: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=0005000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-22T23:20:38.623+0000) > > tl;dr at the bottom > > Simple: because it's not obnoxious. Ha. Hahahahaha. You realize that this is the thing people hate about ADCs, right? They have the best DPS, burst through crit, all from ranged auto attacks, that cannot miss. > You do realize certain champions getting invalidated by a very small pool of champions is a pretty big problem right? especially if those certain champions make up a pretty large pool. > Not that yasuo actually counters ranged auto attackers, he's more of an issue for skillshot based champions. Actually, no, I don’t see it as a problem. Why? Because they aren’t conpletely invalidated. Why? Because the windwall only lasts for 4 seconds, and at max rank has an 18 second CD. So that’s a 14 second downtime where he can’t block projectiles. It’s also the skill most often maxed last, so until level 13, it’s on a 26 second cooldown. That is quite the window of not invalidating. Let’s add that among champs that he does worse against, Azir, Kennen, Quinn, and more. > Only if the yasuo player sucks balls. > Windwall is instantly cast, you'd have a point if it had a delay, but it does not. Currently you need yasuo to think that you're using an ability when you're not using an ability, he needs to mess up bad. No, not really only if. It’s really not the most difficult thing to bait. Move like you’re gonna trade, cast a lower CD ability, get windwall, back away, trade when drops, profit. > This game is more than 1v1 in case you haven't noticed. yasuo can isolate those melee champs from the rest of their team, that's very much still a problem. on top of that tanks often rely on abilities that can be reflexed check via windwall, so it's really mostly bruisers who don't mind it...in 1v1 scenarios. You’re right, it is more than 1v1. But the point still stands. Melees do better against Yasuo. Yasuo’s top counters are melee champs because they can punish him more in trades and don’t care for his windwall. Perhaps windwall isolates from the rest of the team, but Yasuo needs to advance into the enemy team, either right into a melee, or a tank that can CC him, or he does so as the diver on your team takes out a more important target. > Yasuo doesn't exactly just walks up to enemies and takes damage while slowly moving in their direction, he's one of the most mobile champions in the game. No, he doesn’t just walk up to them. Never said he did. That is, unless he doesn’t have enemy minions nearby, since his mobility is literally gated by having an enemy to dash through. Otherwise, yeah, he’s just walking up to you. Even then, a good number of ranged champs have some skill that can hit pst minions and hit him. > Yasuo also should easily dps a squishy, he doesn't need windwall to negate their dps first, he either uses it to cut out their teammates, or negate their cc if they try to defend themselves with it. Depends on the champ. Are they more burst? He’ll need it as he goes in. Do they have greater DPS? He’ll need it. > Well tanks and bruisers can just take the damage(not ignore it, but survive long enough to do their job if they play properly), whereas ranged champions with avoidable damage outrange them, and assassins burst faster and have mobility, so yeah, there really isn't an issue with point click ranged auto attacks. If tanks and fighters were having such an easy time with it, we wouldn’t have all the issues with being killed too fast even when the target doesn’t have armor pen. And yes, while that is all the case, there is an issue with point click ranged autoattacks. Just outranging them doesn’t equate to counterplay. counterbuilding with armor should work yet it doesn’t always. Assassins currently have to burst faster because of the nature of current adc auto attack damage. > Yes, because you can easily outplay a ranged dpser if YOU play your cards right, due to the instant cast of windwall(and his fast dashes) to beat yasuo HE has to mess up. So, wait. You say you can outplay a ranged dpser by playing cards right, but you say Yasuo’s card is unfair because it allows him to do better against ranged? His card that’s a full 4 seconds with a max 26 second CD until layegame, which allows him to stop otherwise unstoppable damage? Did you know Yasuo was built with battling ranged targets in mind, and that’s his only real defensive tool in order to do so? > It's why yasuo has a 70% banrate, and is consistently one of the most banned and hated champions in league, stop playing stupid. It’s not just his windwall. It’s also his double crit, his mobility, his lack of resource, his free shield, his ultimate putting him outside turret range. It’s funny, if it was just his windwall, he wouldn’t get as much complaints. Because Jax doesn’t get dodge complaints, Braum does get Unbreakable complaints, and yet they do the same thing *on a lower CD* too. Also, thanks for the insult in saying I’m stupid or “playing stupid”. This discussion will be done then > Yeah that's because good counters require playing properly, instead of "pass a reflex check to invalidate". You’re right, good counters do require playing properly instead of passing a reflex check, which is why Windwall is more fair. You don’t have to interact with it, and it requires playing properly both with it and against it. Meanwhile, to stop an ADC right click DPS, you need to have good reflexes to kill them faster. Thanks for that. > tl;dr : > > We can pretend like it's me saying yasuo is worse and you saying ranged point click is worse, but the banrates and neverending hate give a much clearer picture of what most players think: yasuo's reflex checking is far worse to play against than ranged autos. Except, I’m not the only one that says it. Many also respond in kind that ranged auto attacks are obnoxious. When the only ways to deal with something are to kill it fast, stay out of range, or die to it, that’s an issue, and one that is far more expansive than Yasuo’s Windwall, that has persisted longer than Yasuo’s existence, and is also mandatory in around 99% of games. They just aren’t all banned because there aren’t enough bans. Thanks for showing me I should leave the discussion though.
> [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-23T01:42:33.222+0000) > > Ha. Hahahahaha. You realize that this is the thing people hate about ADCs, right? They have the best DPS, burst through crit, all from ranged auto attacks, that cannot miss. The boards whine about anything really, generally people don't hate ADCs, unless they are op, then they hate that they are OP. You're right that the boards hate on adcs somewhat consistently, but asides from it being a boards specific thing(or maybe a low elo thing? I don't think so but maybe), even the boards hate on yasuo much more than on adcs. > Actually, no, I don’t see it as a problem. > > Why? Because they aren’t conpletely invalidated. > > Why? Because the windwall only lasts for 4 seconds, and at max rank has an 18 second CD. So that’s a 14 second downtime where he can’t block projectiles. It’s also the skill most often maxed last, so until level 13, it’s on a 26 second cooldown. That is quite the window of not invalidating. Let’s add that among champs that he does worse against, Azir, Kennen, Quinn, and more. Windwall isn't some sort of randomly activated passive, and as I've said, one of(if not THE) worst thing about it is that it's instant cast-no delay. So if you have some powerful ability, or one defensive ability that actually can defend you from yasuo, but is also telegraped, then unless it has a shorter cast+travel time than ~0.3 seconds(average human reaction time, it being even less for people with particularly fast reflexes) it's going to get negated(unless yasuo sucks), and you can't use it. An ability being able to reliably reflex check your most powerful abilities, or your only defensive abilities is VERY much invalidation. It's why kassadin lost his silence, it's why champions like fizz are so despised. It's why malzhar's minion spawn got a delay added to it. > No, not really only if. It’s really not the most difficult thing to bait. Move like you’re gonna trade, cast a lower CD ability, get windwall, back away, trade when drops, profit. Look, maybe you're terrible and as such your opponents are terrible and this works in trash tier, this doesn't work anywhere else. If there's an ability of yours yasuo is worried about he will hold windwall for that ability, he's not gonna spam windwall every time a 4 cd skillshot goes in his general direction. > You’re right, it is more than 1v1. But the point still stands. Melees do better against Yasuo. Yasuo’s top counters are melee champs because they can punish him more in trades and don’t care for his windwall. Perhaps windwall isolates from the rest of the team, but Yasuo needs to advance into the enemy team, either right into a melee, or a tank that can CC him, or he does so as the diver on your team takes out a more important target. What the hell do you think "top counters" are? They're laners who will spend the game 1v1 him, if you shit hard on him in lane you'd still be in a good spot even though your team is weaker. Outside of laning however his best counters are specifically melee champions, but champions with high reliability. That's why things like malzhar, lissandra, annie and prerework kayle are on his weak matchups, he can't reflex check their defenses/strongest abilities. > No, he doesn’t just walk up to them. Never said he did. That is, unless he doesn’t have enemy minions nearby, since his mobility is literally gated by having an enemy to dash through. Otherwise, yeah, he’s just walking up to you. Even then, a good number of ranged champs have some skill that can hit pst minions and hit him. You're forgetting that teamfights also have other champions in them, some of which are front liners that need to be in the front line, where yasuo will use them to get closer to carries. > Depends on the champ. Are they more burst? He’ll need it as he goes in. Do they have greater DPS? He’ll need it. I was talking mostly about ranged adcs, so generally he has greater dps. But here when talking about burst champions you clearly show you're aware that he will just reflex check their strongest ability invalidating them, meaning they'll have to rely on him being god awful, throwing in on a minor ability and then going in anyway. > If tanks and fighters were having such an easy time with it, we wouldn’t have all the issues with being killed too fast even when the target doesn’t have armor pen. I never said an easy time, I said they can manage it if they play right, and in metas when adcs aren't broken(which is most of the time), they can. It's just that these boards have wet dreams of bruisers being completely unstoppable, going in 1v5 sustaining damage from adcs+other damage dealers, and cc from everyone else, and killing everyone anyway. That is not good gameplay. > And yes, while that is all the case, there is an issue with point click ranged autoattacks. Just outranging them doesn’t equate to counterplay. Yes it does. If you're a skillshot based mage "outranging" thing is kinda your job. And bruisers/tanks can take the damage, they just need to take it when it needs to be taken, instead of just running 1v5 and wondering why they died and the adc didn't. >counterbuilding with armor should work yet it doesn’t always. If the adcs is fed enough then the adc is going to be a problem, if the adc is vayne(/etc), she is also notoriously problematic. >Assassins currently have to burst faster because of the nature of current adc auto attack damage. Assassins always had to burst fast because their design in league was never really thought through. If they have proper counterplay they are garbage, if they don't they are cancer. > So, wait. You say you can outplay a ranged dpser by playing cards right, but you say Yasuo’s card is unfair because it allows him to do better against ranged? His card that’s a full 4 seconds with a max 26 second CD until layegame, which allows him to stop otherwise unstoppable damage? No, the problem is he can reflex check the most powerful abilities/only defensive mechanisms of other champions: the instant cast of windwall. >Did you know Yasuo was built with battling ranged targets in mind, and that’s his only real defensive tool in order to do so? He very much was not, yasuo was built with dark souls/dmc in mind: "time your roll right and you can avoid anything", it's great PvE character design, god awful PvP character design. > It’s not just his windwall. It’s also his double crit, his mobility, his lack of resource, his free shield, his ultimate putting him outside turret range. When people hate something they start hating everything about it. His free shield is fine, lack of resources could be fine, ultimate putting him outside of turrent range also fine. The problem is insta cast windwall and nearly infinite fast dashes. > It’s funny, if it was just his windwall, he wouldn’t get as much complaints. Because Jax doesn’t get dodge complaints, Braum does get Unbreakable complaints, and yet they do the same thing *on a lower CD* too. Jax only avoids auto attack damage, let windwall only block auto attacks, see where that places you. Braum still has to eat cc, and relies on his teammates. And as I've said, it's not only his windwall, it's also his ability to dash so much. both provide him with the ability to negate too many crucial abilities of other champs via a reflex check. > Also, thanks for the insult in saying I’m stupid or “playing stupid”. This discussion will be done then It was going to be anyway. > You’re right, good counters do require playing properly instead of passing a reflex check, which is why Windwall is more fair. You don’t have to interact with it, and it requires playing properly both with it and against it. Meanwhile, to stop an ADC right click DPS, you need to have good reflexes to kill them faster. Thanks for that. Good reflexes won't kill and adcs faster, good positioning and skillshots will. > Except, I’m not the only one that says it. Many also respond in kind that ranged auto attacks are obnoxious. When the only ways to deal with something are to kill it fast, stay out of range, or die to it, that’s an issue, and one that is far more expansive than Yasuo’s Windwall, that has persisted longer than Yasuo’s existence, and is also mandatory in around 99% of games. They just aren’t all banned because there aren’t enough bans. It's just a minor insanity of the boards, it doesn't actually represent the playerbase, unlike the hate for yasuo, which is everywhere. > Thanks for showing me I should leave the discussion though. Hell if you actually got that then that's great. Definitely leave any and all discussions on the boards, this place is a shithole. I don't even care how you got that, the important thing is you did.
: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-02-22T18:01:57.484+0000) > > Why is something as obnoxious as windwall having almost no counters is a good thing? > Aoe and ranged attacks you can keep your distance from, that doesn't help against windwall. Why is something as obnoxious as ranged auto attacks having almost no counters a good thing? Oh no, two champions can stop them, whatever will we do if those champions are in a match? Windwall you can just walk away from, or bait it out, or wait until it falls and resume attacking. Melee champs have no issues with windwall. Not to mention, even if he throws it out, he still has to get in range of the ranged champ. So either he throws it out early to negate damage but then can’t deal as much damage, or he waits til he gets close but then takes all that damage in the process. But yes, I love having to stay out of range of my opponent and not being able to do anything. Totally excellent counterplay.. > Yeah no, windwall is by far more obnoxious, they're not even comparable, windwall is way worse to play against. Ha. Hahaha. You mean the thing that can be baited out and punished for improper use? Compared to damage that cannot be dodged? And is only countered by 2-5 champs (Yasuo windwall, Braum wall, Jax Counterstrike, Teemo Blind, Quinn Nearsight) and even those only partially? Yeah, ok. Windwall can be annoying, but worse is the idea that a champion can just AoE DPS with no counter other than stay out of range or burst her..like almost every other marksmen.
tl;dr at the bottom > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2019-02-22T18:25:58.711+0000) > > Why is something as obnoxious as ranged auto attacks having almost no counters a good thing? Simple: because it's not obnoxious. >Oh no, two champions can stop them, whatever will we do if those champions are in a match? You do realize certain champions getting invalidated by a very small pool of champions is a pretty big problem right? especially if those certain champions make up a pretty large pool. Not that yasuo actually counters ranged auto attackers, he's more of an issue for skillshot based champions. > Windwall you can just walk away from, or bait it out, or wait until it falls and resume attacking. Only if the yasuo player sucks balls. Windwall is instantly cast, you'd have a point if it had a delay, but it does not. Currently you need yasuo to think that you're using an ability when you're not using an ability, he needs to mess up bad. >Melee champs have no issues with windwall. This game is more than 1v1 in case you haven't noticed. yasuo can isolate those melee champs from the rest of their team, that's very much still a problem. on top of that tanks often rely on abilities that can be reflexed check via windwall, so it's really mostly bruisers who don't mind it...in 1v1 scenarios. >Not to mention, even if he throws it out, he still has to get in range of the ranged champ. So either he throws it out early to negate damage but then can’t deal as much damage, or he waits til he gets close but then takes all that damage in the process. Yasuo doesn't exactly just walks up to enemies and takes damage while slowly moving in their direction, he's one of the most mobile champions in the game. Yasuo also should easily dps a squishy, he doesn't need windwall to negate their dps first, he either uses it to cut out their teammates, or negate their cc if they try to defend themselves with it. > But yes, I love having to stay out of range of my opponent and not being able to do anything. Totally excellent counterplay.. Well tanks and bruisers can just take the damage(not ignore it, but survive long enough to do their job if they play properly), whereas ranged champions with avoidable damage outrange them, and assassins burst faster and have mobility, so yeah, there really isn't an issue with point click ranged auto attacks. > Ha. Hahaha. You mean the thing that can be baited out and punished for improper use? Compared to damage that cannot be dodged? Yes, because you can easily outplay a ranged dpser if YOU play your cards right, due to the instant cast of windwall(and his fast dashes) to beat yasuo HE has to mess up. It's why yasuo has a 70% banrate, and is consistently one of the most banned and hated champions in league, stop playing stupid. >And is only countered by 2-5 champs (Yasuo windwall, Braum wall, Jax Counterstrike, Teemo Blind, Quinn Nearsight) and even those only partially? Yeah, ok. Yeah that's because good counters require playing properly, instead of "pass a reflex check to invalidate". tl;dr : > Windwall can be annoying, but worse is the idea that a champion can just AoE DPS with no counter other than stay out of range or burst her..like almost every other marksmen. We can pretend like it's me saying yasuo is worse and you saying ranged point click is worse, but the banrates and neverending hate give a much clearer picture of what most players think: yasuo's reflex checking is far worse to play against than ranged autos.
: So, a ranged, instant, AoE attack like current Kayle has is suddenly a good thing? Why shouldn’t a ranged attack as strong as Kayle’s have some form of counter? I..honestly don’t know why people are surprised about this. Yes, his windwall is annoying, but letting a ranged AoE wave on auto attacks have no counterplay like that is equally, if not more so, ridiculous. As an aside, what the heck was the point of some of those interaction tests? Nothing was really surprising in those.
> [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-22T16:02:40.562+0000) > > So, a ranged, instant, AoE attack like current Kayle has is suddenly a good thing? Why shouldn’t a ranged attack as strong as Kayle’s have some form of counter? I..honestly don’t know why people are surprised about this. Why is something as obnoxious as windwall having almost no counters is a good thing? Aoe and ranged attacks you can keep your distance from, that doesn't help against windwall. >Yes, his windwall is annoying, but letting a ranged AoE wave on auto attacks have no counterplay like that is equally, if not more so, ridiculous. Yeah no, windwall is by far more obnoxious, they're not even comparable, windwall is way worse to play against.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kyoia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qrpqfOhE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-31T07:21:51.448+0000) > > you would too if you got to sit at a gray screen every teamfight just because an assassin exists and you can do fuck all about it. i was being sarcastic.
Should've done a better job at it then. Either add an /s, or make sure to sound meaningfully more senseless than the board's anti adc circlejerk,
: Riot has lost 700million dollars of profit loss compared to 2017
>**lost** 700million dollars of profit **loss** so they gained 700 million dollars?
: > "are they talking about iron/bronze games?" You literally mislead people by claiming iron/bronze games to be the only elo where mage sups are relavent in the OP. And the instant you are met with facts stating that other elos besides the rock bottom ones also have the issue you run and pretend that Master+ was all you meant. Congratz, a tiny fraction of the community aren't spamming mage sups... I guess there's nothing to worry about.
> [{quoted}](name=Bronze GOAT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=87hQwqzA,comment-id=00000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T14:23:30.018+0000) > > You literally mislead people by claiming iron/bronze games to be the only elo where mage sups are relavent in the OP. And the instant you are met with facts stating that other elos besides the rock bottom ones also have the issue you run and pretend that Master+ was all you meant. Congratz, a tiny fraction of the community aren't spamming mage sups... I guess there's nothing to worry about. balancing around silver winrates is like claiming clubs are superior to rifles because if you arm chimps with them the club will have a higher winrate.
: Unfortunately, that's because they were made and buffed/nerfed around mid lane, not support. So they have high damage/scaling in their kit and normal-ish damage scaling naturally, and will always outscale your enchanter support because Riot keeps nerfing their stats. Trust me, you think playing against them as an adc is tough? Try being the support that's trying to keep the adc alive.
>Unfortunately, that's because they were made and buffed/nerfed around mid lane, not support. I still remember when rioters behind the zyra rework blatantly stated she's going to be balanced around support, not mid, and that was years ago.
Vekkna (NA)
: >She has a concious and a mind filled with memories. Feel/recall emotions such as agony and rage. She has self-concept since she gave a name to herself and tries to understand other creatures(eve though those trials only result in her being trigerred). She isnt mindless nor pure instinct. See, I read those quotes to mean that Zyra's corporeal body is instinctual in an infantile/animal sort of way, but her mind is aware that she had some kind of prior life. The main questions here are 1) whether Zyra's old form had a consciousness, and 2) whether the sorceress's consciousness is manifested in Zyra versus being a Firestorm-style mashup or simply an imprint/overlay of memories. Those quotes sound like a little kid learning through experience with a few holdover memories from a reincarnation. But that doesn't tell us much (or anything) about identity, personality, or higher-level thinking (like self-assessment, ethics, values, etc). So, in the context of the story as it is, I wanted to see something that explored these questions: >Its mind was a puzzle of conflicting memories This is an identity crisis. So wtf are the identities, why are they in conflict, and what are the stakes for one identity winning out over the other? >without quite understanding why She's obviously experiencing reincarnated memories, but is she aware that she was reincarnated? Does she understand what happened to her at all? Like, a person IRL can have amnesia and understand that they have amnesia, know what amnesia is, and know that amnesia is the reason for missing memories. Is that consciousness present in Zyra or is she like a toddler. >Zyra knew she was different from other creatures she encountered This one has me the most curious. How does she know that she's different, and in what ways? Most importantly, how does this sense of differentness affect her? >Mortals were fearful and unpleasant things, while more ethereal entities tended to be capricious, or arrogant. None of them seemed to respect the realms they inhabited, despoiling everything with their mere presence, and that filled Zyra with rage and contempt. What is the basis for Zyra's judgment here? If her consciousness is rudimentary, she's making these judgments based on instinct or reflex. But Zyra is making value judgments about other beings' feelings, behaviors, and outcomes. That suggests a motivating ideology or ethical code by which Zyra judges others, but we have no clue what that is. Zyra hates mortals for disrespecting and despoiling realms with their mere presence. You have to question Zyra's self-awareness and capacity for higher thought when *she is literally doing this exact thing!* Moreover, when Zyra describes her "differences" with mortals and etherials, that suggests that Zyra sees herself as fearless, pleasant, decisive, humble, and respectful. The possible explanations here are: 1) Zyra has multiple personalities and an amazing sense of irony, 2) Zyra has no self-awareness and very little intelligence, or 3) Zyra is a delusional, self-aggrandizing hypocrite. I think a lore blurb ought to at least tell us a bare minimum about who this character is. Right now it looks like #2 is most likely, and I seriously resent that. #3 is a boring trope, and I hoped for better. #1 would be fucking awesome, but there's no good reason to think that's actually happening here.
> [{quoted}](name=Vekkna,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=QWgT1jvE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-10T19:51:11.548+0000) > > The possible explanations here are: 1) Zyra has multiple personalities and an amazing sense of irony, 2) Zyra has no self-awareness and very little intelligence, or 3) Zyra is a delusional, self-aggrandizing hypocrite. or 4) the guy who wrote the bio just got to work with a huge hangover after partying till 4 am the night before, and went "shit I have to write something edgy and have only a couple of hours to do it". Imo you're reading too much into it, the guy who wrote it probably went "so I want to rip off that green lady from batman but not in too obvious of a manner, and the sooner I'm done with this crap, the better"
Kaisha (NA)
: Have you actually played anything but DOTA/LOL or one of their thousand clones?
> [{quoted}](name=Kaisha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M1hEYha9,comment-id=000a0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-10T01:49:06.950+0000) > > Have you actually played anything but DOTA/LOL or one of their thousand clones? Obviously, unless you define every game out there as a dota/lol clone.
