Crashyy (EUW)
: Resolve rune tree "Durability and crowd control", seems to do more damage than both of those traits
Long story short, when Resolve actually **provides** Durability and CC, it's abused by squishy damage dealers who get their defense from there and can then go full offense with items and still be too tanky to kill. So instead Riot pivoted towards another strategy: now Resolve **rewards** Durability and CC, so Tanks have good Runes they can use and that rewards what they already want to do. Don't look at what the Runes do, look at how you get their effects.
: Why is no one abusing storm razor on garen
Two options: * Either it's actually good and the meta simply hasn't catch up yet. Remember that disseminating information takes time and that the change to Stormrazor is only a patch old. ;) * Or it's good, but still-not-as-good-as Triforce/Phantom Dancer, and Garen rarely go for more than 2 offensive items, so there's no room for Stormrazor. But yeah, I'm definitely gonna try Stormrazor myself sometimes.
: I Hate Vayne Top
Oh no, Trista is even worse. But Vayne is a close second.
: Why Does Ludens Proc Spellshield?
I mean, why would it NOT proc spell shields? It would be ridiculous to die from a Luden's proc with a spellshield still active...
: Solving the Karma Subclass Chaos
Wow, I didn't expect the results to be this clear! But there's a clear consensus here...
Dukues (NA)
: It's Been a Fun Decade Riot but I am Finally Out
+1 for the change to Rank Distribution...
Jabalor (NA)
: Meddler, since the support items no longer give lane sustain. Could it be possible for the 50g cost increase nerf from patches ago to be undone? So supports can buy 3 pots/refillable potion at the start of the game?
> [{quoted}](name=Jabalor,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZvsLLMEM,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2019-12-06T18:00:59.912+0000) > > Meddler, since the support items no longer give lane sustain. Could it be possible for the 50g cost increase nerf from patches ago to be undone? So supports can buy 3 pots/refillable potion at the start of the game? That's a good point. I'd also really like to get back to the Spellthief+Faery Charm starter on some Enchanters.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
Happy holidays, enjoy your vacation o/
: The point about transcendence is not bogus, if you're overcapping your gaining AP meaning that the margin of AP you actually gain from the new item is lower than it looks like when just comparing the stats. Also while its easy to overcap CDR mid/late game getting 10% CDR early, (Which is when you got old t2) is HUGE. Its a giant impact to the game and most people would much prefer 10% CDR early than a little bit of AP especially when you can covert the excess CDR into AP via your runes so you don't lose the gold efficency. Now, lets do some quick math just to be certain. T2 frostfang- 10% CDR, 50% mana regen and 20 AP. (Bonus on hit damage and gold generation) Coverts to - (20) Transcendence + (10) Grail + (20) Base = 50 AP and 50% mana regen Late game. T3- 60 AP, 150 Health. (No on hit damage or gold gen). Stats wise the tier 3 item barely eeks out a bit more AP (10) and manages to score 150 health over the t2 support item. That being said the t2 item still let you generate ward and also gave a bit of on hit damage (though not enough to balance out the 10 AP in all likelyhood) and you got it MUCH earlier in the game so it was making an impact on your games sooner. I would much rather prefer having the tier 2 frostfang in my games than the new support item. Edit: I can't seem to find it but maybe you could, do you have any idea what the average time for hitting t3 spellthiefs is? im just curious because it'd also be interesting to compare how long you have to wait for the stats you get from t3 vs the immediate CDR and manaregen you get to cast spells to poke/harass or sustain in lane.
