: @Meddler @Rickless I Actually Think the Temporary Karma Changes Are Ok, But Could be Improved
I do not like early game buffs to Karma no matter what they are. Even just base armor/regen pre-6 is a recipe for disaster. Not because Karma _doesn't _need buffs in some manner, but just because it's the completely wrong approach. She's just going to end up toxic to play against in lane without solving her issues scaling even just past level 6. They should buff the bonuses that Karma gains on each mantra rank. I'd personally change her so that her mantra cooldown is is 45/30/22/15 but **isn't** affected by cooldown reduction (helping build flexibility in the process, even if CDR is still very useful because of passive interaction). Then change her mantra bonuses to: RQ BONUS MAGIC DAMAGE: 25 / 75 / 125 / 175 (+ 30% AP) > 25 / **100** / 150 / 200 (+ 30% AP) DETONATION MAGIC DAMAGE: 50 / 150 / 250 / 350 (+ 60% AP) > 50 / **200** / 300 / 400 (+ 60% AP) RW BONUS ROOT DURATION: 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 / 1.25 > 0.5 / **1** / 1.25 / 1.5 RE BONUS SHIELD: 30 / 90 / 150 / 210 (+ 60% AP) > 30 / **120** / 180 / 240 (+ 60% AP) This would help her level 6 power spike which is all she really needs.
Larriet (NA)
: It's been stated that they're planning actual kits changes, not just "simple number buffs", so buffing her to viability now & then buffing her functionality would mean they'd need _nerfs_ at that point. So they're going to give just a little so they have more room to buff her when they do larger work. That's what I'd assume, anyway; although that means she'll be weaker for a bit longer, that also means they can "go wild" with the upcoming changes, so to speak.
I think the problem is that buffing her early game isn't the correct short-term solution (+6 base armor is **not** small for a champion with a lot of defensive tools) when her problem is scaling past level 6. All that's going to happen is her being incredibly toxic to play against early game when making her feel bad to play later on into the game. It doesn't benefit both the player and the enemy. I think the correct solution is increasing the bonuses on each Mantra rank. This makes her level 6/11/16 power spikes higher without affecting pre-6.
: I have never gotten the vocal minority of players that constantly whine about Karma, when rework Karma is perfectly fine.
She has no identity and is stuck between either being a shield-bot (support) a mage with only 1 main damaging spell (mid) or an obnoxious drain tank (top). The problem is that when doing any of these she has to double down on only one part of her kit which goes against the decision making of her Mantra mechanic. He kit as a whole doesn't come together to create a cohesive role or identity, and her mantra options are almost always proactive (what role she's playing) rather than _reactive_ based on the situation. That's her biggest problem. I'd like to see a rework where she's given two mantra charges again (possibly the second charge gained at level 6 so she has an appropriate power spike) but each enhanced spell has its own internal cooldown (~8 seconds). Then change their effects to be reactive-based rather than being based on very different roles. This would help to create a cohesive kit where the player actually has to make decisions on the fly.
Risen29 (NA)
: I dont like true damage and %health being sprinkled everywhere. Seems like every champion is getting it over time. As if being on items wasnt enough. Its a lazy way to deal with issues. These things should be put in kits where it makes sense from a design or thematic standpoint, not just because everyone needs some abitrary tank killing amp in thier kit.
On the other hand, people have a lazy idealization as to what "true damage" actually is or how it's balanced. If true damage is tuned to be 50% weaker than standard damage at base, it means that said 'true damage' is weaker prior to 100 armor or MR. People are generally quick to assume True damage = OP, but realistically its discussed under hyperbole since it's fairly obvious that any source of true damage in terms of tuning would be 2x to 3x as numerically stronger should it be physical/magical. In essence, true damage is just a means to balance squishy champs vs. tanky ones in terms of survival. Unless they really over-tune the numbers, it really isn't anything more than that. True damage is not inherently too powerful, since its merely used as a means to punish tankier builds vs. the opposite based on base values.
: I would absolutely LOVE a Karma revert. Old Karma was extremely skill expressive.
> [{quoted}](name=Z3Sleeper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ezJ4OML,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-04-03T00:52:58.097+0000) > > I would absolutely LOVE a Karma revert. Old Karma was extremely skill expressive. Eh... Old Karma was only really "skill expressive" because she was very underpowered (~35% winrate) forcing the player to have a huge amount of base game knowledge to do well on, and her actual kit had very low interactivity/counterplay (aside from the most undertuned part of her kit; the old W). Shield Bomb is what you should have been using both your Mantra charges on 95% of the time (lack of real choice) because the heal on RQ was deceptively weak and RW was a huge waste until W was maxed out or something (old Mantra scaled with the rank of the base spell, making the heal on Q even worse until past mid game). She had to spam shield bomb to remotely function as a champion (including for waveclear and survival, let alone damage) which also so happened to have no real counterplay at the same time (so if Karma ever got ahead or fed, she's be both bursty **and** tanky in a similar vein as Mordekaiser -- without the weakness to kiting. Her old passive also didn't help with this). She needed a complete rework if she were to ever have a healthy winrate. Was the rework handled as it should have been? Probably not. But it was needed nonetheless. A revert would be a bad idea. Honestly, as much as people want the shield bomb to be a hugely prominent part of her kit again, there are... limitations to how good it can actually be. She was only kept in-check because it was the only good part about her kit back then. However, if they added some kind of counterplay to RE and buffed the rest of her kit, then maybe it could have worked. Problem is that the easiest solution would be something like Sion or Ivern's shield and the thing is, Sion existed before Karma. The instantaneous damage is what made it different _in the first place_. Lack of interactivity was part of her identity, which can easily concern Riot. It's just that nobody remembers her kit being a problem because she was left intentionally weak until reworked -- keeping in mind that in-house testing probably revealed to Riot there was no way her kit could be made viable/strong. For the lore change itself. I agree, it doesn't seem to be a very good one. She went from being strong and decisive to... unsure and weak-willed?
