: > [{quoted}](name=Kelg,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=17fpOPh5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-05T15:24:32.174+0000) > > Will we see Ap bruiser items any times soon? I've been waiting forever for these. {{item:3151}} {{item:3116}} the only options and are somewhat boring, and offer little tankiness. We need something like {{item:3053}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3071}} for AP bruisers such as {{champion:82}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:517}} . Any plans for them? swain aint a bruiser mate
He's a lot more bruiser than vlad is at least, and vlad abuses the hell out of any defensive AP item and swain has all the qualities that bruisers have, outside of being ranged.
FafliX (EUW)
: I think this is exactly what Renekton needs to be honest. I don't mind of they nerf him elsewhere to compensate. Right now his matchups against people with shields, especially tanks, are absolutely horrendous, because he has next to no DpS, just burst. If someone like a Sion just presses W, Renekton can barely break that, and then does minimal damage to his actual HP. Something like this is plain unfun. His entire early game relies on shorts burst trades, but anyone with a shield can simply press a button to almost entirely negate his shorts trades. He is a "lane bully" that can't really win lanes against anyone who is remotely tanky or has shields to trade with. Sion: He presses W and charges Q on the wave. By the time his W run out he cleared the entire wave, and you can't trade im in a full wave. If you try to trade him while his W is up, you barely get through the shield, and he just presses E auto on you and the trade is even. He chugs a potion and is full again. You loose to a scaling tank. Another example would be Camille: You can't really trade against her at all, because of her passive shield. If you try to W her, she simply AAs you for the shield during the animation, and you loose the trade, cause your W goes into the shield. If you don't W her instantly, she just backs off with her Q MS or E. And that is how it goes in most matchups with shields. You can never power through it. Meanwhile most other toplaners, even ones supposedly weak in lane, can just all in even through shields starting lv 6 or so. According to major stat sites, he is either really bad (champio.gg) or very average (op.gg). I don't feel like giving him some more flavor and changing up his matchups to be less binary is a bad thing.
Actually wrong, I'm a renekton main and champions with shieldings aren't the biggest problem, they ahve counterplay, compared to poke champions. Renekton struggles in the mobility department, not in the outplay-shields department. Give him other buffs, not shield-breaking buffs.
: renekton drops off hard and loses to any poke champ, he needs help
Wrong help though, Renekton doesn't actually stuggle the most vs shielding champions as poke champions aren't shielding champions. ......
: Small Diana Gameplay changes coming to PBE
Hiii, I'm not a diana main or even play her anymore (used to but it's just not worth it to me), but I still think I can chip in a bit. - One-shot potential: Removing the R-Q combo sounds horrible. I'm not very fond of removing mechanics in a champion that's otherwise very linear and it's good enough to just increase the timer on the reset. If you really want to remove her oneshot potential, I would argue for reducing some of her W and R damage, in favor of lower cooldowns on the W and E. - I'm for shifting the W power budget anyways. Push the damage per orb down to 20/30/40/50/60 (+20%) and change the cooldown to 10/9.5/9/8.5/8. - Spell weaving: Changing up the passive to remove the attack speed is good as is putting it on her base, I also really like the movement speed. I'd argue that 0.725 is a bit high if it's all base. I would still keep some power in E-leveling though and a cooldown reduction there is a start. Possible keep a small attack speed scaling on it (either passive or on use). - Mana: I must say, it's really weird to see her Q have a lower mana cost than her E and I'm not even sure why. If you remove the mana from the passive, at least reduce her E cost to something like 30-40. It doesn't make sense at all to pay 70 mana for a non-damage ability that doesn't even CC much.
Raxul (EUW)
: Renekton is pretty good atm, wym. Once you get shoji you can 1vs3
You mean renekton is so reliant on spear currently that without it he is garbage? Don't get me wrong, I love the item, and I love that they fixed his bugs. But he's not even an early game champ anymore (more mid -> lategame)
: fiora's biggest problem is his ult is not garanteed and the parry is not garenteed, the guaranteed attack speed slow is shit in late game the ultamate hard to finish when playing behind, under tower cause they can easily move to the wall and thats an easy out play
> fiora's biggest problem is his ult is not garanteed and the parry is not garenteed, Good fucking thing it's not. Do you know how powerful fiora's R is? lol
: I want to see your stats, go play fiora in rank flex. Lets see how much you struggle!
: https://u.gg/lol/champions/fiora/runes u.gg is better than lolalytics 49% winrate with 6% pick rate compare to conquror 65% pick rate Fiora cant use klepto like how ezreal and viktor abuses klepto. And u cant use klepto against jayce, kenen, gnar. There is so many match up that getting klepto on fiora is a bad choice. Hashinshin, tyler1, tfblade... they all use u.gg
> u.gg is better than lolalytics Because? U'r cherrypicking. > Hashinshin, tyler1, tfblade... they all use u.gg So it's better statwise? > Ohh, and you didn't actually fucking named any of the listed champions and tell me if they deserve nerfs. Hello? Can you actually answer this? I tried to explain my point but u just keep throwing meaningless numbers around
: 46.92 percent right now https://u.gg/lol/champions/fiora/build/ So you said fiora is good, its just the meta right? So how long are people going keep saying that? 1 month, 3 month, 5 month, 1 year... Fiora started to be in a shit state when riot wanted faster games, less traped games.
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Fiora/Top/ Nice fucking cherrypicking. I see a 48.20% winrate.... A 50.2% winrate if fiora goes klepto instead of conqueror. Also worth noting that resolve secondary is worse than sorcery or inspiration secondary. ........ Ohh, and you didn't actually fucking named any of the listed champions and tell me if they deserve nerfs. Ur worse than a riven main at this point.
: the numbers are showing fiora is underperforming and you are saying fiora is fine do you have any stats/proof to prove your points after 1 month her play rate droped by half
The way you are interpreting the numbers is saying she is underperforming. That's different from factual underperformance. If I look at the matchups, it's mainly her shitty matchups that are currently out of line (same with renekton for example), but she has a healthy amount of positive matchups still. So let's play a game. I name 10 champions she has a horrible winrate vs and I think are out of line and you tell me wether you think they should get nerfs or not. Kayle, Kennen, Urgot, Hecarim (top), Pantheon (top), Vayne (top), Jax, Riven, Vlad, Nasus Most of these are even seen quite commonly, outside of vayne and pantheon. Considering Fiora top has about a 50k games played on lolalytics in plat+, even nerfing just riven, kayle and urgot winrates affects 20% of her games. Nerfing the other 7 as well affects around 40% of her games. That's a fucking lot. Would we look at global counter's it becomes even worse, with zed, draven and vi being some very popular and good picks. I'm not just talking out of my ass you know, she is still sitting at a 48.20% winrate and that's not out of line, considering she has so many rampant bad matchups.
Slaking (EUW)
: Nerfing Aftershock abusers that aren't meant to use Aftershock is a much better strat than just nerfing Aftershock for the tanks that are actually supposed to use it, especially when most tanks are pretty shit right now. It's much easier to nerf 2 champs misusing Aftershock than nerf Aftershock because of them and then have to worry about potentially adjusting at least 10 who weren't strong to begin with. Nerfing Aftershock because of Liss and Sylas is like a teacher giving the entire class a detention because 2 kids kept fucking about when the rest weren't.
Or maybe change aftershock a bit so that it's less abusable and better on tanks, as it's not just liss and sylas who can abuse it. Before the CD got changed it was also a rune for riven, renekton and other CC fighters, instead of being mostly a tank rune. The fact it just gives flat resistances and barely any scaling off of tank stats is pretty silly. (grasp scales better off of tank stats than aftershock, and also doesn't have the problem of being better on champs that are actually getting focussed down)
: Op.gg lets see jax's winrate overtime _**lets see fiora's winrate over time**_ 0-25 min: 51% _**0-25 min: 44.05%**_ 25-30 min: 52.22% _**25-30 min: 46.69%**_ 30-35 min: 52.73% _**30-35 min: 47.9%**_ 35-40 min: 51.52% _**35-40 min: 47.14%**_ 40 + min: 55.61% _**40 min+: 51.61 %**_ If fiora supposed to be only a late game carry, then why does she only have a 51.61 percent winrate compare to jax 55.61%.
Imagine jax and riven needing a nerf instead of fiora needing a buff.... Fiora is actually getting played quite a bit for how weak she is and she is in fact a hard champion. That on top of the stupid ass ranged bullies up top don't help fiora much either. I think fiora is fine
shofaz (NA)
: Hey meddler what do you think of Swain and Viktor right now? They both seem in an OK spot but could afford to have a littl more power to them. There is a pretext for this. In the past, when Lucian and Khazix were both OK-good you guys buffed them to make them good-god tier a while back. When a champion is at an OK state, what makes you guys decide to buff them, despite technically not needing one. Is it to make things interesting or shift the meta? Or perhaps because they have a high play rate? I am genuinely curious on what makes you guys buff some champions over others even if they are in an OK spot. But yeah in addition to that what do you think of Swain and Viktor right now and champs in a similar spot who are OK.
Wouldn't mind seeing buffs to them, but not in base damages. Both have an extreme high risk of being (klepto) toplane bullies and that's not a healthy place for them. However, I also think it's a general midlane and item trend that is holding them back and not so much their raw power, so maybe they should do an update on items like RoA and GLP.
Kazekiba (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=FlashDoubleDash,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6lzjce20,comment-id=0039,timestamp=2019-03-27T16:41:59.484+0000) > > On the point of aftershock: > > The current problem (imo) is that it adds too much survivability to anyone who isn't ment to survive long. Comparing tanks to relatively fragile characters, the latter will get a much more efficient use out of aftershock because they can normally be focussed down whereas tanks don't. > > I would argue it's worth to change how aftershock grants survivability (like removing part of the flat resistances for %bonus resist scaling, or a partial shield similar to but less powerful than CotC, so that it makes shield bash a better rune for less shield-heavy tanks), as well as moving some of it's defensive power into it's offensive power (this makes trades feel less useless into aftershock for sustain-heavier matchups). > > Something like: > Resistances from 70-120 to 20-50 resist + 50% bonus resistance for defense > Damage from 10-120 + 3% max hp + 15% bAD + 10% AP -> 40-120 + 7.5% bonus HP > > Possibly interesting to increase the cooldown to say 60 seconds and make it akin to Arcane comet where every time you apply CC, the cooldown goes down, so that heavy CC tanks (like nautilus) are better with it than single CC divers (like pantheon). > > --- > > Also, smaller note as a Renekton main: The bugfixes and returning cancels were nice a thanks for that. As a follow-up, will the seemingly mandatory-ness of Spear of Shojin (in terms of carry-potential) be adressed in favor of maybe some early game power. It feels weird that Renekton suddenly became more of a lategame threat than an early game bully. In fact, there's very few lanes that we can actively bully these days, especially with ranged champions abusing kleptomancy, dealing damage while also becoming extremely tanky and safe. Especially a lower E cooldown would be nice to have since it's extremely long compared to most mobility skills these days. I would love for Aftershock to get a tiny shield on it, although taking Shield Bash over Demolish on {{champion:89}} is not something i'd ever likely do anyway.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind that either but as Riot mentioned when they implemented aftershock instead of a version of CotC was that they didn't think shields were a great direction, as it makes trading into it feel a lot less useful, but what I can see is that part of the damage is tied to the shield where the shield is just based on a flat number (so that it's always somewhat easy to break regardless of hp, but you're still focussing a tank). The advantage of a shield is that it naturally scales with resistances anyways and it gives an extra balance lever.
Galiö (NA)
: That dmg CAN be insane but other than that I actually think (while not perfect) that's a more interesting idea to have benefit for cc stackers. And benefit those who build defenses more in a way.
Yeah that damage can be quite high (if we assume a tank get's to 5k hp, that's 3k bonus hp so about 225+120 = 345 damage lategame), but I honestly think that's a decent reward for a keystone at lvl 18. Many deal more damage anyways (esp conqueror or pta). > And benefit those who build defenses more in a way. Yeah I'd like to see this be the main reward of the keystone, so I think higher scaling off of both resist and hp is a good thing. It allows the less optimal users to still get benefit out of it, while being a lot more rewarding on tanks, especially as tanks have lower mobility, and are lower priority target, so they are naturally going to get less out of aftershock if it just gave exactly the same amount of efficiency to tanks and mages/divers.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 27
On the point of aftershock: The current problem (imo) is that it adds too much survivability to anyone who isn't ment to survive long. Comparing tanks to relatively fragile characters, the latter will get a much more efficient use out of aftershock because they can normally be focussed down whereas tanks don't. I would argue it's worth to change how aftershock grants survivability (like removing part of the flat resistances for %bonus resist scaling, or a partial shield similar to but less powerful than CotC, so that it makes shield bash a better rune for less shield-heavy tanks), as well as moving some of it's defensive power into it's offensive power (this makes trades feel less useless into aftershock for sustain-heavier matchups). Something like: Resistances from 70-120 to 20-50 resist + 50% bonus resistance for defense Damage from 10-120 + 3% max hp + 15% bAD + 10% AP -> 40-120 + 7.5% bonus HP Possibly interesting to increase the cooldown to say 60 seconds and make it akin to Arcane comet where every time you apply CC, the cooldown goes down, so that heavy CC tanks (like nautilus) are better with it than single CC divers (like pantheon). --- Also, smaller note as a Renekton main: The bugfixes and returning cancels were nice a thanks for that. As a follow-up, will the seemingly mandatory-ness of Spear of Shojin (in terms of carry-potential) be adressed in favor of maybe some early game power. It feels weird that Renekton suddenly became more of a lategame threat than an early game bully. In fact, there's very few lanes that we can actively bully these days, especially with ranged champions abusing kleptomancy, dealing damage while also becoming extremely tanky and safe. Especially a lower E cooldown would be nice to have since it's extremely long compared to most mobility skills these days.
: jarvan iv needs up date
J4 is lowkey overpowered (even in toplane), if he needs work it's not in his numbers, but rather in his outdatedness. He could use some lower base damage/shielding in favor of some better ratio's/cooldowns to further seperate his tank and ad build, or he could use an updated passive and way to cast his R (maybe changing point and click to location targeted cataclysm in favor of some power to it). I like the AP ratio on his standard though and wouldn't mind seeing an AP ratio for the attack speed and his shield as well (wouldn't be much power budget but actually open up a more AP playstyle)
: At this point I've given up on Sion bug fixes, so I'm just gonna expect nothing, at least this way I won't be disappointed, right? _Right?_
Don't touch pandora's box. Renekton got a bug fixed, now he's unplayable.
: Do you want garen to be more balanced on low elo with a weak early game, but stronger on higher elo!? look at this riot please....... look at those changes {{champion:86}} Health changed from 616.28 (+ 84.25) to 615 (+ 85). Attack Damage increased from 66 (+ 4.5) to 68 (+ 5) Armor increased from 36 (+ 3) to 36 (+ 4) Perseverance Perseverance Regeneration changed from 2 / 8 (based on level)% of maximum health per 5 seconds to 4% of maximum health per 5 seconds. Decisive Strike Decisive Strike Cooldown changed from 8 seconds to 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 seconds. Movement speed duration increased from 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 to 3.5 Silence duration changed from 1.5 at all ranks to 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 Bonus physical damage changed from 30 / 65 / 100 / 135 / 170 (+ 40% AD) to 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 (+ 10 / 25 / 40 / 55 / 70% AD) Fixed a bug where Kircheis Shard item Energized effects wouldn't apply correctly. Courage Courage Passive resistances removed New Passive: Garen reduces incoming physical and magic damage by 15% from champions outside of 450 (edge to edge) range. Judgment Judgment Cooldown changed from 9 seconds to 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 seconds. Number of Spins changed: 5 − 10 (based on level) to 6 − 11 (based on level) Damage changed from 14 / 18 / 22 / 26 / 30 (+ 36 / 37 / 38 / 39 / 40% AD) to 16 / 17 / 18 / 19 / 20 (+ 40 / 42 / 44 / 46 / 48% AD) (+ 1% of target's maximum health) Now always deals 33% increased damage against monsters Armor Reduction changed from 25% after 4 hits to 5% per hit, stacking up to 6 times. Now is refreshed by any kind of Garen's damage. Demacian Justice Demacian Justice Villain-Mechanic removed Damage changed from 175 / 350 / 525 (+ 28.6 / 33.3 / 40% of target's missing health) magic damage to 60 / 70 / 80% of target's missing health physical damage
Basestats are strictly better, you now get to almost 160 base AD as well, wtf? Do you want steraks to be even more obligatory or what? Passive change makes his early game better, not weaker, and his lategame weaker, not better. Though 4% per 5 sec is still a lot, but that makes garen too forgiving early game. Decisive strike change is weird, it's a nerf overall, as 30% AD doesn't make up for the damage loss until you get to 333 AD, which means you need at least 3 AD items before it becomes a "buff". Courage change: I like trying to remake the passive of it, but it should scale still. But I honestly really like this one. Judgement: Are you trying to make garen into a jungler? Im not opposed to that :P. But it's weird, I like adding %hp damage, as the villain already takes 1% as true damage, now the non-villains also take some%hp damage. I don't like the 30% armor shred though. I like the idea that garen kills mages, he already get's to move past tanks if you use W correctly and he can build black cleaver. (Black cleaver is also underpowered right now, so it leaves room for a small %shred buff there). The idea that it shreds per hit seems good though, probably keep it at 25%. Demacian justice: Not sure I like the fact it deals 60% missing hp at rank 1 or even 80% at rank 3. That's a lot. It's also physical, and garen has built-in shred. While I like the change to physical damage, I think the damage is too high. (for the missing %health damage to equalize the lost base damage the target needs to have 560~ missing health at rank 1, 950~ missing health at rank 2 and 1312 missing health at rank 3). That means that garen, who already get's armor shred and %max hp damage, deals even more damage to tanks. I'm not sure that's really the way to take garen, especially considering that the ult will only deal less damage to targets that stack massive amounts of armor without scaling health, or that are ADC's or non-hp item mages. I also just see you removed the villain mechanic. Is it that bad? I mean it's rng so im not opposed but maybe reshaping could work too, as it's somewhat part of garen's identity.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 20
I noticed that {{champion:58}} had his W bug with conqueror fixed, however, this basically removed most if not all W cancels. It's worth noting that a lot of Renekton's skillgrowth is in his animation cancels and being able to combine abilities and auto attacks makes him fun to play. The clunkier he feels the worse he becomes to play. That said, why fix 1 bug, removing a lot of the fun and power in renekton but leave all of his other bugs untouched that renekton mains have complained about for years? I understand the under the hood changes back in season 7 made him really powerful, but they felt really good to play with. Is there any chance renekton will receive similar changes anyways or get's some of his in-kit cancels back (like W-R)? We just feel really gutted over at r/renektonmains as a champion but also as a section of the playerbase.
Rioter Comments
: lul true but maybe those champs are considered to be in the "difficulty making an all in happen when they want" category ... which doesnt rly make a whole lot of sense tbh but maybe Riot is thinking like: {{champion:23}} : can only go all in if his fury is build up {{champion:86}} : has no gapcloser and only a MS buff which makes is harder to engage all ins {{champion:114}} : can only go all in if a vital is pointed in her direction {{champion:39}} : can only go all in if she hits her stun (lul she has to hit her ability! what a condition xD) but in reality all those champs can "making an all in happen when they want" (only Garen has problems if he cant reach his opponent with Q and Irelia has to hit her spell - but tbh every champ has to hit their spells xD) but {{champion:164}} doesnt fall in either of those categories :P
That is true, they are all not akali, and the same counts for renekton. He needs fury (at least close to 50, but rather more built up), and he needs a way to use his E (that means either a wave or the enemy being close enough).
HoR RooneR (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=FlashDoubleDash,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=bOoAxRmj,comment-id=007b0000,timestamp=2019-01-30T21:55:33.631+0000) > > You forgot {{champion:23}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}} and {{champion:39}} . I think the consensus is that toplaners have a different metric (though irelia is played mid) as they are innately more brawly. Note that akali has a decent waveclear tool though and plays more like a melee assasin and has a completely different all-in pattern (it is an all in, but generally more predictable and less strong vs mobile champs) than any of the mentioned champs (outside of mid irelia because ya know, she was kinda broken). Lol... How can you say Ire is broken after the gutting nerfs she receved??? it effects both top and mid heavly.
: > Sustain is generally a tool we give to characters who have weaker all ins, or difficulty making an all in happen when they want. eeeerm ... ok? {{champion:58}} ?
You forgot {{champion:23}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}} and {{champion:39}} . I think the consensus is that toplaners have a different metric (though irelia is played mid) as they are innately more brawly. Note that akali has a decent waveclear tool though and plays more like a melee assasin and has a completely different all-in pattern (it is an all in, but generally more predictable and less strong vs mobile champs) than any of the mentioned champs (outside of mid irelia because ya know, she was kinda broken).
Meddler (NA)
: I believe we've backed off on Renekton buffs after seeing how's he's been performing better. Will check with the designer assessing him though and let you know if that's not the case.
With what stats did you determine that? I'm not seeing him doing any better and he only feels like he does worse and worse, not necessarily in raw winrate, but in how impactful you get to feel in the game. It's really hard with the current bounty system for him to not just drop dead in the game when the adc randomly picks it up and renekton is instantly irrelevant. And yeah, if the enemy isn't aware you get to kill them when your flash is up but anywhere past 15 minutes just feels superunfun to play renekton currently. You have to be on complete edge trying to be a true kda warrior just because you slaughtered your lane while if you had just farmed up in lane you can comfortably split vs maybe 20% of the current toplaners.
Famix (NA)
: Ok, ADC's arent meant to get a 1k shield while also being able to fill up another shield on top of that. It's just an overloaded item.
Yeah I understand it should not be a 1k shield, but it's not a 1k shield. It's base 280 at lvl 18, which is about 15% of the health pool on average, and it requires 5 auto attacks to regain 100% of that, or otherwise said, each auto attack restores maybe a shield equal to 3% of their hp pool. Moreover, the shield is on a long cooldown and on a burst-based trigger (more burst-focused than steraks, being 3 seconds rather than 5 seconds), that only goes off after the damage is taken to reach the threshold. That means that there is significant counterplay. This is all at least what went around in my mind and the things I tried to keep in mind while "designing" that passive. In terms of overloadedness, you might be right, but I took a draw from Maw, which grants damage, resistance, a passive with a shield that in turn also grants more damage and sustain (which is actually a massive deal and probably sustains you for more than this item ;) ). If it's really overloaded after considering that still, sure, ill take that. Maybe the shield should be restricted to physical damage all together (as maw already does the mr thing, as does mecurial)
Famix (NA)
: didnt really read this except saw that last passive, and thats busted as hell, do you want ADC's to just stand there and tank everything wtf lmao
I mean, it scales with level and is similar (but different) to lifesteal. A bloodthirster or Death's dance already accomplishes this, but against both damage types, scales with AD, and does so before you trigger the passive and without a duration. Moreso, it's a number, and that number can be tuned, like maybe 10% of the original shield is a better spot for it to land, or even only 5%.
Zig ot0 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=FlashDoubleDash,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FGhIHTj3,comment-id=00fa,timestamp=2019-01-15T14:39:01.777+0000) > > Honestly, I don't see ever how these changes accomplish your goals. The first part is good, but the changes you suggest are not better that the Riot ones. What ADCs need is the possibility to build a defensive item as a starter/2nd item while not delaying too much their powerspike. In return their lategame should be nerfed because a ranged champion who can 2 shot everyone except tanks is not acceptable either. Overall i think a crit build should consist in 2 crit items, like 1 zeal and IE. Why not cap the crit chance to 50% to be honest? Zeal item 25%, IE 25%. It means ADC have more slots for defensive and/or situational items, and it also means their lategame is nerfed.
> What ADCs need is the possibility to build a defensive item as a starter/2nd item while not delaying too much their powerspike Exactly! That's kind of what I tried to accomplish with PD, Spear and the hexbow thing. > Why not cap the crit chance to 50% to be honest? Well, the argument for that is that it will feel really rng-y if you can't get 100%. Also, I wouldn't agree all crit builds should cap at 2 items. But, I do think that's a point you should be able to stop if you wanted. That's what I was aiming for as well (I can easily see spear + IE as good 2 items for more caster-based ADC's, or PD + Hex-bow as a solid defensive 2 crit item setup. > it also means their lategame is nerfed. Yeah, but at that point, on-hit marksmen will take over anyways. Varus, kog, kaisa are still really threatening and if you go wide over the board in lategame nerfs Mages will just be played bot more (esp the higher carry ones). Ofc, they shouldn't be as late-game OP, but removing the crazy anti-tank scaling (true dmg) and not having 50% bonus crit damage goes well towards that imo. As well as having overall less attack speed spread across items should help iwith the multiplicative power. But, your worries are legit and I do see that its not necessarily obvious these changes will help a whole lot, and I don't think critical strike chance in it's essence is the most healthy type of game design, so these item changes should mainly help if they don't overhaul how critical strike works mechanically
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations Part 2
Honestly, I don't see ever how these changes accomplish your goals. Ill go by the points and explain why: **- Crit users have an item path they are excited about.** So, crit items are all down to 25%, which is fine tbf, but to reach 100% critical strike chance you need to have 4 crit items. On top, IE still feels necessary for the attack damage that it gives and if you're not a mana-adc then ER will still feel bad. That's fine, but that means you have 3 attack speed items and 1 attack damage items to go through for your 4 items. That leaves only 1 slot left, which feels a lot worse than the current 2 spare slots. Especially since most adc's will still be building the storm razor because it just feels like an actually good adc item. **- Crit users have defensive options that fit into their core builds.** So, just phantom dancer? Which was already defensive? And actually scaled with sustain? And supports? I mean, be very honest, how much does a 280 shield really matter when the item itself has such low stats? At least throw something more to it, if you want it to be that item. Plus, why the hell remove the dueling characteristic of the item? The PD change feels horrible all over the place. And since now crit marksmen have to go 4 items crit (to feel good, or they are just off worse than before) it really doesn't give much room besides that for defensive options in their core build, unless they go literal stormrazor > fighter items. Which, where's the crit then? **- Crit users become more satisfying for all levels of play.** There's no good early item outside of stormrazor to be added, ER change doesn't make it a broader item perse and IE feels like a really gimped but mandatory lategame option. How will any of these items make them more satisfying to play? --- Now I have been thinking myself about what changes to make and it's partially inspired by Phreak. Ill go by how I'd attack the goals step by step and then propose a couple of token changes: **- Crit users have an item path they are excited about.** 1. This means that at every item they should feel a spike, that is as standalone as possible as crit can be. At no point should an ADC feel forced into the rest of the items just because they are going crit. The multiplicity of crit, attack speed and AD already fulfills this roles quite hard so lets not try to force this even more. 2. However, there should still be item "synergy" where items together work well. This means that build paths actually feel as such. An example can be drawn from fighter items because they do this well, while it shouldn't be drawn from tank items because they don't do this well: Fighter items complement weaknesses that never lock you in choice but the choices feel impactful. Tank items however are generally stat balls that hope to make the tank last longer at which point choices feel meaningless moreso. **- Crit users have defensive options that fit into their core builds.** Defensive options can exist in multiple variations. Sustain (lifesteal, vamp, regen?) , anti-burst (shields) and general (resistances/ %dr). Since lifesteal is already very availlable for adc's, this is a lot less of a priority but it does mean that crit items shouldn't be locked into a 4 item path. Alternatively, crit items can be broadened to also have this option, but there is the chance both yasuo and tryn might poach that which is the major issue there. It could be a ranged only item though which would work. Anti-burst and general are the more likely 2 types of defensive options, and while these already exist outside of crit, only current PD does it somewhat. But that's very duel-focussed and doesn't offer much vs an assasin who kills you before you react. I have a very big opinion on defensive options for adc's though: They need to be a lot weaker, as they shouldn't be common to build, it feels bad for an assasin or diver to not be able to do their job. **- Crit users become more satisfying for all levels of play.** In short, I interpret this as crit has to be satisfying at 1, 2 and 3 items because low elo likes to brawl, aram earlier and doesn't generally get to experience end-game in a fair way. Farming up 5 items is harder and it's rare to reach sivir's 500 cs wincondition. So, there has to be competition for not only stormrazor, but also a solid 2 item and 3 item path. --- Alright, so let's get into it. Firstly, I'd like to state that I'd be an extreme proponent for a systematic crit change (that goes along the idea of replacing chance with critical strike power, which simply amplifies all your attacks with that %damage, which can be done quite straight up but it also shouldn't take away too much of ashe's uniqueness. I have a lot of game design reasons why that's the actual way to go, but that's a longer post, so let's just assume we're changing items only). **- Zeal items: ** Currently {{item:3086}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3085}} {{item:3087}} and {{item:3094}} I'd like to think zeal feels a bit bad to have to build in first item. A big reason for this in my eyes is the movement speed, as it doesn't really give much power until later on. Same with the critical strike chance. Besides that, there's a lot of daggers going into the items. So, let's do this: {{item:3086}}: Builds out of longsword + brawlers gloves, total cost - 1100 gold ( down from 1300) + 15 AD + 15% critical strike chance {{item:2015}} Builds out of dagger, total cost - 1100 gold (up from 800) Now also grants +5% movement speed _Now zeal is a better farming item while shard is a better kiting item. And it gives a baseline AD to crit items. _ {{item:3087}} Same path, cost up to 3000, build path is now 1100 * 2 + 800 + 15 AD + 30% attack speed + 25% critical strike chance + 5% movement speed Same passive {{item:3094}} Same path, cost up to 3000, build path is now 1100 * 2 + 800 + 15 AD + 25% attack speed + 25 critical strike chance + 5% movement speed same passive _Their path is probably more satisfying now to build earlier. These items look like they are good stand alone items but without AD they aren't really. These changes should help while keeping them balanced overall_ {{item:3046}} _(very experimental, drastic change)_ Builds out of zeal and recurve bow, total cost - 3200 (up from 2700) + 15 AD + 40% attack speed + 25% critical strike chance + 5% movement speed Spectral walts: Movement speed bonus down to 5%, radius down to 500. Now has a new passive (replaces Lament) - Attacks against champions deal 1% current hp true damage, healing you for the same amount. _More focused on the dueling aspect. Dueling generally likes defensiveness but being able to focus out tanks without completely busting them (current IE) makes more sense. It also gives a slightly better feel for yasuo/tryndamere while reducing their overall PD spike (less crit) and the passive is slightly less powerful on them (since they are more around dealing the big crits)_ {{item:3085}} _(slightly experimental, doesnt need the energize if that's too much)_ Builds out of kircheis shard and zeal, cost up to 3000 + 15 AD + 25% attack speed + 25% critical strike chance + 5% movement speed Wind's fury same New passive (bolting strike?) - Now also energizes attacks, energized attacks deal 50 - 80 bonus damage and grant +20% movement speed for 1 second _As this item is often already complementary to on-hit builds as well as useful on some other crit marksmen (ashe and jinx come to mind), it feels in a good spot. It is however, generally build on less mobile champion and some of the movement speed could be shifted to the passive, but that part is not necessary, but this is the reason kircheis shard is in the path (also makes more sense the ms is still there this way)_ **Other items (spoiler, now also Zeal items)** Currently only {{item:3031}}. That feels bad doesn't it? Let's change it. We have some room left to explore. With the zeal changes we can confidently say that build path's feel better early and midgame, there's some synergy but it's not necessary and Pd is already filling the sustain role without giving crazy lifesteal. So, let's propose some items: {{item:3031}} Builds out of zeal + B.F sword + zeal, total cost 4000 + 70 AD (2250) + 30% critical strike chance (1200) New passive: The sharpest blade - Attacks against champions or epic monsters grant +5% critical strike chance, +5 AD and 5% armor penetration, up to 4 stacks lasting 4 seconds. _Infinity Edge really should hit that fantasy of the marksmen dream where it makes you a damage god. Being a 3-item god is a bit risky though, so I think pushing it towards a high price is worthwhile, especially considering zeal items also gained a bit of power. However, it's risky if it's reverted to a burst item (anti-squish etc) so I made it more into a sustained dps item. _ {{item:3161}} Builds out of Zeal + Caulfields warhammer, total cost 3400 + 50 AD (1750) + 15% critical strike chance (600) + 10% cooldown reduction (250) New passive: Dragon's patience - Grants +5% critical strike chance each 0.5 seconds up to +25%. This bonus is consumed on critical strikes. New passive: Dragon scales (active) - Gain 20 armor and magic resistance for 5 seconds. Resistance penetration is 50% less effective on you during this time. (cooldown: 90 seconds) _The concept of spear of shojin being a crit item is interesting, especially if it also keeps it's defensive aspect. Now I personally like the idea of keeping it as an overlap between fighters and marksmen so making it not be completely reliant on critical strikes feels better. _ **Hextech shield-bow-cannon** Builds out of Zeal + Stopwatch + pickaxe, total cost 3400 + 50 AD + 25% critical strike chance Passive - Lifeline: After taking 300-1000 (based on level) damage within 3 seconds, gain 100 (+10 per level) adaptive shielding for 5 seconds, based on the highest damage type you took. Triggering lifeline activates Adaptive Blasting Protocol (cooldown 90 seconds) Passive - Adaptive blasting protocol: For 5 seconds, gain 25% critical strike chance and critical strikes grant 20% of the adaptive shield. --- So, apparently im at the character limit, but here's my concepts
Meddler (NA)
: Two main things there. The first is that there's a lot of other stuff vying for the time of other possible designers too, whether it's midseason followup, other champion updates, balance or whatever. While Lissandra's passive isn't great, it's not as urgent an issue as a range of other things (Lissandra players will be sick of hearing that understandably, but it's still a trade off of what to work on). The second reason is that the lack of a satisfying passive on Lissandra rests on me, given I put her existing one there during her original design. I'd like to be involved in cleaning up that past failure to deliver as a result if possible.
I understand the dissatisfaction. I have that same one, even though I don't play Lissandra. When I started playing the game though, I was kind of into mages, and especially Lissandra provoked my interest here (together with brand, who'm I love), as I love teamfight mages. I think the deal here is that Lissandra tends to auto a lot in lane-phase, but doesn't do that much of it come teamfights, which makes it hard to make the passive very auto-attack related. Mana related will always feel bad, even one someone like Xerath, on which it might be less of an issue though, since it does give him incentive to get more aggresive than he'd otherwise. More concrete, I'd like to propose the following passive: Freezing touch Lissandra slows targets hit by her auto attack or the first target hit by her Q for an additional ~10% for 1 second (can be tweaked, idea is that this stacks with other slows, but not itself). Hitting an enemy champion with freezing touch grants Lissandra a stack of Frost armor Frost armor Whenever Lissandra casts a spell or hits a champion with freezing touch she gains a stack of frost armor, lasting 2 seconds, up to 3 stacks (each new stack refreshes duration). This grants Lissandra 5% damage reduction per stack and slows champions that damage her by an additional 5% per stack for 1 second (again, stacking with other slows but not itself) This 2-part passive could grant Lissandra some well needed way of being able to try and duel in the toplane, or be a bigger menace to target in a teamfight. Possibly she'd even be a good support this way, granting her a way to be useful without the need of massive items. Of course, variations are also possible, but I think it would be a good direction to take her passive in.
Meddler (NA)
: Because a lot of the time the difference in mitigation (Armor/MR) between the targets we're trying to equalize is much larger than the difference in health pools. % health damage is a really useful tool too though certainly.
Correct me if wrong, but: % health damage is often a good baseline of always having some amount of damage, and is less-snowball reliant, hence why its often used on tanks, or late-game carries. True damage is to better deal with counter-itemization and generally works well to make sure someone can stay as relevant later in the game as he is early, and can function to extend scaling, especially vs tanky comps. Tanks often have cheaper itemization already, and if he's put behind 2 kills early on, that lead lessens with each component bought, and each item completed. True damage helps to keep that lead relevant longer. Hence it works well in cases that are quite different from when %health damage works well. Combined, you get late-game scalers who can also efficiently snowball (fiora is a good example). Ofc other parts of kits influence these factors, but generally this is what %health damage/true damage does in my eyes.
Meddler (NA)
: Maybe. It's a bit of a test to see how it goes, in particular whether making it so players can more consistently use execute ults effectively results in more interesting gameplay (clear tension and trade offs) or a flatter experience (removal of skill test and chance for failure).
I think there was a post a while back (or multiple) that said that it was mainly used if an ult had some reward for doing the execute (ie chogath, darius, not garen, urgot). I'd like to think thats still a valid reasoning. Darius and chogath dont get less damage by ulting a bit too early, granted everything else is equal (like stoneplating for cho or stacks for darius), while for garen it leaves a skilltest for both players (estimating damage levels). So unless there's an execute that doesnt reward on kill, but also stays the same on damage (can it even be an execute then), I dont think there's much reason to give non-rewarding executes an indicator.
Meddler (NA)
: Mind Control approach was something I was really excited about on paper. Once in game though it just ended up feeling like mini Banner of Command all the time. Optimal play was still just grab cannons and push, just with a bigger swing since you'd also gained a minion. When strong also lead to Mind Control versus Mind Control lanes (was its own counter) that got bogged down with not very interesting minion combat. We're looking at other approaches to Minion Dematerializer as a result. Generally like the 'kill a minion' part, waveclear part hasn't worked out as hoped (were looking for a safety valve/fallback, has ended up being too much an unsatisfying but optimal and should be default for some champs).
What about something less linked to charges/instakilling and more periodical waveclear that puts the user in a little bit of a risk: Your next attack deals ~50-150 bonus damage in an AoE against minions and monsters (cooldown: 90-30 seconds, scaling down with levels). Minions damaged below 20% health are executed. It will still serve as a pushing tool, but is a lot less safe and better gated than just 6 charges. Its also less useable just to secure cannons if they are being protected etc. Additionally gives low waveclear champs a small bit more power to de-push. Im not sure on the exact numbers ofcourse, or the exact gating which attack should trigger it, but I think the concept would just be more healthy overall
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 14
Hey meddler: I understand priorities are different right now, but I've been following some courses on game design, and started to ponder on critical strike chance and had the following conclusion: Crit chance feels like it's an all or nothing right now for builds, very few champions only go 50% crit chance or so. It also feels either super-good or superbad early if you happen to land a lucky crit or get killed by one. These "lucky" crits sadly don't allow much play around, so I was considering the following, somewhat power-neutral change to how crit works, which also opens up more options to implement crit: Critical strike chance -> critical strike range: Instead of being chance based, you now critical strike on auto-attacks based if the target is lower than your critical strike range i.e. with 20% your auto would deal double damage to a champion below 20% hp. Pro's: 1: Critical strikes can now be anticipated and played around 2: Critical strike range feels a lot less bad to not cap out on, and has slightly more lineair scaling, while not being crazy broken at low values. For example Iedge rush can either be supergood right now, or superbad, depending on if you land a lucky 500 ad crit. This change would neutralize the power differential, while not making Iedge the best early buy (because a 500 ad crit is overkill if the enemy is at 300 hp). 3: It opens up for critical strike items on assasins or fighters, if the stats are right. Clearly it should not just be an Iedge with 30 less ad and 400 more hp because then adc's would get too tanky for free, but it does open options as assasins/fighters cant go crit right now because it's too inconsistent. Con's: 1: It would hurt a lot of champions who rely on being on lower health (Illaoi, Olaf, Tryndamere), but arguably this could be a good change too, as it would allow those champions to gain some more power and have different ways to "deal" with them rather than just kite or go tabi + bramblevest. 2: It would promote champions who have easy time shielding themselves/others at full hp, like Malphite/Sion, but again, could arguably be a good change, as it shifts their power-points more to being strong against AD crit champions. 3: Might reduce design space as it overlaps with other execute mechanics (Jhin, most notably, not pantheon, as this way of critting pretty much equals his way of critting). -- What would you think?
Meddler (NA)
: Opening up the bot lane farming position to other types of champion besides marksmen. Might include some adjustments to marksmen items and/or base stats at the same time, still figuring that out.
I think botlane is very sensitive, as the presence of a support can heavily influence that lane. I feel that any too aggresive "Carries" in the bot would push out marksmen, who are naturaly less aggresive, except maybe lucian, and any too "wavecleary" champs in the bot would push out marksmen because they just wouldn't be able to accumulate a lead in any viable way. So for example, the idea of yasuo/morde doesn't work really well because they both have very aggresive kits with their kit trying to make up for their nature of short-range farming, while someone like Azir or Ziggs just has too much waveclear, reasonably speaking. A way to counteract mages clearing botlane too fast (and possibly even mid/top) could be to give melee creeps some early MR, as they would be able to clear casters, but not instantly push out a marksmen, as they usually have less ad and thus clear the melee's slower. This should make it so a botlane mage starter item should be more plausible (not sure what it would be as off now, or if it's even a starter item that would be what's needed to make mages bot a healthy option). The other issue with mages bot, is that they don't have the same true late scaling/carry power as crit adc's have (like for example sivir's 500 cs wincon), so maybe eventually a "crit" mage itemization could become viable,, where aoe abilities that hit only a single target deal maybe 20-30% increased magic damage or ignore some amount of magic resistance, ala void staff. Maybe a multiple item branch that scales with eachother, but not the rest of the AP itemization instead, so midlane mages can't just poach, thinking along the lines of a unique passive, along the lines of: Mythic power X - For each item with mythic power, gain 10 magic penetration Mythic power Y - For each item with mythic power, gain 10% increased magic damage on single targets. Mythic power Z - For each item with mythic power, gain 2.5% CDR and max CDR. Mythic power 0 - For each item with mythic power, gain 3% movement speed Each of these items could have slightly underwhelming stats for midlane mages, notably never any health or resistances, preferably no impactful passives. Mana, CDR and AP should be relatively core on all of these. Maybe have some effects that makes their sustained damage slightly higher, like one item could have a DoT that deals 10% (+5% per mythic power) of the original ability's damage over a second, and then gets refreshed to another second per auto-attack during that DoT. (can be infinitely refreshed, as long as the mage keeps attacking?). I think there's a lot of considerations. Of course, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to look at marksmen itemization and make it more versatile either at that point.
: Maybe if it wasn't on such a short cooldown.
But then just reduce the damage or the shield. I feel lowering the skill ceiling of tanks is just a terrible idea, considering they generally are already easier to play. Unless there's a big difference between Ornn apprentices and Ornn masters it's going to be better imo to reduce his raw power.
: PSA to Fiora players: Stop taking Press the Attack and take Klepto + sorcery secondary.
Or Aery lol :P Though tbh, I see a lot of players prefering domination second over sorcery second, for many champions and many primary, which to me feels weird, especially when they take it for sustain, because the main reason u'd want to grab domination is for assasination/control/catch potential with all the damage and utility it offers. Both taste and ravenous feel more like an option for those that already want to gain a benefit from the tree, like sudden impact or the ooc ms Also, Press the attack being a really suboptimal option on fiora feels weird, and probably indictates a bit of a problem with the keystone being too tuned for adc/burst trades and not enough for the 1v1 duelists. Though I agree with the nerf it gained, I think not having an additional melee bonus is kinda bad for the overall balance, where unlike Phase rush, it has a substantial bonus on ranged vs melee (can't proc with ability burst).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 22
Any plans for renekton? He kinda missed out on the bruiser changes and sitting at a very low winrate. Feel like he got hurt a lot by new runes (fervor's ad scaling mattered so much, his teamfight prowess just dropped by miles in pre-season, and precision gives attack speed instead of ad, so press the attack isn't giving renekton nearly as much power as he should get from a sustained fighting rune)
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 17
@meddler Thoughts on renekton? He kind of falls in a really weird place currently, he isn't a bruiser, sure, but he still is more a bruiser than riven, and dropped to the very bottom in winrates. Though press the attack seems like a natural fit, it clearly doesn't even offer him half of what fervor did, and none of the keystones give him the true snowballing prowess he had, since he get's a lot less teamfight power with any of them. (8 stack fervor was so huge for how much AoE dmg/sustain he could get, due to his ad ratios). Not to add the horrible %attack speed which renekton could care less about that the precision path gives. There's just so little interesting early options in general. (both he and riven miss the 10% cdr to start of with a lot, and personally I miss my mass armor start for those early-focussed ad matchups (iron skin is just not a viable option currently, since sorcery gives renekton an actually better early game advantage). And since renekton doesn't have proper early runes right now, and has no solid way to transition into teamfighting, he just doesn't have a reason to be picked, ever, with his low winrate (and he's always been, in my eyes, a well-rounded champion, where now all he can do is go assasin-ish or wannabe duelist)
: Irelia's healing is weird, her "balance" is difficult to balance, she's got minimal teamfight potential unless built against her identity, and doesn't do very well right now into most tanks or splitpushers.
Actually she does well into most tanks and splitpushers (irelia is hard to counter, just because she is so stat-checky) but ye she is hard to balance, due to the fact she has one of the most reliable ways to scale into midgame and having one of the strongest midgame spikes (lvl 9 and 11 are very powerful spikes for her), and her kit does just not feel thematic. Also, her E is a really bad design in the sense that it stimulates not dealing damage to irelia which promotes bad play patterns and is a big issue imo, but that play pattern doesn't even matter anymore if she gets enough stats, because u simply can't play safe enough against irelia (prob one of the longest gapclosing's when she has tri-force for toplane)
: {{champion:83}} you need to pump up those numbers, those are rookie numbers
{{champion:75}} K, let's 1v9 then.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 15
Rune-related question: Will you guys keep an AD-caster/brawler focussed rune in the system alike Fervor? Feels silly if a champ like renekton can only go for a burst keystone (ruined king doesn't really fit him, does it) or a non-dmg keystone. Or do you guys consider an effect like fervor to be too shaping? (as in, too mandatory if it's too good, not useful enough when it's not good enough) EDIT: I was thinking, maybe a keystone that revolves around weaving: After you auto-attack, your next ability deals X% more damage (maybe with a 1-2 second cooldown, alike sheen). Since there's already an attack-based keystone, and enough ability-based keystones, why not one that uses both? It really should allow it's own playstyle, and would be both viable on AD and AP casters, and wouldn't be too toxic for most cases, because auto-attacking puts you closer into danger than just casting would. Maybe half effectiveness for ranged champions just too make it balanced for melee vs ranged?
: Jungle is his best role imo, most people are just terrible at utilizing his kit properly. His clear is incredibly easy.
Meh he is way better top. He has a superpowerful lvl 1 trading pattern, even vs those champs that like to lvl 1 brawl like riven. I think a lot of his low winrate top is still to do with people not knowing how to play him properly.
: Who is the most fun to play when tilted...
When Im tilted I like to play a different roll. Since im a top main, this usually means to play jungle or mid, sometimes even adc, but generally put prefence on someone that can just snowball hard but is also a safe pick. Someone like {{champion:254}} {{champion:101}} or {{champion:21}} always does well for me. Great snowballing champions that don't get stomped on so easily while easy to play.
: marksman are uncontested late game because riot removed steroids from melee/bruiser kits. > If you would make those champs have less base and more scaling damage, they'd lose their identity untrue, entirely untrue. there's nothing wrong with certain bruisers being scaling threats. in fact it'd be a huge boon to the class to undo the horrible shifts of them being this awkward early-mid game group that either snowballs hard or flops and is useless (the same reason assassin rework was shit; a class should not have the same power curve). marksman could do with a flat nerf to their late game and nothing else. they are more relevant than they've ever been early game, even the hypercarries like twitch and kogmaw. if they get their items sooner they shouldn't be as powerful, especially with how easy it is for supports to protect them with enormous shields and heals in s7. it was acceptable before because they were squishy and took a long time to get rolling jungle won't change, ruined king tribute is for tanky fighters not mages. jungle needs another overhaul that's more in line with other seasons; lower respawn timers and camps that aren't a massive time sink like krugs.
> there's nothing wrong with certain bruisers being scaling threats Exactly, _Certain_ bruisers. Renekton/pantheon shouldn't be scaling threats. Due to the natural way their kit works, it's hard for them to become scaling threats, because renekton could late-game oneshot a team if you made it that way, and his early game is powerful because of the different aspects he has that are early-game centric (Q sustain and poke, high mobility and single target burst with W, removing some base dmg doesn't take away he will still have the easier trades in most matchups while scaling would make him obliterate late-game, since he already has great bonus AD scaling if he knows how to combo a team, especially when lvl difference is big) while pantheon naturally has early game dueling due to his passive AA block and single target Q poke, only way to make him scale better late is to rework his passive so that it gives him a duration based AA block much like jax, but then he just becomes a roaming ability focussed version of jax. And certain other bruisers, like Fiora and Jax already are scaling threats, but they do it in a toxic way (u can't outposition them, or dive them under tower, like u can do with marksmen because of how they have some form of damage/cc mitigation and natural tankiness which melee champs need to function as carry's (even yi needs his alpha and slow immune to become a carry, remove either and u can just garbage can him). >marksman could do with a flat nerf to their late game and nothing else. they are more relevant than they've ever been early game, even the hypercarries like twitch and kogmaw Both of these can easily be countered in the early game, and can severely be outplayed late. As long as the teams are even, and you didn't counterpick yourself by grabbing nothing to jump onto these threats, you can always try to catch them out allowing for situations where playmaking is opposed by the hypercarry trying to avoid getting caught. The fact u mention supports being able to protect them, is not the issue of hypercarry marksman, because trust me, it's just as toxic on a hypercarry toplaner or even just any fighter or assasin that can deal a certain amount of sustain damage (read: trundle, kled, talon, jayce etc). But supports need to feel like they can be useful, but it's healing/shielding that is the problem, mainly ardent censer and the new healing/shielding power items, because they never really rebalanced enchanters around this. > jungle won't change, ruined king tribute is for tanky fighters not mages. Ohhh im sorry what? How is this so, why can't an AP jungler opt to go for ruined king tribute if they need it to sustain. I agree with the krugs issue, but krugs generally feels bad on any jungler that can't deal enough AA dmg, including tank junglers, while feeling too easy to take for most toplaners. (the amount of free gold a renekton/riven can get from that while being both ahead and behind is just bull and needs to be changed)
: i'd have rather seen big balance changes than a new rune system in s8
Aren't rune system changes kind of going to affect champion balance too? I think this in fact is a way to address the issue's you're bringing up. Jungle diversity is probably gonna change due to introductions of keystones that can affect jungling (ruined king's tribute as one of the examples), which would help early AP jungling just as much as tank or Carry jungling. Burst mages are getting some better trading power options with the new sorcery tree, while also being able to get stuff like the stopwatch or w.e. It might affect them a significant amount more than utility mages if they balance it that way. Lane diversity (I suppose botlane) should also be addressed due to mages getting easier access to armor in their runes, and better 2v2 trading options (meteor is AoE so is better in that duo lane setup, especially in combination with an all-in CC champ like leona or alistar. Marksman are naturally going to have one of the most powerful late-games due to how their crit scaling works, no matter how you balance them or the crit items, unless u significantly change how crit works, but then again, auto-attacks naturally have less base scaling and more item scaling, and naturally more late-game scaling on champs that have attack speed steroids or auto-attack enhancing, where burst mages/fighters generally are going to have more scaling from using abilities to make them fit those styles more. If you would make those champs have less base and more scaling damage, they'd lose their identity and marksman would lose their marksman identity if you gave them too much base dmg (they would start building bruiser/tank/fighter items instead because they wouldn't need the base dmg, or lethality and become assasins - See the era of lethality lucian/MF and jihn or the era of graves and quinn building sterak's BC deaths dance instead of actual marksman items. The only way to take away their late-game monopoly is addressing the late-game carry's that aren't marksman like jax/fiora in top, yi/shyvana in jungle and ryze/azir in mid without hurting the other classes that have item overlap and this turns out to be hard, since those champion types generally have way more issues with toxic gameplay patters attached to them than marksmen have.
Meddler (NA)
: I think it's pretty dangly, given lack of current core users besides Ezreal sometimes. Could do with an adjustment at some point, don't think it's doing any harm though so wouldn't deprioritize other work to work on it.
Would giving it some AoE spell application in the terms of 1/3 of the damage (much like AoE vamp/lifesteal works, ofc would still drain the full 3% mana) be a thing? So that it's broader applicable and doesn't feel like a bad item when u don't have a great way of using single target abilities?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 29
I wast thinking a keystone that can benefit a control jungling style (for those games where you'll either need to defend yourself against one, have someone u can prey on, or just need objective control), so I came with the following idea: Master scout: Your wards in the jungle or river last twice as long, and have 50% increased vision range. After placing a ward, for a short duration (2-3 seconds maybe) you gain movement speed and your next attack of ability deals x% current hp bonus damage (possibly scaling with either lvls or AD/AP) This should be a very nice keystone for those junglers that like using wards, or for those games that ask for more vision control. Not only will wards be more effective, but it would also be both safer to place wards, and allows for more instant plays if you do spot a target. But it would also be a great keystone for roaming laners, or supports, especially if they like invading jungle because it's not limited to smite but to something everyone has access to (wards). Balancing could be done mainly through adjusting the movement speed bonus and damage bonus, as they will most likely be the main decider of opportunity cost vs power the keystone has.
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FlashDoubleDash

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