> The point about transcendence is not bogus, if you're overcapping your gaining AP meaning that the margin of AP you actually gain from the new item is lower But then you're not gaining CDR anymore, so you should also deduct that from the total. And spoiler, the result will be the same than keeping the CDR in the total and not counting the AP from Transcendence, because Transcendence's conversion is almost at gold parity. > Also while its easy to overcap CDR mid/late game getting 10% CDR early, (Which is when you got old t2) is HUGE. Its a giant impact to the game and most people would much prefer 10% CDR early OK, that's a valid point. I think you're overselling it, but it's true that I neglected timing issues in my analysis, and I think that 10% CDR is indeed better in mid-game than some AP. I don't believe it's as "HUGE" as you claim, but that's a valid point against the new version. However, if we start talking about timing, the discussions becomes incredibly complex, because how much do you value capping CDR earlier compared to having a finished Redemption or Censer 450g earlier? > Now, lets do some quick math just to be certain. In late, it's much better to get HP than mana regen, and I still think it's unfair to count Grail's passive against the new version. But even if we ignore all that and I don't nitpick, 10 AP + 150 HP + the price of T2 upgrade - 50% regen = ~820g So yeah, I would also "much rather prefer having the tier 2 frostfang in my games than the new support item" if it was the same price. But it is NOT the same price, and I'd much rather have the new support item **and a full component worth of gold on the side** than **just** the old T2. > Edit: I can't seem to find it but maybe you could, do you have any idea what the average time for hitting t3 spellthiefs is? I don't have stats, but from my own anecdotal experience, I would say around 18-20 minutes. ___ Overall, the new version is clearly a nerf in early game before you get the first free upgrade. After the first upgrade, it's roughly even, slight advantage to the old version, still a small nerf, but not a "HUGE" one. But in late game, it's very clearly a buff, no matter how you slice it, up until the very late game when gold doesn't matter anymore and slot efficiency is more important because you're full stuff (but that doesn't happen often). So I mean, if we get back to your original question "who thought supports needed nerfs early?", I don't know, and it's true this is an early nerf, I don't deny that. But *my* original reply was that this is not a nerf "overall". It's a small nerf early in exchange for a bigger buff in mid/late. Personally I'm much happier with the new situation.
: Wouldn't you use other characters' stats from the same class to help get the stats right on a new champ in that class? I didn't say that being a certain class determines the exact stats, I said that it helps them adjust stats.
"Balance" is the fine tuning of numbers. As meme as it is, "balance" is making +/- 3 AD adjustments. The classes are not used for that. The classes are here to say "Juggernauts should have around 130+/-10 AD lvl 18, and ADC should be around 110+/-10". This is design, not balance. And yes, the classes are totally used for design, but not for balance. Like, since your very first post, I said that yes, you were right, the classes are used for design. But design is not balance, that's two different things. Like, new champs are made by one team, and the balancing patches every two weeks are made by another team. That's two different jobs, with different tools and everything. And the classes, it's not a tool for balance. (Examples taken from: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_champions/Attack_damage FYI)
: well idk how didn't i think of practice tool , death dance converts damage , it's not self damage , and yeah it works it made the secondwind last almost 20 seconds ,bruisers should know about this stuff , anyway ty for the idea xd
Yeah, but if you have finished Death's Dance, you're probably not in laning phase anymore, so the impact of Second Wind is pretty minimal.
: does death dance true damage activate second wind ?
My guess is probably not, because Second Wind specifies damage "from enemy champions" and the source of the bleed is not an enemy champion, it's your own item. But the best way to check is to load a game in the Practice Tool and just try it ;)
: 10% CDR is worth 800-900 gold, (900 gold in fiendish codex, and 800 in kindle gem) Fiendish also makes up the missing AP but does nothing for the mana regen so I say 800 as the gold value of lost stats. Also you get t3 shard FAR later into the game than t2 shard which is still objectively worth. EDIT for more detail t2 frost fang (Old) - 10% CDR, 50% mana regen, and 20 AP t2 frost fang (New) - 15 AP and 70 HP t3 frost fang (New) - 60 AP and 150 HP. You're trading 5 AP, 50% mana regen and 10% CDR for 70 HP at rank 2 which is straight up awful, ontop of that mana regen synergies with grail so you're losing out on the scaling from that. Plus the bonus damage on spells and autos. The final tier isn't even objectively better either, 150 HP isn't super meaningful on an enchanter, you'll still get blown up. Most people would MUCH prefer the CDR, additional mana regen works with grail late game so you get AP back (10 flat) so if you're a grail user your only really gaining 30 AP? even less if you're a transcendence user capping off of bonus CDR. But those are all what if scenarios, its just sad that you an't definitively say the FINAL FORM of the new support item is better than the tier 2 form of the old one.