: Personally, I don't like the lore change. The one thing that has stayed consistent through her rework and her changes is that she is someone who isn't afraid to fight back if she has to. She is someone who isn't war crazy but she also isn't someone who sits down and does nothing and hopes for peace. She fights for peace, politically and physically if she has to. That's what Karma has always been about.
I think people are reading the new lore completely wrong. The fact that it specifies that they don't like to use their powers for destruction,** heavily implies that she is capable of doing so**. Otherwise, why would they bother to specify that? The gameplay of LoL is non-canon and is merely a virtual representation of the power of each champ. If her lore outright states that she is _capable_ of destruction, but rarely uses it for lore reason, then why wouldn't she unleash this in-gameplay where that wouldn't apply? The wording of this seems obvious to me. Her name 'Karma' could tie very much into this. She rarely uses her powers for war/destruction, but when she _**does**_, it's because her victims very much_ deserve_ it. ~~Like angry Riven mains in top lane~~ This could potentially play out perfectly for her.
Thryale (NA)
: speaking of karma work, are you able to give us yer preliminary thoughts on her, and where you'd like to take her?
I believe that Riot has mentioned a few times in the past that while her rework made her a lot more balanced (since the old one was intentionally left at a very low winrate because she was basically a ranged Morde with no real counterplay. Want to poke her down? Too bad, she gets stronger if you do that. Want to 100-0 her? Well you can't because of her heal/shield) it also made her lose anything that defined her or made her unique (outside of ulti). Karma's current kit is far too "safe". It's very functional and easy to balance, but rather bland and she really doesn't bring anything that another champion doesn't provide. Unlike say, her old W, which while ridiculously underpowered, was a unique/cool concept. These days, even her ulti is similar to Heimer/Rengar. Riot wants to give her an identity and a reason to pick her other than when her numbers are good/great. Personally, I feel that out of every champion in the game, an Invoker (Dota) inspired kit could really work for her, where she uses Mantra to transform her abilities over time (like choosing between the shield-bomb effect on RE, or choosing an AoE shield like now, or choosing a single bigger shield that reflects damage or something etc...). Far less extreme/varied than Invoker; all base abilities would be the same pre-6. But levelling her ulti could let her transform the mantra effects of each ability at LV6/11/16 in any order you choose. This pushes her further into the flexible/all-around support but in a much more interesting way. But that's just _one_ direction they could go with her. She has a lot of potential for an awesome kit. As my most played champion, I look forward to it.
: Those PBE changes will not help Evelynn, her charm needs to be reimagined as well as other changes
I swear that if the whole community had their way, every champion would have no weaknesses. Suck it up; each champ needs some things they're bad at. An environment where every champ is at least decent in all areas actually makes things worse by making numbers more important than niche/drafting. Eve's charm is risk/reward. After future buffs she will likely be able to use the slow more consistently during ganks rather than relying on the charm. Charm is the best CC in the entire game but a slow is useful too -- and more than what the old Eve had outside of ulti. Charm is meant for situations where she can get away with telegraphing her approach when the enemy is left in a bad position. Don't be foolish and assume you should use it all the time. If you want the surprise factor, then you get a slow instead. God forbid. Even if she's worse than before in some areas she's also better in others. Accept the compromise unless you want her numbers to be bad because of way too much flexibility. The changes on PBE are a good direction.
Rebonack (NA)
: She would have made a great completely new champion release.
Aside from Karma and _maybe_ Galio (since they legitimately are different champions, including in theme), I don't understand why people say this. It's kind of missing the point of reworks. I'm calling it: when the new Eve is buffed (to the point where she is less reliant on proccing charm to do well) most people will be content with it. Passive, Q and E function similarly enough to old Eve with the new ulti being far more appropriate to an Assassin. Thematically, Eve was never intended to be a weird hybrid pseudo-tank... thing. The only gripe I have is the movement boost on E not being on W instead. I feel that would make her a bit smoother to play.
Rebonack (NA)
: She would have made a great completely new champion release.
Aside from Karma and _maybe_ Galio (since they legitimately are different champions, including in theme), I don't understand why people say this. It's kind of missing the point of reworks. I'm calling it: when the new Eve is buffed (to the point where she is less reliant on proccing charm to do well) most people will be content with it. Passive, Q and E function similarly enough to old Eve with the new ulti being far more appropriate to an Assassin. Thematically, Eve was never intended to be a weird hybrid pseudo-tank... thing. The only gripe I have is the movement boost on E not being on W instead. I feel that would make her a bit smoother to play.
Recuro (NA)
: To all of you complaining about how busted Ardent is...
It's because this community is easily manipulated and the placebo effect is always in full force. Everything that's 'popular' or widely used is "unhealthy". And the competitive scene enforces almost everything even if the community doesn't actually understand why/how it's powerful, especially if we're a couple patches ahead. It's not anything new really. Ardent is still strong but the levels of exaggeration are crazy. If you were to not build Ardent in favour of another item (like Locket or Redemption, Crucible etc...) then the power shift isn't that different considering you'd just be benefiting from something else (and it really comes down to how your ADC/team is snowballing. Ardent is a 'win more' item a lot of the time; doesn't immediately turn around a game like another item can/could. Ardent itself usually just allows your ADC/team to snowball harder than they already were -- otherwise it's not **that** powerful).
Deneviel (EUW)
: Oh looks like she have what it seems to be a long range blink ... TOTALLY UNEXPECTED
Doesn't look like it. She marks the ground that she's on, flashes and then hops back to said mark. So it's like a LB W but seemingly without the initial dash or damage.
Meddler (NA)
: Yep, likely just a bit of power for now and some mechanics changes next year. I think looking at some of her prior mechanics to see if any of them could be made to work well on her is worth a try. Wouldn't want to make any promises as to what we'd re-add, or even if we'd find we were able to re-add anything, but would definitely look into it. Which particular mechanics would you folks be most interested in seeing us at least experiment with?
I think that giving her two mantra charges again (but adding a 8-10 second internal CD each to Soulflare/Renewal/Defiance) would go a long way in making her feel like older Karma, while also creating some more meaningful/interesting choices on mantra usage (do you wait the 8-10 to cast an empowered spell twice, or combo two in succession for a big play? Which two spells to you empower?). Shield bomb I can take it or leave it since Sion and Ivern already have something similar. I hope you consider a charge system for Mantra though. It helps separate it from Heimer and Rengar as well. Maybe it would be cool for her to have a second charge at **level 6** to give her the power spike like other champs have.
: Janna needs a legit rework. New passive, new W, maybe some tweaks to Q and E. The issue is, so much power is loaded into her utility and base stats (Bonus speed, knockup time, shield duration), the items that grant her any kind of power that works off these abilities makes her a monster. With a new passive, they'd be able to siphon power from her other abilities and make them more on the level of other supports who build the same items. Then she could be properly balanced for all kinds of play, as her kit would statistically be more healthy.
I don't disagree that a new W and Passive would be good, especially since passive is now part of Coin. E could use some tweaking as well. It needs a lower duration (possibly in return for buffs to Q). It lasts way too long (goes for most shields TBH). If it only lasted for say, 2 seconds, it could even afford to be stronger considering it'll be harder to use. Q and Ult are defining abilities of Janna. Especially Q -- would be amazing if Janna had the ability to control it's trajectory while it's charging/firing (possibly even curve it). I'd even outright remove its damage entirely to give it more flexibility.
: I totally agree with you, but until there is a solution, shouldn't we buff her?
In low-risk ways only (anything other than buffing poke or shielding), I suppose so. The problem might be that solo-lane/tank Karma become a bit too strong depending on the changes. I think adding the grounding debuff to RW (on the tether) would be a cool way to buff support Karma but it may make tank Karma a bit obnoxious. Also base stat changes like movespeed or armor for instance. Might be the nudge support Karma would really like but otherwise...? It's risky. I think a healthy change would taking a first look at Mantra itself. Increase the base CD of mantra to 60/50/45/40 or something... but allow Karma to store 2 charges past level 6. Then 3 charges past level 16. Soulflare/Renewal/Defiance then have a 10 second cooldown each that is **not affected by CDR**. This means that you cannot use multiple charges to spam a particular empowered spell and is encouraged to eventually use all three. Other balance changes would likely need to come with that, but it's the direction I'd like to see.
: Janna suffers the same problems Karma does. Her kit is only good when there are items she can abuse. Janna is in the state she's in now because of items. Yet again, you are allowing a champion to be dictated by how strong a shield enhancing item is. You nerfed Karma for the very same reason and look at her playrate and winrate. I am afraid if you nerf anything about Janna she is going to be in the same state Karma is. New Enchanters and recently worked on Enchanters do a better job than Karma and Janna do. You want to know why? They offer something more unique in their kits than just one button being spammed. No champion should be dictated by how strong a shield enhancing item is or how strong their shield is. If any part of Janna is nerfed to the point that Karma was, she is going to be just as bad . . . if not worse than Karma. The fact of the matter is, Meddler, no team at Riot HQ can be bothered to offer any skill expression and uniqueness to Janna. Her kit is severely outdated and bland compared to the amount of time, effort, and creativity you put in reworks and new champions. What is so unique about Janna and creative about her? Lulu can use auto attacks and abilities off of shielded champions. Taric can use abilities off of shielded targets and is rewarded for doing it when he goes in and uses an auto attack. Rakhan has an entire kit that interactive, unique, and creative compared to Karma and Janna. Both Karma and Janna offer nothing new to the Enchanter role or the game. ---------- Janna has an amazing new lore and theme for you to play off of. The only thing you can come up with is allowing her to use abilities more with the same kit. Doesn't Karma already do that with a kit that is in the same exact spot? I can come up with so many new abilities and reworks of existing abilities with just the paragraph below. "She started small. Seafarers would sometimes spot a bright blue bird just before a healthy tailwind billowed their sails. Others could swear they'd hear a whistling in the air right before a storm, as if to warn them of its approach. As word of these benevolent omens spread, sightings of the bird grew more common. Some swore they had seen the bird transform into a woman. With tapered ears and flowing hair, this mysterious maiden was said to float above the water and direct the wind with a flick of her staff." You want to know what this game doesn't currently have in terms of a unique Enchanter? A zoning shielder. A champion that places a shield in a set place that allies have to run to. Doesn't Janna kind of already do that with her ULT? To receive a heal allies have to run to her and get it. I don't understand how you can say Janna needs work, when you are refusing to do nothing but the minimal amount of work. The same can be said of Karma. You refuse to do the type of work these champions actually need to make them healthier and add more skill expression, but you do the same type of work every year with the same result: a nerf.
Janna at least has a defined niche. That being the undisputed best peeler in the game. Even if there are no items for her to abuse, she will always been a situationally strong pick. Whether that be against an Amumu or Wukong or Leona etc... Janna has always been a relevant champion. As a support main I've always had a good reason to pick her from time to time. Her winrate has also always consistently been above 50% since like... season 1. Her shield is just the cherry on top -- it's strong but not the thing that defines her. It's her disengage. With Karma that's not the case. She's only relevant when her numbers are really strong. She's a walking Talisman/Locket past early game and can easily be replaced when her numbers are not strong.
: Hey Meddler, pls buff Karma, she is already struggling at 45% win rate and will even more after ardent nerf. Current thoughts on that?
She needs a soft-rework. Strong AoE shielding was/is the only thing that's unique about her or why she's good past early game (even Mantra shares identity with Heimer or Rengar). Then they nerfed it. She's not really weak or anything... (still has good laning) but she really doesn't stand out in anyway. Before, she was just generically good/strong to be used in competitive. Now that she's been toned down... what's her niche? They need to take a look at Karma and define her niche/unique elements. She needs to be more than a generic utility mage. Give me a good reason to use her beyond when/if her numbers are strong (which is not really the case anymore). Straight buffing her isn't the answer at this point. As a niche, making her reflect damage (so she's true to her name) could be a possible direction. I'd like to see 2 charges back on her mantra as well (but to add an internal CD to each empowered ability). Current Karma tends to only mantra one ability constantly (whichever is more relevant to the role she's playing). Decision making is hardly a factor at this point. Give her reasons to not spam one in particular. Mage Karma only really spams RQ. Tank Karma only spams RW (beyond laning). Support Karma only spams RE (again...beyond laning). This needs to change.
orrvaa (EUNE)
: > COOLDOWN 3 seconds > RECHARGE RATE 15 seconds (unchanged) from here http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-714-notes it mean after i use the ability i should have 3 sec until i have 1 charge and after that every 15 sec i should have one more charge, the bug is that it show 12 sec cd after the use and it fix only if you use bravado.
That's intended. The internal cooldown of Q is 3 seconds, but the charges are 15 secs. If you don't have a charge, then you can't use Q. Otherwise, in theory you could proc bravado _just_ after 3 seconds to gain 3 stacks in total and that would be unintended.
Raoul (EUW)
: Ah yeah, the 5 stacks, that even together have less base heal than the old version had. But hey, now you get % max HP so its all fine, no? Only problem is, you will only feel this changes mid to lategame, where your tiny teals barely matter anymore. When you manage to pull of awesome 250 HP heals, the ADCs already deal like 1k+ with a singel Auto. And lets not forget that the ability became even worse when behind. If your team isnt winning already and ypou cant just dash into fights and hit people, the cooldown of the heal now went up from 45 seconds to 75 seconds. For a crappy heal.
You're forgetting that: 1) The previous heal had such a huge cooldown to get to 3 stacks, even with Bravado procs. The new one only needs Q > AA AA > W/E > AA AA to get 4 stacks again. 2) Max health scaling instead of bonus health is huge. You're gaining 15 HP per stack off of base health later on, which certainly helps to make up for the loss in base healing per stack. This is 225 base heal at level ~13 or so with max stacks. Old heal was 180 base healing with a longer cooldown and high mana cost. 3) The cooldown to actually use the ability in the first place (regardless of stacks) is low enough to the point where you can permanently keep your passive up to lower your other CDs even more and dish out more damage. With rank 2 Q you can spam it indefinitely with decent healing. 4) Mana efficiency is better at higher ranks (combined with higher base MP5). 5) Rank 1 E is a lot better now, so you can level heal early with little sacrifice. The ability is possibly weaker at rank 1 but it's better for Bravado procs considering the non-existent cooldown. Just isn't mana efficient. The ability is better from rank 2 onward due to lack of any downtime for similar healing. You get rank 2 Q at level 3 or 4 at which point you can start piling on the sustain and have consistently huge AA strength in an all-in (keep mana levels high beforehand so you can spam to infinity when a fight breaks out... you'll win). It's extremely strong now overall. And considering the huge buff to rank 1 E... his early laning is much better now. He may even be viable top lane in some match-ups. Heal is ridiculous later on into the game. A cycle (with rank 4 Q) of Q > AA AA > W > AA AA > Q > AA AA etc... is bonkers.
: I think that Nami and Lulu are very unique champions and should be left alone. However I would love to see a rework of Karma, Sona, and even Janna.
They have unique kits/interactions yes. But in terms of what they are good at or what they provide to a team, they are not much different from others. Lulu is a good example of a generalist support. Her ult doesn't have much more power than a Karma RE. Q is a different variation of Karma's. Then she has a generic movespeed boost and shield. Her polymorph is the only unique thing she has. Nami has the slight niche of having really long range initiation. But then it's just a more widespread but less powerful version of Sona's ult when you think about it. Otherwise she's also quite generalist. It's less about how they play and more about **why** you would pick them. Outside of preference, they don't really offer much unique. They all poke heavily in lane and then are general utility bots later on. Janna on the other hand is the queen of team-wide peel. She totally has a definitive niche. Barely does any damage whatsoever and is completely dedicated to peel. That's why she doesn't need a rework -- she's unique is what she provides. Picking her is a big damage sacrifice and she has zero kill pressure in lane. She's very different from any other ranged support. Soraka is the same in that she's a dedicated healer and not much else. I could see Janna's W changing to something new as it's quite boring though. But her role is fine.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
DrDiaga (NA)
: Lol no. Put the worst champs against the other worst champs of course they seem viable. Put any of those bottom 50 against the top 50 and you'll see why they are so outclassed. Its super hilarious that when everyone is picking the worst champs they can, you lack the common sense to read that clearly.
No, the point is that the champions I see people picking in this mode are champions that I see all the time in ranked and are perfectly viable. Janna/Zilean/Eve/Ali/Noct? Seems popular in this mode but they're all fine champs. Let's face it, champions who are the "best" aren't_ that_ much better than other champs. As a whole, the roster is very balanced and no matter how balanced the game is, there's always going to be champions who are slightly better than others considering how the game is designed (this game isn't like Dota where the meta is defined by hard counterpicks that can help rotate nearly the whole roster). Karma being a top tier competitive support doesn't make all other supports _bad_ because she's typically picked over them (she's just reliable and a good flex pick). There's truly no bad bot lane supports as it stands. Zilean is probably the least picked/used overall but statistically he's pretty strong. At the very least, people seem to pretend that the game's balance was better in the past. Which is far from the truth since most people saying that are viewing the game's past in the memory of a less experienced player, with less understanding of the game's balance and when the game has a far less defined meta. Season 2? There was so many champions who were legitimately bad compared to now (Sejuani/Sion/Xin/Karma/Eve/Twitch/Kat/Mundo/GP/Heimer/Viktor/Fiora -- all of which are a lot stronger today after reworks/game overhauls). And the roster of champs were far smaller.
Rioter Comments
Rockman (NA)
: "As support" "I want less CDR" You don't know what you're saying.
By the time you want to buy Athene's you already have 30% CDR or more. Your logic doesn't work because pretty much every support item has CDR. Athene's having 20% means you're guaranteed to go way over the cap if you're building other items. That makes its slot efficiency bad lategame. If you build Athenes, then you have 35% CDR with your support item + runes/masteries. Maybe even 40% based on runes and such. That suddenly makes future support items waste CDR. OR if you already have 35+ CDR then Athenes feel like a waste. I'm often in that scenario when I'd feel like building it. But I'd be wasting stats. So I don't build it.
Rioter Comments
Quepha (NA)
: You find her fun to play She's viable in normal games without being overpowered She's viable in pro games without being pick/ban status And that means she needs a rework? Also I disagree with you that she doesn't bring anything special to the table. She has a uniquely large amount of power at level 1 for a mage and her RE is the only ability in the game that gives an AoE speed boost and shield to potentially her whole team, plus it's on a relatively low cooldown. That's a ton of skirmishing and teamfight power for her team that works really well in some team comps and not so great in others.
While a old vs. new Karma is done to death by now, I preferred the old simply because the design was a lot more interesting. The main reason why I find Karma "fun" currently is because she is overloaded. She's just 'balanced' because there is nothing stand-out that she brings aside from high raw numbers. And yes, she is becoming pick/ban status. And much less fun to watch because she isn't a playmaker. Nami has her Q and Ult. Thresh has hook plays. Sona ult etc... Most champions have _something_ game-changing. Karma is strong without having anything game-changing which speaks volumes about her design. Other champions have this issue as well, such as Udyr. But when he gets really strong it's easy to predict how it'll turn out. Karma will get nerfed and she'll become a non-entity again. I'd still play her because she's relaxing/chill to play, but her actual design has far too much potential for what it currently is.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Cassiopeia Twin Fang expectations
Less to do with her E but: I'd personally like to see Miasma become similar to Viktor's R in usage and effect -- a growing, controllable poison cloud. As it stands, Miasma's application and effect, in conjunction with its CD and CC makes it awkward to often apply and I can't see it melding well with poison focused gameplay. It's good for zoning sure, but I think this suggestions makes it more fun for both the player and opponent and also making it more effective overall. Plus, it may give Cassio more nuance/control over her kit as opposed to spamming E. Then E can viably be a catalyst for Q and W rather being the main source of her damage. But W needs looking into in order to support this.
delonix (NA)
: Well, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. As far as your actual ideas for changes go, I don't think they're really in-line with what Riot has been doing with the reworks. You should try to identify things like champion identity, iconic abilities, and strategic niche and focus on that when rebuilding champions. To be fair, it looks like you tried to figure out what made the champions unique, but couldn't come up with anything. To me, these four champions have some fairly unique mechanics in their kits. Karma starts with her R and uses it to empower her other abilities. Lulu has to choose whether to cast her abilities on allies or enemies. Sona has her auras. Nami is like the mirror of Janna; Nami uses heals instead of shields and Nami has engage tools instead of disengage tools. They also have decently well defined strategic niches. Karma and Sona have a lot of overlap here, as they are both strong poke supports in the early game who transition to teamfight utility supports. Lulu is basically _the_ "protect the puppy" support, although she often gets played in other lanes. Nami is a strong engage support, but plays much differently than the other engage supports like Leona and Thresh.
> [{quoted}](name=delonix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNPM24lZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-24T13:05:05.341+0000) > > Well, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. > > As far as your actual ideas for changes go, I don't think they're really in-line with what Riot has been doing with the reworks. You should try to identify things like champion identity, iconic abilities, and strategic niche and focus on that when rebuilding champions. To be fair, it looks like you tried to figure out what made the champions unique, but couldn't come up with anything. > > To me, these four champions have some fairly unique mechanics in their kits. Karma starts with her R and uses it to empower her other abilities. Lulu has to choose whether to cast her abilities on allies or enemies. Sona has her auras. Nami is like the mirror of Janna; Nami uses heals instead of shields and Nami has engage tools instead of disengage tools. > > They also have decently well defined strategic niches. Karma and Sona have a lot of overlap here, as they are both strong poke supports in the early game who transition to teamfight utility supports. Lulu is basically _the_ "protect the puppy" support, although she often gets played in other lanes. Nami is a strong engage support, but plays much differently than the other engage supports like Leona and Thresh. But my point still stands. There is not enough difference between them to really warrant choosing one over the other. Sona may have 'auras' but what does that mean exactly? It doesn't change what utility she has, just her way of applying it. Karma's Mantra? Sure that's unique in terms of how you play her, but the end result of what she does is no different. You're confusing thematics and gameplay with actual purposes and niches. ALL four champions have movement speed boosts. ALL have a slow. ALL have strong poke damage in lane. ALL have a singular hard CC. ALL have damage mitigation in the form of a shield. Except Nami. ALL have auto attack steroids (Karma's doesn't deal extra damage though, but reduces her mantra cooldown). All ranged. There is so much overlap here. I've been a support main for 4 years and I still have no real reason in draft to pick one of these champions over another **unless one is stronger balance-wise** (currently it's Sona IMO). And that last point is a massive issue. I have rarely even seem more than one of these champions commonly picked in competitive play. For example, when Karma was commonly picked in early 2014 the other three were never picked. Same for when the others are popular. > Lulu is basically _the_ "protect the puppy" support But going by-the-numbers, Karma's RE used twice over a teamfight gives more bulk to one person than Lulu's ult. Lulu's ult is 600 base. Karma is 410 base with a higher AP ratio, and she'll likely be able to use it twice. So Lulu doesn't even stand out at doing that.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Dunal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aol8poLM,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-28T13:20:14.854+0000) > > You're still absolutely confirming my point. Thanks. > > The point of any changes isn't to "buff" or "nerf" her, because that's a misguided point of view. The point is to create a unique identify for a champion rather than having Lulu 1.1. There has _never_ been a meta where both Karma and Lulu (or Nami and Sona for that matters) are used within the same space. > > She's balanced, but she has no defined role, she's a poke-y/shield-y bot. This is coming from someone who plays her the most and still finds her fun, but not because of her role on her team. I could simple play Sona or Lulu for the exact same thing. > > > The ADCs got changed quite a bit for the exact same reason. Should Graves not have been changed because was too similar to Lucian? Because that's exactly why he got changed. Not to "buff" him. > > But sure, just further confirm my suspicions with this community's logic. Everything is about the winrates. Obviously if she was underpowered after any changes they could just buff her... But obviously that logic just flies over most people's heads. yeah the suspicions of people not wanting their champion to be changed into something they are not. If the changes made sense in what She is supposed to be then sure but this doesn't do anything. This changes just scream "let's change karma into something else entirely because i don't like how she currently plays" and hide it behind the illusion of "let's give her a niche" BS. Once again thanks for giving us a kit that would only serve to destroy her and make her utterly pointless to play! GOOD JOB! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aol8poLM,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-28T13:31:07.499+0000) > > yeah the suspicions of people not wanting their champion to be changed into something they are not. If the changes made sense in what She is supposed to be then sure but this doesn't do anything. This changes just scream "let's change karma into something else entirely because i don't like how she currently plays" and hide it behind the illusion of "let's give her a niche" BS. Once again thanks for giving us a kit that would only serve to destroy her and make her utterly pointless to play! GOOD JOB! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} If you honestly believe that constant slow (and potentially CC) immunity, along with a point and click stun + AoE silence is "destroying" a champion then I no reason to believe that you would think the upcoming Taric rework will "destroy" him as well (and against popular opinion, he's actually a decent champ currently with a solid winrate). I like Karma but she's never going to be competitively viable unless her numbers are too strong, because she brings absolutely nothing that another champion cannot do. But well done for completely ignoring the point. It's not the actual changes I proposed that's important (it could well be anything to make her stand out and unique -- whether that by my proposed changes or a global CC that then forces the enemy to spam dance) but apparently keeping her with a fairly generic kit is good game design. There's a reason why they changed Old Karma too by the way. You do realize that the current Karma was hated for quite a while? I enjoy playing her but in terms of drafting and teamplay, my ranked team doesn't find many opportunities to want her. And cheers for the condensending emotes! You must be a joy to speak to.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dunal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aol8poLM,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-12-28T12:51:29.448+0000) > > Why does this community care about balance and numbers so much? > > Karma is balanced in her current state sure, but she has zero unique identity and doesn't really have any reason to be picked other than the sake of it. > > No wonder who everyone always complains about reworks when numbers or 'OP-ness' is all that matters... > > If she was underpowered after these changes then buff her, no s***. > > > **A support that provides constantly slow immunity is completely unique and solidifies a role.** > > > > "Oh noe! Ma winrate!" why does the community care about balance? because what is the point of playing a champion who is outright terrible? she does not need these changes. If you want a mage/support that deals with removing cc and whatnot then make one from scratch instead of completely crippling an existing champion
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aol8poLM,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-12-28T13:06:42.531+0000) > > why does the community care about balance? because what is the point of playing a champion who is outright terrible? she does not need these changes. If you want a mage/support that deals with removing cc and whatnot then make one from scratch instead of completely crippling an existing champion You're still absolutely confirming my point. Thanks. The point of any changes isn't to "buff" or "nerf" her, because that's a misguided point of view. The point is to create a unique identify for a champion rather than having Lulu 1.1. There has _never_ been a meta where both Karma and Lulu (or Nami and Sona for that matters) are used within the same space. She's balanced, but she has no defined role, she's a poke-y/shield-y bot. This is coming from someone who plays her the most and still finds her fun, but not because of her role on her team. I could simple play Sona or Lulu for the exact same thing. The ADCs got changed quite a bit for the exact same reason. Should Graves not have been changed because was too similar to Lucian? Because that's exactly why he got changed. Not to "buff" him. But sure, just further confirm my suspicions with this community's logic. Everything is about the winrates. Obviously if she was underpowered after any changes they could just buff her... But obviously that logic just flies over most people's heads.
: how to destroy karma! thanks OP! she wasn't garbage tier enough! let's make sure she is with these changes! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aol8poLM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-28T11:53:25.830+0000) > > how to destroy karma! > > thanks OP! she wasn't garbage tier enough! let's make sure she is with these changes! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} Why does this community care about balance and numbers so much? Karma is balanced in her current state sure, but she has zero unique identity and doesn't really have any reason to be picked other than the sake of it. No wonder who everyone always complains about reworks when numbers or 'OP-ness' is all that matters... If she was underpowered after these changes then buff her, no s***. **A support that provides constantly slow immunity is completely unique and solidifies a role.** "Oh noe! Ma winrate!"
: Can remove cc on allies with a 12 second cd at level 2? Black shield shields about the same, is only magic damage, PREVENTS cc, and has a longer cd. The Q change, I could see, but no no no to the other ones
> [{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aol8poLM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-28T10:05:11.014+0000) > > Can remove cc on allies with a 12 second cd at level 2? Black shield shields about the same, is only magic damage, PREVENTS cc, and has a longer cd. The Q change, I could see, but no no no to the other ones It removes slows, not all CC. Karma cannot also cast it on herself when hard CC'ed, making R+E cannot save herself. Making her prone to being focused. Morg does not have this issue. Someone like Leona could not give s s*** about it. Morgana prevents all CC. Renewal currently isn't very good so the change I proposed to it would make it good. Remember, to use it means giving up the other two spells.
Rioter Comments
hudzell (NA)
: View new R effects ;) Also, boom, physical damage. > Aatrox's basic attacks and cleave also inflict Mortal Wounds to the target for 3.5 seconds, empowering allied champion's basic attack damage to that target by 3% and shredding 3% of the target's bonus armor. This can stack up to 10 times, and allied champions can stack it after Aatrox has inflicted the first stack. The enemy is slowed by 1% for each stack of Mortal Wounds.
And with that, he could well be a very cool and unique champ who would certainly see more play! I'm just worried that Riot will just do minor changes to him going forward in an attempt to 'fix' him... But no amount of 'fixing' can give him a defined niche I feel. A support champ for people who want to feel like an actual fighter would be a great addition. Best thing you have at the moment is probably Leona? Who is a CC tank so yeah...
hudzell (NA)
: Thanks for the feedback! I've edited the ultimate to give it more utility (that would go great with runaan's!) and toned down the self-boosts and the damage.
Nice. I do think though that the ult (and everything Aatrox does) should also be physical damage in order to solidify Aatrox as your support pick when your team is purely lacking it. That's the kind of niche that would be good for him. It would also give him some extra counterplay in the form of building armor against his bot lane. On that not, adding an armor shred mechanic to him somewhere would really work. Add it to the E maybe and replacing the +% damage? Also, make it bonus armor shred because that's apparently cool these days (and doesn't punish squishies as much).
hudzell (NA)
: Aatrox rework, Team Sustain/Physical Damage support (idea from Dunal)
I like it! I do think the ult could do with being a bit more on the side of utility though. My idea was to make it like a controlled Taric ult. After using it. You can press either Q, W, or E for a damage aura, a movement aura, or a lifesteal/vamp respectively. Giving you three options overall. Otherwise the self bonuses (attack range, attack speed etc...) can still remain but toned down to the point of being too strong when solo. So that part can still remain.
hudzell (NA)
: I present to you... http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/ilvTqTl8-aatrox-rework-idea-team-sustainphysical-damage-support-idea-from-dunal
I like it! I do think the ult could do with being a bit more on the side of utility though. My idea was to make it like a controlled Taric ult. After using it. You can press either Q, W, or E for a damage aura, a movement aura, or a lifesteal/vamp respectively. Giving you three options overall. Otherise the self bonuses (attack range, attack speed etc...) can still remain but toned down to the point of being too strong when solo.
: I will give credit that you acknowledged that his kit would require an overhaul for this to happen. What I will say is my favorite part of Aatrox (Blood Price/Blood Thirst) would be really lackluster as a support because in order to heal from trades, he has to AA, which messes with the ADCs farming patterns.
They could keep that ability but just make the health transfer to a nearby ally instead. Would be interesting. When Aatrox is low on health he goes full Soraka mode so people are forced to focus him. But Aatrox has to be constantly attacking to keep in going, so it's far more fair than Soraka. Just throwing out ideas here. Otherwise, Aatrox can sustain himself through another means. Perhaps his ally proccing his E mark would heal Aatrox. Therefore poking can keep you sustained.
hudzell (NA)
: > rather than being quite possibly the most boring champion in the game Aatrox? Boring? What? I main him and the only reason I keep playing him is because he's fun as fuck if you're ahead. Get 2 kills early, have the knowledge on how to take advantage of them, and bam, you become this unstoppable god that the enemy team cannot ignore. He is IMO one of the most fun champs in the game.
That description could apply to most champions. 90% of fed champions are fun when you can demolish with them. I love destroying people as Karma mid but I would be completely fine with RIot making her a full support if it means she has a full identity rather than a confused one. She's a weird Nidalee/LeBlanc(Or Morg)/Lulu hybrid when you look at the purposes of her three different ults.
: I play this game for the gameplay, not the lore. And speaking of gameplay...Aatrox's kit is largely about winning AA trades and gapclosing on runners--if you can't understand how he fits into a duelist-niche with that in mind than you don't understand what a duelist is.
Errr.. what? Your initial statement implies you know I was talking about Lore. Then you go and mention that I don't know what a duelist is in context to gameplay? At least make your mind up what I was talking about.
: Yeah I agree let's completely piss off all the Aatrox players (however many there are) to shoehorn into some wonky kit just for the sake of lore. I love lore but honestly this idea is terrible.
With that logic why rework any champion ever? Aatrox's kit has as much interesting interaction as Taric. Should Taric not be reworked because he will piss of drunk people who play LoL? After all, they need someone to play viably. And of course, a rework without knowing the exact kit is "wonky"? Again, might as well not rework anything. Sion's rework was obviously a bust.
: Explain to me how any AD champ building stuff like Black Cleaver/FM could possibly do as little damage as support Leona. Makes no sense.
High AD ratios. Physical damage rather than magic damage. Needs allies to maximise his damage. Can WW ult as a standard ability (slightly lower duration and no damage though). Oh no, let's ignore the third point and say he's broken when building AD! Clearly that's the only possibility! And of course, that latter ability I proposed would totally be op in a solo lane. You could grab an enemy and... err... well that was fun.
: I play Aatrox. He's definitely underwhelming, but I take more offense to the fact that people rush a BotRK every game and build him like{{item:3153}}{{item:3124}}{{item:3091}}{{item:3072}}{{item:3026}}{{item:3006}}--and proceed to complain that he gets bursted down instantly in teamfights. He's a great duelist with a strong midgame, provided you build him properly and not like the On-Hit hypercarry people try to make him. I haven't tried Aatrox support but I'm gonna go on a limb and say it's a bad idea. Crappy peels, melee AA's, offers very little in the way of 'supporting your lanemate' compared to conventional one, predictable fight-initiation that leaves him vulnerable....reworking a duelist into a support for the hell of it, especially when they bear no semblance to a support to begin with, is stupid.
> reworking a duelist into a support for the hell of it, especially when they bear no semblance to a support to begin with, is stupid. ... You haven't read his lore have you? His whole concept is that shows up in wars randomly and inspires entire armies to gain victory over the influence of his power. He isn't a duelist whatsoever -- quite the opposite, only showing up in large scale war to turn the tide for the losing army. How is **THAT** not a support? A duellist implies 1v1 combat... that doesn't actually fit his concept whatsoever.
: Nautilus is not taken jungle for sake of him being an Awesome Jungle Pick He's got bad clears and is as blue-reliant as Amumu. People pick Nautilus for the teamfighting presence, thanks to his Ult and chase/peel potential, and is extremely underwhelming for the first half of the game.
I don't see what your point is (or pokemaster275's still)? How would an AD champ with Leona esque-damage be "broken" just because they'd some some semblance of AD scaling? What about supports that scale hugely off AP but aren't that amazing in a solo laner (Janna/Soraka/Nami) it's no different. We're a talking a support that would be good with something like old Zeke's, Frozen Mallet, Cleaver etc... And maybe a selfish purchase every now and again. There's a huge amount of ways to do it. Aatrox could fuel Bloodwell by taking and receiving damage. His can then right click on an ally like Zilean to heal them using his bloodwell. If a nearby ally dies then he can automatically revive them if his Bloodwell is full etc... How on earth would that be helpful in a solo lane? But give him mechnics that are reliant on other allies and problem solved. Just think a little. They did it with Morde (just not in a great way..)
: what he means is that AD supports would be going into other lanes and they would be dealin damage to the next degree
How is that any different from Lulu or Karma or Morgana also going mid/top? Or Nautilus going jungle? What's so bad about multiple viable roles? Chances are if Aatrox has gated by having mechanics that need allies around then he couldn't go to another lane anyway.
Show more

Dunal

Level 32 (EUW)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion