility and bang for the buck it can provide. This also changes once people grow up get better paying jobs and can afford other kind of entertainment, for example, motorbikes or tennis etc. Not saying that sums up all the gamers. Saying that people like that sum up a big portion though. Also playing same game in time gets boring. People like to discover and enjoy different things. Even if the game is rather well. For LoL to be alive for .. what 8 years now and still kicking, that's a rare thing in video game market. Yes we do have story driven games we return to, or perhaps games which offer vast modding options which keep the crowd revisiting, but for intense pvp game... nothing really came close to it for so many years and it still stands strong even today. That's rare. Remeber overwatch? was a huge hype and disappeared in a year as a huge contender, still is, there is plenty of people who enjoy it but the hype train didn't last long. We'll see about fortnite though. Deathmatch "battle royale" becoming new trend. For my taste it's stupid. But hey, I'm no longer playing video games as much as I've used to, due to reasons explained in the first paragraph, so I really don't worry too much about it. :) I also have some old story drive classics to return to (modded skyrim, mass effect trilogy), and some "new" to experience, like bioshock, dark souls or witcher. I'm fine. I still log in to have a clownfiesta in lol time to time and watch some of the competative games because I find them entertaining, especially with midseason 8 meta. For 'streamers', SRO exploded in last two years. Also, streaming is not a real job. :D It's perfectly natural that people move on. Or sometimes they just get bored of the game and don't feel that playing it like a chore is of benefit to anyone. Like Neace who's playing fortnite now. But that rarely ever happens because "to tanky tanks" or some nonsense like that. Although a person may throw that as justification. And sometimes, they might even believe it? Hah, sorry don't want to pretend I'm a mindreader, but I do think people understand it. And sometimes. Sometimes it's actually rage quit.
: Riot says they prioritize making the game fresh and interesting...
I'm fascinated how many people here know how to balance a very complex system right out of the bat. No, game balance isn't just two variables damage vs resistances. For example, downfall of crit adc's isn't just due to crit item changes. No you haven't pointed out something obvious. That whole bunch of people who work on game balance for many years and actually do it for the living have way higher competence than you to determine it. Secondly, they probably already though about what you said before they even introduced the changes. Just sayin'. If it was so easy to make 'perfect balance' whatever that means, we would already have it. We don't, because it's not easy. And what you're suggesting doesn't solve anything. I also remember half a year there was so much crying about how bruisers are useless, the infamous and not very bright hashinshin rant was a thing at winter. And as I've predicted when and was downvoted, we are here again, no complaining how other champions have too much damage xD
: > [{quoted}](name=JGisLaneDiff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pW1w1EiZ,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-06-25T15:38:24.924+0000) > > I can't tell if people that make posts like these are tilted from being hard stuck or just low iq. > > To start off, Riot literally made bruisers, mages, and traditional marksman all viable bot lane. If that combined with the scuttle change, changes to jungle exp, baron change, introduction of new items, plus countless other changes that I didn't mention along with the standard balancing changes that they implement every patch isn't enough for you to at least think that Riot doesn't "prioritize making the game fresh and interesting" then idk if your just tilted, have awful reading comprehension so you can't read the patch notes, or are just so low iq you can't make your own conclusions regarding the game besides what your favourite streamer says. You literally haven't even played the game since April 1st, unless you are playing on other accounts and posting on that account? > I'm positive in your bronze and silver games you can play literally whatever champion you want and the "25 champions out of 135 played in high elo games" doesn't effect you. Also, there are countless examples of people playing off meta champions and getting to challenger so just cause x champion is op doesn't mean that is the only champion you can play. > > "We didn't want damage up, we wanted resistance down". Unless Riot nerfs every single champions base damage you realize that lowering resistances would increase damage, right? It's statements like these that show low little intelligence you are working with or devoted to this question. > > Next statement "Veterans keep leaving". Yes, if you play a video game as a job and for multiple hours a day you will eventually get burned out. You are obviously burned out of league and only have 120 days played according to the wasted on league website. Imagine doubling or tripling that number and doing it in a shorter time period. Veterans can get tired of literally any game, it doesn't have to be league of legends. And without these constant changes that I talked about earlier that Riot has done, these players would be leaving at a higher rate. > > Alright onto the next one, "The BE farming system cripples them from getting 20 champs...more complaining about the new BE system being worse then the old system". No, the BE system is better for new players and the similar to the ip system for lvl 30+ players. Here is a video regarding the BE system from Riot, at 2:50 to 3:00 [(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq2i6RDmbNc)] "But, you'll be able to unlock champions about as quickly as before and at lower levels it will be faster than before". > > If you dislike league of legends and are burned out don't play the game. Making a baseless and incoherent rant on the league of legends forums won't stop you from being burned out and disliking league of legends. I normally don't bother posting on here, but I've been reading so many people complaining about league of legends for the sake of complaining. If you've been reading so many posts of people complaining lately, wouldn't it make sense that an increasing number of players are becoming dissatisfied with the game? I can play games for years and not get bored of them. I started playing league of legends pretty much exactly a year ago. I was having a blast up until season 8 began. At first I was really excited, but by now I realize the game is getting worse and worse. I think if the meta didn't drastically shift to this unfun one-shot or be one-shot, then maybe the game wpuld be more tolerable. If you want to stick to your argument, that's fine, bt just know that a lot of people agree that the game is going in the wrong direction.
> [{quoted}](name=Echostormxx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pW1w1EiZ,comment-id=00080002,timestamp=2018-06-25T18:07:33.332+0000) > > If you've been reading so many posts of people complaining lately, wouldn't it make sense that an increasing number of players are becoming dissatisfied with the game? I can play games for years and not get bored of them. I started playing league of legends pretty much exactly a year ago. I was having a blast up until season 8 began. At first I was really excited, but by now I realize the game is getting worse and worse. I think if the meta didn't drastically shift to this unfun one-shot or be one-shot, then maybe the game wpuld be more tolerable. If you want to stick to your argument, that's fine, bt just know that a lot of people agree that the game is going in the wrong direction. It's common for unhappy people to say bad things and for ones who are satisfied to stay silent.
: I wish there was another AP Armor item, something with a purely anti Physical effect
My guess would be that AD champions have to put themselves at greater danger to be effective. While a lot of AP champions, not all, have safety of their range, which would make them somewhat broken.
: what an incredibly condescending response. tip that fedora bud.
And this one of rare cases where condescension is the appropriate response.
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kurnubego

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