Comparing old T2 and new T2 makes no bloody sense. The new T2 automatically gets upgraded, no matter what, you don't have a choice to remain at the new T2. And... what?! > 10% CDR is worth 800-900 gold, (900 gold in fiendish codex, and 800 in kindle gem) You do realize that neither the Codex nor the Gem provide only CDR? That the AP/HP they provide aren't free at all? 10% CDR is worth a bit less than 300g, as per the wiki. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Gold_efficiency#Base_Statistic_Prices I agree with the point about Grail, though, I'm a fervent user of this item, and it's true the lack of mana regen does indirectly hurt Grail. But that item was sleeper OP before and it's still fine today. The point about Transcendence, on the other hand, is bogus. Transcendence, contrary to the Grail's passive, doesn't multiply the value of your CDR if you overcap, it just converts it. You get ~300g of AP INSTEAD of ~300g of CDR, not in addition to it, that's still just ~300g, so the comparison between the two version of the support items doesn't change one bit with or without Transcendence. And finally, "most people would MUCH prefer the CDR", no, they wouldn't. It's still super easy to overcap even without CDR on the Frostfang. 10 from the stat shard, 10 from Transcendence, 10 from Redemption, 10 from Grail, that's it, you're at 40. Even with Boots and Ward box without CDR, you still have two free slots left, and more likely than not, they will also have CDR (Censer, Twin Shadows, you have it). > its just sad that you an't definitively say the FINAL FORM of the new support item is better than the tier 2 form of the old one. Yes you can, and I'll do it: the final form is immensely better than the old tiers2 form. As a matter of fact, it's better by 1100g, as I had already pointed out in the previous post. By 850g even if you count the AP-from-mana-regen via Grail, which you shouldn't, because a ton of Frostfang users don't build Grail. But even if you do, 850g is still a lot.
: Back in the PBE time where E applied on hit effects wits end was a decent buy but its really not gold efficient at all in the current state especially in comparison to PD. The problem with going storm razor is that investing anymore in crit than just PD means you need to build Infinity edge and going full glass cannon on a melee champion with only a movement speed boost as a gap closer doesnt sound too appetizing and it only has 15% AS. It's offensive for a bruiser but still less offensive than a like fioras build.
Well, Fiora's core is Triforce/Ravenous/Defense boots (according to the same sources I checked for Garen). You can argue that starting at the 3rd item, Fiora's build is more offensive, but before that, nope, Garen is actually more full offense than Fiora with Zerker instead of Defense boots and no sustain in his items. And I don't want to sound like a broken record, but huh, again, that's not the bloody point. My comment was about build diversity and how the rework originally opened a spectrum of builds from the more tanky to the more offensive. I fear this nerf will make the more offensive extremity of the spectrum mandatory and the only one viable.
: > [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jnu2RXAE,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-04T18:07:40.731+0000) > > "How little damage they have"? They have a 30% execute proc. Here's your bloody damage. let me sit here autoing this cannon for ages trying to get it low enough to execute meanwhile adc accidently one shots it and therefore you don't get the execute so you're behind more
Sure, ADC one-shot cannons... To quote yourself from a few posts back: "in what world?"
: > [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jnu2RXAE,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-04T17:57:02.609+0000) > > In the world where it takes literally half a second to issue a basic attack from range compared to having to walk up 1s to the minion, attack it, then back away out of retaliation range once again. > > Typical attack range for Enchanter: 500-550. Typical move speed of melee support: 330. You literally have to spend 3s to move to a minion and back again as a melee support compared to a range, 3s during which you are entirely vulnerable. > > So yeah, even with a smaller window to proc the execute, even with "only" 30%, it's definitely easier as a ranged. safety isnt the problem the problem is how much wave clear adcs have and how little damage ranged champs have to kill the minions having to deal with people who won't let you execute minions is cancerous to try and work with
"How little damage they have"? They have a 30% execute proc. Here's your bloody damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jnu2RXAE,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-04T17:37:55.017+0000) > > It's easier to proc at 30% for ranged than it is at 50% for melee. > > It's also easier to proc at 30% for ranged than it was to go up and take up coins without being punished. 30% is easier to do than 50% in what world? and no coin was insanely safe compared to having to stand and deliver unto a minion while praying your own adc doesn't crit it from you
In the world where it takes literally half a second to issue a basic attack from range compared to having to walk up 1s to the minion, attack it, then back away out of retaliation range once again. Typical attack range for Enchanter: 500-550. Typical move speed of melee support: 330. You literally have to spend 3s to move to a minion and back again as a melee support compared to a range, 3s during which you are entirely vulnerable. So yeah, even with a smaller window to proc the execute, even with "only" 30%, it's definitely easier as a ranged.