Kaisha (NA)
: There's more to MOBAs than just last-hitting minions. If you played the original ones you would see there a plenty of things to do apart from that. If you ever played, say, Tides Of Blood, that one was pretty amazing (LOL also copied about 1/2 their roster: bloodmage = vlad, redbull = ali, pirate = gangplank, etc...). The stand around last-hitting was pretty much a DOTA thing, because the DOTA players were just crappy. Anyone who was good at WC3/TFT was playing ranked at the time. DOTA was popular with players who couldn't handle 3 heros + army and needed an AI to help them. The massive item scaling was necessary because requiring actual skill/strategy/teamwork was too much for the average DOTA player to handle. LOL added jungling (which technically DOTA had but it was a mess) which added a lot of depth and teamwork that didn't exist, and in the early seasons the items weren't as crazy as their DOTA counterparts (though power creep has worked in over the seasons...). But last-hitting minions is certainly not a necessity to make a good MOBA. Its a crutch IMO.
> [{quoted}](name=Kaisha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M1hEYha9,comment-id=000a00000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-08T23:55:30.352+0000) > > There's more to MOBAs than just last-hitting minions. If you played the original ones you would see there a plenty of things to do apart from that. If you ever played, say, Tides Of Blood, that one was pretty amazing (LOL also copied about 1/2 their roster: bloodmage = vlad, redbull = ali, pirate = gangplank, etc...). I mean let's be serious, the concepts of a bloodmage, a minotaur, or a bloody pirate aren't really unique in their own right. They didn't really copy them anymore than probably thousands of other games at this point copied them. > > The stand around last-hitting was pretty much a DOTA thing, because the DOTA players were just crappy. Anyone who was good at WC3/TFT was playing ranked at the time. DOTA was popular with players who couldn't handle 3 heros + army and needed an AI to help them. The massive item scaling was necessary because requiring actual skill/strategy/teamwork was too much for the average DOTA player to handle. I don't see what item scaling has to do with this. I could see the DOTA players as being more casual than those that played ranked, but what does that have to do with item scalings? > LOL added jungling (which technically DOTA had but it was a mess) which added a lot of depth and teamwork that didn't exist, and in the early seasons the items weren't as crazy as their DOTA counterparts (though power creep has worked in over the seasons...). I'm really not sure what power creep is even meant to say in that sentence. Original powercreep was/is a case where older releases are being invalidated by newer ones, are you saying new items are invalidating older ones? Are you saying that items carry too much weight and define the champions too much? > But last-hitting minions is certainly not a necessity to make a good MOBA. Its a crutch IMO. It's not necessary, but it's one way, I wouldn't call it a crutch either, as I don't see any novel approach clearly outshining it.
Kaisha (NA)
: I don't disagree... I didn't like the ward wars. I always liked support because I could focus more on the opposing team than last hitting minions (one of the stupidest mechanics around IMO). But supports are useless now. AP supports do no dmg, even the heavy harassers like Zyra, Vel, or Brand might do a bit of dmg in lane, but lifesteal and runes now mean a single wave and any carry can top themselves up no problem. Tank supports are limited pretty much to Ali now, anyone else (Naut, Tahm, etc...) are so stupid squishy they evaporate instantly. Sure pyke is around but he's just stupid OP. Blitz is weaksauce now, landing a grip now means instadeath for you, not the opponent; his wombo combo is now a tickle combo. Healing supports can't stand up to the burst. Soraka is a joke, sona went from OP pretty much S1-S4 (when I stopped playing till recently) to a free kill (I saw her once the entire two weeks I reinstalled). But what was by far the most disheartening was that no matter how well I played, my contributions didn't have any tangible effect on the game outcome. Time after time we'd own bottom lane, be 2-3 kills up, and top or mid would feed an assasin 2-3 kills, and then Yasuo, or Yi, or Zed, or Akali, or Talon would then start running around just deleteing people and that was it. It didn't matter how many skill shots I landed, how much CC I provided, there was no counter to a fed assassin/hypercarry. And where-as previously (S1-S4) you had to get around 5+ kills ahead to be 'fed', now 2-3 was sufficient. 1 bad jungle gank and it was game over 6min in, no matter how well I played. They could remove support from the game, just make Summoners Rift 4v4, and no one would notice a difference. They bring nothing unique, interesting, or useful to the game anymore.
> [{quoted}](name=Kaisha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M1hEYha9,comment-id=000a000000010000,timestamp=2018-11-08T19:41:37.327+0000) > > I don't disagree... I didn't like the ward wars. I don't think anyone really did, it's just nostalgia goggles at this point(well that and people who just enjoy complaining). >I always liked support because I could focus more on the opposing team than last hitting minions (one of the stupidest mechanics around IMO). I'm not sure why you find it stupid, it's an objective, otherwise people would just sit around dragon the entire early game then afk till it respawns, and then move from dragon to baron. > But supports are useless now. AP supports do no dmg, even the heavy harassers like Zyra, Vel, or Brand might do a bit of dmg in lane, but lifesteal and runes now mean a single wave and any carry can top themselves up no problem. Tank supports are limited pretty much to Ali now, anyone else (Naut, Tahm, etc...) are so stupid squishy they evaporate instantly. Sure pyke is around but he's just stupid OP. Blitz is weaksauce now, landing a grip now means instadeath for you, not the opponent; his wombo combo is now a tickle combo. Healing supports can't stand up to the burst. Soraka is a joke, sona went from OP pretty much S1-S4 (when I stopped playing till recently) to a free kill (I saw her once the entire two weeks I reinstalled). > > But what was by far the most disheartening was that no matter how well I played, my contributions didn't have any tangible effect on the game outcome. Time after time we'd own bottom lane, be 2-3 kills up, and top or mid would feed an assasin 2-3 kills, and then Yasuo, or Yi, or Zed, or Akali, or Talon would then start running around just deleteing people and that was it. It didn't matter how many skill shots I landed, how much CC I provided, there was no counter to a fed assassin/hypercarry. And where-as previously (S1-S4) you had to get around 5+ kills ahead to be 'fed', now 2-3 was sufficient. 1 bad jungle gank and it was game over 6min in, no matter how well I played. > > They could remove support from the game, just make Summoners Rift 4v4, and no one would notice a difference. They bring nothing unique, interesting, or useful to the game anymore. I wouldn't know, I stopped playing when I realized they are making the game more and more reflex based, shoving obnoxious amounts of mobility/invulnerability senselessly.
Kaisha (NA)
: Except that support was never given another job. They're just there... filling up space. With items being stupid OP you'll never supply the dps, healing, or tanking, needed to make any difference in the outcome of the game. CC is pretty much the only thing you bring, and because you have to be exceptionally cautious (cause any carry can delete you simply by looking at you funny) even that take tremendous skill to land.
> [{quoted}](name=Kaisha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M1hEYha9,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-11-08T18:47:21.781+0000) > > Except that support was never given another job. They're just there... filling up space. Well, all of the roles sorta do that. I do somewhat agree with your point, supports used to have something which really was meaningfully unique to them(the ward wars) and now they mostly alternate between a watered-down mid laner or a watered-down jungler. Mind you the ward wars were exceptionally shallow and mostly snowball based if the teams were any good, and possibly even worse if they weren't. Removing them did more good than harm.
: I mean, it isn't really a bug, since Jayce essentially did 0 damage to yasuo. Even though he attacked yasuo, all he did, was proc the shield, which the tower would've ignored. The only case I could see for this being a bug is the cc not causing jayce to get the kill. Jayce essentially made his tower have to do more damage to kill yasuo
> [{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=o970kqUi,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-10-08T19:01:02.739+0000) > > The only case I could see for this being a bug is the cc not causing jayce to get the kill. Things like blitz's hook(and a bunch of other crap I forgot about, I haven't messed with this in years, I think janna's tornado also works this way) will still grant a kill/assist even if they don't break a shield and no other damage/effects are applied. Zyra's second ult proc(unless it was changed), also won't grant an assist/kill, even though it's damageless cc. It very much is a bug but it's not yasuo specific, and applies to all shields. Also I forgot how damage/cc interacts with morgana's shield, but I'm fairly sure it was stupid and incosistent as well. Anyway, applied cc not giving an assist/kill is definitely inconsistent, and considering the changes made(making more abilities give assists), this is the exception and not the rule. So a bug.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EA4O08f7,comment-id=000200050000000000000001,timestamp=2018-05-21T09:31:09.995+0000) > > To be fair that's how the argument goes no matter who makes it, at least most of the time. You focus on the strengths generally exaggerating to make a point(can we stop spamming "hyperbole" everywhere, it's a standard rhetoric. If it's an obvious exaggeration then it's not meant to be taken literally), and you ignore or downplay the weaknesses(implying they're not enough) once again to make a point. Indeed. > It doesn't make the author stupid/bad/wrong, people need to stop shouting "hyperbole" and understand what those posts are. 99% of the time the guy isn't trying to come up with some hidden op champ nobody is aware of, and is trying to remind people of things they supposedly already know. But that isn't how discussion should be, and that isn't how one argues if a champion is too strong or not, and that is the problem. > I think the biggest problem with knowledgeable silvers/etc is attitude. Those with the right attitude who can learn will also be aware of their flaws and feel self conscious about posting their opinion. The arrogant ones who don't know jack shit won't have that problem though. And out of those two, guess which one is the one that will actually improve.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EA4O08f7,comment-id=0002000500000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-21T09:50:51.749+0000) > > But that isn't how discussion should be, and that isn't how one argues if a champion is too strong or not, and that is the problem. Well... League isn't exactly an accurate science. This is actually somewhat of a legitimate way to hold a discussion, but it relies on both people knowing what they're talking about and willing to shift their opinion when they see that theirs isn't so common. High elo logic is often based on consensus(in a sense), good players are awfully inclined to think the same way, they also actually respect the competitive scene. There's also the fact that they are less inclined to think they are knowledgeable about things they aren't. So for example a top lane main who rarely plays support just won't argue back against a support main, even if he feels something is off. Low elos are a swagfest though, a bronze top lane only player won't hesitate to "correct" a diamond jungle main, even if he never plays jungle at all.("LOL x isn't bad, have you seen his winrate?" ring any bells?) But ultimately look at this thread, who do you think upvoted it? I'm not exactly sure what you want a proper discussion to look like, but regardless I think we can agree that it simply cannot be held on the boards(unless maybe a lot of luck or very prominent figures(so even the bronze swaglords will respect them) are present). So the regular "use exaggerations to make a point" rhetoric seems to be the most sensible approach.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Nubulas,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EA4O08f7,comment-id=0002000500000000,timestamp=2018-05-21T08:07:55.894+0000) > > "List strengths of champion while blowing them out of portion, act as if they have no weaknesses, complain about them being strong into matches" > > That is exactly what you are saying. > > Anyone who ever complains about a champ being OP or unbalanced is wrong. No, what I said is that they blow their powers WAY out of portions and act like said champions have no weaknesses. Even champions when they are broken or strong have weakness. Right now, one of the highest win rate champions in the game right now is Garen, a bronze or silver player would likely say things like "Oh, you can't escape Garen, you can't kite him, he does too much damage." while playing a non mobile melee champion that didn't buy any armor. Any argument you give them will be refuted normally by them saying "Oh, you just main him." or my favorite remark. "I shouldn't have to do things differently to beat him." Obviously Garen does have real inhernet weaknesses and flaws, but a bronze or silver player that QQs about him will act like he doesn't, blow the power of his kit out of propotion and complain about the match up without fail. Is that to say that they can't be right, or that pros can be wrong about balance, god no. My point is that when you try to give a counterargument about why they might be wrong, it is the stupidest reasons about why what they said can't be a thing apparently and that they aren't the ones at fault, shouldn't have to try new things and that the champion is OP, period, even if they might be balanced or shit.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EA4O08f7,comment-id=00020005000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-21T08:18:23.002+0000) > > No, what I said is that they blow their powers WAY out of portions and act like said champions have no weaknesses. Even champions when they are broken or strong have weakness. To be fair that's how the argument goes no matter who makes it, at least most of the time. You focus on the strengths generally exaggerating to make a point(can we stop spamming "hyperbole" everywhere, it's a standard rhetoric. If it's an obvious exaggeration then it's not meant to be taken literally), and you ignore or downplay the weaknesses(implying they're not enough) once again to make a point. It doesn't make the author stupid/bad/wrong, people need to stop shouting "hyperbole" and understand what those posts are. 99% of the time the guy isn't trying to come up with some hidden op champ nobody is aware of, and is trying to remind people of things they supposedly already know. Anyway I'd say there's two things which generally separate a knowledgeable response from a guy who has no idea what he's talking about: 1) Focus on winrates, the higher the focus the lesser the knowledge.(*) 2) Lack of attention to little details. Often a strength(or weakness) of a champion expresses itself in very specific ways, such as a very weak level 1 for example. Or a combination of two weaknesses which are minor on their own but overbearing combined. Less knowledgeable players can't appreciate/notice either so they just ignore them. (*) If a recent change/release/rework caused a massive winrate it can sorta be a legitimate argument, the problem is pretty much everyone will be aware at that point anyway. There are some rules of thumb regarding new releases and winrates, but those things will get cleared up soon enough anyway. I think the biggest problem with knowledgeable silvers/etc is attitude. Those with the right attitude who can learn will also be aware of their flaws and feel self conscious about posting their opinion. The arrogant ones who don't know jack shit won't have that problem though.
: Hit Master on my main account 2 weeks ago. Here's what I've learned.
> You know statistics? Throw those out the window. I like how you open with it, also the fact that you somehow manage to not get downvoted after committing such a heinous crime against the winrate gods(I suppose the master ranks protects you). I can definitely relate to that statement, as it must be the most stupid of the common beliefs in these boards. >Lastly, honestly when I first got on GD years ago I thought, "Wow these people are so smart and articulate." You're talking about the old forums I suppose(they were okay I guess)? Hopefully not the current boards. This is by far the most deluded noob worshiping community I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with.
: Over 300 book pages, 145 Word pages and more than 290 bugs: Here is the new Mordekaiser buglist.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Me opting to choose none has nothing to do with the team. My role pick and my gameplay does. I dont have the time nor the cares to bother figuring out what my team wants me to ban. Half the time its some FotM, and not worth my time. If you cant be bothered to learn how to play against an fotm, i cant be bothered to ban it. Hell, Zoe had a high ban rate, but was never good, upon release.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uJoQ9oV1,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-03-26T15:24:15.397+0000) > > and not worth my time. Good point.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Given 5 bans with the option to not use. My ban is my ban, if i opt not to use it i opt not to use it. I dont "need" to use it for anyone, its useable at my sole discretion, not yours. Try and tell me otherwise just leads to a mute.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uJoQ9oV1,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-26T02:43:17.518+0000) > > Given 5 bans with the option to not use. My ban is my ban, if i opt not to use it i opt not to use it. I dont "need" to use it for anyone, its useable at my sole discretion, not yours. Try and tell me otherwise just leads to a mute. This is also a team game, and if you're as much a team player as a 6 year old("this is muh toy, I don't care that I never play it anymore, nobody else should play it. THIS IS MUH TOY"), then what the fuck are you doing here? I mean if you're not willing to give your teammates something which is of absolutely no use to you, that's not even a bad or a terrible teammate, that's downright a god awful teammate, why play a team game then?(serious question)
: In all honesty it's quite astonishing that Lulu still has a point and click ranged hard CC ability
: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=00010000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T00:32:32.039+0000) > > Here's the thing, you could say that on a lot of things, how about the champions you've bought, did you make good use of them?("I'm guessing yes") Would you regret their purchase if they were refunded for 20% of their costs cause reasons?(I'm guessing no) Would you be fine if such a thing happened?(I'm guessing no) "Good use" varies for me wildly Champion to Champion. I've gotten *excellent* use out of a few (hundreds of games on Ziggs, Xerath, and Ezreal), while others I've gotten maybe 2 normal and a few ARAM games (Elise being one of them, and I got her for 6300 when I was new because I thought she looked cool, never really got the hang of her). I'd be fine with them all being discounted to 20% for new purchases, with the only exception being if I'd recently bought a champion in the past month or so. But that's the exact same scenario as what we have here, with the people making the most recent purchases getting full refunds on those purchases. > Here's the thing though: Ip isn't tradeable. > Assuming riot doesn't do the asinine thing(I doubt that), the people who are gonna be swimming in IP are the people who are already swimming in it, yet for some reason riot decided that with the changes this needs to stop, their IP needs to be taken away in order to encourage them to buy things. Then when they give back some minor fraction of the IP spent on these things were supposed to be thankful? > > I mean there's also a point to be made that about 90% of the ip I've spent has been on trying to work around stupid decisions made by riot, be it throwing IP into runes to be able to compete, or buy champions I have no intention to play so I could trade them(pick order is actually very important), and I would be very bitter if something was buyable with IP that I now don't have because I spent it on this crap, but the fact riot is tossing away IP thrown into an IP sink which I was pressured to invest in by them is just obnoxious. IP isn't tradable, but it still effects what everyone can purchase. There's only been one Champion I've purchased with RP, and that was Xerath. I've certainly gotten my use out of him, but the purchase was made because I wanted to play him on an impulse with friends and I didn't have the IP to snag him. Stuff like that is how Riot makes money, it's a good chunk of their business model. Few enough people buy Champions with RP, can you imagine how that number would dwindle if everyone was swimming in IP? To your trading point, how often it comes up varies player to player and rank to rank. I had someone ask me to trade Champions the other day for the first time in probably 50 or 100 games. I had to turn it down because I don't own Annie. At points in time I've owned a higher percentage of 6300 Champions than 480 champions, only grabbing 3 of the 480's recently so I could trade friends their mains on ARAMs.
> [{quoted}](name=DrCyanide,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=000100000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T01:00:53.689+0000) > > "Good use" varies for me wildly Champion to Champion. I've gotten *excellent* use out of a few (hundreds of games on Ziggs, Xerath, and Ezreal), while others I've gotten maybe 2 normal and a few ARAM games (Elise being one of them, and I got her for 6300 when I was new because I thought she looked cool, never really got the hang of her). > > I'd be fine with them all being discounted to 20% for new purchases, with the only exception being if I'd recently bought a champion in the past month or so. But that's the exact same scenario as what we have here, with the people making the most recent purchases getting full refunds on those purchases. I didn't say they'd be discounted for to 20% of current price, I said refunded for 20% because you've gotten your use out of them.(this seems similar but really isn't quite so) > IP isn't tradable, but it still effects what everyone can purchase. There's only been one Champion I've purchased with RP, and that was Xerath. I've certainly gotten my use out of him, but the purchase was made because I wanted to play him on an impulse with friends and I didn't have the IP to snag him. Stuff like that is how Riot makes money, it's a good chunk of their business model. Few enough people buy Champions with RP, can you imagine how that number would dwindle if everyone was swimming in IP? I think you're confusing others with yourself, people have different spending patterns. Here's the thing though, what are the chances you'd spend rp to buy a new champ if they give full refunds? Now what are the chances you'd do so if they give you the current refund? Now what is the net profit between the two approaches? I'm guessing something smaller than 0.1$(for me it's 0.00$, The likelihood of me being hyped for a champion and lacking the IP is just not there), now what about the bad publicity/grude they'd gain for people with similar spending attitude(like me), but different attitude(like me)? I'm not even sure we're the ones targeted with this change, I'm guessing if we got full refunds we'd just throw them into a different IP sink and our rp spending habits will remain the same. I'd suspect they mostly aim at people who've played the game long enough to be pressured into wasting a solid chunk of ip on runes, but didn't get enough for all of the things they want just yet, they'd lose business by giving them back the IP they pressured them to waste. > To your trading point, how often it comes up varies player to player and rank to rank. I had someone ask me to trade Champions the other day for the first time in probably 50 or 100 games. I had to turn it down because I don't own Annie. At points in time I've owned a higher percentage of 6300 Champions than 480 champions, only grabbing 3 of the 480's recently so I could trade friends their mains on ARAMs. It's doesn't really vary with rank(aside from like maybe masters or something), trading is extremely rare in the majority of levels of play, but it's a moronic loop, I'm really annoyed with the way they're treating it for various different reasons.
: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=000100000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-05T20:15:12.235+0000) > > No, the core of the game is good, but without IP the money I'd have to invest to play it would turn it bad. > > Also I love how you ignored the part where I said: "and I'm betting that neither would you." > So tell me, would you enjoy this game if it had no ip gains and everything had to be bought? Ah, language barrier was the confusion. It depends. I bought Overwatch outright, and it adds new Champions over time. I also bought most of the games I played prior to League. Micro transactions for characters wouldn't have worked though, no. > You forget that not all runes were either bought 7 years ago or one year ago, most were bought it between. > There's definitely plenty of runes I wouldn't have bought at all if I was given this notice, and the closer the deadline the more bitter I would be about buying those I felt like I had to buy. > This would definitely make people even more frustrated with buying runes...I wonder why... > Maybe it is unfair after all? I was buying odd ball Runes last year. I bought Crit Damage Runes last year after Jhin was released just to mess around with them on a Champion with a guaranteed Crit. I also did a similar thing with a ton of flat CDR Runes and Nasus so I could get stacks earlier. It was fun, I got my use out of them, and I'd do it again given the chance. No, I don't own every Champion, but I had fun messing around and using those Runes. > Value does change over time, but runes were such a system that they barely did so. > I'm not asking for refunds based on what the runes were bought at, I'm asking for refunds based on what runes were worth before preperations for the new system started to come into place, so a month ago more or less. That... would be a very tricky thing to decide. Not saying you're wrong, you very well may be onto something, just that it would be tricky. Would you base the refund on how often that player used those Runes or by how meta they were? > While my choice of words on that part wasn't perfect(or punctuation?), as the rest of the context may imply it means: fucking over people who invested in runes isn't something you need to do in order to make the new system happen. Not for the new Runes system, no, but Riot does need to keep the IP/BE from flooding the economy after the change. That refund wouldn't exist in a vacuum.
> [{quoted}](name=DrCyanide,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-05T22:36:23.735+0000) > > It depends. I bought Overwatch outright, and it adds new Champions over time. I also bought most of the games I played prior to League. Micro transactions for characters wouldn't have worked though, no. I on the other have never played overwatch, due to a combination of the initial price+infamous blizzard healers, I'd try it in one of the free weeks but I keep missing them. > I was buying odd ball Runes last year. I bought Crit Damage Runes last year after Jhin was released just to mess around with them on a Champion with a guaranteed Crit. I also did a similar thing with a ton of flat CDR Runes and Nasus so I could get stacks earlier. It was fun, I got my use out of them, and I'd do it again given the chance. No, I don't own every Champion, but I had fun messing around and using those Runes. Here's the thing, you could say that on a lot of things, how about the champions you've bought, did you make good use of them?("I'm guessing yes") Would you regret their purchase if they were refunded for 20% of their costs cause reasons?(I'm guessing no) Would you be fine if such a thing happened?(I'm guessing no) > That... would be a very tricky thing to decide. Not saying you're wrong, you very well may be onto something, just that it would be tricky. Would you base the refund on how often that player used those Runes or by how meta they were? Their cost before this whole mess started. > Not for the new Runes system, no, but Riot does need to keep the IP/BE from flooding the economy after the change. That refund wouldn't exist in a vacuum. Here's the thing though: Ip isn't tradeable. Assuming riot doesn't do the asinine thing(I doubt that), the people who are gonna be swimming in IP are the people who are already swimming in it, yet for some reason riot decided that with the changes this needs to stop, their IP needs to be taken away in order to encourage them to buy things. Then when they give back some minor fraction of the IP spent on these things were supposed to be thankful? I mean there's also a point to be made that about 90% of the ip I've spent has been on trying to work around stupid decisions made by riot, be it throwing IP into runes to be able to compete, or buy champions I have no intention to play so I could trade them(pick order is actually very important), and I would be very bitter if something was buyable with IP that I now don't have because I spent it on this crap, but the fact riot is tossing away IP thrown into an IP sink which I was pressured to invest in by them is just obnoxious.
: its almost like ip spent on something that was needed to play the game and we where told they where gonna be permanent is being taken away and getting less than 20% back same moronic argument defending riots terrible decisions ive actually lost hope for these boards if they allow people like you to post just to act like we are scum for wanting compensation and riot are gods
> [{quoted}](name=UnboundHades,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2017-09-05T21:18:10.877+0000) > > ive actually lost hope for these boards You're new here, aren't you?
: I'm really glad to see this post, because a lot of other boards posts have been a sort of mishmash of feedback about all the other changes (rewards/leveling) and this is a great opportunity for us to focus specifically on the rune rewards. OP has a fair question here, and it's basically this: **We're giving rewards to players for buying runes in the past, but it's not a FULL refund for all runes purchased since the beginning. Why?** While we're not intending to change the reward amounts that we've already announced, I do think we owe you guys a serious explanation, so here it is: To understand this you have to understand our business model. We use the money we get from sellings things to make the game better. Giving away IP means we make less money, because it cuts into future sales of champs for RP (and that's a big part of the business model for our game). It's how we get money to reinvest in the game with new features that make the game better for everyone. So what we're doing with the rune rewards is giving up a portion of our revenue. Why, then, are we giving back some blue essence for each tier three rune you ever bought? Why not give _nothing_ in exchange for runes, if it hurts revenue? The answer is that we understand that it feels bad to have something you paid for suddenly become free for other people. Given the broader context of how positive the upcoming runes changes are for the game, we think that giving a little something back is the right thing to do for players and for the long-term health of the game. The goal with the rewards we've announced is to recognize the time you’ve spent getting Runes and reward you fairly for it, without going overboard and hurting ourselves financially. That's the most straight and honest answer I can give you.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=x6n9Mb05,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-09-05T20:12:55.211+0000) > > That's the most straight and honest answer I can give you. I find this the most interesting part about that post, is this a cry for help of sorts? Blink twice if Riot is holding you hostage. We've earned that ip fair and square, some of us decided to invest more into champions, some of us on name changes, some of us on runes, why is it that if player A and player B had the same amount of ip, but player A invested more into champs whereas player B invested more into runes, then player A now just ends up with more content? Hell as far as balancing was handled runes were expected to be more stable, and now they're made worthless? Besides rune purchases were done for a couple of reasons, the most notable of which would be because we felt like we needed them to compete, the second was to gain a stat advantage/optimization over our opponents, the former is obnoxious to throw into the garbage bin and the latter is lost with the changes. All I can see in your post is "We've realized that by throwing some of your hard earned ip in the trash can we can increase profits from you guys, but to reduce backlash we are only throwing 80% of it, aren't we great?". I mean I don't think anyone here denies the fact that by backstabbing the right people in the right place at the right time you can increase profits, we're just concerned about the "stabbing people in the back" part. I'm also assuming that's why newer players who bought runes in 2017 get full refunds? Wouldn't want to betray them before they get a bit more invested would we?
: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-05T19:12:35.676+0000) > > Nice strawman, I never said anything of the sort. > > Nope. > > ***Me liking the game has very deep ties with me being able to earn ip, I wouldn't like the game if I wasn't awarded with in game currency for playing it***, and I'm betting that neither would you. ... You just contradicted yourself, again implying that you primarily enjoyed being given points per game. So much for a strawman argument. > Except that far as I can remember, there was no guarantee of refund up until the last statement. > But either way, ever stopped to ask yourself why they are getting refunded? If losing most of the ip spent on runes is fair why wouldn't these people want to buy them then? > Hmm... If I didn't know any better, I'd guess it was because it is in fact unfair... how strange... That one's been answered and is quite obvious, it comes down to time spent using them. If they told us back in Season 1 Runes would expire 7 years down the road you'd still buy Runes because they'd help you for the next several years. If you were told they'd expire in a single year, you'd probably decide to do something different and just tough it out. > Yes, because they made them plummet, what's your point? My point was that the value does change with time, and that value is relative to what the players think it's worth in the same. Prices for some Runes have fallen, and other Runes were deemed worthless before the update despite their price tag. > Look, lets make something clear, the extent of ip refund for runes(if any), and the new runes system have absolutely no dependance on each other, you don't have to fuck over ***people who invested in runes to make the new system happen***, you can give them 10/20/30/50/70/100/500% refund and it won't change the new system, stop making it as if it's one or the other, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I was only pointing out that people were supposedly fine enough with throwing away IP for years to not complain enough about it. Don't pretend you "invested" in the old Runes to make the new Runes happen, you did it for yourself. You didn't throw IP at some New Runes Kickstarter.
> [{quoted}](name=DrCyanide,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=00010000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-05T19:57:18.110+0000) > > ... You just contradicted yourself, again implying that you primarily enjoyed being given points per game. So much for a strawman argument. No, the core of the game is good, but without IP the money I'd have to invest to play it would turn it bad. Also I love how you ignored the part where I said: "and I'm betting that neither would you." So tell me, would you enjoy this game if it had no ip gains and everything had to be bought? > That one's been answered and is quite obvious, it comes down to time spent using them. If they told us back in Season 1 Runes would expire 7 years down the road you'd still buy Runes because they'd help you for the next several years. If you were told they'd expire in a single year, you'd probably decide to do something different and just tough it out. You forget that not all runes were either bought 7 years ago or one year ago, most were bought it between. There's definitely plenty of runes I wouldn't have bought at all if I was given this notice, and the closer the deadline the more bitter I would be about buying those I felt like I had to buy. This would definitely make people even more frustrated with buying runes...I wonder why... Maybe it is unfair after all? > My point was that the value does change with time, and that value is relative to what the players think it's worth in the same. Prices for some Runes have fallen, and other Runes were deemed worthless before the update despite their price tag. Value does change over time, but runes were such a system that they barely did so. I'm not asking for refunds based on what the runes were bought at, I'm asking for refunds based on what runes were worth before preperations for the new system started to come into place, so a month ago more or less. > I was only pointing out that people were supposedly fine enough with throwing away IP for years to not complain enough about it. Don't pretend you "invested" in the old Runes to make the new Runes happen, you did it for yourself. You didn't throw IP at some New Runes Kickstarter. While my choice of words on that part wasn't perfect(or punctuation?), as the rest of the context may imply it means: fucking over people who invested in runes isn't something you need to do in order to make the new system happen.
Spârky (NA)
: Just an outside opinion but from what i have read he is approaching this from a reasonable perspective. Customer loyalty and good faith. Look around do you see other companies caring as much about their player base as riot do? All this guy is saying is riot doesn't owe you guys anything. You guys CHOSE to play the game. Is it nice to reward the veteran players for their time and loyalty and contribution to the game yes it is and they are doing that. They have even said they would like to do more for the veteran players but if they gave you more BE for example for your runes they would be losing a lot more money. Riot already makes lots of money from the IP system because people buy ip boosts, or champions because they don't have as much ip to buy the champion. So riot making runes free is already a lot of money that they are losing add the BE they are giving everyone which people will use to buy champions which guess what is also how riot makes money they are sacrificing so much to give the BE reward on top of the free runes. So for all of you complaining about "customer loyalty and good faith" riot is taking a pretty decently sized (bigger than what most people think it is) cut from the amount of money they earn. That is what I call customer loyalty. Sacrificing your profit so that your community can be happy.
> [{quoted}](name=PG Sparky,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=000100000000000000000002,timestamp=2017-09-05T19:02:22.562+0000) > > Just an outside opinion but from what i have read he is approaching this from a reasonable perspective. I'm just gonna point out before even reading anything that I HIGHLY doubt that this is actually an "outside opinion" >Customer loyalty and good faith. Look around do you see other companies caring as much about their player base as riot do? Sure? I mean I'm not denying there's a decent amount of companies that just backstab people in the most blatant of ways(I've never bought no man's sky but I've heard "great" things), but I really am not particularly impressed with riot, I mean aside from some of my sketchier theories(which paint them as somewhat obnoxious) they are mostly just decent, granted that's above average due to the many shady companies which are now in existence, but still. >All this guy is saying is riot doesn't owe you guys anything. You guys CHOSE to play the game. You realize you can more or less ALWAYS SAY THIS? Even for no man's sky(the lawsuit failed), this statement means absolute jackshit, and frankly something needs to be wrong with the guy stating it to state it. >Is it nice to reward the veteran players for their time and loyalty and contribution to the game yes it is and they are doing that. I'm not talking about any rewards, I'm talking about the in game currency we were pressured to throw into a sink to not be thrown away, not for any rewards. >They have even said they would like to do more for the veteran players but if they gave you more BE for example for your runes they would be losing a lot more money. Look, I'm perfectly aware of the cactopus's statement that if you don't backstab people in the right place at the right time you'll get less money, I'm not denying that by shredding people's earned in game currency they can increase their profits. I never questioned that. What I am saying is that when you backstab older players to get more money part of that is backstabbing players, which I oppose. >Riot already makes lots of money from the IP system because people buy ip boosts, or champions because they don't have as much ip to buy the champion. And you don't see a problem with people spending rp to buy ip boosts in order to buy runes only for it to be thrown into the garbage bin? >So riot making runes free is already a lot of money that they are losing add the BE they are giving everyone which people will use to buy champions which guess what is also how riot makes money they are sacrificing so much to give the BE reward on top of the free runes. Look, you need to remember that the veteran players aren't the entire playerbase, and that their new system is aimed at new players as well, perhaps more than anyone else, I am certain that they have plans to give people things to do with BE and that new players won't be earning things in the newer system faster than in the older system. It's an improvement on how the system works, not on the rate you own things in game. >So for all of you complaining about "customer loyalty and good faith" riot is taking a pretty decently sized (bigger than what most people think it is) cut from the amount of money they earn. That is what I call customer loyalty. Sacrificing your profit so that your community can be happy. No, they don't, and you're an absolute tool if you actually believe riot is making this new system with the intent of losing money.
: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-05T17:21:00.466+0000) > > Stop this bullshit, ip isn't free, Riot pays you in game currency to motivate you to play the game, You're telling me I can make a game that you don't find fun, but you'll keep playing it over and over and over again if I give you some worthless points at the end of each match? Because that's what you're describing. IP was a way of gating your access to content, but you had to like the game first before that even matters. > This is exactly why they are giving full refunds to people who purchased runes in 2017, because their value doesn't really change with time AND because they don't feel like backstabbing new players too early, the rest, well... No one would have bought Runes in early 2017 if there wasn't that refund. They'd just tough it out for a season then be fine. I can guarantee that purchased dropped in the range when Riot said "no refunds after this point". The value of Runes *plummeted* with the new systems announcement. Vital Runes dropped before even that. What's a +0.91 Armor Rune worth when you can get more than 50% CDR on your ultimate Rune for free? > People asking for runes refunds aren't asking to get anything for free, at the simplest they are asking to not be mistreated compared to newer players, more accurately they are asking for a sensible refund for a product that riot is making to cease functioning, due to rune prices being always stable, a sensible refund is a full refund. They're asking for the IP sink (which they all knew was an IP sink) to retroactively not have been as costly. I wonder how much IP they would have saved if they'd made a bigger stink about Rune prices in Season 1 or Season 2, but I guess they'd rather have thrown IP at fractional stat improvements than try to make the game better then.
