: But here's the thing. If mages want to itemize against you, it's easy as hell and doesn't put them back in the meantime. Seeker's Armguard, they get AP/Armor off that (a stupid amount of armor to boot). Your base Armor is already much higher than base MR. Now how is it fair that AD Champs would lose similar options (Hexdrinker) and effectively be forced to build a full negatron. It's not about not wanting to itemize about them, but the fact that it just puts behind someone who's entire purpose is the early and mid game. I've brought this point up several times. Magic Pen is too damn efficient because of how little base MR everyone has. The fact that a Sorc Shoes will eat up 1/2 of your base MR is ridiculous, forcing you to buy a null mantle, which brins it back to my point that it wastes the purpose of early-mid game champions that would have to itemize against you. Dropping from 30->12 MR increases the damage taken far more than 70 -> 55 for Lethality. If mages can just sit on an Oblivion Orb with Sorc Shoes, I don't understand why Hexdrinker needs to be nerfed. Mages aren't in a stop position: Boi, look at the goddamn stats. The top 6 spots are literally mages (Liss, Galio, Ahri, Kassadin, Malz, Cass on op.gg; Kass Neeko, Cass, Karthus, Ahri, Fizz on u.gg). Out of the entire S+ and S tier champs on mid lane, there's only 3 AD champions in 12 slots (u.gg). And before you pull winrates over tiers, understand that tiers encapsulates winrate and playrate, which is important for reducing skewed data caused by one tricks and lack of play. Ivern could have a 100% win rate in Challenger due to only being picked in like 1 game. FYI: I'm not an assassin player or a bruiser main. I'm just an objective bystander who can see what's killing me and isn't when I itemize shit.
I definetely agree with you, that Magic Penetration could be reworked in some way. It is Pretty strong to buy the flat magic pen build at the Moment and you Need it with most mages to be relevant, while it feels bad/unrewarding for adcs that are close to being one-shot. My Overall Point was that i actually think that a Negatron cloak actually is not really worse than hex drinker. You can buy it faster (/it's cheaper) and you even get a Little bit more MR. You ll miss the magic Shield of Course, but i feel like most times not the magic Shield is the important Thing, but the MR, which you get faster. So you can buy it better really early now, like just between the first 2 crit items (if you have a big Problem). I actually thought About that Option many times as adc and mid laner and it actually hurt me that (now already Long ago) it was removed out of Guardian angel and Banshees veil with their reworks. You just had Nothing useful to build it into (as carry). With that Change you would have that as adc. Of Course most of These Relations and Evaluations are Pretty subjective and it is understandable that you feel that adc weakened. Like i said i also agree with you that the magic flat pen build is a problematical Situation, that should be solved (although ist (imo) not one of the biggest issues LoL has atm). To the power state of mages: I remain here in my view, that mages are not strong atm, but that could be really wel discussed. Overall i would say it's Pretty subjective. Arguements like Champion.gg or similar statistics are difficult to evaluate: it is difficult to just take statistics for Statements, since there are many directions to interpretate. At the Moment (source:champion.gg) zilean mid has the highest win rate. I would say that this is Pretty clear not, because the champ is OP or something like that, but because there are a few good zilean one tricks, while he is played not very often (or a similar reason). That does not fit to your examples, but if you look for irelia for example, she has a 45% win rate. Thats bad, but i still think that irelia is still a Pretty broken champ, that is a bit too strong. Seems like just many Players Play her without being able to execute her mechanically. If you look at the Play rate, yasuo and zed are played really often (atm 6% Play rate), while xerath has a playrate of 1,8%. Yasuo and zed have a bad win rate, xerath a good. Of Course you can say that zed and yasuo are in a weak spot and xerath in a strong, I would say, that xerath is mostly played by one-trick-Ponys or Xerath-mains that are able to get almost as much out of that champ as you can (a bit exaggerated), while zed and yasuo are played by many Players that do not Play them often enough to get as much out of the champ as they could. These are all interpretations we probably could discuss About, but thats the Point. It is difficult to find clear indications and i also look at some numbers and statistic i find, but i found Nothing, that indicated clear enough to me, that mages in General are in a strong spot Right now (there are surely a few strong mage Champs like kassadin, but that is due to the very specific Champs, that may be overtuned). PS: There may be also different opinions About that, but when i Play mages at the Moment, it Always feels like a Major setback, if i have to buy seekers armguard to protect myself and like i see it in missing Damage. (But again only my opinion/Feelings) Edit: I talked About win rates there mostly, which you showed already to be an unsecure indicator, but i mean that the same Problems are existing if you look at other indicators, like the Tier list you mentioned. (Not sure which you mean exactly, i know a few Tier lists for high elo/competetive Play, where irelia is on one of the top spots, who is not a mage. Of Course you can argue that its in low elo different, but i think tier lists in low elo are difficult to state and mostly defined by Champion design, not by meta.)
: Mages are strong at the moment. **RIOT, STOP WITH THE EMPHASIS ON MAGES.** If mages can sit on an Oblivion Orb for the Magic Pen, why can't AD champs have something similar for a DEFENSIVE purpose. Every champion already has 1/2 the base MR as Armor, AP items have more AP per item than AD items, and there's already a severe shortage of MR Items that aren't super situational. Edge of Night already lost its MR component. Mages generally have better wave clear, decent range for laning, and AOE in later fights. Luden gives them a one item power spike and makes it basically needless to worry about mana management, while a ton of AP items are just health stacking ones now, meaning that mages are pretty tanky in terms of health. They might not have as reliable AAs as AD champs do, but that's moot with all of these benefits. Edit: Jesus this post is controversial as shit. 33 Upvote, 33 Downvote.
Besides other opportunities, you can just buy a Negatron cloak now and build it later into Maw. That actually should help much more against the classic flat magic pen build in most cases, while you have the Chance to say: "They have only magical burst that kills me", Like a Syndra R and then u get hexdrinker, because then the Shield is the decisive element in a Team (or smaller) fight. Edit: By the way i do not think that mages are in a really strong Position Right now, because there are several weaknesses/arguements against the Advantages of the mages you spoke of. But that is something that surely can be well discussed and where i even might be wrong. :)
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations
Just my opinions: First of all I do not know which idea of Infinity Edge i like more. The second one would bring new opportunites, but also many dangers. But i do know that (in my opinion) it is best if the third crit-item still gives at least 30% crit. I do like the decision between a third crit-item, which gives more dps, but has clear vulnerabilites with lacking life and self protection. This choice feels really rewarding, in both directions, if it is balanced. But i think if the 3rd crit-item would give only 25% crit, it would be a bit too weak for that and Building a 3rd crit-item would be a too bad decision in most games. Next: I do not like the shown hexdrinker Change. Because i feel like the identity of hexdrinker is not just the magic Shield, it isone of the few possible items against the flat magic pen build of mages. You Need a bit MR to work against it, but there are really few possibilities for ADCs to build MR into a useful item. (QSS is another Option, but it does not feel Right, if u have to buy it in a game without any cc an item like QSS/Mercurial, that is that much defined over ist then useless passive.) I also do not like the Phantom dancer Change. I really like the identity of the item as it is now, as an item for close range adcs, that want to be able to 1v1 enemies, while i do not think it would make my game experience better to buy such a reworked Phantom dancer, although i would probably, because it seems strong for an adc, but without any mechanics that give a stronger identity than "I will buy it most time, because i survive better with it". Such an item with a General saving Shield, would be too strong on adcs to ignore (there is reason, why steraks had to be changed to "melee only"), but like i said for me probably not an item that feels good. I never really liked Stormrazor, but i think i would prefer the 2nd Option for him, since it (in my opinion) should be an item for more than just Crit-adcs and this Change would give the interesting opportunity to have a Kind of "neutral item" with just that Auto dmg effect, that can be taken in trade of other Things. So that it may be buyable even for a zed in a tank matchup (although questionable) or similar Things, but also for adcs, that want faster dmg without any crit-synergie. On Essence Reaver: I really liked the System of the old essence reaver, with ist crit synergie and the clear trade off of a bit Damage against more CDR and Mana. I do not like the new essence reaver with ist Flare, but it has ist identity and buyers. But i do think, that this Change would nerf essence reaver Pretty much and therefor it would be even more a niche item than it is now. Therefor i think that this Change would not help in a good way, but make it a really rare seen item. So i do not like it, but i must also admit that i have no idea, how I could make it better, since i dont feel the essence reaver Right now is on a good, "finished" state. To Maw: I first wrote to hexdrinker Change: _I do not like the shown hexdrinker Change. Because i feel like the identity of hexdrinker is not just the magic Shield, it isone of the few possible items against the flat magic pen build of mages. You Need a bit MR to work against it, but there are really few possibilities for ADCs to build MR into a useful item. (QSS is another Option, but it does not feel Right, if u have to buy it in a game without any cc an item like QSS/Mercurial, that is that much defined over ist then useless passive.) _ I just want to Keep it somewhere in my post, because ist part of my thoughts, but regarding to the whole Maw-change, i have to say: "That seems Pretty good." Hexdrinker is more defined through ist abtice, while you have the opportunity to just buy a Negatron cloak vs flat magic pen and still build it into Maw. That gives a better decision between whether you want MR against flat magic pen or you want to survive magic burst like a Syndra R. Only Thing i would Change is the stop watch in the hex drinker, because i never liked stop watches much. I like the idea to pay for a one times stasis effect, but if it is integrated in too many items that item identity is lost. Everyojne then just can run around with a stop watch and also you can make great Plays with it, it feels extremely bad and unrewarding for the enemies if this effect ist just everywhere, especially, because it often feels like u yourself do not have any counterplay against stop watch. If the enemy just times his stop watch well, you have no Chance to hit any spells or take him out in Team fight. That is ok, if u pay 600 Gold (or a bit less with selling) for it or if a mage builds a whole zhonyas just for that, but it is not good, if everyone just has it one the way to one of his items to freely use (in my opinion). Hope some People (Maybe also Rioters) look at that and agree or at least understand my opinions.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: >Yeah, that was basically the main point. Stopwatch just doesn't feel fun to fight against at all. You know what's funny? When people actually wanted Zhonya's effect to be spread out to more classes and not just mages so Riot makes it in a form of a mastery (one time activation, doesn't build into anything other then Zhonya's), everyone takes it and then Riot gets the flack for spreading it out to multiple classes, which was originally our idea in the first place.
Not sure who had that idea first, but i did not hear it from Players. And all that I can say is that I didnt have the Idea. :D But not important who had the idea, the changes that can be made lie in the future and some that had the idea may think now it was just a misstake, which is ok. So for the future they can just plead to remove it again. I personally do not like it that much and hope that it at least does not get spread that much. (Because ist really annoying if ist too many times in the game.

Finnestus

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