: Link me to where she has 13% ban rate since this is where I got my numbers from https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/riven/kr/top/diamond
: It's not the same are you trolling? Those were big nerfs as a result her playrate went down and her banrate which was around 20% went down to about 3%. Like her damage is not that much higher then most tops and that is actually a fact like play her vs Aatrox and she gets shit on. The problem was that she has too much safety from both conqueror and her e which both got nerfed.
I mean, her banrate peaked at around 26% and is down to 13% (not 3%). Her playrate peaked at around 13% and is down to 11%. Riven's issue is that she gets to dictate the pace of the laning phase due to her high mobility with high uptime which results in her being incredibly difficult to stop when ahead and incredibly difficult to punish when behind. Her damage with her ultimate is absurdly high and she is able to 100-0 a lot of top laners even when they're ahead if they choose to fight her without waiting for her to use her Q.
: Can you provide a source for that information? I kinda doubt it, tbh, since the only actual "strictly physical shield" in this game currently is Camille's passive and nothing else.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bandit Queen,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=7BNeefLr,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-11T17:11:24.890+0000) > > Whilst the word "phobia" is taken to mean fear, it does actually have a correct usage as "aversion" since its original definition has a much broader scope. This is why we have materials that are "hydrophobic" (repels water, an inanimate material cannot be scared), as well as terms like "homophobia" (a dislike for homosexuals). > > So, yeah, not only is it annoying to you, it's annoying for no reason. Just another word with multiple uses... or not even really a word in this case. i dont think the cases are comparable. youre right, that "hydrophobia" is technically the wrong use of the word aswell. chemical compounds dont experience fear, or hatred/dislike. so neither phobia nor aversion is technically correct in this case. it would have to be "repulsion" or "hydro-repulsive". but still one is a scientific term to describe how chemicals are interacting with each other, and the other case is describing a persons dislike towards another person (the reason doesnt even matter). the scientific use (or technically misuse) of it doesnt make the use of the word correct in the context of dislike for homosexuals, or dislike of another person for any reason in general. >A phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, defined by a persistent and excessive fear of an object or situation.
You're way too hooked on the definition of "phobia" as a word. It does not require "phobia" as a suffix to mean the same thing. If it was "homo phobia" or even "homo-phobia", then yes. Since it's "homophobia" then no. Besides that, if a misuse is common enough it becomes correct. This is a pretty awkward area of language that results in some pretty terrible definitions being correct ("literally" in the Oxford dictionary has 2 opposite meanings: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/literally). Even if we presume that the word "phobia" is exclusive to fears, words like "homophobia" and "transphobia" are sufficiently ingrained in the language that they're correct by default.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ayzev,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=7BNeefLr,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-11T15:56:54.389+0000) > > It isn't inciting hate towards the gays. If it's inciting any hate, it's towards the company that's using gay folks for PR. "phobia" means fear. it lowkey pisses me off every time the word is being misused. the correct term to what people want to say is actually "aversion" = "a strong dislike or disinclination." im usually not a grammar nazi, but this one is really anoying for some reason.
Whilst the word "phobia" is taken to mean fear, it does actually have a correct usage as "aversion" since its original definition has a much broader scope. This is why we have materials that are "hydrophobic" (repels water, an inanimate material cannot be scared), as well as terms like "homophobia" (a dislike for homosexuals). So, yeah, not only is it annoying to you, it's annoying for no reason. Just another word with multiple uses... or not even really a word in this case.
Moody P (NA)
: Illaoi is dead
What was the bugfix?
: > [{quoted}](name=Bandit Queen,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKHEEU8I,comment-id=00010000000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-04T06:10:11.468+0000) > > Hey now, there's only 2 divisions between us I wasn't trying to be like "Oh my god look at how much better than this guy I am." Merely trying to point out that, hey, you're a KDA player, that's great. Well, it isn't really but y'know. Given that the two people you're responding to are more successful than you despite their worse KDAs, maybe you shouldn't be valuing KDA so highly. Maybe you should look at the champions we're playing and go "Oh hey, in teamfights you're both playing champions with no defensive mobility that jump in to the entire enemy team with no way out and the only way they live is if you win the teamfight." > > If the half of a death less per game you're getting (your average when I checked mine was 4.8 vs. my 5.3) was as impactful as you seem to believe, you'd be winning a lot more. After all, you barely die at all, right? More successful as in getting better coin flip?
> [{quoted}](name=GhostOfTsushima,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKHEEU8I,comment-id=000100000000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-04T06:25:28.833+0000) > > More successful as in getting better coin flip? If you play better than your opponents you'll climb eventually. If you're <50% winrate after hundreds of games then you're just not playing well enough.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bandit Queen,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKHEEU8I,comment-id=000100000000000100010000,timestamp=2019-06-03T21:49:42.671+0000) > > Avg is 6.3/5.4/6.6 but, nice maths skills. > > EDIT: And hey, is your KDA translating into winrate for you? Because you're seeming a little in the negative there. Maybe you're not one to talk about how to win games given that you're lower winrate and lower tier than both of us, eh? I may be lower tier but trust me, the skill gap difference isn't that huge for many of you boosted kid with that trash Death ratio tryna back it up with your shit excuse
> [{quoted}](name=GhostOfTsushima,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKHEEU8I,comment-id=0001000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T22:44:23.584+0000) > > I may be lower tier but trust me, the skill gap difference isn't that huge for many of you boosted kid with that trash Death ratio tryna back it up with your shit excuse Hey now, there's only 2 divisions between us I wasn't trying to be like "Oh my god look at how much better than this guy I am." Merely trying to point out that, hey, you're a KDA player, that's great. Well, it isn't really but y'know. Given that the two people you're responding to are more successful than you despite their worse KDAs, maybe you shouldn't be valuing KDA so highly. Maybe you should look at the champions we're playing and go "Oh hey, in teamfights you're both playing champions with no defensive mobility that jump in to the entire enemy team with no way out and the only way they live is if you win the teamfight." If the half of a death less per game you're getting (your average when I checked mine was 4.8 vs. my 5.3) was as impactful as you seem to believe, you'd be winning a lot more. After all, you barely die at all, right?
: > [{quoted}](name=Bandit Queen,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKHEEU8I,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-03T19:18:25.963+0000) > > Not sure why you're so up in arms about him having 5-6 deaths on when yours are generally around 5 also and the one champion you aren't around 5 on - Kha'zix - is an opportunistic assassin you're not supposed to die on. You have as close as 7.0 death ratio, idk why you're even on this conversation feeding that hard
> [{quoted}](name=GhostOfTsushima,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKHEEU8I,comment-id=00010000000000010001,timestamp=2019-06-03T21:19:16.994+0000) > > You have as close as 7.0 death ratio, idk why you're even on this conversation feeding that hard Avg is 6.3/5.4/6.6 but, nice maths skills. EDIT: And hey, is your KDA translating into winrate for you? Because you're seeming a little in the negative there. Maybe you're not one to talk about how to win games given that you're lower winrate and lower tier than both of us, eh?
: > [{quoted}](name=Son of spartar,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKHEEU8I,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-06-03T16:53:56.274+0000) > > Nah i'm good, kda means nothing to me as long as i win the game. Anyone can win by getting carry
> [{quoted}](name=GhostOfTsushima,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eKHEEU8I,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T18:46:24.962+0000) > > Anyone can win by getting carry Not sure why you're so up in arms about him having 5-6 deaths on when yours are generally around 5 also and the one champion you aren't around 5 on - Kha'zix - is an opportunistic assassin you're not supposed to die on.
sVzMyron (EUW)
: I don't have a 29% wr, that's the pathetic rate at which riot sucessfully makes decent games. My winrate is close to 95%. A game that demotes you with 95% lol that's not a game, it's afkcn joke.
Or maybe you're actually just a bronze level player and you think you're good for some unjustified reason. If you like, I can play with you on my smurf and carry you to gold and you can see how you fare in the big bad world of being averagely good at the game. Spoiler alert: if you're losing 71% of your bronze games, it's not going to get better. If you're better than the people at the elo you're at you'll climb. Climbing CAN take a long time. If you're a low plat player, be prepared to spend a hefty number of games climbing through G1/2. If you're really a gold 1 player then you should be able to achieve a really high winrate in bronze because - with the champion you play especially - you really can get fed and solo carry games. Harsh truths, bud. If you can't win in bronze then you're probably an iron level player.
sVzMyron (EUW)
: climbing is WAYYY too slow
Isn't the issue you have with climbing your 29% winrate and not the LP you gain on the rare occasion you win? SHOULD you be climbing with a 29% winrate? No. System seems fine in this instance.
: >In the air long enough If you aren't doing that correctly, you're not playing her right. >Sona's Q Cannot be dodged It can be easily, and I emphasize easily, outranged. It can also still does less damage. Yuumi's Q radius is closer to 1200 units, vs Sona's ~825. >Sona's abilities affect more than one target. I covered that. >Sona has better laning due to her range and reliability Uhh... her Auto's the only thing with longer range... again, Yuumi's Q can maneuver through a massive area. And whenyou're ALWAYS on your 'target', Range doesn't mean much for a heal. (If your jungler is over 1000+ units away, you're either being Zoned or something, thus your Jungler would be derping hard on his engage). ___ Your every statement is just "She sucks". You don't explain WHY that makes her suck more. You state it like you expect it to be accepted as a truth. Soraka heals one target, doesn't make her worse than Sona, for example. If anything you'd compare Yuumi's E to Soraka's W, more likely than not. (Spoiler: Yuumi loses this one super hard).
the thing is that if we're talking single target she also loses to Nami who... isn't single target
: Huge inconsistency with Hecarim R+E combo and Poppy's W
Poppy w triggers on the ult, dealing the damage but not knocking up/stopping the dash because he is unstoppable. Working as intended, I'm afraid.
y0r1ck (NA)
: Yeah, I told someone to pull up their diapers and the whole comment got removed. Not sure if I can't call people babies anymore? Can a mod clarify? Is it the diaper or the baby that's too insulting?
You're clearly insulting someone. The OP isn't necessarily, although I can see how you could perceive it as such.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bandit Queen,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F0flEaku,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-25T14:35:41.235+0000) > > A champion that can kill you even as a squishy with one rotation of abilities without a lead isn't weak. Weak early game top laners are not bursting you down like Riven can. You better nerf every champion in the game then. You're telling me Annie needs a lead to burst down a squishy champion with 1 rotation? How about Zed? Cho'Gath? Graves? Lee Sin? Insert any name and they literally can kill a squishy with 1 rotation of spells. EVEN TANKS LIKE POPPY AND RAMMUS can kill a squishy with one rotation of spells, without a lead. Your logic is typical boards garbage and makes absolutely no sense. Get out of here with your misguided bull.
Are we making the argument that these champions are weak at the point they are doing this? My understanding is that general concensus is that Poppy and Rammus are very strong at the points in the game that they can do this (which isn't the whole game). Most top laners do not have kill pressure within a burst combo in lane from full HP. Riven regularly does, and yet you're stating that she is weak. This is not a comment where I am saying she is overpowered because she can kill someone with a rotation of abilities, I am saying she is _not weak early game because she can kill someone with a rotation of abilities_. Let's be honest, it isn't even a whole rotation most of the time. Aside from that, Graves and Cho'gath are not killing you within one rotation of abilities. Graves is primarily auto-attack based which, hey, makes talking about ability rotations kind of dumb, and Cho'gath simply does not do that much damage in lane. Cho pokes, whittles you down, and then narrowly creates kill pressure by outsustaining you and getting you below half HP. This is not Riven's playstyle. Riven presses R, spends a q to gapclose and bursts you from full HP whilst you spend more time CC'd than not.
: You are missing more fundamental lessons than that so far it seems. Perhaps you should learn about target audiences, what is sexy and marketing before you try to talk about these things lol
I hope that your misconceptions about male attraction, about what is sexy, allow you to have pride in yourself. Unfortunately, most men prefer skinny women with curves only on their breasts and ass. If you don't believe me, go find our which lol characters get lewded the most. Here is a hint: the top 2 have 4 letters, skinny waists and big boobs
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F0flEaku,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-24T16:09:59.951+0000) > > An early game AD nerf to Vayne's ult would certainly do a decent amount. Pretty sure they've done that kind of change before too. They aren't looking at stats nerfs. Riot Maple told me before he left the balance team that they will most likely make the Tumble CDR scale with ultimate rank. https://i.gyazo.com/1a301b5af7a2ee9647409f34e6202b51.png If they love tap Vayne then they better love tap Jinx as well. Vayne's at a 51.17% win rate on u.gg. Jinx is at 53.03%. Vayne, Riven and Jinx all need it.
I'm fine with a Jinx nerf. You don't see the same outrage about Jinx because she actually feels fair to play against. That doesn't mean she isn't too strong.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bandit Queen,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F0flEaku,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-04-24T18:26:03.282+0000) > > It's a fairly misleading statistic. Riven has a power trough mid game if she doesn't snowball. This means that between 20 and 25 minutes is her weakest point. She's very powerful early on, particularly at level 6. She has kill threat on a lot of top laners basically from full health, and is tuned in a way that punishes melee champions for fighting her because her damage numbers presume that if she wants to engage she has to use at least one of her dashes to do so. Whilst a lot of heavier top laners, such as Renekton, can walk into this and be fine, the combination of this and her mobilty and decent waveclear can make her very hard to punish in lane when she is behind. > > For the most part I have been fairly successful against Riven this season. This doesn't make her killing me from 90% almost within CC lock because we're both level 6 and she is only down 1 kill feel any better. It depends what champion the enemy is playing. Some champions are easy to punish at level 6 for Riven, such as Fiora , Ryze, Quinn, Teemo, squishy champions which Riven can take down with one rotation of spells. Most other champions that's far from the case. Garen, Darius, Galio, Wukong, Urgot... 1 kill behind Riven is not killing any of then at 6 without Jungle help or some miracle outplay or bad mistake by the opponent. I know a lot about Riven, I have 3 accounts with 400-500,000 Mastery on her and I've climbed to Gold at least 1 time every season since season 4 mostly using Riven. I'm not just a Riven 1 trick. I understand how to use almost every champion in the game, which is why I love playing ARAM.
A champion that can kill you even as a squishy with one rotation of abilities without a lead isn't weak. Weak early game top laners are not bursting you down like Riven can.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bandit Queen,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F0flEaku,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2019-04-25T07:26:31.261+0000) > > Your suggestion for a nerf is a lot more heavy handed than I would have initially gone with despite the fact that you apparently disagree with nerfing her. > > Vayne is a high skill, match up dependent adc in an unfavorable meta. Why is 51% winrate broken? read again "I DON'T disagree" Anyway, the meta isn't really "unfavorable" anymore. Enchanters are back, tanks are creeping back patch by patch.
What's the difference to you between "overwhelming" and "broken"? To me if she is overwhelming she is broken. You say she isn't broken, which to me would mean we shouldn't nerf her, but you also say she's overwhelming.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Not ToB alone, but combined with Ravenous...that's a different beast by itself. Heals her off of BotRK and her Silver Bolts. Since both are %hp damage and RH heals her off of both coupled with Rage Blade's double on hit proc, you get the point.
Ravenous hinter on Vayne literally only heals her on condemn and silver bolts. It interacts with such a small portion of her damage that she is a very poor ravenous user at least until 2 items.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bandit Queen,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F0flEaku,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-04-24T18:36:55.132+0000) > > Are you trying to imply that the power shift to Taste of Blood, which is pretty much the only thing being changed to have a lower CD but lower value per proc, a rune which Vayne does not primarily take and has a lower-than-average winrate with, is going to be the big Vayne nerf that will bring her into line - in which case I would like to question how it breaks Vayne specifically but not any other ADC. I don't disagree that she is a bit overwhelming right now but how is 51.17% win rate "broken"? As someone who plays Vayne and is approaching 1.3 million mastery points I believe the following change would bring her in to line > Final Hour (R) > > Tumble Cooldown reduction reduced to 10 / 30 / 50% based on spell rank from 50% all ranks. What people need to remember is **TUMBLE IS MAXED 2ND** it doesn't get maxed until level 13.
Your suggestion for a nerf is a lot more heavy handed than I would have initially gone with despite the fact that you apparently disagree with nerfing her. Vayne is a high skill, match up dependent adc in an unfavorable meta. Why is 51% winrate broken?
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Sauce? https://m.u.gg/lol/champions/vayne/build U.GG was, if memory helps, the site Riot said has the closest numbers to their's. Even OP.GG was full of Taste of Blood + Ravenous until the changes to ToB were announced, so yes, the change did affect her as players already started working with other runes. I wish I would've taken a screen shot, but I can confirm that few days ago when I made my thread on Riven and Vayne, all other rune setups had less winrate that the domination duo according to 3 sites, OP.GG, U.GG and Blitz (Tho Blitz is an app not a site, point still stands). Tho probably the new Athene's rush on supports contributed to the swap in runes, not just the shift to ToB.
The thing about u.gg for runes is that it just shows a "recommended set-up" without justifying it much. Lolalytics, which apparently shows increased stats but for comparing runes should be accurate, shows higher pick rate for inspiration than domination and a slightly higher winrate. Didn't bother looking around. Besides that, ToB is not breaking Vayne.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: What do you guys smoking? Vayne's getting a change next patch, tho I'm not sure if it's a buff or nerf as the small power shift can go either way. The lower cool down can facilitate more uses thus more benefits, but the lower value per use will be a nerf if she doesn't get to use it often. Guess buff or nerf will depend on the situation. But because many of you don't even know the whole reason why Vayne is strong, you won't know what I'm talking about.
Are you trying to imply that the power shift to Taste of Blood, which is pretty much the only thing being changed to have a lower CD but lower value per proc, a rune which Vayne does not primarily take and has a lower-than-average winrate with, is going to be the big Vayne nerf that will bring her into line - in which case I would like to question how it breaks Vayne specifically but not any other ADC.
: I don't think that's a good solution. Have you even looked at Riven's win rate in games under 25 minutes? https://champion.gg/champion/Riven/Top That's right, 49.07% Riven's win rate doesn't spike until late game, at 30+ minutes in, because she's an _item reliant champion_. Don't get me wrong, all champions need items, but Riven specifically needs items because she doesn't have great base damage on any of her abilities. Her passive is a percentage deal, which is based from her bonus AD, and all of her spells are also based on scalings more than her base damages. Riven is designed to specifically be a late game champion, and that's exactly why her win rate is always high. When Riven makes it to late game, she does what she's supposed to do. I personally can't understand why no one understands this. Riven's early game is terrible, people who are claiming otherwise are blaspheming because she has shit base damages, shit scaling, and the only good thing she has going for her is the mid range cooldown on her shield to help her survive in lane. The players who beat you out early on Riven are just better than you at the game. That's plain and simple. It wasn't because they had an overpowered champion, it was because they outplayed you or simply had more help from their team. Early match Riven is worse than almost every Top in the game in terms of base damage and scaling. She doesn't straight win 1v1, without having poked the enemy down or made some great decisions. Understanding what to do is a part of the game too, that's what most people on these boards can't comprehend. 99% of these players on the boards are all about that "fight me bro" mentality, run it down mid game play style, and can't comprehend how to deal with champions that counter that. That's precisely what Riven is good at. She's a champion designed to stall into mid and late game against aggressive champions that just want to fight you and kill you, which is what people don't like. At any rate, I'm just some noob who only plays ARAM's so my word doesn't mean much. I gave up on ranked in this game last year, so not sure how much I really care about what anyone on these boards thinks.
It's a fairly misleading statistic. Riven has a power trough mid game if she doesn't snowball. This means that between 20 and 25 minutes is her weakest point. She's very powerful early on, particularly at level 6. She has kill threat on a lot of top laners basically from full health, and is tuned in a way that punishes melee champions for fighting her because her damage numbers presume that if she wants to engage she has to use at least one of her dashes to do so. Whilst a lot of heavier top laners, such as Renekton, can walk into this and be fine, the combination of this and her mobilty and decent waveclear can make her very hard to punish in lane when she is behind. For the most part I have been fairly successful against Riven this season. This doesn't make her killing me from 90% almost within CC lock because we're both level 6 and she is only down 1 kill feel any better.
: ***
Boooo away with your bad jokes this is gameplay we don't meme here.
Rioter Comments
: I Want You to Give an Honest Evaluation
In normals? Sure. I've been in a situation where I had a perma freeze against someone who couldn't come up to break the freeze alone without dying and their jungler refused to help. After some discussion in all chat, I told them to come up and farm for a bit because I wasn't gunna be that much of an asshole in a normal game. Now, if it were ranked...
Ackelope (NA)
: not really, this change makes her weaker at almost every stage in the game and doesn't reward her for hitting specific spikes in the way kayle does. Vayne's current W also scales from 4-14% at ranks 1-5. This means she hits the 14% maxhp damage at level 9, most of the time, since most vayne players max W first. The suggested change makes her weaker at all stages of the game aside from the first few levels, and is an even change at level 18. Not really like kayle much at all if you ask me. what i will say is that i sincerely doubt these changes are impactful enough and are hitting the right things to try and stop vayne from being a problem, but they're really a net nerf by a longshot, and don't give her weird huge spikes in power like kayle has.
Not sure it actually makes her that much weaker. Consider that she gets to max Q, which is what she was doing before the R changes, at which point she was only slightly weak. Versus that version of Vayne, this is a buff all the way until level ~12 (rank 4 silver bolts with Q max first) and a nerf after that until level 18. Or 16 because, hey, most passives stop scaling at 16. This also makes her level 1 incredibly strong, since she will have access to her full damaging toolkit aside from condemn. Other champions we see that on include Bard and Braum and whilst Vayne lacks the stun, you can see from their raw damage what this can mean for a champion's level 1. Just because Silver Bolts will be weaker doesn't mean that Vayne as a whole will be weaker, either. Even besides all of that, Vayne needs a nerf.
5eapea (NA)
: Learning new lanes + utter trash matchmaking
You'll learn more from playing against players decent at their champ than from other first-timers. It's an easy enough trap to form bad habits when you play against bad players when you're new to a champion because you don't get punished for it. So relax, take a few losses on the chin and accept that its part of learning. We've all been there. I got to like 25k Fiora mastery before accepting the champ wasn't for me because I still felt like I was first timing.
No Ganks (EUW)
: Witts End numbers and description are terrible
The other items with scaling damage have similar scaling with not scaling at early levels, the logic being that you won't have the item at those early levels and thus the base damage is an accurate indication of how much it will do when you buy it. I think.
Rioter Comments
Flagg (EUW)
: @Riot - Anacoluthons in skin bios
Yeah, these are acceptable sentence structures in English (including English English and Australian English). It's possible that if you were at a very high level of studying the language then it would be different, I don't know, but it's a fairly common way to write things.
: > Rioters should not willfully lie to the playerbase and should be held accountable. Agree. > lie on Twitter that it is a "western phenomenon" I said that her frustration is a western phenomenon. She is banned 60% more often in NA than her global average. Ban rate is a readily available statistic that we believe can be correlated to frustration. I also said on Twitter that Riven is a strong champion right now. Somehow that didn't make this post. There are good justifications to be made for nerfing Riven. I personally think some are pretty compelling. Good arguments can be constructed to nerf many things, however, and we want to be sure we're applying consistent measures in our approach to balance. I think we've not been great at this over the years, really. Some champion will always be the strongest one that does not get nerfed in a patch. This patch Riven's pretty darn close to that. If she picks up any more, she's probably due, but we don't think she's crossing that line right now. For those that are actually seeking a discussion, what is the criteria we should be using to justify a nerf to Riven this patch that we'd be 100% happy with applying to champions in the future (NOT the past, as I've already stated we haven't been consistent)?
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEraBg5K,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-03-12T19:15:25.451+0000) > For those that are actually seeking a discussion, what is the criteria we should be using to justify a nerf to Riven this patch that we'd be 100% happy with applying to champions in the future (NOT the past, as I've already stated we haven't been consistent)? I don't think it's possible to create a "criteria" that is universally applicable. Without it becoming incredibly convoluted. In the case of Riven, she is a champion that is significantly harder to play than most, whilst maintaining exceptionally high pickrates and winrates right now. The majority of high difficulty champions float around 49% winrate if popular, and usually only exceed that as their playrate drops to only mains. Riven is a champion that has received multiple indirect buffs, such as new Conq, spear of Shojin, DD changes. Whilst these changes affect some other champions such as Jax who also debatably could use a nerf, Riven is pretty much standing out as the single best top laner in solo queue right now by a fair margin in any elo above, like, gold. Lolalytics ranks her as the best champion in the game, even when looking at Chinese or Korean only stats. That said, Riven is a beneficiary of top lane meta. Most of her bad match-ups, such as Kennen and Volibear are out of meta in solo queue. As a result, I don't think she's as strong as many of the people on here believe, but I think that small nerfs at least are in order for her. Since it is her survivability which has increased vastly over several patches, perhaps her shield or base defensive stats would be a good place to look? Something like a base or hp/lvl nerf, and/or a CD increase to her E.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dope Solo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZG2isBsE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-03T19:22:11.605+0000) > > Its an interesting exercise but it fails to make a compelling argument for several reasons: > Anonymous authority, coincidence, generalization, selective observation, small numbers, correlation vs. causation, Reductio Ad Absurdum, and others. > After this round of buffs, all I see is Zed banned in every game anyway, usually by both teams. The numbers say Zed has been artificially welfare-pumped into S tier (suck it riot). https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/tierlist/ Can you explain to me how the zed "buffs" were buffs?
He does more damage in the parts of the game where he's not overkilling the target by a lot and only loses damage in the scenarios where his damage was so overkill that it doesn't matter. The damage he gained early is small but significant, as before first backs he can get an extra AA worth of damage with his Q off which DOES matter. In addition, his early game W CD is shorter. The result is that his laning phase is much stronger, and he is as such much more likely to go into the mid game with a lead, which mitigates any potential damage lost from the AD reap. It's a little difficult to math out how much damage Zed gains or loses at different points of the game, since it's related to the ratio of his (lost) reap AD and his bonus AD from other sources. Additionally, depending on the phase of the game Zed's combo changes somewhat. If we assume he lands 2 Qs, 2 AAs, his E and his R, his total bonus AD scaling was 180+200+80+100 = 560% (this includes tAD ratios) and is now 580%. This means his combo deals an additional 20 + 20% bAD damage, which would have to be greater than the damage lost from the reap. Level 6 reaps are often less than 10 AD (and Zed is doing more damage now). Level 11 reaps are often in the range of 20-25 AD (most ADCs go double AS item early, which means their AD is actually not that high - high reaps depend on the presence of an AD caster), with lower reaps not being that uncommon. Additionally, it is rarely worthwhile to alter your ult target for a bigger reap unless you can kill everyone anyway (in which case you're too far ahead for these changes to matter). 25 AD is an extra 140 damage on combo, which is compared to the 20+20% bAD. Presuming Zed has double lethality item, 1 stack of Gathering Storm and double adaptive he will have around 120 bonus AD - or a mere 44 damage compensated. He loses 96 damage on his combo. Of course, the idea is that he was usually doing more than 96 overkill damage at level 11 to the majority of his targets and as such, the damage loss doesn't matter, as well as him being more likely to get ahead early and so doing more damage as a result of that.
IainG10 (EUW)
: If we're gonna play the statistics game, there's way more of us who have worked out this problem in the system, and way fewer of you who think it's fine. Are you sure **you** aren't the one with the confirmation bias, sticking your head in the sand saying 'it's fine for me, so it must be fine for everyone else'?
There's nothing that has been "worked out". People get pissed off at their teammates not winning in that game because, hey, that game their team **was** worse than the enemy, look up the game and go "Oh hey look forced 50% winrate." People spout the myth that Riot confirmed that it's a "forced 50% winrate" when the original post essentially means "we try to put you at games at your skill level so most player's winrates will eventually level out at 50%".
: Let's talk about "Forced 50% Winrate"
I don't feel like responding to 10 comments saying the same thing so. > Your opponents get better, your teammates get better. At the same rate. This is absolutely true. Yeah, y'all don't feel like it is. It's negativity bias and confirmation bias. You're actually getting carried easily as often as when you have uncarriable games. That's the nature of a PVP team-based game.
Asud (EUNE)
: Of course it's forced. Whenever i am at lower LP (from 0 to 80) i get teams of all types, good, sometimes bad, most of the time average. And it depends a lot on how i play it. BUT whenever i come to one game from promos or in the promos itself. I must by default get literally inting team. Dont let them fool you. Everything is tracked. If they can show you at the end of the season how many times you died to Yasuo and how many times you killed a Yasuo. Trust me they know everything. They know which accounts have tendency to disconnect and go afk. They know lose streaks and win streaks and everything that matters. And when you are near to promote to next division you will get these people from elo hell in your team if possible. The system is not designed to help you climb. They dont give a damn. The system is designed to annoy you and to stop you from climbing so you get tilted and play even more. Thats all thats important to them. That we play as much as possible. Not our climb, not our mental health. Nothing. Only play time.
A lot of games have people on promotion series on both teams. Which team is being matched to lose there? Why is it that people who are genuinely good at the game do climb, and quickly at that?
Saianna (EUNE)
: > No. Your opponents get better, your teammates get better. At the same rate. From my experience my teammates don't get better, or they don't get better even half as fast as enemies.
In theory they're supposed to get better. Both teams are picked from the same MMR range, after all.
Rioter Comments
Salron (NA)
: This is the original one you're looking for: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/tE2wrYIH-the-game-seems-to-be-fine-again-introducing-the-yasuometer
Rioter Comments
Seenan (NA)
: Could just lower/kill her sustain from her W on monsters. The E change is a good start.
Camille W only heals vs champions already. Funnily, when it did heal vs. monsters she was so overtuned as a top laner that she wasn't regularly played jungle.
: Vi Changes are almost good. Please Buff > Adjust. Right now they're hurting her adaptability.
One of the comments Riot made with regards to this set of changes, is that the E change (making it scale better with attack speed) is actually a fairly significant buff. The other changes look like a small nerf across the board unless you proc denting blows twice in one fight. With just 1 proc your passive CD is at 9s throughout the game, which isn't bad at all, and if you do manage 2 procs (which is probably actually fairly hard in teamfights) then you're at 6s. I don't think those changes are bad. With regards to the AP ratio and crit changes to Vi's E, they're probably not using any of her power budget. Riot did the same thing with Garen, where people were requesting that they made his E crit again and they did it because "Crit Garen is not going to be stronger than regular Garen builds, so we can make this change without using any of his power budget". I doubt this is any different. Aside from that, I think Vi is pretty good at the moment in soloQ. Yeah, she's not exactly seeing pro play, but with Camille being kicked out the jungle next patch Vi pretty much regains her niche and these changes - as long as they come out even slightly power positive (which is the stated intention, as such if they end up a nerf Vi will likely be buffed the following patch) - will probably bring Vi up into the spot light. 52% winrate, even with a fairly low pick rate isn't a sign of being underpowered.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sevje,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3bW3Zf7,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-21T03:33:08.277+0000) > > the actual bounty is about 8 cs. 300g is the base kill gold. thats stupid. they should just say "150g bounty" if thats true.
When you die it says "Total Kill Gold: 450g", even. Either way, you can try it out if you like. The 450g includes kill gold.
: I could see some weird exploits with liandries and hunters talisman with this one.
I don't think Liandries or Hunters Talisman tick when re-applied (I could be wrong) but if they don't then it will not cause an issue. There's also the Kennen R solution, where it ticks every 0.25s but can only affect each target if they haven't been affected in the last 1s.
: Yeah it's about 25 CS worth. Pretty bonkers.
the actual bounty is about 8 cs. 300g is the base kill gold.
: I've seen stunned camilles still pull themselves to whatever wall they've shot their grapples to - whether stunned before or after she's already moving when those grapples hit the wall. I've seen silenced camilles still get that bonus roll away because it wears off by the time she's pulled herself to the wall. Yes. She still gets part 2 if it wears off. Ezreal and Tristana aren't as much of a problem since they don't have a movement ability that exceeds the distance covered by Riven's entire kit on a shorter cooldown... and yes, this assumes she ISN'T launching herself at another champion.
Okay, put this way, at least some stuns will interrupt a Camille E whilst she is moving. I know for a fact that Cocoon does, and that several others also do. And yes, she can E2 if the CC wears off. Making her wait 2s before using E2 is still pretty good if you just CC her at the right time?
: My biggest gripe with Camille is that her E functions as a get-out-of-jail-free card in how if she's already got her hooks flying out before she's CC'd she just gets pulled to safety anyways. If you silence her (or apply some other form of CC) WHEN those hooks are out, she shouldn't get the pull. It's also one of the abilities that will move you the farthest. Everyone else who has a skill like that usually has some way to effectively interrupt or mitigate the ability. Other nitpicks include how her W can be cast while moving. Most other champions who have some form of CC like this often have to briefly stop their movement to use the ability. Also, her Q's true damage conversion doesn't scale off of skillranks, but her levels.
if Camille couldn't move when casting W, the animation would have to be a LOT faster otherwise she probably wouldn't even put a rank into it. As I mentioned before, the trick with Camille's E is to hit her as she starts moving if using a stun (it stops the dash mid-flight) or displacement (d'uh). Roots, silences will stop her from re-activating at the wall which will deny part of the dash. Otherwise, it's just the same issue of any other delayed dash. If you start the cast before you get CC'd then the cast still completes. It's just more prominent on Camille because the delay is much longer. Ezreal, Tristana can do similar things and Trists W is fairly similar distance to Camille's E1, whilst not needing to go towards a wall. That said, do similar abilities have any more methods of interrupting than Camille's E? Most dashes can only really be stopped by displacements. Since Camille's is so highly telegraphed, you should be able to displace her out of it much more easily than a Trist W etc.
Rìveń (EUNE)
: If that's what it did, it'd be useless, as you'd be converting the damage to true after resistances have already been accounted for... So your 200 damage gets reduced to 100 by resistances, then 20 of that gets turned into true. In the end you'd still be dealing 100 damage. Which is why it converts **pre-mitigation damage**. Oh and also, something a lot of people seem to miss, it doesn't just convert auto attacks, it doesn't just convert physical damage. It converts **ALL DAMAGE**, including magical.
Show more

Bandit Queen

Level 209 (EUW)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion