: Sett talks about being a half-breed, and talks about his fur, but....
Sett is 3/4 human, therefore an human appearence is appropriate. That said, more animalistic traits could have reinforced his origins. Him having some fur on his chest, while making his fur gilet an actual mane could have done all the difference in the world. Overall I am not displeased with his champion design, with the biggest frustration point to me being his hairstyle. As a fighter, you don't want hair on your eyes; there is no justification for that.
: Is anyone else not enjoying the new Diana update?
I guess complaints are unavoidable. You engage at lv3 with Lunar Rush expecting the same damage output Diana was able to do when Lunar Rush was her ultimate. I tell you: ofc the damage is not there. Your lvl6 engage kill potential was your reward for having survived the laining phase as a melee, and you were committing your ultimate ability. Now that her laining isn't a struggle anymore she must give something in return. It's only fair. I am sure that with enough practice you can adapt. Surely it's much more proficient than crying outrage and "I will never play Diana again".
: Sett is trite and uninspired
I agree and disagree. Sett identity is that of a pit fighter, and you'd expect him to be a lot more rugged and blunt, like a Darius or a Braum. Instead he looks pretty and juvenile. Also, him being a grown up momma boi is quite unique! That said, his attitude **is** trite, and his animalistic traits are minimal (this is justifiable because he's only half vastaya) but I don't mind. What you have me on board about is that his clothing and hairstyle are at odds with his brawling and fighting spirit. You could argue that he runs the business and doesn't fight anymore, but it would like having an armorless garen pretending to be a knight anyway.
KoKoboto (NA)
: Reduce Ivern brush CD please
Ivern is quite a problematic champion. He suffered a stream of harsh nerfs due to a short-lived dominance on proplay, and never regained basic functionality on many of his spells. For example, Daisy has an obscene CD and the durability of wet paper bag, and the brush CD is equally absurd. He was neutered and left to rot. Ivern is also a most peculiar champion because of his unique jungle playstyle: he needs stability and viability in order to attract a playerbase. In other words "I won't invest a lot of time and resources in learning unique clearing/invading paths for a jungle enchanter if he's trash on top of being an unrewarding champion". Playing Ivern also changes radically not only whenever Riot messes with his passive, but also with seasonal jungle changes. This only further exacerbates his unavailability as a common, immediate pick.
Falrein (EUW)
: Everything wrong with – Syndra, Kayle, Morgana
In my opinion the most glaring flaw in Kayle's character is her appearance. I just can't get over the armored leggings. Not that I dislike fit women in tight dresses, but in this case this attractiveness is extremely detrimental to everything Kayle is supposed to embody. Nothing speaks "ironclad justice from above" like a good old cameltoe. I guess a winged figure in an heavy, scintillating armor and an inflexible sentence coming out of a faceless helm is fine in order to deliver the concept, but doesn't sell enough skins...
Lighten (NA)
: Twisted Treelines Veteran Rewards?
The rewards are super mega bad, and we're not even getting them. Us TT players were a meme and died as a meme. In the afterlife? A meme
: > [{quoted}](name=GenoXx,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EAIZncnt,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-12-07T04:09:27.894+0000) > > they are all by fromsoft so it's still valid. The souls series isn't victorian bullshit with guns. It also kind of ruined DS3 since it used some of it's mechanics and art style. Absolute atrocity of a game. Long live Demons Souls and poise
I guess someone didn't manage to git gud enough to beat orphan of kos
: A random lore bit I found a while ago
: Challenger players are banning her in about 65% of games. No new release has had this high of a ban rate/pick rate AND win rate altogether in a long time. You're lying if you say otherwise. And even then, this requires a direct hotfix if across the board she is outmatching the majority of support champions. Especially when in high elo.
Well, release Mordekaiser was broken and reached similar stats, but was quickly nerfed. Numbers were enough to put him in line. Will they suffice for Senna, too?
: Nah the edges are just a progress bar for the charge. This post is otherwise correct as far as I'm aware, but the range starts at most of the range and reaches the maximum range very quickly.
I can confirm, it's just progress. Don't know why this post has so many downvotes though
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YL6bpilf,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2019-12-01T10:59:22.763+0000) > > I feel like the average Senna players undervalue Athene. > > Given how easily and safely Senna can deal respectable chuncks of damage, that item is fully stacked whenever Q is used, and that's +250hp per healing. > > I just witnessed my brother playing a decently fed (2/1/7) Senna that had her ADC backing at 20% hp due to an assassin aggression. I said to him "heal the ADC". He was skeptical, but trusted me. The ADC was back at 75% hp, he canceled the back in disbelief and typed "wtf" in chat. > > Don't tell me that's too far from what THE specialized healer Soraka can do. Senna will never outheal Soraka, it's just impossible. If she does, someone isn't doing things right with Soraka. As for Athene's, it's more to do with the item than the champion. I tend to play Soraka with Athene's, and oh boy, when that 700 HP heal hits...
Of course! Senna will never surpass Soraka Heal Per Second, and given what Soraka sacrifices for it, nobody ever should. But the heal per single cast of Senna and Soraka, accounting for Athene (Soraka will never stack it as safely and fast as Senna), is not that far . Soraka heals more still, but the point is that this albeit respectable difference isn't enough to justify giving up... the whole rest of Senna kit. Senna has much, much more going for her compared to Soraka, which is very specialized and has glaring weakness and risks to take (good design). So, is it really an argument to pick her over Senna?
: > It's just a pile of "how much bullshit can we randomly stack on this champion and oh wait and let's give her enough extra-healing on the side that she can out-perform a Soraka during lane-phase". I don't think she comes close to Soraka's healing in any way. Soraka's W is by far stronger and more accessible than Senna's Q (especially if you also max it first). Not to mention the healing she gets from her Q that she can conveniently transfer to her ally as well. Also, let's not forget about her R? I would, however, nerf her damage output and increase the cooldown of her passive when it comes to harvesting souls from the same target. Other than that, I personally don't find her that threatening.
I feel like the average Senna players undervalue Athene. Given how easily and safely Senna can deal respectable chuncks of damage, that item is fully stacked whenever Q is used, and that's +250hp per healing. I just witnessed my brother playing a decently fed (2/1/7) Senna that had her ADC backing at 20% hp due to an assassin aggression. I said to him "heal the ADC". He was skeptical, but trusted me. The ADC was back at 75% hp, he canceled the back in disbelief and typed "wtf" in chat. Don't tell me that's too far from what THE specialized healer Soraka can do.
Mártir (EUW)
: Please... Yuumi is unplayable, she sits ona 39%WR average, for so long.
I empathize with you, but at the same time I must agree that she's not exactly the champion I want to see in game. And no, I don't mean annoying and frustrating, I mean unfair and not balanceable. I've played with Ezreal+Yuumi when she was strong, and I don't wish to repeat the experience.
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U5GfJKlU,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-30T00:44:13.159+0000) > > Disclaimer: this post is not meant to be a complaint to Aphelios in any way. > > I have noticed Aphelios' cannon weapon, Gravitum, has an innate on its basic attacks: they apply a 30% decaying slow. > > This is effectively a free permaslow on a ranged carry. > > If you played this game at least as long as I did, you'll remember the sad story of league of legends permaslows: a mechanic that was deemed extremely powerful and costed many champions their viability for **years**. > > We're talking about Skarner, Olaf, Ashe and Frozen Mallet. Every one of them had their fair share of changes and reworks, often revolving around **the power budget and the innate toxicity that a permaslow entails**. > > At the time of the juggernaut rework, I remember that the main point of friction between Rioters and Skarner community was his permaslow. At the time, Riot was **adamant** in removing Skarner's permaslow, indicating it as the main reason Skarner had to be made into a non-champion for so long. > > Apparently, permaslow on a melee juggernaut was unthinkable for old Riot; new Riot slaps a permaslow on (an overloaded) ranged carry without a thought. > > Times have changed, but for the better? I think that the design and balance team have sacrificed important design principles like "power budget and fairness" on the altar of "flashy and sensational". uh ashe still has her permaslow xD
Did I deny it anywhere in my post? xD Riot learned through the years that permaslow is a strong mechanic that must be carefully implemented. This lesson is apparently disregarded with the new design team, that puts it on Aphelios without much thought. That's my point. Ashe was made unviable for a lot of time because of her permaslow, and she was allowed to be strong only with her rework, that revolved around implementing a permaslow mechanic without breaking the power budget and creating weakness for Ashe that her opponents could exploit. If you take a look at Ashe's kit, it completely revolves around the permaslow.
: Is it really a permanent slow if he can't permanently use that weapon? When he runs out of ammo for it, he has to cycle through four other weapons before returning to it, doesn't he?
Does it matter, though? He's going to have that weapon sometimes. Will the gameplay he creates in that moment be fair and balanceable? I don't have an immediate answer for that, not yet. Let me exaggerate the concept with an example: champion X has a passive that says that your AA have a 1% chance of instakilling any enemy. You could argue that he's balanced for any other external reasons, and that 1% is a very small chance. But in the moment you take a trade with champion X and die randomly, was it good and fair gameplay?
: ***
I'm going to pretend that you didn't lash out pointless personal attacks. I don't really care. You also didn't understand anything about my post. Not even the first sentence about it not being an Aphelios complaint. Of course Ashe permaslow is better. She is balanced around having it. She was reworked around having it working in an healthy way for the game. ASHE IS HER PERMASLOW. And don't pretend it hasn't been a point of concern in the past. Ashe was made unviable for a lot of time because of it. Honestly, half time through my response I stopped caring, so I won't comment on your questionable understanding of the concept of power budget or that part of "ranged permaslow is ok, but not on immobiles melees"...
Rioter Comments
: His numbers need to be nerfed. Thats the counterplay. His mechanics are fine, his kit is fine. He just does too much god damn damage.
Man, I fucking hope you're right and consistent damage nerfs will suffice. Because I think that Aphelios weapon combos are so cool! They remind me of some bullet hell spaceships game where combining different quirks for your lasers creates amazing situations. But for as much as I love his kit I strongly doubt that cutting numbers will do anything. I hoped so with Qiyana, hope so with Senna and I will hope so with Aphelios.
: What about making the best unicorn girl {{champion:16}} your waifu?
Genuinely forgot her. Added her back, but I am unsure where she belongs.
: Honestly, the whole racial make up of Runeterra is a mess. You have people like {{champion:145}} being native Shurimans of the desert while being as pale as the moon, and a red head like {{champion:89}} in a place like Targon where {{champion:80}} brown skin and Persian/ancient Greece features I assume are the norm. And let's not forget Aphelios and his sister that have very obvious Asian features, even if the aren't of Ionia. And speaking of Ionia, what's with {{champion:39}} ? She looks like she could come from Demacia. And let's not forget about the rest of the lore. We have black mageseekers if LoR cards are canon, even if in a very isolationist kingdom as Demacia immigration shouldn't be very common, aside from special cases like {{champion:5}} . Or that black lady protagonizing the Noxus story on Kumungu. Granted, she could be from a noble family of the recently annexed lands of Shurima, but the implication seems to be that her family has been on the empire for centuries, so, how do people of her native region look like?
Demacia is isolationist in terms of foreign politics but welcomes people of all races. As a matter of fact, Demacia was founded as a safe spot for all the refugees/survivors of the rune wars. Since the beginning Demacia was a mix of all races, and since the beginning the prejudice towards magic was there. It's no wonder that race wouldn't have any meaning for a Demacian, but all Demaciana despise magic.
: Mordekaiser
Mordekaiser is simply very strong right now because of new conqueror synergy. This demands his opponents to build grievous wounds, treating him as a Mundo or a Vlad, and most people haven't caught up with that yet. He's surely overpowered at the moment, but a rune is at fault. Changing his numbers will solve the problem but tie Morde's viability to conqueror state. About the kit, the frustrating points are the lack of counterplay when ulted or permaslowed by Rylai, and that's it.
: Rammus is not confirmed to be an Ascended Anyways... you forgot Udyr. Also, Alistar(minotaurs in general) is not a Vastaya
For Rammus, the possibility of him being an Ascended is hinted, and it looked like the most logical thing to me. I didn't want to further lengthen the post so I just put him there. Udyr is a shaman who channels animal spirits, but stays (mostly) in human form, that's why i kept him out. Genuinely curious about minotaurs... what is their origin? Are them yet another class of furries altogheter? I thought they were simply Vastayan.
  Rioter Comments
nelogis (EUW)
: Complexity trough Simple Design vs Complexity trough Complexity
This is a very smart post that I enjoyed reading very much. My compliments.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Fun fact. I got flamed when I played jayce till he got buffs because the community at the time considered him to be a weak champion.
Any champion can be strong or weak depending on numbers and meta favorability. Look at Garen: the most straight forward basic kit and yet he was stomping hard even in challenger after his buffs. The fact that Jayce has been very weak in a specific period of time doesn't change the fact that **his kit** is problematic.
Smyrage (EUNE)
: Isn't it complicated to play against a good {{champion:126}} or {{champion:60}} ?
With {{champion:126}} , you can't do shit. There is literally nothing specific you can do in order to prevent what he wants to do to you. Even trying to dodge his poke is out of the question: either he misses or he hits you. You respect his power, that's all: Jayce overall is very oppressive and lacks counterplay for those very reasons. With {{champion:60}} you must watchout for the cocoon, and have to keep in mind that she can repel (for stalling or towerdiving). She requires her opponent to think of her peculiar strenghts, yes.
Smyrage (EUNE)
: Are we just really admitting that majority of the LoL playerbase are low IQ, noobs, who have difficulty to understand enemy kits? I mean a lot of players still have difficulty against champs with the most simple kits, like Caitlyn. Surely a complex champion might blow their head off. Seriously, like every complicated champion, he will only appear at high elo as a solid pick. At low elo you won't see any functioning one. You should have learned by now, because he isn't the first champion, with complicated kit. {{champion:126}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:141}}
Are those champions really complicated **to play against**, though? You're missing the point in my opinion. While correctly executing those champions on a micro or macro level might be complex or very complex, their counterplay is quite straight forward for the enemy. Often a basic knowledge of their kits is more than enough to locate the immediate action required to play optimally **against them**. With {{champion:11}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:105}} you might want to keep your spells after they use their invulnerability, for example, and that's it. There is almost nothing else that you have to keep in mind playing vs those champions. With {{champion:134}} as her opponent you're not required to track her orbs in order to estimate her R damage output: the burden of knowledge is on the Syndra player and not on her opponent. As an opponent, all you have to do against Syndra is watching out not to be in line with her and an orb for a stun. With {{champion:498}} diving in could be suicide if her ult isn't baited out. Now, those are all examples of reasonable "burden of knowledge" for the enemy. My fear (for now, its just a fear) is that Aphelios will either require to be afraid and play around the **entirety of his arsenal all the time** or to study is kit in order to **distinguish which parts of his arsenal are effectively a threath at the moment**.
: Here's the difference between those things and the example that is used in the Rioter post: Qiyana's effects *to opponents* are simple: if her ring is x color, it's going to do this thing. That's it. 3 different colors, 3 different effects. For Aphelios, his guns are all very visually distinct, and all have a very specific effect, some of which don't even have that much of an actual effect on opponents (such as the scythe gun, which heals him. You don't have to be particularly worried about that one effecting you directly with some new function, just don't get hit). The issue with the Rupture example is, as I understand it, the DoT effect does not reveal to players what it does. You simply have to know that it causes damage from moving, without it being shown in the actual gameplay.
The point is the following: - anyone who wants to play Aphelios is required to invest a lot of time in understanding his spells and their different effects. This is completely fine and up to personal choice. - on the other hand, **literally everybody else** is required a similar investement in Aphelios' kit knowledge because of understanding how to play around him. Example: Aphelios pulled out this gun, very visually distinct from his other 4 guns. What am I, his opponent, supposed to do? What do I expect? Will I be rooted, marked, damaged etc or will Aphelios deploy a turret so should I stop my aggression? **What is the shape of the skillshot that I should dodge next?** Look, Qiyana is tolerable because her Q might have different effects but mostly remains a line short range skillshot. Whatever she's doing with her 2k19champ dashes is her stuff, what I know is that she's trying to get close to me. I have an idea of how to play against her. With Aphelios, I fear that the burden of knowing his kit won't be only on his devoted and invested mains, but on every league player.
: Rioters put more than you'd think into making these skins. So cut them a break guys
Skins are a product. A product is paid in money by the customer and is object of judgement. I utterly don't care - can't stress enough how much i truly don't - if Rioters are people. Everybody is people. What matters is that they are professionals, and professionals should have standards, skill and qualification for they are expected to deliver a certain task. If they fail their task, they should be held responsible for it. TL;DR: I won't refrain from saying my car is a chunk of junk because Joe who made it feels bad about my statement. If Joe is so sensitive, he can deliver a better car, next time.
: >Mobile, She's not mobile. Cut the bullshit. She's overpowered and needs nerfs, but saying straight up lies like that will only make your complain look like a brainless circlejerk coment. If a bit of MS counts as mobility champs as Orianna and Miss Fortune would count as mobile too, and they are not, just as Senna. There's enough reasons to list to why Senna needs nerfs, there's no need to invent more.
Senna is far from being mobile, but she has a good number of kiting mechanics. Her E for example can protect her from ranged autos, and speed her up to escape. On top of good movement speed, her passive grants her bonus movement speed based on her target's, which compensates for the long AA windup. It could be argued that such mechanics shouldn't belong on a champion with that many tools already.
Tworie (NA)
: I don't see why you should nerf anything in ARAM, because only bots play that mode. It's not hard winning against bots.
Imagine being so bad you're matched with ARAM bots MMR
: More proof that Shaco needs to be hammered down.
Wow, I didn't know the situation was that critical. In the good old days, when the best meme about the balance team was "better nerf irelia" and not the "+0.25s to Zoe Q CD at rank 5", stats like those would have triggered in Morello a knee-jerk giga Nerf reaction in the subsequent patch. Now somehow we call this game "competitive" even though it is acceptable to leave a champion that strong for so long.
: This is how I feel about getting someone to play a Tank. It's like some people are allergic to game-winning utility.
> [{quoted}](name=Variks the Loyal,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ei406kfZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-13T23:55:41.072+0000) > > This is how I feel about getting someone to play a Tank. > > It's like some people are allergic to game-winning utility. Tanks are completely unviable in pretty much any role, in every elo. Instead of pretending people to play tanks, pick a Maokai top yourself, vs a Renekton. The reason why everybody refuses to pick a tank will appear clear and bright to you. Unless you're one of those individuals that classifies Darius as a tank, then there is no discussion to make
Rioter Comments
Leetri (EUW)
: It gave 1000 HP at most, but it only gave health and 1,5% maximum health regen per second. The current Warmogs give a lot more stuff. For 350 more gold you got the following: -200 HP +3,5% health regen/second +200% base health regen +10% CDR Which in terms of raw gold means you get 458,7 gold more stats for only 350 gold. Now if the extra health regen and CDR is better than just 200 HP I don't know, I'm not good with builds. But you can't deny you get more for your money nowadays than before.
: > [{quoted}](name=Toddwick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZFAUbgv3,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-08T02:42:19.172+0000) > > I see you have accepted defeat I see you accepted defeat as well. A useless mode that provides no value serves no purpose. It's wasting resources better used elsewhere. Maybe you should have rallied your so called TT mains to keep it afloat and in new blood instead of using analogies like "SR is a burger while TT is a steak" please if TT is a steak then it must be one of those horrible ones you get in the generic brand of frozen meals.
Considering Riot hasn't touched TT in 5 years, the resources saved by removing it are literally zero. Also they could have implemented a data-driven approximate balancing, just like Aram recently. The problem with TT is that it is perceived by a large portion of the player base as a mini version of the rift, and so they say they'd rather play the original.
: So riot them twisted treeline rewards..... what the hell?
I can't blame Riot for being cheap, because the anniversary rewards were very generous. But surely I can blame them for valuing TT players (and Dominion too) next to zero. As a company, you shouldn't be removing game modes people enjoy, albeit a small community. But if you're hell-bent on doing so, at least show some appreciation.
: > [{quoted}](name=MorganFreemanBot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2019-11-02T22:12:06.344+0000) > > There shouldn't be any. > > Qiyana's ulti would be extremely strong with just the knock back + damage component, as it's still an immense nuke with a gigantic range that displaces numerous people and can afflict a positively massive zone depending on where you use it. > > Having a hard stun ONTOP of all of that is nuts. There's a reason she's pick / ban in the pro scene. lol pick/ban. Check the latest worlds finals and she barely shows up. She has abysmal waveclear, which cripples her lane prio, and she falls off hard like Katarina and Talon. Her whole kits revolves around the environment, so don't be damn next to a wall with a Qiyana in game, same as you wouldn't with a Poppy or Vayne. I can't believe people are still whining about assassins when worlds has been nothing but mages and adc's in mid lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2019-11-03T05:24:27.011+0000) > > lol pick/ban. Check the latest worlds finals and she barely shows up. Jesus Christ dude. At least look things up before writing that level of buffoonery
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: Except that Quyana herself is not like Zed or Talon. If she's behind, as an Assassin she's literally a no damage champion. She has to go in and can't kill anyone and can't get out. So the only thing for her is to have a utility through her R. If you want that removed, she now can be flashed out to not apply her E damage and her Q and R are skillshots. You have an assassin that's all skillshots and no CC whatsoever. Her mobility is conditional with W and there would literally be no reason to pick her again unless you buff up her damage to absurd levels so that one hit from her rock Q deletes half of your HP. And that's exactly how she's gonna be played as, in that hypothetical situation.
Look friend, all assassins from behind suck hard; some more than others. An assassin that when behind can still pull off a teamwide stun wombo with a single skill has it good. Too good, actually.
: > He didn't "need" the range increase because of Blitzcrank underperforming, but he "needed" it because of fleshing out his identity as "the hook". The identity of "hook" is very very unhealthy. Champs that have all their power in one spell almost always tend to be problematic. See aatrox, zoe and ofc blitz. Blitz specifically will either land a hook that will win the game (despite missing every other hook) or will miss and be a minion for a couple of seconds. > Before the nerf, he was sub-optimal in the sense that if you wanted to pick a champion with long range displacement, you were better off picking thresh, Nautilus or pyke, because they have much more to offer beyond their equally long hooks. Not really. He has the best hook (and had ofc) because it has no wind up. It is nigh instant (0.25sc). Whereas pyke needs to charge and thresh's has 0.5. Nautilus cant pass walls. So blitz can pass wall and is close to instant with similar range. > After all, getting grabbed by Blitz is worse, but Pyke's, Naut's and Thresh's hooks are pretty much a death sentence anyway, so it doesn't matter. That is because both thresh and pyke are overloaded as hell. And naut's damage is rather overtuned. > I support Riot in trying to preserve this newfound identity by nerfing something around it. Nobody really picks blitz for his armor, or crazy hook damage, but for the hook they do Thats even WORSE. So what riot attempts will lead to a situation where literally blitz will be a q bot. Because they will refuse to address his range (or cast time). Do you know why i hate blitz as a champ? Because if my team picks it chances are that he will miss everything and be a e bot. And instead of 5v5 it will be a 4.5v5.
> [{quoted}](name=Nyarlathοtep,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=busyHRis,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-02T00:27:28.719+0000) > Thats even WORSE. So what riot attempts will lead to a situation where literally blitz will be a q bot. Because they will refuse to address his range (or cast time). Do you know why i hate blitz as a champ? Because if my team picks it chances are that he will miss everything and be a e bot. And instead of 5v5 it will be a 4.5v5. This was true also before the range buff, though. Blitzcrank has always been a Q bot whose success depended solely on landing the grab. This is a kit-related issue that would still stand even if his Q range was nerfed by 100 instead of buffed by 100. He can only grab, but at least now he's unmatched in grabbing a far away target, and that's a reason to prefer him over his competitors, in certain situations.
: > He needed a Q range buff. That doesnt mean that it needs to be reverted if it makes him too strong. Theyre fleshing out his strengths and weaknesses better No he didnt? His winrate was just fine. The problem with blitz is his sole design. You miss? You are more or less useless (for a supp) for the next x seconds. You land? Too bad for the enemy. The target is completely isolated and he cant do anything to avoid his probable death (apart qss the knock up and then dashing/blinking away).
> [{quoted}](name=Nyarlathοtep,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=busyHRis,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-11-01T21:14:43.019+0000) > > No he didnt? His winrate was just fine. The problem with blitz is his sole design. You miss? You are more or less useless (for a supp) for the next x seconds. You land? Too bad for the enemy. The target is completely isolated and he cant do anything to avoid his probable death (apart qss the knock up and then dashing/blinking away). He didn't "need" the range increase because of Blitzcrank underperforming, but he "needed" it because of fleshing out his identity as "the hook". Before the nerf, he was sub-optimal in the sense that if you wanted to pick a champion with long range displacement, you were better off picking thresh, Nautilus or pyke, because they have much more to offer beyond their equally long hooks. After all, getting grabbed by Blitz is worse, but Pyke's, Naut's and Thresh's hooks are pretty much a death sentence anyway, so it doesn't matter. With this change Blitzcrank has an identity, something only him can do. I support Riot in trying to preserve this newfound identity by nerfing something around it. Nobody really picks blitz for his armor, or crazy hook damage, but for the hook they do
: Did I say balanced? I said "balance-able" in regard to her KIT MECHANICS being balance-able with simple number tweaks rather than changes in the mechanics. Please read and comprehend.
OMEGALUL is the most appropriate response You blame me for not reading nor comprehending yet you didn't notice I wrote "balanceable" too, in my post. And I meant exactly what I wrote: you can't design an assassin and slap a AOE teamfighting hard-CC nuke as their ultimate like it's nothing. It will never be balanceable.
iiGazeii (NA)
: The downsides of Senna
1) Her autoattack are slow, true, but they also deal bonus damage, speed her up, and have huge (and scaling) range. Overall I'd say her autos are different, but not weak whatsoever. This does make building attackspeed on her suboptimal, though. 2) Her bAD is tied with the mist, and that's a tradeoff. She gets free crit, but her crits deal less damage. This pushes her away from building crit items, but free crit is still free crit (at 25 minutes, she can reach 80% with one crit item) and there are other build options for her, like lethality or triforce. 3) Her Q is as dodgeable as a Lucian Q, and has huge range. The damage zone is not thin whatsoever, it's average. The mana problems and the big CD are a limitation only in the laining phase (that's good, but many many spells are mana and cd gated in the early game), while in the lategame the Q spam is absurd: she can Q every two autos, and its range scales with her attack range. 4) Fair point on the W. 5) Your statement doesn't really cut away a lot from her E power. While Senna's position might signaled, it's still team-wide camouflage with solid extra bonuses for those ones exiting the area. You don't know how many and which enemies are in there. Getting in there gives vision on the whole pack, but it is akin to facechecking a bush, can you afford it? Not always. Maybe several people were mistaken into thinking it was a moving, team-wide akali shroud, but the reality isn't so different: it's still an incredibly powerful, unique and versatile spell slapped on an already overloaded kit which promises nothing but balancing problems for the years to come. 6) Her ultimate has INSANE travel speed, and it is just as wide as a Lux R, which is the most comparable skill. Anything you can hit with a Lux R, you can hit with a Senna's R, roughly.
: Honestly the last GOOD designed champ was Qiyana, I think she still has some balance to figure out, but her KIT in general is very balance-able with simple number tweaks, rather than core mechanic changes which we see over and over again in other new releases since 2015....
LuL an hypermobile assassin with one of the strongest AOE teamfighting ultimates, balanceable and well designed. Just like an Akali with a malphite ultimate 100% pick/ban in proplay since release Nice meme dude
: No. Why? #1. Her Auto attack speed is HEAVILY gated. Although they are bad at describing it, she has a .5 second delay between auto attacks that you CANNOT REDUCE. Most champions have a .2-.3 Second Delay so this is SIGNIFICANT. --------------------------- Here's my problem with your assumptions: I've actually played Senna on PBE. Here's what I found: #1) In a controlled environment, it takes Senna about 17 minutes to hit 20 Mist souls, 22 minutes to hit 40, .... etc, and about 31 minutes to hit 80. IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT, aka when players aren't making her life hell. **2) This is what people are scared about: her massive range gain from stacks. Although her rate of fire is slow and cannot keep up with other adcs at all, she's insane at killing RUNNERS...... ONCE STACKED. In a perfect environment, 80-100 stacks results in a range where Senna can outrange turrets, and Q can extend to hit what seems like 2 adcs away. In other words, you can't peel.** Still.... this is controlled environment scaling. So far on the PBE, the most I have seen is 48 stacks, which is insignificant. I've actually hit and failed to kill a 20% Lucian with a fully built Lucian with her Ult. It's 500 base at tier 3, with a small bit of scaling. The primary benefit is it adds 150% of Mist souls to the barrier. The 100% AD is misleading because it doesn't crit, and her AD numbers stay small. --------------------------- In real play: I have yet to see a Senna be more impactful to a PBE game than an Ekko or Pyke. Ekko and Pyke are slaughtering games so fast Senna is irrelevant.
I appreciate you bringing your experience to the topic. It is very valuable. I tend to be skeptical about PBE-driven conclusions though, especially considering Yuumi released with a 35% WR while she was probably already on the strong side. On the topic of mist stacking, I have seen quite different numbers, and noticed that a lot of people struggle to figure out they can gain stacks from champions hit, too. I believe 85-90 stacks at 25 minutes will be the average for an experienced senna player, but that's a guess. Anyway, the numbers you reported are quite low, using as a source many Senna games on the web. Remember, also, that this is not inquiring about Senna's state of power, for even the simplest champion can be turned OP with enough number buffing (coff coff Garen). This is about Senna having so much stuff in her kit she'll risk either completely crowding out other champions, or being completely useless (the Kai'sa problem); at the same time, being so overloaded she'll risk being too strong for the best players, and too weak for everyone else, effectively preventing the majority of the playerbase from enjoying her (the Aatrox problem). She might even release with terrible WR, but she would still be fundamentally flawed. The attack delay is a good point, for it introduces a tradeoff somewhere that can compensate for something elsewhere. That said, while Senna's AA animation is longer than her colleagues, she gains Crit and range from mist collecting (I wouldn't say AD too because her bAD doesn't scale, apparently), and her autos deal bonus damage and grant her movement speed based off her target's. All in all, her autos are different, but not necessarily weaker (just like Jhin).
Smyrage (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=se9Fzn6m,comment-id=00120001,timestamp=2019-10-30T18:45:30.450+0000) > > That's a straight up false statement. Let me bring some facts: {{champion:84}} {{champion:266}} **took years (YEARS!!!!!!!!) worth of iterative changes, mini reworks, and several mechanics removal to gain some semblance of balance.** To this day, on those champions the gap between high diamond+ players and everybody else remains immense. Even now, they're still a problem and a point of frustration for players, and more changes are to come. Those two are just an example, but of the most recent champions i listed above, many others fall in this same sad history. > > When {{champion:62}} happened to be overpowered for a couple of weeks due to on-auto damage item stacking, **ONE SINGLE NERF was enough to put him in line and he stopped being a problem since that.** > > So yeah, can't really condone such statement. > > Random assumptions about me. I don't like one-dimensional champions, I think they should be reworked to modern standards. > You're completely biased and reason by extremes, like any design that isn't Senna-level of overloaded, must be Garen-level of stat check. **There is a SUPER WIDE GAP IN BETWEEN that we should aim for. Or are we just pretenting that 70% of the roster doesn't exist**, and that I hum am a big garen fan coz he easy n simple senna bad cuz she complicated. > > {{champion:238}} to me is an example of an extremely mechanically complex champion which doesn't happen to be overloaded. > {{champion:516}} is recent, quite straight forward, but far from being one dimensional. Good work needs time. Certain of their mechanics were indeed over the top, but you reason with extremes as well. There is literally zero problem that certain champions have gap between different elos, it comes with the fact that due to their complexity they are harder to play. I can only think of the Irelia rework, which was extremely busted, but that was due to a lot of factors, one among the many was the Conqueror. Aatrox was just never that broken. Neither was Akali that broken. You do realize that when a champion has many mechanics, they also trade efficiency on that specific mechanics? Because Senna seems like not being able to deal that amount of damage and dish out the same amount of healing. Also by your reasoning Sona is overloaded as well, because her Q empowers allied champion AA and pokes, W heals and shields and E grants speed. And dude, Zed might not be overloaded for you, but he is considered overloaded by quite many players for all the things he can do as an assassin. There is a reason mages loathe him.
> Good work needs time. Not years. Some iteration is allowable, but we're reaching non-sustainable levels: as new problematic champions are introduced, older problematic champions are yet to be fixed. Example: {{champion:266}} is one year and half old, and he boasts a mind-blowing 40% presence in patch notes, meaning that he has been changed monthly, and sometimes those changes aren't light work. Aatrox is still an issue far from being solved. {{champion:246}} is very recent, and she's pick/ban in competitive with all over the top stats. Her story has just started, but she's going though the same road Aatrox, Akali and others are in. If we keep releasing balance nightmares at this rate, the work they need to be fixed will accumulate and bring disaster. > Also by your reasoning Sona is overloaded as well, because her Q empowers allied champion AA and pokes, W heals and shields and E grants speed. ? Every single Sona spell does **one** thing: damage foes, protect allies, mobility for allies, CC and damage for enemies. Can't think of a less overloaded champion. > And dude, Zed might not be overloaded for you, but he is considered overloaded by quite many players for all the things he can do as an assassin. Ah yes, the many things Zed can do as an assassin, sure, conveniently omitted. What are those? Because Zed used to be proficient at assassinating and splitting, but his splitting potential was nerfed in season 3. Zed's kit is tailored toward outplay potential and single target assassination, which are pretty by-the-book for an assassin. Never ever have I seen somebody complain about Zed being overloaded. Zed being overpowered, unmanageable, unfair, many times. Overloaded? Never. {{champion:238}} P: extra damage on autos Q: damage in a line E: damage in a circle W: get some bonus AD, drop a shadow that mimicks your spells. You can swap positions with the shadow. R: dash to an enemy that will take bonus damage after a delay. Drop a shadow on cast, works like W shadow. Pretty darn straight forward my dude.
: how is kalista overloaded? do you mean Kaisa ?
No, Kalista. Exactly Kalista. {{champion:429}} is forced to be reduced to the shell of a champion she is now exactly because of that. Which is sad, to be honest. If I recall correctly, she was the very first (even before Azir) balance nightmare (i.e. a champion that requires one change every two patches and several years only to be either reworked or made useless). In desperation, the balance team even resorted to giving her an unprecedented non-100% AD ratio on her autos, but to no avail. Why you might ask? Well... if you decide to make a champion with unparalleled kiting potential with a dash every auto, you probably shouldn't give her hard-CC, very strong slows, and a reliable way to bring in your support for aid. When Kalista was released, her passive was unaffected by movement speed (only boot rank) and she was basically immune to slows. Oh, and she outsmites junglers.
Smyrage (EUNE)
: The thing is: mechanically complex champions are easier to balance, you just don't notice it, because you are not the one doing it. Sure, they can get overloaded sometimes, but it's easier to pull power from specific mechanics of a champion, then do raw statistical changes without ruining the champion altogether. You are flaming Riot's approach to new champions, but the thing is that if the game remained at the state of one dimensional champions like {{champion:1}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:11}} etc., then the game would have died out because they are not entertaining at all and can't be balanced at all. Also those one dimensional champions you really like are extremely hard to balance, because they can only do limited things. Like you see what happened when they buffed Garen. Garen is just a one dimensional champion, who is easy to play, but I believe nobody really supposed to play him after Gold rank. He can only do one thing and if balance breaks him, he can do the same thing way too good, which will result in him being extremely oppressive. Sure you don't like that they have less weaknesses than those adored one dimensional champions, but apart from you, nobody really likes when the game is decided at the draft and everyone likes to have impact on the game.
> The thing is: mechanically complex champions are easier to balance That's a straight up false statement. Let me bring some facts: {{champion:84}} {{champion:266}} **took years (YEARS!!!!!!!!) worth of iterative changes, mini reworks, and several mechanics removal to gain some semblance of balance.** To this day, on those champions the gap between high diamond+ players and everybody else remains immense. Even now, they're still a problem and a point of frustration for players, and more changes are to come. Those two are just an example, but of the most recent champions i listed above, many others fall in this same sad history. When {{champion:62}} happened to be overpowered for a couple of weeks due to on-auto damage item stacking, **ONE SINGLE NERF was enough to put him in line and he stopped being a problem since that.** So yeah, can't really condone such statement. > Also those one dimensional champions you really like Random assumptions about me. I don't like one-dimensional champions, I think they should be reworked to modern standards. You're completely biased and reason by extremes, like any design that isn't Senna-level of overloaded, must be Garen-level of stat check. **There is a SUPER WIDE GAP IN BETWEEN that we should aim for. Or are we just pretenting that 70% of the roster doesn't exist**, and that I hum am a big garen fan coz he easy n simple senna bad cuz she complicated. {{champion:238}} to me is an example of an extremely mechanically complex champion which doesn't happen to be overloaded. {{champion:516}} is recent, quite straight forward, but far from being one dimensional.
Moody P (NA)
: Probably one of the most interesting supports we've gotten. I'd rather have more of this than more of whatever boring ass champions you guys like - KogMaw meta for you maybe, LOL
I agree. But we're not talking "interesting" here. We're talking overloaded. Aatrox and Camille (right now) are interesting, but not overloaded. Senna and Kalista interesting, but overloaded. Overloaded champions tend to be problematic and end up unenjoyable for everybody after a long and exhausting series of nerfs, changes, mechanics removals and compensation buffs.
: I play both roles. If you see Senna use this you back up and wait for it to end unless you know you can win. It's that simple. You respect it like you would Blitzcrank hook. Not to mention skillshots still work.
I'll play the devil's advocate here: - isn't blitzcrank his hook? While Senna has many other things going for her, blitz plays around his hook. Remove the shroud from her, Senna is still a fully fledged champion. Remove blitzcrank hook, he's nothing. That's why the point is being overloaded, and not the mechanic itself. Sure, a mechanic can be respected and played around, but when they become so many, it's pointless.
Show more

GelsominoKiller

Level 164 (EUW)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion