: Preseason: Rise of the Elements on PBE!
Any chance that we could see major changes not in the preseason later down the line this year? In particular a crit rework to remove its RNG and fix the major issues the current unhealthy implementation has, as we were told was going to happen somewhere around 2 years ago.
Meddler (NA)
: We don't have any plans for large midseason changes next year no. While some players liked them sentiment was overall that it introduced both too much change per year and was disruptive during a period where players wanted stability from a competitive experience (both ranked and ESports). Regarding jungle timers for normal camps from what we've seen lack of timers there doesn't add meaningful skill for experienced players but does add significant barrier of entry for new players. Jungle's already a hard role for many to get into so making that harder doesn't seem useful. Additionally, while we're not currently changing respawn timers, it's something we expect we'll do at some point. The relearning that creates has been a frequently called out pain point from junglers, so we'd like to be able to tune when needed but with less friction created. Preseason's a good time to add functionality like this, given we're doing some UI work anyway so have the needed people temporarily on team.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=yAQGW1k0,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-10-18T17:20:39.743+0000) > > We don't have any plans for large midseason changes next year no. While some players liked them sentiment was overall that it introduced both too much change per year and was disruptive during a period where players wanted stability from a competitive experience (both ranked and ESports). > > Regarding jungle timers for normal camps from what we've seen lack of timers there doesn't add meaningful skill for experienced players but does add significant barrier of entry for new players. Jungle's already a hard role for many to get into so making that harder doesn't seem useful. Additionally, while we're not currently changing respawn timers, it's something we expect we'll do at some point. The relearning that creates has been a frequently called out pain point from junglers, so we'd like to be able to tune when needed but with less friction created. Preseason's a good time to add functionality like this, given we're doing some UI work anyway so have the needed people temporarily on team. If that is the case, then any crit rework to remove its RNG is not gonna happen for another full year? In that case, is there any chance you could put that crit rework into preseason still? Because the current anti-skill implementation of crit continues to ruin games daily, and is in dire need of a fix, and waiting another year is just not acceptable.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 12
Its been 2 years now since we were told by Ghostcrawler that we would get a crit rework that removes its RNG to fix the issue with output randomness. Since then, not only has that rework not materialized, there has been complete radio silence. Can we please just be told if this rework, undoubtedly one of the best and most important changes league would ever see is still happening? Or if the hope of fixing crit, and its design of promoting luck and devaluing skill is dead, and that those who dont want a game where luck can win a game on its own can just leave. Its frustrating holding out for years for a fix that might never happen, with a game that without that fix, simply isnt enjoyable enough.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 5
Its been 2 years now since we were told by Ghostcrawler that we would get a crit rework that removes its RNG to fix the issue with output randomness. Since then, not only has that rework not materialized, there has been complete radio silence. Can we please just be told if this rework, undoubtedly one of the best and most important changes league would ever see is still happening? Or if the hope of fixing crit, and its design of promoting luck and devaluing skill is dead, and that those who dont want a game where luck can win a game on its own can just leave. Its frustrating holding out for years for a fix that might never happen, with a game that without that fix, simply isnt enjoyable enough.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 14
Will we ever get official confirmation if crit still is planned to lose its RNG? When it was mentioned by Ghost Crawler back when he was the lead dev, it was a very important announcement, finally fixing one of the, if not *the* biggest problem with the entirety of the ADC role and by extent the game as a whole. Yet now it seems to have been forgotten alltogether, leaving the future of the stat, and whether it will be made healthy and if the removal of output randomness as a factor in fights still is coming has become uncertain.
: > [{quoted}](name=Generic Ninja,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x419E12T,comment-id=000a00020000,timestamp=2019-06-09T15:12:42.213+0000) > > But ... she does suffer psychological and physiological consequences. Ignoring for a second how her legs literally open up and show weird void tissue, and how the only part of her that remains mostly human is her face and that stupid V-neck (though personally, I wouldve gone further and made only parts of her face remain human, and definitely gotten rid of that stupid V-neck), even psychologically she is quite stunted. Besides her own difficulties with her missing humanity, and her poor social abilities (if she has any), she also has an incredibly railroaded mind. Its focused on one thing, and one thing only, on a level we dont see in most champions. She doesnt even have a proper joke or emote. Her level of one-track-mindedness puts even Pyke and Nautilus to shame who both at least have some sense of humour. Ok, let me clarify: *believable* psychological and physiological consequences. Because I have kind of an hard time considering as a "consequence" what is essentially a latex suit with a "conveniently placed opening", while her face is unscathed with perfect makeup and hair. The shoulder pads are good, though. Had her a rougher design, I wouldn't be so harsh. But I am not against her concept. What you said is correct, smart, on point: total apathy is a way, if not the only way, for a little girl to survive all of the above. But then, show it to me. Make me understand that she is devoid of emotions, that she had to be. Tell me that the symbiote had some role in this, that when she was scared and paralyzed by fear, the symbiote recognized her as unfit for survival and started compensating. Even then, "no emotions" is *not that simple*, and must be explored in its psychological aspects. As things are, I am more inclined to think this is not a problem of poor execution, but they simply didn't bother delving into a challenging piece of character building. Then you have a void symbiote growing on her skin, which only function is granting her super powers. The problem is... that's not a radioactive spider's bite, and she is not Spiderman. *She's Venom*. Show me her relationship with her newfound skin. Show me that the is *hungry* sometimes. Show me the thing to be *alive*. The symbiotic relationship is yet again completely ignored, another proof of poor quality design. There's a SHITTON of unused narrative space there.
> [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x419E12T,comment-id=000a000200000000,timestamp=2019-06-10T06:26:33.584+0000) > > Ok, let me clarify: *believable* psychological and physiological consequences. > > Because I have kind of an hard time considering as a "consequence" what is essentially a latex suit with a "conveniently placed opening", while her face is unscathed with perfect makeup and hair. The shoulder pads are good, though. Had her a rougher design, I wouldn't be so harsh. > > But I am not against her concept. What you said is correct, smart, on point: total apathy is a way, if not the only way, for a little girl to survive all of the above. But then, show it to me. Make me understand that she is devoid of emotions, that she had to be. Tell me that the symbiote had some role in this, that when she was scared and paralyzed by fear, the symbiote recognized her as unfit for survival and started compensating. > > Even then, "no emotions" is *not that simple*, and must be explored in its psychological aspects. > > As things are, I am more inclined to think this is not a problem of poor execution, but they simply didn't bother delving into a challenging piece of character building. > > Then you have a void symbiote growing on her skin, which only function is granting her super powers. The problem is... that's not a radioactive spider's bite, and she is not Spiderman. *She's Venom*. Show me her relationship with her newfound skin. Show me that the is *hungry* sometimes. Show me the thing to be *alive*. The symbiotic relationship is yet again completely ignored, another proof of poor quality design. There's a SHITTON of unused narrative space there. But its not a "latex suit". The V-neck and the face are dumb, but beyond that its quite clearly her entire body being transformed into a voidborn construct. Hence why the version with the helmet (that also closes up the V-neck) actually works, and why fixing the whole design just requires to make that form mandatory. Its unlikely that the Symbiote *had* a role in it. Its not sentient, and its certainly not capable of the complex analysis and adjustment require to change someones personality. The fact that its been consuming her did play a part, but we do get that from her voicelines. Well, no, shes not Venom. The Venom Symbiote is sentient. It takes over the mind of its host. The second skin is not, because very very few voidborn are sentient, and the ones that are, wouldve killed Kaisa. The thing isnt shown to be alive because it isnt, exactly, alive. Its more of a slowly corrupting force, and we do see it corrupting, hell thats what Kaisas "joke" emote is. I think this is part of the problem, people seem to miss the point of the void and the second skin, that being that the void consumes and takes over all. Its "symbiotic" in the sense that it helps Kaisa hunt so it can consume. But that works on an extremely primal level. There isnt really much of a symbiotic relationship beyond it turning Kaisa into a hunter so that it has prey to consume (which we also get from the voicelines).
: That’s true but i also raise you a sylas. Who has been imprisoned for about 20 years suspended by the arms and had nothing to eat but rats yet he escapes looking like a model for old spice.
> [{quoted}](name=IceKingChernobog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x419E12T,comment-id=002d,timestamp=2019-06-09T20:01:38.298+0000) > > That’s true but i also raise you a sylas. Who has been imprisoned for about 20 years suspended by the arms and had nothing to eat but rats yet he escapes looking like a model for old spice. He wasnt suspended by the arms though? Weve seen in multiple forms of media (comic, video, artwork) that he had quite a lot of freedom in his cell. In fact, based on all weve seen, the chains did not restrict him at all in his cell. And he was certainly fed, if they wanted to kill Sylas, they couldve, instead of just putting him in isolation.
YaraUwU (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x419E12T,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2019-06-09T15:33:30.106+0000) > > I guess you haven't smelled or seen burned flesh in real life then xD Or bones puncturing skin, or the puss that comes later. > Maybe the real life experience has ruined it for me. Well its symbiosis not parasitic brutality. The body and monster would mold into one being. I have seen and will have my fair share of surgeries thats not the appearance im going for. Think more Kerrigan from starcraft where the strongest part of the human and zerg races are formed into one creature.
> [{quoted}](name=YaraUwU,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x419E12T,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2019-06-09T17:53:28.931+0000) > > Well its symbiosis not parasitic brutality. The body and monster would mold into one being. > > I have seen and will have my fair share of surgeries thats not the appearance im going for. > > Think more Kerrigan from starcraft where the strongest part of the human and zerg races are formed into one creature. Thats just it, it *is* parasitic brutality. Both her backstory and her voiceline make it very clear that Kaisa had no choice in whether or not the void skin grafted onto her, and has no hope of ever getting it off. Its been slowly consuming her, and she is worried if she doesnt keep it sated, it will fully consume her. Kerrigan is a human-zerg hybrid for ... whatever stupid plot reason that was, I dont recall. A human-void hybrid doesnt work. It misses the whole point of the void as a place and as a concept, that being that the void does, in fact, corrupt and consume everything. Kaisas appearance, beyond the fact that she has too many humanoid parts (and the V-neck is stupid) does make perfect sense.
: > [{quoted}](name=StonePlatypus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x419E12T,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-06-08T23:56:23.670+0000) > > I'm so sick of the "went to the void and came back unscathed" argument. > > Kai'sa is top tier. > > Her mind is strong. > > Maybe YOUR mind might get crushed by the void, but she is a LEGEND. > > The game is called League of LEGENDS. > > There has to be one (or more) characters that can handle the void. > > Traumatic events and terrible things do happen. > > There are those who crumple like paper, and there are those who are tempered by adversity. > > :P Just because you think (and are wrong) that everyone should be broken beyond repair doesn't mean your opinion is worth anything. > > My guess is you have a major turn on for the void and are angry that it didn't swallow and spit her up. > > Or maybe you don't look further into characters or their nuances. > > Either way your opinion is a dime a dozen, and I feel quite incorrect. > > Haven't looked at the new champion yet, but by your gross miss representation of Kai'sa I'd have to assume she's amazing since you seem to be the most kind of wrong. > > But hey, let's not get hurt feelings over anything. This is just a video game after all, just stating my opinion here too. (though I am right) Sure, a regular eleven years old trapped out of the sunlight for 10 years, ALONE, witnesses everybody she knew and loves being devoured or crushed, gets a ravenous void symbiote growing as her skin, is perpetually hunted by alien abominations... .... and she suffers *literally* zero psychological AND physiological consequences... "because she stronk, top tier". Such a believable justification, now everything is explained. Silly me to ask why... I don't know man, to me that's objectively trash tier character building. Completely unrealistic, no connection between a character and her past. It doesn't get much more amateurish than that. It's the same level you would expect from a 13 years old kid's fan fiction. I mean, do you actually know what 10 years of isolation ALONE can do to the human mind? Shouldn't we at least take it into consideration? But if you want to keep thinking you're right that's fine.
> [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x419E12T,comment-id=000a0002,timestamp=2019-06-09T14:48:21.066+0000) > > Sure, a regular eleven years old trapped out of the sunlight for 10 years, ALONE, witnesses everybody she knew and loves being devoured or crushed, gets a ravenous void symbiote growing as her skin, is perpetually hunted by alien abominations... > > .... and she suffers *literally* zero psychological AND physiological consequences... "because she stronk, top tier". Such a believable justification, now everything is explained. Silly me to ask why... > > I don't know man, to me that's objectively trash tier character building. Completely unrealistic, no connection between a character and her past. It doesn't get much more amateurish than that. It's the same level you would expect from a 13 years old kid's fan fiction. I mean, do you actually know what 10 years of isolation ALONE can do to the human mind? Shouldn't we at least take it into consideration? > > But if you want to keep thinking you're right that's fine. But ... she does suffer psychological and physiological consequences. Ignoring for a second how her legs literally open up and show weird void tissue, and how the only part of her that remains mostly human is her face and that stupid V-neck (though personally, I wouldve gone further and made only parts of her face remain human, and definitely gotten rid of that stupid V-neck), even psychologically she is quite stunted. Besides her own difficulties with her missing humanity, and her poor social abilities (if she has any), she also has an incredibly railroaded mind. Its focused on one thing, and one thing only, on a level we dont see in most champions. She doesnt even have a proper joke or emote. Her level of one-track-mindedness puts even Pyke and Nautilus to shame who both at least have some sense of humour.
YaraUwU (NA)
: I dont dislike boobs. {{champion:21}} is my favorite champion i never get to play. And either way why would a void creature turn into clothing even if it was dead. Its not its nature and its not optimal by its standards at all. symbiotic means they live off each other. But kaisa has nothing model wise that remotely says "im keeping this thing alive and its keeping me alive"
> [{quoted}](name=YaraUwU,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x419E12T,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-09T02:30:59.417+0000) > > I dont dislike boobs. {{champion:21}} is my favorite champion i never get to play. And either way why would a void creature turn into clothing even if it was dead. Its not its nature and its not optimal by its standards at all. symbiotic means they live off each other. But kaisa has nothing model wise that remotely says "im keeping this thing alive and its keeping me alive" Actually it is in its nature. The Voidborn, as well as the material essence of the void, were created by the watchers with a very limited amount of sentience (Read: basically none for the most part). They only seek to consume. And thats what the skin is doing. Its consuming Kai'sa slowly (something she notes herself), but also helps her hunt so the skin can consume the hunted. Its not doing it consciously because it isnt conscious. Its little more than the most basic instinct of the void.
YaraUwU (NA)
: Just a quick thought for anyone that thinks Qiyana is the dullest champion to date. Kai'sa exists.
Honestly, while Kaisas current visual design is bad, its also ironically incredibly easily fixed. Just make her helmet form baseline, remove the toggle (so Helmet Kaisa is the only Kaisa you get to see) and replace the hair with something more voidlike. Boom, thats already a decent design. Now, if you want her to still have a relatively humanoid face, give her a way to show it in an emote, probably a taunt, but then also have the face be in the process of being assimilated. Make her left eye replaced by void tissue, with void tissue encroaching on the rest of it, and have her face be more, well, trodden I guess. I have to thoroughly disagree on the kit though. The kit is great, and making her ult be her going berserk just completely misses the point. The second skin, the void absorbing her slowly isnt conscious. Its not supposed to be. Void creatures by and large do not have sentience, we are simply used to it because the specimen we saw are the pinnacle of the evolution. The point is that Kaisa has a void symbiote on her slowly taking over, but also giving her the abilities to fight the void, and her kit is fine for that.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 7
Hail of Blades also interacts poorly with Twitchs Q, as it only triggers after the second attack, and does not give a speed boost until the third attack (making what could be a good Twitch rune pretty ineffective).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 17
Any chance we could finally get an update on that promised crit rework that removes its RNG, or even on whether or not it was canned and if so, why?
: Item Shop Cleanup
Any chance you can include the crit rework that eliminates its randomness completely that weve been told would happen? It would fit in nicely with the idea (especially since you seem to be planning to remove some of the zeal items anyway), and would finally bring that dark chapter to a close.
: lol you don't want my gameplay thoughts, I'm not a dev so I don't have to be reasoned or objective with my answers
> [{quoted}](name=RiotAether,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o3EqFAA2,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2019-03-29T18:06:58.560+0000) > > lol you don't want my gameplay thoughts, I'm not a dev so I don't have to be reasoned or objective with my answers Any chance you can tell us if the crit rework that removes its output RNG (That was told us was planned a couple of times over the past years) is still a thing, or has it just been canned?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 27
Can we just please finally get some words on the current state of crits output randomness? Its still causing major problems, and the rework that would completely eliminate its output randomness, that we were told a long time ago was still happening at that time is not even on the Horizon.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 20
Any chance of further Akali buffs now? She has seen mild play in competitive recently (mostly as a Yasuo counter, not very effectively outside of it), so Im worried she might be considered unfit for further buffs despite her current poor state overall.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 15
Does that mean we shouldnt expect the crit rework that fixes the problems that happen due to its status as output randomness (devaluing skill, promoting luck, and making strategies that arent foolproof effectively meaningless) to happen for another year? Thats unfortunate, I had hoped when it was mentioned 2 years ago that it would happen sooner rather than later.
Meddler (NA)
: I think crit items are around the right mark as are most marksmen. We think Ezreal's too strong and will be looking to take some power out of him in 9.6, probably hitting his AP ratios which are carrying a lot more weight with the builds he runs nowadays.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BiJm4R5E,comment-id=001a0000,timestamp=2019-03-06T17:32:24.967+0000) > > I think crit items are around the right mark as are most marksmen. We think Ezreal's too strong and will be looking to take some power out of him in 9.6, probably hitting his AP ratios which are carrying a lot more weight with the builds he runs nowadays. Given that the balance side is going well, any chance that the crit rework to solve its design issues (primarily its reliance on output RNG, causing frustration and promiting luck as an important factor) could be confirmed to still be happening?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 13
Speaking of crit, weve been told before that there were plans to rework crit to remove its RNG entirely (to make it more healthy). With the recent crit item change being arguably a step backwards (reintroducing RNG into the laning phase with the deterministic Stormrazor being replaced by IE and Zeal item rushes), is the project cancelled, on hold, or is it going to happen sooner than were expecting?
Kazekiba (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Generic Ninja,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2uXMU488,comment-id=001200010004,timestamp=2019-02-08T19:33:44.421+0000) > > Surely just bringing her base stats up to standard, given that she just lost her only sustain in lane, would be a buff that isnt risky at all? As it stands her laning is essentially impossible, and she has to hope the opponent DCs to even be able to farm. Small stat buffs at first, reducing the lockout on her R2, lowering the energy cost on her Q early ranks but remove the energy restore on her shroud. Why does she GAIN energy for casting an ability, when her passive already has her energy refund anyway?
Simple, actually. To make the ability less universally good. You have to consider whether you burn it for energy regen, or cast it early to avoid damage. Its also the reason her Q energy cost is so absurdly high.
Meddler (NA)
: We don't want to just put power back into Akali without some confidence we're doing so in a healthier way. Realize that sucks for a couple of patches and apologies. Goal is a better long term state so her balance doesn't bounce back and forth constantly.
Surely just bringing her base stats up to standard, given that she just lost her only sustain in lane, would be a buff that isnt risky at all? As it stands her laning is essentially impossible, and she has to hope the opponent DCs to even be able to farm.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 8
So several Rioters (in particular Ghostcrawler) have mentioned that there were long-term plans to rework Crit to remove the RNG out of it, as its unhealthy and causes a lot of problem. With the most recent crit item changes being unfortunately a step backwards in reducing that unhealthiness, can you tell us whether those plans still exist and if yes, what the ETA on them is?
shabingi (NA)
: does this apply to future certainlyT champions since almost all of his are some of the worst offenders?
Ya mean, except for the part where they arent, right? Akali is borderline (Technically being an assassin whose burst is highly delayed and who is fairly weak are significant weaknesses, but not sufficient ones it seems), but beyond that? Zoe is one of the most weakness-defined champs in the game, Zyra has a lot of weaknesses (and her current state is a simply numbers issue), Warwick has well-defined weaknesses, as do Graves and Mordekaiser (shortcutting here because they all basically have the same, and they all are obvious), as do Thresh and Kalista. Even Yasuo has very well defined weaknesses despite how much bad players like to claim otherwise. So of his 11 champs, you can only really say that 1-2 (Kalista, she does sort of have weaknesses but they sort of are irrelevant) at all apply here. Thats not "almost all" thats barely 10%.
: Champion Weaknesses in 2019
Given this whole weaknesses thing, any chance Lee Sin will get looked at? If there is any champion that can be described as having no weaknesses, its the one whose pick rate never falls below 30%. Because there is never a bad situation to pick lee in. He is powerful, extremely safe, has no real counters, nor any weaknesses.
: Are you fucking kidding? Burst my bubble? Are you joking? Talking about counterplay you retort and write... >Zoe is straight up a skillshot mage so you can dodge that stuff. I link a clip where the skillshots ARE DODGED, and she still wins........... with autoattacks..... that cant be dodged, but you know, shes a "straight up skillshot mage, you can dodge".......... ugh huh... AND ALL OF THIS... in a thread about CertainlyT champs being overloaded. That clip shows Zoe missing 2 skillshots, that YOU CLAIMED dodging is her counterplay, then she wins the fight anyway... YOU name any other "Straight up skillshot mage" that misses 2 skillshots that YOU CLAIM is the counterplay then wins the fight hard like that? The only way that happens is if the champ has a bunch of overloaded bullshit in their kit, like Zoe. So what is it? You dodge her skillshots and thats the counterplay, or you get killed after exhausting your counterplay? Just argue whatever suites you I guess, even if its completely contradicts the other thing you just said, I recommend a career in politics. And for yasuo youve clearly either never laned against him, or played him if youre making that dash argument. Most are content to auto attack minions or use their Q for last hits, they dash WHEN you try to hit them... wow, your arguments are comical. Im sorry, really. Make another response where you contradict yourself again, Im ready.
I can name a lot of them, actually. Nidalee (does it way better), Jayce (not technically a mage because mage implies AP but you get the idea, also does it way better), AP Kog'Maw, Neeko, Ziggs, Orianna, Ahri, Veigar, Brand, etc. etc.. The list goes on for a while actually. So, uh, no. This happens any time a champion exists. In fact, I will counterask a simple question. How many mages can you list where they cant kill you after you dodge their skillshots, even if you fuck up completely and they have ignite and Electrocute? I know 1, but he is the only one. I have. Thing is, if he does that, you auto him out of lane and use your point and click spells. He will have to dash sooner or later. And once he does, you hit him. Besides, his dash is slow enough that a lot of AoE hits him anyway.
: You have posted one link to patch notes and that's it there's not a single one more. Post link to where they said the changes were a test and I'll start to believe you and even then it's been years that this issue hasn't been touched at all if this was indeed a change it would have continued to be tested until perfected and implemented for good. If you repeat both experiment you'll get exactly the same result randomness doesn't exist in computers so both will have the same outcome, but if you change slightly, that means change who the mid laner is so they think abotu the game differently and have a different playstyle they will do something different, and if you change the variable your auto will crit or not differently. Okay so it existed well then doesn't say it could be improved on. And still it's just one game, it's important but still only one game so doesn't have more importance than even a bronze game or an aram, it has more consequences for the players but it's like complaining about the luck needed in poker, you need skill in poker but if you're unlucky you can't win well if it's the same in lol then so be it everyone has the same chance so where's the problem. The bad luck protection could be improved on especially if it's only logarithmic, oh and btw even if it's logarithmic it can go to 100% crit chance because lim(x=>infinity)log_n(x)=infinity so ye if x is the amount of autos without critting you will have an x for which the crit chance is 100%, howerver take the function -e^-x and you have lim(x=>infinity)-e^-x = 0 there's an horizontal asymptote so a limit if this 0 corresponds to 100% crit then you'll never reach it but will get infinitely close, so close that the computer will take it as 100% but anyways let's say we have a Turing machine so we get infinitely close to 0 it's till not what you said, if you said exponential sure but you didn't so your argument is invalid. So how this system could be improved on is being deterministic in frequency (while still allowing events with like 20% or so chance to occur to occur) but not at all by removing crit like Ashe if they did then crit items would be useless because why not just make gives x ad instead of gives x crit that would be the exact same result, crit would lose all its interesting value. <Removed by Moderation>
I also posted a link to Ghostcrawlers tumblr where he explains that Crit is bad and is going to be reworked in the long run. Though, apparently it converted into an image of a scuttlecrab? I dont have any idea how formatting on boards works, so I guess thats a thing? Not really. They touched up on stealth once in 2012 with Twitch and Evelynn. Then they didnt touch stealth again (despite saying that it would need some more changes in the future) until 2016. Thats just how Riot operates. They work in projects, and projects rarely follow another of the same type. Its not new. First of all, thats semantics (and also not entirely correct). Second, even if we were to go by semantics, no it wouldnt. If you repeat it, you dont turn back time (since yknow, thats not possible), so its going to be a different result. With the other one it wouldnt, because it was deterministically chosen. Of course it couldnt be improved on. Because youre not fixing the problem, youre just making it less likely. If you push Pseudo-RNG to the point of being deterministic, you have no reason to have crit in the first place. But even beyond that, first, the fact that just that one game was ruined by crits RNG is more than enough reason to get rid of crit. Because it shows that even at the highest level, in the worst moment, skill can be beaten by luck. Skill gets devalued. The other problem is, it wasnt just that one game. It happens all the time. And the problem is that skill gets devalued. Well, actually there is a number of problems. Crit being random: devalues skill, destroys strategy, causes massive frustration and creates balance and design issues. No it couldnt. Even if you force it into being non-logarithmic (and then risk it being abusable), you never can get rid of the fact that skill will be beaten by luck countless times every day. Because thats what being random does. Also, I already mentioned that above. Unless the PC rounds down at some point, it never reaches 100% or 0%. It approaches it, but never gets to it. The Ashe system is strictly superior. But as for the question "well why not have it give AD". Easy. AD buffs abilities. Crit does not. Crit is a multiplicative stat. What makes it interesting is that it increases the effectiveness of other stats, and incentivizes attacking without buffing spells. The fact that its random is what makes Crit badly designed and frustrating, not interesting. No, I have universally recognized ideas based on decades of game design theory. Something that shouldve been a dead giveaway by the fact that the, at the time, design director of league agrees. On the other hand, will you be able to find a single rioter who says crit being random is good? I doubt it.
: If youre wondering why youre getting downvoted so bad... I mean saying stuff like: >Zoe is straight up a skillshot mage so you can dodge that stuff. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/uNdE3pLP-this-was-an-outplay-dont-be-fooled Zoe has since been nerfed a bit, and thats why you dont see her as much... cause like all CertainlyT champs, she has "back up bullshit" in her overloaded kit to make up for the weakness of being able to "dodge" her stuff. Just like Yasuo, who has a a shield that goes off when hes hit, and a wind wall, and 6 dashes every wave to make trying to hit him with an ability a waste of time.... He should be at a disadvantage to a mage, but has a bunch of extra bs in his kit to cover him.... cause you know... they lack counterplay.
Uh, Im sorry to burst your bubble, but *literally all* poke champs have back up damage ontop of their poke. And to burst it further, Zoes is among the worst. Nidalees cougar form is ludicrous and lets not even get started on what Jayce does. Zoes kit isnt overloaded. Her W is literally the only possible problem at all, and even then its mainly the random drops from minions. Also Im not sure why you linked that clip because it literally disproves your point. The poster was right. Qt fucked up really bad in that clip. Except every time Yasuo dashes, thats a free hit with an ability of your choice. If you cant hit him with abilities, you simply suck. And he is at a disadvantage to a mage. However, he doesnt autolose thanks to those tools, because that would be idiotic. He doesnt lack counterplay at all.
: <Removed by Moderation> So 1st I doubt that players would be aware of a change before the design director and lead game designer talk about the purposes of the change. I don't think it can happen anymore you don't have proof of the logarithms because we just don't know the exact crit equation also "we cant say exactly due to the logarithmic nature" this is wrong we know how logarithms behave so if we knew the equation we would know exactly the probability and even more knowing the equations behind the randomness we would determine with absolute certainty which autos will crit or not it has nothing to do with logarithms just the fact we don't know the exact equation. To the one in the game both events were randoms, tho I have to give you that there was a lot of ifs so it was a bit strawmanny, but still those events were randoms because you don't know exactly what's happening in the mid laner's head or in the game's code. If you did they wouldn't be random anymore. Also to me LCS games are just another game just like my games or your blitz games if something happens extremely rarely but happens to have happened in an LCS game that doesn't make it worse also I don't think there was this bad luck protection in 2014, I really have a hard time finding any old ports about it, so the issue is resolved by the bad luck protection system, also you said it yourself "and if things go well" never count on everything going well you have to account for little unpredictable things such as crit. I rarely see IE on Kai'sa even back a few months when almost everyone took runaan's, IE was still not that used but okay if that's what you built whatever. You still pointed out things that were just wrong and a clear lack of knowledge and research and refuse to post links, if you posted one that absolutely proved your point sure but until then it's just a made up assumption based on the fact you don't like crit. Also critting on 6 out of 10 autos is 60% increase not 50% <Removed by Moderation>
And yet it happened. Who knows why. It is possible that Meddler simply worded it poorly (At that point it was definitely something that was going to happen in the long run, perhaps he meant to say that nothing was going to happen soon, as they did find a few downsides to Ashes system), but at that point, Crits future rework was already settled. Unfortunately, I dont. It was only one Rioter who explained it once, and that source appears to have been lost to time. However, we can also infer from the patch notes when it was introduced. It says "We have changed how critical strike and dodge chance work. You will now get fewer ‘lucky’ or ‘unlucky’ streaks where you get no critical hits/dodges in a row, or a lot of them in a row. Your average chance to get a crit is the same as before though – if you have a 50% crit rate, and you make 100 attacks, you’ll still crit about 50 times.". Notably, fewer of them, but nothing to completely prevent them. No, they still arent. A random event is one where if you were to repeat the experiment, you would get different results. Where there is no way to predict it. The other one is explicitely *about* predicting. You predict what the enemy does. You dont know it (unless you have vision), but you still have choices to make, and things to consider. The other one is strictly gambling. First, yes, pseudo-RNG existed back then. Its existed since 2011. Here are the patch notes: "http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=454375". Second, it wasnt just an LCS game. It was the deciding game 5 of the Summer NALCS finals. The most important game of the whole season. Decided purely by luck. Great, isnt it? And as we know, pseudo-RNG did nothing to stop it (it wouldnt, if pseudo-RNG would enforce crit that heavily, why even have crit in the first place). I already posted 2 links though. And references to things you can search yourself. You however have posted nothing. Or done any research. You havent even addressed that crits removal is stated by Riot to be coming. <Removed by Moderation>
: <Removed by Moderation> They did not test on ashe here's a port of Meddler on ashe "new" passive being a test "We do not have any plans at present to remove Crit or change how it fundamentally works for the game as a whole." <Removed by Moderation> It might be logarithmic I haven't found a post explaining in great details how the bad luck protection works but even if it is it's still so highly unlikely to happen that it doesn't affect skill expression for values high enough (I'd say around 30%) you can have a lucky crit with just glove or zeal and even then in extended fights it's not luck it's for the overwhelming majority of times just a flat 10% damage increase of your dps that both parties have to take into consideration (that can be called a skill btw anticipating the fact crit is something that can happen even with 10% chance) but past your 1st zeal item chances are reliable enough to completely erase randomness and make crit a predicable event. If you could link me the proof you seem to have (which I think is just made up but might eventually be true) sure but still doesn't change much of the reasoning. You say that randomness of crit is bad but that's subjective is worthless, the randomness of it creates skill in higher elo and is erased for higher values of crit chance to me it's good. If the fact that for people that don't take crit into consideration having a "lucky" crit erasing skill expression is very important to you then ye it's bad but it's all relative. Take both examples : 1st You know mid left but don't know if it's for bot or top and both you and your top lane are good targets do you take the risk of pushing and maybe getting ganked if he went for bot but getting a tower if he went for top or not? 2nd You just traded with the ennemy adc and you both have 10% crit and about 150hp one auto will not kill any of you but a crit would, in your entire trade no one got a crit so you know you are both on high crit chance due to bad luck protection do you take the risk of exchanging one more auto and hoping you crit and not him or you don't and go back? Both situations have 2 outcomes based on a factor that is random 1st it's another human being and his decision (he can bait, gank wherever he wants and even make the wrong descision so you can't be sure) 2nd is crit, what makes tanking your chances with crit worst than taking your chances with where your opponents are or not or any other decision that you may take where you're not sure 100% (like a fight when you're even your team might play it bad or the enemy might play it very well, you can also fuck up it happens) there is a lot of randomness everywhere in this game and it's a skill to know how to calculate the odds and act accordingly. <Removed by Moderation>
Yeah, funny thing that. See, he said that after Greg Street, AKA Ghost Crawler, had already said that there, in fact, were plans. And as it just so happens, at the time Greg Street was the Design Director of League, and Meddler the lead game designer. Or to put it simple, Meddler was his subordinate. What most likely happened is that he simply wasnt informed yet. <Removed by Moderation> Its unlikely to happen, but that doesnt matter. It can happen. It happens all the time. And no. It does not "erase randomness" (seriously what the fuck are you on about, do you really not understand how chance works?). I mean, youd imagine the fact that we had LCS games won by crit RNG before would be a dead giveaway, but you dont seem to even think about that. But just to get it more bluntly, while extreme results are rare, bad results are common. Lets say you have 30% crit chance, that arbitrary number you chose. Lets say in a fight you get 10 autos off. Critting on 6 means you got 50% damage from your 30% crit chance. And what are the odds? Well, we cant say exactly due to the logarithmic nature, but given that without that itd be 10%, its probably around 8%. Thats quite a lot. And the damage boost is pretty huge, given how much difference just having 4 more AD can be. Thats the problem. The randomness of crit doesnt create skill, what the fuck are you on about again. It devalues skill. The randomness isnt erased (please, just look up how statistics work, its not a subject I enjoy teaching much so Id rather not do that), and the randomness does matter. I mean, its won games in the LCS before. And no, its not subjective. Game design theory has been around for a while, and output randomness is something pretty universally recognized as a bad thing, among others by Riot. No, theyre not both random. The second is random. The first is not. The first has unknown information, and requires risk assessment and prediction, but its not random. The second is gambling. Youre not doing risk assessment (since you yourself created a scenario where your odds of success and failure are the same), youre just choosing between gambling, or playing it safe. <Removed by Moderation> Now, lets give you an example. Lets imagine its 2014, and youre C9 Sneaky. Youre playing against TSM, and in a crucial lategame teamfight, that will decide the game, its down to you and the enemy ADC, TSM Wildturtle, as to who wins the fight. Everything is going well, you have a health lead, and if things go well, you win the game. Oh but then it happens. You and Wildturtle both launch 3 attacks. You, playing corki, do consistent damage of course. The enemy Wildturtle is building crit, and has 50% crit chance. Now, if Wildturtle does not crit on all 3 (12.5% chance), you win. And then it happens. Wildturtle crits on all 3. You lose the fight, and the game. All because of Crit. Id dare say this is a better example, no? Kaisas standard build path is Stormrazor, Guinsoos, Runaans, IE. Or was, when I played her. Of course she goes crit. What are you talking about? <Removed by Moderation>
Krynnˉ (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Deneviel,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=72GEcB8O,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-22T09:10:39.772+0000) > > He collaborated in the rework. It was not totally reworked by him, also he stated that he didn&#x27;t liked the job since he couldn&#x27;t do what he wanted with WW. > > So i&#x27;m with the OT ... champ designed by CT should be banned by default in ranked CertainlyT isn't meant to design for League of Legends (on his own), he'd be really good at making bosses for MMORPG's, but his champions lack basic counterplay. So I guess he is out of luck.
No they dont? I mean CertainlyT gets way more hate than he deserves, but of all things to say, saying that his champs lack counterplay? His champs have a lot of counterplay. Hell, his most recent rework, Akali, increased counterplay by a ton (before you could not hit Akali with AoE in the shroud ever, and you couldnt stop her from killing you since she just pressed R on you 3 times. Now she has to aim stuff, kills you much slower, and you can dodge it). Zoe is straight up a skillshot mage so you can dodge that stuff. Darius can be kited like hell, Warwicks, well, Warwick, etc. etc.
: Ok so you are once again competely wrong "The core part of her passive is her attacks slowing" that is a pure lack of knowledge her old passive was exactly "If Ashe has not attacked in the last 3 seconds, she gains 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 Focus stacks per second. At 100 stacks, Ashe will Critical strike icon critically strike on her next basic attack. Thereafter, Focus stacks will reset to an amount equal to her critical strike chance." So it's like her new passive with crit interactions and everything they juste merged the passive with the Q and gave her a new Q so 1st few sentences already wrong. Then your assumption it was a test run is based on absolutely nothing but your opinion which is obviously irrelevant when presented with this amount of proof that you're not doing any kinds of research and have no knowledge about what you're talking about. "Its the exact same as the current system in fact" change potential burst into pure constant dps is not the same no you're completely oblivious to basic understanding of how this game's damage works. You can't it's not just unlikely there's a bad luck protection on crit that prevents you from attacking too many times without crit also not critting for 5 autos in a row with 90% (or critting 5 times in a row with 10% that'w the same probability) has a probability of 1 in 100000 when we take the bad luck protection (that also acts as a too much luck protection) it never happens ever you can test it, go into a game with 30% crit and auto 10000 times you should crit 3000 times and never have big strikes of both crit and non crit thanks to the bad luck protection. It just doesn't happen because riot removed almost all randomness from crit already. I have proven you were wrong and that your opinion is flawed and irrelevant due to you not doing any kinds of advanced works to support you opinions until then you have no value. <Removed by Moderation>
Right, the part that you missed, that itty bitty detail, was that her old passive was entirely useless, and in fact, as a result, most people considered Q to be her passive. And again, the core part of her current passive is the slowing. The fact that crits are altered for her is merely a bonus. What youre trying to argue is that the equivalent to Kalistas passive thing where her attacks cant be cancelled is the core of her passive. Actually, they did mention that they were trying it out back then. But you know. Why check? Why do research that the other guy clearly has done, when you can just lie and say that he hasnt and you have. Of course, who needs the truth, after all. <Removed by Moderation>Crit currently is not "potential burst". Its sustained, constant DPS. The fact that it sometimes burst is a problem they want to fix. Why do you think it is that they changed crit itemization to discourage buying crit during the laning phase? Oh but that would require you to have played ADC to understand. And again, you talk about a system you dont understand. Here is the deal. This "Bad luck protection", or Pseudo-RNG as its often (mistakenly called), is not linear. Its logarithmic. One of the key aspects is this: it *never* causes your crit chance to become 0% or 100%. It constantly gets closer, but its never 0. You could test it. Go for 1000000 autos with 90% crit chance, and I guarantee you, you will get a 5 streak without crit. But hey, why do that. Why test or do research about a system oyu clearly dont have a clue about (as evident by you writing "because riot removed almost all randomness from crit already."<Removed by Moderation> <Removed by Moderation> Crit is random. The "pseudo-RNG", more accurately dynamic RNG, works logarithmically. Every time you dont crit, the chance increases. The first time, it increases by a bit more than the second time, which then increases a bit more than the third time. Notably, it never hits 1000. Same with the other way around. It never hits 0. Well, unless the number goes so low the computer rounds down? I dont actually know how they handle that. <removed by Moderation> It means that you have output randomness. Where your entire plan, your entire gameplay, hinges on getting lucky. It ruins strategies, it devalues skill, and most importantly, it feels really bad. Riot even have made an entire video on input vs output randomness (you should watch that) explaining why output randomness is bad. So bad in fact, that Riot have already said crit will be reworked. Hence why youre alone in your belief that crit is totally fine. Now, how the rework is going to happen is unclear. They tested it with Ashe, but from what Ghostcrawler has said, that has had some downsides, so theyre looking at alternatives. Who knows what that alternative will be, but it will happen. And of course, you finish it off with a boldfaced lie. I mean, you couldve done actual research and seen that in the preseason, my most played champ was Kaisa (notably, uses crit), and the fact that I played a fair amount of ADC. You couldve also realized that that was my smurf, and that my main account has even more ADCs (primarily twitch). But no. Rather, you lie. <Removed by Moderation> And of course, accept that Crits days are numbered. https://askghostcrawler.tumblr.com/post/164533783183/in-your-first-dev-diary-on-variance-in-league#notes
: That is the single worst idea I've seen so far 1st because it makes ashe passive basline for all so new passive for her or she's useless, and because that's not the intended mechanic at all and also it would be either useless or beyond broken imagine each auto being a +30% damage you would lose all burst from harass and gain insane reliability in team fight. So either your poke/harass and other times where you can only auto a few times is too low or you're way to powerful in figths either way not sustainable and much worse than anything I've seen yet. Also you say with 50% crit you can "easily" go 8 autos without crit in a row, it's just completely wrong let's do a bit of very very basic math that you apparently cannot grasp. the probability of not crittin is 50% let's assume you don't get the bad luck protection and it's completely random and unchanged depending on last roll 50% chance = 1/2 so not critting for 2 times in a row is (1/2)*(1/2) = 1/2² = 1/4 = 25% now the probability of not critting for n times in a row is 1/2^n so for n = 8 we have 1/2^8 = 1/256 = 0.00390625 ~ 3.9% chance You have a ~ 4% chance of attacking 8 times and not critting a single time and that's not even counting the bad luck protection on crits Now let's say that the 4% chance is right for it to happen once you have to have 25 time a series of 8 auto attacks in a row (on average it can happen at the 1st series but very very unlikely) 25*8=200 so you need to auto attack about 200 times with 50% crit chance for it to happen (again on average) let's say that each auto deals on average 150 damage in the mid game (both crits and non crits and mid game is where you would have 50% crit) 150*200 = 30000 damage so you would deal on average 30K damage before it has a realistic chance to have occurred once it's the damage you deal in the entire game so not likely to happen in a single game. And that's counting an unrealistic %age of crit, 60% is the closest we can archive doing all the calculations we have a 0.65% chance of that happening (from 4% to 0.65% with only a 10% chance increase I know it's called exponential google it) You are just wrong and opinionated your ideas are irrelevant because based on nothing do some research say something that makes sense please.
First of all, you do know Ashe didnt always have this passive, right? The core part of her passive is her attacks slowing, not the crit thing. The crit thing was (presumably) a test run of removing the RNG. And no, this is intended. Riot have been very clear about the fact that random crits will be removed for good. Its really bad for the game. And no, its neither. Its the exact same as the current system in fact. Except, without the possibility of critting 5 times with 10%, or 0 out of 5 times with 90%. Or, more accurately, unlike Crit its perfectly balanced. Its strictly superior. You can. Its not likely, but its easily possible. You seem to have misread. Maybe check if youre reading correctly before going on a long rant about something that is obvious. Im sorry, but you are the one who is wrong and opinionated. Let me put this as bluntly as possible. Crit being random means all outcomes involve crit are tained by randomness. This reduces skill, and promotes luck. Making it extremely terrible and unhealthy for the game. Riot is aware of all of that. They have openly admitted all of that. And they have promised that crit will lose its RNG entirely in the future. You wont be able to stop that. Crit will be deterministic. So good luck with being wrong.
: So you mean remove crit? Because by definition crit is randomness, it's a CHANCE to deal twice de damage. And it's not that random since they made the chance increase a lot each time you don't crit so with 50% chance you're pretty much guaranteed to crit every other auto
No, just change it to be like Ashes passive. You can change the name if it bothers you, but making it non-random is crucial (and going to happen, according to Riot). And no, its still extremely random. It only changes the odds slightly, but with 50% chance you still can easily crit 8 times in a row, or fail to crit 8 times in a row.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations
If youre doing a larger bit of work on crit itemization, why not use that opportunity to finally completely remove the RNG out of it? Weve been told that that would happen in the long run anyway (due to it being the very unhealthy output randomness, rather than the preferrable input randomness), and this just seems like a good time to fix that whole mess.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 30
Any chance the the work on crit items includes the removal of their RNG (as it has been rumoured is planned in the long run)? I feel like as long as that randomness exists, Marksmen will feel bad to play against when theyre truly strong, and also makes the laning phase feel worse as it becomes a coinflip at times.
Kadexe (EUW)
: Vi Rework Brainstorm
Honestly, much easier to do it. Just take her ult and get rid of it. Delete it, delete the code, and add a sign somewhere that says "when designing a champion, always ensure there is counterplay that doesnt revolve on one very specific item half the champions cant even use". Then give her a new ult with inherent counterplay. Then you can buff her to your liking, instead of having to give her the poppy treatment of "this design is so unbelievably bad and unfun that we have to keep her unviable forever without any debate or question".

Generic Ninja

Level 103 (EUW)
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