: > [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jnu2RXAE,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-04T17:04:41.613+0000) > > The item execute went from 0% to 30%, and you're still complaining... Have you even tried it in-game? Probably not, since you were not aware of the change. Trust me, it's super easy to proc... 1 i have and 2 i already knew it was 30% and thats what the problem is it should be 50% all across the board
It's easier to proc at 30% for ranged than it is at 50% for melee. It's also easier to proc at 30% for ranged than it was to go up and take up coins without being punished.
: > [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jnu2RXAE,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-04T16:56:11.880+0000) > > Huuh, everywhere? > > * in the item tooltip, it doesn't specify "melee" anymore > * it was said on Twitter while the patch was still on PBE. > * and of course, it was also in the patch notes commentary: https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-923-notes#patch-relic-shield-line basic attacks execute minions below 50% of their max Health (30% for ranged this is not equal opportunity this is "shit i have an adc with waveclear guess I won't be getting my upgrades on time" if you are any non melee support trying to have hp
The item execute went from 0% to 30%, and you're still complaining... Have you even tried it in-game? Probably not, since you were not aware of the change. Trust me, it's super easy to proc...
: > [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jnu2RXAE,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-12-04T16:41:52.906+0000) > > Yeah, they should. And they are. where did they say they are doing this?
Huuh, everywhere? * in the item tooltip, it doesn't specify "melee" anymore * it was said on Twitter while the patch was still on PBE. * and of course, it was also in the patch notes commentary: https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-923-notes#patch-relic-shield-line > That, however, allows us to grant ranged champs access to the minion execute.
Saezio (EUNE)
: IDK man, I love dots, what can I tell you? xD I loved old DFT too but we are never getting anything similar are we? :(
You personal case is not the norm ^^' I mean, I don't have a problem playing non-flashy champs personally, but the majority of players want to easily see the impact of their skills when they use it. And that's harder for DoTs.
: i mean i kinda agree and kinda disagree...................... I think all supports should be able to use the execute passive of the relic variety (without favoritism to melee especially after the changes) But at the same time I don't think urgot should be considered melee because I remember steraks gauge urgod ruining my fun for like a month O_O it was torture
> I think all supports should be able to use the execute passive of the relic variety (without favoritism to melee especially after the changes) Yeah, they should. And they are.
: Can we have a rework on what Champions are considered Melee and Ranged?
Urgot is a real hard case, because the Tiamat line would be bonkers on him if he was allowed to build it. Even at 1/3 damage effectiveness. But yeah, I'd really like for him to be able to use Sterak, and a not nerfed Phage/Frozen Mallet/Conqueror.
: Well there arent any other gold efficient attack speed items garen can go. Triforce, Greaves, PD are the only ones.
Wit's End. And now in pre-season, the new version of Stormrazor. Actually, with that slow effect, I should try that. But that's beside the point. In the old builds, if you wanted more than one offensive item, your second one was typically Sterak. That's immensely more defensive than PD. Triforce/PD/Zerker *is* definitely a full offense build.
: Offensive Garen became a thing because of the blow-up before getting blown-up meta, they've strived for ever since runes reforged. If there's a decent option for offense, and a decent option for defense, the defensive option is usually the less effective one. As you implied, this nerf is non sensical, serving no other pupose than literally gutting both AS and tanky Garen into non-viability.
> Offensive Garen became a thing because of the blow-up before getting blown-up meta Not really. I was already making Triforce as a default even before the rework, but I was going full Tank after that. PD became viable thanks to the AS ratio only, not out of any large systemic effort to enforce a burstier meta. And as long as PD is one of many options, I'm fine with that, it was good to be able to go full offense sometimes. I just don't want it to be the *only* option available. > As you implied, this nerf is non sensical, serving no other pupose than literally gutting both AS and tanky Garen into non-viability. My last hope is that nerfing the AS ratio will make AS items less effective and so will make defensive items comparatively better again. But the fact they are also nerfing the base damage at the same time makes me super worried.
: Triforce Phantom Dancer is not a "full offense" build. It's a bruiser item, and the most defensive zeal item.
Making a Zeal item at all on a Bruiser is already going full offense. You never see Olaf, Mundo, Yorick, Jarvan, Vi, Jax, or any of the other usual Bruisers doing Zeal. As for Triforce, OK, it's actually a Bruiser a item, but it's the most offensive of them all except maybe DeathDance or the new Sanguine Blade. (I'm not really sure what Sanguine is even supposed to be at this point.) Triforce is super expansive with only a tiny bit of HP as defensive stats.
Raoul (EUW)
: is there no more coin option for supports?
The new shields ({{item:3858}} and {{item:3854}}) can be used instead. Now you can proc the minion execute even as a ranged champion.
Saezio (EUNE)
: When was the last time a DoT effect was introduced to the game?
One issue is that DoTs *feel* a lot weaker than they actually are, and so are less satisfying. If you're trying to make an appealing new character when there are already more than 140, this kind of abilities don't cut it anymore, people just keep playing their old favorite. I'm not claiming that's the only reason, but it's definitely playing a part.
wildfox9T (EUW)
: thorns apply GW when an enemy is attacking you,if they don't how can they use their lifesteal? also if you read the tooltip you notice that {{item:3123}} is actually the better one,it doesn't proc on AA only but on ANY phisical damage,so both autoattacks and abilities for AD champs let's forget that AAs can't miss unlike abilities,morello last 3 sec and if your abilities are on CD you enemy can lifesteal back the damage,thing that doesn't happen with the AD version since you can keep autoattacking him (they both last 3 sec) edit: if anything giving an item all the stats of the completed one would be way too overloaded,they should make an unique AP item that replaces {{item:1026}} in morello's recipe
You're right about Executioner. On Bramblevest though, you forget healing is not always from lifesteal. Vlad can heal without auto-attacking. So does Mundo or Illaoi, and even Darius in some circumstances. All the Mages who abuse Conqueror right now also get a lot of healing without attacking.
: Soo, about ranged conq nerfs and Garen nerfs...
On Garen: my worries are slightly different. His most common and highest winrate build right now is already full offense: Triforce/Zerker/PD. The goal of the rework was to open up this kind of offensive builds for when you're ahead, but now that it's already the optimal build and if you nerf his kit damage, you will HAVE to build full offense, and the old, more tanky, builds will be impossible to pull out. In the end, the rework won't have open build diversity at all, it will only push him to play as a bad diver/assassin. At least that's what I fear. I hope it won't actually come to that.
: Soo, about ranged conq nerfs and Garen nerfs...
That deserves two separate threads instead of a big one with everything mixed together, but I agree.
: Lets talk about Champion Classes - An attempt to fix the game
Obligatory repost of my old version: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fSghVIlb1XdodKU0ze_gY4a57qwFFZWtuVX_d3Daryg/edit?usp=sharing
: you lose 800 gold in stats (10% CDR and mana regen) and save 600 gold. Unless you were a tank support you never upgraded to tier 3 since only 600 saved. Plus u don't gain gold latler and u get those spikes later while making less gold early ;/
As a non-Tank Support (old Eye of Frost vs new Shard of True Ice), you do lose CDR and mana regen worth less than 600g (not 800), but you ALSO gain 40 AP and 150 HP worth 1270g, for a net change of more than 600g in your favor on stats alone. Add to that the the new tiers 3 Shard only cost the 400g of the starting item whereas the old tiers 2 Frostfang was already 850g, just tiers 2, and you get to a grand total of 1100g, even for non-Tank supports who never upgraded to tiers 3.
: I don't understand the question 1- if you're rooted and then use cleanse of course you can dash just like if you use QSS because it removes the cc 2- do u mean at the same time? -2.5- why though?
They mean the Dash Summoner Spell from ARAM. The mark left by Snowball.
: Wym? they could've made someone like ornn an assassin through his stats, the same way ekko is an assassin despite having a kit more like a tank. They want ekko to be an assassin, so his stats are that of an assassins. They want ornn to be a tank so his stats are that of a tanks.
I mean that the classes are only giving a general idea, not precise numbers. No one is going through the process of balancing the roster like "OK, so Ornn is a Tank, he should have X Armor and Y damage". Classes don't guide the fine tuning, they guide the first draft. (And no, Ekko doesn't have the kit of a Tank. One super-delayed hard CC and one soft CC, and everything else is damage or mobility. Clearly not a Tank, no matter what numbers you put on it. Same for Ornn, he has one free target dash, but it doesn't go through wall and has a big delay and no reset, that's clearly not Assassin-level mobility/target selection, no matter the numbers you put on that. On the other hand, he has 2 relatively easy to hit AoE hard CC and one low CD slow.)
: They do design champs loosely based off of a class type. It's one of the first things they use to guide the development of a new champ. Champ design goes: ok so we want to make a **tank** who knocks shit around and uses terrain to their advantage ({{champion:516}}). The proposed "class" helps them adjust stats and create the feel of the champ
No, it does not help adjust stat, and it doesn't guide balance. Very much yes on feel of the champ, and the process you describe does happen, yes. But that's not balance. The class system isn't used for balance.
: Can someone point out the weakness of a ranged champion TOP when playing vs a non-mobile melee?
There are lanes you're not supposed to win, period. But this is a team-game, and you have an opportunity to fight for the win in mid/late game. Ranged laners have an advantage in the 1v1 vs an immobile melee, but it comes at the price of usually worse team-comp and scaling.
Done25 (NA)
: Remove souls from CS she takes to lower the power of ADC Senna. Remove the self heal or reduce her base range to make her less of a 1v1 lane bully in general.
It's already partially the case. You're 5 times less likely to get a soul from a minion you last hit.
: Ranked Elo Decay?
Yeah, as the other comment said, it should put you back at your old level, but don't worry about other people and just power through it. It's nice of you to be considerate like that, but life happens, and if your team-mates give you sh*t over that, they are the problem, not you.
: > [{quoted}](name=DeathBurst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ExAFtxIv,comment-id=000c00000001,timestamp=2019-12-02T15:29:47.641+0000) > > Yeah, they mean nothing, because they were never SUPPOSED to. If they are not supposed to mean anything how do we even balance this game then? How do we create champion diversity if in the end there's not a design philosophy to aid developers? Qiyana having more utility and CC than most champions despite being an "assassin" who has no business initiating teamfights or locking up multiple targets. Kai'sa being an "marksman/Assassin" with abilities that scale harder than champions like Varus intended to be "Marksman/Artillery" Some champions only for of weakness and counterplay is supposed to be their high cooldowns. Yet nowdays most classes are allowed to reach 40% CDR without sacrificing any stats for it. Of course that if champions classes truly mean nothing then i guess its safe to say that the only guideline Riot uses to balance their game is their own personal bias and favoritism towards certain champions which is even more problematic. Of course i'm not claiming that champion classes should be followed blindly and in 100% of the cases, it is necessary to deviate from it from time to time otherwise every champion design becomes stale but to simply ignore it?
Have you read my *original* comment before replying to the second one? Because, you know, that would make more sense. So, to reiterate: The class system is a tool to analyze and describe champs. It is *purely* descriptive. It is a set of language shortcuts, to be able to communicate more quickly and accurately. But it does NOT mean a single thing about balance. You can make a champion that perfectly fits into one of the class description OP. Remove Garen MS on Q, remove his Tenacity on W, then multiply his R damage by 10. That's a perfect Juggernaut posterchild right there. And it's also perfectly OP, and no one would ever be dumb enough to release it. ________ > Of course that if champions classes truly mean nothing then i guess its safe to say that the only guideline Riot uses to balance their game is their own personal bias and favoritism Of course not. THIS thing not being a guideline for balance does not mean NOTHING is a guideline for balance.
Morglics (EUNE)
: blablabla , basically these class types mean nothing
Yeah, they mean nothing, because they were never SUPPOSED to.
: Can anyone explain how tanks can actually be tanks.
Why did you let him attack your for 6 seconds? What was the rest of your team doing during that time? If you tried to 1v1 a DPS carry as a Tank and you lost, that's normal, even if the carry was not fed. On the other hand, if an Assassin, even not fed, had jumped on him, he would have lost no matter what. Champs all have different roles in a team, and that's a good thing.
: Make {{item:3102}} a tank item again for a start. The mid-season 7 tank update was one of the worst large scale updates in the game and a big part of that is because it completely ruined tank itemization and removed the dedicated anti-burst MR option from their item pool so that mages could build it and then proceed to never do so in the 2-and-a-half years since. The next step would be to bump the pure damage items down to the gold value that tanks get. For armor item, that value ranges from around 70% Gold efficient ({{item:3075}} ) to 85% ({{item:3068}}) MR items a bit more efficient in that regard, and {{item:3065}} is above gold efficient, but that efficiency comes from the base health regen. Without additional healing in a tank's kit, it isn't much better than {{item:3194}}'s 88% gold efficiency. The reason the raw gold efficiency is so important in this discussion comes from how damage and resistances scale. It's been said by some, erroneously, that resistances "fall off" in their damage mitigation. This isn't true, but what is true is that point for point, damage scales at twice the rate of resistance. Consider two identical champions auto attack trading: 1000 health 100 AD 100 AR (= 2000 effective health vs physical damage) vs 1000 100 100 = 20 autos to kill Add 50 AD to one and 50 Armor to the other: 1000 health 150 AD 100 AR vs 1000 100 150 (=2500 effective health) = 16.6 autos to kill (17 whole autos) How about 100 extra armor instead? = 3000 effective health =20 autos to kill Point for point, you need twice the bonus armor as an opposing AD build needs AD to match them. Now, the base items already indicate an issue. {{item:1029}} grants 15 armor for 300g (20g per point) {{item:1036}} grants 10 AD for 350 (35g per point). That is, AD costs 1.75x the cost of armor. Oh, AD outscales armor at a 2x rate, but only costs 1.75x. Hmm, maybe things look better on the magical end? MR and AP isn't quite the same comparison since AP ratios differ among champions, but the general rule that governs the cost of AP vs AD is that both should cost around 60% of their physical counterpart. Ahh! Well, see, while AP costs 60% (okay, 62% and some decimals) the cost of AD, MR costs 90% of the price of Armor, at 18g per point. That explains in large part why even without MR shred, AP champions with at least 62% AP ratios will just out trade against the same cost of a pure MR build. And that's not even going into the fact that tanks need to split the resistances they build making them half-again as effective against BOTH damage types. Before mid-season 7 this was less of an issue, as both the largest MR and AR items -- {{item:3065}} and {{item:3742}} / {{item:3068}}, granted more health which helped against the opposing damage type and multiplied the effect of the resistance they granted by that much more. For the armor items' case, that's 75 more health but 10 less armor (Granting a total of 750 effective health on its own compared to the 680 effective health from the live version). For {{item:3065}} it's 50 more health and 5 less MR (750 effective health vs 697.5 for live). With the higher health, both together granted much more tankiness than the combination does currently: 1500 effective health against both damage types, compared to live's 1400 vs physical and 1356.25 vs magic damage. But riot wasn't done, no sir. Later that year would see pre-season 8 and ~~MASTERIES RENAMED~~ I mean RUNES REFORGED. With this new rune system, not only were armor red/yellows/quints and scaling MR blues gone removing ~27 of both resistances, but a lot, and I mean a lot a lot, of resistances were completely cut from the Masteries themselves. Siegemaster gone -8 both resistances. Unyielding gone -5% bonus resistances. Veteran's scars gone -50 health. Fearless gone -10% +1.5 per level resistances. Legendary guardian gone -3 resistances in 1v1s, -6/9 in skirmishes, and - 15 in team fights. Stoneborn pact GONE -5% health. And in the place of all of that? +9 base armor to compensate missing yellows; 9 resistances +5% only after laning phase is already lost; and a whopping 33 health after 13 waves of nonstop uninterrupted farming (~8 minutes of never leaving lane from the start of the first wave to the end of the 13th.). Oh and that farm eventually gives +3.5% health if you never go for objectives or help the team in any way for 20 minutes. Woo. So 27 +8 +3 +1.5 +5% +10% = 45.485 resistance and 50 +5% = 52.5 health minimum (level 1, and against 1 opponent) gone , and 9 +9 +5% = 18.9 armor, 9 +10% = 9.45 MR, and 66 +3.5% = 89.1 health maximum after 20 minutes added. I mean maybe someone at riot just.. Forgot to compensate for the missing stats entirely with the new runes? Oh nope carry champions get infinitely scaling AP/AD or 20 bonus adaptive force above 70% health and +9 base AD and +16 adaptive force and 6 armorpen/mpen for walking into a brush and 20 bonus adaptive force for warding/oneshotting 0.01second faster than their opponent. So they didn't forget to compensate them fuck no.
