: Ok, first off my dude >...to shame each other for wanting custom skins >...to call each other cheaters for wanting the ability to customize the visual appeal of the game I said neither of those things, stop putting words in my mouth. >Thanks for your lengthy post, but alas we're not here to debate Riot's internal corporate structure nor are we here to debate why they aren't Bethesda. We're here to discuss custom skins and how and if they should be in the game. You cannot divorce that from Riot's corporate structure or the massiveness of league of a software project, or, in fact, the sheer amount of man hours they'd have to waste doing it for zero gain. You can't just put your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala BUT I WANT IT". It doesn't work like that. Skins are the main revenue stream of Riot. They never supported custom skins, they just ignored them, but now, due to some players abusing that privilege, they're putting a blanket ban of modifying any game files, and are deciding to refactor their client file structure (and honestly, having delved into that file structure before looking for some files, thank fucking god, because that was a horrible mess) without taking custom skins into regard which would add effort (and i mean like corporate effort, as in a ton of man-hours, not just 15 minutes of working a bit harder). You _CANNOT_ just ignore this and throw this aside since it's the main driver behind their actions. >The main idea is that if other companies can do it, so can Riot. They **can** and **should** do better, and we're here to let them know that there is support behind the idea of custom skins, both by players, and by creators (who are also players). The entire point is that they _can NOT_ do it, not with any reasonable amount of effort, anyway, and for a handful of players that use custom skins, that sucks, but for the rest of us, we get a more streamlined game, and the devs get a better file structure to work with, making further development easier, and less headaches trying to deal with some players staying the the gray zone of the TOS with custom skins. In essence, the cons of supporting custom skins outweight the pros _significantly_, and if you can't see that, that's on you. >Not to argue amongst ourselves why Riot cannot allow or do it, It's a discussion board. There will be discussion. I didn't really say anything offensive or aggressive. Hell, i was sympathetic even, since i used custom skins before, but you dismissed my entire post out of hand just because it's not 100% in line with your stance. At the high risk of sounding like a condescending twat, grow up, because the world isn't perfect and there are several sides to each story. If you can't put yourself in Riot's shoes and are just demanding things from your own perspective, they can and should disregard what you're saying outright, because it's just pure entitlement, and you come off as childish.
I was refering to other comments made on this thread, sorry for misunderstanding It's been rather busy morning for me and before school I wanted to answer the comments which lead to a rushed answer. Few patches ago it had a sideload option which only worked with texture and model files which still could be used as it never loaded anything besides that so it couldn't be abused in any way. They could reintroduce a similar/modified version of it which wouldn't entail a ton of man-hours as it wouldn't require editing file structure. Heck Riot could even restrict file types it loads even if it didn't anyway. As for your comment I liked it and I didn't intend to dismiss it but rather address that we can discuss it peacefully unlike other people have done. I understand your end statement cause we both misunderstood my message. I didn't anticipate for this post get so much attraction and comments which all need to be answered.
Sobx (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Šeriu,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=002d0000,timestamp=2019-03-15T06:59:23.902+0000) > > All I can say to him is > Thanks for your lengthy post, but alas we're not here to debate Riot's internal corporate structure nor are we here to debate why they aren't Bethesda. That's only because you know he's right and you have nothing logical left to answer to his points. Dismissing someone's points by saying "you're not here to discuss it, just to have people blindly upvote you" is not only stupid, but also shows that you know you're wrong. >The main idea is that if other companies can do it, so can Riot. The main idea is that these games have nothing in common and applying something to a shooter just "because tetris has it too!" is nonsense. So is your """argument""" right here. The games are different and comparing single player rpgs to competitive multiplayer games is just naive. And you most probably know that, you just don't want to admit it. >Not to argue amongst ourselves why Riot cannot allow or do it, or to shame each other for wanting custom skins, and definitely not to call each other cheaters for wanting the ability to customize the visual appeal of the game. But to show positivity, and to stand united, to tell riot "We want this, please make it happen". So you can argue why it "**can and should**" be in the game, but anyone arguing the opposite is just left with "we're not here to argue anything" and "we should stand united"? lmao, that's just pure gold. That's also not how boards or discussion works.
Thats because we truly aren't here to disscuss Riot's internal structure we have no insight of it. On the topic of companies I never specified what I was talking about, for example Dota 2 and CS:GO both have community workshops both games are massive in Esports scene. And doing better doesn't neccessarily mean inclusion of custom skins, the issue is lack of communication and this post was meant to reach them. That's why I said we aren't here to argue.
: I don't think any multiplayer game where players are encouraged to get an edge however they can will ever look kindly on mods of any type. They have to make a general policy, and by common sense, you'd make policy to have a system in place to deal with the worst offenders. That means they're generally against any modification of game files for any reason, because skins and VFX can most definitely be used to gain an advantage if used nefareously. Second of all, making changes to the filesystem and engine are large enough projects already, even without taking into account modding. If they are to set in stone a rule of never changing the file hierarchy in order to please a handful of people that would like to mod the game, they are placing a massive limitation to optimizations or refactoring in the future, hence why their stance has so far been "we made changes, deal with it. if you can make it work with it, go ahead, but we won't activelly support your practice", because supporting it wastes a ton of man-hours trying to work around keeping 3rd party mod compatibility intact. large software projects are hell enough as it is, even before trying to accommodate an amorphous group of 3rd party modders and all the overhead that causes, as well as business related conflicts of interest. Comparing to bethesda in general is pretty unfair because: - they have an entire community culture built around modding, removing that from future titles (however much they wish they could) would cause a complete boycott of the games, Just look at the backlash at paid mods - They already have a robust toolkit for modding in their Creation Kit as well as an entire framework for loading packages of game-data (the bsa/esm files) - They're singleplayer games that don't need to consider balance with regards to mods - there's a reason F76 only has non-gameplay impacting mods on the nexus, like retextures or radio songs. If they didn't have the aforementioned framework for mods, there's absolutely no chance any developer would spend the man-hours making and implementing such a system. - Those games cost $60 upfront, whereas League is free and needs to push skins to make a profit. You being able to load your own directly cuts into their bottom line I am very sad that the scene is dying due to business and company decisions, hell, i used custom skins a bunch before i got a job and could buy some official ones, but i cannot fault Riot for taking this course of action, due to my experience in the field and conversation with my game designer friends. EDIT: I know "it's a business decision" is hardly a satisfactory answer, but that's how it usually goes. The more companies grow, the more cold and calculated their decisions become because they have to be. I've felt this shift visceraly couple of weeks back when i moved from a 13-person consultancy company to a 400 employee card payment behemoth. The rules, the fucking rules everywhere, holy shit. Everything is so rigid and slow to process, because it has to be when dealing with that many people. I can only imagine what it's like in a 2500 employee company like Riot.
Thanks for your lengthy post, but alas we're not here to debate Riot's internal corporate structure nor are we here to debate why they aren't Bethesda. The main idea is that if other companies can do it, so can Riot. They **can** and **should** do better, and we're here to let them know that there is support behind the idea of custom skins, both by players, and by creators (who are also players). That's the intention behind this thread. Not to argue amongst ourselves why Riot cannot allow or do it, or to shame each other for wanting custom skins, and definitely not to call each other cheaters for wanting the ability to customize the visual appeal of the game. But to show positivity, and to stand united, to tell riot "We want this, please make it happen".
Sobx (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Šeriu,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=000a00000002000100010000,timestamp=2019-03-14T20:29:52.297+0000) > > As you can see in the in the quote you provided that it says "every contact we had with Riot has been supportive". ToS is a front they have to put up for 3rd party programs that they don't actively support. What I meant was some Rioters on forums like reddit and league boards have have confirmed that our work wasn't intrusive and malicious on top of that Riot Players support workers have helped us multiple times regarding the details about file changes in the past, the most recent Support ticket response started "I love to hear that you are creating new skins for the community to try out and experience" after which they directed us to the boards. I don't know what your goal is, maybe its to provoke something or to gain "karma", but I'd appreciate if you didn't take words out of context to spite us. Pretty much every support response starts with something in that manner, I dont see how that's relevant in any way in this case. That's just how they're told to interact with the players. They also don't have a lot to say about that, it's still a gray area and if/when you get banned or punished in any way in the future in case they change their mind or simply assume anything about those custom skins was malicious, they'll ""lovingly"" send you to the support page telling you that you used it at your own risk. Yes, I'm fishing for those upvotes ("karma"?) in the thread where anyone with my stance gets downvoted to hell by the hoard of mad abusers, you caught me, good job. :) Also I didn't take your words out of context.
I'm tired of arguing with you. If you don't like custom skins, fine. You made your case clear, but no need fill this thread up with pointless negativity just for the sake of arguing. Thank you for your contribution.
Sobx (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Šeriu,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=000a000000020001,timestamp=2019-03-14T05:40:37.844+0000) > > They are getting downvotes cause they are (...) spreading false information (...) that is what makes them less valid. >But what we are "mad" about is every contact we had with Riot has been supportive of our community and now we are here. haha, that's ironic. Since when saying... **For now, custom models and artwork sit firmly in the “use-at-your-own-risk” category, but we’re keeping an eye on them. We can’t optimize for assets we don’t develop, and if they do become a concern for any reason in the future (ie. they provide measurable player advantage), we’ll take action based on the stance we just laid out.** ...means they're "supportive"? Talk about spreading false information.
> [{quoted}](name=Sobx,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=000a0000000200010001,timestamp=2019-03-14T18:35:11.960+0000) > > haha, that's ironic. > > Since when saying... > **For now, custom models and artwork sit firmly in the “use-at-your-own-risk” category, but we’re keeping an eye on them. We can’t optimize for assets we don’t develop, and if they do become a concern for any reason in the future (ie. they provide measurable player advantage), we’ll take action based on the stance we just laid out.** > ...means they're "supportive"? > > Talk about spreading false information. As you can see in the in the quote you provided that it says "every contact we had with Riot has been supportive". ToS is a front they have to put up for 3rd party programs that they don't actively support. What I meant was some Rioters on forums like reddit and league boards have have confirmed that our work wasn't intrusive and malicious on top of that Riot Players support workers have helped us multiple times regarding the details about file changes in the past, the most recent Support ticket response started "I love to hear that you are creating new skins for the community to try out and experience" after which they directed us to the boards. I don't know what your goal is, maybe its to provoke something or to gain "karma", but I'd appreciate if you didn't take words out of context to spite us.
: They already made custom skins against ToS a while ago. They've mentioned it's a sacrifice they have to make to preserve the game; better file systems, and locking out people who intend to use these systems to cheat or equip a skin they don't own (which I know is a small percentage, but the possibility is still there, and there's no way to catch smbdy using editted files like this without generalizing to "all edited files"). I know that, a couple years back, some dude used custom minion health bars to put last hit indicators, rather than learn to last hit himself. Don't get me wrong: I love the custom skin community. It's just not really something Riot can support, because people can do things like the prior last-hitting mention, along with making boxes and circles around abilities to show their hit box and showing everybody's ranges in circles around them.
> [{quoted}](name=LuaDotExe,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=0026,timestamp=2019-03-14T14:15:59.737+0000) > > They already made custom skins against ToS a while ago. They've mentioned it's a sacrifice they have to make to preserve the game; better file systems, and locking out people who intend to use these systems to cheat or equip a skin they don't own (which I know is a small percentage, but the possibility is still there, and there's no way to catch smbdy using editted files like this without generalizing to "all edited files"). > I know that, a couple years back, some dude used custom minion health bars to put last hit indicators, rather than learn to last hit himself. > > Don't get me wrong: I love the custom skin community. It's just not really something Riot can support, because people can do things like the prior last-hitting mention, along with making boxes and circles around abilities to show their hit box and showing everybody's ranges in circles around them. The Skin changers still work at the moment, there's no stopping them cause they don't care about legalities. Cheats and spell ranges are part of scripts. Which aren't loaded by editing game assets. All those things are done by injecting dlls, you can edit the game client but its not gonna work like that. So locking down files is unnecessary as the new file system works without protection. I appreciate your support though.
ZaFishbone (EUNE)
: I prefer the trade off of not having custom skins, if it makes scripts harder to use, sry.
> [{quoted}](name=ZaFishbone,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2019-03-14T08:41:07.418+0000) > > I prefer the trade off of not having custom skins, if it makes scripts harder to use, sry. Surely we do want less scripting as well but like I have mentioned before those things are done via process memory editing and dll injection, neither of which is done by editing game assets.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sobx,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2019-03-13T20:05:04.089+0000) > > Fully agree and even moreso, I think custom skins should be prohibited. If you can modify how champions and their skills looks like, you can probably also sneak in more than that. And anything that can potentially give you advantage -big or small, visually or otherwise- should have no place in the game. > > tl;dr fuck that. I agree. It is weird how these comments get downvotes... Riot made its own game, why are people getting mad that you are not a part of it? If they wanted you to design their stuff they would hire you. They have a team which does that, and even you want it or not, some people will not buy skins and use custom ones. I am not saying I am on anyone's side, but this is a company, it is a business, you have to think money-wise. Is it convenient in any shape or form? No, it is not. And this is their game that they created, they will choose what skins go there and which ones don't. To be honest this is not just Riot, most companies and most games won't want that. And you all know it. I mean you can downvote all these comments but that doesn't make them any less valid. This comes from someone who has a sister who is a designer, and I do support creativity, I just think this is not the way. I am sorry if I hurt you in any way. Tech.-
> [{quoted}](name=TechnologicHero,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=000a00000002,timestamp=2019-03-14T00:54:26.340+0000) > > I agree. It is weird how these comments get downvotes... Riot made its own game, why are people getting mad that you are not a part of it? If they wanted you to design their stuff they would hire you. They have a team which does that, and even you want it or not, some people will not buy skins and use custom ones. I am not saying I am on anyone's side, but this is a company, it is a business, you have to think money-wise. Is it convenient in any shape or form? No, it is not. > > And this is their game that they created, they will choose what skins go there and which ones don't. To be honest this is not just Riot, most companies and most games won't want that. And you all know it. > > I mean you can downvote all these comments but that doesn't make them any less valid. > This comes from someone who has a sister who is a designer, and I do support creativity, I just think this is not the way. I am sorry if I hurt you in any way. > > Tech.- They are getting downvotes cause they are either disrespectful or spreading false information and mockery that is what makes them less valid. And I agree some people won't buy skins and use custom skins instead, but if people don't want to buy they won't buy regardless if there are custom skins or not. But what we are "mad" about is every contact we had with Riot has been supportive of our community and now we are here.
Ospraey (NA)
: Been Permanently suspended for custom skin usage. Summing up Riots response to me is them saying that they don't endorse it and can't tell if there is an advantage over other players.
> [{quoted}](name=Praeyer,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2019-03-13T21:49:08.885+0000) > > Been Permanently suspended for custom skin usage. Summing up Riots response to me is them saying that they don't endorse it and can't tell if there is an advantage over other players. Not sure what method you used or what software but Riot had declared custom skin installers like wooxy safe to use multiple times before. You must have used something else, over 3 years no-one we know had been banned for custom skins. With all due respect it seems like you are trying to shift the blame.
Sobx (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2eFTXJw3,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-03-13T16:20:36.189+0000) > > So, unfortunately, I don't see much coming of this. While I certainly see how this sucks, you have to realize that you have forever been exploiting loopholes that were never guaranteed to be there, never supported, and never allowed. > > Riot has started making changes that may have inadvertently closed the loopholes that you were using, but that doesn't matter because you were never supposed to be using them in the first place. Custom skins have never been officially approved or supported, and will never be. League is not a design studio or a moddable game, and it won't be. Fully agree and even moreso, I think custom skins should be prohibited. If you can modify how champions and their skills looks like, you can probably also sneak in more than that. And anything that can potentially give you advantage -big or small, visually or otherwise- should have no place in the game. tl;dr fuck that.
Something that's not visual is not done the same way. Something more malicious is done by injecting DLL files or editing process memory. Anyways thanks for your opinion.
Rioter Comments
: Not possible they don't keep their old champs . They don't even keep their shit from last patch
Yeah right. IF you looked at files you could find season 2 or earlier files. I am League of legends modder i know some stuff... :3 {{champion:21}} heres mf to not upset you too much.
: Allowed? There's literally hundreds of threads by ppl in EU boards, who use custom skins and get perma banned for it... Just check around. The "3rd party software" bans are 99% because of this...
You got mixed up with skin loaders which load other skins of riot. But Riot has said that its okay aslong as the skin isnt same as Riots original.
: 3 Project skin ideas; 1 I would love to see in game
You can always use custom skins. Which are allowed by Rito. Currently there is only project jhin : https://mapskins.com/2016/02/01/project-jhin/
Rioter Comments

Šeriu

Level 174 (EUW)
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