: Wukong Update- Prepped For PBE!
1- Shift Wukong's power towards the early game and away from the late game, while remaining roughly power neutral in the long run I dont think anyone asked for this but its rather something that was imposed on us. Whilst I agree youve shifted late game power to early game I really dont see how you consider him 'power neutral' in the long run with how much youve hit his late game. You've obly somewhat hit your mark here. 2- Give Wukong players the tools they need to feel competitively viable in early lane phase/jungle Seeing as we have no passive if we fall upon an AP champ in lane idk how you feel we have 'the tools to feel viable in early lane phase'. 3- Create new outplay opportunities that enhance Wukong's identity as a tricky, uniquely mobile skirmisher with a hit-and-run combat pattern I think youve hit the mark on this one. Just seems a shame that we can still only get a small handful of rotations in before going oom.
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13
When can we expect the Wukong changes to hit PBE/live? {{champion:62}}
Infernape (EUW)
: Tbh I preferred the original prototype kit's passive.
Yeah same tbf. I liked the idea of stacking passive. But these changes are much morw straight up buffs than the last proposals so i cant complain.
LÈ APE (EUW)
: ***
They want you to explore other build options but tbh with thos change list im 95% sure lethality will still be best build.
Inra (NA)
: Do you guys want him to be more of an assassin or more of a bruiser? The shield passive suggests bruiser. Also please for the love of god buff his q at rank 1. I don't know if you purposefully left it out but the 10 damage for 40 mana is a pain.
Get off the 'q rank 1 so bad' bandwagon. Its old and was never accurate and is being buffed anyway
Inra (NA)
: His passive suggests they want him to build bruiser health items
Without nerfing his numbers or changing his scalings theres no way he builds tank... they cam do whatever to his passive. Maybe his E doing magic damage might have an effect but honestly 1.25 scaling ult plus decoy now autoing up to 100% ad is plenty to keep him full lethality.
: Wukong Update- Progress Report!
So basically we have the exact same chamo with a couple of sweet buffs? Im kind of happy with this. I think its to do with the fact that the goals for the changes have changed from the last time Wu was on the PBE. Does that mean you guys are happy with Wukong still building lethality and being a squishy assassin? Because thats what these changes suggest... just a handful of buffs to his existing kit.
: Would it be possible for 'S' to cancel Wu's ult as well since 'W' will stop it?
You can just cancel it by pressing R again...
: Hi everyone, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for all the detailed, thorough and well-written responses I've seen so far. Sadly I don't have the bandwidth to respond to each piece of feedback individually, but I've read every single post and proposal and will be keeping them in mind moving forward. Instead, I'm going to respond to a few of the most common things I've seen so far: * "_E into R feels bad because the attack speed is wasted_." Heard. I'll look into ways to mitigate this, but can't promise anything. * "_Wukong has mana problems._" Yep, he sure does. This is largely by design because his poke/trading pattern is fairly low counterplay. We gate this power similarly with Malphite's Q. I'll look into this, but know that it's an intended weakness of the character and buffing it would likely mean we pull damage out of his kit (which would hurt burst/assassination builds). * "_You're killing assassin Wukong_!" Not exactly. The goal is for it to remain "viable." That doesn't mean "the clear and obvious best way to build him in every game." It means you can still find success with it. And indeed, these changes are likely going to push Wukong more towards the bruiser space as his primary class and combat style. All we're committing to is that we aren't objectively denying the existence of lethality builds in the same way we did with, say, AP Master Yi (which was deemed unhealthy for the game). * "_AP on Q is bad_!" Please note that we're experimenting with giving Q bonus magic damage that scales with spell rank; NOT AP ratios. We have no intention of asking Wukong players to build Amplifying Tomes to deal damage. The goal is to slightly reduce burst damage from lethality builds while simultaneously making it harder for opponents to shut down Wukong's trades with early armor purchases. * "_Wukong NEEDS CC on his base kit_!" I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I disagree. A lack of CC is a very important aspect of his weakness profile, thus incentivizing and rewarding Wukong players for skillfully utilizing their stealth, clones, and hit-and-run mechanics. Wukong is actually fairly unique in how he approaches enemies and mitigates damage, which is something we want to preserve. Giving him a slow or root means we'd have to pull power elsewhere, which would likely end up hurting his unique identity.
Can we also acknowledge that the E 'changes' are very placebo at this point. It would be very difficult if not impossible to utilise the 'clones are considered units and can intercept spells and be targeted' part intentionally. A better way to implement play making potential would be to do something like 'E: wukong selects a target and disappears... three clones then dash and attack the target and two nearby enemies. Wukong then reappears replaces one of the clones (i.e the one attacking the primary target.)' This change essentially adds the yi-like wuju element of disappearing and reappearing and gives the trickster/out play potential of negating incoming damage by a well timed E or resetting the targeting of incoming abilities.
: Hi everyone, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for all the detailed, thorough and well-written responses I've seen so far. Sadly I don't have the bandwidth to respond to each piece of feedback individually, but I've read every single post and proposal and will be keeping them in mind moving forward. Instead, I'm going to respond to a few of the most common things I've seen so far: * "_E into R feels bad because the attack speed is wasted_." Heard. I'll look into ways to mitigate this, but can't promise anything. * "_Wukong has mana problems._" Yep, he sure does. This is largely by design because his poke/trading pattern is fairly low counterplay. We gate this power similarly with Malphite's Q. I'll look into this, but know that it's an intended weakness of the character and buffing it would likely mean we pull damage out of his kit (which would hurt burst/assassination builds). * "_You're killing assassin Wukong_!" Not exactly. The goal is for it to remain "viable." That doesn't mean "the clear and obvious best way to build him in every game." It means you can still find success with it. And indeed, these changes are likely going to push Wukong more towards the bruiser space as his primary class and combat style. All we're committing to is that we aren't objectively denying the existence of lethality builds in the same way we did with, say, AP Master Yi (which was deemed unhealthy for the game). * "_AP on Q is bad_!" Please note that we're experimenting with giving Q bonus magic damage that scales with spell rank; NOT AP ratios. We have no intention of asking Wukong players to build Amplifying Tomes to deal damage. The goal is to slightly reduce burst damage from lethality builds while simultaneously making it harder for opponents to shut down Wukong's trades with early armor purchases. * "_Wukong NEEDS CC on his base kit_!" I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I disagree. A lack of CC is a very important aspect of his weakness profile, thus incentivizing and rewarding Wukong players for skillfully utilizing their stealth, clones, and hit-and-run mechanics. Wukong is actually fairly unique in how he approaches enemies and mitigates damage, which is something we want to preserve. Giving him a slow or root means we'd have to pull power elsewhere, which would likely end up hurting his unique identity.
I agree on the CC point but in that case his damage mitigation should be more reliable. Its a horrible feeling to use clone and be hit with a ton of damage anyway. I think decoy should reduce aoe damage received by a certain percentage. Even if its a small amount it would help. It would make using clone a more reliable tool to 'shut off' combat when wukong sees fit. I feel like this ability to dip in and out of combat is an integral part of his identity... but it feels negated when fighting against aoe champs.
Meddler (NA)
: Intent is it keeps your facing before the cast. Now that you ask I'm wondering whether I've got the facing change in the right spot in the script for that to be the case though. Will check and correct if needed.
Yeah, on PBE the W clone currently changes standing firection to where your cursor was placed just before activating the ability so this needs changing. Also, im not sure how or why but since these most recent PBE changes W has become very clunky and doesnt go off in clutch situations. You have really press and wait on it to ensure it goes off normally. Not sure whats happened here hut really hope this gets fixed.
Meddler (NA)
: It currently goes off nearest two targets. Clicking the leftmost enemy for example will then send two clones out to the right of Wukong's actual target. Did consider randomizing things more, wanted to keeping some predictability to it if possible though, make it a mindgame both sides have some tools to engage in. Also not trying to make too big a deal of that particular aspect of the spell.
Im not sure what the original question here was trying to ask but wondering if there is any champion prioritization on E atm. I think it would make for a nice vhange as the new check area is slightly bigger... it'd be nice is champions could be prioritized primarily and minions or monsters secondarily. A lot of people have been commenting on a lingering E. Has it ever been considered to drop E damage slightly amd let each E clone linger for an additional auto attack just to increase their presence time but not affect damage numbers. (I dont know if this would be a good idea. Just wondering if anything like this has been considered)
Meddler (NA)
: Wukong Prototype on PBE: Additional changes
Ive been following these changes quite avidly for some time and have done a quite a bit of playtesting and interacting with yourself. Bit concermed about the 'W can now pass through thin walls'. I know initially you send this feels too strong and might provide a bit too much on his W and i wholeheartedly agree. What has caused a shift in this attitude? Personally i think its very much overkill and not needed at all. Id personally much rather that extra power be shifted elsewhere. A bit too much trickery lacking counterplay there. (You can stand in front of a wall if being chased and press S. If the enemy doesnt waste their dash/flash you can W over and if they do you can keep your W and walk away). Im not a fan.
: Don't say 'we'. Lot of us Wukong mains love the changes so don't group us all with you.
Yeah i think a lot of Wu mains have a similarish reaction to the changes so far with a vouple of changes coming up frequently... but none of them are what this guy is saying.
Harambe (NA)
: When will these changes be going live on PBE? I am awaiting to give a thorough response regarding what I think of the kit once I officially try it out. It's much more difficult to get into detail without properly implementing the new kit/playstyle.
Seeing as youre quite a prolific name in the Wukong playerbase... can you please make sure to consider the changes for Wukong in the jungle too when you give your thoughts. Would be a shame for is jungle mains to get overshadowed by laners only thinking about how these changes effect them and I know you can give a broader insight than most.
Meddler (NA)
: E potential damage hit here isn't to pay for other changes to the E, but changes to other parts of the kit. I'm not certain it's necessary yet, but suspect it is given other power being added and this seems to be one of the best places to cut damage as a result. E still grants AS. W prioritizes enemies within its range Wukong has just hit, otherwise it'll attack the nearest enemy at present. Pretty open to tweaking its AI, hasn't been a major focus yet. It also benefits from the extended range from his Q passive post spellcast. We haven't done exhaustive jungle testing yet. Some clears on a previous version of this kit looked pretty reasonable, that might have changed though. Wouldn't want to penalize his jungling relative to his laning, my current inclination is he's a champ who should be supported in either position. Appreciate the other feedback, apologies don't have time to respond to everything. Interested in how your thoughts change after seeing it in game on PBE.
Hook me up with a PBE account and I'll let you know ;)
Meddler (NA)
: Prototype Wukong Changes on PBE Context
Currently 0.5m mastery with Wukong in the jungle around mid gold with seasonal climbs from low bronze throughout seasons. Firstly thank you for addressing key frustrations a lot of us monkey mains have been facing with a limited linear kit thats bound by certain playstyles. Now obviously I havent playtested any of these changes and I cant talk for high elo but heres my initial thoughts.... What I really like; Q change. Whilst armor shred is nice, it feels slightly outdated in terms of interaction. I feel like we can stack black cleaver a bit easier with these changes too so it slightly makes up for it. The sustain has been a hig want for Wu players too. I also like that this becomes less bursty and more extended. R change. This should actually help a lot. I dont know if its just me but there has definitely been a number of times where ive been locked into ult and cancelling into an ability is clunky when its needed in a very clutch position. A very appreciated QoL change. Things im unsure of; W change. As this is the biggest change I dont as of yet have an opinion on it. Will have to try it out and see how it goes. Things I dont like; E damage going down to compensate for a difficult to take advantage of change. It would be extremeley difficult to utilise the E clones to block skillshots. The increased range for clones is nice but Id definitely prefer a non change on this ability of it means i dont have to sacrifice core damage. Questions and points to note; Is the attack speed buff element to his E staying? With lower cooldowns I expect one current issue to come up moreso than it already does... mana gating. Is there any changes to mana numbers as a lot of players already struggle with this and they wont be able to take advantage of lower cooldowns if they are still held back by mana numbers. Whilst the W change seems nice, how will the targeting be prioritised? It would be a shame if theres nothing inplace for this and my clone targets minions when theres enemy champions in range. Is there something that I'm missing in terms of his jungle clearing. If anything it seems like early jungle clearing would be slightly worse off with these changes and Wu already has quite a bad clear. Suggestions; If the passive element of Q changed to auto-attacks acter using an ability slow enemies and tge active part had a slight range increase... there would be an appreciable CC element to his base kit that can help with taking scuttle too. Some compensation to his mana numbers. E damage revert. Something small to assist with his early jungle clear. Other than this the listed changes so far seem very promising and a step in the right direction that we mains have been hoping for for a while!! Thank you
: Thoughts on wukong state? i mean thoughts on losing almost all match ups by default? Its depressing {{champion:62}} (any balance change on him pre mini rework? ) Downvotes no replys and hate incoming i already know :D @Meddler ?
Careful. You're not allowed to mention the secret passiveless champ around here.
: This is an endless cycle of working on the same content and group of champions every single year, Meddler. 1) Prioritize heavy handed nerfs, buffs, and sometimes reworks to new champions and recent VGU champions. Why? Because these champions have overloaded kits and everyone at Riot are incredibly bias about them. Let's not even talk about the small group of popular champions Riot Game Developers work on every single year. 2) Change how the ADC role by nerfing the champions and nerfing their itemization. Half way into the season you guys realize it was a mistake to rework and nerf ADC itemization so Riot Game Developers buff specific champions. When it hits preseason ADC are reworked and buffed again, but they will probably be nerfed and reworked again at some point after the preseason. STOP TOUCHING THE ADC ROLE AND ACTUALLY WORK ON OTHER THINGS IN THIS GAME FOR ONE YEAR. SERIOUSLY. 3) When are Enchanters actually going to get adjustments to actual champions so they can compete and be just as fun as the overloaded new champions? When are Enchanters going to offer something unique in their kits so that they are just not sitting in the back and pressing one button? When are Enchanters actually going to be based off of their amazing lore not have their identities dictated by the LCS? ------------- {{champion:117}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:37}} - Are these Enchanters ever going to get work done on them, like you said they would last year? {{champion:43}} - Where is the rework that the large majority of players do not like? You are shoving it down our throats, like the VGU, but it still has yet to come out. Where is it? Is she waiting in a long art que for 2 years just like Lissandra? {{champion:82}} {{champion:72}} - Where is the VGU/reverts? You ruined their identities and there is still no talk about making them better. {{champion:62}} - Not a single Developer ever talks about him, but the community is constantly asking for a new passive and actual work to be done on him. Where is it? ------------ 2019 is the same old Riot Game Developers purposely wasting half of the year working on the same crap they do every year. Rework ADC, prioritize reworks and massive adjustments to popular and new champions/VGU, make promises and fall back on them, ignore conversations and requests about other champions. Why bother supporting any Riot Game Developer anymore? It's just another year talking about how useless ADC are but come the middle of the year they nerf them because the class becomes too overpowered. Then ADC are buffed again in preseason and it has been going on for 3 to 4 years now. When are these Developers actually going to DO SOMETHING FOR OTHER CHAMPIONS THAT ARE NOT POPULAR, NEW, OR A RECENT VGU? Like, it's so annoying to fight for other champions every year to see NOTHING BEING DONE. Nothing is actually getting better with this game and these Developer's work ethic is just continuing to slack year after year. The majority of us want to have faith in this Development team to be an advocate for all 150 plus champions and actually talk and work on them. The harsh reality is only about 30 to 40 champions really get attention every year and the Developers talk about them. These champions are popular ones, new ones, or recent VGU ones. It's becoming quite clear where Developer alliances really lie. There is no effort actually being done on older, mistakes on champions, and outlying champions by this Development team. The community will eventually leave because they are feeling ignored.
Hey, nice comment. Just to let you know though, if you mention Wukong you won't get any response from Riot. That's just how that works.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 5
What is the deciding factor on reworking abilities? I mean if a champion is otherwise healthy but has one ability that just doesn't hit the mark, what would it take to rework that one ability? I ask because recently we have seen an update Lissandra's passive by itself but Ezreal took some additional changes to update his W. The implications rest on other chanps where one ability just feels really off-key. Are we likely to see more one-ability reworks in the future or would the development team opt to only consider champions that requires other changes and updates too? Edit: Any passing comments on Wukongs passive would be really appreciated too (eventhough I know discussions about Wukong are a rocky subject at the moment)
: I hope a rework to not make him as linear as he is right now.
The only problem to this is he would need a full VGU update imo but if that happens he'll have to join the back of the line and it could be over a year for us to actually see something done to him.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 7
What's going on with Wukong? Is there any plans for him? Because I'll be damned if his passive and an ability just adding 10 damage to an auto attack at rank one feels at all fun to play.
: What should his passive be? Most of the ideas I've heard in the past (internally and/or externally) usually have some significant downside to it, whether that be: * Expensive to develop * Overly complex and/or significantly altering his playstyle (which his current players likely enjoy) * Needing to sap power out of the current most powerful parts of his kit
How about every now and again on the map little air currents are left and if wukong travels through them he gets a speed boost. Kind of like stepping on a bard chime. I feel like it works well with the concept of him travelling on clouds.

Blukachu

Level 187 (EUW)
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