Sir Gusi (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=SiG DxD,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q3KPGBlc,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-05-30T14:00:16.848+0000) > > janna is a support for nabs Janna is easily one of the supports with the best outplay potential {{champion:40}} is easy to learn but hard to master look at pro players that play Janna and you wil be shocked at what she can do
"and other hilarious jokes you can tell youself" I like that book too
nelogis (EUW)
: I present you, the most anti synergy bot lane to ever exist in League History
They can't do anything, like legit they can't do anything Morde can't W Yuumi because she is attached. They have combined a total of 2 ccs one of which is a decaying slow over 1 second and the other a conditional snare on an ult They have absolutely no gap closer to get to anything or relocate Yuumi ult. Their range is mediocore at best. This is so bad..... ima try it in ranked!
: Stop Hating On The Balancing Team.
It would be better if they did nothing so they don't make the game worse than it already is They are damage buffing 7 runes on the PBE
: Why is Tryndamere allowed to exist in his current state?
> and his ultimate lacks visual clarity He starts screaming and his model gets surrounded by flames what else do you want? A huge ass neon sign that says "Tryn ult active" or what?
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5NnEB3QB,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T10:58:41.617+0000) > > Darius has countless melee counters, Illaoi is a joke, you're not allowed to use Riven because she is broken (I knew you would count her), Renekton is a lane bully that falls off a cliff late game and just like Darius he has numerous melee counters > > So no, I don't see how top will be reduced to 4 champs eh.....I'm sort of with you but Darius kinda shits on everyone that is melee. worst case scenario it's an even/skill matchup, best case scenario the opponent can't even touch the minion wave without the threat of getting yanked and fucked. Range/Kiting are Darius' biggest weaknesses and when he takes Ghost/Flash it's very oppressive.
> [{quoted}](name=I memba balance ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5NnEB3QB,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2019-04-10T17:21:23.502+0000) > > eh.....I'm sort of with you but Darius kinda shits on everyone that is melee. worst case scenario it's an even/skill matchup, best case scenario the opponent can't even touch the minion wave without the threat of getting yanked and fucked. Range/Kiting are Darius' biggest weaknesses and when he takes Ghost/Flash it's very oppressive. Jax / Hecarim / Olaf / Kled / Cho / Mao / Wukong / Camille either smash his face to the ground or Darius can't do anything about them Yorick will LITERALLY bury him 6 feet under And those are only the counters Voli / Shen / Malphite / Garen / Urgot / Renekton / Irelia / Tryndamere boil down to a skill matchup These are 17 melee matchups that aren't just a free win for Darius, half of them Darius has to be careful even. Mundo / Fiora / Yasuo / Sylas / Ornn / Aatrox / Poppy / Sion / Rengar / Nautilus / Mordekaiser Those are the champs which get smashed by Darius As you can see, Darius is not even near the unstoppable melee counter everyone thinks he is.
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5NnEB3QB,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-04-10T13:41:37.494+0000) > > Yeah they were so pointless that they were picked every single game. > > Totally useless, completely irrelevant class I agree. They're picked often because they're easy to play and people are uncomfortable with changing the meta. Mage and support bottom is what this thread is complaining about how it stomps teams doing things the traditional way, which means ADCs are not always picked. Indeed, they aren't.
> [{quoted}](name=DrippyBrownHole,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5NnEB3QB,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2019-04-10T13:47:04.349+0000) > > They're picked often because they're easy to play and people are uncomfortable with changing the meta. Mage and support bottom is what this thread is complaining about how it stomps teams doing things the traditional way, which means ADCs are not always picked. Indeed, they aren't. Mage bot worked when they opened up bot. Then they closed bot again and sealed the door shut with flex tape. ADC are always picked 95% of the time and there are the better choice compared to unconventional picks 95% of the time.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Can you turn Karthus ult into an execution damage type?
This is just a nerf? Also the damage should cap at like 33% max HP otherwise the bonus damage at 5% HP is totally useless since you are going to kill them anyway. Also the 100% HP damage shouldn't be astronomically low, like what the hell that thing will deal 130 damage on a target with 0 MR, on a 200 second cooldown. That is unbelievably bad. That is an insult of an ability, it's more efficient to TP down to a lane and use a Q on an enemy then back to lane instead of using ult. Or you could leave it like that but increase his execution damage but then you might as well make the enemy auto-open the shop when he is low and Karthus ults.
: That's because ADCs are kind of pointless. The point to them is "we're good at taking down towers". Everything is good at taking down towers now. What is good at dealing with other types of champions? Or a fed Yasuo? Not ADCs.
> [{quoted}](name=DrippyBrownHole,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5NnEB3QB,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-04-10T13:21:53.338+0000) > > That's because ADCs are kind of pointless. The point to them is "we're good at taking down towers". > > Everything is good at taking down towers now. > > What is good at dealing with other types of champions? Or a fed Yasuo? > > Not ADCs. Yeah they were so pointless that they were picked every single game. Totally useless, completely irrelevant class I agree.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5NnEB3QB,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-10T10:52:14.783+0000) > > Tell me those melees that would crowd out any other one > > Riven doesn't count, she is beyond broken anyway and deserves a solid knee capping Darius, Illaoi, (not sure why I'm not allowed to use Riven, but ok), and Renekton.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5NnEB3QB,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T10:54:14.825+0000) > > Darius, Illaoi, (not sure why I'm not allowed to use Riven, but ok), and Renekton. Darius has countless melee counters, Illaoi is a joke, you're not allowed to use Riven because she is broken (I knew you would count her), Renekton is a lane bully that falls off a cliff late game and just like Darius he has numerous melee counters So no, I don't see how top will be reduced to 4 champs
Jamaree (NA)
: You do know the moment ranged champions left top, there would be like 2 to 4 melee who utterly dominate and push out every other top laner right?
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5NnEB3QB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-10T10:50:05.484+0000) > > You do know the moment ranged champions left top, there would be like 2 to 4 melee who utterly dominate and push out every other top laner right? Tell me those melees that would crowd out any other one Riven doesn't count, she is beyond broken anyway and deserves a solid knee capping
: Why has Vayne not be nerfed yet
gotta make sure the prestige skin sells and that proplay is exciting to watch
Rioter Comments
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Tell one healthy user of Spear? As I said, beside Fiora, all the users of the item got way stronger. You a Zed main by any chance? Or Yi? Wait no, you're a Jax main, otherwise I don't see why you want a broken item to stay in the game. Essence Flare, or whatever it's called now is a broken mechanic, similar to phantom hit and lethality aka the reason why were in this one shot meta. Spear is too big of a power spike on it's users and none bar Fiora have a negative winrate. Fiora atm is at 49.6%, so even if negative it's still a respectable win rate. But hey, let's nerf champs to the point where it's mandatory to build the broken items on them otherwise they are troll picks instead of removing the actual problem. What a wonderful way of balance. All spear users aren't healthy with the item, the item itself is the problem. None of it's users need direct nerfs, ok, maybe Jax does, the item itself is a problem. Nerf or remove it and you solve the problem, you just want to create other problems. Remove the cause of the disease instead of trying to to keep healing the symptoms. As long as the root is still there, new issues will keep coming. But hey, I'm trying to talk actual balance with a mongrel, of course you won't understand that.
> Essence Flare, or whatever it's called now is a broken mechanic, similar to phantom hit and lethality aka the reason why were in this one shot meta. I never said it's something healthy, just that saying "let's remove an item" in hopes to nerf a champion is stupid. Also by the way, no I don't play any of these champs. I actually don't play a champ that uses the item, unless you count Trundle SoS shenanigans in then yeah I guess. > But hey, let's nerf champs to the point where it's mandatory to build the broken items on them otherwise they are troll picks instead of removing the actual problem. What a wonderful way of balance. That is how it's always been but ok You don't balance Katarina around Fleet Footwork you balance her around the keystone she best uses. Same with items and champs. If we did things your way there would be exactly 3 items in the shop. Dorans Blade / Dorans Ring / Dorans Shield League of Dorans > All spear users aren't healthy with the item, the item itself is the problem. None of it's users need direct nerfs, ok, maybe Jax does, the item itself is a problem. Nerf or remove it and you solve the problem, you just want to create other problems. Remove the cause of the disease instead of trying to to keep healing the symptoms. As long as the root is still there, new issues will keep coming. Jax has worse stats (WAAAAY worse stats) than Riven in ---> LOLALYTICS <--- (just making sure you read that part). Data is taken from ---> LOLALYTICS <---. So by your logic if Jax is OP with SoS AND these stats then Riven must be even more bonkers with SoS and better stats! Great that you just said Riven is broken even without SoS! We finally agree with eachother! Also by the way: > Remove the cause of the disease instead of trying to to keep healing the symptoms. As long as the root is still there, new issues will keep coming. Agreed, let's remove Riven form the game. > But hey, I'm trying to talk actual balance with a mongrel, of course you won't understand that. You wanted to include Bronze stats as a staple ground to balance the game
Rylalei (EUNE)
: I ment to write much not such, sry typo. In that image, the low elo starts from plat, high is Diamond and Master and expert are the rest. Where does my site show Riven at 2.6% pick rate? Nowhere. That's the data I called trash. Riven spiked in 8.23, you said she spiked in 9.1, that's another stupid data from you because after 8.23 she never got lower than 12%, so your random pulled data is trash. You never gave a source for those. 2.6%? Like really?
