: > How was this different before the rework? Zac is a tank. And like every other tank his jungle clear is slow. That's why tanks in general are not in a good spot in this current meta. Every jungler aims to kill scuttle crab as early and soon as possible. Zac ( and every other tank) can't do that. So it's obvious you are gonna lose vs Udyr. His Q was an additional AOE spell which he now doesn't have, weakening his ability to clear the 3 swarm camps. His new Q is also useless vs the other 3 camps, as there is no additional monster to slam them into > I main Zac since season 3. And to be honest, I would not like a revert. Just because it's more fun for me to ult 3-5 people late game and win the fight. Yeh I think this is entirely subjective. For me I favor the old ult, cos y'know, he actually bounced! I miss the zhonya's hourglass interaction /s. It fit better thematically and matches his current R utility wise. > I don't know about you, but ulting 3 or more people, always drives me a soul orgasm While it is satisfying, it's soooooo anticlimactic to dive in and just... STOP! for the channel
> His Q was an additional AOE spell which he now doesn't have, weakening his ability to clear the 3 swarm camps. His new Q is also useless vs the other 3 camps, as there is no additional monster to slam them into Do you know how zac's new Q works? When u slam 2 targets together, it does a AOE dmg around them. So you still damage all camps with the new Q as the old one. You even stun them.
: people just want a revert of his ultimate, most of your post is justifying new Q > old Q, but nobody said they want old Q back. >but now you are able to do more than just pressing "W" after casting ult wat? aside from casting ult and click in a direction what more can you do? lmao >sometimes even trolling your own team mates. New zac has much higher potential to troll team mates, compared to the old one.
> wat? aside from casting ult and click in a direction what more can you do? lmao You can flash behind the enemy, one tap the ult and it will still knock him to your team, just like the old ult did. I was trying to say that after u did this interaction Flash>Ult with the old zac, you were stuck in your ult for 4 second, unable to do anything besides, spamming W. Now when you Flash>Ult you can aa, press w, use q and e. You are not stuck in a 4 second ult animation
: > [{quoted}](name=DONT REVERT ZAC ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jOmW0X43,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-04-14T16:35:33.904+0000) > > How was this different before the rework? Zac is a tank. And like every other tank his jungle clear is slow. That's why tanks in general are not in a good spot in this current meta. Every jungler aims to kill scuttle crab as early and soon as possible. Zac ( and every other tank) can't do that. So it's obvious you are gonna lose vs Udyr. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CydwCx0a-z0 like this video says at 0:58 he's the pioneer of the fast clear. old zac had the fastest or one of the fastest clears
Don't get me wrong. He clears the other camps, as fast as he did before. I was trying to say his clear can sometimes be slow because of the scuttle crab. It's just easier for some champion that has CC at lvl 2 to clear crabs early and dominate the lane pressure against zac. This is his weak spot in the jungle.
: The new Q has as much wave clear as the old one. Its just more complicated. When you slap two targets, it does damage in small area around. So when you slap a range and mele minion you pretty much damage the whole wave. I don't think the damage is different compared to the old Q.
Anyway, they are not reverting the Q.
: Pretty sure most people wouldn't want Q revert if Riot actually gave him some base damage. Old Zac had a role as a niche toplane/support champion given his Q was pretty reliable. New Q is pretty useless for waveclear or trades and he's a pure tank now, he pretty much has no choice but to jungle. If he had some base damage that might change though. As for the R I liked the old R more but both are strong, I'm indifferent. The new one is definitely better in high level play though given it forces flashes or does extreme displacement.
The new Q has as much wave clear as the old one. Its just more complicated. When you slap two targets, it does damage in small area around. So when you slap a range and mele minion you pretty much damage the whole wave. I don't think the damage is different compared to the old Q.
: I don't think they were looking at completely reverting him. Just a 'mostly reverted' version of his ultimate. >"Zac - We’re currently testing a mostly reverted version of the Ult with a few improvements to help it have more clear gameplay and understandable impact."