> [{quoted}](name=DrCyanide,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-05T18:39:51.659+0000) > > You're telling me I can make a game that you don't find fun, but you'll keep playing it over and over and over again if I give you some worthless points at the end of each match? Nice strawman, I never said anything of the sort. >Because that's what you're describing. Nope. >IP was a way of gating your access to content, but you had to like the game first before that even matters. Me liking the game has very deep ties with me being able to earn ip, I wouldn't like the game if I wasn't awarded with in game currency for playing it, and I'm betting that neither would you. > No one would have bought Runes in early 2017 if there wasn't that refund. They'd just tough it out for a season then be fine. I can guarantee that purchased dropped in the range when Riot said "no refunds after this point". Except that far as I can remember, there was no guarantee of refund up until the last statement. But either way, ever stopped to ask yourself why they are getting refunded? If losing most of the ip spent on runes is fair why wouldn't these people want to buy them then? Hmm... If I didn't know any better, I'd guess it was because it is in fact unfair... how strange... > The value of Runes *plummeted* with the new systems announcement. Vital Runes dropped before even that. What's a +0.91 Armor Rune worth when you can get more than 50% CDR on your ultimate Rune for free? Yes, because they made them plummet, what's your point? > They're asking for the IP sink (which they all knew was an IP sink) to retroactively not have been as costly. I wonder how much IP they would have saved if they'd made a bigger stink about Rune prices in Season 1 or Season 2, but I guess they'd rather have thrown IP at fractional stat improvements than try to make the game better then. Look, lets make something clear, the extent of ip refund for runes(if any), and the new runes system have absolutely no dependance on each other, you don't have to fuck over people who invested in runes to make the new system happen, you can give them 10/20/30/50/70/100/500% refund and it won't change the new system, stop making it as if it's one or the other, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-05T17:21:00.466+0000) >snip Riot *pays you in IP* Rofl. IP is what allows this game to be free to play. So your right when you say that people wouldnt be here if IP didnt exist The two options then is that everything is unlocked for everyone and riot makes no money, or nothing is unlocked and everything costs money and most of us dont want to spend several thousand dollars buying champions. IP was what allowed riot to offer its content for free without losing a lot of money by also allowing it to be purchasable. I feel bad for people who are rather new and puchased a bunch of runes and now feel like they cant puchase champions because of the low return value on the refund. But the fact still stands that riot doesnt owe anyone any IP back. Nor is it unfair for them to not reinburse anyone, nor is it screwing anyone over. This biggest reason that vets are complaining is because they legit dont benifit from this change while everyone who is complaining about the rune system being free and the IP refund is benefiting from the changes to make runes free and no longer apply IP to it. Even with the loss of IP its still a net benifit for the vast majority of players.
> [{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-05T17:50:50.590+0000) > > Riot *pays you in IP* > Rofl. IP is what allows this game to be free to play. So your right when you say that people wouldnt be here if IP didnt exist > The two options then is that everything is unlocked for everyone and riot makes no money, or nothing is unlocked and everything costs money and most of us dont want to spend several thousand dollars buying champions. IP was what allowed riot to offer its content for free without losing a lot of money by also allowing it to be purchasable. Yeah, a lot of companies do that, especially those that trade in software, they pay you in a sense(like some food stands sometimes hand out food for free to get more customers), but they do pay you, it's not exactly real money. Though it's definitely currency and it's definitely earned by you, we are all aware of why they do that but that doesn't change what it is. Ip is currency which you earn and it is far from "free". > I feel bad for people who are rather new and puchased a bunch of runes and now feel like they cant puchase champions because of the low return value on the refund. I don't think you get it, those people aren't very invested in the game, and they would very much feel the backstab, which is EXACTLY why riot is refunding runes at full price if they were bought at 2017, they want to stab people in the back in order to increase profits, but stabbing those new players in the back would instead reduce profits, so they made an exception for them. >But the fact still stands that riot doesnt owe anyone any IP back. Riot doesn't legally own anyone anything, they can take your account, delete it, give you no reason whatsoever and they would still be in the right. >Nor is it unfair for them to not reinburse anyone, nor is it screwing anyone over. And yet it very much does screw people over. Say you have person A and person B, person A decided to invest in champions, B decided to invest in runes, is B not screwed over? >This biggest reason that vets are complaining is because they legit dont benifit from this change No, they are complaining because something they put a lot of currency in is getting thrown into the garbage can. >while everyone who is complaining about the rune system being free and the IP refund is benefiting from the changes to make runes free and no longer apply IP to it. Even with the loss of IP its still a net benifit for the vast majority of players. It's not. It's simply because of the distribution of the sides in this conflict. On one side you have the "asshats": supporting riot backstabbing people and throwing their hard earned ip into the trash can. On the other side you have the "not pieces of shit": that oppose riot backstabbing people and throwing their hard earned ip into the trash can. Now what does that have to do with anything? See here's the thing: people who spent a lot of ip into runes get an in game advantage over people who didn't, and the most obnoxious one at that- the advantage of raw stats. This advantage is now lost with the new changes. They are absolutely losing something, however due to the distribution of sides people who aren't pieces of shit are actually happy to be rid of this. Even if they are actually losing stats in the process. They just don't want to point it out because they don't want it in the game to begin with. They definitely lose what they payed for though, so proper refunds are in order.
: > [{quoted}](name=tombdragon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-05T16:47:53.452+0000) > > Honoring a contract isn't loyalty, that's only business. Customer loyalty is about good faith. > > Like a full rune refund...? You do realize that runes are ONLY purchasable with IP. IP is free from just playing the free game. Your choice to purchase RP and you did and you bought their property but you didnt and cannot speciifically purchase IP. You bought RP and had full ability of where to use it. If you chose to boost IP gains then that was your choice. Again, take responsibility for your own actions. Also don't get caught up in the term refund. You didnt buy IP with money therefor there is nothing to refund.
> [{quoted}](name=ÂFRÏCÂN KÂSSÂDÏN,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=q3aIr5bf,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-05T16:55:57.788+0000) > > You do realize that runes are ONLY purchasable with IP. IP is free from just playing the free game. Your choice to purchase RP and you did and you bought their property but you didnt and cannot speciifically purchase IP. You bought RP and had full ability of where to use it. If you chose to boost IP gains then that was your choice. Again, take responsibility for your own actions. Also don't get caught up in the term refund. You didnt buy IP with money therefor there is nothing to refund. Stop this bullshit, ip isn't free, Riot pays you in game currency to motivate you to play the game, and that currency is EARNED AND OWNED(via good faith, hence "loyalty", legally you don't own shit and they can legally throw your account into a garbage bin, so stop defending it when they do it to others, partially or fully, without a proper reason.(and no, "rune system is changing so we have an excuse to screw people over" isn't a reason)) by you, and I'm fairly sure nobody here would be here if we weren't payed with this currency. Now legally riot can do whatever, but as far as loyalty and good faith go certain things are expected from ip, ip spent on champion for example is expected to remain fairly stable, with slight decay based on the champion price reductions which were always there in a certain amount but were stabilized and posted in an organized manner years ago, runes on the other hand are expected to stay more or less at the same spot. This is exactly why they are giving full refunds to people who purchased runes in 2017, because their value doesn't really change with time AND because they don't feel like backstabbing new players too early, the rest, well... People asking for runes refunds aren't asking to get anything for free, at the simplest they are asking to not be mistreated compared to newer players, more accurately they are asking for a sensible refund for a product that riot is making to cease functioning, due to rune prices being always stable, a sensible refund is a full refund. However seeing your previous responses you seem like far from a sensible person and I highly doubt you 28 as you claim to be(I'd place your attitude and approach at 14/15), or that you actually have a daughter. But on the off chance that you do, at least send her my condolences.
: Shout out to Cactopus and other Rioters
I disagree, they are just doing work on their propaganda trying to defuse/reduce the backlash for stabbing people in the back. Their posts feel very insincere(as in, no way they actually believe what they're saying) to me, so I'd actually hold them in higher regards if they went silent compared to what they're currently doing.
: Unpopular Opinion: Enchanters as a class aren't well designed, period
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIAehaRs,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-03T17:16:55.156+0000) > > Whereas the other types of supports in this game have appreciable variance in their overall output, many enchanters do *not.* Their game play revolves around simply shielding or healing someone or multiple people repeatedly. The enchanter class as a whole needs major work if we want to avoid dumpstering the fuck out of enchanter items to bring them in line. I disagree with your conclusion, balancing this class isn't very hard, a lot of them just feel very lame without much room to express skill. I don't think that's something which is inherent in the class, but is definitely very annoying in champions like janna or soraka, where their decision making is barely even there.
: We all float down here, Georgie. Like it or not, buying all those champs was a CHOICE. Buying all those runes was a CHOICE. Buying or not buying more rune pages was a CHOICE. The IP is free. You use your time to play a game, as a reward based on how you play you were given IP. Using your time to play this game was a CHOICE. You made choices and if you are not satisfied with them then NOTHING anyone else can do will make you feel better about it. So please, take your entitled self out of the conversation. You only contributed insults.
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qr2LzQcy,comment-id=002e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-03T17:16:37.556+0000) > > We all float down here, Georgie. Here not really, wherever you are? Sure. > Like it or not, buying all those champs was a CHOICE. > Buying all those runes was a CHOICE. > Buying or not buying more rune pages was a CHOICE. Good point, let's refund all of it with the same guidelines. > The IP is free. You use your time to play a game, as a reward based on how you play you were given IP. Using your time to play this game was a CHOICE. No, IP is a reward given as an incentive to play the game, and it is something **earned** by the players. How about we just take away all the champions you were given for free and dispose of them? Surely you won't have anything to complain about since they were given to you for free, right? > You made choices and if you are not satisfied with them then NOTHING anyone else can do will make you feel better about it. Oh no, I'm just asking for consistency, I'd find this more agreeable if champions(and anything else bought with ip) were refunded under the same guidelines. Granted I'm counting on the playerbase to oppose something of the sort, and I don't appreciate effort being thrown into the trash, but I'm mostly for equal treatment. You want to throw ip placed into runes into the garbage bin? Do the same for ip spent on other things as well. > So please, take your entitled self out of the conversation. You only contributed insults. Nice description of yourself you have there.
: What's right is not crying over free currency, and accepting the refund and looking forward to a better system and enjoy the benefits possible. Furthermore, yes, compensating was being promised, full refunds were not. Given how in the past runes were scrapped or altered for balance, there was always a chance they would go away. That's part of free items in a free game. Deal with it. If you barely play this game anymore, why cry so much?
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xs7dFWns,comment-id=001d00000000000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-03T17:10:03.069+0000) > > What's right is not crying over free currency, and accepting the refund and looking forward to a better system and enjoy the benefits possible. Just because the system is made better doesn't justify screwing over older players just because you have an excuse to. > Furthermore, yes, compensating was being promised, full refunds were not. I'm not saying they aren't fullfing their word there, I was saying the exact same thing I'm saying now back then: there's no reason for a partial refund. Now if they were willing to give full refund to everyone who bought runes prior to that statement then there would be something to talk about, but they aren't. > Given how in the past runes were scrapped or altered for balance, there was always a chance they would go away. Have you ever actually read/witnessed those events? When runes were scrapped(dodge runes) **full refunds were issued.** http://www.neoseeker.com/news/18016-riot-issuing-ip-refunds-to-league-of-legends-players-with-dodge-runes/ As far as balance goes: there were threads stating that they don't want to mess with runes balance because people are expecting something stable when buying runes, not something which will go useless the next patch...or get thrown into the garbage bin. Thanks for making my points for me though. >That's part of free items in a free game. Deal with it. How about we refund all the champions you got for free then? > If you barely play this game anymore, why cry so much? If this is a discussion about something which is "free", what does it even matter, why do you cry so much about people getting something with that is "free" to begin with?
