: > [{quoted}](name=Fefnil,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T11:50:03.036+0000) > > Safety is not the only thing you need when dealing with a 1v2. The main problem is being able to quickly freeze the lane to avoid being pushed under tower and eventually lose it, hence you need waveclear. > The only marksmen you can realistically bring on a 1v2 are Corki, Graves or, even better, Sivir, which are the only ones who have solo potential. Every other marksman is too much susceptible to being bullied and pushed. Everyone who mentions Corki, Graves, or Sivir as good ADCs for this strat always make me wonder if they've played Corki, Graves, or Sivir. These three champions are monstrously mana hungry and extremely short ranged and, unlike Ezreal, cannot viably spam their abilities to keep the wave pushed. :/ Sivir needs ER before she can get to that magical,"Spam all of my abilities" position and her short range after that means that once she runs out of mana, she will have to walk into AA range to clear the minions. Sure, she has a spell shield but its a very long CD and doesn't really give that much mana sustain. All of these ADCs are mana hungry asf and short ranged. I do feel like if you were going to do this strat, however, picking one of the utility based ADs that are useful regardless of CS or gold would work. It still doesn't make this strategy okay or good or comfortable for the player in question though. :/
Yes, I've played them, and I actually found out they have problem in keeping lane pushed, but on the other hand they have it really easy counterpushing. You don't need to chase the minions. They are way easier to get once they are stacked under tower, which is where the 1v2 really has its difficulty. Being pushed, bullied and dove under tower, that's where you lose. Not being able to efficiently hug tower. You only need to wait and cast a couple of spells every 30 seconds. The mastery that regens missing mana is actually surprisingly helpful in this matter.
: > [{quoted}](name=Fefnil,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T11:50:03.036+0000) > > Safety is not the only thing you need when dealing with a 1v2. The main problem is being able to quickly freeze the lane to avoid being pushed under tower and eventually lose it, hence you need waveclear. > The only marksmen you can realistically bring on a 1v2 are Corki, Graves or, even better, Sivir, which are the only ones who have solo potential. Every other marksman is too much susceptible to being bullied and pushed. Yes, however I don't think the choice was bad, especially since you don't know how this player was going to play this "support" pick. Also, Graves and Corki nowadays tend to be better in the Jungle and Mid Lane respectively, and Sivir lacks range on her auto attacks, meaning she will have to burn through a lot of mana early game throwing Q's to try and get CS.
You actually know it because he always says how he's going to play Nunu in selection phase. Regarding the other champions, it's because their niche doesn't collide with the current meta. But if the situation arises, like a 1v2 for example, they become the best pick. True, Sivir spends a lot of mana early, but she has a way to regain mana (E), also your strategy would be wait until minions come under your tower than kill them all with Q and W. If the enemy is not stupid they will try to freeze lane in the middle of the lane, but the extra exp will help compensate for some lost cs. Also, it's them who's playing against time, not you, because of the Nunu counterjungler: they can only win if push you and take your tower, if they stall they lose.
: > [{quoted}](name=Fefnil,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-21T11:32:36.913+0000) > > Ok, this is all fine and dandy, but seriously, why pick Ezreal in a 1v2 botlane? He has the waveclear of a Braum. I wonder why enemies get first tower at 4 minutes... It's because Ezreal is pretty safe with his range and his blink, and being forced to 1v2 Bot Lane means that he must almost certainly forfeit the turret anyway.
Safety is not the only thing you need when dealing with a 1v2. The main problem is being able to quickly freeze the lane to avoid being pushed under tower and eventually lose it, hence you need waveclear. The only marksmen you can realistically bring on a 1v2 are Corki, Graves or, even better, Sivir, which are the only ones who have solo potential. Every other marksman is too much susceptible to being bullied and pushed.
: Smite nunu supp - ADC Perspective
Ok, this is all fine and dandy, but seriously, why pick Ezreal in a 1v2 botlane? He has the waveclear of a Braum. I wonder why enemies get first tower at 4 minutes...
: Yes, hopefully Demacian event Demacian skins and for the love of God, J4 please
Riot: And for this next event, ladies and gentlemen, we present you a wonderful skin in theme with the lore: Demacian Lee Sin.
Kaeblen (NA)
: actually, it would take: 6 variables per champion .....greatest damage dealt to a single target in last 10 seconds .....target to whom i dealt that damage ,,,,,2nd greatest damage dealt to a single target in last 10 seconds ,,,,,target to whom i dealt that damage .....total damage i dealt to my most recent target .....target to whom i dealt that damage 2 timers (10 sec each) 1 function called on damage dealt-->some variable updates + 6 if statements .....is this the same as my last target? ........yes--> (update damage) "most recent total" greater than "2nd greatest"? ............yes--> (update damage) is "2nd greatest" greater than "greatest" ............no-->; ........no-->is this one of those other 2 targets i have saved ...etc 1 link to actual assist assignment. --- hmmm... objectively speaking, I suppose some computers would have trouble with that, but its not what I would call "complex code". Also, I'm not 100% sure, but I think these calculations are done server-side, rather than client-side. If they are done server-side, the only things slowing down your potato-tier are graphics and the number of in-out messages your network card is receiving.
Mmh... what? XD That's an... interestingly overcomplex system. Just put an on-damage hidden buff that lasts 10 seconds... Not really much more different than the other methods to determine assists, after all.
: This would make the game more snowbally. More assists= more gold. More gold = more snowball. I want it as much as you, but a tiny change like this will throw balance of whack.
Yes, but think about this. If I am a tank and I am in the snowballing team, it's very unlikely that I will die in a teamfight without getting assists, hell, it's very unlikely that I will even die because a snowballing tank is very close to unkillable. On the other hand, if I am the tank in the losing team, probably 3 spells are going to melt me. Maybe that sacrifice was the one that let my team win the teamfight, or maybe the lost but took some kills anyway, which I got no assists from, even though, if it wasn't for me eating their spells for my team, we would have lost. That's where this change helps more.
: Encourage supports to bait even more! Yes! On a side note tanks need good credit like this as well.
Tanks are supports, so they are of course included. But anyway, it's a general change, so everyone will benefit from it. But the tanks who mostly participate as meat shields will benefit from it way more than a mage randomly aoeing the tf.
: Then they should do that for everyone...
You did get that? I definitely meant for everyone of course. It's just the tanks with short range are the ones who will benefit more from this change, that's why I talked about supports in general.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=FlackGacket,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=00280001,timestamp=2017-03-19T18:14:07.132+0000) > > You read what he wrote write? They repeatedly ganked bottom, while the Nunu never came. You could have picked any adc, but if he cannot farm/stay safe under tower than it doesn't matter who you picked. You'll eventually have to use both summoners, and when you've been shoved out of lane you're officially boned. On a side note, Corki is garbage in bottom lane. > > This isn't some ez pz endeavor, for any player. Especially in Diamond where they can actually execute tower dives properly. If high elo/challenger players have said this "strat" is bullshit, then I'm more inclined to believe they're correct. He can definitely be reported for this. Actually pros, and high elo folk are more concerned of him deliberatly MANIPULATING riot and short-sighted dudes for his own needs to protect him. **This is no more a issue of breaking meta, or heck even communicating with allies**, he has now come to a point dicking with the whole community. This must stop.
That's a fair point, I agree with it.
: You read what he wrote write? They repeatedly ganked bottom, while the Nunu never came. You could have picked any adc, but if he cannot farm/stay safe under tower than it doesn't matter who you picked. You'll eventually have to use both summoners, and when you've been shoved out of lane you're officially boned. On a side note, Corki is garbage in bottom lane. This isn't some ez pz endeavor, for any player. Especially in Diamond where they can actually execute tower dives properly. If high elo/challenger players have said this "strat" is bullshit, then I'm more inclined to believe they're correct. He can definitely be reported for this.
Except some champions can safely stay and farm under tower. If you picked Sivir, you would have laughed at the enemy bot thinking they could push you and dive you undertower and then realize their entire wave is gone in an instant under your Q and W. And Sivir's passive, E and ult make her a very good champion for safe farming. Corki is garbage if you believe he is. Try putting him solo and farming not only gold but exp, and let's see who's garbage then, with 2 levels of difference. This strat being bs or not, he still reached Diamond by doing this. You don't reach Diamond if you play bad. No, one can't be reported for this reason even if true, for obvious logical reasons and for Riot explicitly asserting this.
: Well, there's 3 problems. 1. Tilting your teammates is bad. You know how you shouldn't yell at teammates because that just tilts them more and they end up doing worse? Well the same thing happened here. This guy basically abandoned his ADC to get 1v3ed the entire match while feeding 9 kills and getting zero kills or assists in the process. He was the definition of a boosted animal. I've seen better bad players in bronze. 2. Objectivity. Looking at his win rate, he's only winning 40% of his ranked matches when he goes nunu-not-support. Whatever he did to get him there isn't working anymore. I'm thinking what happens is he's abusing Ivern for freelo and then tanks his ratings with Nunu. 3. He gets the support role and then refuses to be a support at all while crapping on his teammates. While I'm for off-meta picks and behaviors, if you are screwing over the team in the process, there's a problem. He's doing this all the time and completely abandoning his teammates in the process and it's not working. Now if this guy were to pick Nunu, build an eye stone and occasionally counter jungle, that'd be a completely different thing.
I never defended his behavior. Still, as I said, you don't beat an idiot by being more idiot. If you think his "griefing" is bannable, then all the people who reported him and "griefed" his playstyle with poor champion picks should be bannable too, for the same reason. If the strategy doesn't work anymore because of meta, it's an entire different point. If it's true and he keeps doing that, then he eventually will fall in lower elo, and it's all part of the system. If you're weaker, you'll fall, if you're stronger, you'll climb, that's all.
: Yeah, Sivir would have been a good pick. Better yet, pick Soraka and then support mid. If enough players pull an open bot on him, he'll have to stop because he'll lose every game he does that.
I don't understand what the problem is. It isn't normal, where you play to have fun, it's ranked. And the ultimate (and only) objective of ranked is to prove your worth and demonstrate your skill to the world. In other words, to show off how good you are. There are not other reasons. If you believe otherwise, then simply a competitive game (in other words, a sport) is not for you. Now, you see someone who wants to play differently but is serious and believes he can do it? Fine, where's the problem. You really don't want to do it? You tell him. I despise one trick ponies, and if he refuses to accomodate a mutual agreement, well, he is not void of faults. But still, you don't beat an idiot by being more idiot than him. He thinks he can pull off a Nunu counter jungler? Good, I like people that believe in themselves. Every game of Lol is a new challenge, this is just another one on the list. It will just serve to demonstrate how good I am, showing how I can quickly adapt to various situations. Good for me. I do a stupid choice and pick a shitty champion for that situation or I don't play the best I could? Well then, it means I'm not prepared for the next elo. It certainly isn't Nunu's fault if I'm not a good player.
: I just played as AD to the Smite Support Nunu.
Mmh... so you had to go solo lane and you picked Caitlyn? I mean, ok, she's safe-ish with her range and all, but, her waveclear is not really the best. Why didn't you pick something like Corki or, even better, Sivir? You can't really play anything with a roaming support and expect it works. You need to play around a different strategy and go with it, not against it. That's why people stand for this guy. If you (adcs who get to botlane with him) first say ok but then lock a shitty pick for that strategy, then you simply have no right to report him.
: Making Lee's ultimate have a higher cool down would give him a window of weakness and introduce counterplay to him. Unfortunately, Riot doesn't like words "Lee" and "weakness", "tradeoff" or "counterplay" being mentioned in the same sentence so we aren't having it.
Mmh... "Every jungler champion has weaknesses, tradeoffs and counterplays so that Lee can exploit them and win"
: Damage Creep is a myth; however, there is a glaring problem with damage in this game..
I don't disagree, but I wanted to point out that you didn't truly understand an aspect: exaggerated snowballing and faster pacing are VERY different things. Sure, a more impactful snowballing often leads to shorter games, but there are things that could be implemented that not only make the pacing faster, but also weaken the power of snowballing. And you actually mentioned one of these things, but wrongfully listed as something for snowballing: ambient gold. When you increase the natural gold income (which is what Riot did) you obviously fasten the pacing, but also weaken the snowballing. Think about this: let's say the gold income is 100 per minute, and killing a champion nets you 500 gold. Let's say the game starts and after 1 minute I kill an enemy champion. The result is that now I have 600 gold, while the enemy has 100, which means I have 6 times his amount of gold. This is an example of a very snowballing situation. Let's say now that ambient gold gets increased to 10000 per minute. Again, game starts and after a minute I kill an enemy. Now I have 10500, while the enemy has 10000, which means I have 1.05 times his gold. As you can see, it's a pretty negligible amount. Killing an enemy didn't give me a meaningful direct increment of power (this doesn't mean killing is useless; you just removed an enemy for some time after all). But are there any other consequences? Of course. By multiplying the ambient gold by 100, you also get everyone buying all their items faster, which ultimately leads to an overall shorter duration of the game. As you can see, with this (exaggerated) change not only I did fasten the pacing, but I also softened the snowballing effect. So what you say is right: the problem is not the damage creep, it's the extreme snowballing thanks to all the new mechanics with extra gold and other things. But saying this was the only way to have shorter games is wrong: if Riot's goal was just having a faster pacing for competitive, than no, this was not the right way to do so. Increasing the snowballing is definitely an unhealthy way. Everything that involves increasing the punishment for mistakes is not good, it just creates frustration and leads to what we have now. The best way would be simply accelerating the game: don't increase the prize for objectives, increase everything. All around shorter cds, more mana and health regeneration to compensate, minion waves spawning time shortened, Baron spawn anticipated, etc. All the things that fasten the pacing for everyone equally, and not only for the ones who got a single moment of glory that doomed the entire game.
: Galio needs an ally to target and he can be easily interrupted before taking flight
Well, it's not like Sion doesn't have a slow start and can't be bodyblocked though.
: hes trash. even NB3 was paid off to say it looks good. despite going 4-3 going "oh my gosh look how busted this is" proceeds to take 40s to 2v1 a naut. and even built full ap >.> galiios dead, time to get over it. galio has absolutely no pick potential, he has no in lane ult, his abilities are too telegraphed, and his kit lacks even less synergy than the old kid. new E + W cant be used together forcing once again, an over reliance on flash. dont you dare say that abomination of a Q is good when it can only hit 3 minions or hes ham in the wave taking harassment from any ranged laner.
The fact that he took 40 s to kill a tank while full ap it speaks volumes about how off-build full ap is. It's like complaining that you can't kill Nautilus as full ap Malphite. Sion is telegraphed as much as Galio (they're rivals, after all) but one could argue if he's trash. E + W is not meant to be a usable combo, because otherwise it would be too good. As said in the OP, W must be used defensively, as anti-engage more than engage. You can easily E the enemy after you've taunted him, putting the Q down to do considerable damage. It actually synergizes pretty well instead. Q does his work well in waveclearing, you can easily kill the casters while taking care of the melees with the passive, while W passive nullifies any poke you would get from a mage. But anyway, this is not even the point of this thread. The point is that people fail to recognize the pattern that Galio's kit follows, and thus can't hand out a proper feedback.
: Make Way for Master Yi
My eyes burn... but it's the good kind of burn.
: When a champion got tons of health you get {{item:3153}} When a champion got tons of armor you get {{item:3035}} When a champion got tons of healing you get {{item:3123}} How many people buy {{item:3123}}? From what i see barely anyone buys it GW is unhealthy so whats next? Remove Armor and Magic Resistance?
{{champion:68}} What should I buy?
Rioter Comments
Ralanr (NA)
: Galio needs to target an ally though.
Exactly, because he bravely flies away from the enemy to protect this ally from hordes of minions.
Ralanr (NA)
: You know what's sad about Sion and Galio?
Also don't forget they both use their ults to bravely run away from the enemy.
: > [{quoted}](name=Fefnil,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UzGPRivA,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-03-09T00:14:02.867+0000) > And anyway, Warwick is healthy now That's pretty subjective i'd say Personally i'm not a fan of %dmg reduction
Damage reduction on a cooldown and with drawbacks is no different than Nocturne's spellshield or Pantheon's passive or Wukong's Invisibility. They all have the same purpose of shrugging some damage off, but it doesn't make a champion broken.
: Meddler said that his results for today's play was terrible. They will be further buffing him either in a hotfix or next patch
And this is good. I nevere said the rework was strong. I only said it was good.
: > Reworks are not meant for buffing or nerfing a champion So when a rework inadvertently buffs or nerfs a champion, don't people have a right to complain?
Yes, but they have to complain about the right thing. Aatrox new rework is weak, but is a successfull rework design wise? Perfect, now it's only a matter of numbers, so complain about those. Don't complain about mechanics that are needed to make him healthy.
: \>Drain Tank \>Good Design Pick one
They don't necessarily have to collide. If there's one thing that Riot and we all learned in all these years, is that stat checks are unhealthy. But they can work if they have windows of situational power. And anyway, Warwick is healthy now, and he's a drain tank.
Rioter Comments
Crett (NA)
: and a HIGH damage passive
Yeah, it's something like 500 aoe damage. This is actually not bad at all.
: Two things though. It's not permanant AND when it's off cooldown you're pretty useless. Yes I know it's a joke.
And you even get a better Kayle's ultimate!
Rioter Comments
Dextix LT (EUNE)
: Ummmm, they tell him to not do it.... Watch the videos....... And they have to dodge because of him? Great... Definetly not a hostage situation where 1 player holds other 4. And the level does not matter, players can adapt to situations. But leaving an adc to SOLO 1 vs 2 lane will cause him to lose. Adaptation has its limits, you can adapt to certain small things, not such huge changes. It is not strage in any way that an adc needs a support vs 2 other players.
I saw a good amount of videos, not all, and for most of them people resigned to his pick. Also, hostage? One person comes into the lobby, and presents a strategy that has a higher chance to succeed than the classic one (because he can do it properly and it's something unexpected, so for the other team is harder to adapt to it once already in game). As a D1 player, I expect the others to be able to recognize a good strategy and to adapt it, because, well, it's a considerably high elo so only good players should be here, unless other one trick ponies appear, but in the videos I never saw them so I don't know how he would respond to them. There are many adcs who focus on waveclear and can do well against 2 people, so yes, you could adapt to it if you want to commit to this new strategy (which you should do, considering it's better for the arguments I pointed before). Hell, people adapted to new situations bringing Ziggs instead of an adc, and he could go 1v2 anyway. If people can't see a new opportunity, say "well, yes, ok, let's play, let's see what you can do" but then do nothing to take advantage to it, and then report him for this, well, I can't see how they are right. It's the same situation as the memes where the adc goes ham feeding, the support tries his best to do his work, and the adc flames him and report him for "useless support". You can't expect a different strategy to work how it should if you do nothing to help it.
Dextix LT (EUNE)
: Have you watched the videos? The people DID NOT AGREE TO IT! But he still did it!
Saying "yeah, no, he goes nunu roaming, get ready for first tower" or keeping quiet equals agreeing. You either have to firmly tell him to "please play in the classic way because I can't play alone" and dodge if he still doesn't want to change. On the other hand, it's Diamond 1 level we are talking about. It's hardly credible that a D1 player can't play around a new shift and adapt to a new situation, so it would still be strange that a D1 player says "I can't play alone I need someone to babysit me".
Raoul (EUW)
: The Nunu Support player was NOT BANED because he played Nunu Support...
No, you don't understand. The point is not saying support and then not doing it. The point is that everytime he went Nunu support, he had previously explained in the lobby what he was going to do, and people AGREED to it. He explicitly said everytime that he was going to roam all the time and the adc would be alone, and they still agreed to it. That's why it isn't acceptable that they reported him even after they AGREED to his playstyle. So no, I don't agree with your argument, and it's still bullshit that he got banned for it.
Chetork (NA)
: When you are in a game that is an hour and 10 minutes long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2WH8mHJnhM
: How is it if we factor Draven's Q?
Ok, let's see. At level 10 Draven will most probably have Q at max level, so it adds 50 + 105% bonus AD, so it adds 123,5 with ER and 113 with YG. Now: Draven vs adc: Essence Reaver -> 199,67. Youmuu -> 184,25. Draven vs tank: Essence Reaver -> 173,07. Youmuu -> 139,33. Looks like that 20% increase from crit is still too good, even against squishies and if Q doesn't crit.
Départ (NA)
: Absolutely incorrect, go test it for yourself. Ghostblade will average more DPS on a one item spike at all times compared to ER, for just about every champion. Crit builds don't outshine lethality until 3-4 items, when the multiplier becomes much larger.
I like this, let's do the math: No runes, no masteries. 1 item only, so roughly level 10. Let's take Draven, with a base AD of 78,5, then let's take as targets a random adc with 51,1 armor and a random tanky champion with 55,1 armor. The tanky champion though has an armor item, so let's say +40, for a total of 95,1 armor. Youmuu against a lv 10 enemy gives 14,6 arpen. There we go: Draven vs adc: Essence Reaver -> 98,28, with a 20% critical rate which makes for an average of 117,94 per auto. Youmuu -> 101,47. Draven vs tank: Essence Reaver -> average of 91,34 per auto. Youmuu -> 76,73. So yeah, I'm sorry to say, but as first item, Essence Reaver is technically speaking a better item than Youmuu's against any type of enemy if you deal your damage with autos only.
RexSaur (NA)
: Season 7 in a nutshell
> - Unkillable Poppy with 1 armor item (colossus, tank's masteries in general, her shield, her w passive, ->she goes from 150 armor to 250 armor lul) What are you talking about? I actually see an unkillable Draven which shouldn't be because: A) He's a not-dueling adc at lv 11 trying to duel (only having Soraka keeping him alive) a fighter-build Poppy (which is a tank with a high dps and a good dueler, having way higher base stats by design) 2 levels higher. B) He only has 1 dueling item (PD), with no specific tank-shredding and no sustain item (only Warlord?), while Poppy had SV + 3 CPotions. The argue on this match is totally the opposite of what you're pointing out. Poppy should win 24/7 in a match like this. The fact that Draven was able to keep up is the real problem (and a result of last seasons balance choices).
Fefnil (EUW)
: When you realize that between every Nidalee and Singed...
And then posting the shittiest joke nets you more upvotes than everything you wrote in Gameplay and gives you a spot in the Hot section...
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Today we pay homage to the brave victims who fell during this weekend
I didn't remember Riven had so many abilities in her kit.
: > [{quoted}](name=Fefnil,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Fgvg7tp,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-04-10T16:50:00.101+0000) > > Exactly. Mana regen scales with time. The question is: how much time does it take to pay off? > With my calculations I showed that, without Doran's Rings or other items, only by themselves, 5 minutes are not enough. > I'm prone to think that most people don't stay for more than 5 minutes without recalling. > About manaless and energy champions, ok, but remember that their abilities are way weaker than yours, because they are resourceless. > About the mana, but that's exactly the point of the rework. If you had chalice, after you killed your opponent you would be oom, but if you have a larger manapool, this is unlikely to happen. > For example, I'm a Malzahar player, and I think he's a good example. He has a mana recovery mechanic, but that's because his spells have probably the higher mana costs in game. I'm a conservative player, and, as a rule of thumb, I always keep my mana over 75% of the bar. > Now, there comes an extended trade, I use Q and E, we battle, some time passes, my skills are up, the enemy is right where I want hi, I use Q, E, W, R... and I die, because I didn't have enough mana to cast R. That's because I had a chalice. > That's why I instead always go with flat mana. The point is not casting spells forever, it's casting spells when I need them. I want stay out in the open for more than 5 minutes, so it's ok. > If you rushed Morello, you probably wouldn't have even survived the battle in lane, because you would have gone oom earlier. That extra mana saved your life. Remember that. The points were just examples. I also disagree with the idea that manaless champions have weaker abilities because they are manaless - Riven and Zed are great examples of lane bullies (i.e. they have great damage on their abilities) who are also manaless. Trying to rephrase my overarching point though: Flat mana or mana regen, the item is equally strong either way if Riot is balancing to a mark of, let's go with the one you chose, 5 minutes. And that mark might be correct on average, which means that when you're recalling more often than every 5 minutes you're stronger and less than every 5 minutes you're weaker. The point I'm making is that if you're recalling more than every 5 minutes, that extra strength isn't going to be used. It doesn't matter that you can spam your spells, because if you're going to recall within 5 minutes you don't have the time out in lane to bully out your opponent (or kill them) and then continue to pressure a tower or another lane. In contrast, when you're out for more than 5 minutes, it's likely due to the fact that you're pressing an advantage. If you don't have an advantage to press, you would recall and buy (because having excess gold on you is wasteful, might as well get the stats out of it to help you fight later). Which causes the problem - flat mana is weaker when I'm trying to stay out longer, which is EVERY time I want to press an advantage that I EARNED. Basically, changing mana regen to flat mana hurts the risk-reward framework for mana users, because previously with mana regen it would be: Risk: Run out of mana before accomplishing your goal (e.g. kill or bully out of lane) and thereby get killed or bullied out instead Reward: Can regen mana after success and pressure tower or another lane Now it is: Risk: Run out of mana before accomplishing your goal (e.g. kill or bully out of lane) and thereby get killed or bullied out instead Reward: None, you have to recall because you're out of mana and can't pressure afterwards. Perhaps the risk is reduced because of your math (i.e. that flat mana is better than regen if you're not out for too long), but the reward is eliminated entirely (remember, kills don't win games - objectives do). If the non-mage mid can get a tower or dragon or pressure in another lane off of every successful risk he plays, but the mage can only get the direct success of the risk, then the mages are going to fall off. Given that overall mages are already weaker, it hurts them too much. Also a side point: Malzahar is one of the champions that these changes would really help. Any mage that builds RoA instead of Morello benefits from this. Malzahar's mana regen in his kit means that he's better off prioritizing a larger mana pool so he can put out a bunch of spells in a short time frame when necessary and farm his mana back up when the threat is averted. A mage that currently builds morello over RoA is hurt because Morello was nerfed. There's obviously a reason these champions tend to rush Morello over RoA, which is because they prefer mana regen over flat mana for the reasons I listed above. The champions that prefer flat mana have a different playstyle that allows them to get the already-strong RoA instead of Morello/chalice.
Yes, flat is worse after a certain point. For now, I think it's somewhere at 7 minutes. But the point is that this is exactly Riot's goal: avoiding endless sieges. Also, remember that mages mana costs were balanced towards the existence of mana regen. If they get cut out, there is a good probability that costs will be tweaked accordingly.
: For me the problem with meditation is you lose out on merciless. I think it will be better with the update, especially if most people go seraph's like I think they well. However if your champ needs the cdr, you may not opt for the mana management of seraph's.
Fair enough. Even without Meditation though you still have Doran's Ring, which scales better with flat mana. I don't think they will be forced to Seraph's, the Chapter is still better than Chalice and we still don't know how good is new Catalyst.
DrNova (NA)
: Recalling every 5 min on average first of all is bogus and a made up stat. You don't know what the average is. And flat Mana is just worse. Sometimes you need to cast more often to keep up with waveclear, or have a lane where you need to be aggressive because of enemy champ, or are getting g ganked a ton and using snares or stuns to survive. Teamfigjts can mean you burn a ton of Mana in one fight and then are forced to back because you can't capitalize and push wave. There is no way flat is better, your math doesn't account for the many varied situations that occur in actuality.
You usually stay out more or less than 5 minutes? Mana regen scales with time spent before recalling. More time = more payoff. What I meant with my calculations is not that 5 minutes is the average, I meant that 5 minutes, which is a reasonable amount of time, is not enough for regen to beat flat. At 5 minutes, you still would have better spent your money on mana than on regen. You think that flat mana is worse, but you can't be aggressive if you don't have the mana to cast spells. Numbers don't lie: 1 mana per second just means that in 1 minute you recover 60 mana. If after that time you have to recall anyway, simply buying 60 flat doesn't change anything, don't you think?
NaniI (NA)
: Until they make mages scale with mana, like ryze, flat mana is an extremely crap stat the longer the game goes on.
Only if you stay out. But on average you recall once every 5 minutes, unless you only build complete items without components. And in 5 minutes, as my op showed, mana regen doesn't pay off.
: I understand and to an extent agree with the math, but disagree that the laning period is 5 minutes. If you're out for longer, it becomes a larger and larger nerf. You're also including the mana from meditation, however not everyone takes 5 points in it (I often take 3 in executioner and 2 in meditation). I think the problem is this sort of scenario though: In lane you're playing a mana champion against a non-mana champion. You're at a disadvantage because of mana. You manage to outplay your opponent and poke them down consistently, but they're smart enough in the matchup to not let you kill them. Eventually, you're low on mana / out of mana and can't complete your combo to kill them. This is a frustrating feeling because you've managed to outplay them but due to you being resource constrained and them not, you can't punish them for letting you get lots of favorable trades. An more frustrating scenario is this: You're playing against a mana-less champion. You're aware of mana constraints and are playing accordingly. You've been forced to recall a couple times due to low mana, and since they're manaless they've roamed on your recalls. Despite your pings, your bot lane dies to the roams which gets your enemy ahead of you. Despite that, you're the better player, you outplay them and kill them 1v1 with your full combo. Not only that, but you did so with a lot of health leftover. You're thinking now is the perfect time to roam bot and get your bot lane back in to the game - only that your poke + kill combo has drained all of your mana so you can't roam after the kill, while your opponent could. I can't begin to count how many times this latter occurrence has happened to me. Where I want to roam after getting a kill or forcing a back when I have high health, but I also have low mana and can't. If I've rushed Morello in those games I can roam and will have regenerated enough for a rotation of spells by the time I get there. If I bought an early NLR I can't though. Replacing mana regen with flat mana will hurt these circumstances. The overarching point is that a lot of the time you need to take advantage of your missing opponent after successfully executing your combos for kills or forcing them to back. This relies heavily on being capable of staying out longer without having mana problems. While on average you'll have more mana from flat mana sources than from regen, you won't have the extra mana WHEN YOU NEED IT. Great, you got a kill, now force the turret / roam for a kill / do dragon. Oops, you can't, no mana and it won't be coming back (can't push the wave out, can't use your escape spell if the jungler comes to defend turret, can't do a rotation on bot lane, can't contribute much damage to dragon, etc...).
Exactly. Mana regen scales with time. The question is: how much time does it take to pay off? With my calculations I showed that, without Doran's Rings or other items, only by themselves, 5 minutes are not enough. I'm prone to think that most people don't stay for more than 5 minutes without recalling. About manaless and energy champions, ok, but remember that their abilities are way weaker than yours, because they are resourceless. About the mana, but that's exactly the point of the rework. If you had chalice, after you killed your opponent you would be oom, but if you have a larger manapool, this is unlikely to happen. For example, I'm a Malzahar player, and I think he's a good example. He has a mana recovery mechanic, but that's because his spells have probably the higher mana costs in game. I'm a conservative player, and, as a rule of thumb, I always keep my mana over 75% of the bar. Now, there comes an extended trade, I use Q and E, we battle, some time passes, my skills are up, the enemy is right where I want hi, I use Q, E, W, R... and I die, because I didn't have enough mana to cast R. That's because I had a chalice. That's why I instead always go with flat mana. The point is not casting spells forever, it's casting spells when I need them. I want stay out in the open for more than 5 minutes, so it's ok. If you rushed Morello, you probably wouldn't have even survived the battle in lane, because you would have gone oom earlier. That extra mana saved your life. Remember that.
Leetri (EUW)
: Back in my day, Kaiba summoned 3 Blue-Eyes in a single turn and we liked it. :P
And we all stared in wonder, wanting to know what kind of satanic black magic he did to do that.
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Fefnil

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