Cørnman (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=bjuEgLBF,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-09-15T23:18:54.071+0000) > > I don't think Taliya intended gameplay was that of a burst mage. > > She was defined, by Riot themselves, as a "shove&roam midlaner", and they took away her ability to shove, killing the entire point of the champion. Shove and roam has been proven to be very uninteractive to play against. And she is my main champion.
> [{quoted}](name=Cørnman,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=bjuEgLBF,comment-id=000b00000002,timestamp=2019-09-19T10:49:36.811+0000) > > Shove and roam has been proven to be very uninteractive to play against. And she is my main champion. Fair. But then again, that was the entire point of the champion, the pillar she was designed around. Lastly, theres nothing wrong with shove&roam playstyles, the worst is thst theyre boring.
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cG7AnpnU,comment-id=00090002,timestamp=2019-09-19T10:58:31.668+0000) > > Revenue loss isn't indicative of anything, if we don't know what they are investing. > > Not to deny their player base is dwindling, because the game has definitely been going downhill for years. > > But we know they have a second game in development, which I hope is not only mobile league. This game employs the best part of old League's team (Morello's working there), and an hoard of newly hired developers. Those workers must be paid, and the game they're working on does not generate revenue yet. > > Now, if they are developing the biggest MMORPG in history, the time spent and the costs of their investment... Still makes some sense (the "S" in Riot GameS was being worked on... How many years? Too many, it's almost ridiculous). If they are going to release mobile league, a fighting or card game... They are over. A fighting game could be interesting too. Not reall a Mortal Combat style. Though i believe some people would love that, but i think more like an Overwatch, or Team Fortress style. MMO, or even SP RPG also a good path. Considering just how big the story behind the LoL. Though MMO is risky as fuck. Lots of competition, and large maintenance costs. Mobile league is a sure profit, and they would be fools not to make. On the asian market mobile games are damn popular. And tons of players will have mobile LoL. The card game is my biggest fear. I hate that. Pretty much all of them is just a big P2W with luck. Even Heartstone. You can farm through 10k. games for the good cards or buy them, and unlock them in 10 minutes.
> [{quoted}](name=The Kombinator,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cG7AnpnU,comment-id=000900020000,timestamp=2019-09-19T11:20:36.096+0000) > > A fighting game could be interesting too. Not reall a Mortal Combat style. Though i believe some people would love that, but i think more like an Overwatch, or Team Fortress style. > > MMO, or even SP RPG also a good path. Considering just how big the story behind the LoL. Though MMO is risky as fuck. Lots of competition, and large maintenance costs. > > Mobile league is a sure profit, and they would be fools not to make. On the asian market mobile games are damn popular. And tons of players will have mobile LoL. > > The card game is my biggest fear. I hate that. Pretty much all of them is just a big P2W with luck. Even Heartstone. You can farm through 10k. games for the good cards or buy them, and unlock them in 10 minutes. Card or fighting games interest some, but they cant justify a 6 years or so developement, and surely cant make profit out of such an investment. Only a direct WoW competitor is viable. Mobile games are free money since in some part of the world working to death is the norm... but mobile games are undeniably low quality, and generally uninteresting. The limitdness of the controls themselves condems mobile games to be knock offs of real ones.
: Not defending riot, but they lost $700million in revenue last year https://www.statista.com/statistics/806975/lol-revenue/ Edit since 7 down votes doesnt make much since: Literally still against if they remove PvE gamemodes. (I commented on it originally) https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/hLGAeHTA-quick-gameplay-thoughts-august-23?comment=009e I'm just saying from their business perspective they lost money.
> [{quoted}](name=steven4547466,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cG7AnpnU,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-09-18T19:30:35.944+0000) > > Not defending riot, but they lost $700million in revenue last year https://www.statista.com/statistics/806975/lol-revenue/ Revenue loss isn't indicative of anything, if we don't know what they are investing. Not to deny their player base is dwindling, because the game has definitely been going downhill for years. But we know they have a second game in development, which I hope is not only mobile league. This game employs the best part of old League's team (Morello's working there), and an hoard of newly hired developers. Those workers must be paid, and the game they're working on does not generate revenue yet. Now, if they are developing the biggest MMORPG in history, the time spent and the costs of their investment... Still makes some sense (the "S" in Riot GameS was being worked on... How many years? Too many, it's almost ridiculous). If they are going to release mobile league, a fighting or card game... They are over.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Balance team is buffing TOO MUCH
Also, if we dare going into the details of the changes, they're buffing once again Vayne's ultimate AD steroid. This means that they refuse to learn from the very mistakes they acknowledged. When the AD steroid of Vayne gets buffed, she becomes an assassin carry 3 hitting everything. That's not the first time the AD steroid gets buffed, every time with the same result: Vayne stacks on-hit burst and crit, and her counterplay disappears. You might argue that any counterplay Vayne had was gone with the insane "50% crd on Q during ult " buff for her Chinese-appealing pReSTiGe skin, and that would be an argument as fair as sad.
Rioter Comments
: If mobile league is the celebration for the 10 year anniversary. Im done.
"10 years anniversary, for a videogame... Wow! I expect something major, and generous!" *Looks at Tencent and Riot's recent EA quality brand monetization schemes* "It's probably mobile league, to cash off Chinese overworked labourers desperate for a bit of fun during 15 minute of pause between workshifts" I wouldn't be bothered if it was mobile league **and** something else. If it's just mobile league, well, Riot's done. There's no coming back from that level of being a trash, lazy, greedy company. It's several, too many years they are working on "Putting the S in Riot GameS". If their only piece of content is a mobile game, the road onwards is only downhill. And I pretty much expect some special gifts to the loyal player base. On such big recurrence it is **almost** required by common decency.
Cørnman (NA)
: While fun to play pre 8.11 going against her and Sol was the most toxic and cancerous lanes to go against because they would afk shove lane since lvl 2 and roam, while the enemy laner was stuck under tower trying to last hit. However, I do wish the AoE of her Q (among other things removed from her kit) to return in a much more healthier state so she doesn't feel as bad to play. That is not to say she is weak though (she isn't), but the overall experience is not what most people fell in love with.
> [{quoted}](name=Cørnman,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=bjuEgLBF,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-09-15T17:40:33.077+0000) > > While fun to play pre 8.11 going against her and Sol was the most toxic and cancerous lanes to go against because they would afk shove lane since lvl 2 and roam, while the enemy laner was stuck under tower trying to last hit. > > However, I do wish the AoE of her Q (among other things removed from her kit) to return in a much more healthier state so she doesn't feel as bad to play. That is not to say she is weak though (she isn't), but the overall experience is not what most people fell in love with. I don't think Taliya intended gameplay was that of a burst mage. She was defined, by Riot themselves, as a "shove&roam midlaner", and they took away her ability to shove, killing the entire point of the champion.
: Can we make SoloQ solo only?
Actually making soloq solo would also make flex more desirable to play... If other changes were to be implemented. League is an extremely time committing game. The ranking process is an insane grind. Trying to improve can be a slow process. Even if no improvement is needed, climbing can still take a lot of time, especially with increased trolls and toxicity (and forced 50% wr coff coff). Straight up **doubling** the ranking efforts required by introducing a separate queque inevitably condemns one of the two into being irrelevant. Solo is the only rank that matters, nobody is going to waste time on flex. So, we push all duos in flex, because this increases a lot the fairness and integrity of a solo ladder. This gives flex a reason to be played. Meanwhile, **we tie flex and solo ranks**. Example: if you hit diamond in solo, your rank in flex can't be lower than platinum. At the same time, hitting diamond in flex grants platinum elo in solo.
: I'm never buying Little Legend Eggs ever again.
Riot lately went full corporate greed. It's not EA, but it is uncomfortably close to it. So now, we as customers already know what their actions will be in the future. We're aware they'll try to exploit buyers, milk whales, and cut corners everywhere (legendary skins with recycled animations, yikes). This might sound ruthless, but if you fall for those tactics, you are the problem. Not even part of it, you are the problem itself. Riot is out there for profits, and if you are easy profit, you're gonna be scammed. It's not even hard recognizing such schemes; dropping 70 bucks on a RNG system should have rang a bell a bit earlier...
Aizo (NA)
: Hey! I'm a Grandmaster Maokai OTP and I have a few ideas how to make this champion more interesting
I respect you for playing a toplane tank. They're a mith at this point... How many years did this damage meta last? That said, I dislike your proposed changes, especially the skillshot, targetable W. For as weird as it sounds, to me Maokai is its W. That simple, super satisfying spell is what I (used to) play him for. My personal proposal is to keep it simple and familiar, because in all honesty there's nothing wrong in Maokai's base kit. His inability to survive the lane or the teamfights is a direct consequence of the damage meta, in which a tank gets bursted anyway, and is thus required to deal damage not to be useless. The only thing I'd change is his ultimate. I want the original back, even if its only a %dmg reduction aura. Maybe like this: Maokai gets 20% less damage and allies around him half the amount. He stores the damage mitigated that way. After 5s or on recast he drops the aura zone on the ground. That lasts for 3s and after that enemies take damage for the amount stored, and allies get healed for the same amount. Then I would rework his current, utterly useless ultimate in a mechanic similar to corkis package. Maokai gets a seed after tot minutes into the game, and he can plant it preventively. After 20-30s the current ultimate starts from set location. This would help Maokai set up teamfights and objectives. With enough planning, it can be game changing and become a nice skill test.
Aizo (NA)
: I mean I definitely wouldn't mind having his old ultimate back as opposed to his current one, but the reason they removed his old ult was because of its unseen power. I think they could definitely give him an ult that makes him more durable and it would be great as well though!
To be honest everybody and their mother could see its power.. If there is something we need in this game, is more defense.
Dvâ (NA)
: I'm Lord DGAF (tilt), what did you get??
As I already DGAF about the game, Lord DGAF was the only reasonable outcome
: You dont understand that 112 MR is achieved with a single MR item and runes. It's not a high mr value. Go buy 250 MR and then you might be allowed to facetank a bit, but 112 MR ? I have more than that with VEIGAR when they have an AP team and I still manage to get 1000+ AP. And I do not expect to survive a full combo when I've got 3000HP and 112 MR, I just expect to survive 2-3 spells. Also tanks ARE viable, you can play shen, malphite, maokai, poppy, orn, there are just not so many tanks in the game since they separated tanks and juggernauts.
You don't understand that that tank items cost gold too. If one and half MR item + investing runes in AP is not enough to soak a rotation of a mage (which Tanks should counter) on a similar gold budget, then we go back to OP point: damage scales faster AND harder than defense. If we want to be specific, Nunu build couldn't be different. Cinderhulk is a must, and if the enemy is not full AP, dead man's plate is necessary too. The rest is rightful gold investment in MR, which is proven completely useless because again, damage > defense. To you that argue that an artillery mage rotation should remove 60% of hp of a tank, remember that that tank must also soak damage from DPS sources (which should counter tanks), from the frontline and maybe from the jungle. I.e. a tank must survive from multiple damage sources of both types. Arguing that a single source (that I add, should be sub-optimal on tanks) should almost do the job by itself, instantly on a burst, seems almost madness. PS: Maokai and Ornn are laughable, if you have doubts play them top against riven/Darius/Renekton etc. The others range from mediocre to good, but they're played for their damage, and not their tankiness. Check out the damage Shen/Malph does actually do after the buffs, it's quite crazy.
Moon Mom (NA)
: 145 magic resistance may be a lot of MR but lux is taking away a good chunk from her pen. He has 112 MR, not 145. He ate all of Lux's spells, she used her passive and weaved in a few autos. You also have to account for Ludens splash damage, comet, scorch, etc. Just because you have 112 MR doesn't mean you get to face tank all of a mage's spells. That isn't right. He got hit with literally everything, so quite frankly 55 percent of his health is correct if she hit everything + multiple passive procs + runes. -------------------------------------------------------------- Deathrecap is also still bugged. Someone got killed by revive the other day on the boards, so I don't trust the numbers quite frankly. I am not a lux main and don't believe in spreading a false narrative that tanks die too quick. She has a pen, if he eats all the skillshots he'll suffer and get low. Tanks do not deserve to run around freely taking any damage while killing you. It's incredibly toxic and forces a meta with very few answers.
"**Just because you have 112 MR doesn't mean you get to face tank all of a mage's spells.** " Dude that's like... what resistances are bought for... Plus, I don't understand what is this "tank meta" obsessive fear y'all seem to have. Tanks have literally been unviable for **years** now. The last time a toplane tank was consistently played in competitive was what, season 6? Wouldn't it be a bit of a frustration if an entire class, let's say mages or adcs, were to be unviable for multiple years?
Zeyphel (NA)
: Aatrox is Aatrox because of his sustain. That's a basic concept you would know if you played the champion. And Aatrox is not a bad rework at all, he is just a different champion. He can be really powerful in good hands but offer clear counterplay and doesn't have the mobility akali has. Removing all those things would just keep lowering the winRate of a champion with a 49% but I don't mind if they double his overall damage on every Q. You don't expect him to receive those nerfs without any compensation, right? and knowing Riot they will just keep raising his damage as compensation. It is easy to complain about a champion you don't play or don't like, but actually Aatrox is balanced in his current state, although he could receive some changes to his gameplay. He is solely being nerfed because of Worlds, but as soon as it ends you will see in patch notes, they buffing other parts of Aatrox to compensate the 45% WinRate he will soon have, and those buffs are more likely to be damage buffs which I don't really like.
> [{quoted}](name=Zeyphel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlqutnk0,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2019-09-08T15:10:44.031+0000) > > Aatrox is Aatrox because of his sustain. That's a basic concept you would know if you played the champion. > And Aatrox is not a bad rework at all, he is just a different champion. > He can be really powerful in good hands but offer clear counterplay and doesn't have the mobility akali has. > Removing all those things would just keep lowering the winRate of a champion with a 49% but I don't mind if they double his overall damage on every Q. You don't expect him to receive those nerfs without any compensation, right? and knowing Riot they will just keep raising his damage as compensation. > > It is easy to complain about a champion you don't play or don't like, but actually Aatrox is balanced in his current state, although he could receive some changes to his gameplay. He is solely being nerfed because of Worlds, but as soon as it ends you will see in patch notes, they buffing other parts of Aatrox to compensate the 45% WinRate he will soon have, and those buffs are more likely to be damage buffs which I don't really like. In my personal but reasonable metric of judgment, if the outcome of a rework is "just a completely different champion" then the rework failed. Failed hard. And it's quite a fact that Aatrox isn't balanced; he might have a sub-50 winrate in pub, but so does Leblanc and Lee Sin and many other high skill champions packed with damage, agency and options, which are far from being in needs for buffs. He is undeniably a plague in proplay, because despite countless nerfs, changes, and mini reworks he is still on a permanent pick/ban status, and this situation endures for more than a year; not even Renekton was that dominating when the proverbial "Renekton bar" was a thing in toplane. Aatrox is actively killing the variety of competitive play, and a "balanced" champion can't do that.
Abandon (OCE)
: @RIOT You cannot balance the new Aatrox for Pro Play and Solo Queue at the same time.
In all honesty, Aatrox is the worst rework to date, and it sucked up a ridiculous amount of balance team's time over his existence. It is a lost cause by now. Since the Q is a fundamentally broken spell, but also the core of Aatrox's kit, they are slowly stripping him of everything else. First the second E, then the iconic revive, and many other little things. What's left to remove is: - any form of minion sustain, because honestly he doesn't need it. - his E going through walls - the reset mechanics in his ultimate
: It might be too late to do anything else but give him number changes unfortunately...meaning aatrox has 100% (or 99.9% if you wanna be scientific) chance of staying in his current state until worlds is over....which will be in awhile. Nobody would bat an eye and scold you if you remade this thread at that point, if riot staff see it now they have an actual legitimate reason to ignore this thread up until worlds is over, and by then they can just pretend they forgot about it. So maybe repost, not telling you to take it down, just telling you to remember to bring it back up.
> [{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jlqutnk0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-07T05:10:20.818+0000) > > It might be too late to do anything else but give him number changes unfortunately...meaning aatrox has 100% (or 99.9% if you wanna be scientific) chance of staying in his current state until worlds is over....which will be in awhile. > > Nobody would bat an eye and scold you if you remade this thread at that point, if riot staff see it now they have an actual legitimate reason to ignore this thread up until worlds is over, and by then they can just pretend they forgot about it. > > > So maybe repost, not telling you to take it down, just telling you to remember to bring it back up. That would be the second world Aatrox effectively kills the variety of, with a whole competitive season in-between. Previous year we had every single toplane matchup of Aatrox vs Urgot. With Urgot not being such a direct counter to him after the mini rework, now there's only Aatrox. I don't know how Riot, which is solely obsessed with promoting and catering to proplay, doesn't realize that having the same champions over and over and over endlessly fighting in similar metas and positions... **Is just boring**
Nea104 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=TxBuxXn0,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-04T22:35:51.724+0000) > > 2 years LUL > > the game has started to go steadily downhill since the Juggernaut patch, and sped up its downfall after Lethality introduction > > Timestamps are so clear they hurt "At least" is the key part :P What I meant is, some people could argue about Season 7 or before, but nobody (sane and honest) can say S8 has been any good.
> [{quoted}](name=Nea104,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=TxBuxXn0,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T23:16:19.812+0000) > > "At least" is the key part :P > What I meant is, some people could argue about Season 7 or before, but nobody (sane and honest) can say S8 has been any good. I mean we had the infamous **_ardent meta_, which achieved the incredible task of making the game miserable for everybody**: top, mid and jungle were useless, and botlane quality was the only thing that mattered in winning games; at the same time, supports were **forced** to rush one single item, skipping gold generation items and even running full gold runepages, and to pick a champion that could abuse said item. Support were reduced to boring, passive stat givers. All in all, not even he adcs had a fun time due to the immense pressure they were inevitably getting from their team and the game in general (jungle camping botlane and chain 4/5 man diving bot was literally the only viable strategy). The worst part is that the community as a whole **begged** Riot to nerf Ardent Censer **for months**, but they deliberately kept the shit show on in order **not to disrupt worlds**, which ended up being the most pathetic and repetitive borefest to ever grace competitive. Yeah, talk about qualified professionals not killing the game out off incompetence...
Nea104 (EUW)
: My friendlist was long gone (even I don't play often anymore). TFT brought some people back, but since it's another poor game, they're gone again. I hope that this company will finally realize how bad they have done during these last 2 years (at least).
> [{quoted}](name=Nea104,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=TxBuxXn0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-04T20:15:57.158+0000) > > My friendlist was long gone (even I don't play often anymore). > TFT brought some people back, but since it's another poor game, they're gone again. I hope that this company will finally realize how bad they have done during these last 2 years (at least). 2 years LUL the game has started to go steadily downhill since the Juggernaut patch, and sped up its downfall after Lethality introduction Timestamps are so clear they hurt
: Evelynn required a nerf so they nerfed Q cdr by 10% now they say she needs a buff and guess what...
Nerf clear speed, buff in combat damage. Riot gaming, encouraging junglers to permaganking since season 6
: Kai'sa every game
**Kaisa has been meta for 1.5 years** That statement hit me hard, because it is the truth. How has league of legends become so stale?? Because this isn't exclusive to Kaisa, but there are many others (Aatrox, Akali, Sejuani, Tham etc). The meta is "different shades of damage meta" since the lethality rework, and is honestly getting boring, even more than it is frustrating... Pure tanks are strong only when they deal a lot of damage, and unviable elsewhere; soaking damage is not a part of the game anymore, since **years**.
: Nautilius's Animations
That's it. I quit the game
: Because it also has all the chromas in it, which brings us to the question of why the hell is there so many chromas on skins now. Before it was 5-6 chromas, now we're reaching 8 chromas.
> [{quoted}](name=2Charmnot2Charm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qdEj6LEa,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-01T15:01:19.074+0000) > > Because it also has all the chromas in it, which brings us to the question of why the hell is there so many chromas on skins now. > > Before it was 5-6 chromas, now we're reaching 8 chromas. Having more chromas isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially on a skin line like Elderwood that can make awesome use of beautiful color palettes. Now, creating a shit ton of chromas only to shove them in a pricey bundle, that's another story...
Shahamut (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KYwQGVPX,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T12:59:14.194+0000) > > I disagree firmly with every point. > > 1) That statement is mostly inconsequential, but even if not, having control of the enemy jungle and river helps a great deal in winning the game. Counter jungling and crab priority are the most immediate, but there is more. > > 2) Not necessarily Skarner spires should help him with jungle objective control. This is something you assume out of the blue. They do help him powerfarming and counter jungling, that you will agree, concer the jungle gameplay. So I don't see any issue there. > > 3) Not necessarily Skarner spires should help him in ganks, neither in taking or defending structures. Again, something you assume out of the blue. > > 4) I agree that spires control depends more on who's winning on losing than anything. But that is not unsalvageable if seizing them obeys different rules (example: as the enemy team retreats from their base siege, you sneak in your jungle and secure a spire for the next 3 minutes; next fight, your zone is available). > > Last but not least, Skarner is all about territorialism. The crystals were stolen from their... territory. Skarner is chasing and hunting in order to retrieve the crystals and... bring them back to their territory. When there are no spires outside of the territory, Skarner guards and protects... the territory. > I understand that we might have different opinions on the gameplay mechanic of the spires, but that's a fact. 1) The spires do not give Skarner any extra control over those objectives than is already assumed of any jungler. They give him some stats, stats that if he didn't have them, (or when he doesn't, as the case may be) he would be less than a champion. Even so, you don't NEED the spires to take scuttles, or to counter jungle. They add no real benefit to doing so, just a possible disadvantage if he doesn't control the spire. As such, they have no real game impact. 2) Controlling the jungle assumes that it is actively being contested: Spires give you no actual edge in securing major objectives over any other jungler, your level and smite timing does, OR if you have an extra "smite" in the form of an ability. Even if Skarner is in control of his spires, the jungler who smites better or has the higher smite level will ultimately have the "control". Skarner's crowd control abilities could be argued as better for controlling objectives as he can move opponents away from the target objective, except that it also removes himself as well. Also, blue buff goes with you ANYWHERE on the map. Spires do not. 3) Im assuming you mean "shouldn't" here. Constantly comparing Skarner's spires to a blue buff is just one more reason they are not good for him/the game. The spires give OFFENSIVE stats, not just mana regen, and they eat a lot of his power budget to do so. They are OFFENSIVE stats, that can't be used in a gank or to take/defend towers. Thats a problem. 4) Everything you can list as an advantage to capturing spires is equally a disadvantage: What if 3 minutes without your spires because enemy snuck out to capture? Your example also assumes the fight is going to happen in the spire zone. What if the next fight is in your/their base? Last but not least, your territory argument is terrible. By that argument, EVERY champion could be considered territorial. Even more so than Skarner since his "territory" doesn't even exist anymore. Garen, Swain, Darius are now more territorial, because they do things for their city-state as a whole. Skarner is at best "Familial" not territorial. He isn't seeking the crystals for the sake of the land, but his brethren. Based on Skarner's new lore, I could even argue that he doesn't even view the territory as a "homeland" because they revere the entire earth, not just that isolated part of it.
> [{quoted}](name=Shahamut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KYwQGVPX,comment-id=000d000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T13:18:52.098+0000) > > 1) The spires do not give Skarner any extra control over those objectives than is already assumed of any jungler. They give him some stats, stats that if he didn't have them, (or when he doesn't, as the case may be) he would be less than a champion. Even so, you don't NEED the spires to take scuttles, or to counter jungle. They add no real benefit to doing so, just a possible disadvantage if he doesn't control the spire. As such, they have no real game impact. > > 2) Controlling the jungle assumes that it is actively being contested: Spires give you no actual edge in securing major objectives over any other jungler, your level and smite timing does, OR if you have an extra "smite" in the form of an ability. Even if Skarner is in control of his spires, the jungler who smites better or has the higher smite level will ultimately have the "control". Skarner's crowd control abilities could be argued as better for controlling objectives as he can move opponents away from the target objective, except that it also removes himself as well. Also, blue buff goes with you ANYWHERE on the map. Spires do not. > > 3) Im assuming you mean "shouldn't" here. Constantly comparing Skarner's spires to a blue buff is just one more reason they are not good for him/the game. The spires give OFFENSIVE stats, not just mana regen, and they eat a lot of his power budget to do so. They are OFFENSIVE stats, that can't be used in a gank or to take/defend towers. Thats a problem. > > 4) Everything you can list as an advantage to capturing spires is equally a disadvantage: What if 3 minutes without your spires because enemy snuck out to capture? Your example also assumes the fight is going to happen in the spire zone. What if the next fight is in your/their base? > > Last but not least, your territory argument is terrible. By that argument, EVERY champion could be considered territorial. Even more so than Skarner since his "territory" doesn't even exist anymore. Garen, Swain, Darius are now more territorial, because they do things for their city-state as a whole. Skarner is at best "Familial" not territorial. He isn't seeking the crystals for the sake of the land, but his brethren. Based on Skarner's new lore, I could even argue that he doesn't even view the territory as a "homeland" because they revere the entire earth, not just that isolated part of it. I think you are not familiar with the expression "out of the blue", which has nothing to do with blue buff. Or maybe I am the one at wrong here, don't know. What's undeniable is that you missed completely my point. 1,2,3) You keep assuming, **for no actual reason**, that spires should give Skarner certain, specific things that **you** considering better fit for the jungling role (ganking, contesting objectives, taking down structures etc). That's **completely arbitrary**, for Skarner spires help other, different areas related to jungling (map pressure, clear speed, counter jungling, crab priority); there is no reason spires should tackle what you want and not what they do. Spires give a ton on movement speed and **attack speed**, fighting Skarner on them 1v1 is often unwise: this has several consequences, as listed above. 4) That's just... part of the minigame. You win, you get the boon and have an advantage. You lose the minigame, or can't use the boon properly, you're on your own. Spireless Skarner is weaker but far from useless. Lastly: no offense but I'm not gonna comment on the lore bit, because in all honesty you're in denial.
Shahamut (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KYwQGVPX,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-09-01T07:07:43.846+0000) > > I know that's unpopular in a Skarner revert thread, but I love **the concept** of the spires. > > Territorialism is key to our scorpion identity in the lore, and "map control" is a niche absent in the game. > > But I wish two things: > > 1) spires must be meaningful objective worth taking and denying, meaning that seizing control of then must secure their property for a good amount of time. The minigame should be interesting and impacting. > > 2) securing spires should give something much more interesting and unique than stats. > > Oh, and his E should cast from Skarner's stinger like Victor's laser, that must happen. > > All in all, at the moment Skarner is strong but mostly boring to play (especially if enemy builds QSS, then you lose any purpose). I also think you are understimating the damage bruiser Skarner deals. A triforce carries your midgame very hard. I would certainly invite you to read through my mega thread (if you havent already) about why the spires in and of themselves are poor game design. To summarize though, the major points are: 1) Zone control is no good for a moba- You win the game by destroying the nexus, not controlling the jungle/river. 2) The Don't actually help him control objectives. Things that deal true damage to monsters, like nunu/chogath and even Kalista's Rend are better for objective control, because it gives you another "smite" effectively. Skarner's spires help him "power farm" and thats about it. 3) They don't aid in ganking (major jungler theme), taking towers/nexus, defending towers/nexus. 4) Skarner has ZERO personal agency over them. Its a teamwide passive effectively, because if your team isn't winning, there is no way to control the zones outside of lazy neglect on the part of the enemy team. Territorialism isn't a theme to Skarner in the lore: Hunting is. The Lore has him leaving the sleeping brakern in search of their stolen life crystals. Hes not just sitting around waiting for them to die, he is being proactive and searching for them.
> [{quoted}](name=Shahamut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KYwQGVPX,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-09-01T11:37:13.540+0000) > > I would certainly invite you to read through my mega thread (if you havent already) about why the spires in and of themselves are poor game design. To summarize though, the major points are: > 1) Zone control is no good for a moba- You win the game by destroying the nexus, not controlling the jungle/river. > 2) The Don't actually help him control objectives. Things that deal true damage to monsters, like nunu/chogath and even Kalista's Rend are better for objective control, because it gives you another "smite" effectively. Skarner's spires help him "power farm" and thats about it. > 3) They don't aid in ganking (major jungler theme), taking towers/nexus, defending towers/nexus. > 4) Skarner has ZERO personal agency over them. Its a teamwide passive effectively, because if your team isn't winning, there is no way to control the zones outside of lazy neglect on the part of the enemy team. > > Territorialism isn't a theme to Skarner in the lore: Hunting is. The Lore has him leaving the sleeping brakern in search of their stolen life crystals. Hes not just sitting around waiting for them to die, he is being proactive and searching for them. I disagree firmly with every point. 1) That statement is mostly inconsequential, but even if not, having control of the enemy jungle and river helps a great deal in winning the game. Counter jungling and crab priority are the most immediate, but there is more. 2) Not necessarily Skarner spires should help him with jungle objective control. This is something you assume out of the blue. They do help him powerfarming and counter jungling, that you will agree, concer the jungle gameplay. So I don't see any issue there. 3) Not necessarily Skarner spires should help him in ganks, neither in taking or defending structures. Again, something you assume out of the blue. 4) I agree that spires control depends more on who's winning on losing than anything. But that is not unsalvageable if seizing them obeys different rules (example: as the enemy team retreats from their base siege, you sneak in your jungle and secure a spire for the next 3 minutes; next fight, your zone is available). Last but not least, Skarner is all about territorialism. The crystals were stolen from their... territory. Skarner is chasing and hunting in order to retrieve the crystals and... bring them back to their territory. When there are no spires outside of the territory, Skarner guards and protects... the territory. I understand that we might have different opinions on the gameplay mechanic of the spires, but that's a fact.
: > [{quoted}](name=Zephyr1991,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-08-27T04:46:13.587+0000) > > His damage is nowhere near what it used to be. From what Ive heard from the most prolific Panth mains, he now loses roughly 85% of all toplane matchups. > Having played him a bit up there, this seems like a huge exaggeration. He definitely gets outscaled by scaling toplaners - anyone who has a stacking mechanic will wreck him late, for instance {{champion:31}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:14}} - so he's not a wonderful toplane blind, which is a shame because he is def very fun to play. However, his new mechanics and his universal damage reduction from a direction give him all kinds of counterplay against champions he wasn't always great against before - particularly some ranged tops like {{champion:6}} {{champion:518}} - as well as significant siege potential under tower that he never had before. Those who are using his new E like his old one are going to undoubtedly be frustrated and are doing it wrong. It's best now as damage prevention, not a source of damage. Also, those who do nothing but throw the spears are also doing it wrong. His spear stab is arguably a lot more op than the throw, given the cooldown refund - the games where I've had a really good lane in top with him, I'm stabbing a lot more than tossing. I do agree that his new ult doesn't feel great, however, and I'd love to see a second or two shaved off the channel time - that might be all it takes to make him feel really responsive and wonderful. Overall I have to say I still prefer the new one to the old - the old one had some pretty serious issues mustering enough range to compete in the modern toplane meta, though I was never a main on the old version. I understand old mains might be frustrated, but goodness, talk to {{champion:266}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:50}} players about how to survive a rework - {{champion:80}} didn't even get all that much changed compared to those champs.
> [{quoted}](name=CaliCoastReplay,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=000400000002,timestamp=2019-08-27T17:33:09.798+0000) > > Having played him a bit up there, this seems like a huge exaggeration. > > He definitely gets outscaled by scaling toplaners - anyone who has a stacking mechanic will wreck him late, for instance {{champion:31}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:14}} - so he's not a wonderful toplane blind, which is a shame because he is def very fun to play. > > However, his new mechanics and his universal damage reduction from a direction give him all kinds of counterplay against champions he wasn't always great against before - particularly some ranged tops like {{champion:6}} {{champion:518}} - as well as significant siege potential under tower that he never had before. > > Those who are using his new E like his old one are going to undoubtedly be frustrated and are doing it wrong. It's best now as damage prevention, not a source of damage. > > Also, those who do nothing but throw the spears are also doing it wrong. His spear stab is arguably a lot more op than the throw, given the cooldown refund - the games where I've had a really good lane in top with him, I'm stabbing a lot more than tossing. > > I do agree that his new ult doesn't feel great, however, and I'd love to see a second or two shaved off the channel time - that might be all it takes to make him feel really responsive and wonderful. > > Overall I have to say I still prefer the new one to the old - the old one had some pretty serious issues mustering enough range to compete in the modern toplane meta, though I was never a main on the old version. I understand old mains might be frustrated, but goodness, talk to {{champion:266}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:50}} players about how to survive a rework - {{champion:80}} didn't even get all that much changed compared to those champs. He does lose a vast majority of the toplane matchups, though. He's not wrong about that. He's a lane bully that gets bullied, and his kit can't function properly if when he commits he gets his ass kicked. Also, as people learn to play around his E, his E gets exponentially worse. What does stop, let's say, a Renekton from delaying his spells, go behind Pantheon and beat him up? Pantheon's E damage is very low and can't function as a deterrent of aggression, it is merely a burst denial tool; but in toplane matchups this is only limitedly useful. Pantheon seriously lacks DPS, and so he did pre-rework, but his poke now is immensely worse, so he can be jumped by full health, bulkier, burstier bruisers. Pantheon also lacks survivability, because he's as squishy as before, but lost his passive, which was very strong in early toplane trades. So he relies on his E, but as I explained above, in many cases its worth is just delaying a bit enemy aggression. To summarize, the loss of his poke makes him more vulnerable to aggression, and the loss of his passive and serious lack of damage make him much weaker when attacked.