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-05T12:01:55.244+0000) > > Screw ethics, I'm gonna say it straight. > > Are you this fucking stupid? Yeeeees, join the dark side Also this "ethics" train left the station a long time ago buddy > You said Riven spiked from a 2.6% play rate, then from 3.6% and how now it's quadrupled and how her spike was in 9.1. You never brought any source for that play rate. I showed you that the play rate from which she spiked wasn't 2% nor 3% but almost 8%, and it wasn't on 9.1 but in 8.23. I know, by the way my data was from OP.GG I told you this numerous times. Also if you read what I said then you would have realized that I mentioned the same numbers as you are telling me, because they are from your own site... the same one. Unlike you I choose to look at the top pick and winrate however instead of the overall one. Since the original post also concentrates on her top performance. > You then refuse to acknowledge patch 8.23 completely by stating that she went from the near 8% in 8.19 to 14% in 9.6. Yes, that's true but only by half. While yes, she did go from 8% to 14% between those patches, it's not a straight rise nor recent jump as the jump happened months ago. I know, thats why I said "outside of some outliners" You should get better at reading. > Conqueror and Spear are a problem on her, that's true, but Riven herself? I dont fucking care what the stupid ass problem is with her! It's not my job to figure out what the problem is, you could delete her form the game for all I care! So you would rather nerf the entire bruiser keystone then nerf SoS to the fucking ground before touching Riven? Man what a rational and logical thought process. > He went from 0.91% pick rate and a 49% win rate to 8.57% pick rate and 53.12% win rate before he got nerfed. Almost 10 times the play rate and a 4% win rate increase screams problems. There's no walking around that, there's no saying "he was fine" or "why him and not Riven". Oh but if it was Riven we would have waited 4 months to collect data and nerf Conq. By the way, that was with the Conq patch and Yorick used Conq very well, then we nerfed Conq AND Yorick! "BuT Is iT tRuLy RiVeN ThAT iS tHE pROblEm?!?!" We didn't have ANY issues double nerfing Yorick within 1 patch. But we have to wait how the Conq nerfs affect Riven before directly nerfing her? Get the fuck out of here. > So again, yes, she is stronger now than she was in 8.19 and that's all your argument is based on, because you don't want to acknowledge that the real stats contradict the things you claim. > > Want further proof Riven is not the problem but Conqueror and Spear? Yes that she is broken and deserves nerfs, it's exactly my argument and that is exactly what any number in any site about her also says. And no, I don't want further prove what makes Riven broken I want Riven to not be broken. I don't care if Ohmwrecker allows her to gain 80% winrate. Nerf Riven so she is balanced with these items/runes istead of nerfing Items/Runes so they become only usable on her How delusional are Riven mains to ask to nerf an entire Keystone just for them?! How stupid and irrational do you have to be to even say such a thing? > If you remove Spear from Riven's equation, that's a huge nerf to her, no need for direct nerfs. Yes let's remove an enitre Item so Riven becomes balanced what a good way of balancing the game. When she is weak should we remove Zhonyeas to buff her too? Oh no then we can easily buff her right? ;) Oh nerfing her?! HEEELLL NAAAW, need to remove half items from the shop first amirite? > Now, your turn to give an answer: how deep your ass did you have to shove your head to find that 2.6% play rate you gave her? If you knew how to read you would have heard this information 4 times by now. It's from OP.GG. > REQUESTING A MODERATOR FOR SMALL EDITS, I LOST MY TEMPER Awwww, Ol'Jimmothy lost his temper :( Here is a book to calm you down and help your reading comprehension
Rylalei (EUNE)
: So you're intentionally refusing to argument your own words where you said she spiked from a 2.6% play rate? Good to know, now get lost as talking with you further is a waste of digital ink.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-05T12:18:31.344+0000) > > So you're intentionally refusing to argument your own words where you said she spiked from a 2.6% play rate? > > Good to know, now get lost as talking with you further is a waste of digital ink. No instead I used my brain and realized that arguing about data, where 1 side of the party doesn't belief in it's credibility, is useless So I used data from your site instead so you can't bitch about it's credibility. Of course you realized too late that the data you told me to use also suggests that Riven is broken. But since you are too stubborn to accept defeat you are talking about random things, ignoring half the things I say and trying to bring this conversation to an end where it looks like you are in the right well good luck with that I guess because I'm stubborn too.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: I ment to write much not such, sry typo. In that image, the low elo starts from plat, high is Diamond and Master and expert are the rest. Where does my site show Riven at 2.6% pick rate? Nowhere. That's the data I called trash. Riven spiked in 8.23, you said she spiked in 9.1, that's another stupid data from you because after 8.23 she never got lower than 12%, so your random pulled data is trash. You never gave a source for those. 2.6%? Like really?
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-05T12:01:55.244+0000) > > I ment to write much not such, sry typo. In that image, the low elo starts from plat, high is Diamond and Master and expert are the rest. > > > Where does my site show Riven at 2.6% pick rate? Nowhere. > > That's the data I called trash. > > Riven spiked in 8.23, you said she spiked in 9.1, that's another stupid data from you because after 8.23 she never got lower than 12%, so your random pulled data is trash. You never gave a source for those. 2.6%? Like really? Did you even read what I said the last 2 messages? > Hey but at least you gave me a source to recheck thats an improvement! > Anyway lets use your site then whatever floats your boat. > > So from what I have been seeing her winrate and playrate has been growing steadily from 8.19 up to 9.7 outside of some outliners. > > 8.19: 7.71% PR / 51.29% WR > 9.6: 13.17% PR / 54.24% WR > > care to explain how a champion can get their playrate almost doubled and have their winrate increased by a whopping 3%? > Especially for a "high mechanical" champion? > Must be a real coincidence that all the Riven mains got back from the holidays and started playing Riven again huh? > > If you think thats normal just find me another champ that did the same. > Only one I found is Jinx and she is broken herself right now and her playrate didn't have such a drastic jump. this is from lolalytics, in other words, your site. > Either way, on the first one I don't see any playrate so it's completely unusable. > He also was smart with the second one not gonna lie. He started from 8.24 where her playrate already had skyrocketet, if he would have started from 8.21 that line would look way more drastic. > > Anyway I don't know what you are trying to tell me, the filter is on 5 games. Are you telling me a guy playing Riven more than 5 games is considered a main and deserves the 54%-55% winrate? This is the data you told me to google
englich (EUW)
: what your discount shop look like when you own all the skins
Do you have any limited skins? (Outside of Dark Star Cho)
Rylalei (EUNE)
: The low all pick rate is actually from such higher starting point that, but then again, what's the point of talking to you? You cherry pick everything. You post the pick rate from 8.19 and say how it doubled up to now when I made it clear that the spike wasn't over time nor was it recent, the spike was in 8.23 where she spiked to the 13% pick rate and she stayed there afterwards. She never dropped bellow that again by more than a 1 or 2%. What patch was 8.23? The preseason patch where tower plates got added. That's when she jumped both play rate and win rate. So yes, cherry picking, thrash data, numbers from somewhere dark, you got all the points for a troll thread, so I'll leave you be.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-05T08:53:12.858+0000) > > The low all pick rate is actually from such higher starting point that, but then again, what's the point of talking to you? You cherry pick everything. Are you dumb? I took the statistic YOU used and also used the site YOU told me to. YOU are the one that wants to balance a champ that is a problem the higher elo you go around silver, not me, it's you that wants to do that. > What patch was 8.23? The preseason patch where tower plates got added. That's when she jumped both play rate and win rate. To a point where she became busted, thx for agreeing with me > So yes, cherry picking, thrash data, numbers from somewhere dark, you got all the points for a troll thread, so I'll leave you be. I. used. your. site. If you call that "trash data" then you have been using trash data this whole time too.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Skilled play rate: 14% Low elo play rate: 10% If you don't know averages work, you're not even worth my time.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-04T16:32:33.265+0000) > > Skilled play rate: 14% > Low elo play rate: 10% > > If you don't know averages work, you're not even worth my time. Lol you are actually using bronze as a stable ground to balance the game
Player 123 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-04T12:23:40.254+0000) > > Explain to me why Yorick gets nerfed within 1 patch with these numbers or why Singed got HOTFIX nerfed when he reached these numbers > > Maybe then I can understand :) > > Edit: Actually no, these champs got nerfed because they came close to these numbers, they didn't even have them. Because there is a difference when a champ that takes no mechanical skill or knowledge has high numbers and a champ that is hard to master and learn. You can't really compare Riven to SInged,Yorick
> [{quoted}](name=inFamous Zion,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2019-04-04T15:22:17.365+0000) > > Because there is a difference when a champ that takes no mechanical skin or knowledge has high numbers and a champ that is hard to master and learn. You can't really compare Riven to SInged,Yorick Singed is harder to play than Riven but good try I guess https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/X3P0v1Vh-quick-gameplay-thoughts-february-23 (Singed Mastery Curve) Singed has a 15% winrate difference from first timers and players with more than 100 games on him https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1105548667392417792 (Riven Master Curve) Riven has a 10% winrate difference from first timers and players with more than 100 games on her
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Can I have what you're smoking? It looks like it's a super good stuff. First thing, the 11% wr? https://imgur.com/bYzgvtb That's from the last data we got from Riot, as the other guy said, number 5 is Riven. The average is actually 12%, not 11%, my bad, tho still lower from the 15% she had from when Riot gave the first data regarding her a while back. 9.1 Riven had 3.73% play rate? You sure you're not in cohoots with Ivern and smoking Rengar's catnip? After all, Ivern is his main dealer. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/9.1/diamond/plus/champion/Riven/Top/ That shows Riven to have 12.91% total play rate in 9.1. The biggest spike was from 8.22 (9.79%) to 8.23 (13.09%), after which she never came down to lower than 12% on third party sites. When did she even have a 2.6% play rate? Before release maybe? Or you just forgot to put the 1 in front of the 2 and the 3 in your claims? So who's spewing random numbers again with no backup? The 100 recent games was from Riot's statement, google it. The negative win rate was a statement, not that it's on Riven. Any champion played in the vast majority by mains should have a positive win rate, regardless of play rate, because if the mains can't win enough to keep the champion in positive and they are the vast majority of players on the champ, then the champ is weak, and since Riven is played mostly by mains (again, Riot data), it makes sense for her to be in a positive win rate. Heck, Shaco had, according to League of Graphs, at one point a 60% wr with 9% play rate, not sure if calculation bug or what not, but screw that one, when I made a complaint threat he had 56% with 6%, and I was told that "he's weak and only played by mains, so he deserves a high win rate", so why isn't that applied to Riven as well? Because unlike for Shitco, we know from Riot that she's played by mains. Hypocrisy maybe?
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-04T14:42:25.295+0000) > > Can I have what you're smoking? It looks like it's a super good stuff. > > First thing, the 11% wr? > > https://imgur.com/bYzgvtb > > That's from the last data we got from Riot, as the other guy said, number 5 is Riven. The average is actually 12%, not 11%, my bad, tho still lower from the 15% she had from when Riot gave the first data regarding her a while back. Champion 5: Skilled Playrate: 14.8% where do you see 11% or 12% you aren't in all seriousness looking at like silver elo do you? > 9.1 Riven had 3.73% play rate? You sure you're not in cohoots with Ivern and smoking Rengar's catnip? After all, Ivern is his main dealer. > > https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/9.1/diamond/plus/champion/Riven/Top/ > > That shows Riven to have 12.91% total play rate in 9.1. The biggest spike was from 8.22 (9.79%) to 8.23 (13.09%), after which she never came down to lower than 12% on third party sites. When did she even have a 2.6% play rate? Before release maybe? Or you just forgot to put the 1 in front of the 2 and the 3 in your claims? I give you OP.GG data You go to lolalytics and compare OP.GG data with it Actually I'm just going to spam missing ping on you just try to imagine the ping sound ??????? Hey but at least you gave me a source to recheck thats an improvement! Anyway lets use your site then whatever floats your boat. So from what I have been seeing her winrate and playrate has been growing steadily from 8.19 up to 9.7 outside of some outliners. 8.19: 7.71% PR / 51.29% WR 9.6: 13.17% PR / 54.24% WR care to explain how a champion can get their playrate almost doubled and have their winrate increased by a whopping 3%? Especially for a "high mechanical" champion? Must be a real coincidence that all the Riven mains got back from the holidays and started playing Riven again huh? If you think thats normal just find me another champ that did the same. Only one I found is Jinx and she is broken herself right now and her playrate didn't have such a drastic jump. > The 100 recent games was from Riot's statement, google it. You mean this shit? https://imgur.com/zs6RdmM Or this? https://imgur.com/AtSNEPC Either way, on the first one I don't see any playrate so it's completely unusable. He also was smart with the second one not gonna lie. He started from 8.24 where her playrate already had skyrocketet, if he would have started from 8.21 that line would look way more drastic. Anyway I don't know what you are trying to tell me, the filter is on 5 games. Are you telling me a guy playing Riven more than 5 games is considered a main and deserves the 54%-55% winrate?
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Because when champs with a bellow 5% play rate spike to over 12% and have a solid win rate, there's an obvious problem. Riven spiked from around 10% to 15% and around a 51% to 52%, so it's hard to gauge how much stronger she got and why specifically. Now that the win rate isn't dragged down by sleepheads, it's easier to get the reads as once again it's almost exclusively a player base of mains. That's why she didn't got nerfed yet, and even if she will get nerfs, they will be minor or indirect.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-04-04T13:20:37.998+0000) > > Because when champs with a bellow 5% play rate spike to over 12% and have a solid win rate, there's an obvious problem. > > Riven spiked from around 10% to 15% and around a 51% to 52%, so it's hard to gauge how much stronger she got and why specifically. She spiked from 3.73% (9.1) playrate to 13.16% (9.5) https://imgur.com/COjddsv You think that is normal behaviour? Allthewhile her winrate actually went UP > Now that the win rate isn't dragged down by sleepheads, it's easier to get the reads as once again it's almost exclusively a player base of mains. Her playrate is still around 400% higher than a couple of patches ago Your statement makes no sense with these numbers > That's why she didn't got nerfed yet, and even if she will get nerfs, they will be minor or indirect. Oh but we didn't wait until people adapted to the Yorick or Singed pick huh? We also didn't wait how the champs turn out when we nerfed their main runes huh?
Rylalei (EUNE)
: You need a hobby, know that? No-one denies that Riven got better, but not OP as you make her, otherwise I would get to see a good one, which so far, all the Rivens I played against lost lane. Not all lost the game, some got carried, but all lost lane, regardless of the team. Had one in my ranked game, I tried camping for her and still fed, I laned against a good bunch and all lost the lane. Because Riven got stronger, her mains win more, but not every wanna be. Couple that with the official data, not 3rd party sites, and you get why her win rate went up, not by much tho. And considering she's mained by so many (3rd party sites consider only OTPs as mains, but not all mains are OTPs), the wannabes aren't enough to lower her winrate like they do with other popular champs like Lee or Yasuo. When Riot release her data on Twitter, she had a 15% play rate and we got told that the big majority of that are people with over 100 recent games on her. Her play rate lowered, so now there are even fewer wannabes. But look at it this way, 7.5 is half of 15, but half is not majority, so around 9-10 if not more is more like it. If that many are Riven players, they don't just drop her. When 2/3 of a champions player base, regardless how many, are mains, and that champ has a negative winrate, do you think that champ is in a good spot? Obviously not, a champ that even mains have a hard time winning with is in a bad spot, so at the time, her having a 52% win rate with that many mains showed that she's not over powered. Now that her play rate lowered from 15% close to 11%, who do you think gave up on her? Mains or wanna be? Even if some mains left, the vast majority of that 4% player loss are wannabes, and with fewer noobs to lower her win rate, it will rise, simple as that. Her play rate didn't go from a 3-4% to 15%, but from a close to 10%, which was basically being played only by mains as she's a special case, unless Riot releases data to show there are others with that type of situation. If it's still too hard for you to comprehend, sorry to hear that.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-04T13:01:31.374+0000) > > You need a hobby, know that? > > No-one denies that Riven got better, but not OP as you make her, otherwise I would get to see a good one, which so far, all the Rivens I played against lost lane. Not all lost the game, some got carried, but all lost lane, regardless of the team. [removed by moderation - Ulanopo] What you are telling is personal experience, I don't care about that, nobody cares about that. Find me a champ with A BETTER playrate and winrate, if you can't then Riven is literally the most broken champ in the entire game right now, statistically seen. If you can, find one on the same site that I used. > Because Riven got stronger, her mains win more, but not every wanna be. Couple that with the official data, not 3rd party sites, and you get why her win rate went up, not by much tho. And considering she's mained by so many (3rd party sites consider only OTPs as mains, but not all mains are OTPs), the wannabes aren't enough to lower her winrate like they do with other popular champs like Lee or Yasuo. I see a bunch of text with no source behind it. From where do you know that 3rd party websites only consider OTPs as mains. How do you know that Lee and Yasuo have more "wannabe" players. > When Riot release her data on Twitter, she had a 15% play rate and we got told that the big majority of that are people with over 100 recent games on her I can see the 15%, the "majority had 100 recent games" not so much. > Her play rate lowered Where did you get that info from? From the 3rd party sites you just said are innacurate? > When 2/3 of a champions player base, regardless how many, are mains, and that champ has a negative winrate, do you think that champ is in a good spot? Show me the negative winrate > Now that her play rate lowered from 15% close to 11%, who do you think gave up on her? From where did you get the 11% from? From MY data where YOU just said it's unreliable? If I could I would missing ping spam you right now. > Her play rate didn't go from a 3-4% to 15%, but from a close to 10%, which was basically being played only by mains as she's a special case, unless Riot releases data to show there are others with that type of situation. She went from 2.63% PR to 13.16% PR taken from my data which I presented to you Now show me the 10% to 15% You just spew out a bunch of numbers at random > If it's still too hard for you to comprehend, sorry to hear that. You are 100% a part of the balance team don't lie
Player 123 (EUNE)
: Try to understand. Her winrate is borderline average in lower divisions and a bit higher in higher divisions due to OTPs mastering her more effectively. Only OTPs play Riven and nobody else which is why it's hard to say she is broken, if she was played across all divisions without effort, she would be broken, but considering she needs a lot of time to learn and master she isn't. The higher you go, the more you need to invest into mastering her and matchups. Her playrate is high because Riven OTPs spam games with her and play only her. She has the highest player base, because people love to play her, not because she is broken. As a fellow Riven player i play her in all roles including as support. Riven did not receive any buffs to be strong, but she did receive adjustment on Q long ago (year or two ago) which gave her 5AD on Q and she received a ult cdr revert, meaning she had lower cdr on R before rune changes and was a lot longer when new runes got introduced. So they changed back her R cdr. That is all. She can be considered strong because items suit her better than others and not because they Suit only her. With Conq change which gives lifesteal and ad, it's great to go Deathdance for Riven. Riven still has hard counters and always will have. Nothing changed there, but people want to play any champ against her (even weak ones against her) and after they lose they complain how she is OP. No, she just has good and bad matchups. Before Grasp her easy matchup was GP, but after Grasp received a long ago a buff, it became a hard one since Gp could have a free lane to scale. That is how things change with every patch.
> [{quoted}](name=inFamous Zion,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-04-04T11:41:43.179+0000) > > Try to understand. > > Her winrate is borderline average in lower divisions and a bit higher in higher divisions due to OTPs mastering her more effectively. Only OTPs play Riven and nobody else which is why it's hard to say she is broken, if she was played across all divisions without effort, she would be broken, but considering she needs a lot of time to learn and master she isn't. The higher you go, the more you need to invest into mastering her and matchups. > > Her playrate is high because Riven OTPs spam games with her and play only her. She has the highest player base, because people love to play her, not because she is broken. As a fellow Riven player i play her in all roles including as support. > > Riven did not receive any buffs to be strong, but she did receive adjustment on Q long ago (year or two ago) which gave her 5AD on Q and she received a ult cdr revert, meaning she had lower cdr on R before rune changes and was a lot longer when new runes got introduced. So they changed back her R cdr. > That is all. > > She can be considered strong because items suit her better than others and not because they Suit only her. With Conq change which gives lifesteal and ad, it's great to go Deathdance for Riven. > > Riven still has hard counters and always will have. Nothing changed there, but people want to play any champ against her (even weak ones against her) and after they lose they complain how she is OP. No, she just has good and bad matchups. Before Grasp her easy matchup was GP, but after Grasp received a long ago a buff, it became a hard one since Gp could have a free lane to scale. That is how things change with every patch. Explain to me why Yorick gets nerfed within 1 patch with these numbers or why Singed got HOTFIX nerfed when he reached these numbers Maybe then I can understand :) Edit: Actually no, these champs got nerfed because they came close to these numbers, they didn't even have them.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Maybe, just maybe learn to think? Riot gave data that the majority of her playerbase are mains, and that was when she had a 52% wr with 15% pr. Due to that, it's normal for her winrate to rise when her playrate lowers. People who were on the "Riven OP, freelo" train left her and stopped lowering the winrate. Simple as that. I am yet to see a good Riven, so I have a reason to believe Riot's data more than the iron analysts from the boards.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-04T11:05:10.609+0000) > > Maybe, just maybe learn to think? > > Riot gave data that the majority of her playerbase are mains, and that was when she had a 52% wr with 15% pr. > > Due to that, it's normal for her winrate to rise when her playrate lowers. People who were on the "Riven OP, freelo" train left her and stopped lowering the winrate. Simple as that. > > I am yet to see a good Riven, so I have a reason to believe Riot's data more than the iron analysts from the boards. [removed by moderation - Ulanopo] Man it's almost like any number anywhere ever from Riven since the Conq rework suggests that she is borderline broken beyond belief. Her playrate skyrocketet up and her winrate too :o What a shocker! Now I'm not going to spoil the surprise but what do you think does that mean?
Rioter Comments
FireDrizzle (EUNE)
: Well Mundo has been buffed.
Mundo isn't a tank, also his only gap closer or engage is to literally run at you
: Riot Privacy Policy Update (4/3/2019)
Didn't South Park teach you anything about accepting the ToS without reading it first
: Is Rek'Sai overpowered?
I would say the rather recent changes to her R (where you no longer can dodge it) certainly put her over the top. However the nerfs to Conqueror and the nerfs directly targeted at her have brought her down to a reasonable state.
: Well, Yorick is a ton more mechanically complex than Riven obviously, so her being picked a ton by shit loads of people who have success with it by no means indicates anything. Yorick though, is such a complex champion that if he goes above 50% win rate or 5% pick rate, he busted. Then again, Riot holds all the cards on actual data. Data aggragate sites aren't complete in their data for games (they rely on people refreshing their accounts to load the games), so the numbers can be off (which is why sites don't all show the same values).
