: Responding to different sections in line: > [{quoted}](name=Tormentula,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MQob4lFt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-27T20:15:43.571+0000) > ugh I really don't like that change at all... Sorry about that. It's a bit expected that the change is contentious and won't fit all jungle playstyles. The aim of making junglers interact with each other has been debated at great length. On the one hand, not all of the JvJ interactions feel particularly rich (you get to that below in more length). On the other, encouraging more PvP and success based on how you play around other champions seems like a big win to me. Right now that PvP primarily comes at the cost of heavily modifying the lane phase of one or a few laners. The hope here is that the JvJ interaction has some nuance and tension that is closer to the champ v. champ interactions in lane than it is to a PvE experience. And at the same time, laners get to have more meaningful match-ups against each other because the path to success of 'camp one lane' isn't always optimal. > Its going to feel super snowbally/coinflippy with that scuttle crab, meaning you can't plan ahead on what pathing you'll take because you may or may not be getting scuttle level 2. Not to mention first to get scuttle (which again, is going to depend on which camp start you coinflip to) is going to give one player a lead that the other player won't have the resources to catch up with (like another scuttle to go for..). I like to gameplan at loading screen on which lane I'd be better off assisting, and with this change its instead going to be planning around "ok if i somehow manage to get this scuttle then I can outpressure their jg... if". This also makes invading like the level 2 wolves cheese all the more toxic and uncounterable as that basically gives them a camp, your flash, and their scuttle pretty much free early levels. Planning ahead point: We are asking you to somewhat reevaluate your plans/pathing as the game goes on. That's an intended benefit of the system that will cause some friction. Being able to plan out your first five minutes of pathing in the loading screen leads to a rather stale gameplay experience. Not trivializing your point, as it's probably the main negative point of feedback I've received throughout testing this: jungle players highly value setting up a plan for the game in advance. Then we kind of modify our formula based on our success and eventually get to a few standard game plans that work. This skill test is going to be diminished, hopefully in favor of skill tests of reactive planning and how to interact with or avoid the enemy jungler, as you see fit. > IMO you shouldn't do the random 1 scuttle on the map, that just limits playstyles and makes things was more complicated. Keep both scuttles with the change, IMO that's fine, but contesting one RNG scuttle (or even non-rng) just seems unhealthy and unfun and less skill expressive and more "what champ gets this fastest" into the slipperly slope of "nerf early junglers but wait tanks are faster clearers, w.e we'll leave them alone!" We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't find the contesting over early Scuttle less fun and skill expressive than the current jungle meta. It certainly creates some swings because there's a battle over resources. Think that's more interesting than eking out a small creep lead due to slightly more optimal pathing. > If you wanted to fix the jungle, you should've just mass nerfed a lot of junglers to be strong/weak depending on what their clear strengths are. Example: Is WW an early game champ? I don't know.. he ganks better than all early junglers, he power spikes mid game better then them, he face tanks and still chunks everybody late game.. and he has the healthiest clear in the game to the point of not needing to start pots. I think its fine if a champ for early ganking is early gankiing.. but right now it feels like a lot of champs that play for late game are monsters early game with how healthy and fast they clear, which was previously a weakness of theirs. My original iterations looked kind of like this: I slowed down and made a lot of junglers less healthy early on. There were some benefits: laners felt less pressure. The downside was a lot of junglers returned to PvE as much as possible. So my aim shifted from dramatically slowing them down to instead reducing some of their early spike strength compared to laners and giving them outlets to interact with the other jungler. Then let them grow a lead or deficit more relevant and related to their counterpart. On the Warwick point: he's pretty solidly an early game jungler. He's arguably been overtuned for awhile so he maintains that strength later into the game than he probably should. The constant pressure from junglers isn't really specific to just a handful of junglers, though: it's a pretty standard strategy from most. > I liked when early game junglers camped and their weakness was falling behind later but if they got ahead they could carry the early game for a team advantage... now tanks do that but better, more reliably, and faster without falling off. So basically this is an unchanged problem with these changes and overall the jungle role gets shittier to play. The hope is that early game junglers can flex their muscles in a fashion that's not camping a lane. > ..Or do the simple "delay first camp spawn" instead of this scuttle rework.. or make camps actually respawn faster so there's something else for us to do beside sit in one lane and hope taxing keeps us early game junglers from falling off a building while their tank just naturally has double our pressure and double our CS I don't want to encourage farm-to-six junglers, which I fear faster respawn timers would do. More downtime early game for a jungler sounds pretty painful. Well, rather, can say it is since we tested versions like that. As per the tank pressure I don't have anything too meaningful to contribute. I disagree on how skewed in their favor this current system/balance is. > Oh and how will this work: {{champion:203}} Riot Wrekz is working on some small QoL work for her. We'll be paying close attention to her and other outliers to see if they need additional assistance.
So you're saying that you are making jungle a lane wether we like it or not ? Okay watch it become the new toplane where no one plays it, being ruled by 2,3 lane bully champs the rest will run around with 2 lvls down on laner being cc and ward bots like supports.
: Understood. Think we can focus too much on that as developers. We want to give players different experiences game to game so when pathing becomes stale or solved it's very appealing to fix it. Will say that it is one of the lesser goals of these particular changes: we don't want to you vary your path just for variety's sake. We want to encourage it because we believe the new interactions will be more rich and ultimately fulfilling than the current jungle skill tests.
But intoducing rng and clear favouritism to duel early game bullies is an extermy toxic mechanism that will push utility and mid game junglers out of the meta at any decent elo. Getting destroyed by a xin or ww as Eve or rengar lvl2 because of contesting scuttle is not fun nor interactive to play

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