Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=yuuum chan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kQeLNeYh,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T00:01:57.184+0000) > > You are being painfully semantic my dude. For all intents and purposes, 'game design' and 'fun' are literally interchangeable in this context. You could swap out every 'fun' or 'unfun' to 'good game design' or 'bad game design', and the post would be literally the fucking same. I use terms like 'bad game design' and 'unfun' pretty much as synonyms in this fucking post, even. What you're doing is completely fucking unproductive and brings literally nothing to the conversation. You might as well be insulting my mom for all it does for the discussion at hand. > > Don't sit on your high horse and pretend to be some sort of intellectual schooling me when all you're doing is harping on a poor choice of words nobody fucking cares about instead of actually engaging with the arguments. Either you're a troll that wants to annoy me, you're dishonest and don't' want to engage with the argument, or you're quite literally autistic and get unnecessarily hung up on details. > > Never try to form a coherent argument ever again in your life. Ok... for all intent and purposes you are wrong. Simple as that. You can keep believing that "fun" and "game design" are interchangeable things. Just shows how little you k ow about how games are actually made. Go ahead and keep pretending that I'll keep laughing all the way.
And now you're being painfully obtuse. I admitted that using the term 'fun' was a poor choice of words, fine enough, but ultimately, it's also your fucking fault for getting stuck on the semantics rather than what I'm actually trying to say. What you're doing is the equivalent of disregarding an entire analysis of Roman history and discussion about why Rome fell, and instead of harping on that somebody said that Julius Ceasar was born the 13'th of June instead of the 13'th of July. IT's completely irrelevant to the actual point and does nothing but distract and annoy people. I really fucking hope u realize this.
: > [{quoted}](name=yuuum chan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kQeLNeYh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-29T20:28:49.539+0000) > > Right, so let's just put a champion into the game with a single point and click ability on a 2 minute cool-down that literally instantly kills whatever the person clicks on, including towers and baron. If you think that's bullshit game design, hey well, fun is subjective and all, so really, who are you to critize? Yes "fun" is subjective. If you want to criticize then don't use it "fun" as your entire premise for anything. Kits are OBJECTIVELY bad or they aren't. Kits are OBJECTIVELY unbalanced or not. Whether you find something fun or not is quite meaningless for the reasons I already said. That ability you describe? It's objectively badly designed. Game design isn't a subjective thing and isn't based solely around fun. Now are you going to say something else or are you going to keep throwing "fun" like It's an objective term?
Game design is objective, but fun isn't? Oh fuck off, that's so bullshit. We both know that 'fun' is a part of game design. The reason such an ability is bad game-design is that it's uninteractive, lacks skill-expression and counter-play. I.E, it's unfun and frustrating to play against, because you as the opponent has no real way to do anything about it. The goal of every game ever is to be FUN, and when a game design is 'objectively' bad as you so idiotically put it, it's because it's unfun.
: "Fun" is a subjective term so using it as your whole premise as to why something should or shouldn't stay is laughable. What you find "fun" others might not and viceversa. Also everyone has something that they will find unfun or frustrating and that something will clash with others opinions every single time. This is not rocket science It's common sense. Every champion in the game has something that someone finds frustrating just like every single champion in the game has something someone finds to be awesome.
Right, so let's just put a champion into the game with a single point and click ability on a 2 minute cool-down that literally instantly kills whatever the person clicks on, including towers and baron. If you think that's bullshit game design, hey well, fun is subjective and all, so really, who are you to critize?
: > [{quoted}](name=yuuum chan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kQeLNeYh,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-29T13:43:33.647+0000) > > No.... No... THat's not how stats works. > > > Like, you have to take into account how popular a champion is when accounting for how often it should be banned. A champion with a high pick-rate will always have a higher ban-rate, regardless of it's actual strength, strictly because people are reminded of it more. Tryndamere is probably not banned a whole lot, cus nobody fucking plays him. Why would I waste a ban on a champion with barely 2% play rate when I could ban a champion with 5% ban-rate? It's double the value, so to speak, it's more than double the chance that I'm baning somebodies main. > > Like, Urgot is arguebly one of the strongest top laners right now, very few can beat him in lane, and he snowballs super-hard, but nobody bans him because he doesn't have a high pick-rate. He's hidden op, so to speak. He doesn't show up on highlights, he isn't mained by a bunch of streamers or pro-players, so people forget about him and ban Irelia cus they saw some stream where TF blade got a penta or W/e. Irelia's pick rate is 15% with a winrate of 48%. No matter how you spin the numbers, her ban rate is simply too high for her solo queue performance. She has 7 times the banrate of siver who has the same pick rate and 7% higher winrate. Kaisa has more than twice irelia's pick rate, a higher winrate, and a lower banrate. She has similar banrate to jax and hecarim both of who have 3% higher winrate. Her banrate is far higher than her pick and winrates would dictate and that is due to how toxic her design is. Also, while you are correct that urgot is very strong, you misunderstand why people don't ban him. Champion strength is one aspect of why players ban champions. The other reason is simply because a champion is poorly designed. A strong champion who is well designed won't have an overly inflated banrate like irelia or akali. 5% banrate is completely appropriate for how strong urgot is. A well designed champion who is strong will have a banrate like urgot. A poorly designed champion will have a pick/win/ban rate spread like akali or irelia.
I feel like you're mixing up being op with having a broken design. Irelia and Akali have a low winrate because she's hard to play. If you look at their ban-rates by elo, you see that most of their bans are in high elo, where they are both basically perma-banned because when you can use hteir kit effectively, they're OP as balls. They're the same case as Azir, even when he came out and was completely broken, he still had a subpar winrate. And being op is not the same as having an inherently broken design. Comparing that to somebody like Kai'sa is not really fair, because Kai'sa is universally more useful, and doesn't require the same amount of skill to pilot, which means that lower players won't do as comparatively bad as low-tier akali or Irelia players. That's not to say I like Irelia's kit. Akali is prob fine now that they're cut out some stuff, but Irelia is a bit overloaded, sure. But to claim they're on the level of Trynda, Panth or Fiora is simply ridicules.
: > [{quoted}](name=yuuum chan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kQeLNeYh,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-29T08:49:12.581+0000) > > I don't think a champions ban rate is a good way to gauge how toxic a champion is. Even though I find playing vs Tryndamere or Fiora a lot more frustrating than vs Irelia, I will always ban Irelia before the two others because she's better at wining games, which is ultimately what I care about in ranked. That isn’t what the data shows at all. Irelia has a lower winrate than trynd in 99% of elo brackets and regions. However, despite he fact that tryndamere is objectively better at winning games than irelia in almost every solo queue game, irelia gets banned more than 10 times as often. Tryndamere’s banrate is appropriate for his pick and his winrate. Irelia’s ban rate far exceeds what any other champion would pull at 47-48% winrate even if you account for high pick and ban artificially deflating her winrate. People are banning her despite knowing they are more likely to win against her than most other popular champions simply due to how toxic her kit is.
No.... No... THat's not how stats works. Like, you have to take into account how popular a champion is when accounting for how often it should be banned. A champion with a high pick-rate will always have a higher ban-rate, regardless of it's actual strength, strictly because people are reminded of it more. Tryndamere is probably not banned a whole lot, cus nobody fucking plays him. Why would I waste a ban on a champion with barely 2% play rate when I could ban a champion with 5% ban-rate? It's double the value, so to speak, it's more than double the chance that I'm baning somebodies main. Like, Urgot is arguebly one of the strongest top laners right now, very few can beat him in lane, and he snowballs super-hard, but nobody bans him because he doesn't have a high pick-rate. He's hidden op, so to speak. He doesn't show up on highlights, he isn't mained by a bunch of streamers or pro-players, so people forget about him and ban Irelia cus they saw some stream where TF blade got a penta or W/e.
: I don’t think most people find those champions all that unfun to deal with. They all have single digit ban rates. If anything, riot should prioritize removing champions like akali and irelia who maintain banrates far out of perportion to their pick and win rates.
I don't think a champions ban rate is a good way to gauge how toxic a champion is. Even though I find playing vs Tryndamere or Fiora a lot more frustrating than vs Irelia, I will always ban Irelia before the two others because she's better at wining games, which is ultimately what I care about in ranked.
Rioter Comments
: Nocturne [REWORK CONCEPT]
So, there's some interesting concepts here, but the execution is a little botched. His passive basically doesn't exist, because all his spells deal magic damage, so it would only affect his auto-attacks, but you have no reason to build ad since his spells scale of off ap, meaning he doesn't have a passive. I think a much more interesting idea would be to make all his abilities scale of off AD, deal physical damage, but his auto-s (including on-hit effects like Duskblade, tiamat and bortk) can only deal magical damage, because I think that's kind of what you meant to say with his passive. That would actually be quite brutal because building defenses against him would be impossible since he'd deal so much mixed damage. That being said, he has a bunch of flaws outside of that. His kit scales like shit, because his E is basically a worse Kayn E. Sure, it deals some dmg, but it's not worth the lost utility and mobility. Replace it with something that's more useful in a straight fight, to synergize with his W more. Speaking of which, his Q and W are both fine (Q primarily being insane with Trinity, which is always fun). His ultimate I feel is pretty bad design, because the idea of isolating somebody in a shadow realm, as cool as it sounds, would prob feel really bad to play against, and you always have to consider the other side. What I would prefer is if you mixed the concept with what exists today. I.e, you choose a target, dash to them from a super long range, limiting their sight, slowing and silencing them. That way, it has the intended effect of isolating a single target, without being massively useful on a global scale. It also makes assassinations easier, since the target can't escape nearly as easily.
Rioter Comments
FkValeRly (EUW)
: >Talon and TF I still contest, I believe that the skill-gap needed to make them work is not realistic for your average climber. I mean I can kinda see this for TF but talon has like what 54% wr for gold players that have 10+ games on him? and he only gets better and better the higher the elo. sure actually having to learn macro play isn't as easy as just laning half decently well but the thing is its way easier to abuse gold players macro than it is their laning, gold players actually lane surprisingly well and its difficult to stomp them if you get a bad matchup but its always very easy to abuse their lack of macro play. its also very good to play macro dependent champions so that you can actually continue your climb rather than getting stuck in mid tier elo since you have good mechanics and no clue about macro or how to improve your macro play.
Sure, learning macro is a good thing, I agree, but I think learning how to play the basics of a lane is more important. Maybe I underestimated Talon, because Personally I don't like assassins, but my whole contention with your point is this: When you're a gold or silver player, you probably still have a lot of basic skills to learn, like keeping tabs on enemy cooldown, enemy jungler movement, how to push a lane, warding and such. I believe that picking up a champion that is more lane focused allows you to learn to focus on these aspects first, especially if you're somebody who is thinking about switching roles to mid-lane. Certaintly, if you're like platinum or above, and you already have a decent grasp on these things, I would say that Talon is probably a fine pick, but I think learning about macro should wait until you're at a higher level of play and know more of the basic stuff, if that makes sense.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: well in that case vlad, talon and kat are the best champions by far with zoe tf and zed being quite close, AP malphite would also float quite high in the list for that.
Ap malphite only exists cus his numbers are insane, not cus he actually has a good kit for midlane. Like I said in my first post, if you gave Diana insane Ap numbers, she'd ofc be good in low elo, but she'd still have a shitty kit. That aside, I mean, I put Vladimir and Katarina as A-tier, and I said that they were amazing as carry picks. I think they have some flaws that can be exploited, which is why they're not s-tier, but it's not like I called them shit. Talon and TF I still contest, I believe that the skill-gap needed to make them work is not realistic for your average climber. For elo-boosters and smurfs that know how to really exploit the map, sure, they're probably good, but for your average player, I don't think their playstyles are as effective. When you're climbing against people in your own elo, relying on strategies that require you to be much, much better than your opponent are generally not good, because you're probably not that much better. So for gold vs gold players for example, using a more straight-forward kit is probably better. Somebody like Syndra has a difficult kit, sure, but the difficulty comes with the champion itself, not a deeper game mechanic, and so she's a lot easier to learn and wield.
: True, but its the same with Heal as long as your opponent brings Grievous Wounds... No. Or yes. When Im top, I frequently see a potential tp play, where I however know exactly: If I tp somewhere else on the map right now, my lane opponent is gonna get 3 waves of cs that I will miss, plus like 2 turret plates, so unless I get a triple kill plus Infernal, I will be at a disadvantage when I come back in lane. Also my team might not need me. Thatd suck. It might also go completely wrong and we could lose double. In the end, with my tp Im trying to get my teammates an advantage while putting myself at a disadvantage. I dont like doing that. I think 2 waves of cs for me + no extra gold for my lane opponent is usually worth more than 2 kills for the Lee and a turret plating for the autofilled adc (and this is almost the best case scenario). Does that make me an idiot? I actually tried playing without tp, seeing how I often didnt need it, but later on I do need it if I want to push bot while baron is up. Does that make me smart? True cleanse is just that: Niche pick only useful against a handful of champions. "A spellshield would just be a better, more interesting Cleanse, if you ask me." I dont see how a Spellshield is a good example for you. Its literally Barrier + Cleanse, both slightly altered. If you like that okay, but I think it would completely ruin some champions in the 1v1, much worse than Cleanse... _As for new suggestions, I mean, I'm not a fucking designer. I just wanted to point out a problem, and some examples of what I think could be done, but I'm not so invested that I will sit down and design several new summoners, and think about how each one will theoretically play out, and all the different interactions. There are people who are literally getting paid to do that, and I'm sure as fuck not getting paid to do that._ I am extremely disappointed, and my day is ruined.
I mean, no, that doesn't make you stupid, that's actually a very smart thought process, and why I think Tp is a good summoner because that's a consideration you have to make. Sometimes, your lane is simply not in a good spot to TP, but sometimes, TP'ing to lane is completely useless cus you had the chance to push up, and it's crashing into your tower just as you're getting back anyways. That's what I mean by being adaptable, and being able to recognize how altering gameplay changes the uses of TP is what makes it so skillfull. It might seem basic to you, but it's definitely a skill expression, if not a very flashy one. The reason I said a spellshield would be a more interesting cleanse is that one, it's preemtive, not reactive, and 2, it's useful against more champions. It's useful against pretty much all the cc moves cleanse worked against, as well as knock-ups as well as spells such as Zed's ultimate. Are there champions that get completely fucked over by a spellshield? Sure. But champions like lux already get fucked over by Cleanse anyways, and currently ghost is just broken in a 1v1 setting if you have any sort of advantage over your opponent at all, and ignite completely cucks champions like Mundo or Warwick, so if you want to complain about that, I think you can, but it wouldn't be anything new with my suggestions.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: you're talking about carry potential for people who are better than their elo and want to climb quickly but then you switch back to the "its just bad players who need an easy champion to win for them", in which case morg is probably one of their best bets right now. you're trying to argue 2 completely different things here either go with "will win you games when you're a plat player" or "this will be good to carry with when you're good", right now you're just spewing bullshit.
No, i'm very consistent. I sad that this is a post for people who is looking for a champion to play to climb out of their own elo, I.e a gold mid laner who wants to find a good champion to play to learn so they can start climbing. I do not see how that contradicts any of what I said.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: >Again, a really good TF can probably carry in low elos, but even then I would argue that that time would've been better spent on a champion like Syndra, orianna, Katarina, or even Ahri. They all carry harder this is an interesting opinion considering that every elo booster in the world would disagree with you (well other than kat who is also S tier). >maybe you didn't read the criteria in part 1, my rankings are based on how universally effective a champion is. A champion that only works in very specific team comps, or vs very specific teams do not get a high ranking. That's why utility mid-laners like Morg and TF don't get a high rank, because they're not as generally useable as somebody like Syndra or Xerath tell me a team comp that is regularly used in soloQ that TF and morg don't fit into, I honestly don't know why you think syndra is any good though, shes only good in korean challenger because of her no counterplay "you die" button.
Like, what do you even think a platinum player would know about the fucking master+ metagame? I have no clue waht's good in the super high tiers, all I know is what works when climbing solo queue in the lower-mid tiers, cus that's what I've done, and who this is for.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: >Again, a really good TF can probably carry in low elos, but even then I would argue that that time would've been better spent on a champion like Syndra, orianna, Katarina, or even Ahri. They all carry harder this is an interesting opinion considering that every elo booster in the world would disagree with you (well other than kat who is also S tier). >maybe you didn't read the criteria in part 1, my rankings are based on how universally effective a champion is. A champion that only works in very specific team comps, or vs very specific teams do not get a high ranking. That's why utility mid-laners like Morg and TF don't get a high rank, because they're not as generally useable as somebody like Syndra or Xerath tell me a team comp that is regularly used in soloQ that TF and morg don't fit into, I honestly don't know why you think syndra is any good though, shes only good in korean challenger because of her no counterplay "you die" button.
Bro, why do you think this post is for fucking elo-bosters and master+ players? This is for like gold players or W/e who wants to find a good champion to climb their way to platinum or silver players who want to get to gold, not for the like 1% of players you're describing. For those players, for the actual majority of people who play the game, champions like TF and morgana are not good picks. Okay? For those kinds of players, champions like Syndra, like Orianna, like Leblanc, Katarina, Annie, or even Azir if you're ready to put in the time are all better choices, they just are.
: Even in LCS, you can see players flashing too late. Instead of flashing away from that red buff Kindred right away, they take lots of damage, flash late, and still die because the enemies flash after them for the last AA. Its a matter of calculation, "can I live without flashing?", but its actually the same with barrier: You get ganked, you see the enemy using their combo and you know exactly: "If I barrier, now, I might waste it cause I might survive without using it. But If I dont, I might die cause after their combo, all I can block is like one autohit and one ignite tick, and that might be too little to not die afterwards to another AA+ignite tick". Youre actually trying to use my example against me. That amazing player of yours is not amazing because he flashed, but because he warded, saw the gank coming (or had insane reaction speed) and knew he could turn that gank around with proper reaction. TP is extremely dependent on what other people do. Its not in your hand often, like: your jungler could be around when you go b, and stop the wave from crashing into your turret, instead setting up a freeze for you. If your botlane places a proper ward or gets ganked in the perfect way is not in your hand. Youre the idiot if you didnt tp for that cannon creep in lane, if you dont use it in the next 5 minutes. Ghosts bonus MMS is greatly increasing over its duration. To properly use it, you need to use it before you actually need it. This often is way harder than using flash... I wouldnt be happy about a spellshield summoner at all. It would be op vs some champs and useless vs others. Thats the upside of simple summs like Barrier, theyre effective against all champs, not just some. And I would still wanna hear about an actual new summoner that you had in mind when you wrote "There is so much room to explore there, beyond just pure stats". In short: My points is, like with runes reforged, I think that it was much better with the old runes. Nowadays champions are so dependent on keystones like Conqueror, it makes for a balance nightmare, and entire matchups can be the decided by keystones alone, and Id rather not have similar things with summs.
I'm willing to concede that barrier might not have been the best example, and that healing probably would've been a better example of what I'm trying to say. That aside... Firstly, adaption is a part of gameplay. If you're ridging in your thinking that you're only going to tp bot to fight for dragon, then you're no smarter then the guy who only uses tp to get an extra wave of minions. It's power is in how many uses it can have, and in 5 minutes, you're bound to get at least one opportunity to use it. If not, well, that's a risk you're willing to take. Knowing when to take risks is also a part of gameplay. Even though you're always a bit dependant on other people's play, you can still try and predict how the game is going to go through all the factors available. If the entire top side jungle is cleared on your side, and bot-lane is pushed up and winning, it's a safe bet that at least something is going to happen, whether a fight for dragon, or a opponents gank on bot-lane. Sure, maybe your jungler goes afk for 5 minutes, and maybe their jungler just farms and does nothing, but that would probably be the exception. That could certaintly by an aspect of ghost, but still, it being a more intensive burst of movespeed is more interesting than just running really fast for a at people. Ofc you'd have to balance it out, and maybe adding some wind-up to it is still a good solution even after this fix. And, a spell-shield would probably be useful against most teams and/or champions. The only exceptions I can think of are like pure auto-attack champions in the late game, like Master yi, or Tryndamere. But even then, you can block a Tryndas mocking shout. You can block a Vayne's condemn. Without going through each champion, I would guess that like 90%, 95% of champions probably have something worth spellblocking. But, beyond that, even if that wasn't the case... Isn't that what Cleanse is? Niche pick only useful against a handful of champions? A spellshield would just be a better, more interesting Cleanse, if you ask me. As for new suggestions, I mean, I'm not a fucking designer. I just wanted to point out a problem, and some examples of what I think could be done, but I'm not so invested that I will sit down and design several new summoners, and think about how each one will theoretically play out, and all the different interactions. There are people who are literally getting paid to do that, and I'm sure as fuck not getting paid to do that.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: >My dude, TF is only a good pick in like diamond +. I'm not creating this list for the top 1% of players. so you're assuming that the people reading this tier list are bad but at the same time >in low elo solo queue you can't rely on people to carry you. you're assuming they have to hard carry their games like they're challengers in gold elo? >any champion can be good if you spend enough time on them no they can't, they can be good in low elo but its not the champion being good its just the player being a lot better than everyone they're playing against. >Morg is not a good solo queue champion, for much the same reason as TF. you are not looking to hard carry every game when you're playing at your correct elo and both morg and TF are very good for consistently winning games (mind you TF is one of the best low elo carry champions when played correctly).
Not that they have to hard-carry every game, but like I said, you have to be the primary agent. You are the only constant in every game, and that is what you have to focus on. Again, a really good TF can probably carry in low elos, but even then I would argue that that time would've been better spent on a champion like Syndra, orianna, Katarina, or even Ahri. They all carry harder, require a lower skill floor, and can still allow for a lot of skill expression for really good players. > you are not looking to hard carry every game when you're playing at your correct elo and both morg and TF are very good for consistently winning games That is true. BUT, and maybe you didn't read the criteria in part 1, my rankings are based on how universally effective a champion is. A champion that only works in very specific team comps, or vs very specific teams do not get a high ranking. That's why utility mid-laners like Morg and TF don't get a high rank, because they're not as generally useable as somebody like Syndra or Xerath
: You should make an example of what you wanted from summoner spells, cause I dont see what you are going for. "_it just becomes a matter of 'you can't win cus I have a massive stat advantage over you', which feels shitty_" So you dont want stats from summoners? Ok. "_making use of flash requires great understanding and good gameplay. You need to dodge something_" What about a spellshield summoner? That would be the exact same here, just that you cant use it offensively. But no wait, spellshield is more like barrier, so thats no good. A summoner that reveals an enemies position? Ah right Clairvoyance, why did they remove that again?... {{summoner:1}} is bad too, right? {{summoner:32}} for the rift? Might as well give everyone another flash. I honestly cant think of much of a non stat summoner that isnt extremely similar to flash. Revive? Clarity? The point is: "_it just becomes a matter of 'you can't win cus I have a massive stat advantage over you', which feels shitty_" This is just not true. This is true for flash, and only flash. Sure, you can lose 1v1s because of other summs but its quite rare, compared to Flash. Only Exhaust tends to play a role in 1v1s, and you didnt even mention that one. Instead, people FREQUENTLY dont get kills because enemies flash out of skillshots, people also secure kills ALL THE TIME using flash, people that ran out of position like idiots can safe themselves from their biggest mistake all game with flash. You dont need much more "intelligence" for flash and neither for tp. They only allow for those 200 IQ plays more than other summs, and how often do you see a "200 IQ Brainblast" play that could only happen because of flash? In contrast: How often do you see someone survive a gank because of flash?... Flash actually allows you to play less smart, not the other way round. Even for offensive usage: Forgot to put Ignite on the enemy while doing your Assassin combo? Flash+Ignite, to show off your mega brain. You dont need to land Morg Q if you can flash right in the enemies face. You dont need to set up the perfect baron bait bush camp if you can just flash on people in lane. And its the same with tp. Just got sent to base from a gank and about to lose two and a half waves of cs to the turret? Not happening. Just took a terrible trade in lane and your opponent has started to freeze the wave? No problem. Making the perfect tp into baron pit for the perfect late game engage? When half the games end in 25 minutes? Yeah right... "_Just flashing close to somebody won't do you much good in a fight, [...] you need to use it for a massive engage_" A Gnar Flash+R on 5 people sure looks "flashy", but imagine he could do that without flashing, by putting a vision ward in a nearby brush and flanking. Why would that be less "big, impressive, smart"?
Perhaps I should've been more clear in my argument concerning TP and flash. While they can certaintly be used for basic bitch stuff, they allow for more skill expression than other summoners. Rather than complaining about how you can't outplay a stat boost, I agree I probably should've given an example of how a good player has more room to make plays with Flash than with ignite, if that makes sense. There is something about timing sure, but the difference between spells like flash and ignite is that there will be a great distinction between how really good players use them. Basic bitch players might just use it to escape a gank toward his tower. An amazing player might use it to dodge the Jarvan flag and drag, then kill his lane opponent and escape. That's a pretty simple exampel, admittedly, but it goes to show what I like so much about it. The same principle goes for teleport, because while certain players just use it cus they took a bad trade, and want to undo that, a great player might recognize that taking said bad trade is actually a good idea, because even though u lost it, u can TP back and now u have lane pressure. But then again, is that worth it, or do you want to play safe, and save it for a potential dragon play? Recognizing all those possibilities take skill, and will always yield better results than some bronzie using it to get extra farm. I didn't give examples cus I didn't want it to be long, cus this forum seems to hate posts that exceed like 200 words, but you gave a great one. I think changing Barrier to a spell-shield would be a great idea. Because while there is some merit to the idea that you have to use barrier preemptively to block damage, the duration is long enough that you can use it and still gain value even after taking the brunt of the damage. Changing it to be a spell-shield will demand perfect timing, which takes a lot more skill. It's a bit of a stat boost, sure, but it's a more interesting. version of it. Also, it does become more skill intensive in the sense that u have to be more selective. For example, what is more important, blocking a CC-spell, or a damage spell? The damage shield doesn't help vs cc, so the choice is clear, but with a spell shield, not so much. Another idea is that you can't just use it for bonus health. Another example I would like is to change ghost from being a long duration move speed to give more speed over a shorter duration, like max 3, maybe 4 seconds, so that it can't be used to just run people down, but you can instead use the more intense movement speed kind of like a flash, to dodge skill shots, or very quickly reposition in a fight. Ofc people can still use as sort of a secondary, worse flash to just run from ganks, but again, great players will be able to make maximum use out of it.
: I applaud you for effort, but I do not agree with you in the list. Irelia is bad against AP damage because her W no longer gives magic dmg reduction. Heimer is much more annoying in lane. If you're melee, you're screwed. But in his core, He's really just a swiss knife that does everything but doesn't do anything well. As a M7 Karthus main, I can tell you Karthus is better than you think in mid. It is true that he no longer shows up in mid lane champ select, because people purely play him jungle, and never show up(his gank is really just pressing R). What you described as Karthus was me like a year ago. That is a very bad Karthus. A good Karthus can circumvent all that. They can manage their mana and hit Qs. Lay Waste has the most damage potential, and his W is actually better than most take it to be. He's pure damage, and he's got a lot of that. For him, trading=poking. If the player knows the enemy rotation and positioning, they can win the duel. Karthus has the best level 1-3 in the entire game. Good players can make him really good. I think you've only seen the bad ones play.
> As a M7 Karthus main, I can tell you Karthus is better than you think in mid. It is true that he no longer shows up in mid lane champ select, because people purely play him jungle, and never show up(his gank is really just pressing R). What you described as Karthus was me like a year ago. That is a very bad Karthus. A good Karthus can circumvent all that. They can manage their mana and hit Qs. Lay Waste has the most damage potential, and his W is actually better than most take it to be. He's pure damage, and he's got a lot of that. For him, trading=poking. If the player knows the enemy rotation and positioning, they can win the duel. Karthus has the best level 1-3 in the entire game. > > Good players can make him really good. I think you've only seen the bad ones play. Sure, but the problem with this is that any champion can be good assuming that you've mastered them. Diana could probably be a good champion if you're a one-trick. Gp probably has really high potential once you've mastered him, and so on. I would argue that a person that has spent the exact same amount of time on a champion like Azir will, GENERALLY speaking, do better than somebody on Karthus, if that makes sense. Now, I will admit that I am really fucking bad at Karhtus, and since i rarely see him played, maybe I was a bit too harsh. In hind-sight, he's probably more somewhere along c tier, b-tier if you're ready to invest the time, I'll confess that much. But, I would still argue that you can do much better than Karthus with your time investment.
FkValeRly (EUW)
: yes tf is just currently strong, because he has been oh so weak in the past, only been good for a weekish right? and talon for sure, he hasn't been S tier since rework at all, just now popped into popularity, his kits weak just temporarily overtuned numbers right. >And Morg? A-tier. What world are u living in? I'm guessing you're a morg main eh?
My dude, TF is only a good pick in like diamond +. I'm not creating this list for the top 1% of players. I even stated in my opinion on TF that he is a good champion, but in low elo solo queue you can't rely on people to carry you. And beyond that, any champion can be good if you spend enough time on them. I'm sure a Diana play could claim that DIana is amazing or something, but she's just not. Morg is not a good solo queue champion, for much the same reason as TF. You can't rely on other people in low elo solo queue
FkValeRly (EUW)
: I mean this is just completely wrong but I guess its just an opinion so its cool? talon, kat, vlad and tf are S tier, morg is at least A tier, also irelia is probably A or S tier while donger boy is around B.
How the fuck is Talon and TF s-tier in solo queue? Are u confusing being currently strong with having a strong kit, because those two things are not the same at all. And Morg? A-tier. What world are u living in?
Rioter Comments
: Why is your name a cat?
It's cus I'm actually an under-cover dog. But don't tell the cats about it.
AIQ (NA)
: Wow +1 for effort. Maybe on top add each champions rank in order they appear in your post and use a line of _____ to separate champions. Just for ease of reading.
It's currently in alphabetical order, so people can look up a champion they're interested in. The lines may be a wise idea though.
Rioter Comments
Rathew (EUW)
: Where would Kled be? Hypothetically!
Kled would probably be a C. The thing about Kled and similiar champions is that they may do fine in the lane, but they don't fulfill the role of a mid-laner in the late game. You want either burst or a lot of control from your mid-laner, that's what they generally do. But Kled can never fulfill that role, he's either a full-damage troll pick that becomes trash after 25 minutes, or just a bruiser, which is not what you want from your mid-laner.
Wovy (EUW)
: I love that I went to look for my main Cassiopeia and you just completely ignored her and didnt say any comments on her xD noone likes cass :c
What do u mean... She's ranked as A, and I essentially say that she and Azir are very comparable as late game carries, with Azir having more engage, disengage and range while Cassiopeia is better at cc'ing people in the actual fight itself.
: Wbout irelia and aatrox im curious to where you think they would be ranked
{{champion:266}} D Aatrox is interesting and occupies a very unique spot. When played mid lane, his role is somewhat similiar to somebody like {{champion:8}} or {{champion:50}}, a sort of tanky caster, who most of the time likes to play a bit from the backline, but has the ability to charge into the fray if needed. He's best as a sort of CC disruptor, keeping the backline safe from big bois who want to get onto them, and then transitioning into a diver when the time is right. His strengths revolve mostly around being a strong laner that tries to make things happen. He's a good skirmisher, especially in the jungle and around choke-points, making him ideal for contesting dragon or other such objectives. However, Aatrox has a glaring flaw, and that is his reliance on set-up from his own team. Because while he's very strong as an early/mid game skirmisher, he's shit at dueling, and very vulnerable to a lot of matchups. For one, because of how his Q works, once assassins like {{champion:238}} or {{champion:105}} get on him, he has very little defensive measures at close range. But the thing is that mobile champions like those are very likely to get around his lackluster disengage and peeling. He does have his ultimate, but its cooldown is so long that it can't be relied upon to save him every time an assassin jumps in for a trade. At the same time, due to his lack of mobility, he's very weak against any sort of long ranged mage, especially those with CC like {{champion:99}} or {{champion:268}}, against which he pretty much has no ability to actually fight back what so ever. This weakness sticks with him to the late game, where a lot of hard engage champions like {{champion:59}} can just ignore his disruption and CC-chain him before he can get off his third q in melee range. Alternativity, he'll just be peeled and permanently be made useless by supports such as {{champion:117}}. His only real niché is against champions like {{champion:122}}, or other immobile melee champions, which is not a very relevant strength to have, and simply not up to par with what you want from a mid-laner, which is what earns him his sad D-tier. --------------------- {{champion:39}} B Irelia is, put simply, a decent and unique fighter/assassin hybrid. She doesn't have quite the same amount of burst other assassins have, but make up for it in other areas, sort of making her like {{champion:245}}, actually. Though, where Ekko fails by focusing a bit too much on utility and losing out on power, Irelia hits a balance in which her utility supports her raw power. She is perhaps one of the most mobile characters in the game, for one, assuming a good set-up, which good Irelias can use to be amazingly slippery and frustrating to deal with. This mobility is actually stronger in mid-lane, where there are a lot more skillshots than what can be found in top lane. Her stun is a very safe form of engage, where if she doesn't hit it, she simply doesn't have to follow up on it. And if she does hit it, she's pretty much guaranteed a good engage. Couple with it some good late game utility, and it's a fine ability. Her W is also more relevant in mid-lane, versus champions like {{champion:45}} or {{champion:134}}, where there's a lot more bursty dmg to block. And that's where his primary strength lies, as an anti-mage bully, that scales into a mix between a fighter and an assassin. Also, her mobility and CC Is more useful mid as good tools for roaming or skirmishing around dragon, a thing she does pretty well. Her weakness though is actually versus assassins. People who have the mobility to dodge her stun or simply dash through her ultimate barriers will have a much easier time vs her, and it becomes mostly a skill-matchup of who can dodge the other players damage the best - Although she is generally on the losing side, due to the fact that she will never have the kind of burst the assassins have. Another weakness of hers is that she's relatively reliant on snowballing, even compared to other assassins. Because she's not a burst champion, at least not to the degree of your usual assassin. Similarly to Ekko, her damage is delayed and/or unreliable, which makes her vulnerable to being cc-chained or burst herself, which makes her natrually worse at team-fighting compared to the assassins that can pop a carry in a second. The way around this is to be so far ahead that you can just steam-roll people anyways, which is where her reliance on snowballing comes from. And these limitations, similarly to Ekko, is what places her at B-tier.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=yuuum chan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a3r7vbGb,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-16T06:38:09.328+0000) > > Some builds on riven absolutely used transcendence, alongside Ionian boots for 40% rush, and those builds did use grasp or klepto. It wasn't as common as the electrocute build, sure, but it was all around more effective, although not quite as exciting or flashy. The reason her winrate is shit is that she's one of those champions who always have a worse winrate than her actual strength would suggest, similarly to Ryze or Vayne, because of her skillcap, and that most people were using the shittier electrocute-lethality build. Off Meta ones: https://na.op.gg/champion/riven/statistics/top / https://u.gg/lol/champions/riven/build/ Also tell me how you're going to use Transcendence AND Cosmic Insight? You gonna go with Arcane Comet Riven? Lol. Klepto is not as effective. Riven doesn't have a keystone late game. That's the reason people don't use it. Also, you're melee and don't really wanna go in on most champions until level 3, and even then it's risky. > > You're missing my point. I think it's fine for her to be unable to escape because I don't think she needs to escape. Riven is not some weak push-over that can't stand up to other fighters, she is more than capable of killing Trundle, Fiora or others on even footing, assuming equal skill level. It's a weakness similar to Darius, where he has to stand and fight, and if he can't, he loses automatically. It does limit her vs ranged, sure, but again, that's a weakness I think she can take. She's a very strong melee vs melee figher, which, similarly to Darius has to come at the cost of strength vs ranged champions. And, giving her the tools to more easily get closer to ranged champions would necessitate reducing her ability to fight other melee's, maybe even less bulk or something else. Personally, I prefer Riven as a melee fighter, and I want to focus more on that side of her, which will have to come at the cost of power vs range. > No, Riven is not a juggernaut, or a tank. She cannot stay in a fight forever. She can be bursted down EXTREMELY EASILY. She has low base HP, low HP regen, and no sustain outside of items. She is a skirmisher. This means she skirts IN AND OUT OF FIGHTS, she doesn't just go in and stay in until she kills her target. Fiora is a skill matchup, or was until Conqueror, Trundle would mostly win vs her, except Conqueror, etc. > And, with that in mind, I also think it's fine for her to lose vs Quinn, because Quinn is one of those absolutely lane-dominating champions. I mean, basically crushes half the melee in top lane already, just add Riven to the list. It wouldn't make her in anyway unusual. If you still think that's a problem, well, honestly, that's more to do with Quinn being insane than anything. > You're not understanding, Riven already loses to Quinn more than she wins, and this change would make her NEVER win to Quinn because the only way to beat her is for her to waste her E on your E, and go back in when your E is up and hers isn't. > And, okay, fine the cc-reduction idea doesn't really work. But I do believe some kind of similar effect could absolutely be used. Perhaps a slow resistance for a short time, specifically to deal with a frozen mallet and Thresh e, which are probably some of the more important factors for any melee brusier in the game. > I'm sorry but nothing like this would make nerfing the duration better, unless you have her a mini Olaf ultimate if she took damage. during her E, and I definitely don't think she needs that. > And lastly, I want to make it clear that I absolutely agree that Riven abuses conq, and that's what has driven her over the edge to insane levels. However, I would say that these problems with her kit exists outside of conq, and even if it was removed or nerfed, these issues would still be there, making it unfun and unfair for her opponents. No, Conqueror is the ONLY reason she has climbed in win rate. Conqueror alone gave her around 4-6% iirc(I believe it was 4%). This is not true, and has not been true. If it was, she would have already been over a 53% win rate before Conqueror was introduced. Her stacking Conqueror is what's causing her to win. Think about it like this: Imagine all your abilities got 10-40 EXTRA base damage, and 10% of your entire kit's damage was true damage, compared to previously where you had to be in combat, and wait 4 seconds JUST TO GET THE TRUE DAMAGE. This is what Conqueror did to Riven.
> Off Meta ones: https://na.op.gg/champion/riven/statistics/top / https://u.gg/lol/champions/riven/build/ Also tell me how you're going to use Transcendence AND Cosmic Insight? You gonna go with Arcane Comet Riven? Lol. Klepto is not as effective. Riven doesn't have a keystone late game. That's the reason people don't use it. Also, you're melee and don't really wanna go in on most champions until level 3, and even then it's risky. I didn't say it was a late game key-stone, but we both know that klepto dominated top lane when it was released, because, honestly, it was the best choice out there. While it didn't give her raw power, the fact that it gave you free boots, smugglers market and a bunch of free items (especially pre-nerf on their sale value) made it so that she could snowball super hard and get her 45% cdr. Now people don't use it anymore, because conq is broken garbage, but it was used, and it was effective. It let her take trades she had no business taking, and just regen with hp pots or w/e. And just to be curious, I went to mobafire and checked up on the top 5 builds. circa 50% of them used transcendence or cosmic insight. > No, Riven is not a juggernaut, or a tank. She cannot stay in a fight forever. She can be bursted down EXTREMELY EASILY. She has low base HP, low HP regen, and no sustain outside of items. She is a skirmisher. This means she skirts IN AND OUT OF FIGHTS, she doesn't just go in and stay in until she kills her target. Fiora is a skill matchup, or was until Conqueror, Trundle would mostly win vs her, except Conqueror, etc. Except that Deaths dance is an item. > You're not understanding, Riven already loses to Quinn more than she wins, and this change would make her NEVER win to Quinn because the only way to beat her is for her to waste her E on your E, and go back in when your E is up and hers isn't. No, I understood. And your point about Quinn honestly has more to do with Quinn being broken garbage that stomps everything. If your marker for champion is 'they need to be able to stand up against Quinn in lane', well then half of all melee in top lane is just hot garbage. > No, Conqueror is the ONLY reason she has climbed in win rate. Conqueror alone gave her around 4-6% iirc(I believe it was 4%). This is not true, and has not been true. If it was, she would have already been over a 53% win rate before Conqueror was introduced. Her stacking Conqueror is what's causing her to win. Think about it like this: Imagine all your abilities got 10-40 EXTRA base damage, and 10% of your entire kit's damage was true damage, compared to previously where you had to be in combat, and wait 4 seconds JUST TO GET THE TRUE DAMAGE. This is what Conqueror did to Riven. We already covered this. You can't just look at a winrate as the only evidance of balance. When Azir was released, he was absolutely fucking broken, one of the most op champions since like Xin Zhao, but he didn't even break 50%. The reason for this is that Riven is a bit of a more difficult champion, and she's also a VERY popular one. It's like vayne, for example, even during metas where vayne has been very good, she's had a subpar winrate because of scrubs and newbies wanting to go Gosu with her. It's the same thing with Riven. And Finally, what is it that allows her to stack Conq so quickly? It's the fact that she can spam her abilities on you without any real drawback for her. Specifically in the late game, it's her ability to spam Q to get on top of you, and then spam it again to damage you. Riven's E has always been a complete cancer ability
: > [{quoted}](name=yuuum chan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a3r7vbGb,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-16T05:57:46.960+0000) > > I disagree with you saying that CDR is not easier to get now. It's mainly due to the new mastery system, specifically the one that gives you a free 10% cdr. That can make 40% cdr, much, much easier than ever before, for much cheaper. You mentioned that riven is unlikely to buy spear of shojin and bc, and while that's true, the point is that she doesn't need to, and that's the problem I'm trying to get to. > And while I agree that Shojin is definitely a problem, I'd argue that this problem existed before the spear did, and before conq did as well. Back then, Riven would just use grasp, klepto, and electro, and get pretty much the same results as currently. Because the problem with her kit right now is that she is dependant on cdr, and that cdr is too easy to get. As long as that is the case, she has to be changed accordingly. Riven doesn't use Transcendence, as I said. Also, even if she did, she would STILL have to buy 10% CDR. You need CDR as fast as possible and level 10 is not fast enough to have no CDR. She also didn't use grasp really, or Klepto really. She used Electrocute. ALSO she was not strong then, she was on the **lower** end of a 50% win rate. > > For your first point, I understand the concern, but I would honestly argue that that's a weakness she can have. She's already a strong fighter, and doesn't necessarily need to run from those champions. I don't want riven's just spamming the shit of it every single second without abandon like their lives depended on it. But if you're that concerned about it, how about we actually make it so that if she hits a champion with all 3 procs of her q, the cooldown will get reduced beyond what it is now? THat way, she can make up for the lack of escape by being more capable of standing up against enemies? > A weakness she can have is not being able to escape champions that she already can't escape from? What? This would LOWER her ability to engage and disengage DRASTICALLY. She wouldn't be playable. You don't always use your abilities to kill people, Riven NEEDs her cooldowns to be low because that's the only way she can realistically get on top of someone. You wait out your Qs as long as possible, then engage with E>Q3, where your Q is back up by the time you land Q3>auto>W. > As for your worries about specifically Quinn in lane, I believe that can be fixed by proper numbers on her e. I mentioned that I believe it should have an effect where it's cooldown is reduced whenever a high amount of dmg is blocked by it, and I believe you can fix riven's issue with ranged laners by setting the threshold at the right point, so that if riven blocks a Quinn q, followed by auto, she gets it back quicker. A similiar principle can be used for gnar e+q boomarang, and other ranged poke -combos. What exactly that number is, I don't know. > You're not understanding, Riven NEEDS the duration on E. One second is not enough time to NOT take damage from her E, because it'll likely make faking her out MUCH MORE DIFFICULT. She already loses more than she wins to Quinn, and she always has, but this would make her lose that matchup a lot more. Hell, she would probably lose the shield before Quinn jumped on top of her even if Quinn used it directly after Riven used E. > If you're still worried about her getting kited by ranged champions, I do have a bit of a solution, stolen from Garen. Give her e a burst of tenacity upon use. Similar to Garen, if you use it right before a powerful stun, root or slow, you can heavily reduce it's effectiveness. It wouldn't help against all champions, but it would help massively versus the likes of Thresh, Zyra, Mega-gnar and a bunch of others. With any of these changes, vs Zyra and Thresh, this would still not be enough, as she would die by the time she was CCed. Also tenacity doesn't work for Thresh, because his flay is a displacement, and if you're using your E, it's usually to DODGE such abilities as a Mega Gnar W, not get hit by it. Riven's E is meant to dodge abilities while also taking hits by the undodgeable ones, unless there is a specific matchup where she has to take a hit with her E in order to win it. Riven was NOT OP or even slightly strong before Conqueror and Spear of Shojin came. She wasn't even OP when Conqueror was first introduced. NOW though, Conqueror gives bonus stats per stack, making her early game stronger, and THIS IS WHY RIVEN IS OVERBEARING. She stacks it too fast.
Some builds on riven absolutely used transcendence, alongside Ionian boots for 40% rush, and those builds did use grasp or klepto. It wasn't as common as the electrocute build, sure, but it was all around more effective, although not quite as exciting or flashy. The reason her winrate is shit is that she's one of those champions who always have a worse winrate than her actual strength would suggest, similarly to Ryze or Vayne, because of her skillcap, and that most people were using the shittier electrocute-lethality build. You're missing my point. I think it's fine for her to be unable to escape because I don't think she needs to escape. Riven is not some weak push-over that can't stand up to other fighters, she is more than capable of killing Trundle, Fiora or others on even footing, assuming equal skill level. It's a weakness similar to Darius, where he has to stand and fight, and if he can't, he loses automatically. It does limit her vs ranged, sure, but again, that's a weakness I think she can take. She's a very strong melee vs melee figher, which, similarly to Darius has to come at the cost of strength vs ranged champions. And, giving her the tools to more easily get closer to ranged champions would necessitate reducing her ability to fight other melee's, maybe even less bulk or something else. Personally, I prefer Riven as a melee fighter, and I want to focus more on that side of her, which will have to come at the cost of power vs range. And, with that in mind, I also think it's fine for her to lose vs Quinn, because Quinn is one of those absolutely lane-dominating champions. I mean, basically crushes half the melee in top lane already, just add Riven to the list. It wouldn't make her in anyway unusual. If you still think that's a problem, well, honestly, that's more to do with Quinn being insane than anything. And, okay, fine the cc-reduction idea doesn't really work. But I do believe some kind of similar effect could absolutely be used. Perhaps a slow resistance for a short time, specifically to deal with a frozen mallet and Thresh e, which are probably some of the more important factors for any melee brusier in the game. And lastly, I want to make it clear that I absolutely agree that Riven abuses conq, and that's what has driven her over the edge to insane levels. However, I would say that these problems with her kit exists outside of conq, and even if it was removed or nerfed, these issues would still be there, making it unfun and unfair for her opponents.
: Disagree, Riven gets 40 or 45%, always has and always will, that's WHY her spells are so spammable, and it's the only way she's allowed to survive. Riven is strong right now because of Conqueror and Spear of Shojin, those are literally the only reasons. She can stack Conqueror extremely well. That gives her a much stronger early game. Sure, with Spear of Shojin, an item that literally resets cooldowns on auto attacks, she's much more spammable. That item doesn't need to exist. Once that and Conqueror are solved, she'll be fine and much less "spammy to where she can use abilities without worrying". Riven is ALL ABOUT CDR. You can't do anything worthy of damage without it, once you get it, you become a lot stronger. The first suggestion is terrible, and I'll explain why. Riven cannot outrun Tryndamere, Riven can SOMEWHAT outrun Fiora, Riven can SOMEWHAT outrun Irelia, Riven cannot outrun Gnar once he has frozen mallet, Riven can sometimes outrun Tahm Kench, depending on if he hits Q, Riven can sometimes outrun Trundle, depending on pillar placement, Riven cannot outrun Wukong, and Riven cannot outrun Yasuo. Conversely, Riven cannot engage on ANY ADC without flash. increasing these cooldowns will make her too weak for the sake of nerfing her instead of the real problem. Let's also mention that CDR isn't any easier to get for Riven now than before. Spear of Shojin is 3400 gold to get 20% CDR, Black Cleaver is 3000. She's not likely to buy both, and if she did that'd be a lot of gold considering Death's Dance is also 3500 gold and she'd be wasting CDR unless she took transcendence, which she doesn't normally take. E duration nerf: Quinn is a BIG reason I can think of not to do this. You need your E to fake out an all in on her, whereas she E's you back, and you shield the damage, and back off, then go back in when your E is off cooldown and hers isn't. Another reason is that her E is not meant to just "block big spells", it's meant as a versatile ability, and most often is used to engage because you're not wasting damage when you engage with E, or E>flash>W. Imagine you E flash W with your change, this would mean she's overlapping her shield with CC, and no longer shields any damage when engaging like this. This also means it's harder for her TO engage because a lot of the time you need E + flash to close the gap to do this. Also Riven wouldn't be likely to ever block a Garen ult with her shield unless she was already low and he just ran at her to ult her. A lot of the time in Garen vs Riven you're gonna E into his Q, and fight him in his E, because that's the only way you win. If you don't E his Q, then he gets to silence you and kill you before you can shield his ult. My suggestions? Make Conqueror not able to stack through auto attacks. This would lower some of Riven's conqueror stacking, putting her in a less overbearing spot, and also remove Spear of Shojin. This item doesn't need to exist in the first place.
I disagree with you saying that CDR is not easier to get now. It's mainly due to the new mastery system, specifically the one that gives you a free 10% cdr. That can make 40% cdr, much, much easier than ever before, for much cheaper. You mentioned that riven is unlikely to buy spear of shojin and bc, and while that's true, the point is that she doesn't need to, and that's the problem I'm trying to get to. And while I agree that Shojin is definitely a problem, I'd argue that this problem existed before the spear did, and before conq did as well. Back then, Riven would just use grasp, klepto, and electro, and get pretty much the same results as currently. Because the problem with her kit right now is that she is dependant on cdr, and that cdr is too easy to get. As long as that is the case, she has to be changed accordingly. For your first point, I understand the concern, but I would honestly argue that that's a weakness she can have. She's already a strong fighter, and doesn't necessarily need to run from those champions. I don't want riven's just spamming the shit of it every single second without abandon like their lives depended on it. But if you're that concerned about it, how about we actually make it so that if she hits a champion with all 3 procs of her q, the cooldown will get reduced beyond what it is now? THat way, she can make up for the lack of escape by being more capable of standing up against enemies? As for your worries about specifically Quinn in lane, I believe that can be fixed by proper numbers on her e. I mentioned that I believe it should have an effect where it's cooldown is reduced whenever a high amount of dmg is blocked by it, and I believe you can fix riven's issue with ranged laners by setting the threshold at the right point, so that if riven blocks a Quinn q, followed by auto, she gets it back quicker. A similiar principle can be used for gnar e+q boomarang, and other ranged poke -combos. What exactly that number is, I don't know. If you're still worried about her getting kited by ranged champions, I do have a bit of a solution, stolen from Garen. Give her e a burst of tenacity upon use. Similar to Garen, if you use it right before a powerful stun, root or slow, you can heavily reduce it's effectiveness. It wouldn't help against all champions, but it would help massively versus the likes of Thresh, Zyra, Mega-gnar and a bunch of others.
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Kythers (NA)
: wait you put Jinx instead of Kogmaw, Xayah or Varus? {{sticker:sg-janna}} Jhin is more mobile than Jinx is
> [{quoted}](name=Kythers,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ONbwXVEr,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-10-24T16:24:33.452+0000) > > wait you put Jinx instead of Kogmaw, Xayah or Varus? > > {{sticker:sg-janna}} Sorry... I can put them here instead if you want. {{champion:96}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:110}}
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yuuum chan

Level 76 (EUNE)
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