: First, Rune Pages aren't going away. While being able to edit in champ select gives more freedom, having preset pages for favorite champs is worth having still. Rune Pages were either Free via IP, or Paid via RP. So with pages you will still have, you can get IP back, or an EPIC shard for a champion you own. Not even random crap shard, Guaranteed Epic for one you have. That's a pretty good refund, and the runes refund is justified for free currency items. There is no leg to stand on crying about this.
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qr2LzQcy,comment-id=002e000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-03T16:57:49.262+0000) > > First, Rune Pages aren't going away. While being able to edit in champ select gives more freedom, having preset pages for favorite champs is worth having still. Not with their current pricing, or even a fraction of it. > Rune Pages were either Free via IP, or Paid via RP. In game currency isn't free, hell if it's free why not just give full refund of something that is free? Why not just give everyone 100k ip, which is free, so it won't come at a cost to anyone. Just because it can be **earned** in game doesn't make it free. > So with pages you will still have, you can get IP back, or an EPIC shard for a champion you own. Not even random crap shard, Guaranteed Epic for one you have. OH BOY A GUARANTEED EPIC FOR ONE OF THE 130+(is it?) CHAMPS IN THIS GAME(I own everyone except kayn, which I'll probably get from daily wins before preseason), 90% OF WHICH I DON'T EVEN PLAY, AND FOR THOSE I DO PLAY EITHER THERE AREN'T ANY SKINS I'M INTERESTED IN, OR I'VE BOUGHT THOSE I AM INTERESTED IN!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS SO FUCKING AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean granted I never bought runepages with rp(...I think), but hopefully(...) you get the point. > That's a pretty good refund, and the runes refund is justified for free currency items. How about we refund all champs which were bought with free currency under the same guidelines then? Still a good refund? > There is no leg to stand on crying about this. With denial as intense as yours, why even use legs to stand? hell why stand? just float.
: > [{quoted}](name=manbearswine,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xs7dFWns,comment-id=001d00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-03T05:19:00.318+0000) > > You know what else would lose riot money just the same? If they wouldn't just refund all champions bought prior to 2017 for ~20% of their worth, saying it's a new system with new currency so champions can be refunded as well. > > And what would happen then? Then you'd join in on the "crying". > So how about you quit shoving your head as far up your ass as you can instead? Except, that's not what they are doing lol. Apples and oranges, my friend. They are giving everyone multiple runes to choose from that you will automatically have, not just taking it away and saying "okay, buy them all over again". And to top it off, they are rewarding you for having runes prior to this point.
> [{quoted}](name=One Trick Shyv,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xs7dFWns,comment-id=001d000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-03T07:41:02.716+0000) > > Except, that's not what they are doing lol. Apples and oranges, my friend. More like oranges and oranges. This one you've bought with ip, this one you've bought with ip, if you bought champions because you wanted more champions you'll end up with more content than if you bought more runes, why? There's no reason for that. > They are giving everyone multiple runes to choose from that you will automatically have, not just taking it away and saying "okay, buy them all over again". And to top it off, they are rewarding you for having runes prior to this point. In my(very fitting) comparison they weren't taken away entierly, you were still rewarded for their removal...with 20% of what you've payed.
: Except no champs are being removed, and given that champions are bought with both free currency (IP) and real currency (RP) it would be handled quite differently. My head is on my shoulders where it belongs. Before this announcement there was going to be NO REFUND for old rune purchases. Now they are giving a refund for them and you are crying like a babyback bitch because you want more free currency refunded. Get over yourself.
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xs7dFWns,comment-id=001d000000000001000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-03T12:31:54.708+0000) > > Except no champs are being removed, It's an analogy, it doesn't need to actually happen to understand the logic behind it. Unless of course your head cannot function because it cannot get proper bloodflow being lodged so deep up your ass, then it's a different story. >and given that champions are bought with both free currency (IP) and real currency (RP) it would be handled quite differently. So are runepages, and they are handled differently for rp purchases. > My head is on my shoulders where it belongs. if by "on" you mean "in" and by "shoulders" you mean "ass" then sure. > Before this announcement there was going to be NO REFUND for old rune purchases. Not really, they promised some compensation. But mostly it's the fact that they didn't announce runes being thrown into the garbage until "fairly" recenetly, sure if every time you bought a rune(ever) there was a message saying "this will be thrown into the garbage sooner or later", there'd be something to talk about. > Now they are giving a refund for them and you are crying like a babyback bitch because you want more free currency refunded. > Get over yourself. I barely play the game anymore, this isn't about free currency you you inbred monkey, this is about what's right.
: Because champions are purchasable with either free currency or real currency, Riot would surely do a more in depth and greater refund system. Runes were purely free currency, no fair comparison between runes and champs.
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qr2LzQcy,comment-id=002e0000,timestamp=2017-09-03T12:57:43.370+0000) > > Because champions are purchasable with either free currency or real currency, Riot would surely do a more in depth and greater refund system. > > Runes were purely free currency, no fair comparison between runes and champs. Rune pages weren't free, and besides the refund for rp purchased runepages functions very differently than for those purchased with ip, the comparison is mostly for ip purchases, but it stands for rp purchases as well.
: Rune Refunds: Unpopular Opinion
~~Rune~~ Champion Refunds: Unpopular Opinion I, for one, feel it was useful to have ~~runes~~ champions for my 4 years of playing League, and it would not have been worth it to play without ~~runes~~ champions for 4 years just so I could have a little more IP when this system changes. People are acting selfishly by wanting full refunds. I only have about 30 ~~champions~~ runes left to buy (starting in Season 3), and I haven't used RP on a single ~~champion~~ rune page. Players who claim to be from Season 1 are wanting full refunds, even though they likely own all if not most ~~champions~~ runes in the game. Also, you have been rewarded in game for having ~~runes~~ champions every game you use them. Many people are using the same logic as the person who wears a t-shirt for 3 years, then goes back to the store and tries to refund it because it doesn't fit anymore (There are people that try this btw). But it does not make any sense Thanks in advance for the downvotes! Tell me then, how would you feel if they refunded all champions at 20% of what you've payed for them then? Considering this is the exact same logic, would you be fine with them throwing away most of the time(80%) you've invested into earning them? But somehow because it's runes and not champions, even though your logic works the same for both, it's somehow fine?
: You kinda lose if you want to argue about if it would lose Riot money, because you didn't invest money into Runes in the first place. Quit crying.
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xs7dFWns,comment-id=001d0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-02T17:02:43.525+0000) > > You kinda lose if you want to argue about if it would lose Riot money, because you didn't invest money into Runes in the first place. > Quit crying. You know what else would lose riot money just the same? If they wouldn't just refund all champions bought prior to 2017 for ~20% of their worth, saying it's a new system with new currency so champions can be refunded as well. And what would happen then? Then you'd join in on the "crying". So how about you quit shoving your head as far up your ass as you can instead?
: How about this analogy... You spent time and money collecting cards for a CCG. The game company kept their game rules and model the same for seven years, but in expanding and editing their game to attempt improving it, at least half of their old cards are no longer valid under the new rule edition. In this scenario, normally you are just SOL in regards to official rules and your collection only would be usable in unofficial games with pals. You would get nothing from it. However, Riot is essentially kicking in a reward program to make up for some of that investment.
> [{quoted}](name=ChompyWulf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xs7dFWns,comment-id=001d00000000,timestamp=2017-09-02T00:29:47.897+0000) > > How about this analogy... > You spent time and money collecting cards for a CCG. The game company kept their game rules and model the same for seven years, but in expanding and editing their game to **attempt improving it**, at least half of their old cards are no longer valid under the new rule edition. > > In this scenario, normally you are just SOL in regards to official rules and your collection only would be usable in unofficial games with pals. You would get nothing from it. > > However, Riot is essentially kicking in a reward program to make up for some of that investment. Here's the thing, your comparison has a part where it's a given that making those cards worthless is an inevitable part of trying to make the game better, they could give you your money for them back, but chances are it will bankrupt the company. They're not refunding you any money here, so no direct loss, and it's not inevitable, they could give you a full refund. Would both companies make more money by taking things you own and throwing them into the garbage bin to encourage you to pay more? sure. Is it completely asinine and the exact scenario here? Yes. Is it the same as the scenario in your example? Not so much, the company could arguably let you trade in old useless cards(though who exactly decides which are useless), but there's the issue that those cards are physical, so even replacing them isn't costless. The main problem is here that aside from "riot could earn more money by throwing things you've earned into the garbage bin" there isn't really much of an argument against a full refund. ...I suppose an argument for deflation can be made, as champions do reduce in price, but they are bought with the knowledge that they will be reduced in price, and for the most part even who and when, whereas for runes a stable price is kinda assumed with the purchase. I suppose a 80% refund would still be all in all reasonable, but this is bullshit.
AD Yuumi (NA)
: Apologies, have a lot to get in before build lock so can't respond quickly or fully at the moment. Wanted to reply to this comment though cause you bring up a good point. ** I've edited my original post to reflect this.** > Big difference here, Zyra mid was completely playable for several years and was actually better than Zyra support for several patches. It was only in S3 when support gold income got increased that Zyra became a remotely relevant support. Pretty much immediately after she did she revived a nerf to support with no compensation mid, marking the time when you started to balance her as a support and not a mid. You're right. I forgot how different things were when Zyra was originally released before supports had gold. Mid was pretty different back then too, most mid laners were building double GP/5 and waveclear wasn't as prevalent. I think S2 Zyra was still a decent support (she at least felt that way in internal playtests) but Zyra certainly became "more of a support" after the season 3 changes (as did Brand).
> [{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nx0VVF2o,comment-id=000b0001000000030001,timestamp=2017-08-31T22:50:28.353+0000) > > Apologies, have a lot to get in before build lock so can't respond quickly or fully at the moment. Wanted to reply to this comment though cause you bring up a good point. ** I've edited my original post to reflect this.** > > You're right. I forgot how different things were when Zyra was originally released before supports had gold. Mid was pretty different back then too, most mid laners were building double GP/5 and waveclear wasn't as prevalent. > > I think S2 Zyra was still a decent support (she at least felt that way in internal playtests) but Zyra certainly became "more of a support" after the season 3 changes (as did Brand). I mean, you probably won't see it, but anyway: You can actually check statistics from previous seasons, zyra had a decent pickrate in the second world championship, nearly all of it strictly as support, as to season 3, where she was much, MUCH more prevalent, there was no gold, you can see it in the in that time, supports only got gold when oracles was removed, season 3 was "ruby sightstone+mobis+oracles+wards" meta. Zyra was a support since release, she was also a "stronger amumu of the mid lane" on her release, requiring hotfixes over her winrate, but once the dust settled it was clear she's a support.
: > As if you being incapable of understanding yasuo's issues **has anything to do with math** proving my point
>just because you can't comprehend math and yasuo's problems doesn't mean one is the cause of the other. Proving my point.
: If you can't comprehend basic math I can't help you there
> [{quoted}](name=DeadUnborn,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=tBqdjWkF,comment-id=0006000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-15T14:49:26.630+0000) > > If you can't comprehend basic math I can't help you there As if you being incapable of understanding yasuo's issues has anything to do with math. Sure your understanding of both is absolute garbage, but correlation does not imply casuation, just because you can't comprehend math and yasuo's problems doesn't mean one is the cause of the other.
: Yeah because people have two favourite roles, not one they like a lot and secondary which they "meh whatever, I'll be fine" and 3 roles that they suck at/dislike a fucking lot, right? Because you know, like, just because riot made a system which lets you to get placed into one of two roles based on pure RNG, people must instantly like playing TWO roles exactly as much, right? Do you even realize how fucking annoying it is to pick Adc and support secondary, just to get support 98% of the time? Yes, I main adc and support, but now I pick ADC/TOP because lots of people play top/mid now and I am almost sure that I'll get adc... BUT THEN I GET AUTOFILLED TO A FUCKING JUNGLE, LIKE WHAT THE FUCK, SINCE WHEN THERE AREN'T ENOUGH JUNGLERS, IF YOU WANT TO PISS ME OFF THEN GIVE ME TOP AT LEAST, THAT'S WHAT I PICKED.
> [{quoted}](name=I suck at Jhin,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=AZgRsjA2,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-15T08:44:22.649+0000) > > Yeah because people have two favourite roles, not one they like a lot and secondary which they "meh whatever, I'll be fine" and 3 roles that they suck at/dislike a fucking lot, right? > > > Because you know, like, just because riot made a system which lets you to get placed into one of two roles based on pure RNG, people must instantly like playing TWO roles exactly as much, right? > > Do you even realize how fucking annoying it is to pick Adc and support secondary, just to get support 98% of the time? > > Yes, I main adc and support, but now I pick ADC/TOP because lots of people play top/mid now and I am almost sure that I'll get adc... BUT THEN I GET AUTOFILLED TO A FUCKING JUNGLE, LIKE WHAT THE FUCK, SINCE WHEN THERE AREN'T ENOUGH JUNGLERS, IF YOU WANT TO PISS ME OFF THEN GIVE ME TOP AT LEAST, THAT'S WHAT I PICKED. If you can only play one role then you're the problem, not autofill.
: 1.- That would entirely be dependant on the mana costs and total mana pool of Yasuo. Most hyper carries( I'll get to that later) have lesser early games and then scale up by snowballing or getting items. He can have a decent early trade potential, the point is he should have to choose between trading and pushing, not have both available at all times. If his early its hit too hard the fix is as simple as having his flow charge slightly faster so he can endure poking better. 2.- First line is garbage. No one can presume how to really fix Yasuo without play testing kits (yes, that includes suggesting giving him mana). I argue for giving him a mana bar because it works on all the roster basically, so it makes sense it would work on him as well. Yasuo IS hated for his laning phase and windwall; you can't remove windwall without drastically changing the kit. Hence I offer this simpler solution which would alleviate MOST of Yasuo's problems while not alienating Yasuo players that much. As I told you it is not going to be a significant nerf as mana costs and total pool can be adjusted, as well as introducing mana refund mechanics to his E 3.- If you look at Yasuo's win rate by game length, dps and total damage he is a hyper carry without questions. Other melee hyper carries are Yi, Jax, GangPlank and Fiora. CC also stomps ADCs, nothing new there
> [{quoted}](name=DeadUnborn,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=tBqdjWkF,comment-id=00060001000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-14T21:05:10.868+0000) > > 1.- That would entirely be dependant on the mana costs and total mana pool of Yasuo. No, if it doesn't affect his performance then that means the change doesn't affect his performance, meaning you've achieved nothing. It's as if even you don't think this will change anything. >Most hyper carries( I'll get to that later) have lesser early games and then scale up by snowballing or getting items. He can have a decent early trade potential, the point is he should have to choose between trading and pushing, not have both available at all times. If his early its hit too hard the fix is as simple as having his flow charge slightly faster so he can endure poking better. Flow regenerating slightly faster won't compensate for the sort of nerf you're suggesting, think of how much power you intend to take, then compensate for that. > 2.- First line is garbage. Your entire posts so far have been garbage. You're trying to push a huge nerf, knowing that this is exactly what people want then trying to pretend it somehow isn't a nerf, it just significantly limits things which he can do in lane and delays his itemization but by some sort of mysterious black magic doesn't hit his overall power. I've been trying to show you what your suggestion means but you're just delusional. >No one can presume how to really fix Yasuo without play testing kits (yes, that includes suggesting giving him mana). I argue for giving him a mana bar because it works on all the roster basically, so it makes sense it would work on him as well. Some other champions have no mana as well, but either way yasuo is clearly very different than most champions, so you're gonna have to come up with better reasoning than that. >Yasuo IS hated for his laning phase and windwall; you can't remove windwall without drastically changing the kit. Hence I offer this simpler solution which would alleviate MOST of Yasuo's problems while not alienating Yasuo players that much. No, teemo is hated for his laning phase, this is why if teemo is banned then teemo is banned by a top laner. Yasuo eats bans from everyone, yasuo is hated for being a bullshit champion, not for his laning in specific. > As I told you it is not going to be a significant nerf as mana costs and total pool can be adjusted, as well as introducing mana refund mechanics to his E It looks like you're just trying to give him mana for the sake of giving him mana, without putting any more thought into it beyond that. If you actually had some sort of idea of how this would affect him, you would also have an idea of how to compensate him for the suspected change. > 3.- If you look at Yasuo's win rate by game length, dps and total damage he is a hyper carry without questions. Other melee hyper carries are Yi, Jax, GangPlank and Fiora. Are you fucking kidding me? Have you actually looked at his total damage? Total damage is absolutely miserable, scoring incredibly low for both of his roles 41/45 for mid and 29/51 for top, winrate on champion.gg seems bugged, so I can't tell much out of that(somehow it's always high for everyone at 0-25 mins). And for that matter neither jax nor fiora have very high damage outputs, the only real hyper carry here is yi, gankplank has a strong late for sure, but calling him a hyper carry is a bit of a stretch. >CC also stomps ADCs, nothing new there No, the weakness of adcs is the classical weakness of a glass canon, which is their identity, you get on top of them they die, cc can help get on top of them, so can mobility and burst, they are not particularly weak to cc(aside from some specific ones like kallista and vayne).
: It's easy to see this trolling is due to autofill. If Riot wants to enforce autofill, they should try to help against the toxicity it creates.
> [{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=AZgRsjA2,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-08-13T21:04:29.963+0000) > > It's easy to see this trolling is due to autofill. If Riot wants to enforce autofill, they should try to help against the toxicity it creates. Are you sure? He insists on top, he doesn't ask for top or whatever his secondary is, top only. Hell even if he did get autofilled the fact he asks for a specific role instead of two means that autofill isn't at fault.
: It will alleviate his laning face because if Yasuo wants to dodge abilities with E and w he will have a resource cost to pay for it. You now, like 97% of the roster. Let's look at all other resourceless champs while we are at it: * Garen: His Kit is un-balanceable (he either wrecks people or is trash), he is gated by relatively long CDs * Katarina: Balanced after rework. Her abilities require heavy set up before going off and are gated by it (she can't do jack until she places her daggers) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Renekton: Gated by CDs and Fury bar, falls off late * Gnar: Gated by not being able to control his states, thus having moments of vulnerability * Rek Sai: Her abilities need to work off a partner early game because they are mostly low range or have long CDs, thus keeping her in the jungle --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Zed: His energy and CDs make it so he can only use his abilities in bursts. He is gated by W long CD * Akali: Unhealthy kit because of sustain plus chase potential. She is either oppressive or trash * Kennen: He doesn't have wave clear unless he consumes his engage/disengage tool. If caught he is punished heavily ------------------------------------------------------ Now Yasuo: Arguably he is only slightly gated by his long W CD (ideally this would make him fair if it was true). The problem is he also has a lot of up times (moments of power or advantage over his opponent) with his empowered Q, passive shield and ability to dodge spell. This is a problem because it doesn't give clear opportunities for opponents to go in for a trade > And just to be clear, good players spam his abilities too,** there's no reason for them not to** That is my point, competent Yasuo players have no down times (the only way for Yasuo to have one is to dash over all minions and not back off, which almost no one that knows how to play the game does). Yasuo should have to pay a cost for spamming abilities EARLY GAME, just like almost all the roster does. Now, for compromise. If these changes were to drastically reduce EXPERIENCED Yasuos win rate, I would consider it acceptable for him to be buffed mid to late game in some way that would allow him to be more impactful. What that would be I can't presume to know, but I think because of the way he scales off to be a hyper carry his early game should definitely not be as frustrating nor as powerful as it is right now
> [{quoted}](name=DeadUnborn,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=tBqdjWkF,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2017-08-13T17:52:29.738+0000) > Now, for compromise. If these changes were to drastically reduce EXPERIENCED Yasuos win rate, Of course they would, how could they possibly not? This a is a very serious nerf to one of the most important stages in the game, how many champions with great lategames just went ignored because they couldn't get through early? Not to mention that since he will be forced to itemize for mana now(as you've suggested), this will hit his early hard, and his mid and late as well. >I would consider it acceptable for him to be buffed mid to late game in some way that would allow him to be more impactful. What that would be I can't presume to know, I'd suggest you do then. Yasuo isn't hated for his early, yasuo is hated for his entire playstyle for the entire game, you're just gonna make him less obnoxious early to make him more obnoxious late, you're not solving anything. All you're doing is suggesting a nerf and claiming it to be something else, suggest a meaningful buff to compensate for how big of a nerf this is and you'll see how this just solves nothing. >but I think because of the way he scales off to be a hyper carry his early game should definitely not be as frustrating nor as powerful as it is right now You say that, but he really isn't a hyper carry, he's just a hard counter through and through. He can do great in laning, then get destroyed because the enemy has a lot of reliable cc in it, he can do shit in laning then faceroll everything because the enemy doesn't. He's just poorly designed trash and the only way to fix it is to overhaul his identity, squishy melee dps cannot be made to work, and that is expressed in yasuo's e and w.
: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AMbJnj3j-just-though-of-a-crazy-idea-lets-give-yasuo-a-mana-bar?comment=000200000000 A lot of Yasuo's frustration comes from his capability to spam all of his abilities without consequences or real thought involved into them. Sure, A GOOD YASUO PLAYER won't just spam them, but if he missues them more often than not there will be little repercussion unless he is super extended and gets ganked or dives under tower or something of the like What if Riot changes NOTHING about Yasuo, but gives him a mana bar on top of his flow bar. Now all of the sudden 2 things happen: Essence Reaver becomes core on him, thus reducing the efficiency he currently has stacking attack speed and thus greatly reducing his Q CD up front. He will have to buy it if he wants to spam his E, but because CD has so little benefit to his kit outside his W, his total gold efficiency on his passive will be reduced. He now is mana gated early game and can't just spam his abilities without thinking EDIT: Rather than downvoting, I would invite you to write down why this idea does or does not work, which is more productive
> [{quoted}](name=DeadUnborn,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=tBqdjWkF,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-08-12T22:09:06.308+0000) > EDIT: Rather than downvoting, I would invite you to write down why this idea does or does not work, which is more productive Try to think of it this way, what you're suggesting is clearly a fairly serious nerf to yasuo, considering riot doesn't want him weaker(or they would've already nerfed him), what (serious) buff are you willing to give him to compensate? And just to be clear, good players spam his abilities too, there's no reason for them not to, use q more for the third proc to be up more often, spam e to make his shield go up faster and reduce the likelyhood of getting hit by skillshots, this is a serious nerf to all of his playstyles, what are you willing to give to compensate? Fact of the matter is yasuo's main problem is that he can reflex check too many things, and people do not want to rely on him to mess up(the reflex checks) in order to beat him, they are exciting in theory but far too reliable when used by an experienced player. This won't change that, so it won't fix the problem.
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manbearswine

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