> [{quoted}](name=Hethalean,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=eVanNFMG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-28T12:59:07.497+0000) > > Well, Yorick is a ton more mechanically complex than Riven obviously, so her being picked a ton by shit loads of people who have success with it by no means indicates anything. Yorick though, is such a complex champion that if he goes above 50% win rate or 5% pick rate, he busted. ????? What You're telling me Yorick needs more mechanical skill than Riven? Or that the playstyle of Yorick is more difficult than Rivens? Maybe the second one is true but for sure as hell not the first one. > Then again, Riot holds all the cards on actual data. Data aggragate sites aren't complete in their data for games (they rely on people refreshing their accounts to load the games), so the numbers can be off (which is why sites don't all show the same values). Since they aren't releasing the data I have to use data from 3rd party websites. Also the reason why I'm asking why Yorick got the nerf hammer while Riven is still running around with a 53% winrate.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=00090001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-21T12:04:59.209+0000) > > You mean cc supports or what? > Those are counterpicks, they have existed since forever. Yes they are counters, however its not a question off "oh this will be harder than most others" rather its "this is not winnable at all.". > If the player playing against Draven is crap he doesn't deserve to win? > You don't balance around incompetent players. Its not a matter of skill, seriously. If Draven´s opponents have the means to punish him for playing around his axes then almost regardless of how good he is then he is useless. If they dont have said tools then they have no way to beat him. > It would be the same as now. You just would know that when Vayne goes invis and doesnt AA you that she is propably charging. Like....you realize that Vayne doesnt have to auto right away and she can easily chill for a second or so and just dash around her opponent giving them no hope of knowing what she is doing, right? Her not attacking right away would not really tell anyone anything in 8 out of 10 cases, the remaining ones are those with the ability to dodge a flash-R cassio ult. > Yeah I'm sure that was the entire reason, also I don't give a rats ass about pro-play. You´re being quite hypocritical here. You´re saying the game should be balanced around high elo but you dont care for pro play? You realize that pro play is the crystallization of high elo yes? ' And yes SKT were literally banning blitz in like 4 outa 5 games against the team using him because they couldnt come up with anything against him, they even said it later that they didnt have any solution on hand for him so they just banned it. > He has enough counterplay, his entire kit resolves around 1 skillshot, just like I proposed with Vayne so if Blitz is too op resolving around a skillshot that can't go through minions then after your logic Vayne wouldn't have any problems too right? You dont play botlane a lot do you? True blitz´s hook is his main deal, but when he has a strong position he can just pop his speedbuff, run down on the enemy AD, knockup, ult, hook and kill them with his ADC, optionally ult first when in range to prevent escapes. How do you outplay a guy running in to auto-knockup you into a long and damaging CC combo?¨ ¨SKT banned it. > Maybe you know.... when his fury is down don't let it stack up again or if he walks towards you, which is something you can see a mile away, prep for the trade and force an extended one? > At the same time why is Tryn doing short trades with 100 fury. Like....if he stacks 100 fury and just sits just behind his melee what is the counterplay then? He can with 1 step go into auto range but people have to enter that range to farm unless ranged. > You are acting like you're playing Mordekaiser, champs have tools to retaliate you know? > And he doesn't have a stun to keep you away from retaliating like Renekton has. You cant win against a 100% certain crit tryndamere who uses E backwards right after in a 1 auto trade, and you cant avoid said trade if he plays well either. > In what universe will a splitpusher let you stack up 4 spheres before engaging on you. The one where they are pushing towards you under tower? Duh. > Still doesn't matter because Steraks will eat most of the ult damage. Steraks is a shield based of your bonus health, doesnt shield for nearly enough unless you build only items that give AD/HP but even then you wont catch up. > And the pickrate of QSS on Tryn is still nowhere to be seen. Because he does not really play against other champions micro wise, he just rotates around endlessly until he can push against something undefended or if determined, push until he has to ult and run away. > Splitpushers aren't meant to be 1v1'd other than by other splitpushers. How stupid would it be if you can send any bob to a splitpusher and stop him that would make them totally useless. And yet Jax exists, and Trundle isnt bad in teamfighting either against strong tanks and olaf can be great as well. > Their strength lies in the fact that they can attract more than 1 guy to them so their team can take objectives. It's their entire purpose of existing. In return they are dogshit in treamfights. Now here is the problem with your philosophy and the rest of all the "come at me 1v1 bro" community. Tell me, how fair is it exactly, that a champ can not be utter shit like say kayle is early, and still scale to the point where you need 2+ people to deal with them? How balanced is it? Its not, its impossible to balance, which is why most "splitpushers" got reworked or nerfed or outright gutted. > Make up your mind are you talking about laning phase or outside of it. Both are important because Tryndameres is balanced around his lane and his splitpush. > In laning phase you don't need to kite him at all unless you are a ranged top. Except you do, because how else do you deal with his 100% certain crit auto trades that you cant deal with unless playing like...Renekton or Darius? > Melees can just fight him. Not everything has to run away if he dashes into a Trundle he will get his arse split in 2. It´d be boosted as hell to just dash ontop right away, rather just chill by your melee minions, max out fury, setup a 100% certain crit then go to trade, either a extended one or E back denying retaliation. > Also Tryn doesn't get crit chance in lane, the new build at least doesn't. So he is stuck with 35% for a while. As i mentioned as long as you have 20% at least its extremely easy to give yourself 100% crit chance for at least 1 auto, because crit chance is not actually RNG as many think, rather there is a funny math formula behind it that happens to have "bad luck protection" built in, you abuse that. > Yorick is also useless in Teamfights, is he also toxic? Pretty sure he was just gutted? > A) He is a late game monster, if he can't kill squishies in 2-3 hits by then he is just a worse Vayne in about every aspect imaginable. > B) Squishies shouldn't be getting into melee range with him in the first place, especially if he already got stunned. And here is the second problem, why is a supposed lategame monster able to fight others in lane? Should he not be just barely better than kayle in lane? But he is much better than her. > I. Don't. Care. About. The. Strength. Of. The. Champions > I don't give a shit about it. I give 0 fucks, absolutely no interest whatsoever. > You could give Vayne -100 base AD so she actually heals her enemies, I still don't care about it. > I want mechanical counterplay on ADCs on the same level as Irelia / Aatrox / Yorick. If that is not achieved nobody can tell me Tryn or Yi are toxic designs. There can never be mechanical counterplay to marksmen as long as tanks&assassins exist, nor can tanks be removed as long as marksmen exist. All the more insane marksmen changes in recent years were aimed at dealing with tanks, {{item:3153}} buffs, armor pen changes and buffs, onhit being changed and buffed, heck even lifesteal was made more accessible for them to deal with {{item:3075}} . But even so they get their power limited for it, because the more toxic/powerful a design is the less the powerbudget it has, Irelia is a great case of this as her ability to dash around proved so powerful she ate like 10 consecutive nerfs to compensate > Because they have the same mechanical counterplay as ADCs compared to the entire ADC roster. Mechanical counterplay is the same yes, you kill them, however you blatantly ignore the difference in difficulty in doing so and that is why you are destined to be ignored by the vast majority for all time as you preach this. ¨ A Vayne will die instantly if a Syndra so much as nudges her with a Q-E with her team around, a Yi? Will dodge the stun with either his Q or his movespeed then literally 3 shot the syndra before anyone can even react with Q-AA-AA unless she has zhonya, then he kills anyone else around unless a Rammus sits on him stopping him from ever moving. This applies to your sentence about kai´sa vs mundo as well, Kai´sa dies in 3 hits from any caster/ability user with damage, Mundo might die in 20 or 30 or not at all if the enemy cant deal it quickly enough given that he regens shittons of health the entire time. Furthermore, Kai´sa to apply max damage needs to basically get in just outside melee range, and as a marksman, to function properly. If she isnt risk/reward then i dont know what, she is basically what Vayne should have been.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=000900010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-21T14:58:26.207+0000) > > Its not a matter of skill, seriously. > > If Draven´s opponents have the means to punish him for playing around his axes then almost regardless of how good he is then he is useless. > > If they dont have said tools then they have no way to beat him. Draven is perfectly viable in high elo. The supports just counter him, they don't make him unplayable. > Like....you realize that Vayne doesnt have to auto right away and she can easily chill for a second or so and just dash around her opponent giving them no hope of knowing what she is doing, right? > > Her not attacking right away would not really tell anyone anything in 8 out of 10 cases, the remaining ones are those with the ability to dodge a flash-R cassio ult. Yeah I know? What is so bad about mind games? Also this only works insider her R, outside of it not so much. You can also only click the ability without charging, it would be just way less efficient. Would maybe knock someone back by 50 or 100 units. > You´re being quite hypocritical here. > > You´re saying the game should be balanced around high elo but you dont care for pro play? You realize that pro play is the crystallization of high elo yes? No, Pro play isn't high elo If Riot would finally give us actual good communication then we could MAYBE balance around pro play but until then we should balance around high elo SoloQ. > How do you outplay a guy running in to auto-knockup you into a long and damaging CC combo?¨ I would suggest using the keyboard You can also just stand still and do nothing like in your scenario, in that case however Thresh / Alistar will murder your ass too. Blitz isn't problematic or OP nor does he lack counterplay. Also if you have an enchanter as a support then it would be the case that Blitz counters those. > Like....if he stacks 100 fury and just sits just behind his melee what is the counterplay then? He can with 1 step go into auto range but people have to enter that range to farm unless ranged. Ranged will just poke him out. Most melees can also just fight him. > You cant win against a 100% certain crit tryndamere His passive gives him 35% crit chance early on not 100% And no, he doesn't buy crit items early on. > As i mentioned as long as you have 20% at least its extremely easy to give yourself 100% crit chance for at least 1 auto, because crit chance is not actually RNG as many think, rather there is a funny math formula behind it that happens to have "bad luck protection" built in, you abuse that. About the most stupid thing I have heard in a long while. > And yet Jax exists, and Trundle isnt bad in teamfighting either against strong tanks and olaf can be great as well. Yeah they "can" be great, generally seen they aren't great. Crit Fiddlesticks can also be great too. > Tell me, how fair is it exactly, that a champ can not be utter shit like say kayle is early, and still scale to the point where you need 2+ people to deal with them? How balanced is it? > > Its not, its impossible to balance, which is why most "splitpushers" got reworked or nerfed or outright gutted. Does Kayle suck in teamfights? No she doesn't. Can a splitpusher 2 v 1 when behind? No he can't Does a splitpusher need to win the laning phase to be somewhat relevant in the game? Yes because the enemy champ prop scales better into teamfights than him It's your decision to constantly try to 1 v 1 the splitpusher that is wrong. Also I don't remember a splitpusher getting reworked into a non-splitpusher. I guess Aatrox is something but he is a failure of a design anyway. And Irelia lost some of her split-pushing strength and got stronger in teamfights. That is about it. > Both are important because Tryndameres is balanced around his lane and his splitpush. Yeah but make up your mind about THIS conversation because you can't talk about 2 things in the same sentence. > Except you do, because how else do you deal with his 100% certain crit auto trades that you cant deal with unless playing like...Renekton or Darius? They aren't 100% and I don't care what you tell me about a pity timer you will never make it 100% ever. Almost any bruiser or juggernaut in the game can deal with that. > Pretty sure he was just gutted? With gutted you mean nerfed yeah? He is still a Tier 2 champ with a 50% winrate what else do you want? The rework on his R made him busted. > And here is the second problem, why is a supposed lategame monster able to fight others in lane? Should he not be just barely better than kayle in lane? But he is much better than her. What is your thing with Kayle, fucking forget Kayle they are not the same champ type. Jax can also fight ppl in lane so can Fiora, both scale like monsters. Just because you're scaling doesn't mean you have to be a caster minion in laning phase, not in season 9 at least. > There can never be mechanical counterplay to marksmen as long as tanks&assassins exist, nor can tanks be removed as long as marksmen exist. Wrong, when mages became popular bot, assassins were still playable. That means you can put something with mechanical counterplay in the bot position without destroying the whole game. If it is AD or AP who gives a shit. You can also put a bunch of Gangplanks in the bot lane. Pure Tanks suck massive cock all around the board right now, has nothing to do with marksmen. > A Vayne will die instantly if a Syndra so much as nudges her with a Q-E with her team around, a Yi? Will dodge the stun with either his Q or his movespeed What has this to do with Syndra again I already told you that she isn't suppose to fight a splitpusher like Yi. You can go suicide into a splitpusher as much as you want but keep the champ away from this discussion. Also that is why you could give defense tools to ADCs if they actually had counterplay outside of killing them. So Vayne COULD survive some Syndra spells. > she ate like 10 consecutive nerfs to compensate She didn't get nerfed because of that but because she had about as much counterplay as an ADC and we can't have that on a melee now can we? :) > Mechanical counterplay is the same yes, you kill them, however you blatantly ignore the difference in difficulty in doing so and that is why you are destined to be ignored by the vast majority for all time as you preach this. You stun Yi and he dies in about 0.5 seconds in a teamfight, or he kills your entire team in about 4 seconds if you fail to do so, pretty much Vayne or Kog. Yi doesn't have tankiness while stunned if he gets stunned he is as vulnerable as an ADC. Tryndamere has other strengths and weaknesses. Like being dogshit in teamfights. > If she isnt risk/reward then i dont know what, she is basically what Vayne should have been. Her being risk/reward has nothing to do with anything we discussed but thx for the info I guess. So I guess the next ADC should be a guy with a 3 hit passive, an attack speed steroid on his Q an attack damage steroid on his W a movementspeed steroid on his E and a instant blink with an on-hit damage steroid on R. But don't worry it's risk/reward! Wow what a design! Of course we need to make it all instant otherwise ADC players will get mad that they have to work for the damage they are dishing out.
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=000900010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-21T07:48:48.924+0000) > > Yes either he is good with them so he gets rewarded or he is shit with them and is useless, just like Yasuo will be totally useless when he can't hit a single Q. Its not a matter of skill at all, the problem is, is it possible to do so at all? In many matchups the answer is no meaning Draven can often largely be entirely useless, a fullblown troll pick. > It's called not having a 100% realible damage output. And this is why he can never be generally good but is instead extremely oppressive when he does work. > Vayne will do that to you too, actually she will do that even if you have 10K Armor :) Admittedly i have never been a fan of max health true damage. > You know where Draven will walk towards you can deny his damage, once the axes are gone he is far less dangerous. There is NOTHING you can do about Trist or Vayne, how hard is it to understand this concept of counterplay. Its you who fail to understand. The problem with Draven is that if his opponents are competent and have the tools then he is straight shit, utter damn shit. But if they dont? He is more oppressive than season 3 teemo/renekton in lane. > Didn't say you need to charge for 3 secs like a Xerath Q. Around 1 or 1.5 seconds for max distance, you just need to know when it is coming out as an enemy so you can either cc buffer it or avoid it. > Also she can charge it in stealth. Charging in stealth just removes the counterplay given that her stealth lasts 1 second. And a marksman cant afford such a charging time when the primary opponents consist of instant damage dealers, standing still even for a second is suicidal. > A) She is suppose to be weak in lane Difference between being weak and unable to lane at all, Vayne is entirely built around her current W and literally cant function without it, to change this she needs a rework, but she is deemed a niche pick thus left alone. > B) It's called counterplay, just like Blitz forces you to be behind your minions to avoid him. LOL. You are aware that SKT literally started banning blitz against some team using him under a worlds run because he doesnt actually have any counterplay right? > Just look how "useless" she is going to be when you add 1 SKILLSHOT. A SINGLE ONE. > This is how low the ADC standard is, 1 skillshot is already too much. Because they werent made for it, at least not the old ones which vayne is one of. > What melee can kite another melee Fiora, Trundle, Darius, jax, renekton are all really good at it, irelia as well to a lesser degree. > "Play safer until he regains it" > That is exactly a thing you can use to gain an advantage How exactly? If i try to fight him when he backs up to his minions i´ll just take too much damage from them and lose the trade anyway, but if he stacks fury he can walk into mine, hit me with a crit, E back and he does more than he takes. Fair trading pattern 101, which on the other hand is much like renektons style of E-W-Q-E back but at least he doesnt scale hard. > Yorick will run you over He cant run anyone down without landing his E or W. > Nasus will run you over With merc threads and 40% cdr he cant catch you, Syndra´s range is way too good for it. > Olaf will LITERALLY run you over Fair enough. > Trundle will run you over Same deal as nasus. > Fiora will run you over You can literally evaporate Fiora with her standard build as long as you dont ult her W, which is easy seeing as she usually either uses it to block your stun or trying to stop your kiting. > Syndra isn't a champ that is suppose to fuck with splitpushers. A splitpusher doesn't care about 2k damage, not that Syndra ult ever deals that much damage anyway. With 700 AP and a 7 sphere ult she does 2100 with her ult, even if reduced by say 30% thats still just short of 1600 damage, not counting her other abilities at all or keystone. > No Tryn ever goes that elixier Most Tryns never even try to teamfight which most mages do so they dont have to bother, but nice of you to notice. > Tryn buying Merchs or QSS is shitty for him, he sacrifices power to stick to targets. Dropping a tiny portion of attackspeed (usually i think?) to become that much harder to peel off is usually a good trade when the enemy is using long but basic CC, not that many toplaners or junglers actually have that though so he doesnt need it given that he just forces 1v2´s in the toplane all game. > By the way if you kite him he can't auto which means he can't crit which means he doesn't get his dash CD lowered. > Have you ever played Tryndamere? I have, any my conclusion is that as long as the enemy team cant beat you 1v1 then you are basically overpowered. And how exactly do you kite someone walking up with a 100% certain crit to auto you as you farm? Give up CS? Do that enough and he wins lane anyway. And yes there is a way to easily give yourself 100% crit chance as long as you have like 20% of it, and trynd with full fury has 30% which makes it really easy to do on him. > Almost like they have to be blown up since they are beyond toxic design :) Almost like Tryndamere has to be useless in teamfights because he is beyond toxic in design :) > By the way Kaisa has a shield for half her entire HP bar and Xayah can become untargetable. Oh and Kai´sas shield at max rank is 125+200%AD+75% AP. Which adds up to like ...375-500 with full build depending on build, which at it´s usually about a quarter of her health, but nice hyperbole anyway. Xayah has to become untargetable because short range doesnt work for a marksman unless they have a self defence tool, and as a funny fact, she became almost entirely useless the moment she got item nerfs to CDR making that ult less usable. > Sivir has a spellshield, Ezreal has a cc-buffering blink. Sivir has short range, Ez has some of the worst DPS any marksman has ever had. > Yep you never played Tryndamere Later on when he literally kills anyone squishy in 2-3 hits how is my statement not correct? > Then give the ADCs more survival and also give them more restrictions I don't care, just give me SOMETHING to work with when fighting them. You arent supposed to do anything like teamfighting when Tryndamere, heck you arent even supposed to leave the sidelanes, Tryndamee is literally one of the first champs made and his design is just as toxic and skewed as Vayne. The only reason she is good now is because she was overbuffed and is overtuned, that is literally all there is to it but Riot are busy selling skins for her so it wont stop for a while. Meanwhile you can take your Tryndamere and stick to your 1v1 and PVE&PVtower why dont you, asking to be able to teamfight on him is like asking for {{champion:10}} to get a heap of early game buffs for nothing.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=0009000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-21T09:30:23.327+0000) > > Its not a matter of skill at all, the problem is, is it possible to do so at all? In many matchups the answer is no meaning Draven can often largely be entirely useless, a fullblown troll pick. You mean cc supports or what? Those are counterpicks, they have existed since forever. > Its you who fail to understand. > > The problem with Draven is that if his opponents are competent and have the tools then he is straight shit, utter damn shit. > > But if they dont? He is more oppressive than season 3 teemo/renekton in lane. If the player playing against Draven is crap he doesn't deserve to win? You don't balance around incompetent players. If Draven is crap and can't juggle axes he doesn't deserve to win either. It's how this game works. You're acting like Draven is unplayable in high elo or something. > Charging in stealth just removes the counterplay given that her stealth lasts 1 second. > > And a marksman cant afford such a charging time when the primary opponents consist of instant damage dealers, standing still even for a second is suicidal. It would be the same as now. You just would know that when Vayne goes invis and doesnt AA you that she is propably charging. She wouldn't be standing still, you can charge stuff while walking too you know. > niche pick thus left alone. 25% pickrate really nice niche pick. Good thing tanks are in the meta so it justifies her 25% pickrate... oh wait... Imagine Rammus being picked 25% of the time into an AP heavy meta. That is your definition of a niche pick right there? > because he doesnt actually have any counterplay right? Yeah I'm sure that was the entire reason, also I don't give a rats ass about pro-play. He has enough counterplay, his entire kit resolves around 1 skillshot, just like I proposed with Vayne so if Blitz is too op resolving around a skillshot that can't go through minions then after your logic Vayne wouldn't have any problems too right? > How exactly? If i try to fight him when he backs up to his minions i´ll just take too much damage from them and lose the trade anyway, but if he stacks fury he can walk into mine, hit me with a crit, E back and he does more than he takes. > > Fair trading pattern 101, which on the other hand is much like renektons style of E-W-Q-E back but at least he doesnt scale hard. Maybe you know.... when his fury is down don't let it stack up again or if he walks towards you, which is something you can see a mile away, prep for the trade and force an extended one? At the same time why is Tryn doing short trades with 100 fury. You are acting like you're playing Mordekaiser, champs have tools to retaliate you know? And he doesn't have a stun to keep you away from retaliating like Renekton has. > With 700 AP and a 7 sphere ult she does 2100 with her ult, even if reduced by say 30% thats still just short of 1600 damage, not counting her other abilities at all or keystone. In what universe will a splitpusher let you stack up 4 spheres before engaging on you. Still doesn't matter because Steraks will eat most of the ult damage. > Most Tryns never even try to teamfight which most mages do so they dont have to bother, but nice of you to notice. Yes nice of me to notice that Tryn is so easily kiteable that he doesn't even bother with teamfighting And the pickrate of QSS on Tryn is still nowhere to be seen. > I have, any my conclusion is that as long as the enemy team cant beat you 1v1 then you are basically overpowered. Splitpushers aren't meant to be 1v1'd other than by other splitpushers. How stupid would it be if you can send any bob to a splitpusher and stop him that would make them totally useless. Their strength lies in the fact that they can attract more than 1 guy to them so their team can take objectives. It's their entire purpose of existing. In return they are dogshit in treamfights. > And how exactly do you kite someone walking up with a 100% certain crit to auto you as you farm? Give up CS? Do that enough and he wins lane anyway. > > And yes there is a way to easily give yourself 100% crit chance as long as you have like 20% of it, and trynd with full fury has 30% which makes it really easy to do on him. Make up your mind are you talking about laning phase or outside of it. In laning phase you don't need to kite him at all unless you are a ranged top. Melees can just fight him. Not everything has to run away if he dashes into a Trundle he will get his arse split in 2. Also Tryn doesn't get crit chance in lane, the new build at least doesn't. So he is stuck with 35% for a while. > Almost like Tryndamere has to be useless in teamfights Yorick is also useless in Teamfights, is he also toxic? > Later on when he literally kills anyone squishy in 2-3 hits how is my statement not correct? A) He is a late game monster, if he can't kill squishies in 2-3 hits by then he is just a worse Vayne in about every aspect imaginable. B) Squishies shouldn't be getting into melee range with him in the first place, especially if he already got stunned. > You arent supposed to do anything like teamfighting when Tryndamere, heck you arent even supposed to leave the sidelanes, Tryndamee is literally one of the first champs made and his design is just as toxic and skewed as Vayne. > > The only reason she is good now is because she was overbuffed and is overtuned, that is literally all there is to it but Riot are busy selling skins for her so it wont stop for a while. > > Meanwhile you can take your Tryndamere and stick to your 1v1 and PVE&PVtower why dont you, asking to be able to teamfight on him is like asking for to get a heap of early game buffs for nothing. I. Don't. Care. About. The. Strength. Of. The. Champions I don't give a shit about it. I give 0 fucks, absolutely no interest whatsoever. You could give Vayne -100 base AD so she actually heals her enemies, I still don't care about it. I want mechanical counterplay on ADCs on the same level as Irelia / Aatrox / Yorick. If that is not achieved nobody can tell me Tryn or Yi are toxic designs. Because they have the same mechanical counterplay as ADCs compared to the entire ADC roster. Kai'sa has the same mechanical counterplay as Dr.Mundo.
: is Darius op
In low elo where nobody has any god damn idea what do to against a Darius he propably is yeah In high elo he is garbage right now
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=0009000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T11:51:40.122+0000) > > Why is everyone thinking I want to see nerfs I don't care if they reduce every ADC's base AD to 0 it doesn't fix the problem. Them reducing the amount of crit chance you get or reducing the amount of damage doesn't fix anything. Because that is the only way to limit marksmen as they are now. > Draven is a good example of an ADC where you have options to dodge his damage, by denying him his axes. Draven is seriously a terrible example, exactly because of his axes. Either he can keep juggling those and he is OP as bleeding hell or he is utterly useless. > --> You can actively do something about Draven other than straight up killing him <-- yeah you can take 2 hits from him and die, thats what happens when you dont have a heap of armor. > That is why Draven likes to go a more tanky route with his build (BT or DD for example) because his damage ISN'T 100% reliable. Dude you have clearly never played him at all, nor have you played botlane much. Draven builds lifesteal because it lets him trade aggressively as hell, the AD from it fuels all his autos and his abilties but mainly his Q, which further fuels the lifesteal making him just stomp right over his enemies. Poke him? He heals it. Trade with him? He heals back up and goes in again right away, and he does more damage per auto with his higher AD+Q. Not fight him? He takes lane dominance and will deny you farm. There is no truly well balanced marksman that doesnt cause endless frustations for someone, none. > You can add this to other ADCs, like make Vaynes silver bolts a skill shot that doesn't go through minions, the guy hit by the skillshot takes true damage into his face. Turn a 3 hit passive into a skillshot? Right. > You can make the displacement a charging ability where the longer she charges the further the enemy is knocked back. Would be terribly useless given how the main power of this ability is the wall stun which needs instant cast to work well. > You can make it so her Q cd only gets reduced by the R when she hits a silver bolt marked unit Would make her terribly weak in lane to the point where she´d be unable to exist, enemy AD would just sit behind minions and bone her to no end. > Again you have ways to work around Tryndamere apart form "blowing him up lmao". He is highly kiteable, you can dodge his only cc ability, his mobility is heavily reduced when he can't stick onto a target, when he uses his Q he loses a lot of DPS (especially early game) so you know when you can punish him. Highly kitable? His W and E makes it so no melee can easily run from him. Yes he is indeed weaker with no fury, but that just means he´ll play safer for a while until he regains it. > Vayne or Trist have none of that, everything point and click, non-kiteable, self buffs are instant, cc can't be dodged, nothing. Vayne and Trist die if you nuke them, trynda doesnt. > "but they need to be reliable since they get blown up!" > And we are back at the start of this discussion > Any god damn splitpusher will do that to Syndra, Syndra isn't fit to fight splitpushers. It's like saying Janna can't 1 v 1 Trundle so Trundle is unhealthy, what kind of logic is that. Syndra spanks trundle if she builds for it though, beats Fiora as well. Very few can do anything about a good Syndra lategame because her ult legit does 2000 damage when charged. Tryndamere? Cant be killed, can dive in under any tower giving no fks at all and kill his opponent very quickly and still get out. > Also I don't get how a Tryn should just "bulldoze through your stun" when you already blocked his E. Short cooldown dash that gets lowered when he crits on anything, so he can just run forward, eat the stun then run down his enemy, if really bogged down he can run stuff like {{item:3139}} or {{item:3111}} {{item:2138}} as well. > Yeah if you missplay shit hits the fan, that has nothing to do with Tryndamere, any champ will punish the enemy for missplays. Difference is, marksman eats a stun, they die, instantly, not takebacks. Tryndamere? Eats a stun then turns to fight and kills both his attackers. Now this is naturally not always true, but because its generally true the limitations imposed are different. Tryndamere is reliably difficult to kill, that is why he must have more restrictions imposed on him compared to a kog/vayne/tristana who have their survival tied to abilities that might just be outright ignored. Tryndamere is balanced around his 1v1 and 1v2 aspects, Vayne and Tristana are balanced around 5v5´s and their laning.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=00090001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T15:37:25.190+0000) > > Either he can keep juggling those and he is OP as bleeding hell or he is utterly useless. Yes either he is good with them so he gets rewarded or he is shit with them and is useless, just like Yasuo will be totally useless when he can't hit a single Q. It's called not having a 100% realible damage output. > yeah you can take 2 hits from him and die, thats what happens when you dont have a heap of armor. Vayne will do that to you too, actually she will do that even if you have 10K Armor :) You know where Draven will walk towards you can deny his damage, once the axes are gone he is far less dangerous. There is NOTHING you can do about Trist or Vayne, how hard is it to understand this concept of counterplay. > Turn a 3 hit passive into a skillshot? Right. Yeah almost like she needs a rework or something It still does the same crap, just now enemies can dodge it and we can't have that on an ADC now can we? Otherwise how would they be able to do their lcs big pallyz. > Would be terribly useless given how the main power of this ability is the wall stun which needs instant cast to work well. Didn't say you need to charge for 3 secs like a Xerath Q. Around 1 or 1.5 seconds for max distance, you just need to know when it is coming out as an enemy so you can either cc buffer it or avoid it. Also she can charge it in stealth. > Would make her terribly weak in lane to the point where she´d be unable to exist, enemy AD would just sit behind minions and bone her to no end. A) She is suppose to be weak in lane B) It's called counterplay, just like Blitz forces you to be behind your minions to avoid him. Just look how "useless" she is going to be when you add 1 SKILLSHOT. A SINGLE ONE. This is how low the ADC standard is, 1 skillshot is already too much. > Highly kitable? His W and E makes it so no melee can easily run from him. > > Yes he is indeed weaker with no fury, but that just means he´ll play safer for a while until he regains it. ?????????????? What melee can kite another melee "Play safer until he regains it" That is exactly a thing you can use to gain an advantage > Vayne and Trist die if you nuke them, trynda doesnt. And we are back at the start of this discussion > Syndra spanks trundle if she builds for it though, beats Fiora as well. > > Very few can do anything about a good Syndra lategame because her ult legit does 2000 damage when charged. > > Tryndamere? Cant be killed, can dive in under any tower giving no fks at all and kill his opponent very quickly and still get out. Yorick will run you over Nasus will run you over Olaf will LITERALLY run you over Trundle will run you over Fiora will run you over etc, etc. Syndra isn't a champ that is suppose to fuck with splitpushers. A splitpusher doesn't care about 2k damage, not that Syndra ult ever deals that much damage anyway. Steraks will eat 70% of that damage up and most of them run Spirit which will reduce the damage by another 20-30% or so. > Short cooldown dash that gets lowered when he crits on anything, so he can just run forward, eat the stun then run down his enemy, if really bogged down he can run stuff like or as well. No Tryn ever goes that elixier Tryn buying Merchs or QSS is shitty for him, he sacrifices power to stick to targets. Anyway the pickrate of this item on Tryn is so low that it is not worth even mentioning. By the way if you kite him he can't auto which means he can't crit which means he doesn't get his dash CD lowered. Have you ever played Tryndamere? > Difference is, marksman eats a stun, they die, instantly, not takebacks. Almost like they have to be blown up since they are beyond toxic design :) By the way Kaisa has a shield for half her entire HP bar and Xayah can become untargetable. Sivir has a spellshield, Ezreal has a cc-buffering blink. > Tryndamere? Eats a stun then turns to fight and kills both his attackers. Yep you never played Tryndamere > Tryndamere is reliably difficult to kill, that is why he must have more restrictions imposed on him compared to a kog/vayne/tristana who have their survival tied to abilities that might just be outright ignored. Then give the ADCs more survival and also give them more restrictions I don't care, just give me SOMETHING to work with when fighting them.
: Well what do we have here. lets just get started. No one is going to hug a wall because of Fiora vitals unless she ults. otherwise, you are wasting farm Tryndamere is considered over powered because of Invincibility(through cc as well) highly damaging crit build and high sustain crit build. Tryndamere can actually one shot an adc if he truly wanted to. his slow is hard to predict because it is litteraly a click CC. NOT A POINT AND CLICK. JUST CLICK and you are slowed and lose damage. not many people are going to turn at the very nano second he presses that button. Aatrox is dogshit ur right. bring back old trox. Irelia has been busted from her rework from the get go. every nerf or buff she was still busted in some way. her kit is too strong. Darius is not exactly supposed to be the engage and run in to die. if anything he is the janitor god. also his hook is basically a gap closer. because he is litteraly closing the gap with your body. only one thing needs to be said about nasus. Full tank build q stacks. as for ADC's they are supposed to obliterate people because they are the ATTACK DAMAGE **_CARRIES_** . not saying that some of them are not over tweaked but for the most part they are supposed to be that strong. but if you outplay by perhaps going to a bush. control warding so they cant see. bam you just did your first outplay. Thank you
> [{quoted}](name=MaskedMadness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2019-03-01T17:39:40.308+0000) > > Well what do we have here. lets just get started. No one is going to hug a wall because of Fiora vitals unless she ults. otherwise, you are wasting farm > > Tryndamere is considered over powered because of Invincibility(through cc as well) highly damaging crit build and high sustain crit build. Tryndamere can actually one shot an adc if he truly wanted to. his slow is hard to predict because it is litteraly a click CC. NOT A POINT AND CLICK. JUST CLICK and you are slowed and lose damage. not many people are going to turn at the very nano second he presses that button. > > Aatrox is dogshit ur right. bring back old trox. > > Irelia has been busted from her rework from the get go. every nerf or buff she was still busted in some way. her kit is too strong. > > Darius is not exactly supposed to be the engage and run in to die. if anything he is the janitor god. also his hook is basically a gap closer. because he is litteraly closing the gap with your body. > > only one thing needs to be said about nasus. Full tank build q stacks. > > as for ADC's they are supposed to obliterate people because they are the ATTACK DAMAGE **_CARRIES_** . not saying that some of them are not over tweaked but for the most part they are supposed to be that strong. but if you outplay by perhaps going to a bush. control warding so they cant see. bam you just did your first outplay. > > Thank you Are you going to just walk up to Fiora completely freely exacly into the direction the vital is facing? Well if you do then you don't know how to play against her I guess. > Tryndamere is considered over powered because of Invincibility(through cc as well) highly damaging crit build and high sustain crit build. Tryndamere can actually one shot an adc if he truly wanted to. his slow is hard to predict because it is litteraly a click CC. NOT A POINT AND CLICK. JUST CLICK and you are slowed and lose damage. not many people are going to turn at the very nano second he presses that button. First off, he is everything but over powered "Higly damaging crit build and sustain crit" that is literally any crit build, it's the reason you go crit. Anyone can one shot an ADC if they truly wanted to It's actually easy to predict because everyone knows when he needs to slow you to get to you. If you don't know when he needs to slow you then that is your problem. > Aatrox is dogshit ur right. bring back old trox. > > Irelia has been busted from her rework from the get go. every nerf or buff she was still busted in some way. her kit is too strong. > > Darius is not exactly supposed to be the engage and run in to die. if anything he is the janitor god. also his hook is basically a gap closer. because he is litteraly closing the gap with your body. A) I never said anything about how strong they are nor does it matter one bit for what I'm trying to get across. B) You don't know what a gap closer is. If he isn't in hook range he won't ever get in hook range because he doesn't have a gap closer. > as for ADC's they are supposed to obliterate people because they are the ATTACK DAMAGE CARRIES This is about the dumbest thing I have read in a long while Also by the way they are Marksmen, Tryndamere/Master Yi are also ADCs, so after your logic they are completely fine and healthy :) > but if you outplay by perhaps going to a bush. control warding so they cant see. bam you just did your first outplay. Imagine suggesting to run into a bush as counterplay while not physically cringing at yourself
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2019-02-28T17:52:36.262+0000) > > - ADCs have low mechanical counterplay (toxic design) so we need to make it so they blow up instantly > - They need high reliable damage since they blow up instantly > How about we just.... break the cycle? > You can make ranged have limitation just like melees and give them less reliable damage but more defenses to get more time and pull the damage off. > It is how a melee carry works How the heck do you limit a ranged auto attack carry? Their worth is entirely decided by the damage they deal as there are requirements for it. And yes the ability to survive is calculated, doesnt matter how much damage they bring if they die instantly so people will pick the options with self peel if the ones with more damage cant survive long enough to use it. However if the damage gets lowered too much they simply get replaced by mages, riot really stopped a step or two short of that with the last round of nerfs and changes to IE and phantom dancer and the rest of the crit items. The revert saw that True damage was entirely lost, crit damage was comparatively lowered, attackspeed was lowered and crit chance on 3 items was reduced from 100 to 75%. Tons of damage was lost no matter which perspective one uses. > Edit: Also I compared the newly released melee carries to the newly released ranged carries, Tryndamere is in there to show the double standard, Trinstana / Vayne have the same amount of mechanical counterplay as Tryn but Tryn gets flamed way more for no god damn reason. Tristana and Vayne overall have more counterplay than Tryndamere does in their preferred environments. Tristana and Vayne are marksmen who like to teamfight, Tryndamere is a skirmisher that wants to splitpush,you can pretty much instantly kill both Tristana and Vayne with a number of abilities or combo´s which are often easily available in a 2v2 lane or a teamfight which is where you´ll mainly see them. Sure people hate Vayne´s guts when she isnt dead, i do, but that doesnt excuse Tryndamere either. Tryndamere with ult and some items has 0 counterplay short of stunning him until his ult stops, nothing exists at all that is generally doable, this is why people absolutely loathe playing against him, that and like Yasou he is the type that you gotta kill fast but due to various things many cant which also draws aggro. Like sure at some point in a game i can probably take say Syndra and E block his gapcloser, burst his health and force him to run away,maybe even kill him, but sometime later he´ll bulldoze through my stun and kill me in the blink of an eye while i cant really do anything about it. So overall the reason people complain here isnt because one side is more fair or not, the problem is how difficult one is to deal with compared to the other, and both Vayne and Tristana, even when slightly ahead, are much much easier to deal with compared to a Tryndamere who is similarly slightly ahead. Because a marksman, even when a fair bit ahead can still get caught by the enemy support and get stunned to death, Tryndamere? If your jungler comes by any anything goes wrong you might at best force him to run away, slightly worse and he trades 1 for 1+assist or he kills both. Toplaners are inherently a lot more powerful earlier and better able to fight multiple opponents, although the prime example for this is probably Darius but Tryndamere still does it when even a bit fed.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2019-02-28T18:14:28.168+0000) > > How the heck do you limit a ranged auto attack carry? Their worth is entirely decided by the damage they deal as there are requirements for it. > > And yes the ability to survive is calculated, doesnt matter how much damage they bring if they die instantly so people will pick the options with self peel if the ones with more damage cant survive long enough to use it. > > However if the damage gets lowered too much they simply get replaced by mages, riot really stopped a step or two short of that with the last round of nerfs and changes to IE and phantom dancer and the rest of the crit items. > > The revert saw that True damage was entirely lost, crit damage was comparatively lowered, attackspeed was lowered and crit chance on 3 items was reduced from 100 to 75%. > > Tons of damage was lost no matter which perspective one uses. > > Tristana and Vayne overall have more counterplay than Tryndamere does in their preferred environments. > > Tristana and Vayne are marksmen who like to teamfight, Tryndamere is a skirmisher that wants to splitpush,you can pretty much instantly kill both Tristana and Vayne with a number of abilities or combo´s which are often easily available in a 2v2 lane or a teamfight which is where you´ll mainly see them. > > Sure people hate Vayne´s guts when she isnt dead, i do, but that doesnt excuse Tryndamere either. > > Tryndamere with ult and some items has 0 counterplay short of stunning him until his ult stops, nothing exists at all that is generally doable, this is why people absolutely loathe playing against him, that and like Yasou he is the type that you gotta kill fast but due to various things many cant which also draws aggro. > > > Like sure at some point in a game i can probably take say Syndra and E block his gapcloser, burst his health and force him to run away,maybe even kill him, but sometime later he´ll bulldoze through my stun and kill me in the blink of an eye while i cant really do anything about it. > > So overall the reason people complain here isnt because one side is more fair or not, the problem is how difficult one is to deal with compared to the other, and both Vayne and Tristana, even when slightly ahead, are much much easier to deal with compared to a Tryndamere who is similarly slightly ahead. > > Because a marksman, even when a fair bit ahead can still get caught by the enemy support and get stunned to death, Tryndamere? If your jungler comes by any anything goes wrong you might at best force him to run away, slightly worse and he trades 1 for 1+assist or he kills both. > > Toplaners are inherently a lot more powerful earlier and better able to fight multiple opponents, although the prime example for this is probably Darius but Tryndamere still does it when even a bit fed. Why is everyone thinking I want to see nerfs I don't care if they reduce every ADC's base AD to 0 it doesn't fix the problem. Them reducing the amount of crit chance you get or reducing the amount of damage doesn't fix anything. Draven is a good example of an ADC where you have options to dodge his damage, by denying him his axes. You also know where he is going to walk since he will be wanting to catch these axes again so you have a way to aim your skillshots. --> You can actively do something about Draven other than straight up killing him <-- That is why Draven likes to go a more tanky route with his build (BT or DD for example) because his damage ISN'T 100% reliable. You can add this to other ADCs, like make Vaynes silver bolts a skill shot that doesn't go through minions, the guy hit by the skillshot takes true damage into his face. You can make the displacement a charging ability where the longer she charges the further the enemy is knocked back. You can make it so her Q cd only gets reduced by the R when she hits a silver bolt marked unit but no we chose to not do anything instead and keep telling everyone "just blow her up lmao" > Tristana and Vayne overall have more counterplay than Tryndamere does in their preferred environments. > > Tristana and Vayne are marksmen who like to teamfight, Tryndamere is a skirmisher that wants to splitpush,you can pretty much instantly kill both Tristana and Vayne with a number of abilities or combo´s which are often easily available in a 2v2 lane or a teamfight which is where you´ll mainly see them. > > Sure people hate Vayne´s guts when she isnt dead, i do, but that doesnt excuse Tryndamere either. > > Tryndamere with ult and some items has 0 counterplay short of stunning him until his ult stops, nothing exists at all that is generally doable, this is why people absolutely loathe playing against him, that and like Yasou he is the type that you gotta kill fast but due to various things many cant which also draws aggro. Ah yeah there it is "just blow them up lmao" Tryndamere has more counterplay than Vayne and Tristana combined and that really says something. Again you have ways to work around Tryndamere apart form "blowing him up lmao". He is highly kiteable, you can dodge his only cc ability, his mobility is heavily reduced when he can't stick onto a target, when he uses his Q he loses a lot of DPS (especially early game) so you know when you can punish him. Vayne or Trist have none of that, everything point and click, non-kiteable, self buffs are instant, cc can't be dodged, nothing. "but they need to be reliable since they get blown up!" And we are back at the start of this discussion > Like sure at some point in a game i can probably take say Syndra and E block his gapcloser, burst his health and force him to run away,maybe even kill him, but sometime later he´ll bulldoze through my stun and kill me in the blink of an eye while i cant really do anything about it. Any god damn splitpusher will do that to Syndra, Syndra isn't fit to fight splitpushers. It's like saying Janna can't 1 v 1 Trundle so Trundle is unhealthy, what kind of logic is that. Also I don't get how a Tryn should just "bulldoze through your stun" when you already blocked his E. > Because a marksman, even when a fair bit ahead can still get caught by the enemy support and get stunned to death, Tryndamere? If your jungler comes by any anything goes wrong you might at best force him to run away, slightly worse and he trades 1 for 1+assist or he kills both. ???????????????????????? Yeah if you missplay shit hits the fan, that has nothing to do with Tryndamere, any champ will punish the enemy for missplays.
: I mean......OP your entire rant is basically concluding into the idea that different standards apply for melee vs ranged and there is a unfair bias against ranged with Tryndamere as the example? Dude what? The reason melee must have more restrictions for damage compared to the average marksman is the fact that the average melee doesnt need a babysitter acting like a mobile fortress to keep them alive, the average marksman does. Sure Kog and Ashe the old gen marksmen are stat checky, but they pay for this by pretty much being utterly useless 1v1 and nearly utterly helpless when dived on, unlike Tryndamere who is equally stat checky but way better on his own. Vayne vs Fiora? Why bother comparing which is better or worse between aids and cancer? Last i heard they´re terrible and humanity was trying to find cures for both. The only counterplay the average marksmen against a strong assassin, burst mage or strong fighter have is to pray to the heavens their support have the tools to keep them safe against the present enemy team otherwise its a 15-30 minutes grey screen countdown until the game ends, as Tryndamere you can at least hope to scale to the point where very few champs in the game can ever hope to fight you 1v1 thus be useful that way.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-02-28T15:10:37.465+0000) > > I mean......OP your entire rant is basically concluding into the idea that different standards apply for melee vs ranged and there is a unfair bias against ranged with Tryndamere as the example? > > > Dude what? > > The reason melee must have more restrictions for damage compared to the average marksman is the fact that the average melee doesnt need a babysitter acting like a mobile fortress to keep them alive, the average marksman does. > > Sure Kog and Ashe the old gen marksmen are stat checky, but they pay for this by pretty much being utterly useless 1v1 and nearly utterly helpless when dived on, unlike Tryndamere who is equally stat checky but way better on his own. > > > Vayne vs Fiora? Why bother comparing which is better or worse between aids and cancer? Last i heard they´re terrible and humanity was trying to find cures for both. > > > > The only counterplay the average marksmen against a strong assassin, burst mage or strong fighter have is to pray to the heavens their support have the tools to keep them safe against the present enemy team otherwise its a 15-30 minutes grey screen countdown until the game ends, as Tryndamere you can at least hope to scale to the point where very few champs in the game can ever hope to fight you 1v1 thus be useful that way. - ADCs have low mechanical counterplay (toxic design) so we need to make it so they blow up instantly - They need high reliable damage since they blow up instantly How about we just.... break the cycle? You can make ranged have limitation just like melees and give them less reliable damage but more defenses to get more time and pull the damage off. It is how a melee carry works Edit: Also I compared the newly released melee carries to the newly released ranged carries, Tryndamere is in there to show the double standard, Trinstana / Vayne have the same amount of mechanical counterplay as Tryn but Tryn gets flamed way more for no god damn reason.
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-28T14:39:32.524+0000) > > And now Kog is hitting your turret/taking an objective? > Wanna just walk away from that too? > > Anyway this isn't about who can 1 v 1 who under what conditions > This isn't about who is strong or what is viable. > > I wasn't even asking you what makes Yi strong or why melee carries are stronger in 1 v 1 with ranged carries or spear mixed with Fiora or Jax > > The only thing I asked you is, why are melees held to higher standards than ranged? > > Why do the new generation of melees have so much shit to work with while ranged just have to start auto attacking? > > Kai'Sa just has to auto and she is the newest ADC, she activates the full potential of her kit by auto attacking, the condition for her to get max DPS is to literally just have a target to auto attack > > You look at Yorick that has to setup graves and hit you with a skillshot into a cage and THEN he reaches max DPS. > And you can even destroy his DPS by killing the ghouls. > > You look at Aatrox that has 1 dash and 1 displacement (which is also a skillshot that cant go through minions) to hit 3 skillshots and reach max DPS. He has to hit 4 skillshots to reach max DPS. > > Darius with his 5 stacks and outer Q and R has to execute > Irelia with stack passive and markings > > You look back at Kaisa and it's WORLDS apart in counterplay, why is that? > What is the reasoning behind that? > Why does Kai'Sa feel like a champ released in 2009 alongside Tristana? Because uninteractive melee carries are toxic to the game? You realize the counterplay to ranged carries is killing them _because they are squishy_. So they are required to dish out a lot of auto attacks, while making sure they don't get blown up. Every ADC you've listed gets blown up. That is not true of melee carries. Since they have to get in melee range, being squishy is not an option, nor is really "dpsing". Either they have to burst so hard that it doesn't matter that they're squishy, because they will delete half your team (i.e. look at damage riven). Or they need to be so tanky that they can actually sit in the middle of 5 people and dps (look at Jax). Or they're completely worthless. So pretty much melee carries have to be balanced around being able to have good survivability in 1v5 situations, while also having good damage in 1v1 situations. ADCs on the other hand can be made super squishy and function in the dynamic of a game. So they lock melee carry potential behind some "minigames" like darius stacks or Fiora's vitals to give them more counterplay that doesn't exist innately in the game.
> [{quoted}](name=TehRamboCow,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-28T14:56:45.696+0000) > > Because uninteractive melee carries are toxic to the game? You realize the counterplay to ranged carries is killing them _because they are squishy_. So they are required to dish out a lot of auto attacks, while making sure they don't get blown up. Every ADC you've listed gets blown up. That is not true of melee carries. Since they have to get in melee range, being squishy is not an option, nor is really "dpsing". > > Either they have to burst so hard that it doesn't matter that they're squishy, because they will delete half your team (i.e. look at damage riven). Or they need to be so tanky that they can actually sit in the middle of 5 people and dps (look at Jax). Or they're completely worthless. So pretty much melee carries have to be balanced around being able to have good survivability in 1v5 situations, while also having good damage in 1v1 situations. ADCs on the other hand can be made super squishy and function in the dynamic of a game. > > So they lock melee carry potential behind some "minigames" like darius stacks or Fiora's vitals to give them more counterplay that doesn't exist innately in the game. > Because uninteractive melee carries are toxic to the game? See? there it is, THERE IT IS! The double standards! Tell me how Vayne or Trist is more "interactive" than Tryn Either all of the are shit designs that need a rework or none of them are. > You realize the counterplay to ranged carries is killing them because they are squishy. So they are required to dish out a lot of auto attacks, while making sure they don't get blown up This is the definition of stat check "kill them before they kill you" that is the literal defintion of the word, if there is no other way to deal with a champ outside of outright deleting them from the equation alltogether then that is shit and toxic design > Every ADC you've listed gets blown up. That is not true of melee carries. Since they have to get in melee range, being squishy is not an option, nor is really "dpsing". Yes because they are ways to deal with melee carries so their counterplay is not "kill them before they kill you" You can deal with Aatrox in other ways than to delete him. That cannot be said about 90% of the ADC roster > Either they have to burst so hard that it doesn't matter that they're squishy, because they will delete half your team (i.e. look at damage riven). Or they need to be so tanky that they can actually sit in the middle of 5 people and dps (look at Jax). Or they're completely worthless. So pretty much melee carries have to be balanced around being able to have good survivability in 1v5 situations, while also having good damage in 1v1 situations. ADCs on the other hand can be made super squishy and function in the dynamic of a game. No this is not how melee carries work? Also nice meme "function in the dynamic of a game" If they get blown up everyone is crying that they are useless, if they cannot be killed they warp the whole game around them, you call that healthy? > So they lock melee carry potential behind some "minigames" like darius stacks or Fiora's vitals to give them more counterplay that doesn't exist innately in the game. You could give every ADC a minigame like Draven, where people can do stuff to stop his damage output significantly Why can't we do that?
: > [{quoted}](name=DanaoIxUv,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-02-28T11:47:39.015+0000) > > I get that the RNG is cancerous > > But what when you take Master Yi as an example? > It's just a melee Vayne or Kog or Trist but Yi is looked down upon WAY more than his ranged counterparts and for what reason? Because against Kog Maw... you can just... walk away? You can literally just walk away from him and he doens't damage you. Yi cannot be kited. Yi and most melee carries also get FAR tankier than any ranged carry. They also 1v1 harder than any ranged carry. The only adc in the game who even has potential at 1v1ing any of the melee carries you pointed out like Jax/Yi/Trynd/Fiora is Vayne. A Fiora with 1 item can tear through most ADCs with 3 items. A Jax can do the same damage as most ADCs late game, yet has 3k+ health and more defensive options than any of those ranged carries. Also imagine thinking you can "kite" Fiora or Jax with their 1 second mobility cooldowns with SoJ. Your analysis is stupid and biased and I can only assume you are low elo.
> [{quoted}](name=TehRamboCow,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-28T14:09:36.652+0000) > > Because against Kog Maw... you can just... walk away? You can literally just walk away from him and he doens't damage you. Yi cannot be kited. Yi and most melee carries also get FAR tankier than any ranged carry. They also 1v1 harder than any ranged carry. The only adc in the game who even has potential at 1v1ing any of the melee carries you pointed out like Jax/Yi/Trynd/Fiora is Vayne. A Fiora with 1 item can tear through most ADCs with 3 items. A Jax can do the same damage as most ADCs late game, yet has 3k+ health and more defensive options than any of those ranged carries. Also imagine thinking you can "kite" Fiora or Jax with their 1 second mobility cooldowns with SoJ. Your analysis is stupid and biased and I can only assume you are low elo. And now Kog is hitting your turret/taking an objective? Wanna just walk away from that too? Anyway this isn't about who can 1 v 1 who under what conditions This isn't about who is strong or what is viable. I wasn't even asking you what makes Yi strong or why melee carries are stronger in 1 v 1 with ranged carries or spear mixed with Fiora or Jax The only thing I asked you is, why are melees held to higher standards than ranged? Why do the new generation of melees have so much shit to work with while ranged just have to start auto attacking? Kai'Sa just has to auto and she is the newest ADC, she activates the full potential of her kit by auto attacking, the condition for her to get max DPS is to literally just have a target to auto attack You look at Yorick that has to setup graves and hit you with a skillshot into a cage and THEN he reaches max DPS. And you can even destroy his DPS by killing the ghouls. You look at Aatrox that has 1 dash and 1 displacement (which is also a skillshot that cant go through minions) to hit 3 skillshots and reach max DPS. He has to hit 4 skillshots to reach max DPS. Darius with his 5 stacks and outer Q and R has to execute Irelia with stack passive and markings You look back at Kaisa and it's WORLDS apart in counterplay, why is that? What is the reasoning behind that? Why does Kai'Sa feel like a champ released in 2009 alongside Tristana?
: you're forgetting tryndamere literally goes invincible for 5 seconds, not to mention how his kit is made unhealthy by the raw amount of rng with his rage bar. as for the adcs you mentioned, i do agree. Just think tryndamere is cancer as well
> [{quoted}](name=Purendar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-28T11:19:17.564+0000) > > you're forgetting tryndamere literally goes invincible for 5 seconds, not to mention how his kit is made unhealthy by the raw amount of rng with his rage bar. > > as for the adcs you mentioned, i do agree. Just think tryndamere is cancer as well I get that the RNG is cancerous But what when you take Master Yi as an example? It's just a melee Vayne or Kog or Trist but Yi is looked down upon WAY more than his ranged counterparts and for what reason?
: Adcs bad Melees good
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-02-28T11:25:02.817+0000) > > Adcs bad > > Melees good I never said that I just hate that melees are held to higher standards while ranged people still get champs with the same mechanical counterplay as release champs and everyone is fine with it Theoretically seen, ranged carries should be held to even higher standards than melee which is the funny thing
: Well maybe because ADCs have to farm the entire game? Or maybe everyone and their mother can 1 shot them at 1 item? Maybe they don't have any good defense items? Tristana have 47% win rate she is dogshit rn, but I do agree with Vayne being absolutely broken I'm ad main and I ban her almost every game her doing 730 true dmg to a squishy target and being untouchable is stupid, and what do ADCs bring other than damage to the game? Nothing
> [{quoted}](name=anatasjhsh01,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2ljp99kL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-28T11:07:29.980+0000) > > Well maybe because ADCs have to farm the entire game? Or maybe everyone and their mother can 1 shot them at 1 item? Maybe they don't have any good defense items? Tristana have 47% win rate she is dogshit rn, but I do agree with Vayne being absolutely broken I'm ad main and I ban her almost every game her doing 730 true dmg to a squishy target and being untouchable is stupid, and what do ADCs bring other than damage to the game? Nothing Melee carries are as much item dependant as ranged carries and the reason ranged carries can't get defenses is because the ONLY counterplay is to kill them! They don't have anything else going for them. The reason Fiora needs the parry is because she needs more time to get the damage off, Tryndamere is melee and needs to get to high value targets first, he gets kited easier than ranged carries, Vayne comes in here and clicks the right mouse button and tadaa, here is your damage. If she had more time to do that then she would kill everyone before she dies herself. Why do you think the game resolves around ADCs when they are unkillable? Because the only counterplay is to kill them and if that "counterplay" is gone there is nothing you can do about it other than to hope that your ADC is less of an ape than the enemy one. I don't care what winrate Tristana has, Tryndamere is dogshit right now too so what? Is that a reason to not give a shit about it?
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