: Morde depressing champ.
The rework is fine, but his numbers became depressing after the nerfs. With depressing numbers he's not a threat, and if he's not a threat, his kit makes no sense. That's exactly the Pantheon issue right now. Imagine a Darius dealing as much damage as a Maokai; what would he be good for? When you ult somebody as Mordekaiser, you're trapped with your opponent, and not otherwise. I was 1v1ed by a non fed, ultless rumble in my death realm. **He stood still** with his flamethrower in my face, tanking all my damage. It was pathetic. That's when I decided to stop playing Mordekaiser.
Shahamut (NA)
: What Skarner mains REALLY want...
I know that's unpopular in a Skarner revert thread, but I love **the concept** of the spires. Territorialism is key to our scorpion identity in the lore, and "map control" is a niche absent in the game. But I wish two things: 1) spires must be meaningful objective worth taking and denying, meaning that seizing control of then must secure their property for a good amount of time. The minigame should be interesting and impacting. 2) securing spires should give something much more interesting and unique than stats. Oh, and his E should cast from Skarner's stinger like Victor's laser, that must happen. All in all, at the moment Skarner is strong but mostly boring to play (especially if enemy builds QSS, then you lose any purpose). I also think you are understimating the damage bruiser Skarner deals. A triforce carries your midgame very hard.
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HW8ABzQI,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-31T20:54:11.265+0000) > > You want to know how Morello would have handled Aatrox? > > Let's go back in time, to a time when balancing this game was a serious things, with principles and direction. > > Morello notices a month-long 100% Aatrox pick/banrate on proplay. Then, he tries a round of changes or two. When he realizes that those changes are ineffective, bam! The Nerf bat hits Aatrox hard, and he's "Olafed": basically unplayable due to crippled numbers. > > He concludes that there is a deep rooted issue in Aatrox kit and that can only be solved with systematic work of appropriate scale. > > We're talking about a champion that has dominanted (and by dominanted, I mean that had 90%+ pick/banrate) the toplane in the pro scene, **for more than a year now**, despite countless nerfs and several mini reworks. He's an issue for the variety and integrity of competitive league that has been left in an unacceptable state for too long. So, after people have complained about "Olaf/Sejauni/Zac/Poppy/Whatever'ing" champions to the point of unviability, Riot decides "We'll be less destructive to champions because people like these champions". Now that they AREN'T shoving champions into the pit of uselessness, we now start complaining that they...aren't shoving champions in the pit of uselessness, and that they should start doing this again. Imagine if they started doing this and targeted champs you DIDN'T want them to target, like Kench? It's easy to tear down someone else's fun. It ain't so easy when it's potentially YOUR fun, so why wish that on someone else's champion?
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HW8ABzQI,comment-id=00040001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-31T21:59:58.529+0000) > > So, after people have complained about "Olaf/Sejauni/Zac/Poppy/Whatever-the-fuck'ing" champions to the point of unviability, Riot decides "We'll be less destructive to champions because people like these champions". Now that they AREN'T shoving champions into the pit of uselessness, we now start complaining that they...aren't shoving champions in the pit of uselessness, and that they should start doing this again. > > Imagine if they started doing this and targeted champs you DIDN'T want them to target, like Kench? It's easy to tear down someone else's fun. It ain't so easy when it's potentially YOUR fun, so why wish that on someone else's champion? **I used to play the shit out of Rengar when he was an "Olafed" trollpick, many years ago.** I loved Galio to death, and was incredibly sad when he was slowly made unplayable. I wish they didn't bench the Kench, because Kench is life. But I understand and accept when those measures become necessary. Rengar stealth bursting from point blank was incompatible with league standards at the time. Both Kench and Galio polarized proplay for too long (even if the case of Galio is a bit... More complicated). When the time comes, you gotta pull the plug. Because the alternative in this case is dedicating **way too much time** in solving with endless trial and error problems that can't be solved. In all honesty, how many nerfs and mini reworks did Aatrox endure? Did they matter? Did all this time spent on him made him anything less then an absolute monster in pro? No. What I'm saying is that when you try multiple times and get **zero progress** (Aatrox even lost his iconic revive and he's stronger than ever), moving on is the only reasonable way.
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HW8ABzQI,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-08-31T12:26:42.859+0000) > > This would be a reasonable strawman if only the first sentence wasn't completely, utterly, shamelessly made up. > > Considering that balance changes this year were **heavily** (_I stress, **heavily**_) centered around proplay issues. We witnessed an endless stream of changes/mini reworks for the usual Aatrox, Akali, Tham, Galio, Puke etc. They've been making those changes to those champions because they've been trying to close the gap between solo queue and pro play performance on those champions for months. They've also been making changes to remove solo queue frustration for some of those champions, like Tham and Akali. They always make some pro play changes...but who said they aren't making solo queue oriented changes all the time, either? It's a mix of both all year round save for this time of year. To say otherwise on either side is disingenuous.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HW8ABzQI,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2019-08-31T19:56:19.441+0000) > > They've been making those changes to those champions because they've been trying to close the gap between solo queue and pro play performance on those champions for months. They've also been making changes to remove solo queue frustration for some of those champions, like Tham and Akali. > > They always make some pro play changes...but who said they aren't making solo queue oriented changes all the time, either? It's a mix of both all year round save for this time of year. To say otherwise on either side is disingenuous. You want to know how Morello would have handled Aatrox? Let's go back in time, to a time when balancing this game was a serious things, with principles and direction. Morello notices a month-long 100% Aatrox pick/banrate on proplay. Then, he tries a round of changes or two. When he realizes that those changes are ineffective, bam! The Nerf bat hits Aatrox hard, and he's "Olafed": basically unplayable due to crippled numbers. He concludes that there is a deep rooted issue in Aatrox kit and that can only be solved with systematic work of appropriate scale. We're talking about a champion that has dominanted (and by dominanted, I mean that had 90%+ pick/banrate) the toplane in the pro scene, **for more than a year now**, despite countless nerfs and several mini reworks. He's an issue for the variety and integrity of competitive league that has been left in an unacceptable state for too long.
: I feel like skins are a good answer for the conflicting Volibear concepts
I think your post is solid, well-thought, and well-written. However, I'm not settling for anything less of _**C T H U L H U B E A R**_
: No, neither of these have been overnerfed. They are exactly where they should be, albeit in Riven's case we should still give her a couple of patches before they decide. These idiots take 4 seasons to nerf Riven but less than a patch before they decide to buff her back. Edit : Literally none of those champions require buffs. Aurelion Sol straight up needs to be reverted.
> [{quoted}](name=HazeVictory,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bkO0hcjo,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-08-31T02:32:16.212+0000) > > No, neither of these have been overnerfed. They are exactly where they should be, albeit in Riven's case we should still give her a couple of patches before they decide. > > These idiots take 4 seasons to nerf Riven but less than a patch before they decide to buff her back. > > Edit : Literally none of those champions require buffs. > > Aurelion Sol straight up needs to be reverted. I mean, Warwick has been mediocre for a lot of time, and straight up infuriating to play because of a myriad of different bugs. His W is trash code and the fact they are FINALLY looking into it is long overdue. TL;DR: WW is the only champion deserving to be on the buff list
: Caters to PUB play year round. "zzzz rito never listen 2 us" Makes balance changes focused around pros for around 1-2 months. "WTF RIOT CATER TO LC$ YET AGAIN".
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HW8ABzQI,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-31T10:43:43.433+0000) > > Caters to PUB play year round. "zzzz rito never listen 2 us" > > Makes balance changes focused around pros for around 1-2 months. "WTF RIOT CATER TO LC$ YET AGAIN". This would be a reasonable strawman if only the first sentence wasn't completely, utterly, shamelessly made up. Considering that balance changes this year were **heavily** (_I stress, **heavily**_) centered around proplay issues. We witnessed an endless stream of changes/mini reworks for the usual Aatrox, Akali, Tham, Galio, Puke etc. Those guys have an **immense** presence in the balance patches (I believe Aatrox has a ~50% presence in patch notes since his rework released), and they suck up all the developer time for more deserving, less problematic champions that would benefit a lot more from similar scope of changes/attention. Instead we gotta try yet another iteration for Aatrox, god forbid working on carving niches and updating long forgotten, low pickrate champions made outdated by stupid power creep.
: Hey! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You're not being ignored and this isn't being lost in the depths of the boards :) Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly - When you say we're moving away from teasers, what kinds are you referring to? In-game easter eggs on PBE? A video teaser before we show the gameplay trailer? For every champion, we (the publishing team) think about the best way to intro the champion to players. It's not something we decide lightly - we spend a lot of time talking and planning. Sometimes we do something that doesn't work, which feels bad. But we try to remember those learnings. [Yuumi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZWEV3bACZo) and [Qiyana](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVuWMbmHEWw) did have champion teasers that came out before the main gameplay trailer. To shed some light on that process, we spent a lot more time and resources on those videos (esp. the 3D intros of the [Qiyana](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cttriTiPjuU) and [Yuumi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZWEV3bACZo) Trailer) than we have in our past champ videos.. and I think the overall quality surpasses a lot of the stuff we showed in the past (besides the million $ CGs of course). We didn't do an in-game Easter Egg for Yuumi and Qiyana, but that doesn't mean it's off the table! In fact, we have one in the works... The point is that we're going to work on cool stuff that we think you'll like to see and it won't always be the same every time. For the login screens, yeah the loss of login screens really sucks. Part of it is out of my control. Like, you won't actually be able to see them anymore with the new client. That doesn't mean we gave up. We asked, what do people like about the login screens? An answer we got was that they really brought the champion and the thematic to life. Esp. with the awesome music. So for Pantheon, we created a [Champion Theme](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zub8agQjrw) that showed off more of the love we put into the art behind-the-scenes, and how the champion came to life over time. Over some really dope music. Do people like it more than the old login screen videos we did? I dunno, it depends on your taste :P But the point is, we're going to keep experimenting with ways on how we reveal our stuff in a meaningful way.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot HansAxel,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8fAnvyrh,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-08-29T22:33:13.746+0000) > > Hey! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You're not being ignored and this isn't being lost in the depths of the boards :) > > Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly - > When you say we're moving away from teasers, what kinds are you referring to? In-game easter eggs on PBE? A video teaser before we show the gameplay trailer? > > For every champion, we (the publishing team) think about the best way to intro the champion to players. It's not something we decide lightly - we spend a lot of time talking and planning. Sometimes we do something that doesn't work, which feels bad. But we try to remember those learnings. [Yuumi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZWEV3bACZo) and [Qiyana](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVuWMbmHEWw) did have champion teasers that came out before the main gameplay trailer. To shed some light on that process, we spent a lot more time and resources on those videos (esp. the 3D intros of the [Qiyana](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cttriTiPjuU) and [Yuumi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZWEV3bACZo) Trailer) than we have in our past champ videos.. and I think the overall quality surpasses a lot of the stuff we showed in the past (besides the million $ CGs of course). > > We didn't do an in-game Easter Egg for Yuumi and Qiyana, but that doesn't mean it's off the table! In fact, we have one in the works... The point is that we're going to work on cool stuff that we think you'll like to see and it won't always be the same every time. > > For the login screens, yeah the loss of login screens really sucks. Part of it is out of my control. Like, you won't actually be able to see them anymore with the new client. That doesn't mean we gave up. We asked, what do people like about the login screens? An answer we got was that they really brought the champion and the thematic to life. Esp. with the awesome music. So for Pantheon, we created a [Champion Theme](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zub8agQjrw) that showed off more of the love we put into the art behind-the-scenes, and how the champion came to life over time. Over some really dope music. Do people like it more than the old login screen videos we did? I dunno, it depends on your taste :P But the point is, we're going to keep experimenting with ways on how we reveal our stuff in a meaningful way. I am not going to comment on the loss of cinematic champion trailers (something like Jhin's), but I can give advice on how to recycle login screen and champion music, since they're going away with the new client: Make them appear in the champion page you're redirected from the shop and champion tab. Maybe that's technologically possible within the new client, given it's not a disaster like the current one. This is a value return for your company, as it works as an higher quality advertisement when buying champions (and legendary skins which used to come with animated splash and music theme). Imagine people seeing the animated Jhin's login with his awesome theme kicking in as they click the champion: "I want him now, let me get my wallet"; maybe even a button on a corner with a link for his teaser. Moreover we're talking about mostly recycled work you have already done, finding value over time by being implemented permanently in the champion page. In all honesty I'm stressing on the economical convenience of my proposal because the impression is that you're solely interested in profit lately... But it would be nice to have directly available all the awesome art and wonderful music you have crafted in the years.
: Riot Games is Starting to Act Like Wargaming. I Don't Want Riot to Fail Like They Did.
I think if my friends weren't there, I would have stopped playing the game completely. And in all honesty, with Riot's recent greedy monetization schemes, combined with their embarrassing lazyness and lack or content, are starting to look like a desperate try to compensate the revenue loss due to a dwindling player count.
floo (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2019-08-27T13:37:10.153+0000) > > In my opinion the kit is fine, and solid. The rework is very respectful to what Pantheon used to be. > > That said, Pantheon at the moment struggles to do literally anything. > > Listening to high elo Pantheon mains, what I got is that he's actually a lane bully that loses most of his matchups, and doesn't scale at all in the mid/late game. His poke has low damage (through minions), and high cd, so his DPS is often outsustained by modern league toplaners. > > His ultimate is simply terrible, but working around cast times and warnings it can be salvageable. I can see the problem of his low damage. But his E makes every kind of all in or towerdive invalid, so maybe he's better in midlane as an assassin counter? I also don't think he is viable in pro play with his kit, so I hope Riot doesn't overbuff him to be viable there and make him another unnecessary threat in soloQ. And honestly, the only reason besides low damage why his ult is worse, is because he can't already cast his spells while he's landing anymore. It was kind of bs though.
> [{quoted}](name=floo,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2019-08-27T14:14:36.968+0000) > > I can see the problem of his low damage. But his E makes every kind of all in or towerdive invalid, so maybe he's better in midlane as an assassin counter? > > I also don't think he is viable in pro play with his kit, so I hope Riot doesn't overbuff him to be viable there and make him another unnecessary threat in soloQ. And honestly, the only reason besides low damage why his ult is worse, is because he can't already cast his spells while he's landing anymore. It was kind of bs though. The problem is, even picking him mid against an assassin, what you would achieve is **not losing**. You can deny as many tower dives as you wish but you're not winning, you're surviving. That's a fine tactic if the assassin's counter has some form of scaling or utility, so that he's valuable in the mid/late game. But we're talking Pantheon here: you're deciding to negate possible early kill pressure from the opponent, and what you're paying is being a minion for the rest of the game. That is surely not worth it. The problem with Pantheon is that **right now he can't afford to be aggressive, because everyone kicks his ass if he commits; so he must poke, but his poke is mediocre at best, and he is completely vulnerable from opponent agression**.
floo (EUW)
: Why though? He has kept most of his old kit, simply updated. His Q is still low cd poke, but now a skillshot. His W is the same. His E is now his passive on demand and his old E with less damage, but movable. His R has a different shape. The only thing that seems worth not playing him atm is lower damage output, but even for that he has a new passive to strengthen his abilities.
> [{quoted}](name=floo,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HJeO6q2f,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-08-27T11:24:18.424+0000) > > Why though? He has kept most of his old kit, simply updated. > His Q is still low cd poke, but now a skillshot. > His W is the same. > His E is now his passive on demand and his old E with less damage, but movable. > His R has a different shape. > > The only thing that seems worth not playing him atm is lower damage output, but even for that he has a new passive to strengthen his abilities. In my opinion the kit is fine, and solid. The rework is very respectful to what Pantheon used to be. That said, Pantheon at the moment struggles to do literally anything. Listening to high elo Pantheon mains, what I got is that he's actually a lane bully that loses most of his matchups, and doesn't scale at all in the mid/late game. His poke has low damage (through minions), and high cd, so his DPS is often outsustained by modern league toplaners. His ultimate is simply terrible, but working around cast times and warnings it can be salvageable.
: ranked matchmaking at least tries to give you mates in your elo. in normal you can literally be 5 unrankeds vs 4 masters and 1 dia 1 (actually happened to me)
> [{quoted}](name=Jennifer420,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fzP9hOIN,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-24T11:54:22.502+0000) > > ranked matchmaking at least tries to give you mates in your elo. > in normal you can literally be 5 unrankeds vs 4 masters and 1 dia 1 (actually happened to me) In all honesty, there is a separate MMR for rankeds and normals. While me and my friends dgaf about rank, and are thus gold/plat, our average opponent in normals is diamond. Of course if a diamond player has a silver friend and wants to play with him in normals, the elo of that game will be inconsistent.
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=00070000000100010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T21:34:00.811+0000) > > I get what you're saying there! > > So Qiyana is fine and Annie is OP, especially in high elo. > > Thank for the laughs dude. I almost died in the effort of conceptualizing a champion at high level, the attempt near fried my two brain cells > > P.S., just for the memes: in Masters and above, Qiyana has 14% pickrate, 55% winrate and 43% banrate. Annie has 0.9% pickrate, 44% winrate and 0.8% banrate (which is probably a single missclick trying to ban Aatrox) and master yi has a fucking S++++++ 75.93% win rate globally in challenger with 2% pick rate jax has 57.93% winshares 10.8% pick rate so wtf is actually busted?
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=000700000001000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T21:38:33.094+0000) > > and master yi has a fucking > S++++++ > 75.93% win rate globally in challenger with 2% pick rate > > jax has > 57.93% winshares > 10.8% pick rate > > so wtf is actually busted? Getting your info from www.madeupstats.org is an interesting counter argument for evident, glaring numbers indicating that your girl is laughably busted in the hands of a competent player. Master Yi has 3% pickrate, 4% banrate and a staggering 46.6% winrate! While Jax rocks a 12% pickrate, 14% banrate and 51.7% winrate! Source: any non-made up site
Aazzlano (NA)
: level 3 Qiyana EQWQ with 1 auto does 332 + 434% bonus ad + 100% total ad passive, procced twice since it resets on W: 23 + 55% bonus ad 23 + 55% bonus ad Q, procced twice since its reset, plus bonus damage on low health: 80 + 90% bonus ad 80 + 90% bonus ad 48 + 54% bonus ad W from single auto: 8 + 20% bonus ad E: 70 + 70% bonus ad Zed full combo WEQ with 1 auto does 270 + 280% bonus ad + 100% total ad passive: 6% max health, like 40 damage Q twice: 80 + 100% bonus ad 80 + 100% bonus ad E 70 + 80% bonus ad level 3 Qiyana EQWQ with 1 auto does 332 + 434% bonus ad + 100% total ad Zed full combo WEQ with 1 auto does 270 + 280% bonus ad + 100% total ad hmm
> [{quoted}](name=Aazzlano,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-22T21:40:02.150+0000) > > level 3 Qiyana EQWQ with 1 auto does 332 + 434% bonus ad + 100% total ad > > passive, procced twice since it resets on W: > 23 + 55% bonus ad > 23 + 55% bonus ad > > Q, procced twice since its reset, plus bonus damage on low health: > 80 + 90% bonus ad > 80 + 90% bonus ad > 48 + 54% bonus ad > > W from single auto: > 8 + 20% bonus ad > > E: > 70 + 70% bonus ad > > > Zed full combo WEQ with 1 auto does 270 + 280% bonus ad + 100% total ad > > passive: > 6% max health, like 40 damage > > Q twice: > 80 + 100% bonus ad > 80 + 100% bonus ad > > E > 70 + 80% bonus ad > > > level 3 Qiyana EQWQ with 1 auto does 332 + 434% bonus ad + 100% total ad > Zed full combo WEQ with 1 auto does 270 + 280% bonus ad + 100% total ad > > hmm And you're not factoring in that Qiyana is allowed to slip in several more autoattacks, given how her trading pattern and mobility works. That guy's math is questionable at best.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Missed the part with the level up. Also, no, it's not only about Qiyana. If you read the comments, a LOT of people, including the OP said that other assassins (and specifically naming Zed among them) wouldn't be able to kill Malz in that scenario, which accordion to math, it's false and at least Zed would've killed him faster and easier.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=0001000200000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T21:22:08.658+0000) > > Missed the part with the level up. > > Also, no, it's not only about Qiyana. If you read the comments, a LOT of people, including the OP said that other assassins (and specifically naming Zed among them) wouldn't be able to kill Malz in that scenario, which accordion to math, it's false and at least Zed would've killed him faster and easier. The general idea of Qiyana not being alone in dealing absurd amounts of burst damage is a widely accepted sentiment , but your post is false and misleading, for two main reasons: 1) Zed numbers are **way** lower, and his abilities scale off bonus AD. Zed lvl3 rotation in the best case scenario deals Q 80+1bAD X2 + E 70+0.8bAD + AA 1tAD + Passive 6% maxhp of the enemy, and that's about 360, regardless of runes and ignite, unmitigated. 2) since we're talking a Malzahar here, his passive would have negated either the double shuriken damage or the E alle, which enables an AA for Zed. This is a specific interaction, but the Malzahar would have **surely** survived. Lastly, Zed burst in the early game is surely not a good standard to measure a champion's brokeness. If Qiyana can match the same burst as Zed at lv3, it's two problem instead of one.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eonslegacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=000700000001000100000001,timestamp=2019-08-22T20:19:32.314+0000) > > annie does less than half her damage. And she needs to stop farming with spells for the stun. > If any other champ played that perfectly for their champ only like 1 champion gets the kill. > Riven, fizz, renketon, and others simply cant do that much damage. They WOULD NOT get a kill there. Thats the point. People would not kill him there. He is justifiably concerned. why would she need to stop farming if she's executing correctly? you see man this is what i hate, ya'll cannot conceptualise champions to a high level. if that annie is executing perfectly then you get stunned when she flashes you 3 bars in lane, and you get ult stunned when she flashes you 1 bar. why would she have to sit on 4 bars like it's fucking silver? like lol do you know how unplayable annie is if someone decides to present some real annie gameplay to you? you'll be zoned out forever.
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=0007000000010001000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-22T20:24:45.038+0000) > > why would she need to stop farming if she's executing correctly? > you see man this is what i hate, ya'll cannot conceptualise champions to a high level. > if that annie is executing perfectly then you get stunned when she flashes you 3 bars in lane, and you get ult stunned when she flashes you 1 bar. > why would she have to sit on 4 bars like it's fucking silver? > like lol do you know how unplayable annie is if someone decides to present some real annie gameplay to you? you'll be zoned out forever. I get what you're saying there! So Qiyana is fine and Annie is OP, especially in high elo. Thank for the laughs dude. I almost died in the effort of conceptualizing a champion at high level, the attempt near fried my two brain cells P.S., just for the memes: in Masters and above, Qiyana has 14% pickrate, 55% winrate and 43% banrate. Annie has 0.9% pickrate, 44% winrate and 0.8% banrate (which is probably a single missclick trying to ban Aatrox)
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=0007000000010001,timestamp=2019-08-22T19:22:32.310+0000) > > Is that play impressive to you? > > To me, that's... How Qiyana works? It's like being in awe at a Lee Sin wardjumping. > > Moreover, even admitting that "play" > (i.e. dashing towards the enemy and spamming your kit, with AAs in-between the spells) was noteworthy, do you think the Qiyana somehow deserved the kill? > > A champion kit can be extremely hard to execute, but it's the output that matters in the end. We're witnessing a lv3 100-0 in a second or so, with zero counterplay for the Malzahar other than "concede cs and stay half a screen away". > > Qiyana did fine, but nothing more than executing her kit correctly. if you execute the kit correctly you get rewarded, this is all the champions on the roster. like lol is an annie pressing R impressive or not?
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=00070000000100010000,timestamp=2019-08-22T19:24:51.680+0000) > > if you execute the kit correctly you get rewarded, this is all the champions on the roster. > like lol is an annie pressing R impressive or not? Malzahar probably executed his kit correctly multiple times (his kit, also, include skill shots) during the laining phase, for Qiyana is 5 pots down AND chunked at level 3, which is immense. Where is his reward?
: Because people just won't care the fact that I have already poked her to 0 potions at lv 3 and at half health, all they care is the so-called "misstep" that I did and I then deserve to die instantly from almost full health. Why would you think a Qiyana would already be out of potions at lv 3 and at half health? How many "mistakes" do you think {{champion:246}} she made to bring her to this state? No they just won't care all they know is "yeah you misstepped that's why you deserved to be insta-gibbed", not to mention my original intention was to bait her in (As I said I was close to my turret's side and I have 3 minions near me), only to get totally surprised by this ridiculous burst". Because people won't realise the window of error for both champions are completely not equal It takes tons of missteps for a mage {{champion:90}} to poke/kill a champion meanwhile all an assassin {{champion:246}} have to do is to find **ONE** to insta-gib you from nearly full health People just really won't admit that a real mage like {{champion:101}} will never be able to do the same shit at lv3, and continue to defend their beloved assassins.
> [{quoted}](name=ContempterX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-22T16:50:00.965+0000) > > Because people just won't care the fact that I have already poked her to 0 potions at lv 3 and at half health, all they care is the so-called "misstep" that I did and I then deserve to die instantly from almost full health. > > Why would you think a Qiyana would already be out of potions at lv 3 and at half health? How many "mistakes" do you think {{champion:246}} she made to bring her to this state? > > No they just won't care all they know is "yeah you misstepped that's why you deserved to be insta-gibbed", not to mention my original intention was to bait her in (As I said I was close to my turret's side and I have 3 minions near me), only to get totally surprised by this ridiculous burst". > > Because people won't realise the window of error for both champions are completely not equal > It takes tons of missteps for a mage {{champion:90}} to poke/kill a champion meanwhile all an assassin {{champion:246}} have to do is to find **ONE** to insta-gib you from nearly full health > > People just really won't admit that a real mage like {{champion:101}} will never be able to do the same shit at lv3, and continue to defend their beloved assassins. I'll be honest with you: your understanding of the game is on point. You realize there is a discrepancy, a different amount on skill is required to you; the Qiyana only needs one, very little, mistake, you need to be flawless, always, only **not to lose**. You realize that there is a problem. Your thread is literally spammed by two questionable individuals, one with an Akali icon, the other with, coincidentally, a Qiyana icon. They try to justify a 90% hp Malzahar with passive up, at level 3, being bursted in 1.5 seconds, from a respectable range. This very statement sounds ridiculous, problematic by itself, but they try to find some error you made; a posteriori, you obviously did, for you are dead. This means jack shit actually, because the gameplay involved in your death was plain unfair and idiotic. These people are the problem, because they think the kill they get with theirs broken, power-crept monstrosities are testament for their "skill". The champions they play are undoubtedly **incredibly hard to pilot**, but their "plays" are no different than "run at the enemy and burst him" - a Garen, basically; an **incredibly hard to pilot Garen**. True skill come for strategy, from landing skill shots, from interacting with the enemy and teammates, from predicting their actions, and from using your champion's mechanics in the optimal situation. But mechanics in themselves are not skills. lol playerbase is dwindling, and Riot is desperately implementing cash grab features as the ship is sinking. To me, that means that we are not alone in seeing there is serious issue with mobility and damage creep.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Look, I'm not denying that assassins deal a lot of damage, but that play from Qiyana was actually perfect. E-AA-Q-AA-WQ-AA-Ignite. If she flucked any part of that, she'd miss the kill.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=000700000001,timestamp=2019-08-22T17:24:44.090+0000) > > Look, I'm not denying that assassins deal a lot of damage, but that play from Qiyana was actually perfect. > > E-AA-Q-AA-WQ-AA-Ignite. > > If she flucked any part of that, she'd miss the kill. Is that play impressive to you? To me, that's... How Qiyana works? It's like being in awe at a Lee Sin wardjumping. Moreover, even admitting that "play" (i.e. dashing towards the enemy and spamming your kit, with AAs in-between the spells) was noteworthy, do you think the Qiyana somehow deserved the kill? A champion kit can be extremely hard to execute, but it's the output that matters in the end. We're witnessing a lv3 100-0 in a second or so, with zero counterplay for the Malzahar other than "concede cs and stay half a screen away". Qiyana did fine, but nothing more than executing her kit correctly.
: > [{quoted}](name=MiracleMorg94,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-08-22T16:24:39.794+0000) > > I won't argue that he screwed up, but assassins shouldn't be 100-ing at level 3, period. but they all do this, the Du Couteau's do it at lvl 2 if you ain't careful, one of them does it really easy the other you have to be a bit of a genius about.
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNLo3j6e,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T17:21:28.286+0000) > > but they all do this, the Du Couteau's do it at lvl 2 if you ain't careful, one of them does it really easy the other you have to be a bit of a genius about. Katarina doesn't do that at level 3. Maybe she can kill a 75% hp immobile mage, but not a 90% hp mahalzar with passive up. Moreover, Katarina **is not that fast** in bursting at this stage of the game, and her damage has **counterplay** (ie daggers AOE), which Qiyana does not.
Ink Rose (NA)
: Mariachi Qiyana Skin Concept
Insert "Eso es ràcista!" gif :^)
: I have disdain for Kayn as a champ. Id rather learn a jg i enjoy, i am learning amumu as well.
> [{quoted}](name=BuckyLovesSteve,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ABwevZgt,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-22T02:22:10.210+0000) > > I have disdain for Kayn as a champ. Id rather learn a jg i enjoy, i am learning amumu as well. If you keep playing those champions, you will rarely find enjoyment. What I dislike the most about recent League is that you are **required** to follow the meta. In S4 I used to rock on a 70% wr with Nautilus jungle. Even at that time that was consided a troll pick and I was flamed in champ select more than once. But I knew how to make that pick work and I put in serious difficulty **all** the meta junglers. Oh, those poor overconfident khas jumping on me only to be forced to flash away seconds later! You know what happens now if I dare to pick Nautilus jungle? I die while clearing. If a kha'zix appears on my screen, I explode, because damage is fun and tankiness is anti fun. The game is different from what it used to be. In the jungle more than anywhere else, your success rate is tied to how broken your pick is at the moment. If you want to learn to jungle, try one of those meta beasts else you will be too busy failing to learn anything and improve.
: Eh there are better ways to make Xin Zhao than tacking a decidedly mundane animal under him JUST because he's riding a horse in one of his splash arts. Seems contrived is all... Especially considering that we have more interesting mounts already in the game with Skaarl, Valor and Willump. You want Xin to be mounted fine, but let's do something better than a horse at the least.
> [{quoted}](name=mrmeddyman,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=3AXytAf5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-21T20:10:37.711+0000) > > Eh there are better ways to make Xin Zhao than tacking a decidedly mundane animal under him JUST because he's riding a horse in one of his splash arts. Seems contrived is all... > > Especially considering that we have more interesting mounts already in the game with Skaarl, Valor and Willump. You want Xin to be mounted fine, but let's do something better than a horse at the least. C'mon dude. Spear guy on an horse > spear guy Don't be anti fun. I'd really like to have a classical horse rider in the game. It's simple, it's common, but league lacks it.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: So you're telling me that combo assassins shouldn't exist because they are all about that kill potential? Does that mean Zed is a healthy champion, in your opinion? His utility is actually his own (just shadow swapping) and the burden of skill is entirely on him to use his kit to "perfection". And if you don't agree, what do you think a "perfect" assassin should feel and play like, while still retaining the Assassin class qualities - KILL POTENTIAL?
> [{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=fhEM4Jn9,comment-id=0001000000010001,timestamp=2019-08-20T21:58:07.765+0000) > > So you're telling me that combo assassins shouldn't exist because they are all about that kill potential? Does that mean Zed is a healthy champion, in your opinion? His utility is actually his own (just shadow swapping) and the burden of skill is entirely on him to use his kit to "perfection". > > And if you don't agree, what do you think a "perfect" assassin should feel and play like, while still retaining the Assassin class qualities - KILL POTENTIAL? I think that Zed is one of the **best designed** assassins, but is often **overturned** and thus is perceived as a problematic champion. Zed's most glaring problem is that he can drop a shadow on you and chunk 65% of your hp, but I tend to ascribe that to the insane damage creep the game has experienced through the years, and not to a fault on the champion design. Qiyana base kit is fair and interesting; her ultimate doesn't really fit on an assassin, though. Mostly is the AOE teamfight potential that denies agency to her target: of you're hit by the ult, your options are reduced to zero, you're stunned and that enables Qiyana combo on you with no further counterplay. Allies can't save you else they're caught in the same ultimate. That is very close to what an engaging tank ultimate is supposed to do, like Nautilus or Malphite. If Nautilus and Malphite would be intended to build full AP and burst people, we would have a design problem.
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GelsominoKiller

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