: You need to look at what actually happens vs the ideal of what you think happens. 1) W does not get reliable cooldown resets in a support role. 2) Her kit has about 20% less range correlation with an adc when taking into account the new restrictions. 3) W doesn't multiproc, where other champions DO. 4) Morgana's Auto attack range is 75-100 less than every other support in the game, and at least 75 less than every adc in the game. In other words, she can't auto attack in bot lane. What this translates to: 2-3 more minutes without wards than a support who can both cooldown + auto attack. Lower overall game gold, even though her kit is substantially a full damage one. It doesn't matter that it's a guaranteed proc to hit with W. It matters that W is on an 12 second cooldown vs 4 second cooldowns and Zyras who can drain their entire charge counter in 2 skills. It matters that she can't accompany it with auto attacks. ------------------------------------------- Wave clearing: The fact you don't understand what I'm saying tells me you do not understand the importance of laning. Her W can clear a wave .... sure. But it won't last hit each one. It will at best last hit 3-4 of them, leaving 2 of them to die to minions. Those two lost are forever gone. While you are destroying the waves, and not getting gold, your opponent can still enjoy 90-100 % Wave capture. And there is very little "Skill" can do about this problem, because Morgana's .5 second ticks are faster than her auto attacks which have a tiny range, and easily put waves in precarious situations where 3-4 HP is left and a minion kills it. And late game, her W sucks at wave clear. It takes her wave about 5 seconds to kill a minion wave normally late game. It takes her W about 15 seconds to kill a minion wave on Baron Buff. That's enough time to push the turret, kill it, and move on to the next. Meanwhile, a fully build adc, or Xerath, can instant clear a wave. And there is NOTHING Morgana can do about this problem.
Yeah, nicely put. While she DO have a functional kit, she's clearly lacking compared to other champs. She needs something more, passives, abilities interactivity etc.
Ganondorf (EUW)
: Morgana Update kit ?
I think so too. Old Poppy was fine too. Situational but fine, same for Warwick. But they both had what Morgana still has. A one dimensional playstyle with no versatility. I really think it'll catch up, and like Ryze, she'll have to be reworked again. I think they can keep this kit, but they could add some sub abilities to the whole thing. Specialized aa, dot, combo spells like Q+W now add a special effect.
Rioter Comments
Kazo Kurosu (EUNE)
: > But what if it was made on purpose and it is yet to be told ? While Riot's everpresent and everlooming Soon™ can sure give some hopes for the future regarding this, we still need to remember that Riot has tendency to straight up remove things from the lore on the spot, and im not even talking about the whole Summoners stuff. I know that its an overused example but Varus makes a good case here. Although Riot did admit that Varus lore changes were badly shipped. > That's enough to say that there's something that is left to be known. I suppose we can be happy about the fact that Marcus as a character is still considered canon, same with his wife. And even if we don't know what exactly happened, we're sure that something DID. How will Riot explain all of this and when they'll do it is a seperate issue. > Urgot is convinced that Marcus have been killed by Swain Urgot in his current state is a sad, bitter, cynical man. And is 100% still pissed at Swain for betraying him, so he straight up assumes the same thing happened with Marcus, with the "begging" part being the mentioned cynicism. That's how im interpreting this at least > while the latter ask if "they" still blame him for his death. I'm pretty sure Swain talks about other noble houses that try to put the guilt on him. Whether Kat actually believes them is unknown. > There's something. Marcus is not only a master of the blades, he's also one of the greatest spy and assassin of all Valoran. What if he knew what would happen ? It's not difficult for someone like him to have some info on Swain's coup and the Black Rose. So, he decided to set his own death to let people think he's dead to dissapear. But why ? It is unlikely that he would try to overthrow Swain, as the man is far better than him at this game. Kill him ? Why ? He certainly knows that Swain means the future of the nation, and it would be odd to see him fight for the ideas of Darkwil the mad man. If i were to throw theories around I'd say that Marcus (and entire Du Couteau house) helped Swain convince other noble houses of Noxus to aid him in overthowing Darkwil. After all was done, if we assume that Swain wasn't responsible for Marcus's disappearing, we could point fingers at 3 units. Noble houses, LB with Black Rose and finally Cassio. In Cassio's color story, the very last line of text says: "Her next victim would offer her a far greater challenge." which just screams Marcus and very teenage-like hatred towards the parent figure. As Marcus definitely isn't a Father of the Year material, we can imagine why she would like to see him dead. LB would just want a powerful figure like Marcus out of the way as soon as his usefulnes ended. Neither She not Noxus need two Swains, and Marcus would definitely play a role similar to Swain's assuming he would be the one to rally up other noble houses. If she was the reason for his disappearing then out of the 3 she would definitely have biggest chances of killing him. Nobles would just do what nobles do. Scheming behind each others backs in their big scale game of risk. Rallying around a person or two for a particular cause (in this example, shortening Darkwil by a bunch of important centimeters starting from head). After the cause is no more, those persons aren't really needed. > Talon Talon's lore is most outdated of all 3 champs in Du Couteau family. We can't really be safe assuming that not much changed for him. But if that was the case then yes, we should definitely look at Talon's future endevours for any traces of Marcus and his current state.
> [{quoted}](name=Kazo Kurosu,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EpjTbG8K,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-06-07T05:16:33.341+0000) > > While Riot's everpresent and everlooming Soon™ can sure give some hopes for the future regarding this, we still need to remember that Riot has tendency to straight up remove things from the lore on the spot, and im not even talking about the whole Summoners stuff. I know that its an overused example but Varus makes a good case here. Although Riot did admit that Varus lore changes were badly shipped. > > I suppose we can be happy about the fact that Marcus as a character is still considered canon, same with his wife. And even if we don't know what exactly happened, we're sure that something DID. How will Riot explain all of this and when they'll do it is a seperate issue. > > Urgot in his current state is a sad, bitter, cynical man. And is 100% still pissed at Swain for betraying him, so he straight up assumes the same thing happened with Marcus, with the "begging" part being the mentioned cynicism. That's how im interpreting this at least > > I'm pretty sure Swain talks about other noble houses that try to put the guilt on him. Whether Kat actually believes them is unknown. > > If i were to throw theories around I'd say that Marcus (and entire Du Couteau house) helped Swain convince other noble houses of Noxus to aid him in overthowing Darkwil. After all was done, if we assume that Swain wasn't responsible for Marcus's disappearing, we could point fingers at 3 units. Noble houses, LB with Black Rose and finally Cassio. > > In Cassio's color story, the very last line of text says: "Her next victim would offer her a far greater challenge." which just screams Marcus and very teenage-like hatred towards the parent figure. As Marcus definitely isn't a Father of the Year material, we can imagine why she would like to see him dead. > > LB would just want a powerful figure like Marcus out of the way as soon as his usefulnes ended. Neither She not Noxus need two Swains, and Marcus would definitely play a role similar to Swain's assuming he would be the one to rally up other noble houses. If she was the reason for his disappearing then out of the 3 she would definitely have biggest chances of killing him. > > Nobles would just do what nobles do. Scheming behind each others backs in their big scale game of risk. Rallying around a person or two for a particular cause (in this example, shortening Darkwil by a bunch of important centimeters starting from head). After the cause is no more, those persons aren't really needed. > > Talon's lore is most outdated of all 3 champs in Du Couteau family. We can't really be safe assuming that not much changed for him. But if that was the case then yes, we should definitely look at Talon's future endevours for any traces of Marcus and his current state. Aye, true that it's not always up to our expectations... Well, I really don't like Cassio new purpose. She just became some sort of thirsty beast, like Warwick. I can't see anything done well in that direction. Even if it was meant to make her kill her dad, or even Katarina due to jealousy. I'd prefer a smarter evolution in which Cassio would have to deal with her new appearance while trying to do what she have ever done, scheming. LB would definitely be the main suspect if Marcus was really dead. But still, the "why" is yet to be told. She loves to make people her puppets. A powerful tool such as Marcus, who could kill mostly anyone, would be a waste. Making him disappear somewhere else would be more in her tastes, even more if it means "profit". If Marcus was really dead, Talon would inevitably avenge him at all cost, and for this we need setup and for this we need suspects and a reason. It would be terribly lame to say " wow what the heck, the most powerful spy of noxus got killed, it's sad, but talon will kill the one who did this to him " It could be a plot device, but still, we need a motive behind this event. I think it would be far more interesting to exploit Marcus as a playable champ and an acting character in the events to come.
