Nycklex (EUW)
: Since we now can farm up, would you guys be able to add back Kai'Sa and Akali Prestige to the point shop? I think a lot of people would appreciate it, especially me, since I went on holidays and couldn't farm, now I hate holidays because of that. Adding the skins back wouldn't be a problem because they will be farmable, just like the events. {{sticker:sg-lulu}}
The time limit is what makes them prestige they won't add them just get lucky on shards
Elewd (NA)
: I think Zhonya's is actually a pretty good item since, lets be honest, most Zhonya uses result in the person dieing anyway, while stopwatch can be used to stop any early deaths since not everyone is grouped up etcetc.
If you die using Zhonya's either your death was worth and you used Zhonya's to buy time in a way or you used it wrong. Stopwatch on the other hand promotes toxic gameplay, I'm currently learning mid lane and I pretty often run into people with the stopwatch rune, problem is when I don't get an advantage early enough I know I won't be able to take the risks I need to take to get this advantage because they'll get a free zhonya's, same goes if they come back with the stopwatch because they'll rush zhonya's, just a 600 gold investment or a rune change and you got a safe lane and an uninteresting and uninterractive play pattern, this item takes the game in the same direction as double targon bot hyper sustain adc, and this got removed I don't see why stopwatch is still here for the same reasons, or then allow adc to sustain in lane again and promote this flat playstyle in all the lanes
: >makes me think you don't play crit ADC at all I don't think this comment helps advance the discussion at all. I *do* prefer crit marksmen when I play that role, but I don't see why that's important for theoretical discussion. Everyone's input can be valuable. Anyway, as to your other point, I agree the new passive isn't perfect. That isn't an argument I'm making. I *do* think the new passive is better than the old one, for reasons I already stated. Marksmen *should* be a tank counter; that's exactly what I'm saying. That's their role. If they can burst assassins, mages, and other marksmen, then assassins and mages (especially immobile mages) immediately fall out of meta. Why play something that needs to use skillshots or risk death to explode squishies when you can play a class that only needs to right click them to burst them? The marksman skill-test should revolve around positioning, not getting the first attack in. Twitch is already strong in the current marksman meta; if we give him back his burst, it's not a good thing. I'd be open to other changes, but a revert is a mistake in my mind. I'm asking someone to explain to me why it's a step forward to revert a change that succeeded in focusing marksman power to the right place, even if it isn't perfect.
With old IE we couldn't burst anyone if a crit dealt 700 damage to someone with absolutely no armor that meant we got over fed and they're not building accordingly and we're in the late late game and that's still not half of their hp. With the new one the very max I've seen counting true damage on both squishes and tanks was a bit less than 600 and I'm talking from Jinx pov so with 10% added damage on autos. Meanwhile assassins and mages deal twice that amount with half the effort, because yes auto attacking is no effort but getting into a right position is a lot of effort, and tanks and bruisers do about the same but with literally no effort it's all passive or aoe damage while being too tanky to care about positioning at all. They require different skills ofc but their damage is not dependent on skill, also you're speaking of skillshots but a lot of assassins that are meta don't need to hit their skillshots most of the time like lb q q(r) w is a one shot w being more a point and click than a skillshot. Back in the time where adc were op it wasn't the adc role that was op but the support making them really strong, now that the supports are back at an ok stage but the adc got guttered we are so behind that it's unviable at the same skill level to take a crit adc, these changes may fix it or not but at least will put crit adc back where they were kinda but without the stupidly broken supports behind them so we'll be able to see what needs to be actually done. The "makes me think you don't play crit ADC at all" part wasn't meant to sound aggressive just that almost no adc player i've talked to didn't want the return of old ie
Elewd (NA)
: i am a non ADC player, infact i dont play a lot of ad champions in general as i find the AP champts to be more allaround fun to play, so my thoughts are more inline with the potential new Maw. I dont like Hexdrinker builidng out of stopwatch, i think stopwatch + hexdrinker + the hammer (i dont know the name) would feel better, because AD's in midlane and toplane can already build hexdrinker and just ruin the midlaners day, having that early stopwatch and having it build into something makes the level 6 powerspike of many mages suddenly nonexistent.
Just delete stopwatch it ruins the fun for literally everyone just like early stopwatch for ad in the midlane would ruin your fun, your stopwatches conveniently in zhonya's build ruins the fun for everyone too, same withtanks building it into stoneplate or ad champs building it into ga, it's a very bad item
: Why dont you just change how crit chance works. 30% crit chance should be 30% (or whatever crit chance you have, capped at 100%) of the damage a normal crit attack does instead of randomly dealing 200% damage.
then crit is pointless and should just be more ad plus all the abilities that scale with crit have to be reworked entirely
Evangele (NA)
: {{champion:267}} Please be aware that I have edited a few of your comments to remove insults. If you wish to discuss a topic with others and disagree, please do so respectfully. Future violations will result in your entire comment being removed instead of edited. I am editing it currently because I believe you guys are capable of this conversation without insults. If you have any questions about this moderation action, don't hesitate to reach out to the Boards Moderation Team via: * The [**NA Boards Discord**]( * The [**Discuss the Boards**]( sub-board
Mhm I think I've been insolent and provocative without using any real insults (appart from dumb once) but sure can I know some of the parts you edited out because it seems entire paragraphs went out, I know I can get heated fast but I doubt that entire paragraphs were one solid insult, and also because I don't remember what I said so I can remember to not say that in the future xD
: I also posted a link to Ghostcrawlers tumblr where he explains that Crit is bad and is going to be reworked in the long run. Though, apparently it converted into an image of a scuttlecrab? I dont have any idea how formatting on boards works, so I guess thats a thing? Not really. They touched up on stealth once in 2012 with Twitch and Evelynn. Then they didnt touch stealth again (despite saying that it would need some more changes in the future) until 2016. Thats just how Riot operates. They work in projects, and projects rarely follow another of the same type. Its not new. First of all, thats semantics (and also not entirely correct). Second, even if we were to go by semantics, no it wouldnt. If you repeat it, you dont turn back time (since yknow, thats not possible), so its going to be a different result. With the other one it wouldnt, because it was deterministically chosen. Of course it couldnt be improved on. Because youre not fixing the problem, youre just making it less likely. If you push Pseudo-RNG to the point of being deterministic, you have no reason to have crit in the first place. But even beyond that, first, the fact that just that one game was ruined by crits RNG is more than enough reason to get rid of crit. Because it shows that even at the highest level, in the worst moment, skill can be beaten by luck. Skill gets devalued. The other problem is, it wasnt just that one game. It happens all the time. And the problem is that skill gets devalued. Well, actually there is a number of problems. Crit being random: devalues skill, destroys strategy, causes massive frustration and creates balance and design issues. No it couldnt. Even if you force it into being non-logarithmic (and then risk it being abusable), you never can get rid of the fact that skill will be beaten by luck countless times every day. Because thats what being random does. Also, I already mentioned that above. Unless the PC rounds down at some point, it never reaches 100% or 0%. It approaches it, but never gets to it. The Ashe system is strictly superior. But as for the question "well why not have it give AD". Easy. AD buffs abilities. Crit does not. Crit is a multiplicative stat. What makes it interesting is that it increases the effectiveness of other stats, and incentivizes attacking without buffing spells. The fact that its random is what makes Crit badly designed and frustrating, not interesting. No, I have universally recognized ideas based on decades of game design theory. Something that shouldve been a dead giveaway by the fact that the, at the time, design director of league agrees. On the other hand, will you be able to find a single rioter who says crit being random is good? I doubt it.
Ok so I'll just adress the part where you're mathematically wrong because I'm a bit tiered of explaining to you the same thing that you obviously can't grasp. So on the "it never reaches 100% or 0%. It approaches it, but never gets to it." part is wrong if your assumption of the system being logarithmic is true and here's why. look at that curve (the link should work) you can go as far as you want in bot x and y Now what do you need to never reach 100% but get infinitely close? You need to define an interval [y-a;y+a] with a being as small as possible (in this case you can even put the interval [y-a;y]) and all values of f(x) being inside the interval. Apply that to the logarithm now. Can you find any y values that obeys such rules? Nope it just doesn't exist because log(x) tends towards infinity when x tends towards infinity, that means no asymptote, so the function doesn't approach any real number. It does go slower and slower (f'(x)=1/x) but as shown by the derivative no matter how big x is 1/x will stay positive, approac 0 but stay positive so f'(x) is strictly positive on R+ so f(x) is always increasing. So we have no maximim value and no horizontal asymptote there is no way a logarithmic equation allows for a results that approaches without reaching any real value.
: And yet it happened. Who knows why. It is possible that Meddler simply worded it poorly (At that point it was definitely something that was going to happen in the long run, perhaps he meant to say that nothing was going to happen soon, as they did find a few downsides to Ashes system), but at that point, Crits future rework was already settled. Unfortunately, I dont. It was only one Rioter who explained it once, and that source appears to have been lost to time. However, we can also infer from the patch notes when it was introduced. It says "We have changed how critical strike and dodge chance work. You will now get fewer ‘lucky’ or ‘unlucky’ streaks where you get no critical hits/dodges in a row, or a lot of them in a row. Your average chance to get a crit is the same as before though – if you have a 50% crit rate, and you make 100 attacks, you’ll still crit about 50 times.". Notably, fewer of them, but nothing to completely prevent them. No, they still arent. A random event is one where if you were to repeat the experiment, you would get different results. Where there is no way to predict it. The other one is explicitely *about* predicting. You predict what the enemy does. You dont know it (unless you have vision), but you still have choices to make, and things to consider. The other one is strictly gambling. First, yes, pseudo-RNG existed back then. Its existed since 2011. Here are the patch notes: "". Second, it wasnt just an LCS game. It was the deciding game 5 of the Summer NALCS finals. The most important game of the whole season. Decided purely by luck. Great, isnt it? And as we know, pseudo-RNG did nothing to stop it (it wouldnt, if pseudo-RNG would enforce crit that heavily, why even have crit in the first place). I already posted 2 links though. And references to things you can search yourself. You however have posted nothing. Or done any research. You havent even addressed that crits removal is stated by Riot to be coming. <Removed by Moderation>
You have posted one link to patch notes and that's it there's not a single one more. Post link to where they said the changes were a test and I'll start to believe you and even then it's been years that this issue hasn't been touched at all if this was indeed a change it would have continued to be tested until perfected and implemented for good. If you repeat both experiment you'll get exactly the same result randomness doesn't exist in computers so both will have the same outcome, but if you change slightly, that means change who the mid laner is so they think abotu the game differently and have a different playstyle they will do something different, and if you change the variable your auto will crit or not differently. Okay so it existed well then doesn't say it could be improved on. And still it's just one game, it's important but still only one game so doesn't have more importance than even a bronze game or an aram, it has more consequences for the players but it's like complaining about the luck needed in poker, you need skill in poker but if you're unlucky you can't win well if it's the same in lol then so be it everyone has the same chance so where's the problem. The bad luck protection could be improved on especially if it's only logarithmic, oh and btw even if it's logarithmic it can go to 100% crit chance because lim(x=>infinity)log_n(x)=infinity so ye if x is the amount of autos without critting you will have an x for which the crit chance is 100%, howerver take the function -e^-x and you have lim(x=>infinity)-e^-x = 0 there's an horizontal asymptote so a limit if this 0 corresponds to 100% crit then you'll never reach it but will get infinitely close, so close that the computer will take it as 100% but anyways let's say we have a Turing machine so we get infinitely close to 0 it's till not what you said, if you said exponential sure but you didn't so your argument is invalid. So how this system could be improved on is being deterministic in frequency (while still allowing events with like 20% or so chance to occur to occur) but not at all by removing crit like Ashe if they did then crit items would be useless because why not just make gives x ad instead of gives x crit that would be the exact same result, crit would lose all its interesting value. <Removed by Moderation>
: IE: I feel like the first one is the better option, 5000 gold items run into the same issue as what IE had straight after the rework, too expensive to be considered despite how important it actually is. Hexdrinker: I’m agreeing with others that stopwatch shouldn’t be on an item that you need to rush reactively... plus having one stopwatch upgrade for ad, ap and tank seems much more fitting. PD: that’s a good change, removes the invisible power that PD has which is very good for its health. ER: I’m honestly not sure who’d buy it... adcs focus whoever is in front of them this is a golden rule, that’s usually someone with a lot of health, so chunking them fast enough to proc this could be problematic... getting to the back line to get a target who could be chunked fast enough isn’t realistic for an adc. It’s an improvement but perhaps it being tied to auto attacking the same champion X times would be more appropriate. Stormrazor: the first one defeats the objective of the item... it’s supposed to be a strong first purchase for adcs, but the change makes it more like the current IE which makes it need more items to be effective. The second one is the better option imo, though it’s a nerf to jhin which is a shame (not too big of a deal tho) Last whisper: does it need buffing though... tanks are still struggling as is Maw: good update to the build path... ___ Question: how are you going to combat these affecting other champions... these are to help adcs but you’ve got changes to crit so yi, yasuo and trynd are all affected, and changes to maw which gets picked a lot on assasins, something counter productive to helping adcs... is there going to be a close watch on these champions or do you have plans to limit the effectiveness of these items for them.
IE straight after rework was not good after completion tho even now it's not that great the 5K gold version is much better because it makes 1.5/2 items in one for an insane cost efficiency.
M0wgl1 (NA)
: I think Stormrazor is fine since it has found a really nice niche with Jhin, Gangplank and Draven. Especially jhin since it goes perfectly with his movement speed passive. It's also good on assassins like Khazix and Wukong as well as champs like Graves. I wouldn't change it. People just need to know who it's good to build on and who it isn't, most Marksmen don't need to build it. And if you're going to revert the IE changes then don't change Stormrazor, I actually really like the item.
Storm isn't intended for assassins so this argument doesn't work and you cited just a few champions while crit adc (the role that the item was intended for) are struggling with it they want to build it but also really don't and sell it as soon as possible because it becomes a bad item after 3/4 items. This item needs a change because it's not doing what it's supposed to do at all. Also assassins already have a plethora of items to chose from they don't need it
: Well, a potential item to act like a cheep alternative to Mega IE could be Light Bringer Bow (new item) Builds from: Brawler Glove + Brawler Glove + Vampiric Scepter + Longsword + 750 Gold (2800 Gold Total) * 25 AD * 25% critical strike chance * 10% Life Steal * UNIQUE PASSIVE - critically striking an enemy champion burns them for 1.25% of their maximum health as physical damage over 2 seconds (2,5% total). Additional critical strikes against burning enemies refreshes the duration.
That's not a bad idea at all check mirage blade if you don't know what that is I think that would be a very good item for crit ad and life steal and should be implemented (with numbers tweak) but your idea is very interesting
: Yeah, funny thing that. See, he said that after Greg Street, AKA Ghost Crawler, had already said that there, in fact, were plans. And as it just so happens, at the time Greg Street was the Design Director of League, and Meddler the lead game designer. Or to put it simple, Meddler was his subordinate. What most likely happened is that he simply wasnt informed yet. <Removed by Moderation> Its unlikely to happen, but that doesnt matter. It can happen. It happens all the time. And no. It does not "erase randomness" (seriously what the fuck are you on about, do you really not understand how chance works?). I mean, youd imagine the fact that we had LCS games won by crit RNG before would be a dead giveaway, but you dont seem to even think about that. But just to get it more bluntly, while extreme results are rare, bad results are common. Lets say you have 30% crit chance, that arbitrary number you chose. Lets say in a fight you get 10 autos off. Critting on 6 means you got 50% damage from your 30% crit chance. And what are the odds? Well, we cant say exactly due to the logarithmic nature, but given that without that itd be 10%, its probably around 8%. Thats quite a lot. And the damage boost is pretty huge, given how much difference just having 4 more AD can be. Thats the problem. The randomness of crit doesnt create skill, what the fuck are you on about again. It devalues skill. The randomness isnt erased (please, just look up how statistics work, its not a subject I enjoy teaching much so Id rather not do that), and the randomness does matter. I mean, its won games in the LCS before. And no, its not subjective. Game design theory has been around for a while, and output randomness is something pretty universally recognized as a bad thing, among others by Riot. No, theyre not both random. The second is random. The first is not. The first has unknown information, and requires risk assessment and prediction, but its not random. The second is gambling. Youre not doing risk assessment (since you yourself created a scenario where your odds of success and failure are the same), youre just choosing between gambling, or playing it safe. <Removed by Moderation> Now, lets give you an example. Lets imagine its 2014, and youre C9 Sneaky. Youre playing against TSM, and in a crucial lategame teamfight, that will decide the game, its down to you and the enemy ADC, TSM Wildturtle, as to who wins the fight. Everything is going well, you have a health lead, and if things go well, you win the game. Oh but then it happens. You and Wildturtle both launch 3 attacks. You, playing corki, do consistent damage of course. The enemy Wildturtle is building crit, and has 50% crit chance. Now, if Wildturtle does not crit on all 3 (12.5% chance), you win. And then it happens. Wildturtle crits on all 3. You lose the fight, and the game. All because of Crit. Id dare say this is a better example, no? Kaisas standard build path is Stormrazor, Guinsoos, Runaans, IE. Or was, when I played her. Of course she goes crit. What are you talking about? <Removed by Moderation>
<Removed by Moderation> So 1st I doubt that players would be aware of a change before the design director and lead game designer talk about the purposes of the change. I don't think it can happen anymore you don't have proof of the logarithms because we just don't know the exact crit equation also "we cant say exactly due to the logarithmic nature" this is wrong we know how logarithms behave so if we knew the equation we would know exactly the probability and even more knowing the equations behind the randomness we would determine with absolute certainty which autos will crit or not it has nothing to do with logarithms just the fact we don't know the exact equation. To the one in the game both events were randoms, tho I have to give you that there was a lot of ifs so it was a bit strawmanny, but still those events were randoms because you don't know exactly what's happening in the mid laner's head or in the game's code. If you did they wouldn't be random anymore. Also to me LCS games are just another game just like my games or your blitz games if something happens extremely rarely but happens to have happened in an LCS game that doesn't make it worse also I don't think there was this bad luck protection in 2014, I really have a hard time finding any old ports about it, so the issue is resolved by the bad luck protection system, also you said it yourself "and if things go well" never count on everything going well you have to account for little unpredictable things such as crit. I rarely see IE on Kai'sa even back a few months when almost everyone took runaan's, IE was still not that used but okay if that's what you built whatever. You still pointed out things that were just wrong and a clear lack of knowledge and research and refuse to post links, if you posted one that absolutely proved your point sure but until then it's just a made up assumption based on the fact you don't like crit. Also critting on 6 out of 10 autos is 60% increase not 50% <Removed by Moderation>
: Right, the part that you missed, that itty bitty detail, was that her old passive was entirely useless, and in fact, as a result, most people considered Q to be her passive. And again, the core part of her current passive is the slowing. The fact that crits are altered for her is merely a bonus. What youre trying to argue is that the equivalent to Kalistas passive thing where her attacks cant be cancelled is the core of her passive. Actually, they did mention that they were trying it out back then. But you know. Why check? Why do research that the other guy clearly has done, when you can just lie and say that he hasnt and you have. Of course, who needs the truth, after all. <Removed by Moderation>Crit currently is not "potential burst". Its sustained, constant DPS. The fact that it sometimes burst is a problem they want to fix. Why do you think it is that they changed crit itemization to discourage buying crit during the laning phase? Oh but that would require you to have played ADC to understand. And again, you talk about a system you dont understand. Here is the deal. This "Bad luck protection", or Pseudo-RNG as its often (mistakenly called), is not linear. Its logarithmic. One of the key aspects is this: it *never* causes your crit chance to become 0% or 100%. It constantly gets closer, but its never 0. You could test it. Go for 1000000 autos with 90% crit chance, and I guarantee you, you will get a 5 streak without crit. But hey, why do that. Why test or do research about a system oyu clearly dont have a clue about (as evident by you writing "because riot removed almost all randomness from crit already."<Removed by Moderation> <Removed by Moderation> Crit is random. The "pseudo-RNG", more accurately dynamic RNG, works logarithmically. Every time you dont crit, the chance increases. The first time, it increases by a bit more than the second time, which then increases a bit more than the third time. Notably, it never hits 1000. Same with the other way around. It never hits 0. Well, unless the number goes so low the computer rounds down? I dont actually know how they handle that. <removed by Moderation> It means that you have output randomness. Where your entire plan, your entire gameplay, hinges on getting lucky. It ruins strategies, it devalues skill, and most importantly, it feels really bad. Riot even have made an entire video on input vs output randomness (you should watch that) explaining why output randomness is bad. So bad in fact, that Riot have already said crit will be reworked. Hence why youre alone in your belief that crit is totally fine. Now, how the rework is going to happen is unclear. They tested it with Ashe, but from what Ghostcrawler has said, that has had some downsides, so theyre looking at alternatives. Who knows what that alternative will be, but it will happen. And of course, you finish it off with a boldfaced lie. I mean, you couldve done actual research and seen that in the preseason, my most played champ was Kaisa (notably, uses crit), and the fact that I played a fair amount of ADC. You couldve also realized that that was my smurf, and that my main account has even more ADCs (primarily twitch). But no. Rather, you lie. <Removed by Moderation> And of course, accept that Crits days are numbered.
<Removed by Moderation> They did not test on ashe here's a port of Meddler on ashe "new" passive being a test "We do not have any plans at present to remove Crit or change how it fundamentally works for the game as a whole." <Removed by Moderation> It might be logarithmic I haven't found a post explaining in great details how the bad luck protection works but even if it is it's still so highly unlikely to happen that it doesn't affect skill expression for values high enough (I'd say around 30%) you can have a lucky crit with just glove or zeal and even then in extended fights it's not luck it's for the overwhelming majority of times just a flat 10% damage increase of your dps that both parties have to take into consideration (that can be called a skill btw anticipating the fact crit is something that can happen even with 10% chance) but past your 1st zeal item chances are reliable enough to completely erase randomness and make crit a predicable event. If you could link me the proof you seem to have (which I think is just made up but might eventually be true) sure but still doesn't change much of the reasoning. You say that randomness of crit is bad but that's subjective is worthless, the randomness of it creates skill in higher elo and is erased for higher values of crit chance to me it's good. If the fact that for people that don't take crit into consideration having a "lucky" crit erasing skill expression is very important to you then ye it's bad but it's all relative. Take both examples : 1st You know mid left but don't know if it's for bot or top and both you and your top lane are good targets do you take the risk of pushing and maybe getting ganked if he went for bot but getting a tower if he went for top or not? 2nd You just traded with the ennemy adc and you both have 10% crit and about 150hp one auto will not kill any of you but a crit would, in your entire trade no one got a crit so you know you are both on high crit chance due to bad luck protection do you take the risk of exchanging one more auto and hoping you crit and not him or you don't and go back? Both situations have 2 outcomes based on a factor that is random 1st it's another human being and his decision (he can bait, gank wherever he wants and even make the wrong descision so you can't be sure) 2nd is crit, what makes tanking your chances with crit worst than taking your chances with where your opponents are or not or any other decision that you may take where you're not sure 100% (like a fight when you're even your team might play it bad or the enemy might play it very well, you can also fuck up it happens) there is a lot of randomness everywhere in this game and it's a skill to know how to calculate the odds and act accordingly. <Removed by Moderation>
: Can I propose a 3rd direction? Change IE's passive so that it only gives bonus damage on crit when crit is overcapped. Eg, something like: > **Infinity Edge** > > BF + Pickaxe + Combine Cost > > - 60 AD > - 20% crit > - Unique: Crit chance from *other* items doubled > - Unique: For every 2% crit over 100, convert 1% of your critical strike damage to true damage (max: 20% true damage at 140% crit). It's not a complete solution (needs some tweaking), but the high level goals are: - Make IE rushable again. It's still a bad first item, but competing it first isn't trolling any more - BF -> Zeal item -> IE won't feel as bad since it's a better 2-item power spike vs non-tanks. - Better power spike vs non-tanks without buffing early tank busting; also reduce LW and IE antisynnergy - Now 80% crit with IE + Zeal item + LW upgrade is a viable build path when there isn't enough armor on the enemy team to warrant the true dmg - Alternatively, grab a second zeal item for true damage instead, at the cost of anti-synnergy with LW (you'd get a 2nd zeal *instead* of LW) - Allow more diverse crit builds (ie, can put crit on other items) edit after reading comments: If the true damage portion is not desirable, you could do the same thing but just with damage amplification instead.
If this direction was taken I would make the true damage a bonus damage instead of convert it and put for every 3 or 4 % instead of 2%, we need extra damage on this item the problem isn't just the absence of crit chance it's also the removal of the old passive, but old passive was very powerful I'll give you that so a 10% increase (effectively about 15% on squishes and 20/25% on tanky targets due to true damage) would be imo a better alternative
: Out of all the things that changed with crit itemization, I was happiest with IE. The whole reason it was changed in the first place is that while that can be balanced, it turns markmen into a burst class for other squishies. Not to sound too aggressive, but we get some insight on why that revert is the direction you decided to go? I was a little shocked to see it on the list.
The new IE makes ADC pretty much useless, there is only 2 specific ways IE is ever useful to an ADC now, being heavy tanks or being ahead, that said it's also pushed as a core item in all situation due to the crit chance being only on zeal items and IE, as a crit ADC you want to get high crit chance 60% is not enough and 30% is nothing so you need IE because building too many zeal items wil mean you have not enough ad to make as or crit worth anything. In the end we were left with something clunky that was both mandatory and situational making crit ADC an ok counter to tank or an all or nothing role (not high risk high reward like assassins that can still be played from behind literally all or nothing) The new IE is an aberration the fact you think the opposite makes me think you don't play crit ADC at all. Maybe a revert isn't the best way but it's infinitely better than what we currently have.
: First of all, you do know Ashe didnt always have this passive, right? The core part of her passive is her attacks slowing, not the crit thing. The crit thing was (presumably) a test run of removing the RNG. And no, this is intended. Riot have been very clear about the fact that random crits will be removed for good. Its really bad for the game. And no, its neither. Its the exact same as the current system in fact. Except, without the possibility of critting 5 times with 10%, or 0 out of 5 times with 90%. Or, more accurately, unlike Crit its perfectly balanced. Its strictly superior. You can. Its not likely, but its easily possible. You seem to have misread. Maybe check if youre reading correctly before going on a long rant about something that is obvious. Im sorry, but you are the one who is wrong and opinionated. Let me put this as bluntly as possible. Crit being random means all outcomes involve crit are tained by randomness. This reduces skill, and promotes luck. Making it extremely terrible and unhealthy for the game. Riot is aware of all of that. They have openly admitted all of that. And they have promised that crit will lose its RNG entirely in the future. You wont be able to stop that. Crit will be deterministic. So good luck with being wrong.
Ok so you are once again competely wrong "The core part of her passive is her attacks slowing" that is a pure lack of knowledge her old passive was exactly "If Ashe has not attacked in the last 3 seconds, she gains 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 Focus stacks per second. At 100 stacks, Ashe will Critical strike icon critically strike on her next basic attack. Thereafter, Focus stacks will reset to an amount equal to her critical strike chance." So it's like her new passive with crit interactions and everything they juste merged the passive with the Q and gave her a new Q so 1st few sentences already wrong. Then your assumption it was a test run is based on absolutely nothing but your opinion which is obviously irrelevant when presented with this amount of proof that you're not doing any kinds of research and have no knowledge about what you're talking about. "Its the exact same as the current system in fact" change potential burst into pure constant dps is not the same no you're completely oblivious to basic understanding of how this game's damage works. You can't it's not just unlikely there's a bad luck protection on crit that prevents you from attacking too many times without crit also not critting for 5 autos in a row with 90% (or critting 5 times in a row with 10% that'w the same probability) has a probability of 1 in 100000 when we take the bad luck protection (that also acts as a too much luck protection) it never happens ever you can test it, go into a game with 30% crit and auto 10000 times you should crit 3000 times and never have big strikes of both crit and non crit thanks to the bad luck protection. It just doesn't happen because riot removed almost all randomness from crit already. I have proven you were wrong and that your opinion is flawed and irrelevant due to you not doing any kinds of advanced works to support you opinions until then you have no value. <Removed by Moderation>
: No, just change it to be like Ashes passive. You can change the name if it bothers you, but making it non-random is crucial (and going to happen, according to Riot). And no, its still extremely random. It only changes the odds slightly, but with 50% chance you still can easily crit 8 times in a row, or fail to crit 8 times in a row.
That is the single worst idea I've seen so far 1st because it makes ashe passive basline for all so new passive for her or she's useless, and because that's not the intended mechanic at all and also it would be either useless or beyond broken imagine each auto being a +30% damage you would lose all burst from harass and gain insane reliability in team fight. So either your poke/harass and other times where you can only auto a few times is too low or you're way to powerful in figths either way not sustainable and much worse than anything I've seen yet. Also you say with 50% crit you can "easily" go 8 autos without crit in a row, it's just completely wrong let's do a bit of very very basic math that you apparently cannot grasp. the probability of not crittin is 50% let's assume you don't get the bad luck protection and it's completely random and unchanged depending on last roll 50% chance = 1/2 so not critting for 2 times in a row is (1/2)*(1/2) = 1/2² = 1/4 = 25% now the probability of not critting for n times in a row is 1/2^n so for n = 8 we have 1/2^8 = 1/256 = 0.00390625 ~ 3.9% chance You have a ~ 4% chance of attacking 8 times and not critting a single time and that's not even counting the bad luck protection on crits Now let's say that the 4% chance is right for it to happen once you have to have 25 time a series of 8 auto attacks in a row (on average it can happen at the 1st series but very very unlikely) 25*8=200 so you need to auto attack about 200 times with 50% crit chance for it to happen (again on average) let's say that each auto deals on average 150 damage in the mid game (both crits and non crits and mid game is where you would have 50% crit) 150*200 = 30000 damage so you would deal on average 30K damage before it has a realistic chance to have occurred once it's the damage you deal in the entire game so not likely to happen in a single game. And that's counting an unrealistic %age of crit, 60% is the closest we can archive doing all the calculations we have a 0.65% chance of that happening (from 4% to 0.65% with only a 10% chance increase I know it's called exponential google it) You are just wrong and opinionated your ideas are irrelevant because based on nothing do some research say something that makes sense please.
: that one i missed (: but its still to pricy for early and in late it will be too much
Not really it has the power of almost 2 items don't count it as one 5K gold item count it as 1.5 or even 2 items for the low price of 5000 gold it's 5610 gold worth of stats not counting passive increasing crit damage it's the best 1st item possible with even an ok build path because of the zeal in between would even be too good
: if youre considering reverting i.e., will you also revert every single buff youve given marksmen since the 8.11 crit item changes as a result? because if not, then pls keep that shit away from the game. marksmen and crit builds in particular were nerfed for a good reason. their item builds were ramping up way too fast while being way too cheap, not leaving other carry classes room to influence the game before marksmen came online. if youd revert the crit changes now AFTER youve given all of them partial compensation buffs, theyll end up stronger than ever. wed basically have the season 7 ardent meta situation back, and i dont think anybody wants that.
Marksmen were not overpowered the supports that are with them were, they got nerfed (recently rebuffed but nothing liek they were before) riot has failed to see this so did a large part of this community you included as we can see. Just instead of seeing an adc shredding everything and saying "ADC is broken rito Y" think a bit about why that would be, why didn't this adc die in team fight despite the 8K damage your team dealt to him? Oh ye that pocket heal he has next to him denying your entire team for no good reason. ADC are bad and it's nothing new they were bad for more than 2 years, crit adc especially, the only reason they were seen is the support making them barely viable and the people used to seeing an adc bot, now that we got undeservedly nerfed and our pocket heals are not what they used to be any adc other than crit is much better even non adc are much better than crit adc as bot laners. Also please point me to those buffs because appart from this patch I can't see any relevant buffs and even then they're really minor
: None of these changes actually change the issue that you're an unstoppable God when you get going, and you're a useless meme when you run into Lucian/Draven. Also, we don't need further stopwatch building encouragement. Hexdrinker needs its MR for the cases it's bought. It seems like all this change does is push stopwatch play incentives for LC$$$$ PLAY$$$$ and not so much the actual **improvement** of the game. I'm just going to call it out right there and be done with it. I absolutely hate it. The phantom dancer change is . . . like kind of cool? But, now you're pigeonholing Maw into this really questionable expensive niche item that nobody but bruisers would ever buy because of the price. ALSO, you're getting rid of the fact Phantom Dancer was designed to chase people down? The ad attached to it is nice, but what you probably didn't factor into this equation is the fact that . . . well, it'll actually be a first item meta virtually every game because it provides AD + CRIT + MOVE SPEED + A SHIELD vs supports, and junglers + running/chasing capabilities + a direct path into stop watch exchanges. There is actually no down side to rushing this item. You'll win every match up. So, in my honest opinion, this version of PD and its build path cannot exist. Essence Reaver is hilariously niche and hardly anyone will buy it beyond the champs that'll just make it look broken. I understand the ideology behind it. But, frankly some of your champs are way too binary at what they do, and have 0 competition despite the hilarious simplicity of their kit. You guys very rarely take that into account, and I suggest you do moving forward. The RFC and Shiv changes are neat. I.E is too expensive for everyone BUT YASUO and allows Yasuo to face roll since his late game is now . . . at 5k gold? MMM Not really a good idea there? This would just go back to warlords blood lust meta, and the old Vayne meta where she was supposed to be a "5 item champ." And walked into lane and 1v2d level 2 anyways. But, if you want a decent suggestion? You want one of the **BIGGEST** reasons that non-crit champs have consistently been super good? Beyond the fact their builds are a little cheaper . . . it's the fact they're not **FORCED** to follow a build path. They follow "some form" of a path. But, effectively . . . they can go whatever way they really want. Tanky AF adc that shreds tanks and can 1v1 mages and majority adcs? Check. Full lethality no scope one shot? Check. Pure bruiser items to face tank people? ((hexdrinker into GA or some crap like that.)) Check. The tl;dr is they can essentially build ANYTHING during the game and in some shape/way/form it'll work. It also scales decently. Crit doesn't have that luxury. And, if you want it to work, I suggest you find a way to branch it out. 'Cause as it is, the whole concept of crit is to go fast and click shit. Aaaand that creates a problem where once they REACH their build . . . they're unstoppable, but until they do . . . have fun inting. So, my opinion is to cut the items into pieces, lower the power spike of crit down a peg or two, buff its low end a **tiny bit** create variety that doesn't try to create another stop watch meta and give crit champs some choices. With that being said, some of the crit champs should have power taken out of their right clicking and put into their abilities. Key word here. _some_. The point of this is to not make Lucian/Draven useless. But, those two champs shouldn't just be able to walk into lane and auto win just because they exist. It's a very binary one sided play style, and it's also not fun for the crit scaling champ to not even come online until you're 6 turrets down praying for a penta. But, it also shouldn't be so one sided in reverse that the 6 item crit adc 1v9s because they **finally** came online. This is a very unhealthy curve and is the second biggest issue. These are just my 2 cent opinions. What you decide to do with it is up to you.
imo the fix should be to make crit items scale exponentially with one another but introduce defensive crit items so this way if you go full crit like on live you'll be the late game god but if you don't you'll be a bit less powerful but will have that extra hp and everything like a bruiser and things like that, even mages can get a little hp here and there in their builds adc can't at all. That said I really like to sell stormrazor for frozen mallet at least on Jinx (otp here didn't really test it on others) and it does have quite a few upsides but as a last item and selling storm it kinda feels bad i'd much rather buy some more offensive item or an item that does something for me than this second choice item
: If youre doing a larger bit of work on crit itemization, why not use that opportunity to finally completely remove the RNG out of it? Weve been told that that would happen in the long run anyway (due to it being the very unhealthy output randomness, rather than the preferrable input randomness), and this just seems like a good time to fix that whole mess.
So you mean remove crit? Because by definition crit is randomness, it's a CHANCE to deal twice de damage. And it's not that random since they made the chance increase a lot each time you don't crit so with 50% chance you're pretty much guaranteed to crit every other auto
: IE Direction 1 - IE Reversion : pls do that. IE Direction 2 : 5k for not even having crit so you have to buy atleast another zeal item which makes it 6300 atleast to be viable ... common you guys are better then this which is also too boring going for one item that cost 5k but on the other hand lategame adc would be way too op. [25% Crit Zeal Items] : how about you lower the gold and value you get from zeal down so it cost around 1100 and then make it so you have to buy 2zeal items to ge to rapid or statik even lowering brawlers down on gold and to 5€ crit so the overall item gets lower or the other idea replace kircheis shard. :the idea of a lower crit on zeal items but higher on as is not so bad if the ie change happens too. and i really think zeal items are the problem for crit to be either useless or broken not ie itself. hexdrinker : if you chaange that we dont have any mr item to build the overall idea with pd aint that bad but pls add mr to it : which kinda forces you into pd since you get more value out of the other zeal items i mean attack dmg crit as and def are too much essence reaver : no comment on that one i liked the first one that came out and after that rip [Multi proc Stormrazor] : now this one is cool really cool for offtanks : imagin renekton hitting you with his w you are basicly dead.same with jax and other offtanks they got the ms to catch up to you got gap closer and now that dmg thats too much for them. while trying to buff adc you would make offtanks way stronger by this. [Buffed Last Whisper]: thank god pls do this one. i am tried of dealing negativ dmg to tanks [New Maw] : this one looks good but the problem is if you build it as a third item you might get trouble with item space my ideas.
"Passife gives 50% crit chance" where do you not see the crit ???
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations
Hey very interesting to see you're giving a look into those problem but I have a concern is the increased rate of energized attacks conserved anywhere or is this mechanic from RFC completely thrown out?
: I didn't think I had to include the term effectively whilr I said it. Yes, everyone can "use" pings; but not everyone can "use" pings effectively. Then you consider not everyone can understand the meaning behind pings. If I play jungle, I can ping gromp, blue, river, and then on my way to mid. You may understand that I'm saying gronp, blue, and gank from river; but somebody else may think that is me being nearby and going in too early. Basically, sifferent skill levels.
Ye but different skill levels you said it yourself that's a skill it's like saying you can't pick mechanical champions if you're bad at mechanics, that's just stupid get good and learn not hard is it
Jo0o (NA)
: 2 turrets then baron Can’t fight till 6 Gonna powerfarm, dont push too hard They’re full ad, get armor and gg I’m going full tank, you should build damage Sorry, my mistake I can solo rift, cover dragon Bot lane extremely aggro, free ganks Mid flash 14:30 1-3-1 All mid NOW Let me split push, don’t engage 4v5
with intelligent pings you can ping things in the order you want them to be focused ping the items you wanna build ping where you go and gold to show you go farm spam ping armor or mr ping back if you can do smth alone and ping whta they should do and things like that only "my bad" can't be pinged which would be useless anyways
: Not everyone can use pings. Some can use chat responsible and for fun. A symbol that shows someone blocked you could lead to worse behavior in game. Just mute in game in you don't want to see people chat. Post game you can skip stats.
What do you mean not everyone can use pings everyone has amouse as far as I know with the amount of things you can ping nowadays everyone can ping anything
: #there is; omegalul
show a screen then appart from the in game mute there is none
: do it yourself consciously every game with /mute all while I can agree that are toxicity in pre and post game chat. I don't want my teammate(s) to come into champ select not able to see pre-game champ select for trades, strategies, bans, etc. Rito will never willingly crippled a team like that with an easy "disable all chat" option.
add a button to say you'd like to change role or you'd like to pick for someone or you'd liek to have your champ picked and something
Jo0o (NA)
: Pings are nice, but they don’t cover everything.
I have yet to see a good usage of the chat that a ping coldn't do even in non toxic games with nice people that just wanna comunicate to the best they just ping most of the time
: Life hack, move the chat box out of your screen and it'll stay there forever. Sometimes resets with some new patches maybe but you can just redo it.
This way you can't see who pinged or when like mid pings his opponent doesn't have flash anymore you can't see it
: You cant ping or communicate that you want a champ in pre-game. You can just leave after the match ends, nothings forcing you to read every line of text in the post game lobby.
You can prepick the few picks you want, like I wanna play either Jinx or Kai'sa most game in the prepick phave I just alternate between Jinx and Kai'sa
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Preseason Dev Update Number 3!
Do you plan on giving us back a crit rune? I loved the 1% crit rune especially as an adc main and now I feel like it left a void that hasn't been filled by any new runes
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: 2000 gold? What? IE got bumped by 300 gold, same for RFC, Shiv and Hurricane, while PD only got a 200 gold increase. And guess what. Now, for technically 900 more gold (the point that you technically reach your late game status), you get an extra 10 AD and 20% crit, on top of all the other base stats you get from levelling up, which are more than before. The change to ADCs is that so their powerspike only reachers after they get all 3 items, which takes slightly longer now, and before that, they are just weak. Also, you say the crit ADCs are bad now and very risky and that they lost 5% of their win rate, but you then go on to say that no marksman comps will get destroyed? How does that make sense?
Slightly? Not at all and before IE alone was good enough to not be garbage, IE+zeal item was a pretty okay power spike and 3 item was where you started to deal real damage. Now you have about 20% less damage at 3 item, IE alone is useless, IE+zeal item is near useless. I said 2000 gold because you need to build at something more like LW to be on the same power level And yes you do lose on damage at 3 item 10 ad some true damage and 20% crit isn't worth - 50% crit damage
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: Well, for one, crit carries are still extremely potent late game, but if you don't wanna risk it or if there are not many tanks in the enemy line up, you might want to consider just not picking an ADC.
Our late game is pushed by like 2000 gold and we're now all or nothing no hopes to do anything before 20 minutes and no hopes to do anything other than try to keep up from 20 to 35 minutes we don't have a late game because it's too easy to shut us down before and we take too much time to do anything, and by not picking an ADC you mean not picking a crit ad? Cuz no marksman comp lose vs marksman comps. If so then how about role diversity? And I'm a one trick so personally I'll just stick to Jinx and find something that works well enough but going on a no crit ADC is suicide for anyone that has played mostly crit ADC, there's a big gap in playstyle between ez,kai'sa,lucian and jinx,cait,trist. You realize crit ADC lost 5% win rate overnight doesn't that ring a "something went terribly wrong" bell?
AMz adam (EUW)
: ADC suck after new patch
Yup and they gave us stromrazor like it's a good item and we should build it first, gotta agree it has a smooth ass build path but the item itself is garbage, crit ad are dead until further buffs, like heavy nerfs to gold costs
Naranjo1 (EUNE)
: Vayne main too and this patch killed the playstyle I had for the last two years. But it wasn't even ADCs who were the problem, it was supports with their healing and shielding (aka Janna shield, redemption, heal). Riot just has to revert this whole patch & NERF SUPPORTS HARD. Just nerf Redemption, Janna Lulu Nami and put Ardent cencer to whay it used to be before the rework. Also bring back old warding (Sightstone, no wards on support item, only extra buffs, 2 oracles, etc.) It would be a hard nerf for supports, but at least it would make it more balanced. They should have only made ADC items more expensive, that's all (3.8k infinity, 2.8k statikk and rapid 2.7k PD etc.) Just looked up the win rates. Attack speed and crit using ADCs (except Jhin and Draven due to Stormrazor) have become the lowest win rate champions (1st is MF, lethality ADC) in the entire game (Vayne is at 117th place, back from top 40 last patch). Another patch, another failure.
> this patch killed the playstyle I had for the last two years. As a Jinx main I can say the same, pretty much all adc except a few are completely useless now
: > [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AeTvvEeF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-01T15:09:44.475+0000) > > {{champion:119}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:22}}{{champion:21}} Ashe is actually stronger now with the crit change and do more damage than rest of the ADC roster. As a Ashe main it's my turn to shine !
How would the biggest nerf to crit ever be good for ashe?
Toppien (NA)
: Jinx lives matter {{champion:222}} {{item:3070}} {{sticker:sg-janna}}
They broke her and all other crit relient adc
Rioter Comments
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: you got some point there but trust me thats the same on the other way around..autofilled adc who cant even farm properly. Honestly if you are not dumb you can play support with almost ANY champion...zed talon akali katarina brand velkoz lux teemo ashe caitlyn jhin xerath etc. i did it multiple time with each champ. So those who play poorly as support either troll, drunk or high, or boosted, or pissed off that they are autofilled.
I could say the same about ADC it's so easy to kite, farm and position you'd have to be dumb to fail at ADC right? Well not really it just feels very easy to me just like support feels easy to you. When I get autofilled support I either do nothing and my ADC dies alone because I didn't protect him/zone or do anything a decent supp would do, or he 1v2 them and we can steamroll, or I try something and I end up 0/5 by the end of laning phase.
: You guys want to nerf relic shield? Its already the worst gold generating item. When you use all three gold-items at maximum efficiency, you will see spelthiefs finishes the quest around 6:30, coin finishes around 6:40, where instead relic finishes way after 8:00 minutes.
If anything that's gonna buff it with more gold on cannon plus the relic able to secure it still won't make it finish at around 6 to 7 mins like the other but a fair price to be able to secure cannon minions if they become so important
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: even those who dont main these camps wont really feed, 90% of the time when i pick my main(brand) they try to counterpick it with lux/zyra/velkoz etc, even though they dont really play those champs. Honestly they dont play bad with them i just know my champ, and matchup way better and i can dominate the lane. That doesnt mean they play bad. They might feed just as hard on a nami soraka etc. If you are truly and adc main you can take advantage of your support zoning potential, therefore you can get a lead just by getting every CS, or take advantage of their dmg, and get kills left and right.(but at least assists)
If they main supp but not mage supp I can see them not being total idiots letting themselves die over and over but autofilled people either are way too aggressive, die and continue despite the enemy having more and more advantage, or they will not try to do anything in fear of failing. What I'm trying to do in both cases is just ignore him and cs I'm only gold/plat but even there supps and adc's can take massive advantage of an autofilled supp the game is almost an autowin when you're facing an autofilled supp I know I've won as much games as I lost due to autofilled either not knowing what to do and dieing, thinking they're a second ap carry and let their adc be their support or not knowing what to do and doing nothing. Playing with an autofilled supp isn't fun because your lane is shit and you have so much more chances of just losing and playing against isn't fun because you're juts rolling on them and not learning anything or doing anything special to win. We really need a "no autofill" buttons for people who value game quality over queue time
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: I smell bronze here... Yeah its bronze. No brand/zyra/velkoz who mains these champ will ever go 0/5 as support as long as the adc make use of their dmg. So blame yourself. Jungle is another topic they will tax if you get the kill, but once again what you describe only happens in tje deep regions of bronze low silver. No not even silver unless you piss off the support /jungler, and in that case once again you can only blame yourself for that.
Yes who MAIN that's the problem they're autofilled and they have no idea what they're doing they usually main things like assassins or bruisers and will pick a mage 1st time because "i need damage from supp to carry you all retard" then proceed to feed very hard early making bot unwinnable and everyone starts flaming each other. Honestly I don't know why we don't have a button "No autofill" already, sure you'd get longer queue time but seriously I'd take 5 more minutes to find a game if I can avoid autofilled people ruining every 3 or 4 games.
: There will never be ADC diversity because all they do is right-click. Riot needs to change their ADC philosophy, otherwise it's just about who has the highest auto attack damage.
That's not only wrong they don't just right click but even if that was right there is actually a lot of different ways of executing it you must not have played ADC a lot if ever think that
rogihoff (EUNE)
: zoe
The community of butthurts cried for a nerf and was perma banning her so they overnerfed her so the community would forget and now they are putting her in a balanced state
: "I'm a jinx one trick" Alright so. you're just bad.
Uhm what? Please expand, I was saying that because being a one trick I may not have enough experience with other champs and be far off (also because I like to just say it randomly) but what is the relation between being bad and being a one trick Jinx?
k wìx (NA)
: Please award a small bonus amount of MMR if you perform exceedingly well in games.
You're talking about positive score but that doesn't mean anything, everyone has bad games same with hard carrying it happens to everyone but not every time if someone is performing exceedingly well consistently he'll gain a lot of mmr and lp per game because his win rate will be just that much higer than the average same with people performing poorly consistently their win rate will be lower and they'll lose a lot of lp and mmr faster than others. Your "team full of idiots" makes me think you're just salty about a recent game just stop a bit and breathe your team is on average, well average just accept the feeders, the carries and the average players.
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Èreb Ysondre

Level 295 (EUW)
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