This is a great post, and it's very useful as a base for discussion, but using it to directly conclude that Tanks got the short end of the stick is flawed. For instance, and that's just one point among many, offensive stats scale better than defensive stats, but if you buy only offensive stats, you will die much faster as time goes on, and have less time to output this better-scaling damage. Another point: champs who buy defense also typically have CC, and they shouldn't stand still and let the opponents output these "17 whole attacks" without doing anything, and with CD naturally scaling down as time goes on, the "uptime" of the damage dealer should go down to, so you don't need as much effective life to effectively live longer. All in all, when I play a Tank, my issue isn't that I die too fast, it's that I don't know what I can do to win the game. If my carries don't play properly, there's only so much I can do to protect them, and whether or not we actually win fights is out of my hands. And THAT's super frustrating and annoying (which is why I usually don't play Tank outside of organized 4- or 5-premade), but dying too fast was never really an issue.
: Why do we even have champion classes?
The point of the class system was only to serve as a point of reference, as a shared vocabulary, to discuss champions and balance. It was never supposed to be prescriptive, only descriptive. They are not "design values", they are language shortcuts. I mean, feel free to criticize the balance of the game itself. Feel free to claim that Yasuo or Yi have too much burst. But don't point at the class system and say "they are class X, they should have Y damage", because that's not the goal of this tool, like, at all. (I'd argue that the class system fails EVEN at its intended goal, because no one really uses "Catcher" or whatever, and people keep talking about "Bruisers", which is not in the class system at all, and was never actually defined, but eh, that's a different complaint...)
: So who thought supports needed nerfs early?
If that rant is about the new starting items for support... They're not really nerfs overall. A slight nerf before your first back, but as soon as you back once and can spend that 450g on something else than your item upgrade, you're ahead.
: Senna's DMG is far easier to apply thanks to her range. The stats don't lie.
Dealing a lot of damage with poke that doesn't lead to kills increase your stats but isn't all that useful. Go check the damage stats from Teemo, or from Maokai, and you'll understand that total damage over the whole game isn't a meaningful stat.
: Yeah having those options of AP/AD and damage/tank is really good. They could really have done without the horrid farm penalty and the terrible stats nerfs though.
The farm penalty is never actually triggered in practice. And the amount of stats **per gold** is immensely better, since you don't need to pay for the upgrades at all.
: I kind of wish the items were a little cheaper so you could start with one of them, 1 pot, and either a mana bead or a health bead. If you don't buy any pots you could leash, base, and grab one of the items before going to lane, but then you'd be without any pots.
Back when Spellthief was still only 350 instead of 400g, I used to start with Spellthief+mana bead and no potion at all on Sona, and it was working petty well. I tried to convince them to put the price at 375, because it lets you buy a mana bead but not 3 potions (which is what they were trying to prevent by hiking the price up to 400), but no luck.
: Completed support items are rough on supports
The penalty is still there, IF you trigger it in the first place. And *that* is very unlikely. You need to farm more than 20 CS (over 5 minutes) to trigger it, so that's farming 3 waves. You can totally defend an inhib without issue. And if you are at the point where the support has to stay in base to defend inhib while the rest of the team go do something else elsewhere on the map, even if you eventually trigger the penalty, and after triggering it farm 3 more waves, that's what? A 200 gold difference? Won't change anything so late in the game.
: Why are Pyke and Senna allowed to be exempt from the support changes?
Huh, in what world is Support gold income knee-capped? You got 1400 g for free for not having to upgrade your support item anymore. I've never hit full stuff on support so fast than the last patch.
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