: Just to clarify; Rant was created so people could vent frustrations there without creating a toxic environment for the rest of the board. And I reassure you, Rant is much more self-sustainable than G+. The reason G+ shut down isn't because we were lazy or that we were being stubborn, but when in a day you get 5 G+ submissions, and 3 of them is a one sentence "fuck riot" comment, it was hard to actually promote good posts when we barely got any/got spammed with a lot of low-effort threads.
> [{quoted}](name=Attysu The Poro,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=oXu8xQ5v,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-05T22:02:07.333+0000) > > The reason G+ shut down isn't because we were lazy or that we were being stubborn, but when in a day you get 5 G+ submissions, and 3 of them is a one sentence "fuck riot" comment, it was hard to actually promote good posts when we barely got any/got spammed with a lot of low-effort threads. PLEASE, I call bullshit on that THIS (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/OdNAMXj6-what-is-the-scenario-for-a-proper-culls-usage-in-the-post-823-league) was what you'd call "a low-effort thread" you thought wasn't worthy of Gameplay+? And at the time the thread your moderation team rejected found success on regular Gameplay The moderation on G+ was not made to admit good content, was made to admit threads written in a certain way regardless of the quality of its content. You can pick literally the majorty of the post made in the last weeks/months, and you'll find multiple example of threads which feature the same kind of things said on the same argument on regular Gameplay, or frankly uninteresting threads written wery well. That's undeniable. I don't doubt the fact that Rants is much more self-sustainable, but that means accepting for boards quality (and thus engagement) to go down, not up
: There's a huge difference in execution between the Gameplay+ and Gameplay, and Gameplay and RANT. Gameplay+ was only high-quality posts. This meant moderator approval and shit. Rants is for actual low-quality rants. In both cases, moderate quality posts stayed in Gameplay. This just means you don't have to sift through shit to find decent but not great ideas. Instead, **all** of the shit is gone from gameplay (although there might be bad ideas, there's no longer going to be blatant shitposts along the lines of "REMOV YASOU W PASSIVE E AND MAKE R DEAL 534% OF HIS MAX HEALTH IN PURE DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11")
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=oXu8xQ5v,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-03-05T12:45:57.598+0000) > > There's a huge difference in execution between the Gameplay+ and Gameplay, and Gameplay and RANT. > > Gameplay+ was only high-quality posts. This meant moderator approval and shit. > The problem in Gameplay+ execution is that moderation approval happened not based on rules promoting good quality content, but based on rules that promoted only content hat was written in specific kind of formatting regardless of current quality of the content Threads like this (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-plus/6EdsjREe-critical-hit-chance-should-be-removed-entirely-and-replaced-with-an-auto-attack-multiplier) was admitted.....while this (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/OdNAMXj6-what-is-the-scenario-for-a-proper-culls-usage-in-the-post-823-league) was rejected Both of these are more than worthy for Gameplay and written with articulated English...if you are going to judge by quality of the content alone, while the first was admitted while the second removed. There have been hundreds of post talking about removing crit chance, and that one doesn't add ANYTHING that hasn't have been yet discussed in the hundred other valid Gameplay post That kind of moderation made Gameplay+ devoid of costantly new and fresh contents, and lead to its slow death because it wasn't seen worthwhile anymore to keep up The guy who you answered is right, the logic is flawed
: CLG, loses again
The problem for CLG was not picks or Wiggly performance though. Somehow Impact lose a 1vs1 as Jayce vs Ornn early game, with Darshan basically evening Jayce usual farm gold lead...and then CLG rather than focusing on the winninng match-up in top lane where they could potentially shut down Jayce for the rest of the game, start to put all their focus on forcing plays in the bottom half of the map, which make no sense from a macro point of view. And yes, Darshan himself didn't help by dying in a stupid way to TL trap on top shortly after and giving the kill back , but even after that Jayce lead was stabilized around only 10-15 minions and not growing anymore, which means Ornn was going to win the match-up going forward by a ton. CLG lost because they had very poor macro decision, due to either bad shotcalling or to overaggressiveness to speed up the gane given by lack of faith in their individual skills to win a longer, drawn out game through teamfighthing
Keyru (NA)
: [UPDATE 2/26] Boards Testing and Thoughts
Sigh. Sorry if I'm pretty blunt Kiryu, but who the hell is suggesting you that THESE are the major problems with boards? I mean, I'm totally fine with both current traditional style forum or reddit style forum, which both have their advantages and disadvantages, but the major issue remain giving more options for users to filter what is considered good content for them, not the boards format How do you think the proposed change will help in this matter? What are the pros and come in your/Riot view? Change just for the sake of showing that Riot is doing something is frankly pointless, I'd like that you would better explain your train of thought before taking steps, whatever they will be
: > [{quoted}](name=General Matty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=otE7IlRE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-25T17:55:18.117+0000) > > Support is fun, but we never get acknowledged for how much we actually do in a game. It's always the 20/0/0 Vayne that gets the praise even though the support is 1/0/24 or something. We never get noticed, and it makes me sad every time i play support and do really well. Don't be sad friend. Were not here to show off. we are her to have fun.
> [{quoted}](name=Malfectious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=otE7IlRE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-25T18:43:30.508+0000) > > Don't be sad friend. Were not here to show off. we are her to have fun. Yup, but I don't get fun if people that does not recognize the importance of support are d**ks and ignore my calls causing stupid fights and make me lose game in a stupid way It must be stated more often that support is just as good as other roles depending on your personality and how you want to enjoy a game like this
: Gameplay/Client Feedback Megathread: One +, One -
**Positive** It finally look like Riot got the ball rolling on the Rotating Game Mode project, after a questionable start a lot of the event and new maps feel like they are not simple an asset recycle, but something that can stand on their own **Negative** After all these years, the game still does nothing to teach some fundamentals regarding map control and awareness, and does not explain how purposedly ignoring certain kind of calls can severly affect your chances to win to the point to almost constitute trolling/intentional feeding. These things also increase toxicity and negatively reflect on the ability of report system to cacth bad players in the net (which in turn further increase toxicity)
y0r1ck (NA)
: If they think that their rants are balance issues, then mods will simply remove the post. Forcing users to decide if their balance post is a suggestion or feedback ensures that people actually try to have feedback or suggestions in their post. Creating the new structure I suggested organizes gameplay; it moves the shit into a toilet, and ensures new balance posts have topics that are clear and debatable.
> [{quoted}](name=y0r1ck,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AX0xz8ob,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-02-25T20:22:12.566+0000) > > If they think that their rants are balance issues, then mods will simply remove the post. > > Forcing users to decide if their balance post is a suggestion or feedback ensures that people actually try to have feedback or suggestions in their post. > > Creating the new structure I suggested organizes gameplay; it moves the shit into a toilet, and ensures new balance posts have topics that are clear and debatable. Nope That would just mean that Boards moderation teams and eventually whatever Rioters has access to board administration tools can decide what is acceptable to be consideredas gameplay issue in their forum and what is not. Which, I mean, is something they can potentially do, but the current moderators have said theirselves in various threads rregarding the current issue that they do not want to do it since it would limit users freedom to express their complains to Riot Basically everyone with some experience in moderation think that to reward and promote virtuous discussion is better than use moderation powers with iron fist...
y0r1ck (NA)
: Improving Boards: A Few Drastic Ideas and One I Think We Need
How to improve Boards? Easy answer Relaunch Gameplay+ again, but this time curating and approving threads with criteria based on originality of the subjects and/or the high quality of the arguments, rather than do what they disposizione by prizing formatting and writing long essays...heck, if anything, succinctness and essentiality should be encouraged and wall of text heavily penalized in the evaluation of what threads are worthy to be approved if those explanations are redundant or not relevant to explain the subjects of the threads. Also, give mods/Herald/whatever they are called the power to move and "promote" regular Gameplay threads worthy of praise or with interesting discussion ongoing to the new Gameplay+ to have those sticking out for longer and catch people attention, and always keep that section alive Boards does not need a special places/sections for people that want to keep using Boards like they are currently doing...the suggested vent section is a dumb idea because people would keep pushing what they think are Gameplay problems in Gameplay, so you are not going to stop those rant threads. Same for estabilishing new rules, as long as you follow the common netiquette practices, why create other complications? Boards need a place for people that do not like how Boards currently work or think are useless, where they partecipate and enjoy the kind of discussion that is currently drown out.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZgXwhmaP,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-02-24T13:30:22.861+0000) > > Boards are cluttered with a ton of very similar threads in 2-3 flavor of the week argument that get all the spotlight and this basically make super hard to highlight current issues of the game. > > And the current Boards moderation team is the major responsable for the Gameplay+ boards project failure, which could/would have fixed a large part of the problem, and would have not make current Boards look like being largely useless at best/ a "cesspool" at worst > > RiotAugust words are disrespectful for the boards users that do not have/do not want to use different channels than official ones to comunicate with the Devs, but Boards moderation team deserve no sympathy at all So let's take your idea and run with it. Moderators start becoming harsher on restrictions to posts. Gameplay would take the absolute brunt of this. Low effort (1-2 sentence "hahah fuck meme posts about balance) and low discussion posts are removed. We've now lost a sizeable chunk of gameplay because often the discussion is less discussion and more confirmation bias. We could also start implementing megathreads about events and cut down boards spam to a single post, such as the PAX situation. Do you know what one of the most prevailing arguments I see swung around boards is? That it's the "last bastion of true fans and truthtellers" in the league community. People think Boards is the only place that has free speech anymore (it's not) and that Reddit only loves on Riot (it's not). As an example: The most upvoted post is criticizing Riot for their change to VGU updated particles. Yeah, nothing but love and bootlicking there. So now we're gonna start cutting down threads, removing bad memes about stuff and just take an iron-fist approach to clean up the boards. People will _hate_ that. And I don't mind dislike the change. They're gonna revile these changes. While we did cut G+, one of our plans was to remove Gameplay and make it "Rants". However, rants couldn't show upon the front page but G+ could. Suddenly we're getting cries that we're stifling free speech, we're hiding the truth and (probably the most fun) that we're just protecting Riot by condensing posts to a mega thread or something inane like that. Part of why we can't act is community perception. If you want us to start changing things, players need to stop adding to the pile or defending these threads.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZgXwhmaP,comment-id=00120001,timestamp=2019-02-24T16:50:57.016+0000) > > So let's take your idea and run with it. > I'm going to stop you right here, right now, because you are clearly arguing in bad faith, and I'm not going to accept that if we are going to debate here, because do not try to assume you are talking with people that do not know what they are talking about (which ironically was the same RiotAugust sentiment about the boards users compared to PBE users...); years ago I was a moderator on a fairly active sports forum, so I went through that kind of work and so I do know how does it actually work I especially mentioned Gameplay+ because that project started out exactly on the assumption that a curation system run by moderation team could ease your overall work flow, since allowed you to highlight threads that would have been drowned by the usual trends that happen in boards daylufe, that were sent ON VOLUNTARY BASIS by the community So you basically could direct the majority of your work to give a safe space that could work to help both the users and the devs to get a "safe space" where they can find constructive cues for discussion/work, while leaving the rest of Gameplay fgoing with the kind of issues that currently highlights (and alongside a sea of rants threads, you can find at times good arguments for discussion too) Instead, we ended up with that https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-plus/OByzGOoq-a-postmortem-on-gameplay?comment=0003 So, if you want to really debate, start from the points I hgihlighted in that comment in the postmortem thread on Gameplay+...then we can debate from an even ground
: > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZgXwhmaP,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-02-24T13:30:22.861+0000) > > If the reaction to RiotAugust words means thar the current bunch of Volunteers resign and get replaced by new moderators...that's only for the better!!! > > Boards are cluttered with a ton of very similar threads in 2-3 flavor of the week argument that get all the spotlight and this basically make super hard to highlight current issues of the game. > > And the current Boards moderation team is the major responsable for the Gameplay+ boards project failure, which could/would have fixed a large part of the problem, and would have not make current Boards look like being largely useless at best/ a "cesspool" at worst > > RiotAugust words are disrespectful for the boards users that do not have/do not want to use different channels than official ones to comunicate with the Devs, but Boards moderation team deserve no sympathy at all ...i mean the volunteers do have familys
> [{quoted}](name=purpleKnight,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZgXwhmaP,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2019-02-24T16:39:32.451+0000) > > ...i mean the volunteers do have familys Except you know, it is not a problem with time. It is a problem with how they were working Check the kind of threads that were allowed on Gameplay +, and tell me if a big part of those were really worthwhile
Ulanopo (NA)
: Personal Thoughts on RiotAugust
> [{quoted}](name=Ulanopo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZgXwhmaP,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-24T05:36:20.491+0000) > > https://i.imgur.com/WPwbLsd.png[/img] > > _**I CANNOT AND WILL NOT ACCEPT THIS APOLOGY**_ > If the reaction to RiotAugust words means thar the current bunch of Volunteers resign and get replaced by new moderators...that's only for the better!!! Boards are cluttered with a ton of very similar threads in 2-3 flavor of the week argument that get all the spotlight and this basically make super hard to highlight current issues of the game. And the current Boards moderation team is the major responsable for the Gameplay+ boards project failure, which could/would have fixed a large part of the problem, and would have not make current Boards look like being largely useless at best/ a "cesspool" at worst RiotAugust words are disrespectful for the boards users that do not have/do not want to use different channels than official ones to comunicate with the Devs, but Boards moderation team deserve no sympathy at all
: What is the scenario for a proper Cull's usage in the post 8.23 League?
**Necro Bump**, as this thread just returned in my mind after the Gameplay+ postmortem post Months later after this thread was done, with League currently on patch 9.4 after the game received the preannounced and expected marksmen items rework/update in patch 9.3, Cull still got totally untouched and remains in a terrible spot. It just seems Riot balance team does not even care anymore about the niche this item should currently fill in the game, since they are not touching Cull even in the context of a large marksmen items update, which is even more baffling when they actually immediately acted on gold generation problem with support items during patch 9.3 on the infamous Kleptomancy-support item synergy (and not touching Klepto whcih was a baffling decision in his own)
: Sick and tired of this ********
The only thing we can do, is encourage and promote A PROPER USE of the report function It is easy to spot when someone is bad/had a bad game, but tried to play positively and improve their mistakes in the game but failed, thus deserving no blame, from when people regardless of being actually decent skilled players lose you games because they act like d*cks but do not get reported and even actually report you/get you reported because they are sensitive babies that can't face the reality of the situation A ton of people will just not spend 1 minute in the post-game screen to report, and that just infuriates me... as well as the people that are just blindly focus on K/D (often ignoring even assists) which many times says absolutely nothign about what decisions actually lost the game, and if a guy with a worse score than another was acctualy making the right calls but got completely ignored by some entitled a**hole leading to a bad fight and surefire loss when the game could still be won
: A postmortem on Gameplay+
Gameplay+ board was a great idea on paper, but didn't work out ENTIRELY because of board moderation fault. A TON of potentially good and interesting thread gots rejected not because there were bad argumentations in it or they were written in poor english/with poor grammar, they got rejected because they didn't compply with the way too strict and honestly ridicoulous formal rules. It didn't matter what you actually wrote in the thread, as long as you wrote an essay or a pseudo-one if form of a long formatted wall of text it got admitted even if the original thread was filled with a whole full of nothing or straight bad argumentations...which make no sense when the goal of Gameplay+ should have been to spotlight worthy discussions that get buried on regular Gameplay board in favor of the usual kind of threads When this thread ( https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/OdNAMXj6-what-is-the-scenario-for-a-proper-culls-usage-in-the-post-823-league) get rejected by Gameplay+ because of "guideline rules", and then enjoy a good amount of success on regular Gameplay despite the very unpopular topic while this (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-plus/8wsxAeO6-karthus-ultimate-is-too-binary-and-is-in-need-of-more-baseline-functionality) or this (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-plus/6EdsjREe-critical-hit-chance-should-be-removed-entirely-and-replaced-with-an-auto-attack-multiplier) get approved the problem is how this sub-board got mismanaged seems evident to me No disrespect towards the guys that posted what are legit starting point of discussion for regular Gameplay threads - I looked at those randomly because those threads appeared in the recent section just below this postmortem one, but I could have picked many other from recend and new section - but honestly those topic were either less interesting (Karthus one) or retreaded for the 100th time from Gameplay discussion without adding any major argument (crit one) than the thread on Cull, so I have really question where the standard were set and the line was drawn there
Zezilian (EUNE)
: Why Zed got buffed ?
Those changes weren't only a straight "buff", that was technically an overall rebalance of Zed mechanics and a shift in power levels around his abilities, which is rather fair given the state Zed was in The thing I don't really get is the W buff on shadow recast range, jumping from 1300 to 1950 is WAAAAAY too much, and make what are bad match-ups against Zed basicaly unplayable, at any level, since he get extremely safety right now in winning match-ups...and for a champion that can at times being really oppressive, that's not a good direction to go, especially if he some time down the line he get buffed from items/runes changes 1500-1600 would be fairer and would have still currently helped him, tbh
: > [{quoted}](name=SuffocateMeDaddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=002f0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-14T17:54:06.886+0000) > > YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT Fucking Faker started his career as a support main on SKT but then he was put on mid lane because of his lack of skill THATS FUCKING RIGHT. > > No they dont. Have you ever played 35 minute game when both teams are equally farmed up? Did you fuck up just once in that game? Did that fuck up loose you the game? LCS professionals will abuse one mistake you did in lane 30 seconds ago. Forgot to put up ward? Get ganked. Fucked up minion wave? Get outleveled and insta dove lvl 6 with no counter play. > > The fact is that every 3rd solo que diamond 5 support main is Janna player that shielded her adc with optimal build with optimal frequency. Imagine if 1/3rd of jungle mains in diamond was master yi main that did same exact thing EVERY SINGLE FUCKING GAMe. Imagine if 1/3 of top lane mains were tryndamere mains without any wave management skills. Thats the state of support and enchanters. > > If I had to choose to listen to someone who plays flex champs every game has at least 5 different picks for his role, played 560 games, swaps roles regularly, and dude that plays different variations of Janna, MY CHOICE IS CLEAR. Huge portion of support mains ARE FUCKING CLUELESS. Best shot callers in solo que are MID LANERS BECAUSE THEY ROAM ENTIRE FUCKING GAME AND CAN ESTIMATE POWER LEVELS OF CHAMPIONS ON THEIR TEAMS MUCH MORE CONSISTENTLY THAN ANYONE ELSE, AND JUNGLERS FOR SAME FUCKING REASON. And this is comming from someone who plays exclusively top lane and doesnt fucking bother checking who is fed and when he is fed. I admire people who can shotcall. But it aint support players. At least not in solo que. > > Supports lack knowledge. Egirls getting carried to top 2% by their boyfriend be my evidence. My friend failing at every role but support be my evidence. Numerous egirls playing 3 different variations of janna be my evidence. SHOW ME ONE SUPPORT MAIN THAT HAS SAME LEVEL OF SUCCESS ON OTHER LANES. If that's the case, then you surely make for a Challenger level support, being so much more knowledgeable and mechanically skilled than these Diamond whipping girls getting carried to top 2% by their boyfriends. Surely two highly knowledgeable and mechanically skilled players in the lane have an insurmountable advantage over one. You ought to shit all over them. Surely we can take on faith that you aren't because what...you consider it unsportsmanlike to take candy from babies? Well, guess what? The fact that you are not speaks to the fact that your ability to assess other players' abilities, especially for the whipping girl role, is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of Iron II at best. That's the actual evidence that you haven't got the first clue about the whipping girl role. {{champion:74}}
> [{quoted}](name=Sorostaran,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=002f00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-14T19:52:07.035+0000) > > If that's the case, then you surely make for a Challenger level support, being so much more knowledgeable and mechanically skilled than these Diamond whipping girls getting carried to top 2% by their boyfriends. Surely two highly knowledgeable and mechanically skilled players in the lane have an insurmountable advantage over one. You ought to shit all over them. > > Surely we can take on faith that you aren't because what...you consider it unsportsmanlike to take candy from babies? Well, guess what? The fact that you are not speaks to the fact that your ability to assess other players' abilities, especially for the whipping girl role, is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of Iron II at best. > > That's the actual evidence that you haven't got the first clue about the whipping girl role. > > {{champion:74}} Exactly If anything, he is part of the reason why support is seen by ignorants like him as the "egirl role" or some other shit he is sprouting. Those people that think like that are the kind of a*sholes that when playing carry roles are not going to listen to anyone because they are entitled brats, and will start to argue with people on their team when they are called up when they have some terrible play or even worse will start to not care anymore and do dumb shit or trolling, and penalizing the good shotcalliing supports that by roleand gold income have less possibility to carry a shitty deadweight player in a team, especially tank supports - that coincidentally have a relatively lower pick rate -
: > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=002f0000,timestamp=2019-02-14T12:11:34.857+0000) > > How to spot some noob that has never played support Diamond 3 on eune 67 lp peak last season as top/mid main. Diamond 4 78 lp EUW as adc main. Diamond 5 21 lp Euw as jungle main. Diamond 5 0 lp as on EUW as mid lane main. > Support is the role that require THE MOST game knowledge, because you have the majority of warding duties in the team Do you know what is funny about all those games I played? I havent yet met support main that had higher game knowledge than wards placements. Lane pressure knowledge? Next to none depended on champion those supports mained. Worst of all were enchanter mains. All they ever knew was how to point click shield me and when to polymorf enemy. Pressing exhaust when shit goes down, is not a game knowledge. Most skilled support mains I have played with even duod with learned one essential skill. Roaming mid when your adc went back to buy and you came back to empty lane. That is difference between plat 1 support and diamond 5 support. You know who else has to know when and how to roam? Mid lane, Jungler, Top laner. Some support mains learned how to manipulate minion waves on very surface level. Do you know who else has to do that too? Adc, mid AND ESPECIALLY TOP LANE. Mechanically most of support mains I have met were very below average, especially those who tried to play actually difficult champions such as thresh when they main lulu janna and soraka. Mechanical skill however is not impressive a least bit when your abilities most of the times are point click spells or they are as big as lane. So, what exactly is the game knowledge support mains have to have, in order to climb? >and you are the one that can more easliy make macro calls about when someone on the sidelane should push or group or move to a specific spot Also do you think supports make makro calls? Really? I get it you guys like LCS and its either support or jungler making macro calls. That aint because they are good at it. They can actually afford to watch map more than anyone else. Do you think solo que supports do that?
> [{quoted}](name=SuffocateMeDaddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=002f00000000,timestamp=2019-02-14T12:50:37.034+0000) > > Also do you think supports make makro calls? Really? I get it you guys like LCS and its either support or jungler making macro calls. That aint because they are good at it. They can actually afford to watch map more than anyone else. Do you think solo que supports do that? Well, the pros which are actually the guys that plays League the best in the world, have pretty often the support as the role that makes the call. And IS NOT because they can afford to watch map more, literaly every player watch the other lanes other than their own The fact that there are a lot of bad soloQ supports do not change that because you say so. Well, actually supports calls tend to be ignored by players in other roles in SoloQ because they think they should command the team since they are the carries, so if you are going to go down that reasoning pipeline, I'd say that it is really a 2 way street, and there are just a ton of people that do not care about playing wall/are dumb/are assholes/just suck in all elos at all roles, so I suspect you get a ton of negative bias pinpointing a supposed lack of knowledge specifically on supports
: Support has way too high agency over bot lane. For a role that requires least game knowledge to be successful I do not understand what are you guys bitching about. Furthemore this will nerf mages on bot such as Brand, Velkoz, Zyra much more than enchanters and tanks you guys claim to love. Furthemore, cancerous strats like karma mid with spellthief and cleptop outfarming their opponent with 1/3 of their CS will die. So what exactly is your issue here?
> [{quoted}](name=SuffocateMeDaddy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=002f,timestamp=2019-02-14T11:18:36.535+0000) > > Support has way too high agency over bot lane. **For a role that requires least game knowledge to be successful** I do not understand what are you guys bitching about. Furthemore this will nerf mages on bot such as Brand, Velkoz, Zyra much more than enchanters and tanks you guys claim to love. Furthemore, cancerous strats like karma mid with spellthief and cleptop outfarming their opponent with 1/3 of their CS will die. So what exactly is your issue here? How to spot some noob that has never played support Support is the role that require THE MOST game knowledge, because you have the majority of warding duties in the team and you are the one that can more easliy make macro calls about when someone on the sidelane should push or group or move to a specific spot
: I know Sylas isn't OP overall but what the actual fuck is that healing?
Honestly, i feel like the problem is that his bonus healing when he is under 40% health should not be doubled by default, but should depend on the enemy missing health, being higher against full health enemies and lower against champion with low health Sylas W is meant to give him a fighting chance when he is behind and on the brink of death, it should NOT completely reverse a fight if Sylas is at 25% hp and the enemy at like 40% when losing a skirmish and Sylas is out of damage spells Sylas is frankly not that good right now, but is totally annoying when he can actually autowin a melee AA sustain fight against a bruser or a tank that should trump him in this scenario thanks to the W increased damage vs low-ish enemy health + bonus healing + passive interaction
: The old Klepto and new Klepto suffer from identical problems. Mainly that it becomes highly problematic when a ranged champion uses it against a melee champion. The old Klepto was abused hard by Viktor (and Ezreal) and the new one is being hard abused by multiple ranged top laners (and Ezreal).
> [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PucEfK71,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T16:10:31.739+0000) > > The old Klepto and new Klepto suffer from identical problems. Mainly that it becomes highly problematic when a ranged champion uses it against a melee champion. The old Klepto was abused hard by Viktor (and Ezreal) and the new one is being hard abused by multiple ranged top laners (and Ezreal). And that's exactly the definition of a problem about its overall power, so reverting to previous state eliminate some problems and create others You need to hit Klepto gold income hard, and then see the results, period. At that point you see if you can do QoL changes to it, like reverting to old system or inserting other restrictions/additional effects or just discard the rune completely. Riot has done ANYTHING except reduce Klepto gold income, including items tangentially related like in this istance, so it seems clear that the step they should make is gut Klepto gold income next
: That's what I'm saying. The only champions that uses Kleptomancy without spellthief's are Illaoi and Ezreal. Illaoi has multiple good runes for her, so hopefully it wouldn't hurt her too much and Ezreal is one of the very best champions in the game right now and could definitely go for a nerf in some way or another, nerfing his primary rune choice is just one way they could hit him. Kleptomancy, especially the new one, has completely broken top lane as people realise they can just play scaling, team fight mages up there, with Kleptomancy and just punish any melee match up.
> [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PucEfK71,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T14:48:27.210+0000) > > That's what I'm saying. The only champions that uses Kleptomancy without spellthief's are Illaoi and Ezreal. Illaoi has multiple good runes for her, so hopefully it wouldn't hurt her too much and Ezreal is one of the very best champions in the game right now and could definitely go for a nerf in some way or another, nerfing his primary rune choice is just one way they could hit him. > > **Kleptomancy, especially the new one, has completely broken top lane as people realise they can just play scaling, team fight mages up there, with Kleptomancy and just punish any melee match up.** But reverting Klepto would just bring back the old problems that existed with that rune before the changes, when it was abused from anyone who could abuse it, and not "only" in some cheesy unexpected strategy like the "0 cs" one There is an overall power problem with Klepto, it is just too good when it can be exploited and once this "0 cs" thing is shut down, another issue will occur down the line as long as there is the potential for Klepto to be broken. The priority should be to tone down the overall power and open it to wider usage, not revert from new kind of abuses to old kind of abuses
: Especially considering how strong Ezreal is right now, he could do with being pegged down a little either way.
> [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PucEfK71,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T13:14:20.128+0000) > > Especially considering how strong Ezreal is right now, he could do with being pegged down a little either way. If Ez was the only problem, you could just gut him to the hell in the early game with CD to not allow him to abuse it Klepto is staying because Riot still see as a rune that has a role in the overall rune balance, as in theory you trade combat stats for gold useful to build your items faster as a tradeoff - similar to Cull concept, but with trading in mind instead of farming - The real problem is that, unlike Cull which is still totally underpowered, Klepto is overall overpowered, when it can cyclically get to unintended uses like in these cases. At a certain point you got to do the only thing that has not being done yet, hit the gold generation from that rune (without buffing Ezrael as compensation), and see where it does land in the overall scheme of things, and then decide if rework it/remove it, or keep it and change again numbvers
: > [{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PucEfK71,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-12T13:10:46.981+0000) > > They honestly should've just hit klepto > > Now you need yo have someone with you to be able to get gold from spellthief and you can't get gold if you adc recalls etc Why are you not recalling when your adc recalls? If you play support correctly this is basically a non issue, theres no reason for you to stay 1v2 in the lane, you can always go mid, roam to get some wards or simply recall and go back to lane with your adcs.
> [{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PucEfK71,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-02-12T13:15:58.705+0000) > > **Why are you not recalling when your adc recalls?** > > If you play support correctly this is basically a non issue, theres no reason for you to stay 1v2 in the lane, you can always go mid, roam to get some wards or simply recall and go back to lane with your adcs. That is just a dumb statement If your adc is forced to back earlier than what he should, you may want to stay a bit longer to try to hold lane and prevent enemy bot lane from getting easy plating gold, and delay your back about 20 seconds to allow him to reach to tower to reduce the losses Or if you are high hp and mana, and without enough money to get the item you need, you could just stay around to collect some money and exp and being able to actually buy the items when you then back, without being forced to back twice
: As a support main, I am not sure how I feel about this. They definitely need to do something to fix the "no CSing" top lane thing going on ASAP, but hopefully this doesn't effect me I mean, it only effects spell thief so once it's upgraded it works like normal so it should be fine, right?
> [{quoted}](name=MorgManBasher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PucEfK71,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-12T12:10:09.759+0000) > > As a support main, I am not sure how I feel about this. > They definitely need to do something to fix the "no CSing" top lane thing going on ASAP, but hopefully this doesn't effect me > > I mean, it only effects spell thief so once it's upgraded it works like normal so it should be fine, right? It apparently effects all the item line, that's the problem
RRea1ity (NA)
: Support Item Changes.
Honestly, these changes are dumb. If the "0 cs" top lane strategy work because of the spellthief + Klepto synergy, just hit Klepto which is generally NOT used by supports (except Sona which yet has other good runes available for her) Klepto basically allow you to get 10 gold every 10 seconds through two autoattacks (so 5 gold for AA). Just reduce the amount of gold you get from Klepto to something like 3 gold for AA, so you get 6 gold every 10 seconds. If you think that's too much of a nerf, add also a +1 gold if the Klepto AA kill a minion, so you lose gold if you use those on minions but you are still encourage to not only harass with Klepto Problem solved, Klepto still give you a sizable amount of money, but you can't abose the passive gold gen to just freely harass without worrying about CSing
: I don't know if design decisions are 100% to blame. The MOBA market is somewhat saturated already, between DOTA, HOTS (rip), SMITE, LOL, and probably one more that I'm forgetting, there was a lot of competition. That's not even counting all of the team based shooters that are somewhat like MOBAs, such as Overwatch, TF2, or Paladins.
> [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=GZYEamvk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-14T01:18:02.506+0000) > > **I don't know if design decisions are 100% to blame**. The MOBA market is somewhat saturated already, between DOTA, HOTS (rip), SMITE, LOL, and probably one more that I'm forgetting, there was a lot of competition. That's not even counting all of the team based shooters that are somewhat like MOBAs, such as Overwatch, TF2, or Paladins. They are. HotS suffered from the "Sonic syndrome", it wasn't actually a game that was born to have its own identity like the successful one in the genre, Blizzard just tired to eat Riot lunch money with both Overwatch and HotS by making them a more palatable version for casual audience of what made LOL a success ( as Sonic tried to be edgier than Mario back then ), having the whole premise of those games being "very semplified hero based gameplay that is more respectful of players time and more generous with its gifts than LoL". Having the Blizzard name and advertising push (and having its characters in HotS case) was a nice bonus for those games, but the aforementioned is the core of what they were going for. The problem is that, once Riot got forced to adjusted to competition by speeding up the pace of the game AND getting more generous with the introduced lootbox system, those games lacked most of what they had going on for fighting Riot e getting LoL spot at the top (at least, at the time) of what was the perceived as the audience market for all these games Overwatch is in the end is a first person shooter so people that actually want to enjoy to play MOBA-style games are not going to perceive Overwatch as a long term gameplay repalcement for LoL, and HotS tried to capture "casual" audience by dumbing down the gameplay even further for no real reason, so it lacked depth to retain players and making them spend money. They both got no real identity from a gameplay point of view , and in the end HotS failed totally for this reason (and also because it was released too late, when the MOBA frenzy was beyond its peak), and Overwatch, while being initially a success, wasn't capable of retain its success and saw a relevant part of its own launch money being eaten by the Battle Royal/Fortnite phenomenon that captured a lot of the casual multiplayer audience they intitially were going for P.S. Dawngate and Paragorn neve got a chance becauase EA and Epic never really supported them as hard as Riot, Valve and Blizzard did for their MoBAs, but game like SMITE and the mobile phone moba like AoV are pretty healthy right now
: Top Riot Executive Suspended Without Pay Following Investigation Over Workplace Misconduct
The guy did not really commit "proper" sexual assault, he was just a huge unprofessional dick that was guilty of repeated harassing of all his workplace colleagues with his "jokes" and childish behaviour . For example it was reported in the previous Kotaku article that the guy (at the time he had no name) actually farted only in the face of male employees, not female ones, so it wasn't much about "direct" sexism, it was about him being an asshole and having a very twisted concept of what can be considered "funny" and no idea of what is considered acceptable in a professional environnment The guy deserved a way harsher punishment, but that was not much about sexism like the orignal stories claimed to be, it is about a very bad aberration of "bro culture" that is present at a workplace like Riot that this guy in particular epitomizes, a bad workplace environment that ended up being way less friendly for females (rather than for young males for which such behaviour are generally less despised) and indirectly more damaging for females employees when it spreaded down the hierarchies at Riot, since various people that were uncomfortable with this "bro culture" were getting penalized in their careers or felt so stressed out and harassed that they had to leave the company
: So the king of item abuse gets a new item to abuse
Ez like a lot the new Death's Dance, but is far from the problem with it and is far from being the champion that benefits the most from it He is still based around hitting skillshots over and over, so if he is actually healing from its damage, he is also probably yet killing/beating you, so the result would be largely the same reagrdless of the healing. Only the ult is problematic as a free heal tool, but at least is on an ult cooldown, so it's not that bad. In comparison, someone like Tristana benefit way more than Ez through passive E + ult damage adding further healing to her safety tools (and tbh, that's not a bad thing since Tristana has sucked for almost a season now)
: What is the scenario for a proper Cull's usage in the post 8.23 League?
Update (or better, lack thereof): 8.24 hit and Poacher's Dirk was removed because no one deemed worthy its trade-offs, but no news about Full future
Mogarl (NA)
: I disagree to an extreme with Jayce Sticking out the most. Jayce has Pantaloons more obvious on his splash, which he shares with other Pilties a furred collar, which he shares with Ez. I suspect leather coats with furred collar are a youger male fashion trend in Piltover. 6 belt buckles on his coat plus a few clasps His boots are kind of similar to the boots of the Sherifs in the [Jinx & Ziggs comic](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/comic/jinx-ziggs/paint-the-town/8/) On the other hand the only image of a skirt or short dress in anything Piltover related is maybe the bit of cloth hanging off Vi's outfit, but that could also be a shred of a long dress. Otherwise Caitlyn is the only known owner of a skirt in Piltover. So even if you tried to argue that it could be a trend with younger woman in Piltover there is 0 evidence to support that. Even in [Progress Day](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/piltover-progress-day/) with several younger female characters the word skirt is not used once, and the only dress is floor length. Skirts are also absent in [The Weakest Heart](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/camille-weakest-heart/) although there is a child in a gray dress. In addition the wind was mentioned because wind (and nighttime) is frequently cold. There are of course a ton of practical problems with skirts. Notably how dumb it is to run around in one in back alleys where it and/or your exposed legs can get caught on things. You like her mini dress. Legs and tits are nice, I like them too, but lets not pretend that Caitlyn's getup is practical or more lore friendly than others.
> [{quoted}](name=Mogarl,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=rLxavEXW,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-02T05:12:37.965+0000) > > I disagree to an extreme with Jayce Sticking out the most. > Jayce has > Pantaloons more obvious on his splash, which he shares with other Pilties > a furred collar, which he shares with Ez. I suspect leather coats with furred collar are a youger male fashion trend in Piltover. > 6 belt buckles on his coat plus a few clasps > His boots are kind of similar to the boots of the Sherifs in the [Jinx & Ziggs comic](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/comic/jinx-ziggs/paint-the-town/8/) > Jayce is the guy that pushed himself as the opposition to Viktor plans to modify the human species in his hunger to solve the world's problem by modifying humanity through his Glorious Evloution and thus earned the nickanme of the Defender of Tomorrow that would be out there to stop Viktor plans How the fuck does an inventor with Jayce intelligence in all these years has NOT developed further hextech gadgets on his armor to get ready for the next Viktor attack? That make no sense as far as lore does. Jayce is visually a dude with an armor with no **notable** hextech improvement, the only thing that visually stand out at first glance that he is someone coming from Piltover is the hammer Yes, he has Piltover details in his look **as I said myself** in the abovementioned post, but from a lore point of view, it make absolutely no sense that he hasn't further worked on his armor to add hextech gadget/power to it beyond his hammer, since he knows that Viktor is still working to improve on his suit to complete someday his plans. His hexteck craftsmanship should be way more evident in his look >On the other hand the only image of a skirt or short dress in anything Piltover related is maybe the bit of cloth hanging off Vi's outfit, but that could also be a shred of a long dress. Otherwise Caitlyn is the only known owner of a skirt in Piltover. So even if you tried to argue that it could be a trend with younger woman in Piltover there is 0 evidence to support that. Even in Progress Day with several younger female characters the word skirt is not used once, and the only dress is floor length. Skirts are also absent in The Weakest Heart although there is a child in a gray dress. It is totally funny how you try to describe a female Piltover style, when the only visual characterization we have from it are the champions theirselves and Piltover female style basically isn't described in any released media except for some middle-aged background characters in comics. We have 3 living "Piltover" female characters (so Orianna does not count now), VI that was originally a Zaun criminal turned good and thus dressed as a Zaunite person, Camille that is an aristocratic old woman that works in the shadows between Piltover and Zaun and finally we have Caitlyn. The only thing we have to kinda imagine how a young woman would dress in Piltover are some common details among every Piltover champs and a vague fictional timeline - steampunk late'800 british style? -, and Caitlyn does hit the nail on both in the actual design The truth is that you have no way to argue that Caitlyn style does not fit with Piltover one or the character lore, simply because you have no metric comparisons to claim it so, and instead every clue available suggest that her current design fit the few guidelines that can actually define a female Piltover style, since it get the vibe and feel of the setting right So stop with the bullshit and the "sexualization" argument trying to accuse people of just liking legs and tits, Caitlyn model is very old and there is room for update and improvement through thje addition of some small details (and yes, some of these details could cover her more, like the addition of some shoulder straps to her dress), but the overall design fit perfectly with the lore and universe of Piltover region, way more than someone like Jayce for example Orianna is a worse offender than Caitlyn if we talk about female Piltover characters, she is designed around the concept of a carillon classic dancer doll, but in her classic splash art the contrast between the part of the body covered by the classic dance otufits and the rest of her "naked" body is not shown enough
Mogarl (NA)
: Barely any Zaun champs wear actual clothes though. However they're justified in the cases where they don't. Robot parts {{champion:53}} naked {{champion:112}} Pants and cape {{champion:6}} Do you see any clothes? outside society {{champion:36}} heavily torn clothes {{champion:40}} She was originally empowered by sailors, and now resides in a city where champions don't wear clothes {{champion:222}} Belts {{champion:27}} 1/3rd of his clothing is bandages {{champion:19}} Pants {{champion:115}} Fully clothed and armored Social {{champion:245}} Fully clothed in a Zaunite fashion Piltover champs on the other hand are all dressed (except Ori who is exempt). so someone like Jinx would stand out like a flare, and Caitlyn's **in game** appearance is a little too revealing. Although I would argue that her splash is fine, and if you gave her an open coat her outfit wouldn't be as incredibly impractical. Piltover being pretty windy in some spots and her having spent a lot of time in the forests outside the city is what makes her splash outfit questionable to me.
> [{quoted}](name=Mogarl,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=rLxavEXW,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-12-01T18:17:21.097+0000) > {{champion:115}} Fully clothed and armored > > Social > {{champion:245}} Fully clothed in a Zaunite fashion > > Piltover champs on the other hand are all dressed (except Ori who is exempt). so someone like Jinx would stand out like a flare, and Caitlyn's **in game** appearance is a little too revealing. Although I would argue that her splash is fine, and if you gave her an open coat her outfit wouldn't be as incredibly impractical. Piltover being pretty windy in some spots and her having spent a lot of time in the forests outside the city is what makes her splash outfit questionable to me. Ziggs being clothed and armored has nothing to do with Zaun, as he actually come from Piltover where he was a Hemier assistent that turned "mad" with his love for hexplosives (as well as Vi being fully armored making sense since she originally comes from Zaun) If you except animals (Warwick, Twitch), monstrosities (Zac, Mundo, Singed, Urgot), and ethereal/non living beings (Janna, Blitzcrank), the human like/yordle characters from Zaun or connected to it all wear clothes/armor (Vi, Viktor, Ekko, Camille) except for Jinx which just like that kind of "rebel" fashion. The style of all Piltover character is really similar, as you can check the details on jayce (which is the one who fit less) and Heimer jacket which actually resemble the motives on Caitlyn and Camille dress (the exceptions are Vi that come from Zaun as yet said and Ez tht uses Shuriman clothes for obvious lore reasons). Caitlyn past in the forests does not matter as she has returned from it loong time before the current lore timeline (she is in her late 20s- mid 30s at least), and she got her clothing and social behavior from her wealthy family of artisans. She is said to give help for mundane things, so she is not likely to wear something wild and scary for the Piltover population, and I don't think she gives a fuck about some wind rasing a bit her dress while she is chasing a criminal. I don't see major flaws with her outfit, so I don't think there is really the need to change a such iconic look among LoL champions...an update of the model and some minor detail? Sure, it would be great. Drastically changing her look? Nah
: I don't understand why people can't make an argument without getting into SJW bullshit. Caitlyn needs a VU. It has nothing to do with her having a short skirt and visible cleavage. It has everything to do with the fact that the Piltover that Caitlyn was created for is vastly different to what Piltover is now. It's far more serious. Caitlyn's role is far more serious. The fashion, architecture, culture and technology is far more developed. FOR THAT ALONE she needs a VU - to bring her forward into the current iteration of Piltover. NOT ONCE DID MY ARGUMENT FOR CAITLYN NEEDING A VU DEVOLVE INTO 'BUT I CAN SEE HER TA-TAS'. Apart from anything, if you're doing LoL right you look for Gameplay > Theme > Lore > Appearance. Fiddlesticks looks like complete ass but he's still one of my favorite champions in the game because Busted Support ATM > DEMON SCARECROW > COOL STORY > Playdough Base Model
> [{quoted}](name=DarkSoul1994,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=rLxavEXW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-01T08:09:49.699+0000) > > I don't understand why people can't make an argument without getting into SJW bullshit. Caitlyn needs a VU. It has nothing to do with her having a short skirt and visible cleavage. It has everything to do with the fact that the Piltover that Caitlyn was created for is vastly different to what Piltover is now. It's far more serious. Caitlyn's role is far more serious. The fashion, architecture, culture and technology is far more developed. FOR THAT ALONE she needs a VU - to bring her forward into the current iteration of Piltover. > And I totally disagree with that. Caitlyn aesthetic is pretty iconic and hit a weird but cool spot, with a british like-flair to a late'800 law enforcer but with her cool Piltover steampunk gadget. After all, Camille, which is the most recent Piltover character, doesn't clash much with that kind of timeline. A lot of people that ask for a Caitlyn VU, doesn't just her current model being updated to modern standards, adding small details to improve it here and there, a lot of people talk about weird fashion reason and/or talk about sexuality like the OP of that other thread that complained about how she shouldn't wear those dress because she should be able "to do cop things like throwing people to the ground"...except she not being a modern cop and chasing people down by setting down traps and catching people with nets in addition with her sniper skills if we are talking about Piltover aesthethics, Jayce likely fit way less than Cait, since the armored dude thing is more of a Demacia or Noxus thing, and Jayce is basically a version of those characters but "has an hextech hammer so he belongs to Piltover". No one says that Jinx doesn't fit with Zaun, and she is way less dark than the other Zaun character and visually oppose pretty well with Caitlyn
: > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=0017000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-01T11:09:09.556+0000) > > Nope. > Doran Ring since 8.9 has an additional 5 physical damage to minions on basic attacks and more consistent mana regen (and they specifically changed it to be mana regen less dedepndent on csing) and Dark Seal offer a way stronger offensive option for aggressive laners. > You'd need to revert Doran Ring change to fit Cull there, and Cull is not meant for AP champion even in your version, tbh > > Maybe few champions forced to be super passive because they lose almost every trade on mid lane early on like Vladimir or Viktor could consider it just for sustain + gold (and with that cost an additional health potion to say in lane more), but they would probably be better off starting with corruption pot honestly But that's my point. It has to be a slightly inferior option otherwise due to the gold gain it would become the go-to choice. It does combine all 3 dorans items though (AD from blade, hp sustain akin shield and mana regen like ring... but obviously toned down from each). Keep in mind that putting it at 350g allows you to get a refillable pot at start too, you need to take that into consideration so it is comparable to {{item:1082}}
> [{quoted}](name=SexualNuts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=00170000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-01T14:38:11.065+0000) > > But that's my point. It has to be a slightly inferior option otherwise due to the gold gain it would become the go-to choice. It does combine all 3 dorans items though (AD from blade, hp sustain akin shield and mana regen like ring... but obviously toned down from each). Keep in mind that putting it at 350g allows you to get a refillable pot at start too, you need to take that into consideration so it is comparable to {{item:1082}} I understand, but I am saying a different thing, I am arguing that your proposed Cull would simply be a COMPLETELY inferior option for AP mages It would be for top laners, especially tank and AD casters, and it is fine, I guess?
: > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Y9UyER3H,comment-id=0050,timestamp=2018-12-01T12:11:14.830+0000) > > Obviously I agree that unnecessary sexualization should be removed, because it doesn't thematically fit some characters, but I don't really get the complaints on some champions mentioned, it just look like you want to cover as much as skin as possible even when the current design are not really harmful in female representation > > Like, Caitlyn is not really depicted as a cop in modern sense (The Officer skin line is what Cait and Vi would be if they were truly traditional cops in modern universe - and yes, those skins are clearly oversexualized on purpose - ), she has more of a weird late'800 british-like renegade law enforcer vibe that I think the current design actually nail. Some small details could be modified here and there, like adding shoulder straps to hep support her dress, but overall she is fine (p.S. and Headhunter Caitlyn is superior to Pulsefire, imho) > I don't like the redesign concept posted here with the mantle and the leather trousers, as it honestly make it waaay to visually similar to someone like Vayne that has a different character/fantasy as the night(vampire) hunter > > Taliking about Ashe, her trope is not the one of a DnD ranger, so she shouldn't dress like one, that's pretty simple. The concept art is fantstic though, so that traditional ashe could really be used for something like a traveler/wanderer/secret mission skin line, where she try to hide more her identity by covering herself in a fur coat to go unnoticed while stopping in some tavern. > > Nidalee is totally fine as she is, she shouldn't dress like Neeko because she has a way more wild and aggressive personality and clothes are a visual way to just refelct that character in game > For her and Janna, it looks like you are concerned more about clear jokes (dance/lines) than their current canon representations as characters...and, for istance, I think that while Janna current art is not offensive, something in between current model and the conceptproposed by you would be even better than the current one (like if yoou take out the sleeves and shorten the cloth "tails" that starts from her hip she would be perfect because she would just be, well...cooler) > > I could go on (like, how the hell can Syndra being considered oversexualized and not just a traditional evil mage trope?), but I honestly feels like the very bad offenders are way less than most people complain about, not counting the characters that have certain desgin on purpose like Evelyn and Kata and they are very well known: > - Miss Fortune, the biggest offender > - Ahri, not much because of her visual design, but just because it fits too much with the stereotypes on asian loli with the charm thing going > - Leblanc, even though the problem is not how she is portrayed as character but actual minor visual details > - Zyra, which is imho too much of a copycat of Batman's Poison Ivy and that is unnecessary for the character > - Elise, that honestly overlap with Eve from a visual point of view and you didn't strangely mention > > Maybe Orianna or Akali could be added even though they do not seem to offend anyone Ori is a definite no, though I don't understand the Ahri line, Ahri isn't even a loli so how would anyone ever eden correlate her with whatever Asian loli stereotype you're talking about. Even with the charm I never had the idea of a loli coming to my head, can you explain what you meant a bit more? And I mean that out of curiosity.
> [{quoted}](name=ShadeDi,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Y9UyER3H,comment-id=00500000,timestamp=2018-12-01T13:09:57.721+0000) > > Ori is a definite no, though I don't understand the Ahri line, Ahri isn't even a loli so how would anyone ever eden correlate her with whatever Asian loli stereotype you're talking about. Even with the charm I never had the idea of a loli coming to my head, can you explain what you meant a bit more? And I mean that out of curiosity. She has clear asian traits, and if you pair this with her character and the whole thing with using charm to attract and destroy her enemies, you can clearly see while she ended up being one of the most popular with people that prefer girls with asian traits and one that developped the most sexualized fanart to satisfy that audienc. It is likely not a problem of what Riot currently did as they didn't execute in an offensive way that trope of exotic charming character (and I said it in the post), but she ended up as more sexualized than what it should because ended up being an easy target for the people looking for those things I didn't express clearly and likely misused the term loli, associating it with the aspect of K-pop stars that look generally younger than their age for the lack of a better term in the moment i wrote the post, so I apologize for that
: Some thoughts on more dated female champions, from a girl
Obviously I agree that unnecessary sexualization should be removed, because it doesn't thematically fit some characters, but I don't really get the complaints on some champions mentioned, it just look like you want to cover as much as skin as possible even when the current design are not really harmful in female representation Like, Caitlyn is not really depicted as a cop in modern sense (The Officer skin line is what Cait and Vi would be if they were truly traditional cops in modern universe - and yes, those skins are clearly oversexualized on purpose - ), she has more of a weird late'800 british-like renegade law enforcer vibe that I think the current design actually nail. Some small details could be modified here and there, like adding shoulder straps to hep support her dress, but overall she is fine (p.S. and Headhunter Caitlyn is superior to Pulsefire, imho) I don't like the redesign concept posted here with the mantle and the leather trousers, as it honestly make it waaay to visually similar to someone like Vayne that has a different character/fantasy as the night(vampire) hunter Taliking about Ashe, her trope is not the one of a DnD ranger, so she shouldn't dress like one, that's pretty simple. The concept art is fantstic though, so that traditional ashe could really be used for something like a traveler/wanderer/secret mission skin line, where she try to hide more her identity by covering herself in a fur coat to go unnoticed while stopping in some tavern. Nidalee is totally fine as she is, she shouldn't dress like Neeko because she has a way more wild and aggressive personality and clothes are a visual way to just refelct that character in game For her and Janna, it looks like you are concerned more about clear jokes (dance/lines) than their current canon representations as characters...and, for istance, I think that while Janna current art is not offensive, something in between current model and the conceptproposed by you would be even better than the current one (like if yoou take out the sleeves and shorten the cloth "tails" that starts from her hip she would be perfect because she would just be, well...cooler) I could go on (like, how the hell can Syndra being considered oversexualized and not just a traditional evil mage trope?), but I honestly feels like the very bad offenders are way less than most people complain about, not counting the characters that have certain desgin on purpose like Evelyn and Kata and they are very well known: - Miss Fortune, the biggest offender - Ahri, not much because of her visual design, but just because it fits too much with the stereotypes on asian loli with the charm thing going - Leblanc, even though the problem is not how she is portrayed as character but actual minor visual details - Zyra, which is imho too much of a copycat of Batman's Poison Ivy and that is unnecessary for the character - Elise, that honestly overlap with Eve from a visual point of view and you didn't strangely mention Maybe Orianna or Akali could be added even though they do not seem to offend anyone
: It would be a possible item for AP mid laners too, +5 AD early is good for both last hitting and auto pokes. It is still relatively weak compared to the dorans items and less sustain than corruption pot, so it would sit behind the two but of course with the gold benefit.
> [{quoted}](name=SexualNuts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=001700000000,timestamp=2018-12-01T08:40:20.653+0000) > > **It would be a possible item for AP mid laners too**, +5 AD early is good for both last hitting and auto pokes. > > It is still relatively weak compared to the dorans items and less sustain than corruption pot, so it would sit behind the two but of course with the gold benefit. Nope. Doran Ring since 8.9 has an additional 5 physical damage to minions on basic attacks and more consistent mana regen (and they specifically changed it to be mana regen less dedepndent on csing) and Dark Seal offer a way stronger offensive option for aggressive laners. You'd need to revert Doran Ring change to fit Cull there, and Cull is not meant for AP champion even in your version, tbh Maybe few champions forced to be super passive because they lose almost every trade on mid lane early on like Vladimir or Viktor could consider it just for sustain + gold (and with that cost an additional health potion to say in lane more), but they would probably be better off starting with corruption pot honestly
: Agree this item feels like an absolute noob trap. I've tried taking it in both passive lanes and lanes where I'd stomp and in both cases it just feels like a sub-par choice. I'd like to see this: {{item:1083}} Cost 350 gold +5 attack damage UNIQUE Passive: Killing enemy units grant you +5 health, +3 mana and +2 bonus gold. Maximum bonus gold: 300. This item sells for 0 gold until the maximum bonus gold is reached. It then sells for 150 gold. --- Better sustain to compete with Doran's items and corrupting potion, as well as a less gimmicky gold bonus. It still comes at the cost of better stats other items give so there is a trade-off.
> [{quoted}](name=SexualNuts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-11-30T18:57:53.902+0000) > > Agree this item feels like an absolute noob trap. I've tried taking it in both passive lanes and lanes where I'd stomp and in both cases it just feels like a sub-par choice. > > I'd like to see this: > > {{item:1083}} Cost 350 gold > +5 attack damage > > UNIQUE Passive: Killing enemy units grant you +5 health, +3 mana and +2 bonus gold. > Maximum bonus gold: 300. > This item sells for 0 gold until the maximum bonus gold is reached. It then sells for 150 gold. > > --- > > Better sustain to compete with Doran's items and corrupting potion, as well as a less gimmicky gold bonus. It still comes at the cost of better stats other items give so there is a trade-off. Interesting, but it would definitively make it an item for top laners and AD casters, since the mana stat would benefit them much more than the traditional farming ADCs for which Cull is in theory designed
Yenn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-11-29T23:42:43.406+0000) > > It is not. > Not only Doran Blade give 80 additional health that is about 10-15% of an ADC starting health at lvl 1, also between the AD from runes and the Doran's Blade AD itself, basically every marksmen get on par or better lifesteal by level 5 or so. On top of not synergizing at all with items bought before the completion of Cull stacking \> It's still better than a Doran's Blade **in passive lanes**, since you won't use or need the extra stats (especially HP). It doesn't really need any changes. Please learn to read. If you're in a passive lane, there's no kill potential and nobody is attacking you, you're just AFK farming until mid game. Extra health and life steal do absolutely nothing when nobody is attacking you and you're not attacking anybody else. It's commonly built on ranged top laners and scaling ADCs in safe lanes.
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T02:46:15.718+0000) > > \> It's still better than a Doran's Blade **in passive lanes**, since you won't use or need the extra stats (especially HP). It doesn't really need any changes. > > Please learn to read. If you're in a passive lane, there's no kill potential and nobody is attacking you, you're just AFK farming until mid game. Extra health and life steal do absolutely nothing when nobody is attacking you and you're not attacking anybody else. > > It's commonly built on ranged top laners and scaling ADCs in safe lanes. Passive lanes can still trade or receive ganks to force people out of the lane/back, and by the way at level 6 (and Cull has yet been outscaled way before it, at level 3-4 depending on how much you value the hp on DBlade) even passive lanes have kill potential. Cull is not a better option, that's why it is not currently used much
Yenn (NA)
: It's still better than a Doran's Blade in passive lanes, since you won't use or need the extra stats (especially HP). It doesn't really need any changes.
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-11-29T22:29:42.746+0000) > > It's still better than a Doran's Blade in passive lanes, since you won't use or need the extra stats (especially HP). It doesn't really need any changes. It is not. Not only Doran Blade give 80 additional health that is about 10-15% of an ADC starting health at lvl 1, also between the AD from runes and the Doran's Blade AD itself, basically every marksmen get on par or better lifesteal by level 5 or so. On top of not synergizing at all with items bought before the completion of Cull stacking
: Cull should just be reworked into an AD support item for Pyke and troll picks. Make it an aggressive AD support item that stacks off doing X aggressive action. Maybe a Relic type item that has a CD and has a mini mini duskblade style proc after executing a minion(which grants gold to the adc.) That proc gets locked out if you CS. Sort of a combo of relic and spellthief with an AD focus. Would also be a nice item for Champs like thresh. Or those weird sup picks like MF/Ashe. {{item:3134}} for supports basically.
> [{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-11-29T19:27:17.689+0000) > > Cull should just be reworked into an AD support item for Pyke and troll picks. > > Make it an aggressive AD support item that stacks off doing X aggressive action. Maybe a Relic type item that has a CD and has a mini mini duskblade style proc after executing a minion(which grants gold to the adc.) That proc gets locked out if you CS. Sort of a combo of relic and spellthief with an AD focus. > Hmm, it would be difficult to balance imho, if the numbers are too strong, early duelist in top lane take it to start aggressively at lvl1, if it is too weak no one picks it bot except Pyke and suboptimal builds for other champions Also, it doesn't answer the question about if Cull-like item still have a purpose for farming ADCs
Speeedy (NA)
: The only time I've bought it is if i have really bad back timing for the first back like if i have less than 875 gold like season 7. Its a 10-12 min item, which sucks but for 450 gold you get 350(passive)+180(selling it)=530 which sounds good but it really only nets you 80 gold (530-450=80). It needs to net you like 300 gold to justify it at a bare minimum to take up an inventory slot for the time it requires now. Rod of ages sits for 10 minutes and gets really good once its fully stacked. I think you get 40AP, 200hp and 100 mana for the 10 minutes it takes which is a ton of stats over 80 gold from cull. I think the easiest thing to do is adjust the payout on it by making it a minimum of 570. so it really is 570+180-450=300 output which gets you a dagger or maybe up it a little more to give you a long sword. You need to make sacrificing the stats from a real item worth the delay in your build since you are never going to even possibly buy it past the 15 minute mark of the game.
> [{quoted}](name=RacerX4114,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-11-29T22:10:02.374+0000) > > The only time I've bought it is if i have really bad back timing for the first back like if i have less than 875 gold like season 7. Its a 10-12 min item, which sucks but for 450 gold you get 350(passive)+180(selling it)=530 which sounds good but it really only nets you 80 gold (530-450=80). It needs to net you like 300 gold to justify it at a bare minimum to take up an inventory slot for the time it requires now. You get 180 gold actually, even though it is still bad economic value...you forgot the +1 gold for every minion kill while stacking, so it's 100+350+180 so is 630-450= 180 Not that 180 gold makes it good, if you are in trouble because of lack of stats you lose way more than the around 1 minion wave Cull gives you in money - and that's the major problem currently, it is not worth to get Cull over other options -
: > does Cull still serve a purpose in the current landscape Cull has never served a purpose, even the patch it released it was the inferior option.
> [{quoted}](name=disregardable,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdNAMXj6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-29T18:37:22.456+0000) > > **Cull has never served a purpose**, even the patch it released it was the inferior option. Well, that's because, like you said, it sucked when released and still sucks right now, not necessarily because it didn't have a purpose. Like, for example {{item:3056}} has a clear purpose, it is just that it is so situational that you can almost never use its active, and is not nearly good enough on its base stats that get completely overshadowed by {{item:3512}}
Rioter Comments
EsoEs (NA)
: WTF is TSM Doing??
Replacing Hauntzer is not really a problem if they are going to get 3 strong NA players as they seem they are doing by getting Dardoch on jungle and they will have potentially the strongest trio of NA native players in Bjergsen/Dardoch/Smoothie. Also Hauntzer seems to have peaked, at a level that is pretty good for NA, but still below the best international top laners, so if TSM is serious about looking at international success, he is not an irrepleaceable loss The real problem is that with this new iteration of TSM, their management is not facing their issues, since thery are building once again their roster around Bjergsen, a tactic which has becoming more and more inefficient as the competition in mid lane AND the number of decent to good NA players in general have increased. Broken Blade has great mechanics and still potential to improve, but I'm not really sold on him, and honestly i don't think TSM can rely on him from the start to dominate, as he will have his ups and downs while he adapt to an higher level of competition, and Zven has been subordinate to Bjerg last season, so it's likely that dardoch and the entire TSM tactic will tend to gravitate again around Bjergsen being able to snowball upon the advantages he create in early game upon the entire map, which he has not been able to do well in the latest seasons
: > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=3v8fnATB,comment-id=001b0000,timestamp=2018-10-31T09:17:58.533+0000) > > Wut? Literally no one considered Zeyzal the weak link in these Worlds. > He was the best performer in FNC series by virtue of not being the one making clear mistakes there. > > I don't think C9 can achieve the same kind of success with the same roster, but that's likely the only thing they can try unless they can somehow grab a World Champion level aggressive jungler Sneaky kinda was the weak link (or bot lane as a whole), since they lost almost every lane. But how does a support change make the best bot in NA low key one of the weakest? I'm not saying Zeyzal is bad, I'm saying he has room to grow, which is obvious because rookie. Wait till their synergy has time to grow and we'll see true beauty.
> [{quoted}](name=KDA AkaIí,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=3v8fnATB,comment-id=001b00000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T06:59:02.380+0000) > > Sneaky kinda was the weak link (or bot lane as a whole), since they lost almost every lane.** But how does a support change make the best bot in NA low key one of the weakest?** I'm not saying Zeyzal is bad, I'm saying he has room to grow, which is obvious because rookie. Wait till their synergy has time to grow and we'll see true beauty. Bot lane was the weak link because they were not facing other NA bot lanes dude XD C9 bot lane is still good compared to NA, it is just bad compared to the rest of the world. Sneaky has always been somewhat steady and solid, with only the occasional hiccup here and there, for his level of play, but he has never been very good compared to international botlanes when he faced them, he was just so consistent that if stronger enemies underperfrom he could step up and beat them by keeping up his generally decent level of play Doublelift, Stixxay, even Wildturtle or Cody Sun had higher highs but way lower lows andmuch more inconsistent play than Sneaky, that's why they got less success at international level It has NOTHING to do with Zeyzal performance, if anything Zeyzal performed as well or better than any support of a NA team not named Aphromoo at 2016 MSI and Lustboy at 2014 Worlds has ever done. I don't honestly think C9 can go much higher than that, unless Zeyzal miracoulously become a World level support ala Mata/Gorilla/Swordart/Yellowstar when he was at his prime/ecc... because it wasn't bot lane synergy or Zeyzal inexperience/performance the problem, it is just neither one of them is great at international level, they are merely good, especially Sneaky who has yet peaked in earlier seasons and he was declining this entire season
: Honestly, I dont think they should make any changes. Go again with the same roster and watch how the rookies learn from their worlds experience. Remember Smoothie's rookie year? At first he was ehh, but just a better sub for BunnyFufu, but eventually Sneaky Smoothie became the best bot lane in NA. C9 bot lane was the weak link this year, but give Zeyzal another chance. He has promise. Watch him grow to be a support genius.
> [{quoted}](name=KDA AkaIí,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=3v8fnATB,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2018-10-29T23:56:01.927+0000) > > Honestly, I dont think they should make any changes. Go again with the same roster and watch how the rookies learn from their worlds experience. > > Remember Smoothie's rookie year? At first he was ehh, but just a better sub for BunnyFufu, but eventually Sneaky Smoothie became the best bot lane in NA. C9 bot lane was the weak link this year, but give Zeyzal another chance. He has promise. Watch him grow to be a support genius. Wut? Literally no one considered Zeyzal the weak link in these Worlds. He was the best performer in FNC series by virtue of not being the one making clear mistakes there. I don't think C9 can achieve the same kind of success with the same roster, but that's likely the only thing they can try unless they can somehow grab a World Champion level aggressive jungler
: > [{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=3v8fnATB,comment-id=001800010000,timestamp=2018-10-29T23:50:05.055+0000) > > Obvious misprint, lmao Ik just thought you should edit it.
> [{quoted}](name=SpiritAnomaly,realm=EUNE,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=3v8fnATB,comment-id=0018000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-30T20:46:51.279+0000) > > Ik just thought you should edit it. I did :)
: I'm happy a western world is gonna win Worlds but..
IF Fnatic win, it will be because they would have win 5 games out of 6-8 against the team that beat KT which was the favorite to win Wolrds alongside RNG. iG is a great team indeed, and it will be very very difficult to beat them. Korea sending two bad teams rather than Griffin and Kingzone (or SKT if Blank stopped inting) obviously helped a lot the other regions, but still EU eliminated one of the 2 World's favorites, won a group to send the 3rd best team in pre tournament ranking to face the best one (iG vs KT) and C9 beat a KR team, even though a pretty bad one, in a Best of 5 and eliminated alongside VIT the other Korean team
: IDK what you mean by the meta has shifted. This is the kind of Meta that Koreans love. Korean Soloqueue is all about fighting early game and applying early game pressure; that's why so many early game champions are popular over there when they aren't here. Because that's the kind of meta that Korean's like; aggressive and brawl-y. I think its just that Korea got cocky and got smacked down for it. Or its rigged; who knows. I'm just glad that *finally* it isn't a Korean team winning. :/ Competition is boring and stale when you know who is going to win. That's why I'd say that the previous two Worlds were less successful; everyone just assumed that SKT would win and at least one of them, they did.
> [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=0NPeIaEk,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-30T18:07:35.301+0000) > > IDK what you mean by the meta has shifted. **This is the kind of Meta that Koreans love**. Korean Soloqueue is all about fighting early game and applying early game pressure; that's why so many early game champions are popular over there when they aren't here. Because that's the kind of meta that Korean's like; aggressive and brawl-y. > NOPE, SoloQ in ALL regions are about early game champions, there is no difference about that Historically from season 3 onwards, LCK teams got the edge by being far better at control, vision, rotations and decision making, they always somewhat suffered a more chaotic style like what LMS did in the past, or China in recent years but were able one way or another to come out on top, at least at Worlds Once LCK teams lost part of that advantage, it became anyone's game to get and the field leveled up. And to be honest, it is not like this Worlds meta just "happened", it was EU and China and partially C9 pushing it towards the current situation
: I'm talking about one pick here and how it was not the sole problem of one game. If I wanted an entire series, I'd have done it. I'll let you go ahead and make the last remark from here.
> [{quoted}](name=GeminiRune,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=3v8fnATB,comment-id=0002000000000000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-30T04:04:10.502+0000) > > I'm talking about one pick here and how it was not the sole problem of one game. If I wanted an entire series, I'd have done it. > > I'll let you go ahead and make the last remark from here. The point I am making is that Viktor pick was the specific problem for game 2 entire C9 draft, because whatever plan they had for using it, FNC turned it around and ruined C9 strategy to use it and forced them to use it as an emergency flex... which wasn't the problem per se, but was the conseqeunce of having to scramble to not completely getting destroyed by FNC...because once Jayce was pulled out and with last pick of Phase 2 avaiable for mid, FNC just had autowon two laning match-ups in top/mid no matter what champs would C9 choose in Phase 2 In general, C9 tried to draft using the same concepts of their winning games, but FNC completely neutered them, the Viktor pick look like the most glaring example for me because it actually effected an entire draft, but that's not even the game C9 lost in the worst manner, tbh. I don't get the hate on Tristana pick in game 1 to be honest, she still works well in synergy with Braum and they wanted to get the late game advantage over the Sivir pair with the supposed late game Lissandra advantage over LeBlanc (hoping in Ekko winning top and snowballing too), it is just that in the immediate start of the game Sven couldn't get anything from the lvl1 red buff steal because of the good FNC vision defense in top side of the map while FNC got the pick on mid with Broxah on a questionable choice by Jensen to permapush so everything that C9 spent for the invade was for nothing and Sneaky wasn't given the time to scale The Sven suicide play after that was just him trying to force a play because they had immediately lost their late game win condition after midlane start... he had no need to keep going in and suicide, but he deemed that a 1 for 1 giving Ekko an assist and lane priority would have been a good trade at that point to feed Ekko and try to win through top, it just backfired spectacularly and it backfired because I'd argue Licorice was horrendous too in that play, as he approached Bwipo from the wrong angle and eat too much damage while going in and had to use ulti so early he couldn't kill help in killing Bwipo and neither had the ulti drag the play on the FNC collapse to get something out of it... especially given that he overstayed for no reason to farm after his ult while Sven was chasing Bwipo
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Ale non è male

Level 115 (EUW)
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