I know. Im talking about the Q bacause a lot of people commented on RiotScuffies' post, that they want a Q revert too.
Rioter Comments
: A Zac revert would be nice
> his clear speed in the jungle is super slow and his damage is nothing How was this different before the rework? Zac is a tank. And like every other tank his jungle clear is slow. That's why tanks in general are not in a good spot in this current meta. Every jungler aims to kill scuttle crab as early and soon as possible. Zac ( and every other tank) can't do that. So it's obvious you are gonna lose vs Udyr. > I think lots of zac players would like a revert I main Zac since season 3. And to be honest, I would not like a revert. Just because it's more fun for me to ult 3-5 people late game and win the fight. > His kit should be more skilled and stuff Just because he can't death mark and one shot the adc, doesn't mean he is unskilled. He is just a "simpe" champion. (like every other tank) > his current kit is just boring I don't know about you, but ulting 3 or more people, always drives me a soul orgasm
PIlINGU (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=DONT REVERT ZAC ,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=wlGaL2WZ,comment-id=00120002,timestamp=2019-04-12T20:34:49.723+0000) > > You have to be insane, if you actually want to lane as Zac. Have u ever played toplane zac ? Just once in ur league life ? It was exceptionally good. Dude even midlane zac was great if you knew what you where doing.
Yes. And to this day I still pick Zac mid and bot lane for the fun. The problem is it works only below diamond 3, where actually everything works XD
man of tin (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=I wánt to die,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=wlGaL2WZ,comment-id=0024000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-12T22:26:08.625+0000) > > It's because the meta changes. He is not worse because of his kit, but because of the current meta. And idk if u remember but after the rework he was 100% pick or ban :D It's not the meta, the reason he's so shit right now is due to the fact that Riot had to make him shit because his kit in its current state is impossible to balance. As soon as he has healthy numbers in his kit he becomes a monster because of how much utility he has, which isn't good for the game (As we saw with the whole thing right after his rework when his banrate reached over 100%. When that happens you know you fucked up). That's exactly one of the reasons he's being reverted now, the other being that after he wasn't overpowered anymore even most of his mains dropped him because they didn't like his new kit and his playrate became lower than it's ever been, ultimately rendering his rework a complete failure.
Looks like you are gold x)
: uh yes you could... position accordingly and bounce. Only the old one didn't channel anywhere near as long and was better for peel
> Only the old one didn't channel anywhere near as long and was better for peel That is the exact reason it wasn't better for peel, because you were in the air half of the time spamming W. And you could not knock up a target more than once.
: His old ult was way better XD, more versatile, and y'know.... he actually BOUNCED!
U can literally do the same thing with the new ult, that u could do with the old one, but its better. Because with the old ult u were not able to ult 3-5 man into your team and get a guaranteed team fight win.
: Yea this isn't off the table, long term we definitely want to keep solo lane Galio viable.
Zac is having a really hard time in the current meta with all of the dashes and ports adc-s and junglers use. Zac can't fight for the scuttle early game and his impact on the game is based on the enemy champions. So the is no reason to make it more "understandable". It already is. If the enemy team has no escape, Zac is viable. If it's full of dashes and mobility, Zac is useless. He is bad for mirror Jungling, because of his slow jungle clear. He needs over 13 seconds to kill scuttle if he is lvl 3. If he is lvl 2 and doesn't have his E to make the crab easier to kill it might take even longer. This time window is so big, that it's so easy for the enemy jungler to react. Zac has so much counter play. If thresh flays Zac mid-air, the fight is over. I don't know why you are acting like Zac is broken, just because low elo players don't know how to punish him early.
man of tin (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=I wánt to die,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=wlGaL2WZ,comment-id=00240000,timestamp=2019-04-12T20:44:58.774+0000) > > They are gonna make this champion useless again. There is no "YES" here :/ Funny you say that, since he's worse statistically now than he ever was before the rework.
It's because the meta changes. He is not worse because of his kit, but because of the current meta. And idk if u remember but after the rework he was 100% pick or ban :D
Defiants (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=l MrD l,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=wlGaL2WZ,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2019-04-12T17:33:02.118+0000) > > its not like people even played zac before ... he was barely played before rework now theres a load of zac mains everywhere? the new ult is honestly better ... if they reverted it to the old ult but kept the hold R to pancake then im for it HUH????????? People didn't play him before, and people still don't play him now. Where are you even getting this from?
What do you mean "no one" plays Skarner, Sol and Volibear, not Zac. 1. Less people main tanks 2. Zac doesn't have an exiting story, so he is pretty boring for some people. And Zac is the #18th most picked jungler, out of 41. He has 3.40%, compared to Kha'zix who has 5.54%. It's not that big of a difference in the pick rate and it's not like Kha and Zac have been forgotten. They just don't fit well in the current meta. Every champion has his ups and downs. Zac was 100% pick or ban after the rework.
: ***
I don't really think Zac needs a fix. He is good the way he is. He always has 48%-51% wr. And he is not even a problem in competitive. Pro players barely look at him, because of the current meta. Fighting for the river priority and the scuttles, counter jungling and mirror jungling.
ooshawn (NA)
: you are drunk lol. nobody in their right mind would play zac support
No i actually do sometimes, but it's when i really don't care if i would win the game. It only works in low elo, because it's harder for the less experienced players to counterplay Zac.
: The difference is, Annie doesn't also come with overbearing amounts of cc and utility. As it stands, Zac has: - high amount of cc and utility - low amount of basedamage + next to 0 scaling capabilities A perfect champion to fill a support role, only problem being; he's actually a jungler, not a support. So now you've got a jungle champion that's perfect at supporting others but bad at supporting himself. You see if you play Thresh on support , you are actually matched vs another support champion on the enemy team. When you play Zac you are probably not matched vs a support style jungler on the enemy team. What you get is a clash of 2 fundamentally different playstyles. One that needs money to carry and is dependant on items and levels to impact the game vs another who doesn't rely on items and xp that much and can still make big plays even when behind. How do you balance this? The answer is: you can't. If both playstyles have a 50% winrate in solo q, the support style is bound to be abused in coordinated play since it can donate gold to the other players while still retaining its high baseline-efficiency. If in turn you nerf the support junglers down to a balanced winrate in competitive play, they will turn out with little to 0 damage left and have abyssmal win and playrates in solo q.
Yes but this is not that big of a deal because Zac has counterplay. His E can be stopped/canceled, his Q can be dodged, it's easy to dodge his E and Ult (a lot of champions have dashes in the current meta) > How do you balance this? The answer is: you can't. If both playstyles have a 50% winrate in solo q, the support style is bound to be abused in coordinated play since it can donate gold to the other players while still retaining its high baseline-efficiency. And how reverting his ult is gonna help fixing this? > A perfect champion to fill a support role, only problem being; he's actually a jungler, not a support. So now you've got a jungle champion that's perfect at supporting others but bad at supporting himself. There is nothing wrong with having a "support" like champion in the jungle. Ivern is support jungler too. > The answer is: you can't. If both playstyles have a 50% winrate in solo q, the support style is bound to be abused in coordinated play since it can donate gold to the other players while still retaining its high baseline-efficiency. If you think about it, so much champions' gameplay is based on this.
: > And it's obvious, that the people, who want a revert, can't really play the game :) Yeah, because that's the reason why so many support mains suddenly picked up new Zac - exactly; because he's so god damn rewarding while requiring 0 skill. Old Zac was only rewarding if you could actually play him well. You said it yourself : > I'm a Zac main since season 3 and the old version of Zac was completely useless
And in high elo it's different. You need so much more game knowledge to keep your early game stable as Zac, because 90% of the junglers can counter jungle him if his team mates have to lane priority.
: > And it's obvious, that the people, who want a revert, can't really play the game :) Yeah, because that's the reason why so many support mains suddenly picked up new Zac - exactly; because he's so god damn rewarding while requiring 0 skill. Old Zac was only rewarding if you could actually play him well. You said it yourself : > I'm a Zac main since season 3 and the old version of Zac was completely useless
Annie doesn't require skill as well. Just because a champion doesn't require so much skill, doesn't mean he should be reworked. And for me this kind of champions are better, because you can focus more on the macro and not actually the champion.
PIlINGU (EUW)
: Please do tell me the good reasons zacs ult was reworked ? Or the good reasons for the zac rework ? The zac rework was a forced thing in the tank update thingie, as it was neither requested nor needed. Im glad they are reverting some things but i do wish it was a complete revert.
The reason was how useless the old Zac's Q and Ult were. You can do the same thing with his current ult. Flash behind someone and knock then into your team. But now it's different, because you are able to cast other spells, rather than spamming "w" brainlessly, doing 0 dmg and jumping like an idiot not being able to stop your ultimate.
man of tin (EUNE)
: {{champion:154}} YES YES **YES**
They are gonna make this champion useless again. There is no "YES" here :/
: >Zac - We’re currently testing a mostly reverted version of the Ult with a few improvements to help it have more clear gameplay and understandable impact. {{sticker:sg-kiko}} nice.
And what exactly is "nice"?
Psyfist (NA)
: Did you guys consider any changes to Zac's Q as well? I think the new one is great, but if it worked more like Pyke's Q (having 2 parts) then it might help his ability to lane again just to have some reliable poke.
You have to be insane, if you actually want to lane as Zac.
: WOO! Zac ult revert! I get to bounce again!
Yes. You get to be useless for 4 second again, jumping around like an idiot.
Frigard (EUNE)
: Please, revert Zac's Q as well. I need my blob to shine in the toplane once again.
Shine? His old "Q" was 100% useless
: Post MSI Gameplay Improvements
> Zac - We’re currently testing a mostly reverted version of the Ult with a few improvements to help it have more clear gameplay and understandable impact. I swear if you revert this champion I'm gonna quit league, because this champion is the only fun thing left in this miserable game. I'm a Zac main since season 3, currently diamond 1 and the old version of Zac was completely useless. Here is why: -His old Q barely managed to do 50 dmg and it didn't even slow that much. I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER USING THIS USELESS SPELL IN TEAMFIGHTS. -You could do some nice things with Zac's old version of his ultimate, like flash behind an enemy and knock him into your team, but there was only one problem - YOU WERE JUMPING LIKE AND IDIOT FOR 4 SECONDS, UNABLE TO DO ANYTHING DURING THAT TIME, EXCEPT SPAMMING "W" BRAINLESSLY. On top of that you can do the same thing with Zac's new version of his ultimate, but now you are able to do more than just pressing after casting ult "W". The current version of Zac is better than the old one. Here is why: -you can create so much more pressure on the bottom side of the map after lvl 6 because of the easy double kill, if the enemies have no flashes. You can even dive if you know that the enemy jungler is not near to stop you. -now i want you to compare the efficiency of the new "Q" compared to the old one. With the new one you can stun 2 targets together, knock them up and slow them and have an easy E after that. As i said, with the old one you could barely slow them and the range was so short as well. -With his current ult you can do MASSIVE comebacks. Let's say that u are losing early, but you scale better than the enemy team. And you have Zac. If Zac lands a 3-5 man ult, that's it. In high elo the game would already be over. I don't remember being able to do the same thing with the old one, except to jump 4 times like an idiot in the middle of the teamfight. There is no reason Zac's ult should be reverted. And it's obvious, that the people, who want a revert, can't really play the game :)

DONT REVERT ZAC

Level 82 (EUW)
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