Kazo Kurosu (EUNE)
: So, what's up with Du Couteau family anyway.
Nice review of the Du Couteau house here. I must admit that, as the most represented house of nobility from Noxus, there's a big gap from this lore update that is sadly hard to understand. Most especially due to the fact that it was mostly political, thanks to Swain, and as one of the most eminent house over there. But what if it was made on purpose and it is yet to be told ? Yeah, I know, we go places thinking like that, but you see what I mean. We have a few elements left to make us think about it. We are talking about Marcus Du Couteau. But like you said, only two characters are talking about him. That's enough to say that there's something that is left to be known. It is particularly strange that both Swain and Urgot seem to be convinced about something different. Urgot is convinced that Marcus have been killed by Swain, while the latter ask if "they" still blame him for his death. What does it mean ? Is he really dead ? Swain, as he knows everything, seem to have a complete different version of the story. He's far from being scared to tell if he had to get rid of someone or something, why would he lie ? What does he know ? For Urgot, it's only at the last moment that he knew that he has been played by Swain, so, it would be easy to guess that he is supposing that Marcus has been betrayed as well. Swain is very clever, and his new power gives him even more knowledge. He seems to be unbothered on the matter, as if it was not important, and he's not the kind of guy to let the odds decide for him. He might know that he is not dead, but he also seem to know that he is not a personal threat, well, for the times to come at least. There's something. Marcus is not only a master of the blades, he's also one of the greatest spy and assassin of all Valoran. What if he knew what would happen ? It's not difficult for someone like him to have some info on Swain's coup and the Black Rose. So, he decided to set his own death to let people think he's dead to dissapear. But why ? It is unlikely that he would try to overthrow Swain, as the man is far better than him at this game. Kill him ? Why ? He certainly knows that Swain means the future of the nation, and it would be odd to see him fight for the ideas of Darkwil the mad man. Someone is also determined to know what happened to his master. It's Talon and he is looking for something, and not for nothing. He knows that he isn't dead. I think you might have a lot of this on your mind, but personnaly I prefer to imagine that it is yet to be worked on. Also, I don't really like what they did for Cassio. It's a bit meh. Katarina is too edgy and "teeny" in the last update aswell. I'm looking forward for a next lore update. So, yeah, wait & see ?
Rioter Comments
: > Personally, with the flaws of her outfit, it's actually her inconsistency towards her racial features. She's supposed to be Shuriman (Middle East ppl), as a tribe girl, yet, she's just Scarlet Johansson... Like, it makes no sense. How can one know their own race if they don't grow up with their traditions at all?
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EAPe71V5,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-04-12T00:39:56.722+0000) > > How can one know their own race if they don't grow up with their traditions at all? You miss the point. It is stated by her own story, her location and she has enough memory to remember where she came from. Not growing with people of the same race doesn't erase what's part of your own racial heritage.. She is Shuriman, so, she is supposed to be Middle East looking. Scarlett Johansson is far from being something else than a white girl, not Japanese (you know) and even less Middle East looking.
: To everyone whining about feminazis and SJWs regarding Kai'sa...
Consistency is really important when it comes to design. Well, her outfit is just one part of the issue. Personally, with the flaws of her outfit, it's actually her inconsistency towards her racial features. She's supposed to be Shuriman (Middle East ppl), as a tribe girl, yet, she's just Scarlet Johansson... Like, it makes no sense. Still, there's too much to say about it. There are some issues in their designing process; but at the same time it's great and high quality... I think it would be a cool idea to see devs justifying their actual work on the process and the choices made on things. Sharing what led them to do this or that. I mean, Irelia for instance share the same issue on her racial features. She became "white" while being asian. It's really weird and it can actually be seen on a prior version of her splashart. So... Those details matter when you are creating a world with consistency. It never meant that they couldn't make things "attractive", because ofc it sells and it never hurts ( *wink* {{champion:44}} ), but it has to be consistent.. even more when the lore is actually evolving so much etc.
: Irelia's Model is so bloody big in game
Yeah it's kinda like Vayne. She's so big like wth. Morde is very small tho, sadly. :(
: And that's just in her Ionian heritage, her current lore bit says that people are suspicious that her songs might be more than just mundane music. I really think Sona needs a friend in Demacia.
> [{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=O4luxQbV,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-07T08:30:24.644+0000) > > And that's just in her Ionian heritage, her current lore bit says that people are suspicious that her songs might be more than just mundane music. > > I really think Sona needs a friend in Demacia. I think that Taric was her friend prior to his Aspect transformation because it fits his character, he loves what's beautiful and stuff. Xin Zhao probably shares Ionian tales, poetry and history to let her know how it is from where she came. Ryze might be after Etwahl but I think it's far from being an easy task to enter into Demacian soil while being blue, emanating so much magic and holding so many scrolls, like, nope. x) Lux would be absolutely perfect as a close friend or... {{sticker:sg-lulu}}
Bonnìe (NA)
: concerning the star guardian thing. i just dont like how the default for a humanoid champions is white or very pale skin. i didnt know she had that version of the splash. i love that one. she couldve still had the whole sexy look (i think riot wanted?) and blue eye color with that face structure and features if thats what riot was going for. she would've been much more interesting and iconic imo if they kept her features that way. *sigh*
> [{quoted}](name=Bonnìe,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ctQst8Ow,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2018-04-07T00:31:38.888+0000) > > concerning the star guardian thing. i just dont like how the default for a humanoid champions is white or very pale skin. > > i didnt know she had that version of the splash. i love that one. she couldve still had the whole sexy look (i think riot wanted?) and blue eye color with that face structure and features if thats what riot was going for. > > she would've been much more interesting and iconic imo if they kept her features that way. *sigh* I see what you mean. Well, a white skin is often something considered "normal" or the standard choice in design. I don't think it is considered at being the best choice, it's just that it falls as a standard with no other purpose. However, for the SG line, I think it's just to match with Magical Girl thing stuff and that characters are humanized etc. I know that it doesn't mean that a non-human character couldn't be brown skinned or that their base skin color would be simply preserved, but it's hard to assume a skin color for an individual while another would be different. You'd need to justify it... or not ? See, it's actually weird of how a certain type of rules in design could be THAT defining when it comes to this. That's why it falls with the standard white skin, there's actually no "real" issues and it's up to devs to assume what would be their skin color since they aren't human. However, for a human being, racial features are part of their identity and it's really delicate to mess with this. Irelia is a beautiful young woman, but I don't see why she would be less attractive as an Asian woman. So, yeah, since characters can have multicolored hair, having blue eyes is not a problem like in any other fantasy world. But still, she's supposed to be Asian and in the process she became white. On this splashart she needed some tweeks and there, it was perfect. She had so much more personality on this one, really unique, I definitely can't understand how it came to the current one. Her current nose is not asian at all on her base, frostblade and lotus skin. @Riot What's wrong guys ? What happened ? :o
Nylisa (EUW)
: Yes in a city like Demacia,that it's people appears to be old fashioned and everything is about customs and traditions,people are not going to be happy that a non-Demacian might be the head of one of the leading families of Demacia sooner or later,considering other Buvelle family decendents died in Quinn latest story.some people will give her hard time or even attempt to kill her! This might be the case about her being adopted as well not everyone is going to be accepting of her.
> [{quoted}](name=Nylisa,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=O4luxQbV,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-06T22:11:34.040+0000) > > Yes in a city like Demacia,that it's people appears to be old fashioned and everything is about customs and traditions, i take it people are not going to be happy that a non-Demacian might be the head of one of the leading families of Demacia sooner or later,considering other Buvelle family decendents died in Quinn latest story.some people will give her hard time or even attempt to kill her! She is Ionian, and like Xin Zhao, she'll forcibly be prejudiced by the Demacian court or its citizens and rumors will flow. Well, I think she's mostly appreciated, but you know how it is, she's "different", she's not a true Demacian. That could be an important element of her new lore.
Nylisa (EUW)
: Thats what i like and want to see in Sona's lore, something away from the regular war and conflict and all the fighting in Runettera, we have too much of that lately, all the bloodshed and action and chaotic characters. Dont get me wrong im enjoying them but i wouldnt mind something more...normal.struggles of someone that is not a ancient being, a cosmic soul , a god , an undying monster, undefeatable entities and such..!
> [{quoted}](name=Nylisa,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=O4luxQbV,comment-id=00010003,timestamp=2018-04-06T19:31:33.450+0000) > > Thats what i like and want to see in Sona's lore, something away from the regular war and conflict and all the fighting in Runettera, we have too much of that lately, all the bloodshed and action and chaotic characters. > > Dont get me wrong im enjoying them but i wouldnt mind something more...normal.struggles of someone that is not a ancient being, a cosmic soul , a god , an undying monster, undefeatable entities and such..! I agree. It fits the character and it's consistent. Some characters that are not part of things that deals with important stuff at stake are good too. It doesn't mean she isn't important. She's part of one of the eminent house of nobility in Demacia while being one of the most renown music performer of her time. Plus, she has magic and the power to use Etwahl, a curious instrument that might be imbued with Rune World magic (theorized with the Ryze link) There's clear potential. Riot has yet to develop some other Demacian, like Xin Zhao who have one of the best background of the lore while being one of the strongest warrior of Runeterra. We'll have to wait. :)
darkdill (NA)
: Which do you think is snarkier: Aurelion Sol or Alarak?
3 Tears (NA)
: Noxus vs Ionia
It clearly echoes to the Vietnam War obviously. Ionia is one of the most particular place on Runeterra. Not only the people, but also its wildlife, creatures, spirits. Everything is linked in harmony and the land was angry. Even if Noxus is the strongest army of Runeterra, they came mostly unprepared and unaware of many important details. They should and could have won but Darkwill underestimated Ionia and was hurried to attack them. It was bound to fail. However, now that Swain seized control of Noxus, things will change, for the better. Ionia is not a priority, since troups got called back and the land have no beneficial purpose in the times to come. Well, in fact, Ionia has a lot to offer, but not for the moment. Noxus needs more power, military assets, technology. So, their focus will be turned upon Piltover and Zaun. Once they'll take over those areas, Ionia could be considered as a mean to enhance the attribute of their technology (Hextech) and to get manpower, soldiers etc. Noxus would easily crush Ionia after that. People are divided, weakened, no backup. A childsplay for Swain.
darkdill (NA)
: Regular reminder to Riot that we need Announcer Packs
I really loved so much the Gangplank announcer. It was so good. Couldn't agree more. :(
Bonnìe (NA)
: this was my issue the moment i saw new irelia. i was hoping they would keep or atleast better express her east asian/ionian heritage in her features i know there is a multitude of features women can have across asia, but, with the features already in game for all the women (mostly white) i thought they'd express those that haven't been explored yet. i dont get how people can understand humans like playing humans or humanoid champions, but when it comes to their facial features reflecting a real world ethnic group, thats suddenly too far and unnecessary. diversity is good. representation is good. for the sake of interesting variety. even soraka lulu and poppy get turned into white girls for star guardian. i was bored the second i saw kai'sa too.
> [{quoted}](name=Bonnìe,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ctQst8Ow,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-04-05T22:58:47.456+0000) > > this was my issue the moment i saw new irelia. > > i was hoping they would keep or atleast better express her east asian/ionian heritage in her features > > i know there is a multitude of features women can have across asia, but, with the features already in game for all the women (mostly white) > > i thought they'd express those that haven't been explored yet. > > i dont get how people can understand humans like playing humans or humanoid champions, but when it comes to their facial features reflecting a real world ethnic group, thats suddenly too far and unnecessary. > > diversity is good. representation is good. for the sake of interesting variety. > > even soraka lulu and poppy get turned into white girls for star guardian. > > i was bored the second i saw kai'sa too. The thing is that this change wasn't fair with any given reason but it would be nice to know what led them to this decision. It was the perfect opportunity to affirm something different, and most importantly, fitting for an Asian woman. And it's not even like they didn't thought about it. They know, more than any of us, that she IS asian. Have a look. https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2018/14/5/1523008037-asia.jpg At some point it was like that. WHY did they change her into a white girl while we already got so many and that she isn't "white" ? Standards ? It would be sad. There are plenty of champs that are white girls providing the top standards of beauty as a white woman, like Miss Fortune. Concerning the Star Guardian skins line, it's kinda different. Hair colors and stuff are anchored into japanese culture (Sailor Moon here for instance). Yordles are kinda particular, I mean, they're not part of the human kind, the rules are not really the same. Have a look at some skins from Lulu or Poppy. You can see that they have a white skin on some of them. Since they are not human, racial features cannot be linked to them. For Soraka it's also a particular case, and same thing, she already had some skins in which she has a white skin. But still, she's not human. But for Irelia, in the whole context, it's an apparent issue. Let's be honnest, in the current state of things, she's good looking, right. People tend to go with it as they can play and that the visuals are good. They are. But, not so many are concerned about details or what it represents when you don't pay attention to this kind of issue. So yeah, the question remains. I should have @ but I don't know who's in charge. It would be interesting to know what's the position on the matter from the dev team. :o
: Wait, did Whyte Lyon say that Swain planned for Urgot to be sent to Piltover, or did he plan for Urgot to become an anarchist loony that overthrew a mining company and went on a killing spree? Because the second one seems kinda a ridiculous prediction there.
The later but it's not that simple. Swain's "vision" of the whole thing was probably about how Urgot would grow from that. A chain-reaction that would provoke tension between Zaun and Piltover. So on and so forth, the results would be favorable for Noxus coveting Piltover. At first, it was to get rid of him, but, you know, if it was simply about that he would have annihilated Urgot with his demon power and there, done. Like Interlocutioner said "there may be more to it than the immediate benefit of aiding his coup". Put some emphasis on "benefit" and there you go, try to guess what's in Swain's mind.
: I think giving her interaction with Lux is one of the most sensible things they can do for her and I would love to see this because ~~I'm a filthy Sona x Lux shipper~~ I think it would be good for both of their characters. Lux is Sona's "biggest fan" so she would be so excited to meet her idol, but imagine her finding out her idol is also secretly a mage in Demacia, just like her. A sort of kindred spirit. I personally see Sona as having a bit of a melancholy air to her, so I think having Lux be her friend and spend time with her when she can, can help Sona through the hard times of Demacians being suspicious of her, of her magic. They can both be a reminder to each other that they aren't alone in their daily struggles. Seriously I think they should explore the potential between these two characters.
I'm Commander Shepard, and this is- Hum, yes, I like your hc. The interaction is clearly relevant.
: Yeah, no need to apologize Ganon, that was well said. I think both Urgot's fanaticism, _and_ his place within Noxus at the time, meant he needed to be dealt with. In a very unpleasant way for him. Also keep in mind that Swain thinks ahead (_at least_ five steps). So there may be more to it than the immediate benefit of aiding his coup. A few people have also pointed this out in the past. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} So no spoilers from me. Finally, to the OP: when we launch champions or champion updates, we have around 600 words to explain EVERYTHING about them. But of course, it never ends up being _everything_—not only because we need to make hard choices to hit our word budget, but... also because some things are best kept for future stories. On Swain's launch, the story we told focused more on the Trifarix (since we were also presenting Noxus as a whole, at the time). It fit in well. But the story of Swain and Urgot is still out there. Not to mention of Swain's coup, where he dealt with not only Urgot, but a frickin' DEMON, man!!
Oooh you~ It might be about Piltover. Seizing the city would prove a capital, if not absolute, advantage over all the other nations around Runeterra. Assets, technology, production, manpower, money, naval control etc. If Swain did plan this in advance, he flipped a coin, or actually knew how would grew Urgot from this. As a thoughtful man he created "options". If Zaun was to be in open conflict with Piltover by some sort of coup led by Urgot, it would in fact give an opportunity for Noxus to take over the city. Whatever would happen from the conflict, chances that it would fail are nearly impossible. The region is under control and both sides would be weakened, then, Noxus simply could do some quick paper work to make Piltover pledge under them, and if they don't want to they wouldn't be able to stop Noxus from taking over the city following the conflict. A masterful plan. However, we must consider that Urgot has... six legs and if he is five steps from realizing that... wait, he would just quickly realize that Swain is ten steps ahead... oh man, poor Urgot, he got played, clear and simple, twice. {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}}
Horidas (NA)
: I actually have a personal theory that Swain didn't sell Urgot out at all. Swain has NO mention of Urgot in his special interactions, which is strange. ***BUT*** What is Urgot's interaction with Swain? {{champion:6}} "I will not kneel to a deceiver." I mean, this can mainly be because he actually was deceived by Swain himself. But {{champion:7}} is ***THE*** deceiver. I think it may just be a coincidence. But, a really clever way to hide a potential twist.
Swain does have a special interaction with Urgot. Interesting theory tho but Whyte Lyon said it was confirmed by the writer that Swain did planed what happened to Urgot because reasons. :o
: As much as your opinion is the closest thing to accurate, the actual answer was confirmed by Interlocutioner (Swain & Urgot's writer) as simply because... > Swain saw Urgot as a fanatic who couldn't be swayed or reasoned with. Basically the core reason Urgot was exiled was that he's too much of a dogmatic (closed-minded) nut case to keep around. Which would make him a liability to the Empire and its new values. Since Urgot would have been at odds with Swain's Principles on Strength, especially with his flawed view on Might.
Oh it wasn't about my opinion or anything, I was just trying to describe what was implied by Swain's story. Urgot, as a great executioner under Darkwill's reign had a glorious life. It was clear that Urgot was a threat for Swain and that he needed to trick him into a trap. Details aren't developed that much, but from what is known we could actually guess what's the deal between them. :o
: I mean, yeah, that's kind of how it feels like for Sona right now. She's an awkward remnant of the old game and lore and still hasn't been updated to have any relevance in the new lore. Like, if the game was shipped with this new lore, it's hard to see how Sona would have even made it into the game at all. She just doesn't fit in anywhere right now since all of her lore--her backstory, quotes, involvement with Pentakill--are relics of a past where Summoner's and the Institute of War existed. Like right now on her character page, there's a quote from Swain about her music...but in this new lore, has Swain even heard her music? Is she even still allowed to travel around, especially to Noxus, to perform? It's all just kind of sad.
Hmmm maybe a concert in Piltover ? It's a kinda neutral city, so, that's the only possible case in which she could perform for a diverse audience. x) It's true that as a musician - using magic in Demacia.. - it would be difficult to imagine why she is a champion. But still, she's a noble girl and nothing is developped in her background. I guess we could imagine that, in a certain way, she has some conflicts like Fiora without being introduced in any large scale event. I mean, she could be used to get some assassins attempting to kill her and that she actually get rid of them herself most of the time by cutting them with her power. Stuff like that. x) So, yeah, she has nothing for her but if she was to get a lore update she'd need consistency towards what she is.
: So about Sona....
The thing is that she isn't really implicated in any sort of conflict. Still, it would be nice to know what she's doing as a member of the Demacian nobility. Some sort of "life in Demacia" thing and how she influences people in a good way. Actually, I'd like to see her as a friend of Lux, something like that.
: Nope, it's clearly stated that Swain sold him out. I guess a simple explanation was that Swain saw him as a threat to his rise to power, but I would've loved for Riot to delve a bit deeper into that and elaborate on it
Yes, Swain did led him into a trap, but it would be surprising that it was a direct order from him since he was not appreciated. So, Urgot was tricked into a trap by the great tactician. It could have been a nice touch to see how Swain got him to leave Noxus to fall in this trap and all, but from a global perspective it wasn't really necessary. :o
: So why did Swain betray Urgot?
Urgot was a great executioner under the reign of Darkwill. Swain planified to seize the throne, so he had to get rid of everything that could prevent him from doing it. Urgot has been sent to Zaun into a trap. Swain was mostly hated by many in Noxus as he came back from Ionia alive, crippled and disgraced by the Noxian failure. So, Swain didn't really betrayed him, he just took some precautions... :p In Swain's story, if you take some hindsight on the situation, Urgot has no political purpose, he's just a threat like any other element under Darkwill's reign. Then, speaking about Urgot wasn't necessary in the events.
: I don't disagree with anything you've said; in fact, the Varus comic pretty much confirms that their world was destroyed. My point is more about the way they are doing lore retcons; the other Darkin *do* have regions, so I don't see them leaving Aatrox out at this point. He already has backstory with Trynd in the Freljord, so the most obvious move would be the flesh that out and imply that Aatrox is "currently" (whatever that means in the current lore plan) residing there.
> [{quoted}](name=KempyreanPirate,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=w0wzucmn,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-05T15:31:00.654+0000) > > I don't disagree with anything you've said; in fact, the Varus comic pretty much confirms that their world was destroyed. > > My point is more about the way they are doing lore retcons; the other Darkin *do* have regions, so I don't see them leaving Aatrox out at this point. He already has backstory with Trynd in the Freljord, so the most obvious move would be the flesh that out and imply that Aatrox is "currently" (whatever that means in the current lore plan) residing there. I see. You know, it could work in a way that would perfectly fit to what you're saying. In fact, knowing that Darkin take over bodies, it would be great if Aatrox has taken over the body of a renown Freljordian. :o
: I doubt they'll come up with an entirely new region for him; the other two darkin are already integrated into other realms of Runeterra based on their backstories. I would imagine Aatrox will receive similar treatment; based on his current backstory (and as Stars Shaper already pointed out), they'll probably integrate him into the Freljord. Obviously, there's no requirement for them to do that; they could easily do a total re-write and put him somewhere else, but I doubt they'll leave him as a floating and mysterious player when they redo his lore.
> [{quoted}](name=KempyreanPirate,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=w0wzucmn,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-04-05T13:37:10.272+0000) > > I doubt they'll come up with an entirely new region for him; the other two darkin are already integrated into other realms of Runeterra based on their backstories. I would imagine Aatrox will receive similar treatment; based on his current backstory (and as Stars Shaper already pointed out), they'll probably integrate him into the Freljord. Obviously, there's no requirement for them to do that; they could easily do a total re-write and put him somewhere else, but I doubt they'll leave him as a floating and mysterious player when they redo his lore. I didn't say he'd need a new region or that Riot has to add a complete new region in the current setting. He came from another world/dimension/realm, but nothing was said about it. What if Darkins no longer have any world ? So, they can't belong to any new nation or maybe they can following their affinity to any of them, but, their motive, and most especially for Aatrox, is to prevent Runeterra to be consumed by what destroyed the Darkin world/dimension/realm. Most of the Darkin came to Runeterra to escape their world and fought the residents of this one to own it, but failed. Then, to prevent complete extinction, better "save" this world by making any inhabitants able to destroy what they couldn't. Aatrox is shown through Ionian, Noxian, Demacian, Shuriman and Freljordian tales. Putting him into a particular nation would need to be justified. Freljord would be a nice choice, because Aatrox might think that they could be able to defeat what destroyed his world. Why them ? They stopped the Watchers (said to be the creators of the Void or smt like that ) Revamping his roots and making him a Runeterra original being would be a loss of potential. Making Darkins rooted to Freljordian things would be odd since, actually, there are more Darkins in Ionia than anywhere else for the moment. So what's important are : No more original homeworld. What caused it. Darkin's motives coming to Runeterra. What is their "plan B", since they got rekt in Runeterra.
: Champion Regions - where is Aatrox?
We will learn more about where he came from. Darkin are from another world, so, maybe another dimension or something like that, like the Void or the Spirit Realm.
: Ugh, thats exactly one of those instances were it hurts the character more than it adds. I always thought Shyvanna and J4 had this more platonic thing going on. Why can we have a female/male friendship, without one side wanting more ?
> [{quoted}](name=CrazyFrogEye,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=7yEANkPn,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-04T16:03:04.963+0000) > > Ugh, thats exactly one of those instances were it hurts the character more than it adds. I always thought Shyvanna and J4 had this more platonic thing going on. Why can we have a female/male friendship, without one side wanting more ? Yeah I agree that characters should share a more friendly relationship without putting them together automatically when it's male/female. Shyvana and J4 is very cute tho. It means a lot in the "Demacian" context if they were to be together.
: Wait thats a thing ? Dont tell me thats a thing.
> [{quoted}](name=CrazyFrogEye,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=7yEANkPn,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2018-04-04T15:19:34.850+0000) > > Wait thats a thing ? Dont tell me thats a thing. Yes, and that's not even made up by the community. Both Quinn and Shyvana feel a little something for him.
Proctopus (EUW)
: Hey there, back again on this topic now after the new lores for Ionia just came out, as well as the dev diary video that I highly recommend if you're interested in the design and overall world of League of Legends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xRvnOQVAPQ I won't write a Bible, but it's just to clear some things out that even the developers of Riot confirmed. Just like Noxus, we get information about culture, design, everyday life etc. Everything is really beautiful... And really Asian inspired. The characters depicted are all very Asian looking, the overall "do not hurt and stay pacifist" mentality is obviously inspired by religion and spiritual culture that you find in Asia. So there, you have it, Ionia doesn't really exist yeah, but it's heavily influenced by Asian countries. Now that this is said, don't know if you checked Irelia new lore (that I highly recommend to read, loved it) she now has a full name and official family root : Xan Irelia. Following the ancestral and very proud cultures of family in Asia, Irelia is clearly confirmed as a proud Asian woman! There it is, Riot confirmed! Now as you know, all that needed to be pointed out has been said, it makes me ask myself even more question about her appearance and the choice of features.
> [{quoted}](name=Proctopus,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ctQst8Ow,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-04-03T19:50:30.927+0000) > > Hey there, back again on this topic now after the new lores for Ionia just came out, as well as the dev diary video that I highly recommend if you're interested in the design and overall world of League of Legends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xRvnOQVAPQ > > I won't write a Bible, but it's just to clear some things out that even the developers of Riot confirmed. > > Just like Noxus, we get information about culture, design, everyday life etc. Everything is really beautiful... And really Asian inspired. The characters depicted are all very Asian looking, the overall "do not hurt and stay pacifist" mentality is obviously inspired by religion and spiritual culture that you find in Asia. So there, you have it, Ionia doesn't really exist yeah, but it's heavily influenced by Asian countries. > > Now that this is said, don't know if you checked Irelia new lore (that I highly recommend to read, loved it) she now has a full name and official family root : Xan Irelia. Following the ancestral and very proud cultures of family in Asia, Irelia is clearly confirmed as a proud Asian woman! There it is, Riot confirmed! > > Now as you know, all that needed to be pointed out has been said, it makes me ask myself even more question about her appearance and the choice of features. Yep, it always has been the case but now that they did this devlog it's even more obvious. Ionia clearly is inspired by Asia and we could easily determine it by taking a look at champs or what was already known. So, it means what it means, Irelia IS Asian... BUT there's still the issue about how she is represented. That's why she suffers from the same exact thing that happened to Kai'sa. It's about the representation of different ethnicities. Not paying attention to racial features is an error of design. So, what led to those choices ? Why are they not represented with appropriate features ? That's still the question and it is only known by the designers in change. :o
: To say eve is demacian is a pretty ballsy statement as she comes from the shadow isles. Huh a demon who moves around who would think thats possible. Anyways her skin well it depends on what you are talking about with gothic, do you mean the architecture style? Well thats more demacia than her. Background only says the current environment of that skin and if thats the only establishment you have for eve then you need to readdress it. As for Kayn, both his base and his assassin form have black and blue as major color themes look it up. Also his shadow assassin form is explicitly after the style of zed as in his lore he seeks to return and claim leadership from zed, seeing himself being better and overshadowing his master eventually. So his combat style is largely based from his master's and the assassin form his him realizing that through the power of Rhaast. So that is actually pretty culturally Ionian, not the peaceful ionian but ionian none the less. And since her skin is called Shadow eveylnn when shes already a shadow creature that assumes a human form from years of exposure, it lends its cause to the shadow form and jutsu that zed employes and teaches his students.
> [{quoted}](name=Blackflameblade,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=aEWzfaAT,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-04T00:14:44.519+0000) > > To say eve is demacian is a pretty ballsy statement as she comes from the shadow isles. Huh a demon who moves around who would think thats possible. > > Anyways her skin well it depends on what you are talking about with gothic, do you mean the architecture style? Well thats more demacia than her. Background only says the current environment of that skin and if thats the only establishment you have for eve then you need to readdress it. > > As for Kayn, both his base and his assassin form have black and blue as major color themes look it up. Also his shadow assassin form is explicitly after the style of zed as in his lore he seeks to return and claim leadership from zed, seeing himself being better and overshadowing his master eventually. So his combat style is largely based from his master's and the assassin form his him realizing that through the power of Rhaast. > > So that is actually pretty culturally Ionian, not the peaceful ionian but ionian none the less. And since her skin is called Shadow eveylnn when shes already a shadow creature that assumes a human form from years of exposure, it lends its cause to the shadow form and jutsu that zed employes and teaches his students. Eve is no longer from the Shadow Isles. And I didn't say she IS Demacian. I said she is IN Demacia due to the informations that you could perceive in the background. It's a skin where she's some sort of succubi interpretation in the LoL universe, that's why she has this gothic themed stuff with bats and stuff. If she was to be some sort of Ionian au, it would be clearly shown through her design, such as Blood Moon skins. :o Yes but Zed doesn't have this characteristic. The blue color scheme might be representative of the counterpart to Rhaast power (blue vs red) since it is very characteristic from the scythe when he overcomes his power. So it's not a Ionian thing then. Oh ok, I get it, the "Shadow" Eve is associated with the shadows of Zed's order. Well, it's even more a coincidence because the skin was already Shadow Evelynn before. Thematically, Eve is still very gothic like with the succubi and bats thing. Nothing in the splashart apart from the blue color thingy stuff is actually similar. It's actually very far-fetched now that you explained the reasoning behind it but I get it at least. x) Interesting interpretation though.
: What I was talking about in similarity between the splash arts is how strikingly similar their color schemes are of black and blue even the hair spot of blue is only barely different being which side it is located on. While, yes originally noxian Kayn was drawn over because of the draft for the war in Ionia and became zed's disciple. it wouldn't be far fetched to say Eve sensed the pain and agony for the voyage, stole away, ended up in Ionia seeking more of that which she desires which is where she could become changed, but more according to what she was used to over in noxus.
> [{quoted}](name=Blackflameblade,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=aEWzfaAT,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-03T21:29:49.370+0000) > > What I was talking about in similarity between the splash arts is how strikingly similar their color schemes are of black and blue even the hair spot of blue is only barely different being which side it is located on. > > While, yes originally noxian Kayn was drawn over because of the draft for the war in Ionia and became zed's disciple. it wouldn't be far fetched to say Eve sensed the pain and agony for the voyage, stole away, ended up in Ionia seeking more of that which she desires which is where she could become changed, but more according to what she was used to over in noxus. But it still makes no sense, since the blue thingy stuff color scheme is due to the power awakened through Rhaast for Kayne. For Evelynn, well, that's right that she is oddly alike of the pattern but it's a complete coincidence in fact. Thematically it's still very off to Ionia. So, what I'm saying is that even if it's about Kayn or Eve, none of their thematics that you are talking about are actually Ionian. Shadow Eve is a gothic themed skin, she represents a succubi in the LoL universe. She's located in a Demacian infrastructure (background architecture seen in the splashart ) and we can see some Demacian guards as well. The Assassin Kayn form is obtained through the power of Rhaast entirely consumed by Kayn. And none of those is culturally Ionian. So I'd like to understand what seems Ionian to you in those ? I mean, I'm a bit confused. :o
: What are you talking about? What are you asking? XD
> [{quoted}](name=CoffeeMug,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=aEWzfaAT,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-03T20:50:02.817+0000) > > What are you talking about? What are you asking? XD I think that I'm actually mixing things up aswell. Irony is that I forgot about the "Garden of Forgetting" additional story. Mb xD
: Ahri did have a human lover. Didn't you read her lore ˝Garden of Forgetting˝ ? :O It's one of my favorite lore pieces made by RITO https://universe-meeps.leagueoflegends.com/v1/assets/images/ahri-short-story-artwork.jpg
> [{quoted}](name=CoffeeMug,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=aEWzfaAT,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-03T20:44:21.130+0000) > > Ahri did have a human lover. Didn't you read her lore ˝Garden of Forgetting˝ ? :O > It's one of my favorite lore pieces made by RITO > > https://universe-meeps.leagueoflegends.com/v1/assets/images/ahri-short-story-artwork.jpg The guy writting a whole thing on Vastayan ? Is he ? :o
: Eve doesn't feed of their souls,but their agony and pain.
> [{quoted}](name=CoffeeMug,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=aEWzfaAT,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-04-03T20:23:38.784+0000) > > Eve doesn't feed of their souls,but their agony and pain. Yeah, that's right, thanks. :o
: With eve its not really a need. Its a desire she pursues that feels like a need because of how pleasurable it is for her. As for the theme it matches almost 1 to 1 with base kayn so im not wrong in claiming it could happen in ionia since kayn is from Ionia too. Ahri wants to be human and curses her state because of what she did to her former lover. Eve is the opposite and would detest becoming human because that means becoming fallible and weak. Thus an ironic twist in the story of the one who wants it doesnt get it, but the one who doesnt want it does get it.
> [{quoted}](name=Blackflameblade,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=aEWzfaAT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-03T20:17:04.331+0000) > > With eve its not really a need. Its a desire she pursues that feels like a need because of how pleasurable it is for her. > > As for the theme it matches almost 1 to 1 with base kayn so im not wrong in claiming it could happen in ionia since kayn is from Ionia too. > > Ahri wants to be human and curses her state because of what she did to her former lover. Eve is the opposite and would detest becoming human because that means becoming fallible and weak. Thus an ironic twist in the story of the one who wants it doesnt get it, but the one who doesnt want it does get it. Matches with Kayn ? Which part of it tells you that ? Look at the splashart, you can see that she is in some sort of Demacian place and her attire is kinda Gothic themed. Hmmm are you actually talking about the blue thingy stuff ? It's the only thing that makes her kinda look alike. Kayne is not Ionian, he's a Noxian. The source of his power is from a Darkin. The blue stuff thing is the magic obtained through domination over the Darkin power. Did you read about Ahri updated lore ? She has no lover or anything. She's alone and fear the nature of her power, she now seek answers. The "lover" stuff is a memory from a hunter she killed by stealing his life essence.
: Then {{champion:136}} appears xD
> [{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=QIAt4koH,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-04-03T19:38:45.370+0000) > > Then {{champion:136}} appears xD He's still enslaved by his crown, isn't it ? Maybe Leblanc did this aswell... x)
: Ionia and Shadow Evelynn
Why Shadow Evelynn ? Shadow Evelynn is gothic themed, so, culturally it's linked to Europe styles. Gothic architecture is shared by Noxus or Demacia. Ahri has a different perception of her power at the end of her story. She knows that her power is not made for that. Evelynn is a demon that NEEDS to feed on the souls of her preys to live and grow stronger.
: It wasn't canon to begin with. I'm starting to think it was {{champion:7}} who infiltrated Ionia too and saw in Yasuo a good scapegoat to break the armony of the land.
People controlling him aren't even known. It wouldn't be a surprise that in fact Leblanc is responsible for Jhin's release, yes. Soon or later, all around Runeterra, the pawns will fall one after the other. Kings, Masters, Guardians, Keepers, Gods ? Leblanc need assets around each factions. In Ionia, it could be Jhin. Free rein for Jhin's twisted mind with his own country, a beautiful canvas. The Eye of Twilight is far from being a small threat. Order of Shadow as well. So on and so forth, nothing must hinder the Pale Woman plan.
: Riven killing Yasuo's master no longer canon?
What if Jhin actually killed him ? An important detail about Jhin that many people seem to forgot is that Jhin is a good swordsman as the heir of his father's style. What if the people in charge of his release - using him as an asset like stated in his story - ordered to eliminate eminent masters, such as Master Yi or Master Souma ?
Ganondorf (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=xu6ZE94W,comment-id=000600010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-02T22:16:15.006+0000) > > 1. > Vastaya might have roots in the spirit realm and magic powers,but in the end they are still mortals.And grouping angels together with catpeople just feels like it doesn't fit the angel-theme > > 2. > Well but the corpse of Varus at the bottom of the lake seemed very human as well.Sure it was bigger than a regular human,but other than that,it was pretty humanoid.Anyway,if there are huamnoid darkins,then there is no reason why angels can't be humanoid.It wouldn't even need to be so that all angels are human-like,they could easily say that Kayle&Morganas forms are forms that adapted to the humans in runeterra or just redesign them to be less human-like. > > 3. > But totem poles regularly featured human faces as well(similarly many egypt gods were also humanlike).You say that the idea behind them is to have these animilastic forces of nature,but that is only an assumption that you made. > Also I don't see the whole "why aren't they vastayan"-thing as much of a problem.I mean people asked the very same question about Volibear and it was easily explained that he is now a demigod.So how would it be any different for Kayle or Morgana? > > 4./5. > Well of course a new faction would be a rather delicate matter,though it also depends on how much this faction even affects runeterra. > I mean you could argue that Rengars tribe the kiilash are a new faction now,but they barely matter for the overall world. > And like I said,they could be the anti-thesis to the darkin(heck they could be the reason why the darkin felt the need to attack runeterra and why the darkin race seemingly went extinct even in their homeworld). > > Adding them to ionia doesn't fit that well in my opinion,as Kayles theme is that of an archangel clad in full armor,which would look kinda out of place among a bunch of samurais,but then again there have been outliers like this in the past(like Xin Zhao) > > > > Overall i just think that vastaya are too....mundane by now to be compared to angels,their whole species just feels too grounded in the mortal world. I think that you see Vastayan as too much of a simple kind of people. Sky Tribes are yet to be developed and nothing tells us that they are that mundane. Ionia is called the "First Lands". The angel thematic could be linked with the whole magic stuff and creation. Like, you know, Bible stuff and thing. Vastayan were the first to be here and so on etc. In fact, I don't understand what's not working for you while.. I don't know, if you compare them to anything else, Vastayan are the first thing to come in mind in the LoL universe. Why it shouldn't work ? Magic, bird wings.. Sky Tribes could be some sort of god-like Vastayans, and nothing implied that there wasn't any highly ranked people considered as god-like, like angels or even a supreme entity for those people. Kayle has an armor, but I think it's easier to change an armor than the whole design to fit a different kind of race, like Darkins. Her armor could be more Ionian in its design. But still, Vastayan are in fact far from being simple beings of the mortal realm, it's even emphasized in their backstory. I mean, there's nothing preventing them from being some sort of angels as Vastayan. Concerning the Demi-god stuff, it's still odd to let them be very human-like while there are Ornn and his siblings. If there's something really off, it's this. So the question "Why aren't they Vastayan?" would be relevant and people would be confused. Not because it's hard to understand, but simply because they could have been Vastayan, I mean, Kayle and Morgana are more like Xayah and Rakan than Anivia. It's more delicate than with Voli. They are closer to Vastayan than the Freljord mythology gods. However, I'm more into your Darkins counterpart because it goes nicely with the thematic of angels and demons. Nothing tells us that it couldn't be possible because it could actually be a nice explanation to their motives like you said. It's still an important change. Vastayan involves fewer modifications in their design. Lore-wise, there are still a lot of possibilities and most especially the undevelopped SKy Tribes part. What they look like is the most important thing to take into account if they were to fit any existing faction. Even if Varus is a very humaoid like Darkin, and that the Angels counterpart would be somehow linked to them, it would be weird to let them be simple human like women and that's it. They'd need some advanced special features to make them different ( and skins are to be taken into account). Freljord entities would be weird. Morgana would be somehow redundant with Lissandra and it would be... not that good. We'll see that on the Aatrox update, if they were to be added to the Darkins lore. If not, Vastayan would definitely be the most likely to happen IF they were to be added to an existing faction.
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=xu6ZE94W,comment-id=00060001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-03T15:56:54.538+0000) > > Well I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. > I still disagree with your opinion and doubt that you could convince me that the sky tribes could really feel angelic,when you know that they are essentially just magical bird people,just like the kiilash are magical cat people,even if they are more powerful than other vastaya. > > I wouldn't count on Kayle&Morgana being part of the Aatrox lore update,but they are likely going to get a VGU this year (as some of their data has been changed similar to how Irelias,Akalis and Nunus data was changed),so if that happens we'll see what Riot has planned for them. Angels are magical bird people, isn't it ? If put like this. x) The point was that in the CURRENT state of things Kayle and Morgana are closer to Vastayan than anything else. It's that simple and I didn't thought about it before this thread. If they had some links to darkin, Riot might let some hints on the matter when they'll release the Darkin lore update coming for Aatrox. It would be weird to not mention them in a way, if you see what I mean. They might be reworked next year tho. :o
: Mordekaiser; How was he in life and what lead him to become the Iron Revenant
I like to think that nothing to a few things were known of him before what makes him so terrifying in legends and tales. It would be like Mordekaiser was created through the horrors of battle. What was called a man with no other purpose than power in all its forms. It is said in the Leblanc updated lore that she helped the barbarian tribes to defeat Mordekaiser around the time of the Darkin War. > Though they do not often learn the origins of their matron, many have uncovered legends of a pale sorceress who aided the broken barbarian tribes, in their struggle against the infamous Iron Revenant subjugating lands already ravaged by the darkin. It means that around this time, a lot of powerful beings were at war and that the human race was obviously part of it for their survival. Ascended and Darkin warriors. Runeterra is ravaged by countless wars involving them and mere humans. In the end, Ascended warriors triumphed just as much as humans did because they are still there. The important part is this. > who aided the broken barbarian tribes, in their struggle against the infamous Iron Revenant subjugating lands already ravaged by the darkin. Humans part of the war were barbarian tribes and our boy Mordekaiser is said to control those lands. What does it means ? Being said that he was once mortal is enough to say that he was human. He was a man in the likes of Sion. Tall and muscular, an unstoppable war machine. However. It is also said that it has been centuries since he has been the Iron Revenant and the turning point of the events at the Immortal Bastion. He was no longer human. My point was it could have been better if Morde made a name from those battle. Like, he was actually so strong that he could defeat darkin and ascended warriors. Nothing could stop him. But it is still relevant. Just that he was already the Iron Revenant. If a change was to be made in his lore, I'd like to see this. When did he became so powerful ? Which events made him so strong then ? It could be the Rune Wars, the most brutal period in the history of Runeterra. Devastation, powerful magic etc etc. Survival of the fittest. Mordekaiser could be from this time. He was so strong and violent that even magic couldn't kill him. Defeating other warlords - enslaving what could be of good use, like mages for instance - gave him newer ressources, such as magic, and it would justify his enchanted Nightfall. Nightfall could be in fact imbued with Rune magic or something. Rune magic is said to shape landscapes, so it could be Nightfall which formed the Immortal Bastion. I'm focusing on important events to create what made him so strong and terrifying. He needs to be involved with something said to be a large scale horrific event in which he became Mordekaiser. A man that no one knows, or at least, no one to attest about who he was. He was Mordekaiser as a human and had accomplished a lot to earn that title. Rune Wars. Darkin. Ascended. Humans. None of them erased Mordekaiser from history, and now he's waiting the moment when he could finally take over Valoran and the entirety of Runeterra.
: Question on Shen's Personality/Story for RIOT | Thank You
I think that Shen has yet to fully understand balance. He's very strong and is actually worthy of his power as the Eye of Twilight but... keeping and neglecting his emotions might be in fact not be in favor of what balance truly is. Doing what's right was never against balance and that's why Shen's father captured Jhin or let himself killed by Zed. He didn't do that because of balance, even if balance is part of the whole Ionian culture in fact. He did it because it was right and that it was better this way. Judgement through balance is a tough task and we can actually see Shen being concerned about his emotions towards Zed or what his pupils are going through with their own distinct judgement. Kennen thinks that Zed can have redemption while Akali thinks that Zed would be better dead. Shen being indecisive is actually not doing his task as the guardian of balance or... is he ? Is this really about balance in the end ? Cooperating with Zed against Jhin might help him find his answer to truly understand what should be made in the sake of "balance". He knows what it means to take care about balance and can actually preserve what balance is for, but he has yet to know to what extent it should be applied. If he wasn't worthy of his task he wouldn't be able to use this power from the beginning. What really matters between balance and his heart. He can't allow himself to act against the rules but at the same time he can't deny his feelings. Balance is a natural thing and his duty is to take care about it. There's a hand in between. Becomming the Eye of Twilight prepares you to act for perfect balance, not letting your emotions do the job... but is that it ? Shen needs to learn something and it is yet to be developed. I hope that the Akali VGU will add some background to the matter because Shen plays an important role in the LoL universe that you could compare to Aspects of the Mt.Targon. It's always nice to add some content to the ninja fam.
GreenLore (EUW)
: 1. Vastaya might have roots in the spirit realm and magic powers,but in the end they are still mortals.And grouping angels together with catpeople just feels like it doesn't fit the angel-theme 2. Well but the corpse of Varus at the bottom of the lake seemed very human as well.Sure it was bigger than a regular human,but other than that,it was pretty humanoid.Anyway,if there are huamnoid darkins,then there is no reason why angels can't be humanoid.It wouldn't even need to be so that all angels are human-like,they could easily say that Kayle&Morganas forms are forms that adapted to the humans in runeterra or just redesign them to be less human-like. 3. But totem poles regularly featured human faces as well(similarly many egypt gods were also humanlike).You say that the idea behind them is to have these animilastic forces of nature,but that is only an assumption that you made. Also I don't see the whole "why aren't they vastayan"-thing as much of a problem.I mean people asked the very same question about Volibear and it was easily explained that he is now a demigod.So how would it be any different for Kayle or Morgana? 4./5. Well of course a new faction would be a rather delicate matter,though it also depends on how much this faction even affects runeterra. I mean you could argue that Rengars tribe the kiilash are a new faction now,but they barely matter for the overall world. And like I said,they could be the anti-thesis to the darkin(heck they could be the reason why the darkin felt the need to attack runeterra and why the darkin race seemingly went extinct even in their homeworld). Adding them to ionia doesn't fit that well in my opinion,as Kayles theme is that of an archangel clad in full armor,which would look kinda out of place among a bunch of samurais,but then again there have been outliers like this in the past(like Xin Zhao) Overall i just think that vastaya are too....mundane by now to be compared to angels,their whole species just feels too grounded in the mortal world.
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=xu6ZE94W,comment-id=000600010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-02T22:16:15.006+0000) > > 1. > Vastaya might have roots in the spirit realm and magic powers,but in the end they are still mortals.And grouping angels together with catpeople just feels like it doesn't fit the angel-theme > > 2. > Well but the corpse of Varus at the bottom of the lake seemed very human as well.Sure it was bigger than a regular human,but other than that,it was pretty humanoid.Anyway,if there are huamnoid darkins,then there is no reason why angels can't be humanoid.It wouldn't even need to be so that all angels are human-like,they could easily say that Kayle&Morganas forms are forms that adapted to the humans in runeterra or just redesign them to be less human-like. > > 3. > But totem poles regularly featured human faces as well(similarly many egypt gods were also humanlike).You say that the idea behind them is to have these animilastic forces of nature,but that is only an assumption that you made. > Also I don't see the whole "why aren't they vastayan"-thing as much of a problem.I mean people asked the very same question about Volibear and it was easily explained that he is now a demigod.So how would it be any different for Kayle or Morgana? > > 4./5. > Well of course a new faction would be a rather delicate matter,though it also depends on how much this faction even affects runeterra. > I mean you could argue that Rengars tribe the kiilash are a new faction now,but they barely matter for the overall world. > And like I said,they could be the anti-thesis to the darkin(heck they could be the reason why the darkin felt the need to attack runeterra and why the darkin race seemingly went extinct even in their homeworld). > > Adding them to ionia doesn't fit that well in my opinion,as Kayles theme is that of an archangel clad in full armor,which would look kinda out of place among a bunch of samurais,but then again there have been outliers like this in the past(like Xin Zhao) > > > > Overall i just think that vastaya are too....mundane by now to be compared to angels,their whole species just feels too grounded in the mortal world. I think that you see Vastayan as too much of a simple kind of people. Sky Tribes are yet to be developed and nothing tells us that they are that mundane. Ionia is called the "First Lands". The angel thematic could be linked with the whole magic stuff and creation. Like, you know, Bible stuff and thing. Vastayan were the first to be here and so on etc. In fact, I don't understand what's not working for you while.. I don't know, if you compare them to anything else, Vastayan are the first thing to come in mind in the LoL universe. Why it shouldn't work ? Magic, bird wings.. Sky Tribes could be some sort of god-like Vastayans, and nothing implied that there wasn't any highly ranked people considered as god-like, like angels or even a supreme entity for those people. Kayle has an armor, but I think it's easier to change an armor than the whole design to fit a different kind of race, like Darkins. Her armor could be more Ionian in its design. But still, Vastayan are in fact far from being simple beings of the mortal realm, it's even emphasized in their backstory. I mean, there's nothing preventing them from being some sort of angels as Vastayan. Concerning the Demi-god stuff, it's still odd to let them be very human-like while there are Ornn and his siblings. If there's something really off, it's this. So the question "Why aren't they Vastayan?" would be relevant and people would be confused. Not because it's hard to understand, but simply because they could have been Vastayan, I mean, Kayle and Morgana are more like Xayah and Rakan than Anivia. It's more delicate than with Voli. They are closer to Vastayan than the Freljord mythology gods. However, I'm more into your Darkins counterpart because it goes nicely with the thematic of angels and demons. Nothing tells us that it couldn't be possible because it could actually be a nice explanation to their motives like you said. It's still an important change. Vastayan involves fewer modifications in their design. Lore-wise, there are still a lot of possibilities and most especially the undevelopped SKy Tribes part. What they look like is the most important thing to take into account if they were to fit any existing faction. Even if Varus is a very humaoid like Darkin, and that the Angels counterpart would be somehow linked to them, it would be weird to let them be simple human like women and that's it. They'd need some advanced special features to make them different ( and skins are to be taken into account). Freljord entities would be weird. Morgana would be somehow redundant with Lissandra and it would be... not that good. We'll see that on the Aatrox update, if they were to be added to the Darkins lore. If not, Vastayan would definitely be the most likely to happen IF they were to be added to an existing faction.
: Riven killing Yasuo's master no longer canon?
Janna killed him, everyone knows that. {{champion:40}}
Jango Mage (EUNE)
: I'd love to see a champion from the Blessed Isles
The Ruined King is not from the Blessed Isles. Maokai and Yorick are here to provide a certain glimpse of what they miss from back then. Adding the Ruined King would mostly add some background to the current state of the occupants of the Shadow Isles, but mostly about where he comes from, with Hecarim and Kalista... and his wife. So, I think that what you are asking for is currently provided by our boys Yorick and Maokai. Would it be relevant to add another character doing the same thing ? Yes but how ? And most importantly, how the hell is he/she not affected by this while wandering the Isles ? x)
GreenLore (EUW)
: **1. About the skytribes:** The thing is that even if the skytribes are super powerful and have a godlike attitude to the lower world,they'd be still mortal beings and even descendants of humanity,which just wouldn't fit an angel. And honestly angels are a lot more than just "people with wings",they are holy beings usually living in higher planes of existence,embodiments of virtues,etc. Saying angels are just bird people with magic powers is like saying that demons and devils are just magical goat-people. **2.Darkins being otherworldly too** Varus is very humanlike(and even his ghost and corpse looked very humanlike in the video),so Darkins appreantly have wildly differing appearances and the same could easily go for angels. Also "different world" does not equal "different planet",it could easily just be another plane of existence(similar to most modern depictions of heaven and hell). Heck considering that the darkins are usually designed after modern depictions of demons it would actually make sense to have the angels be their counterpart. **3.Demigods** Ornn has a completely humanlike torso and I don't see why there can't be a few completely humanlike demigods as well.I mean humans are essentially animals,just like Bears or birds,so why would it be ok to have a demigod look like a bear,but not one looking like a human?(Also the shuriman ascended are not real demigods,as they were once humans that simply transformed into beings that are comparable to a demigod). **4.New faction** Well it wouldn't really be new,since it is already part of the lore.And they did essentially add already small factions to the game,with Noxus now reigning over a lot of smaller countries,the buhru islands being near Bilgewater,the targonian space empire being a thing and the darkin homeworld getting introduced **5.adding them to an existing faction** I doubt this will happen.Yes they did this with some champs,but Tarics homeworld was completely empty,as it was just another world with humans and thats as far as its description went and the other champs already fitted into other factions without problems. But Kayle?Sure you could say Demacia would be fine,but then you run into the problem that Demacia is against magic and anything magical,so Kayle wouldn't really fit that. Besides we also had retcons that did not add the champion to an existing faction in the form of Annie(who is still not a noxian character) or Evelynn(who was actually removed from one of the existing factions and was made an independent champ instead)
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=xu6ZE94W,comment-id=0006000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-02T20:01:12.401+0000) > > **1. About the skytribes:** > The thing is that even if the skytribes are super powerful and have a godlike attitude to the lower world,they'd be still mortal beings and even descendants of humanity,which just wouldn't fit an angel. > And honestly angels are a lot more than just "people with wings",they are holy beings usually living in higher planes of existence,embodiments of virtues,etc. > Saying angels are just bird people with magic powers is like saying that demons and devils are just magical goat-people. > > > **2.Darkins being otherworldly too** > Varus is very humanlike(and even his ghost and corpse looked very humanlike in the video),so Darkins appreantly have wildly differing appearances and the same could easily go for angels. > Also "different world" does not equal "different planet",it could easily just be another plane of existence(similar to most modern depictions of heaven and hell). > Heck considering that the darkins are usually designed after modern depictions of demons it would actually make sense to have the angels be their counterpart. > > > **3.Demigods** > Ornn has a completely humanlike torso and I don't see why there can't be a few completely humanlike demigods as well.I mean humans are essentially animals,just like Bears or birds,so why would it be ok to have a demigod look like a bear,but not one looking like a human?(Also the shuriman ascended are not real demigods,as they were once humans that simply transformed into beings that are comparable to a demigod). > > **4.New faction** > Well it wouldn't really be new,since it is already part of the lore.And they did essentially add already small factions to the game,with Noxus now reigning over a lot of smaller countries,the buhru islands being near Bilgewater,the targonian space empire being a thing and the darkin homeworld getting introduced > > > **5.adding them to an existing faction** > I doubt this will happen.Yes they did this with some champs,but Tarics homeworld was completely empty,as it was just another world with humans and thats as far as its description went and the other champs already fitted into other factions without problems. > But Kayle?Sure you could say Demacia would be fine,but then you run into the problem that Demacia is against magic and anything magical,so Kayle wouldn't really fit that. > Besides we also had retcons that did not add the champion to an existing faction in the form of Annie(who is still not a noxian character) or Evelynn(who was actually removed from one of the existing factions and was made an independent champ instead) 1. Vastayan are actually more than mere mortals. They are linked to the spirit realm. They need to live with the harmony of magic and the physical realm. So, the "Angels" thematic could work, physically with their symbolic, with the consistency of the LoL universe ofc. The spirit realm and stuff. It's perfectly fitting in fact. 2. Varus is very special. The cinematic from his lore update is kinda weird. It could mean a lot of things. Since Varus was dormant and that Val and Kai penetrated his prison, it could, in fact, have altered what he is at this very moment. That's why he has a very vague appearance. We don't know. It's true that we don't really know yet what are Darkins and the lore update comming will help us with it (can't wait!!) They could be from another realm, like the Void and the spirit realm. Kayle and Morgana would still need a pretty advanced revamping in their design... and curiously enough, I feel that Kayle would not fit because of Aatrox, I don't know. We'll see that. But adding a counterpart to Darkins with your heaven and hell perspective is quite good and interesting. :o 3. The idea around those demi-god are really about those animalistic entities. Like totemic things or aspects. A notion of the original world made by primal and wild things, like those legends. It would be kinda intrusive to put Kayle and Morgana in the Freljord mythology without making them somehow animalistic. People would still be like "why aren't they Vastayan?" something like that. It doesn't fit in the thematic. 4/5. Concerning factions... it's quite delicate. There could be a new one, but, what would be the point while they share some physical traits with Vastayan in the actual lore ? There could be some reasons but they need to be coherent. There's a difference between different places part of an existing nation and places where there's another faction independant from all the stuff happening around them. Adding a whole new faction to the current lore seem to be quite difficult, to keep a cohesive aspect of Riot's current lore. It's true that adding Kayle to the current Demacia would be weird in fact yeah, that's right. But if she were to be Vastayan for instance, located in Ionia, there'd be no problem. Morgana trying to break the harmony between the spirit realm and Kayle trying to keep it, that's relevant. So, Riot will obviously need to wonder where Kayle and Morg could fit in their current lore. Personally, in the current lore and just by taking their current design, I'd say they'd be Vastayan. I'm not against new factions and stuff or transforming them into really different things, it's just that they'd need a consequent change following what they'd become. So, I'm just here trying to say that the easiest path would be making them into Vastayan, because there's no real issue for this change.
: Can I ask, since ionia doesn't seem to have a government at least in the central federal sense, who are the people behind releasing and arming jhin? Is it just one of many factions, or is there some kind of higher alliance or what
> [{quoted}](name=EROTIC RAID BOSS,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AQ9WlI87,comment-id=000500000002,timestamp=2018-04-02T16:49:06.039+0000) > > Can I ask, since ionia doesn't seem to have a government at least in the central federal sense, who are the people behind releasing and arming jhin? Is it just one of many factions, or is there some kind of higher alliance or what Yes, very interesting question that I always had in mind. If Ionia is fragmented by different kind of groups, maybe one of them in charge of the territory in which Jhin was imprisoned had the excellent idea to free him and make things change... {{champion:202}}
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Ganondorf

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